Deep Dive Books
"The Age of Surveillance Capitalism" by Shoshana Zuboff
All right, ready to dive in. We're tackling Shoshana Zuboff's the age of surveillance capitalism today. And let me tell ya, it's a wild ride. - Yeah, it's not exactly light reading, is it? - It's definitely not. But it's important, right? Like we're not just talking about, oh, Facebook knows the kind of shoes I like. - Yeah. - This is like next level stuff. - Absolutely. Zuboff's arguing this is a whole new system of power, not just like privacy violations here and there, you know? - Yeah, exactly. And it's built on this idea of, get this, digital exhaust. - Digital exhaust. - Right, so think about all those little things we do online every single day. Every Google search, every article we click, every like, every scroll, that's the exhaust. - Okay, I kind of see where you're going with this. - And Zuboff says, that's the gold mine. That's what these surveillance capitalists are really after. - And the thing is like Google, they tried to downplay it all early on. Remember when they were like, oh, we don't want to be an advertising company. - And now look at them. It's almost like they stumbled on this gold mine without even realizing it was there. - Total accident, yeah, right. - But once they saw the value of that digital exhaust, game over, everything changed. - And it's funny, you know, you're saying he's a whole new system and it made me think, Zuboff actually compares the surveillance capitalists to get this, the robber barons of the Gilded Age, like Rockefeller and those guys. - Wow, that's a pretty bold comparison. - Right, but when she lays it out, it actually makes sense. They're both after the same thing. - Which is bad. - Power, like think about Rockefeller with his oil, right? They were claiming this new territory, no rules, just grabbing as much as they could. - And amassing huge amounts of wealth and power along the way. - Exactly, and using like really nice sounding language to cover it all up. Like back then, it was all survival of the fittest, but really it was just crushing the competition. - Right, and now it's all over, we're connecting the world and making your life easier. While they're like vacuuming up all our data. - See, that's where the digital exhaust metaphor really clicks because we don't even see it happening most of the time, right? - And this is where it gets really scary because Zuboff talks about this dispossession cycle. - Disposition cycle, okay, now I'm really intrigued. - So it's like four stages and they all kind of blur it together, but it basically explains how we get sucked into this system. - Okay, I'm listening, hit me with stage one. - All right, so it starts with what she calls incursion. That's when they introduce something new, right? Some cool new feature app and it's all like shiny and exciting. - Free trial, period. - Exactly, think Google Street View. Remember when that first came out? People freaked out. - Oh yeah, total privacy invasion? - Right, but Google, they just waited it out. - Yeah. - People got used to it, fast forward, and now those cameras are everywhere. - Why don't we don't even notice them anymore? - Exactly, and that's stage two, habituation. We get so used to something, even if it freaked us out at first, that it just becomes normal. - It's like that frog in the boiling water, right? - Exactly, and then comes adaptation. Like there might be some pushbacks, some lawsuits, maybe. - But they always find a way. - Always, tweaking the privacy policy here, giving us a little control there, just enough to keep us hooked. - Because we're already used to the surface and we don't want to lose it. - Hook, line, and sinker. And just when you think you've got it figured out, bam, they hit you with redirection. - Redirection, what's that? - Basically finding even sneakier ways to collect even more data. - Like they're always one step ahead. - Always. - So what's a concrete example of redirection? Give me something real. - Okay, so think about Android phones. Millions of people use them. Google collect tons of data from those phones. Officially, it's to improve user experience, but that data also goes straight into their advertising machine. - So they're not just suggesting products anymore. - Oh, it's way beyond that. We're talking about building these super detailed profiles of who we are, what we want, what makes us tick. - And using that to influence our behavior. - Like we're lab rats in their giant digital experiment. - That's one way to put it. And it's not just our behavior as consumers. It's like our whole lives, right? Zuboff calls it the erosion of our, what was it? Ah, yeah, the right to the future tense. - Yeah, that's a powerful way to put it because it's not just that they're watching us, right? It's that they're using that information to try and predict and even control our future. - Like minority report style. - Kind of, yeah, but instead of pre-crime units, it's algorithms deciding who gets the loan, who gets the job interview, maybe even who gets the date. - It's like that black