(upbeat music) - Welcome to Rise Smile Films, the film review podcast that mixes cinema with fine spirits. Journey with us as we encounter new, old, and strange films with the occasional dabble into sports and music. Proceed with caution as these podcasts feature spoilers and some mature language. This is Matt, and this is Jesse. - Today on TAP we have Rosemary's Baby, starring Mia Farrow, John Cassavetes, Ruth Gordon, Sydney Blackmer, Maurice Evans, and Ralph Bellamy, based on the book by Ira Levin and written and directed by Roman Polanski. Welcome back to Rise Smile Films, it's time to wrap up our heavy hitters, horror cast, and it's been a doozy so far, and in terms of content, excitement and length runtime. - Yeah, the last two episodes will push you dang near over six hours almost. Evil Dead, Frankenstein, and now a big one that we've talked a lot about on the show just, omnisciently, Rosemary's Baby. This is a big one from 1968. It's on a lot of best of horror lists, that's kind of how I came to it, on that same Bravo's 100 Scariest Movie Moments. This film was on there, the conception scene, is what I'll call it. But yeah, I think this film has its legacy. I mean, certainly the people involved with making it. You've heard of them, right? Famously and infamously. Everyone I think knows the poster, right? So yeah, I think this is gonna be a really interesting discussion. There's a lot of thematically, just some interesting stuff here. I think the cast certainly is interesting. The setting, that time period that you and I just really love that '67 to '73, just like we're really gonna go for it and like really do it, 'cause the haze isn't here to stop us. - Yeah. - What was your first exposure to this film? Was this on TV? I mean, this would be an interesting rental, 'cause it is a bit older, right? - My video store is brought at home one afternoon or one evening, and I used to bring home a movie every Thursday night. - Yeah. - 'Cause we would get 'em for free. So this was one of 'em, I'd heard about this, and I just always thought Rosemary's Baby knew a little bit about it. - Yeah. - Certainly in the horror space, watch it, I don't know, it's probably like 2019, 2018, somewhere in there. - Yeah. - I think this was kind of like a checklist one for me, right? It was just like, I had been on these lists, much like Texas Chainsaw, I was like, I think I need to see these names that people seem to talk about all the time. And on initial viewing, I think I mentioned last week, I was very disappointed. I mean, this was as slow burn as a slow burn can sometimes get, right? And I'm sure we'll get into that, but I was left a little bit underwhelmed, but I'm coming today, fresh eyes, you're coming with fresh eyes too, looking at this at a different perspective, but I'm excited to talk about it. Have you had time to burn Apartment 7A on Paramount Plus? I haven't because I don't have Paramount Plus anymore, but that story, I mean, Julia Garner plays Terry Genofrio, the woman who spoiler, we'll get to it in a second, kills herself in the opening moments of this film. So it's almost like a pre-selection Rosemary's baby. It's like they were trying to go through her first, that didn't work. And so you kind of know, they've been doing a lot of that lately. I mean, the first Omen essentially from what I've heard, I still haven't seen it yet, but like that really backs right up to Gregory Peck, like, you know, with his wife in labor. I think they even drew a picture of him at the end of that movie. Just kind of like that sequel thing is like, does Apartment 7A end with like her doing laundry and like, oh, hi, what's your name? Rosemary, right? Let's hope. I don't know, I'm interested. Yeah, I think I'll definitely check it out. The poster for the movie is interesting too, 'cause it's that same kind of green background of the Rosemary's baby poster. And it looks like the girl's doing a swan dive out the window, but the way she's swan diving out is making like an upside down cross. So pretty interesting. So, yeah. Hey, man, I think we're gonna have a ton to talk about today. No spoilers this week. I mean, it's early this morning, so we're not going, you know, full whiskey, maybe as the show progresses, but we're gonna start with coffee today. But let's just get into it, Matt, our review breakdown of Rosemary's baby. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Mia Farrow. - Mia Farrow. - Doing the little lullaby there. On the title track, that's called the lullaby, which is pretty haunting and ominous, right? I mean, with baby lullabies, they're meant to soothe and put the baby to sleep in a very chanting, you know. - Create a jingle for omniscience parents to show up and take over your kids, you know, just nothing. - Absolutely, but if that's Rosemary's lullaby that she's giving to Adrian later, who boy, I mean, that's slightly troubling, right? - A little bit, yeah. - Matt, let's start before the opening credits before anything, let's just do this first because I mean, I might be coming with this today. There's a lot of movie posters I really like. I love Halloween, I love the thing, I love the Dark Knight, you know, Psycho's got some good posters, Vertigo, right, the Salbas, like logo. - Yeah. - Is this the best movie poster of all time? - I mean, this is, my opinion on the movie is, you know, we'll get into it, but my opinion on the poster is top shelf with a bullet. - Yep. - And I think there's a lot of nuance here too, so for those that haven't seen it, you should pull it up right now, but it's essentially this craggly hellish scape with this black baby carriage right in the middle and then this like green, emerald green background and then Rosemary's face laying down, almost like this is what she's thinking about and or I think one interpretation of the film, maybe not the best interpretation, but certainly an interpretation is, is all this crazy shit just in her head? Is she just imagining these people and their things? Is this just like a pregnancy fit that this woman's having? So the poster kind of evokes that, that this is an internal projection of what she's perceiving happening, which I find fascinating. And then another detail that I've never noticed. So in the title, so Rosemary's baby, the M on Mary and the B on baby, they joined together, like mother and baby, right? They're attached to the chord together, right? - Yeah. - That's a cool detail. I mean, what do you think? What are your thoughts on the image, the poster? I mean, we haven't had poster talking a long time because, you know, modern posters today, in my opinion are mostly poor. They're pretty mostly photoshopped images of the cast cobbled together. Sometimes occasionally you'll get like a really intuitive and thought-provoking image, but back in the day, man, they were, they had people assigned to figure this out. So what do you think of that? - Yeah, that's gotta be top three. I love the exorcist one too. - Oh yeah, the light coming through the window. - Jaws is a great one too. - Yeah. - Alien with the egg peakin' open, right? - Yeah, maybe we like that green hue. I don't know, but the fact that the baby carriage in this is so darkly transposed against the very misty ethereal profile of Mia Farrow with that horrific haircut that I'm sure we're gonna get some good laughs out of today 'cause boy, nobody lets her know that that's a good one, do they? - Yeah. - It's weird because is that her ear for what she's hearing? Is that a seed planted in her brain? Is she the backdrop of landscape that is going to be the structure of this new civilization? 'Cause if you look at her face compared to the craggly horizon that is below her, there's some undulations that kinda match, like that almost looks like a face. The black thing, if you look at that, looks like a nose where the baby carriage looks like a nose that looks like the indention that goes from nose to lips and that looks like lips. So is this just an extension of, it's a masterpiece. It is a beautiful movie poster. - Yeah. - I would love to get my hands on an original, what's that gonna set me back? - 5,000, 6,000. - Yeah. - Yeah, I've always just been drawn towards this image. Another reason I wanted to check it out, but let's bring back the more thought-provoking film posters. I don't know when we got away from that, but yeah, Philip Gipps is the one who put that together. So kudos to you. - It's original, Mr. Philip. - To Mr. Gipps. - Yeah, to Mr. Gipps. - All right, let's start with the beginning here. So we get that melodic lullaby, la, la, la, la, la, la, as we're going over New York City. - She's far more soothing than you are, by the way. - Yeah, thank you, thank you. And you get that really kind of beautiful pink typography and you're just seeing all these names go by and you're like, "Whoa, look at this cast here. "This is interesting. "Cass of Eddie's, sure we'll talk about him, "Ruth Gordon, Ralph Bellamy, "Mory 7s, Dr. Zias himself." I mean, he's in plan the ABC exact same year as this movie. - Elijah Cook. - Yeah. Charles Groden, what are you-- - Charles Groden, gotta be like pretty close to first appearance, right? - I think I read it was his first movie. You wanna talk about someone I'll put in my Sam Neil camp. I love the