My name is Lauren Michaels, I'm the producer of Saturday Night. The whole night? Yeah, the whole night. Based on the insane true story of the first time Saturday night went live. You ordered a llama? Yeah, we all decided it was much funnier than a donkey. Saturday night, rated R, now playing exclusively in theaters. Welcome back to another edition of the Disney Dish podcast with Jim Hill. It's me, Lantesta, and this is our show for the week of Shpers' Day, September 9th, 2024, on the show today, news, and in listener questions, we prove Einstein's static universe theory wrong without resorting to gimmicks like intergalactic redshift, and a new universal survey obsessed with dragons. Then in our main segment, Jim continues the history of Disney's big thunder mountain railroad. Let's get started by bringing in the man who knows that ibuprofen comes in two shapes, hot dogs, and hamburgers. It's Mr. Jim Hill. Jim, how's it going? Well, wait, look, there's a reason they call it comfort food, okay? Exactly. Look, some of us self-medicate by opening the refrigerator. That's why whenever I feel stressed, I just follow the advice of the golden girls and go eat a slice of cheesecake. Speaking of cheese... The other medical professionals. Anybody else will be barked as well, BMD right there. Yeah, exactly. The Surgeon General, Sophia Patrolo. Now, speaking of which, Hyperion Avenue, that's one of Disney's publishing arms, will be publishing the first novel in their all-new Golden Girls Cozy Mystery Series. Next year, by the way, on April 25, 2025, and what's the title of the book, Len? Death by Cheesecake. So, I mean, again, for me, that sounds like a great way to go. Jim, I think we should dedicate an entire podcast just to reading this book. There we go. If ever we're going to start the Disney dish book club, it's now. Okay, that works. All right, Jim, let's do a quick shout-out to our subscribers. Thanks to everyone who subscribes to the show over at patreon.com/JimhillMedia, including Martin Lewisin. Hey, Martin! Donna Costell, Sarah Butterfly, Martha Morgan, Michael Beck, and Zach Labry. Jim, these are the Disney musicians who will be performing at the Hollywood Brown Derby's 2024 Jazzy Nights events, starting November 4th. Songs include the unreleased Miles Davis demo version of a grandma got run over by a reindeer, a John Coltrane inspired version of Do They Know It's Christmas, and the entire Charlie Brown soundtrack, exactly as God and Vince Coraldi, wrote it. True story. The unreleased Miles Davis version of grandma got run over by a feet deer. That I want to hear. I'm not a trumpet. On to the news. Folks, the news is sponsored by touringplanes.com. Touringplanes helps you save time and money at theme parks like Walt Disney World. Check us out at touringplanes.com. All right, every show should begin with a round of self-congratulations, Jim. But in this case, the congratulations go to our friend Steve over at wdwmagic.com. We were having breakfast with Steve back in the spring, and he casually mentioned that the Lightning McQueen show at Hollywood Studios was going to be replaced with a Villains theme show. And this week, Disney announced that a new Villains theme show was going to replace the Lightning McQueen Racing Academy show at Hollywood Studios. So congratulations to Steve over there. But Jim, Jim, we're looking at this saying this has to be a test for what's going to go in the Villains land, right? But again, I think what intrigues me about this, in fact, you and I were talking about this off air earlier this week, isn't the Lightning McQueen in the venue that used to have that upcharge Villains experience, the Village Club Villain, whatever it was where you had to pay to get in, and then you had a close encounter with, say, the Wicked Queen from Snow White, and who was seated there and her throne, or that sort of thing. So interesting that this is the space where this now this Villain show is going into. I mean, we knew that this was an expansion sort of black box theater, right, that could get manipulated to whatever they wanted. So this is an example of that, but you can't help but look at this and think, well, clearly, they're testing ideas for Magic Kingdom. And while we're talking about how awesome Steve is, we should note that Steve casually mentioned that it might be another entertainment shoot a drop over at Hollywood Studios for 2025. So we'll see what that is. Also, Jim, the other big piece of news is that the Magic Kingdom's Tron light cycle run is ditching. It's a virtual queue for a traditional standby queue starting today. Hey, I might actually get a chance to finally ride this thing. Wow. I'm kind of interested to see what this does to lines at Space Mountain. I don't think it's going to affect morning lines at Seven Dwarfs as much because Tron's more of a thrill ride. It's got a 48-inch height requirement versus 38 for Seven Dwarfs, so different demographics riding it. But still, it'd be interesting to see how this changes the traffic patterns early in the morning in the park. Okay, can't wait, can't wait. All right, on to surveys. An anonymous listener sent in this new universal Studios Hollywood survey with a super detailed question about adding a how to train your dragon attraction to the park. So let's go over the setup here. So the setup is this. Please read the how to train your dragon concept below. This time, really try to imagine yourself experiencing this new studio tour segment. So it's here for a tour segment, but go with me on this because they're going to ask questions about it as an attraction later