mirror episode, nose dive, where everyone's raiding each other all the time, except it's actually happening. - Exactly, and it's all based on this idea of the uncontract. - The uncontract, okay, now you've officially lost me. - So, remember how we were talking about, like, how the robber barons operated outside the rules? - Yeah, no rules, just grab and go. - Great, well, the uncontract is kind of like that, but instead of breaking the rules, they're just ignoring the whole idea of a contract. - So, no more fine print. - No, this is bigger than that. It's like, normally when we interact, whether it's buying something or applying for a job, there's at least a pretense of a contract, right? - Like both sides agree to certain terms, but with the uncontract, it's like, we'll take your data and we'll do whatever we want with it, and oh, by the way, you already agreed to it. - But I didn't agree to that. - Exactly, but they're counting on us not reading the 50 page privacy policy or just clicking agree without thinking. - Mm, so what can we do about it? - That's the million dollar question. - Seriously, like, this is getting kind of heavy, you know? - Yeah, it's heavy stuff for sure. - And Zuboff doesn't really offer any easy answers. - Of course not, if it were easy, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But seriously, is there any hope? - Well, she talks about the importance of fighting back, of demanding better from our governments and from these tech companies. - Easier said than done though, right? - Absolutely, but it starts with understanding what's at stake. - Which is? - Our freedom, our autonomy, our right to shape our own futures. - It's like that line from the matrix, right? You have to fight for your right to choose. - Exactly, we can't just sit back and let these algorithms decide our fate. - So we need to wake up, right? Like, Neo and that goopod. - Something like that, yeah, we need to wake up and realize what's happening before it's too late. - And then, what do we do after we wake up? - Well, that's where things get really interesting. - So where do we go from here? Is this like, the end of the world as we know it? - Well, Zuboff doesn't think so, but she's definitely ringing the alarm bells, you know? - Yeah, I mean, it's easy to get all doom and gloom about this stuff. - Absolutely, but she also talks about how this isn't inevitable, like, we still have a chance to fight back. - Okay, so how do we do that? Give me some hope here. - Well, she says it starts with recognizing the problem, right? Like understanding what instrumentarian power really is. - Instrumentarian power, that sounds kind of ominous. What is that exactly? - It's like, think about how Orwell described totalitarianism, right? - Big brother, thought police, the whole nine yards. - Right, but Zuboff says what we're dealing with now is it's subtler than that. - So less jack boots, more like velvet gloves. - Exactly, it's control through prediction and manipulation, not outright force. - Okay, that makes sense, but it's still creepy, right? Like, they're still trying to control us just in a different way. - Right, and that's where this idea of the hive comes in. - A hive, like bees. - Exactly, it's like, we're all just little worker bees following the queen's orders, except the queen is. - The algorithm. - Bingo! The algorithm tells us what to like, what to buy, who to be friends with. - And we just go along with it because, well, everyone else is doing it. - Right, it's all about conformity, about fitting in. - So, what can we do? If the algorithms are in control, are we just like, screwed? - No, I don't think so. Zuboff talks about the importance of awareness, of education, the more we understand how these systems work, the better equipped we are to resist them. - Okay, so knowledge is power. - Exactly, and then we need to start demanding better from our governments, from these tech companies. - Like, what kind of things? - Stronger privacy laws, more transparency, real accountability. - So, it's not just about individual choices, like deleting Facebook or whatever. - It's bigger than that, this is a societal issue. We need collective action, systemic change. - Wow, okay, so it's a fight, not just like, a tweak to our settings. - Exactly, but it's a fight worth fighting, because what's at stake is our freedom, our autonomy, our right to think for ourselves. - Yeah, that's worth fighting for. - Absolutely, and remember that line from the book, if industrial civilization may cost us the earth, will an information civilization shaped by surveillance capitalism cost us our humanity? - That really makes you think, huh? - It does, it makes you think about what kind of future we wanna create, what role we're gonna play in shaping that future. - Well, I know about you, but I, for one, am not ready to hand over my humanity to some algorithm. - Me neither. - So what do you say, listeners? Are you with us? Let's get out there and take back our digital lives. That's it for this deep dive. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time.