Groden man. - Okay. - And I think he has a really interesting role in this movie later. Really interesting cast. And then the producer of this film, we gotta talk about him for a little bit, William Castle. So, no, mostly for Schlock B. Horr and essentially the master of the theater gimmick. Before Hitchcock was forcing you to show up on time, William Castle was having ghosts go back and forth through the theater with the house on Haunted Hill. And he was rigging seats in the theater to electrocute/vibrate with the tingler and 13 ghosts. And he was really trying to do something 4D experience with movies before anyone was really thinking of that. So he's often considered kind of a gimmick king, even though some of the stuff he was thinking about was cool. Awesome. And I don't know if anyone out there has been to a 4DX movie screening, but it's essentially watching a William Castle film. Like the 4DX screens, like Twisters was a big one this summer. They'll spray water at you, the seats rock, the seats will, like, they'll spray hot mist at you to kind of get you that extra sense moving while you're watching a movie. Similar to like in Disneyland, like Honey, I Shrunk the audience, or they used to have that Bugs life ride. Yeah, where they would, it'd be like very sensory. William Castle was doing that, and unfortunately, I think he's mostly known for just B-level schlock, and I don't think that's entirely fair. But he somehow came to this book before it even got published, and he was like, I gotta buy the rights to this thing. This is gonna be my ticket to A-list tour. I get out of the B space, so he went to I-11, made a deal, bought this, took it to Robert Evans at Paramount, and was like, let's make this movie before this thing even hits the shelves, right? Much like Puzo, I mean, they bought the rights so that before it even became a book, right? And then it's about finding the right director, the right talent, but yeah, just watching these names go by, I think it's just entirely fascinating. Of all of them, is there one that you find more shockingly out of place than the one about Tell You, which is for me, Ralph Bellamy? Yeah. No, I think everyone else fits their roles pretty well. I think he fits it well too for me. I just would never imagine Ralph Bellamy at this place in his life. And boy, you hear Ralph Bellamy's voice and you can tell it's him like this. Yeah, yeah, Dr. Saperstein. Dr. Saperstein, so what's up, though, Oklahoma? Last time I saw you were trying to cord Irene Dunn in the awful truth, it's been a minute. Oh, wow. Actually, though, maybe ghost story. That's right. He's a ghost story, and he's one of the old men in ghost story. I don't know, no, no, no, no, no, it's Sean Housman. Yeah, you're right. He's gaggle of it. So yeah, it's been a while, but... The presents that I think he presents as a doctor in this film plays into a Charlton Heston kind of mold. It's interesting. But yeah, like you said, really interesting cast. And then you take as New Yorkie as it gets, John Cassavetes, and cast him in a really interesting role. And I know we're going to start a lot of the show's going to revolve around him today. How can anything in New York not revolve around John Cassavetes? Shout out to Gina Rollins too, because you've got to put the two of them together. But before we get into that, yeah. Do you want to wait? I was going to ask you, what is your take on Cassavetes as filmmaker versus film player? Sure. Actor. Well, you mentioned the name that I thought I was like, "Would this movie be a little better if it was Gina Rollins instead of Mia Farrow because they have that history as husband and wife?" Hard not to think about that. And/or she's amazing in his movies. Woman under the influence. Yeah. Woman under your guess, same thing, right? That's what you have. All those films that he was making with her with Peter Falk, I think he's a great director. And what I like about his movies is I think he was really toying the line between that Stanevs Lasky's method acting and the theatrical stage and bringing that to the cinema. So everything's a little more improvised. It feels a little more real. It feels a lot less scripted. And you get more like when people argue and have fights and disagreements in his movies, it feels like you walked in on your parents arguing or you walked in on arguing with your significant other or something, right? And I think he's really good at that. So him taking that and I've seen John in a few movies later, he goes kind of the schlock like 80s horror route just to kind of stay afloat, right? But I think he's a pretty good actor, right? And he brings that New York authenticity that I think is really crucial to a character like this. I'll float two names that were considered but they didn't go with Robert Redford, of course, because every film of this era is like, "I'll give it to Redford first." And Jack Nicholson, which I find interesting but probably I think Polanski went to him. He was like, "You look too sinister and we want a little more warmliness before we go there." And they're going to team up a few years later with Chinatown, right? Sure. I kind of like that they didn't go with either of those guys. Those seem like obvious choices and I think I like Cassidy because he doesn't seem like the obvious choice. Okay, no disagreement with any of that. I think Cassavetes and his history and film, including shooting a lot of his stuff in his own house, leans into the legacy of Rosemary's baby. And that's an important thing to cover today. We got to make sure we do our diligence to give it such. This film, as much as it's been referenced in this podcast and the place that it holds in just contemporary film lexicon, has a lot to do with the homeliness of the way this is shot. If this film is cast in California, LA, it looks a lot different. The fact that it's in a semi-high rise, probably way, as we find out in the beginning of the film, overvalued apartment, that's nice enough, but not particularly fantastic. It's okay. And there's even a conversation about that. It fits into just the commonality that people share in a tight-knit space. I know this is something that you really like. And I guess I'll just do it now. You love the idea of the villain who's living next door that you've been having dinner with for the last 20 years. Arlington Road. Yeah. The villain's literally upstairs, Jesse. Yeah. I think this is the perfect segue because I want to talk about the location here because the camera pans over and we get to the Bramford, the Dakota in real life. And it just looks crackly. I mean, it looks like some sort of gothic, you know, Transylvanian-esque architecture. It looks very unnatural. I love the location. And we mostly stay in this. When we go out when she's like, "I got to get out of this place and I need someone to help me." So we go to the street level and it feels authentic, like gorilla filmmaking on the streets. But we're mostly in these little apartment rooms. But did you notice, you know, the famous thing of the Dakota or the infamous thing with the Dakota? And they show it right there at the beginning when they're walking in as this is where Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon and right there on like that, like, stoop. Not that awning there, that like, you know, the valet awning. So the building has history. I mean, as part, it's part in rural smurries, baby. And one of the most infamous murders of all time, right? But there's something Roman Catholic about the way that the building looks like. Yeah. It reminds me a lot too of the building in Ghostbusters. Something that's built for other purposes outside of living for rituals and demon resurrection passages. I love that. Something outside for purposes of living. Yeah. I thought about the set pieces you're speaking of here when I was watching this and the use of cassavetes and New York. Like you could say it anymore. It could be Chicago, it could be like it could be anywhere. But I think that New York plays an important role. So if you take what I asked you a little while ago, the prospects that the person next door is this horrible person, you don't know it. And then you add to it New York City with its Gothic architecture. Hence Gotham, Batman is Gotham, and then the influence of lots of stones, flying buttresses, the architecture that sculpts the statement that makes a Gothic look and like your affinity for Batman. I'm really curious to see where this goes because those are two very strong, not story points or acting points, but setting points in a space that you particularly like. So we've got a good setting in New York City. We've got the villain that we're going to find out is like who you've been breaking bread with for the last two weeks. So I'm really interested more so than I think I've been in some time as to where you end up on this film, because off mic we had some conversations about was this going to be ET or is this going to be the conjuring? One or the other, right? And speaking with those in the same context of Rosemary's baby, what is going on in this show today? Yeah, no idea. No, I love the setting and you're right. Setting it in New York I think is absolutely crucial. And I love films that take place in this