on. Okay, as the trim approaches the how to train your dragon building, the tour guide tells guests that the filmmakers wanted to take us inside the process of animating the isle of Burke and the dragons. When they enter, the screen shows the bustling Viking village of Burke, but in black and white, as if it had just been drawn by an animator, suddenly hiccup and toothless appear inviting guests to join them on a dragon training adventure. The sound of the village and the dragon's roar fills the air, and the hand drawn animations begin to take on color and become more realistic. Just as the tram starts to move, guests feel like a rush of air and see a flash of light as they are transported into a fully animated world of dragons. All right, so then there's more you're in the dragging training arena and it goes on and on. Anyway, the question is this, using the information we've just provided, please evaluate the presence or absence of the following attributes. Do you think that this should have practical or physical effects too much just right not enough? Is it connected to Hollywood filmmaking? Too much just right not enough and so on. The question goes on. The next set of questions would be, how interested would you be in experience this, how to train your dragon as the following attraction types at Universal Studios? I would definitely want to experience this. I'd probably want to experience it. I might or might not experience it and so on. And the choices here are as an in-park special event, as a family-friendly ride, as a character meet and greet, or as a moving 3D motion simulator ride. Other options later on are roller coaster stage show, water ride, children's play area and so on. All right. Yeah, so how to train your dragon. And here's the interesting thing, Jim. We know that we have this coming to Epic Universe, right? We do, we do. But where this gets an interesting lens is Dean Dubois, who was one of the co-directors of the original How to Train Your Dragon film, and then went on to direct solo, the two follow-up films. He's actually directed a live action version of How to Train Your Dragon, which completed production, I want to say in Ireland recently, and will be released to theaters next year, June of 2025. So this is a franchise that Universal is definitely doubling down on. So obviously with the Isle of Burt going into Epic Universe and the film coming out into theaters next year. But they very specifically talk about in this pitch, a tram, and it being animated. So Len, this sounds like West Coast, Universal, not East Coast. Definitely. And in the last couple of days, we've been sent versions of this survey that ask the same types of questions, but for different movie franchises. So it's not just Isle of a, it's not just How to Train Your Dragon, it's a number of things. But Jim, I wanted to further the conversation that you just started about properties that Universal is investing in. Okay. And the reason for that is the very first question in this survey listed a bunch of movie franchises. So Jim, I'm going to introduce a new show segment, and we're going to call it, "Let's use our powers of deduction." We need to catch a mystery theme song here. So everyone listening, break out your hands, tooth jackets and smoking pipes, and start referring to the people next to you as Basel. The first question on the survey asks if you're familiar with a bunch of movie franchises. And a lot of those franchises include movies that have been released in the last five years, or have upcoming releases. So Despicable Me, which is out now, Twister and Twisters this year, Wicked, later this year. Jason Bourne, I think the last one was 2016, but didn't Matt Damon say he's working on a sixth script? I heard something of that effect, but yeah, okay. So Fast and Furious 2023, Oppenheimer 2023, how to train your dragon, we just talked about the Mummy, which was 2017 with Tom Cruise, Universal Classic Monsters, Back to the Future, and E.T. Okay, that's the list. Okay. So let's remove from that list, Jim, any franchise that either has an existing ride in a Universal park, or we know one is coming. So that would remove Despicable Me, Jason Bourne, Fast and Furious, how to train your dragon, the Mummy, Universal Classic Monsters, and E.T. So we're left with this, Twisters, Wicked, Oppenheimer, and Back to the Future. Okay, I'm not going to say that I would give blood to hear a Universal Creative pitch for a ride based on the movie Oppenheimer, because I have no idea where to even start there. So we're left with Twisters, Wicked, and Back to the Future. Twisters and Wicked are both films from this year. Back to the future is old enough to run for president. Jim, one of these things is not like the other, what's going on here? Do you want me to pretend like we're just going on to the next segment in the show? On to listener questions. Here we go. Lorenzo Pernetti asks this, "While Disney only experienced 10 years of theme park history, which was not a long time to gauge what attractions would work and which ones guests would adore, the park was a little bit of a mess and probably didn't hit its stride until a decade after his death. And he never even saw two of his greatest attractions, Pirates and Mansion." So the continuous quoting and misquoting Walt Disney in defense of always saying that Disney Parks and Not Museums is a little misguided. And just because the bean counters make a decision, it doesn't mean that it's the right one, because it's a change in direction. The company spent 300 to 500 million on the Star Cruiser and a botched Epcot makeover as well. So honestly, based on everything since Everest, do you trust them to make an attraction a home run? They seem to be getting on base with some infield errors. Okay, Lorenzo, tell me how you really feel. All right. I love this and I apologize for not getting this last week to show rid a little long, but all right. So a couple of points. Well, definitely had a hand in Mansion and Pirates. They were under development when he passed away. And using Lorenzo's baseball analogy, Galactic Star Cruiser was the highest rated thing we've ever surveyed. And Disney says the same thing. It was just a home run swing that missed. They can't all connect. And even if Star Cruiser is closed, you got to give Disney a ton of credit for trying something sort of the box. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to call that and miss. Okay, okay. And so, and so what are the questions that I had after reading Lorenzo's, you know, question was this, how many of the attractions that we love that came from the Walt era of the parks are classics? And in general, how many classic Disney attractions are there? And how many did Walt have input into? And I think for classic here, we have to include attractions like Hall of Presidents in a china tiki room, which are not in demand these days, but the mere fact that they've lived so long, and we're spectacular in their time, makes them classic. So here's what I think are the classics that Walt had input into. Jungle Cruise, Pirates, Peter Pan, Haunted Mansion, tiki room, Hall of Presidents, great moments with Mr. Lincoln, the monorail, the Matterhorn Bob sleds and its derivatives like Space Mountain, Carousel Progress, it's a small world in 20,000 leagues. Is there anything that you would you would add to that from the? No, that that is a good solid. I mean, one might argue that putting a castle at the end of Main Street. Right. And then actually, actually thought about Main Street itself as a thing, right? Yeah. Okay, fair. Okay. And then there are classics that Walt didn't have input into, Big Thunder Mountain, which we're going to talk about later on in the show. I would say Splash Mountain and Tiana's Bioadventure, Spaceship Earth, Soren, the American adventure, Kilimanjaro Sivaris, and Tower of Terror, right off the top. Then there could be more, right? Okay. And then there are the attractions that might be considered classics that Walt didn't have input into, and these are debatable. And Jim, I'm going to start off here with Horizons, World of Motion, a great movie ride. Yeah. This is like, this is like, it's not a first ballot, unanimous Hall of Fame election here, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. But what about things like Star Tours? Well, no, I would say flat out classic that that's an open for argument. I mean, from the moment you come around the turn, and there's R2D2 and C3PO standing on the Star Speed or 3000, you're in. Okay, fair. What about Buzz Light, your Space Ranger spin? Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're right through shooting gallery. I mean, yeah. I mean, Disney's first real foray into interactive. I would have to say yes. I would have to say classic. Yeah. I mean, just the way that you started the conversation, I'm like, well, if we're putting Peter Pan in there, why are we not putting Buzz in there? There we go. There we go. All right. Indiana Jones Adventure in Disneyland? Again, there used to be, if I could so find in doing the research for the Big Thunder story, I've been looking at a lot of the ads from the park from the '70s and '80s. And there was literally a campaign that they had for the park that would end with, and it can only happen at Disneyland. And let's face it, Indiana Jones Adventure could only happen at Disneyland. For the next three years. For the next three years. For the next three years. But whatever. Yeah. Okay. It can really only happen at Disney Park. All right. What about a rock and roller coaster? Somebody who is such a fan of Southern California, though, again, just in fact, the Hollywood Heritage Association just sent me a note to the effect of this. They're expanding the subway system out in LA, and they're about to do some work at Hollywood and Highland, and some historical buildings are about to go down. And that's what Southern California does. It tears just eats itself. I mean, I love, in fact, that's one of the things that I would talk you with Mr. Shul about his attraction. I love the part of the ride where you're on the California freeway because that's something I actually enjoy out there. So yes, this is the classic. You're the person that enjoys the California freeway experience. That's amazing. There we go. All right. I would say rise of the resistance will eventually be considered a classic. It's not right now because it's not old enough, but there were so many moments in that attraction that only Disney could pull off, which is why it kind of makes me sad. Like, for example, that wonderful moment from the first couple of months of the attraction where you were in that space, sort of doing the dance between the cannons that were firing and the fact that that's been disabled. I put that right in there with the eddy. It's just sort of like, that was cool. Bring it back. Yeah. In the same vein, a flight of passage. Like, well, that eventually be a Disney classic. One of the highest-rated things in the park, a constant demand from the moment it opened. It may not be our thing, but for the argue, it's not popular. No, no, no. And even as somebody who's really not a fan of the Avatar films, that's a