city. This is from someone who's never been there, but there's something that I've always admired and really appreciate about NYC. And one of the things that I really like, whether it's, you know, things I've listened to or films I've watched, but I really appreciate chaotic New York energy. And it's the fastest, most bustling city on the planet, right? And everyone's got an opinion and everyone's got a personality. And I think that's really shown really well in this film with Ruth Gordon's character, Mini Cassavette. But take that chaotic energy that's just bustling outside. It's bustling inside. Now we're in a confined space with this Gothic architecture and this really weird designed apartment building, where we have almost like a hotel room and a joining door where you can come go in between both. That's strange. I mean, cement that up if I'm moving into this place. Someone coming in here. No, I love the setting. It's great. And then, you know, single location or kind of for the most part. I love horror films that take place in apartment buildings too, because unlike a house where you can run to the backyard, you can run, you know, to the front yard, the garage, you have a basement, you might have an attic. I mean, in an apartment building, you have your apartment and then you have elevators. You have usually like a laundry room. There's a lot more places you can run and do action, right? So, yeah, I'm on board with where we're at and how we're going to do this. Okay, so let's talk about one of the themes that's going to play in this a lot, because this is a great lead-in. And that is privacy. Polanski likes this. And I think if you've seen Repulsion, you see, I mean, although that's about other things, there is a definite invasion of that happens in there. The tenant, also another example of that. That there is this corridor that allows essentially free range between where you live and, oh, I don't know, everyone else that's in the hallway, it would seem. There has been an acknowledgement as the film starts to put a wardrobe, they call it something else, but essentially a wardrobe or a dresser. Chest of drawers, yeah. In front of it to block that off. Now, what's interesting about that, we're assuming it's from the previous tenement that is tenement. Tenement. Not tenement. Tenent. Tenent. Oof. That is whom Mia Farrow and John Cassavetes are taking over that apartment. Yeah, this old Miss Gardenia who passed away. He died in a coma. Interesting that she died there too, a lot of death in this place. There's nothing in it. Yeah. And it's moved with little acknowledgement of what might be on this other side, other than it's never been where it is now. This shouldn't be here, there's a closet here, and I want to show you this place. Yeah. So, let's put this back where it was not get rid of it. It's a piece of just abstract furniture that does nothing except block off what looks to be a normal closet. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't worry about a closet needing to be blocked off. If it's an eyesore, maybe, but closets have a back wall to them that prevents trespass through there. So, why are you essentially damning it then on both sides, damning it by blocking it? Yeah. And it's these little moments in this film like this that are really set up well and played off, for me, effectively later in the film. Yeah. But we're admitting that something isn't right and we need to block off this piece of your privacy. Yeah, it's like a closet backdoor to like Narnia, right? It's like behind the wardrobe. Let's talk about this scene real quickly because I noticed a couple things here when Alicia Cook, Jr. You know this guy. You've seen him in so many movies, but Gumshu and Maltese Falcon. Yeah. He's given them the tour of the place. It's still fully furnished because the family hasn't moved any of the stuff out. And there's a moment that I noticed where Cook is really kind of getting into a little bit more than a farriest, you know, while she died there and kind of giving a little bit too much detail where it looks like Rosemary might get turned off by the thing or by the place. And Cassavelli's just like is shooting him this like glare of like, stop it, dude, shut up. So is that dude shut up because we want this or dude shut up? This is already in motion already. This is preordained is Cook, Jr. in on this ploy. The reason why he goes to the closet. I mean, because he could have just walked right by and there's a good chance that Rosemary and what's his name? John? Guy. Guy. Oh, how could I forget that? I love his name. Never know that there's a door behind that drawer. Are they doing this on purpose to like allow that invasion of privacy to begin that pathway to, you know, interrupt their lives and or start taking over her body? What do you think? Because I think there's two ways you can go where it's just no. Guy gets, you know, taken over by the Cassavettes a little bit later. Cook, Jr. isn't really in on this, but there's another viewing or like this could just be, we're getting going early, right? I mostly am at the place that in this point in the film, it is he knows his wife likes it and he doesn't want this guy to talk her out of it. Yeah. We can go back and forth and we're going to talk about something in a few minutes. I'm sure that is an argument to the case I'm making just now. I do think in his very hyperactive New York, almost ADD kind of attention to everything bouncing, pinning, like nothing gets more than two sentences despite how big or little it is out of his bow. At this point in the film, he has not been seduced into witchcraft. I think he is still, for the most part, serving the purposes of faithful husband in love with his wife. And because of that, he can read her in a way that, look, I don't have a bunch of time to spend talking about this. The woman likes it. I need to go home and run my lines as I'm trying to score this gig. And so the more you talk, the more you're making this difficult on her, which makes my life difficult and just shut up. In other words, I don't really have a lot of time for you to talk us out of this because man by three o'clock, I've got to do this. So, yeah, I'm at the place now, mostly, that he is a beautiful husband. Are you with me on this? Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I don't think the films, the way it's portrayed is you're supposed to buy in that nefarious things are in the works already. But I was hard not to look at his grin and it was just like, if don't blow the plan, this is a deeply rooted plan that's been in the works for a while. I just, I really like, and again, when they moved that big chest, I mean, you would never have known that there was something else back there, so it does open up the next kind of factor here. But they take it, right? They're getting a pretty good deal on it. But their buddy, they got this kind of friend, hutch, who is just uneasy from the word go. Are you aware that the Bamford had rather unpleasant reputation around the turn of the century? It's where the trench sisters conducted their little dietary experiments, and Keith Kennedy, all these parties. Adrian Maccato lived there too, so these pearl age youngsters. The trench sisters were two proper Victorian ladies. They cooked and ate several young children, including a niece. Oh, lovely. Adrian Maccato practiced witchcraft. He made quite a splash in the 90s by announcing that he'd conjured up the living devil. Apparently people believed him, so they attacked and nearly killed him in the lobby of the Bamford. You're joking. Later, the Keith Kennedy business began, and by the 20s, the house was half empty. I knew about Keith Kennedy, I didn't know that Maccato was there. And those sisters. World War II filled the house up again. Terrific. What, the house? The lamb. They called it Black Bamford. Oh, awful things happen in every apartment house. This house has a high incident on pleasant happenings. In '59, a dead infant was found wrapped in newspaper in the basement. You really roused my appetite. Have some more wine. A lot of red flags there, right? As a history. Yeah. Adrian Maccato, are we bringing that guy back? Is that kind of the thing here? Yeah. And then this dead infant that they found in the basement or the laundry or wherever he said. Another failed experiment, I would imagine. They've been doing this for a while. And as we meet the people, they are, it's mostly an elderly cadre of Neferia, right? Yeah. I think we've been doing this for decades. Looking for the right hosts and the right personality traits and the right people to convince and manipulate to our will. And their friend, yeah, this is more, he said, Dr. Zias himself just trying to dissuade them from moving out. I think he says something earlier, he was like, I wanted to write a thing that you were the worst tenants ever. Just so you guys wouldn't move in there. Drugs and parties or something like that. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't. I said you were great tenants because he doesn't want to ruin his relationship with them. Yeah, it's just, there's a lot left to be desired about moving into this place. But hey, you're getting a great deal, right? Some other familiar colors being painted with in this bit too. So other than the cadre of Neferia, which I like that, you're spending them today, buddy. Trying to finally figure out what incapable host looks like for the birth of the Antichrist, essentially, or a Satan spot. I don't know if I want to go so far as Antichrist, but what else would it be? I think it is, yeah. It would make sense. I don't think he just has a kid. He's probably the Antichrist. They did. We're also seeing our return or mastering something that Polanski likes. And it's an interesting way to draw horror out of a place that I don't think we see done often. Yeah. And that is the consumption of food, particularly by women. We're going to watch Rose and we're going to watch Ruth Gordon. Many. Many. Go through quite a series of consumption that also plays into some of his previous and post work. What is it about the ravenous woman, whether it's chicken liver or raw steak or cake? What is it about that? Yeah. That seems so unnerving and unnatural. Yeah. It's hard watching people just eat gourds themselves. Isn't it? Right? Yeah. It's an infamous story when we're watching Marie Antoinette in a class. And I was like, this movie's going to make me throw up. But it's not the same watching a male do it. I don't know. It might be for me. There's something about gluttony. Like even in seven. I'm glad we don't have to see that, man. Chef Spaghetti until he bursts. Yeah, that makes me queasy. So I think there's something, because I think to me food is a delicacy, right? It's meant to be enjoyed, savored. There's a lot of pleasure in food. I eat with my eyes. So I get to look good. I like textures in my food. I like a little bit of crunch. I like to feel my food. And then something about just, yeah. Like when she's going to town on that liver or eating this mousse, which I like mousse. I mean, chocolate mousse, that sounds good. Not watching them eat it. And I'm like, oh, and she's talking about a chalky undertaste. And I'm like, that kind of stuff makes me a little queasy. So, yeah, we're doing a lot of eating in this movie back and forth. I think Polensky has it figured out whether it's just the unnatural of that kind of ravenous consumption is not what we're used to. So we're playing in the uncanny, the return of the savage. Because once upon a time, there was no broiler that you set at 450 and cooked until it turned to a golden brown. It was like, you caught it and you ate it. So that sort of primal piece that, this is funny that this is coming up right now, because we had a conversation at work this week about the affinity for males to prefer westerns to females. And that took us down the savage versus the uncivilized, right? As far as viewing preferences. And here we are again. So maybe it's just in my mind and that's why I'm bringing it up. But let's do it anyway, because that's what the show's for, isn't it? Yeah. Watching people return to that base level. For me, particularly females return to that base level of just give it to me, speaks to an unnatural state of necessity to say whatever you are trying to fill. Now we're going to find out in Rosemary's baby. She's feeding a very, very ravenous organism growing inside of her. But even many and guide to a certain degree also don't seem to have any realization that there's no time clock. Yeah. It's not being taken away in 15 seconds. I get a lot of crap from my family like you eat too fast, and I'm just going to take it away, Matt. Just enjoy your food. I mean, usually it's just so hungry. I have to get it in, right? Not so much anymore, but it used to be like that. Well, we finished this meal. I'm getting ahead of ourselves and we'll get there. The meal is finished later, and the film and dessert comes, and it is... Let's go. Man, it might as well just be face down in the trough. Let's go. Yeah, it's like a... It's like double there. They cannot get the fork through the cake to their lips. Yeah. Any... The flash would be like, "Damn, you guys are fast." Yeah. So, Polanski, for all of the things that we can say about Polanski, and a lot of them aren't positive socially. I think his best work is done by figuring out how to, in a not film noir way, although it happens in Chinatown, bastardize the traits that I think women need to portray as gentle and demure and slightly restrained, and he think he does a good job of turning them into something else entirely. Sure. There's a scene coming up that I hope we'll get to a minute, but I'm going to give the mic back to you because I've been going for a little bit here. It is. That's good. Oh, let's catch up a little bit. So, they move in, right, you know, when they're in bed, they hear the talking already. I mean, these walls are thin, thin, thin. They're here in discussions and arguments or whatever, and they start hearing chanting, which another red flag of, "Are they listening to shut in mass, or what is going on up there?" She meets Terry Genofrio in the basement. She has a funny line, too, where she says, "Oh, you remind me of," I get the name, right, "you remind me of," oh my gosh, he's not in here, Victoria Vetri. And that's exactly who that is, right? That's the actress playing Terry, and kind of talking about just like, "Yeah, this is a weird spooky place. We should come to our laundry together. I'm living with the Casavettes. I'm kind of a runaway. I was into drugs. I have one brother. He's in the Navy. But they're really taking good care of me, and they gave me this thing, and, man, that's some fun with the evil bed magnifying glass, just garbage. This ain't much better. This sleybell trinket with just like fungus powder inside. Yeah, this is, and just like, "Oh, look at this great thing, oh, that's hideous." But for Rosemary, it's just like, "I'm going to be spending a lot of time with this apartment trying to beat the homemaker, make it a place worth living while guys out hustling to be an actor. I got a friend now." "Nope, friend's dead. Takes a swan dive, and then here we meet the Casavette Toussom." "Oh, here they come. You folks, the Casavettes on the 7th floor?" "We are." "You have a young woman named Teresa Janoffreyo living with you?" "We do. What's wrong? Has there been an accident?" "You'd better brace yourself with some bad news. She's dead. Jumped out of the window." "That's not possible. It's a mistake." "Hardy. Wanna let these folks take a look, please?" "I knew this would happen. She got deeply depressed every three weeks or so. I told my wife about it, but she pooped me." "Well, that doesn't mean she killed itself. She's a very happy girl, no reason but self-destruction. She must have been cleaning the windows or something." "She wasn't cleaning windows at midnight." "Why not? Maybe she was." "Is that her handwriting?" "Yes." "Definitely. Absolutely." "Thank you. I'll see this gets back to you when we are done with it." "I don't believe it. I just don't believe it. She was so happy." "Who's the next to kin?" "Well, she's all alone. She didn't have anybody, only us." "Did she have a brother?" "Did she?" "She said she did. In the Navy. News to me." "Do you know where he stationed?" "No, I don't. She mentioned him to me in the laundry room. I'm Rosemary Woodhouse." "We're in, uh, '70." "I feel just the way you do, Mrs. Castibot. She seemed so happy and full of... She said wonderful things about you and your husband. How grateful she was." "I really like these two characters. I mean, they're the way they're dressed, the way they act. I mean, you want to talk about just that, again, that chaotic New York energy. I mean, these two have it. Man Ruth Gordon, uh, like, there's like three or four Ruth Gordon's in my family, like, just this type of personality, just like this, kind of, you know, some of the nosy, bitty, busybody stuff. There's a bit of Hispanic quality, I think, to many Castibet, which I could, uh, atone to. "I'd throw sandal and hitchhips on the head." "Yeah, yeah." "But there's something, I really like her and I know you're not as big a fan of Harold Ahmad as I am, but I really like the late blooming tenure of Ruth Gordon where she kind of got this second shot. I mean, she's going to win an Oscar for this movie, Best Supporting Actress, but she kind of had, like, a second win, right? She's really good here, and especially as, you know, being introduced to Rosemary here, the very next day, she shows up at the keyhole and you're like, "Oh, God, I mean, like..." When she comes in that threshold, man, it's like, she's like Dracula, she's in and out, and I mean, you see that a lot on sitcoms, right? Whether it's like Seinfeld or Friends, or I love Lucy, just that kind of in and out neighborhood, just get to come over whenever they want and, man, I ain't about that life at all, man. I just, the less I see for my neighbors, the better, uh, but what do you think about them as a couple, them, and just kind of what, the spice of flavor that they're about to bring into this movie? Yeah, hugely important to move the story along, and again, it gets into the invasion of privacy because they just keep showing up all the time, even if it's nothing other than to show up with some, some dessert. So what I really like about this is when we see bad guys or masterminds rarely do they look like these two. It's just looks like that