great ride experience. I mean, once you get there, you don't want to actually get in the saddle, so to speak, but it's a great ride experience. And the last one, I think the one that's going to generate the most debate is test track. Test track, a classic attraction. I mean, it's been around for a while, but is that anyone's like, I'm going to go here first or second or third in Epcot. Is it anyone's top three? This may be one of those things where longevity is not helping it. But at the same time, when you remember the seminal moments of that attraction, remember the first time you're writing that and suddenly the back truck is in front of you, or for that matter, the first time you dumped out of the building and got to 60 miles an hour, and then made that bank curve and came around the building. I mean, that was pure adrenaline. I mean, yeah, is it repeatable? Yeah, but first time, great fun. Yeah, I'll note that of these attractions that were that are sort of on the line here, the ones that Disney has put in multiple parks would include rock and roller coaster, the Indiana Jones adventure, which is coming to Tropical America's Star Tours, rest of the resistance, Buzz Lightyear, Flight of Passage. Is Flight of Passage part of the Disneyland expansion or no? They have been, in fact, Mr. Schul and I were talking about this. It's interesting that when you look at what the avatar stuff that is supposedly going into DCA, it keys off of, what is it, the way of water, the second film? The second film, yeah, not the first film. And Mr. Schul was postulated that one of the reasons they may be doing that is, you know, down by the beach, you don't have to build floating islands. That's true. Yeah, water is way easier to fake. There we go. There we go. All right, and Testerack has been duplicated if you consider radiator springs, racers in DCA, a version of that. I would for that. Second cousin, I would go. Okay, so maybe, maybe so. All right, fair. Solid work here, Lynn. Solid work. Thanks. And then we have an email from Leslie Parkins and her husband Grant and Leslie writes, "My husband and I had two different takes on if and how there are sure lines after the recent Daz changes in Walt Disney World. My husband thinks if ride capacity is the same, having fewer people in the lightning link doesn't mean the standby line would move faster, since there would be more people in it. My take is if there are fewer Daz abusers, that means should our lines all around. Since they were inflating them, please end our debate and help us understand how and why the wait times are shorter independent of the cradle." All right, so Leslie, I'm about to tell you that you're right. So if you need a minute to write down the exact time in the show in which this happens to it, do it now. All right, to be fair to Grant, if everyone who was in the lightning lane before you got somehow moved over to the standby line ahead of you, your standby way would be exactly the same. That's because the number of people ahead of you wouldn't change, right? But as Edwin Hubble demonstrated and Leslie knows to be true, the universe isn't static. And by extension, neither are Disney lines. Here's why. People who arrive in the lightning lane after you get in the standby line will still get priority over you. But after cutting back on Daz abuse, there's just fewer of them. So your standby wait is less. So for example, suppose you're the third person in the standby line, and there are four people ahead of you in the lightning lane line. So there are six people ahead of you in line. The cast member admits five people at a time, the four people from the lightning lane, and one person from the standby line, which is the standard 80 to 20 ratio. So now there are zero people in the lightning lane line and two people in the standby line. And you're obviously the second person in line to ride. So you're going to get on the next ride vehicle, right? Okay. But at that moment, 99 people enter the lightning lane line. So cast members are trained to use a ratio of 99 to one when this happens. So now you're the 101st person in line, and you have to wait for 20 more ride vehicles to be filled before you ride. So your position in line has gotten worse, and the 99 people who arrived after you with the attraction are now ahead of you in line. And that can't happen in an attraction with just standby. So obviously you'd be better off if 50 of those 99 people who didn't get in the lightning lane and gotten the standby line, because they'd be behind you in the standby line, not ahead of you in the lightning lane line. And that's what's going on here, right? So if NASA ever names a space telescope after you Leslie, I expect to be invited to the launch party. That's all I'm saying. I just didn't appear for a moment. Is it okay to lend that as you were giving that explanation, I pictured you with with a black turtleneck wearing a suit code standing standing at a star field doing the whole Carl Sagan thing. I was a lovely. I think I think I've told you the story of how Neil deGrasse Tyson once put me into headlock. But that's what I was going through when I was doing this again. Like if he sneaks up on me again because of this, I think I'm going to be in trouble. Okay, okay. All right. All right. Last question from Julie Parr who says, "My son and I were listening together when you guys began discussing the if you had one day to do one park, what would it be question? My 11 year old guy who never lets on that he's listening, unless safety dance is involved, strenuously objected to the magic kingdom as your first