New York couple. It's not possible, just kind of overwrought with angst and years and years of, of close knit living, and their, their love language is essentially in a semi-state of blaming each other and argumentative and whiny. As important as this relationship between the two of them plays out as quote unquote, loving couple, there's another moment that happened that gets back into the discussion around a guy that I'd like to have with you. And it's what is his goal? So let's go back maybe five, seven minutes before what we see here with the friend that's just plunged to her death on the sidewalk. And it's the christening of the new apartment. We have to talk about this because it's interesting the way that Adam folds. Usually in film when we see it's our first night in the new place and we have a couple of plastic boxes and candlelight and an open window and the moonlight and nothing else. And we've been reduced to no television, no beds, no, just we have the place and here's a floor and we haven't moved the furniture yet. We eat dinner again, eating and then we go through that moment that we love in film, which is these couple are really in love and we have to make this place ours. And I think this is the thing in life. I'm not trying to be grosser here or whatever, but breaking in your house. Okay. So it's time to break in the house, Kristin it if you will. Have you ever seen a man less interested in the workman duty that he's going to go through in order to christen this house? Like Mia Farrell leans over across the candles. They have a few other words that don't really matter because the words that really matter let's make love or want to make love or something like she initiates it, wait to that, let's raise it up, amen. And it happens and they just sort of strip in this like very assembly line manner, here go my shoes, now my belt, now my trousers, okay, check, check, check, check. Is he too in himself to care or is he too knowledgeable about who's ultimately going to take his wife that he doesn't want her like that anymore? Yeah. Yeah. This is my argument against argument earlier that he doesn't know what's going on because this scene makes me think like, man, maybe this guy does know what's about to happen. Sure. I can't get her pregnant in this state because if I do, the devil can't get her pregnant. Yeah, I thought you were going to say something is the most uncomfortable sex you've ever seen because, man, we're just on the hardwood floor. Oh, God. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it probably hasn't even been swept yet. It's just like dust mites on top of you. Yeah. Yeah. And you're your chicken bakatas right next to you right there. I'm smelling capers when I'm assuming the position, right? So that isn't that thing around her neck, but keep going. No, this is I have always that thing around her neck is the token that she's been given a little bit later. Nothing else to perves. I didn't mean anything else around her neck. Yeah. Because hands are wherever your all minds went. I've always had a, I guess, a misconception of how I remember the movie because I always kind of remembered that this was the scene where she gets pregnant, right? Yeah. But that's going to happen a little bit later. But yeah, it seems. Yeah, you're right. Assembly lines the right word because it's like, let me turn off the light and pop my shoes off and put my pants off and it's just like, they're not talking. There's no music. There's nothing. And she's like, yeah, I guess, yeah, well, let's do it, right? So yeah, based on his treatment of her later, but again, that is under the influence of Satan. He does see mostly okay, church lady, David Carvey. He does see mostly disinterested in his wife from, for most of the movie, right? Yeah. You know, I love you, kid, with, you know, who she's hanging around with. The haircut later, right? I mean, he just is not pleased with her for most of the film. I just stopped you for one second because you were so on point with where I want to go. Okay. I was watching this last night. I asked Denise if she wanted to watch with me and she's like, I'm going to pass. We got to the point when she's at home cutting the drapes or measuring something at the window. And I think it's like that yellow and white romper. Yeah. And husband comes home and she very happily, oh, this is, this is the night. I think, no, this is the night to go to dinner the first time. Okay. So after what's her name jumps out of the window and kills herself, eventually they are invited over to many and Romans house for dinner. So on that night, guy comes home from work and Rosemary is about to pitch him reluctantly because it seems like he gets home at like 830 on going over to the older people's house for dinner. I had to stop and watch this two times and bring my wife in and was like, can you see, have you ever seen a more ridiculous welcome home response from husband and this? And if you remember, Mia Fair runs up super happy, big kiss, big hug. He puts his left arm around her shoulder for a minute and Pat's around the ass two times like it's his linebacker who just sacked the quarterback coming off the field. Hey, kid. Good job. Go get him. You laughed. I'm like, man, if I ever do that to you when I come home, like you smack me and I'm not cracking around the can or whatever like that's whatever we play, but you know what I'm saying? It's so. Yeah. Hey, kiddo. Good job. Yeah. Like the man, a lot of disinterested, right? That's that word is so perfect and so understated at the same time, kind of like his feelings for her. Yeah. He doesn't give a damn and then I have one more question for you and then we'll go back to the story. Yeah. Right. He might be on the take already. Do you think? Possibly. Right? Maybe. Possibly. Like I and think about it. Would you want and then after the consummations scene happens, he wants nothing to do with her and she speaks about it. We'll get to that too. Yeah. Because why would you want to be taking a role and that with the woman who had just made it with the devil? Yeah. I don't want to put myself in any kind of intimate spot where the devil just was even if I'm working for him. Yeah. So, is Guy acting excellently in this or is, is, I shouldn't say Guy, is John Casavite's showing his excellence as an actor in this or is it working because you can pull this part off with poor acting because poor acting oftentimes looks like disinterested. No, I think he's really selling it. Yeah. I think this is again, that naturalistic, you know, kind of acting where it feels more real. Yeah. So, yeah. If you're just like, yeah, what was it like to come home and just be like, Yeah, I don't want to go over there. I just do that. Let's just, I just want to say, I mean, straight about the TV on and everyone's watching the TV like right in front of it too. Yeah. I mean, this woman has just like basically said, I'm going to throw myself at you. Let's break this place in and then comes home to this awesome welcome. Hi babe. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, all right. I guess we can get down on this dirty floor here and I mean, he gets, there's no sports in her neck because I don't have a TV and then, yeah, final question, yeah. Was this role hard to sell to an actress because so much of it revolved around nudity and sex? Because Mia Farrow is naked a lot in this film. Who passed on this Jesse? Uh, yeah, I do have, I don't know if they passed or I do have, you know, alternative considerations, uh, Tuesday, Weld, Sharon Tate because, you know, him and her and Plansky work together at the time. Patty Duke. Wow. Yeah. Goldie Hahn. Wow. Could see Goldie Hahn. Me too. Yeah. Especially that second city TV versus Goldie Hahn then. Yeah. Uh, and Patty Duke's going to play Rosemary and the made for TV follow up within 76 called play pray for Rosemary's baby so she'll get her chance, I guess. Uh, yeah, I think this is a bit of a heart, much like Reagan McNeil. I mean, you're going to be putting someone through the ringer and it is a physically demanding emotionally taxing, I think part, um, so I think, yeah, I think some other people did pass on it, but I think she fits the mold really well for what they're going for. They do need someone a little more meek someone that they're going to be able to roll over for most of this film and she plays it really well and her transformation from the beginning here and through the, the end of the film is pretty interesting to watch. I know we're going to, we're going to talk about, I mean, the husk that she is in about midway through this movie. I mean, the piece of chalk she, oh my God, she looks like a piece of chalk. Yeah. Sickly. I mean, dark eye circles lost the two pounds she didn't have to lose to begin with or the 10 pounds she didn't have to lose with. Yeah. They make her look sick. I can tell you who didn't want her to do this movie. Tell me. Frank Sinatra. Yeah. Very adamant that he didn't want, you know, his wife being in like a devil movie and, you know, they get divorced in the middle of this production. Maybe not entirely because she took the movie because Frank Sinatra seems like a lot to deal with. Just altogether. Oh, you think? Yeah. Uh, but apparently she got served