choice, saying that's only for old people. There's nothing there except all of presidents. Epcot is definitely the best choice. Is the magic kingdom just for old people these days? Wait, am I old people? All right. So, this segment of the Disney dish is sponsored by AARP. AARP. When you're too old for social media and too young for life alert, AARP. By the way, Julie sent this email to the both of, and I literally wrote back to her and said, "Oh man, I hope Len picks this for this week." No, I can't wait. I cannot wait to hear what he says. All right, Julie, one day you're young and cool in the next year, mispronouncing Chapel Rowan and wondering why today's pop songs are only three minutes long as if Spotify started streaming vinyl 45s all of a sudden, right? I mean, you saw that as a point. The most recent movie franchise represented the magic kingdom is Princess and the Frog, which is older than your son, and the one before that was Tron, which came out in 1982, and an old bet is older than you, Julie. All right. Epcot's latest attractions are celebration in Kanto, Journey of Water inspired by Moana, and Guardians of the Galaxy. And I'm going to ignore Luminous because it's past my bedtime, if not your sons. All three of those came out in the last 11 years, so they're part of your son's generation. I mean, that would explain that, right? It would. It would. But in the note, I actually sent back to Julie again to hoping that you would respond to this. I wondered about the very thing her son proposed about these old movies that think about it since the live action version of Cinderella. You know, Disney has been taking its hand-drawn films and redoing them as live action films, CG films, or whatever you want to describe them. And you just have to wonder how much of this is being done for consumers just like her son to the effect of, "Oh, no, no, no. That's not an old movie. That's a new movie. That's a new version right here. I mean, just next year, we're going to get that new version of Lilo instead." And also the Snow White that Disney is pretending they didn't make. I remember, Jim, that came and went pretty quickly. What they do in some sort of promo, like, heavy promo event in the studios? And then it was like, "Nope, gone the next day." Yeah, I mean, that one's coming out in March. And again, I keep hearing from folks at the studio. It just has to not explode on impact. If it comes out, and it does okay over the weekend, Disney will quickly put it in the rear view. But that one has just been painful between what's been going on social media and all that. So it's just sort of like, "Let's just get past that one and then move on." Hey! All right, that was a great question, though. Yeah, so, you know, I look to the other parks, Animal Kingdom, you know, it's got inconto coming in. So, you know, the same thing there. But yeah, the Magic Kingdom has older franchises. I guess you could say it's the most special park. You know, it is the Hall of Fame park, right? I mean, it's what's interesting is the other thing it's important to always understand about the kingdom is it's the nostalgia park. I mean, at this point, three generations have gone there for family vacations. So you kind of have to go there when you're having your Walt Disney World vacation. But also worth noting that between what just happened with Splash Mountain, changing that to Princess and the Frog, what's about to happen with Tom Sawyer's Islands, switching that over to the Cars franchise. So many, look, you and I both are hearing the same thing, Len, where creative decisions that are being made at Imagineering right now aren't necessarily coming on the back of film grosses. They're coming out of info that's coming out of Disney plus. How many minutes are individual films being watched? And those are the the IPs that are coming into the parks. Yeah, and the interesting thing there is that there's not a ton of visibility to the public about those kind of data. Oh, no. So it's so and it makes the decisions a little more opaque. That's very true. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. But still super interesting. All right, folks, we're going to take a quick commercial break when we come back. Jim continues this history of Frontier Lane's Big Thunder Mountain. We'll be right back. Today's episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. I was recently at a family reunion where I'm not going to lie. I had trouble coming up with the names of some of my relatives. In fairness, it had been a couple of years since I had last seen a few of these folks, but even so, it was embarrassing. 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Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/DisneyDish. Again, that's RocketMoney.com/DisneyDish. RocketMoney.com/DisneyDish, we thank them for sponsoring today's show. Don't freak out, but Monster Tacos are back at Jack in the Box. Classic Monster Tacos are back with a crunchy, cheesy vengeance, and you can get two for three dollars, or try the new three-dollar Mummy Wrapped Monster Taco. Loaded with nacho cheese and bacon, wrapped in a soft flour tortilla. Kinda makes you wish all Mummies were this delicious, and cheesy. Order now at Jack in the Box. Alright, Jim, when we left off last week, we were talking about the worn attraction I said I would pay anything to revisit or to see for the first time, and that was mind-trained through nature's wonderland. Disneyland in Anaheim in January of '77, and again, to make room for the very first Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Now, that said, Lennon, I