divorce papers and in front of the entire casting crew. Right. What a classic up Frank. I know. It's just so she's got, so she almost dropped out of the movie at that point because she was like, I needed to go try and salvage my relationship with my husband. So maybe all that stress it wasn't makeup. It was really maybe just her. Yes. Personal stress, right? Sure. I shouldn't laugh at that. And notorious, you know, Paramount produced the godfather or, you know, Paramount studio head for this time period that we really like showed her a rough cut of the film and was like, look how good you are and like, we, we, I think you should really complete the movie. And so yeah, she was convinced, she was convinced to stick. Can you imagine? I mean, do we film half of this and you're going to bail? Yeah. She tried to get out of the contract, which are we just starting the movie over again or we just kill on the movie because we don't have a lead actress anymore. So that seems pretty crazy. I think she's pretty perfect for, for, for this part. So they go to dinner, the, to, to, to much to guys hesitation, he doesn't want to go. I wouldn't want to go either. They go to dinner and yeah, these two are very cordial. They're very playful. They're very chaotic. These vodka blushes that he walks over, I feel them too close to the top. Watch it, Rome. You're spilling them on the carpet. The carpet, the carpet, you idiot. I'm from Omaha, guys from Baltimore. Omaha's a good city, Baltimore is too. Do you travel for business? Well, business and pleasure both. I'm 79 and I've been going one place or another since I was 10. You name a place? I've been there. Ah, steak's ready. Doris, she drinks now. You're almost, take your pill. No pulp ever visits a city where the newspapers are on strike. I heard he's going to postpone and wait until it's over. Well, that's showbiz. [LAUGHING] That's exactly what it is. All the costumes are rituals. All religions. Oh, I think we're a friend in Rosemary. No, no. No, you're not religious, my dear, are you? I was brought up a Catholic. Now I don't know. You looked uncomfortable. Well, he is the pope. Well, now, you don't need to have respect for him because he pretends that he's holy. That's a good point. Well, when I think what they spend on robes and jewels. A good picture of the hypocrisy behind organized religion was given I thought in Luther. Did you ever get to play that leading part guy? Me? No. Oh, weren't you Albert Finney's understudy? No. Well, that's strange. I remember being struck by a gesture you made and checking in the program to see who you were. What gesture was that? Well, I know I'm not sure now. It was a reaction or-- Oh, I did a thing with my arms. When Luther was having a fit with a kind of involuntary reach. That's it. That's it. It had a wonderful authenticity to it. Oh, come on. No, no, I mean it. My father was a theatrical producer. And my early years were spending the company of Mrs. Piss, Forbes, Robinson, or Jessica. Guy? Oh, yes, please. You have a most interesting inequality guy. It appears in your television work, too. It should take you a long way indeed, provided, of course, that you get those initial breaks. Boy, the seductions in full effect right now, man. They're really stroking the ego, laying it on thick. I did this thing with my arms. Oh, yeah, you did. How could I forget? Come on. I really like Sidney Blackmer as Roman here. Because he's just like, oh, I've been there, and I did this. And I-- oh, yeah. Omaha, great. Nebraska, great state, right? The fuck Omaha is great. Sorry, Omaha listeners. Come on, man. He's just really peppering it on. And man, they're eating during the scene. I mean, they're just scarfing the clanging of the plates of the utensils, and then from the steak to dinner. I mean, we wouldn't even take a-- let's sit and breathe. Let me let that steak sit in my belly for a little bit. Let me enjoy that fillet and my sides. No, let me shove custard or whatever the hell Minnie's cake is Minnie's shoving at me on top of all that. Oh, man, it's pretty disgusting. Roman's little monologue there is entirely positive and overly so on purpose, except when it gets to the part of non-secular roles. And the role is the pope doesn't play and how you shouldn't just pay homage, because he thinks he's this. You almost feel like at this moment is this the litmus test that guy all too easily fails. Because he's like, oh, yeah, I agree with that. And you wonder if Roman says, got him. He doesn't like the pope. Yeah. There's an in here. So if you're back in the space we were earlier, which is this was entirely not preplanned and is happening organically, then that would probably give you some credence there. And I actually don't know where I am at that right now. I think the way the film is. I think, yeah, this is the beginning of this seduction. Because again, he didn't want to come over here. And guess what? He's having a great time. This guy doesn't want to leave. And get those conversations about religion. And I grew up Catholic, but now I don't know what I am. It's just all around it. And interesting thing happens in this, and that is Rosemary is really struggling to find a piece of the meat on the steak that she's wanting to consume. Yeah. The rest of them, if it's on the table, it's getting crushed. Not Rosemary. She is-- you see her, they take particular time to watch her cutting and searching. And she's looking through the meat, like, I'm not too raw, too raw, but she doesn't want to be rude. Everybody else's plates get cleared by Minnie, and they are clear, clear, clear. Jack's bracket eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean, right? They are-- there's a scant of morsel left. Rosemary is might as well have been the same serving she got when the plate was originally given to her. She served herself. She just doesn't want to eat. So again, there's Polanski with a couple setups that we've talked about. And that's this invasion of privacy, because we initially didn't want to go over there. And now these people are working themselves into their lives so much that in the first time we've been at their house, we've already had a discussion about, I don't know, religion. I don't know about you, Jesse, but I was raised. We don't do politics or religion right away. Or the Great Pumpkin. OK, those three things. OK. So that's already been-- that bridge has already been crossed. Yeah. And now we're also in that other space that I think Polanski makes a lot of hay in in this movie, and that's consumption. Food. I love it. This is so smartly done. And I mean, I think people can probably see from where I'm at on this, where I'm going to generally be on this film. I missed all of this stuff. And I don't know if this is the third or fourth time I've seen this movie, but I missed all of this stuff at least the first two times. Maybe it's the show. Maybe it's a tighter lens, I'm not sure. But you pay attention more, and you pick up on more things and how people react and don't react to certain aspects. But-- Yeah, go. Yeah, I really like this scene. It's one of my favorite scenes of the film, just like this weird dinner, and two generations that just have very little in common, right? Guy eats two pieces of cake before you, and I could even get one forkful in our room. I know, it's just-- Who the hell eats two pieces of cake at dessert? They're just scarfing it down. They leave, and Rosemary's like, oh, I'm glad we did that. But I'm not for a while, and Guy's like, I'm going back tomorrow night. I've got to get more stories from this guy. And it's just like, what? That's a weird scene, too, when she's in the kitchen helping Minnie clean the dinner table and wash the dishes. All we get is almost from behind a closed door playing into that privacy space. Roman and Guy are, I guess, smoking a pipe together. And revaling or reviving, revivaling. How do you say that, reviving each other's former glory and stories while Rosemary is stuck doing the dishes? And she can't quite see what's going on. There's a hint, but she can't quite see. It's almost like she's trying to eavesdrop or peeping Tom in there. The other thing, too, and for the arguments about Ruth Gordon shouldn't or shouldn't have won this Academy Award, there's a moment when she's eating that cake, when she smears it on her lips and just leaves it there. And it just gets back into the space of like, these people are savages. Yeah. Take your pill. Roman, take your pill. Stop it, Roman. You spelled the wine on the rug. And she's really intrusive. So we cut to the next few days. We'll talk about Guy. He's an understudy. He gets a part in this big play because this guy is just suddenly blind. Blind. Instant blindness. Yeah, we're going to find out. I mean, there's some coven interference, right? Yeah. Some curses being strewn about. But many comes over with this. What's this Laura Louise, this other person? And they just come in and they're like commenting on the furniture and how much did this cost? And it's just like, man, we're getting a little too close here, right? Just like, we need to-- we need some space here. And Guy is just like, I need more. I need-- I want to be closer to them. So I think we should, as an audience, know something's up here. And