get your interest in enthusiasm for the mind-trained ride, but that had kind of a convoluted history at Disneyland. It debuted July 2nd, 1956, less than one year after the Walt's family fun park opened, and that was because we're being completely honest here. The three stage coaches that Walt had had built at considerable expense, by the way, for Disneyland back in '54 turned out to be, well, they were low capacity. They could only carry nine guests at a time. Wow, they were very slow to load. In fact, if you wanted to ride shotgun, which meant that you sat up top next to the driver, the guy who was driving that four-horse hitch, you literally had to climb up this rickety ladder that they put next to the stagecoach. And then, look, stagecoaches are top-heavy, so this Frontier Land attraction was prone to tipping over, and I'm just going to put this out there. If you Google Disneyland stagecoach accidents, you will see some interesting photos, all right? Okay. So, was that nine guests per stagecoach, or nine guests for all three stagecoaches combined? No, nine guests per stagecoach. Okay, so 27 people at a time. Yeah, but again, slow to load, slow to unload. So we're talking about like low hundreds of people an hour. Oh, if that. Okay, so anyway, all right, January of 1956, less than six months after Walt's family fun park opens. There's a meeting of the Disneyland Merchants Association, and by the way, those folks who operated the shops along Main Street, USA, places like Hollywood Maxwell's intimate apparel store and the Yale town block shop. Do you need to replace the deadbolt on your house? Did you forget about that? No, I just, I love, I love the scenery of the park's history. The notion of you can go out for the afternoon and enjoy Mr. Toad's wild ride, and then on the way out of the park, pick up a new Braun panties. So, anyway, back to January 56. All right, so at this time, a wall to explain to these folks, look, all horse-drawn vehicles in the Frontier Land area will be shut down for approximately two months to allow us to redesign and do some reconstruction in this area of the park. With the idea of increasing ride capacity, we're going to build a mountain in Frontier Land. This mountain, which guests will get to see from the rivers of America as they ride the Mark Twain, will be called Rainbow Mountain, and running through this mountain will be a new mine train ride. Now, this will feature six open cars pulled behind a faux engine, and in order to create the load on load space for this thing, the Frontier Land's current corral area and the blacksmith show is going to get pulled down. But this ride will be called the Rainbow Caverns, mine train, and will take people out to the Pated Desert, paralleling the route that the stagecoaches and the Conestoga wagons now follow. And then the train, however, it's finale to enter Rainbow Mountain, where as guests travel through Rainbow Cavern, they'll see the slagmides, slagtides, and multiple waterfalls of different color. Now, what's funny here, Len, is that Disneyland management went out of its way to make clear that the vehicle that was going to take guests on that trip through the caverns under Rainbow Mountain was a mine train, not a steam train. And that was because Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe Railroad, which was one of the country's biggest transport companies between 1859 and 1996. I can't believe you said that without singing it. Well, I'm sorry. Okay. Channeling my inner Judy Garland. Okay. Anyway, they're paying red law. Again, that's a Disneyland adjacent company that that Walt himself owned that operated the Parks Railroad and starting in '59, the Monorail. Anyway, Santa Fe is paying Disneyland a big bucks to sponsor the train. So again, Walt didn't want to do anything to accept a good folks at Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe. So he made a point of saying, what we're opening in Frontierland is a mine train. What goes around the berm is a steam train to entirely different attractions. Oh, okay. So anyway, this part of Frontierland shuts down spring 56. They put in 1700 feet of track. A third of a mile of track. Okay. Third of a mile of track. And just think about this, though. They announced it in January. It opens on July 2nd. I mean, I'm just amazed they got this thing in that fast. And also, early July, they rebrand. Well, on the hills of the mine train, which again, debuts under the name Rainbow Caverns Mine Train, Disneyland Stagecoach gets a new name. It's now the Rainbow Mountain Stagecoaches. And then the Disneyland's Pacmule Ride gets known as the Rainbow Ridge Pacmules. They kept the Pacmules. Well, yeah, well, because the Pacmules, well, look, they were crazy popular land. But again, very low capacity. I mean, when the park opened, they ran just to Pat. Well, by the way, if you're talking about a group of mules, I did my research here, Len. You have a variety of names to choose from. They are a pack, a span, a baron, a scurry, a string, or a rake of mules, which, okay, not as sexy as say, a blow to hippos, a flamboy, it's a flambigos or a murder cross. But you do what you can a string of mules is kind of visual. Let's go with that. There we go. All right. But again, this this attraction is so popular with guests that in May of 57, Walt actually goes out and buys an additional 25 mules. So now the herd pack, whatever, is up to 75 mules out back with with Owen Pope and Dolly. I'm amazed that he goes out and rustles up 25 more mules because number one, it's still a slow loading attraction. Number two, I mean, they're animals. They you've got to clean up after them. You've got to maintain them in ways that you don't for attractions. This is bizarre to me. Well, I just, but again, they were popular. So by adding those additional 25 mules, Len, and it was a 10 minute long experience. So what they could do is they could go from running two strings of mules per day to three, which moved it from miserable capacity to low capacity. So three a day, it's a 10 minute long ride, probably five minutes to load up. There we go. So you're getting through for an hour and you're talking about nine mules of 36 guests. But on the other hand, the people who got to ride it enjoyed it. So all right. So anyway, as the 1950s begin to wane, more to the point, Tomorrowland has now become home to the Matterhorn, the Monorail and the subs in the summer of '59. Walt now turns his eyes to Frontierland and has to admit that, okay, stagecoach, line and Frontierland kind of silgo wagons just aren't cutting it. They're still low capacity. What are the points, the route that they travel in this part of the park? Very valuable real estate. So September, '59, stagecoach and the kind of silgo wagons cease operation. And Walt then decides to take the route that they travel and that he uses it to extend the track of the rainbow cavern mine train by nearly 600 feet. Wow, by more than a third. There we go. And so that now becomes the mine train through Nature's Wonderland and in order to do this expansion land. So he spends a million and a half dollars, which that money is not only spent on a new track, it's spent on 204 mechanized creatures. What would you call these mechanized creatures, Jim? Well, that's kind of interesting because in the press release for the June 1960 opening of mine train through Nature's Wonderland, very first time that the company uses the phrase "audio animatronics." There you go. All right, three new sections wind up getting added to the mine train ride. We get Bear Country, we get Beaver Valley and the Olympic elk grove and then the painted desert actually now gets re-themed into the living desert, which is an acknowledgement of a true life adventure that Studio released. Jim, let me ask you this question. Has there ever been another example of Disney lengthening an existing ride? I mean, we know that the autopia has been cut multiple times. Yeah. And I'm not talking about like Toy Story Mania where they added a third track because it wasn't an extension of the existing tracks. Has Disney ever made a ride bigger? To say frozen ever after at Epcot, but only just. If you think about where you used to get off in the fishing village and then going into watching the the Norway film, I mean, the vehicle still had to continue on to the load area. So I want to say they by adding just a few feet to the track, they get in a couple of new show scenes or spaces for new show scenes. Okay, that's fair. But on this particular way, that's actually a change from one attraction to another. Have they ever, and I'll take that right? I mean, if that's the other example, that's fine. But has Disney ever taken an existing attraction kept the theme and made it bigger? Interesting. All right, let's do our research on that. Okay, cool, cool, cool. All right, here we go. All right. And speaking of what's getting back to the pack meals, they their name for them went from rainbow Ridge pack meals to pack meals through nature's wonderland. By the way, Len, the mules did not like the new mechanized creatures that had been at. Oh, we got to socialize. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So they would often buck just literally refused to move along the ride path or worse, get startled by a particular effect buck and the throw a guest off their backs. But I have a okay now back to nature's wonderland, the ride's been in operation for a few months. What we're about to talk about happened roughly around Labor Day 1960. Walt makes makes a visit to Disneyland rides the revamped version of this frontier land attraction gets off the ride and is frustrated. I mean, they got think about it. The guy over the past four years has poured $1.8 million into blessing of this part of the park. And when you think about mine train, soon, nature's wonderland occupy seven acres of his family fun park. And this is back in the day when when Disneyland is only 85 acres of the park itself. So nearly a tenth of your park is taken up by a ride you poured a lot of time and a lot of money into it. Yeah, this is going to get a lot of attention very, very soon. I can feel it. Yeah, I just he's just not happy. So he reaches out to Mark Davis in October of 1960 and effectively tells this this master animator, could you please go down to Disneyland and ride mine train through nature's wonderland and then tell me how we can make this attraction better. And what's interesting line is this is when Mark becomes an Imagineer. Oh, this is the origin story. This is the origin story. And what happens is Mark goes back to Walt and lays down just a series of ideas about how just by moving some figures, you can be better stage individual scenes or or new gags that the Imagineers could sprinkle throughout the ride. And and Walt so enjoys Mark's input that he moves him over from the animation suitor to wed where Davis then spends the next 17 years helping to create. In fact, the irony is you all have so many of the classic rides you listed in the front of the show. Mark had a hand in whether it's pirates, hotted mansion, tiki room, country bear. Yep. Okay, so I shared that story today because we now need to jump ahead 13 years. And the pack mules have packed it in in October of 73. By the way, I'm told they all went to good homes or or a farm up. Oh, what's living? Yeah, well, what's living at a farm upstairs. But what's kind of interesting is if actually if you read the Disneyland lines from this era, they actually offered the cast members the opportunity to buy a mule for $50 apiece. And as I understand it, some of them did in fact become much below family pets. But okay, if we now get back to those built in 1960 mechanical creatures along the track, they're starting to look creaky. Oh, and this is why Mark Davis is invited by by park management to to take another look at this frontier land attraction in kind of the way that Walt asked him back in October of 1960. Now, wed management and the folks in charge of Disney. They're asking Mark, are there ways that we can make mind train through nations one to let a more enjoyable show for team park goers in the mid 1970s? And I want to stress here that when had done this with other Disneyland attractions, the dinner fact market worked on, I mean, case in point, the the refresh of that theme parks jungle cruise that was begun in late 1975 and then opened in the spring of 76, seven new scenes, 31 new audio animatronic characters, all of which were designed by Mark Davis. So Mark goes over, brides the ride a bunch of times, walks the track in the early morning when the park isn't open, and he comes back in goes off and design stuff in November, December of 74. And he designs a series of new scenes for this frontier land attraction with a particular focus on making the mind trains finale. Again, remember, that was when the train rode into rainbow caverns and got to make this a little more dramatic, a little more exciting. So for that section of ride track, Mark proposed a new scenario where suddenly there's a fierce thunder and lightning storm happening just outside. And so as the train is passing through rainbow mountain, you're seeing things like frightened owls and startled nests of rattlesnakes and evidently the the the the storm has woken up a hibernating bear who's really not happy with you. This this kind of sounds like the the idea got transferred over to maelstrom later on. But okay. Okay, so but but here's the thing. Wed management looks at everything that that Mark has proposed and passes. Ooh, because well, here's the thing, Disneyland is facing increasing competition in the Southern California market mid 1970s. I mean, just up the road, Knott'sbury Farm is installing corkscrew. That's the first modern inverting coaster that'll begin carrying guests in 1975. And you can't forget about magic mountain open may of of 71 and has an assortment of steel coasters. And it's just to management's way of thinking Disneyland, if it's going to remain competitive, it has to start investing in thrill rides and fast. So this is why ground is broken a Disneyland's version of space mountain just months after the Walt Disney World version of this indoor coaster. First opens in Florida January of 75. More to the point this is why in this very same window of time, cast members who work at frontier lands, mine train through nature's wonderland begin to hear that this attraction is not long for this world that the imagineers have decided that this spot in the park will soon be home to the wildest ride in the wilderness. Okay, now next time, Len, we're going to talk about how Walt Disney Productions announced in February of 1977, and you're going to love this lint just like with Space Mountain Galaxy's Edge and China's Bayou Adventure that they would be building two big Thunder Mountains at the exact same time, one opening on the East Coast, one opening of the West Coast, and they were both supposed to be completed by the summer of 1979, and not to give away the end, but just like with Tiana and Galaxy's Edge, that didn't happen. But I'm sure you're going to tell us about why too. There we go. There we go. Oh, fantastic. Oh, this is that this story went in a direction I didn't expect. Well, that's a thing. It's just that as I was drilling down into it. I mean, there are so many weird, I mean, again, that very appropriate for talking about Big Thunder Mountain, lots of weird twists and turns and more story to come. I love it. And the one thing I'll add to this is there is a Mickey Mouse short, one of the new ones, that is dedicated to the mind train through nature. Yes, yes, and it's lovely. It really is. Yeah. Yeah, which tells you that even though the attraction has been long gone, it still holds a place in the imagination of theme park fans. That's true. All right, folks, that's going to do it for the show today. You can help support our show by subscribing over to patreon.com/gmailmedia, where we're posting exclusive shows every week. Our most recent show with Imagineer Jim Scholl tells the story of how Dumbo ended up in the Disney theme parks. You can find more of Jim at jimhillmedia.com and more of me, Len@toringplans.com. We're produced spectacularly by Eric Chrissy and David Gray, who will be bringing their food truck concept "11s"s featuring all-day breakfast items, such as spicy elk sausage biscuits, the sausage juice vegan. It's just made by an elk that's known for profanity. You know how the kitchen staff are. To the second annual Taste of Wyoming Festival on Saturday, October 5, 2024 at the Carbon County Fairgrounds in beautiful downtown Rollins, Wyoming. While Eric and David are doing that, please go on to iTunes and write our show until it's what you'd like to hear next. For Jim, this is Len. We'll see you on the next show.