then we get to the big scene here. So they've been talking about once they're nice and settled that they want to have kids. They want to have up to three kids, right? We'll stop at three, which, OK. But they've had a big night plan. They're going to get dressed. They're going to have a candlelight dinner. They're going to sit in front of the fire. They're going to really romance and schmooze it up. And many shows up with chocolate mousse. And she's like, oh, I don't want to interfere with your dana. So I brought dessert for the two of you here. And they're eating this mousse. And it's really uncomfortable. Because again, Guy is just like, it's gone before. I mean, she can even have a second spoonful. And she's really struggling to get through it. And she's like, it's got a real weird chucky undertaste. An undertaste, right? And like, I don't want to eat anymore. And he gets really offended. And like, he's about to ruin the night right here. He's just like-- now, many made that for us. So I think it'd be the appropriate thing to go and finish it. And I'm like, I just don't want it. There's no chucky undertaste. Stop being so silly and eat your mousse. Yeah. And he didn't like this heated argument about mousse. And she's like, fine, I'll eat it. And when he turns his back, she dumps it all into this anchor chip. But she has eaten a little bit. And I think as seasoned viewers, I mean, a strange tasting food. And he doesn't have the strange tasting food, right? And I think they have different toppings. I think it's the tell as well. I think his is like a more kind of whipped cream on top. And hers is more of like a gray-- the gray stuff. And so she's walking down the hallway. She just passes-- she just passes out. I mean, so she's drugged. And we're like, oh, I guess baby night's on hold, right? So let me get you to bed. Let me get you in there. I'll get you in your pajamas. And then we get to the scene, man. And this is-- you want to talk about troubling from multiple different facets. I'll play the audio here in a second. But I think Polanski, when I think again, they're not getting into his fucking war crimes, right? Go read up on those if you don't know what some of the things Polanski has been accused of and-- Yeah, kind of a dirt bag. Yeah, we're not going to get into that here because we're going to keep it to the movie. But one of the things he does really well in this film is the dream sequences. They feel like dreams. And they're nonsensical. They don't make sense. I mean, there's nuns talking in Minnie's voice. They're cementing this girl's school. I want to know more about-- she grew up in a Catholic school. And then we're on this yacht. And there's these people talking to us. And they look like people from the building that are occupied. And it feels like what a dream feels like. You can't make heads or tails on why these people are here, where you're at. You're laying on a mattress at sea. And then she's just naked. And she's walking into what looks like a basement. There's a big bed on this basement. And she gets on it, and everyone starts surrounding her. They start painting her. And it gets creepy real quick. [MUSIC PLAYING] [SINGING] She's awake. She sees you. You don't see. As long as she ain't the mouse, she can't see her hair. She's like dead now, sing. [MUSIC PLAYING] [SINGING] I'm sorry to hear you are feeling well. It's only the mouse, but you'd better have your legs tied down in case of convulsions. He says for himself. There's always a chance of this rabbit. If a music bothers you, let me know. And I'll have it stopped. Oh, no, no. Please don't change the program I'm making. Try to sleep. He'll be waiting up on dinner. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] This is no dream. This is really happening. [MUSIC PLAYING] I'll see your screams of orgasm. Melanie Daniels, and raise your Rosemary's baby, whatever that is. I want to ask you where you want to start with all of that. Yeah. But first, something I picked up on when Laura Louise and Ruth Gordon come over and they're commenting on the furniture. One of the things that Rosemary says is like, I think it's my first day of my period. And Laura's like, oh my god, my period. And on my first day, I'm always a wreck. I can't move. I can't do anything. A woman hasn't had a period in 20 years yet. But she's doing something she shouldn't have done, because she's giving them information on her cycles. So now they're able to pinpoint when ovulation's going to be peak. And they keep referencing this calendar in the kitchen. So guys like Guy knows when baby night is. Because the coven knows when baby night, this is when we're going to do it, right? And it's almost like this heist. It's like this plan. The moose, the this, the abduction, knock her out. And we're going to take her into the room. And we're going to put her in the thing. So it does feel dreamlike, but there's dream and reality mixed in here. It's terribly unsettling. The chanting and naked people, man. I mean, the naked people in the hereditary is deeply off-putting. Midsomar. Yeah. Something about naked old people. It follows, right? Just naked people on roofs and stuff. The gym. Yeah. This fun gym, yeah. Yeah, the old people at the gym have no shame. I mean, it's just like, whoop, here I am. Here's the locker room. I mean, when you're 70, I mean, what do you get? Who cares? Nobody. Literally, you certainly do. Yeah, this is something else. The music, the chanting, the nakedness, cast of eddies transforming from John cast of eddies into the devil, the hands. I mean, the hands going up and down Rosemary's body from human hands to just like a cloth hands, and the eyes, these goat eyes. And in the scene in the middle, when this woman runs down these stairs, and they're talking about a mouse, and the mouse bit me, who do you think that woman? Is that her mom? Who is that? That's an interesting moment for me in the scene. I'm glad you brought that up. I just wanted to talk about it. OK, so let's talk about which is just in generally for a minute. One of the staples in which is fiction-wise is the cauldron, the melting pot of potions, if you will. What is often put in there is snakes in snails and puppy dog tails, as later references. But critters, mice mouse. There's a really interesting mispronunciation that-- Moose and mouse? Yeah, that many gives upon the delivery of the moose to Guy and Rosemary that is turned into mouse. After the consumption of the moose or mouse, we see Rosemary go through the state of hallucination and whatever you want to call this to where the conception starts. I think by allowing many to say mouse, it does lean into the concoction that might have happened between closed doors that may be involved, things that no one of a sane mind would consume, purposely knowing. Is she really eating a mouse? And if so, what cauldron did this get mixed up in? And then that turns into you got bit by a mouse. Is that literally? Is that metaphorically? So we're getting a lot of traction with witchcraft on the play of moose versus mouse, because it's moose. Even in New York, it's still with your long o's or short o's. It's still moose, but not too many. So what did she cook up? Because this is also a great setup for later on in the film when she keeps making the pregnancy vitamin concoction. The pregnancy smoothie? The pregnancy smoothie. What's in this? Oh, some herbs, some this, some tannas root, some, what's it, snakes and snails and puppy dog tails? What the hell is that saying? It's gray is gray, it's disgusting. I just think that's really, really well crafted. And I don't know if that's in the book. And frankly, I don't care. But for Polanski to take that and make sure that the dialogue represents these little moments that breed into what you brought up. And I don't agree with it either. You said sort of poorly defended. Is this all in her head? I don't think this is all in her head. Yeah. But it does play into, there is this larger strategy of the cabal or coven of nefarious that has so interwoven themselves into the private lives of Guy and Rosemary to the fact that they have essentially adopted two new people into the coven as the parents of the unholy. And I just think it's really, really subtly if you want to find it and smartly done. Oh. And again, yeah, yeah. And again, a lot of it has to do with the consumption from the feminine. Yeah. Bye. So she wakes up and she's like, wow, what a fever dream that was. What kind of flu did I have last night? She wakes up still mostly naked. Yeah. And she's like, oh, God, my body hurts and this and that. And Guy is like, whoa, just like up and about. I got laid last night into his, you know, his thing is like, hey, can you wake up and make me breakfast? I got to be out of here, but. And how does he wake her up? Yeah. Big crack on the ass, not like a loving pet. Like, yeah, he's weird with her man. Yeah. And so she's, you know, observing her body. And she's got scratches, like all like, like some sort of cat just like went to town on her. And she's like, oh, what happened here? And he's like, oh, sorry. Like he's like, I got a little carried away last night. But don't worry, I trimmed them. And she's like, last night, he's like, yeah, I didn't want to miss baby night. Oh, we could have done it this morning. And he's like, I got a, I got a little carried away. I was loaded too. And I was kind of fired up by the, what did he say by the, I don't want to say necrosis of it. But yeah, I forget what he says what the word is, but essentially being into like the natural violence that just happened out of a passion. Brother, she was out cold. I know, right. I know. Yeah. So yeah, unconscious. Brave, right. And, but because he didn't want to miss it. And I don't, and I think what's also troubling about it is, I mean, I mean, this is like, I think for a couple, this would be a very troubling moment in a relationship. To discover this. And she kind of is like, okay, that's weird. Baby night, but as long as I'm pregnant, I'm going to be okay. So she's oddly able to look past it, but for an audience, I was like, how is this okay? And anyone's book of like, yeah, I still just, I went for it. And you're just unconscious. And it was like, now, whatever. Who men might be the only moment of the film, right? And then the part up also, if we're talking about invasion of privacy, is there any more debaucherous invasion of privacy than the acts that go on in the bedroom between two people shared between, I don't know, 25? Yeah. We've had three weeks in a row, like various different assaults on the body, right? Yeah. Cheryl in the woods. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Elizabeth through Frankenstein. Monster, so. Exactly, yeah. And then this scene, too. And it's, yeah, they're all handled in three very different ways. But this is, you know, the crux of this film is we need to get a conception moment that way we can start taking care of this child, this embryo, this savior for us. So she goes to the doctor, my guy Charles Groden here first. And Dr. Hill, yeah, looks like this is her OB. And he's like, yeah, this is good. I'll do some blood work. But yeah, it does seem like you're pregnant and she's just delayed it. I mean, she doesn't care at this point. She's like, I don't care how it happened. I have purpose now. I don't have to just, you know, stay her in the home. I think there's a real fulfillment that she's looking forward to of being a mother, right? Yeah. And this is where things start getting really weird. We're more invasion of privacy. And he's like, well, you don't need to take any prenatal vitamins or any vitamins. So I got all the vitamins you have right here in this shake here. You have this gray shake here and she's just like, oh, this is OK, but I'll do it. And I want to make you an appointment. You don't need to go see Dr. Hill anymore. I got the doctor we all work with, Dr. Sapestine. So you're going to go to, can you imagine, no, your neighbor's like, you're not going to that doctor. You're going to go to our doctor. You know, say no, Rosemary. Come on. Right. Looking for the right candidate. Any sensible person's going to push back and say, well, I don't know. I'm not listening to you, but they found sweet little me, Mia Farrow, Rosemary Row. And yeah, they're able to influence her. They're able to roll over her because all she wants at the end of the day is a healthy baby boy or girl. And yeah, listen to these people, they seem good, good intention to begin with. But man, there's just a cadre of red flags along the way. Mia Farrow is so good at being the assumeable in this. Yeah. I don't want to say mousy because that's more Shelley Duvall in the shinings or, but there is this kind of, oh, the haircut's going to turn it in a mousy. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And we may as well talk about that here in just a second. That's like the very next scene. But this meek and weak, and again, it's the pregnancy that also does a lot about work too, that just withers her away into a nothing. Yeah. I think she's really good at it here because I do like the long hair. I mean, she's really, really beautiful. But this transformation that she goes through once she's pregnant is, you know, horrific for her. Gloria Steinem had to be beside herself watching this, especially at that time because the word no is so foreign to any character that Rosemary represents. Like she essentially does get a no from her husband on the let's make love the way he's just sort of tepidly goes about it. I'd like to say she's really poor leading at reading cues, but I don't think that's the case at all. I think she is so concerned about being polite and being seen as societally proper that she can't even turn down the most ridiculous of gifts of all time. So let's go back to the pendant that's got the stinky substance in there because yeah, it's hers now. Right. She's been given that gift by many full on stinking. And I guess it's pretty like in this sort of weird globe kind of thing. I mean, we took this. How about a Ruby? How about just a Ruby? We took this from Terry's dead body is I'm going to give it. I'm going to get it. It's yours now. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I know it smells terrible. But you'll get used to it. Jesse, here's some deodorant that doesn't work. Merry Christmas, Jesse. You're going to smell terrible, but it comes in a really nice box. Merry Christmas. You filthy animal. Yeah. Over and over and over and over. She just can't say no even to the moose bit or the mouse bit. You eat that up. Stop being so silly. Takes a couple more bites, spits it out, but she like any person who had a shred of self-respect would say, man, go pick rocks, dude. I'm not you eat my moose, shove it up your ass, right? Any number of things. It's almost like she doesn't have enough respect for her own self until about later. There's a midpoint kind of change for her character where she's like, ah, ah, no more. No more of this. I'm not eating that shit anymore. I'm not going to that doctor anymore. The only one who's really batten in her corner is hutch. Hutch, yeah. For hutch, man. Did you notice in the phone call from Dr. Hill when the blood work comes back that interesting short conversation that they have about a return for more blood work? This is also setting an important question I think later in the film and is that is Dr. Hill ingratiated into the coven or is he just obtrusively naive about who he's bringing back into her life? I think he's in on it. I do too. He literally has received blood work from her that day and then says, I want you to come back in X amount of time for more blood work. I guess in 1968, maybe blood work was a thing on the month when you are mostly not, especially in this film because it's so layered about how far the reach of this coven goes. I don't know if Rosemary is ever able to fully grasp how broad that expands is. I think it's pretty broad. If you listen to Romans, Johnny Cash, I've been everywhere. Oh yeah, right. I've been in Nebraska. I've been to Baltimore. I did a lot of shit in Alaska. I think they've been trying this all over the place and they have this network of people all over. It's just the crux of it is right here at the Bramford in Central Park, New York City. Boy, that poses a question, Jesse. That means how many times have they brought the devil incarnate a lot to try. Try to sire a child with whatever woman is next on the list. I think it's been unsuccessful thus far. I think all the hosts have rejected it and/or the women have probably at some point either terminated or killed themselves or have removed themselves from the chessboard of their plans. They haven't had a successful host yet. Oh yeah, they've gone through a lot of people. They've got to meet a very specific criteria, right? Guys got to meet a very specific set of criteria. It's all in the plans of trying to bring the most perfect host into the world here and this thing just starts eating her away. I mean, here she gets the haircut, which is in the book. I mean, this isn't just a Mia Farrell thing or promotion for Vidal Sassoon. She goes to Vidal Sassoon in the book, too. I think short hair can work on a lot of people. It depends. I prefer long hair, but I think short hair can work, but this hack job they do to her, I mean, this haircut is doing no one any favors. From the second she walks in, I mean, guys like pretending he's practicing for his new play and he's like, "Oh, what the hell did you -- what have you done? I got a new haircut." I mean, she wants to just switch it up a bit, mix it up a little bit. He tells her, "This might be the worst decision of your entire life." Your entire life and everyone else, right? Maybe it was Mary and you, buddy. Yeah. Everyone just gives her a hell about this thing. Oh. And it does look atrocious. It looks awful. Yeah. It did something about the front fringe that just was cut. I don't know. Even the Beatles were like, "Man, that's a bad bowl cut." Yeah. So, it's just -- but it looks -- but I will say, as she starts to wither away and we need to look at the husk of her former self that was left behind at the beginning of the movie, it certainly helps because God, when Hutch comes over, "My God, Rosemary, you look terrible." Yeah. Not only is this haircut the worst thing I've ever seen in my life, but your skin's gray. You look like an alien. You look like one of the grays. She looks bad. I mean, heavy, heavy. I make up for dark circles. Yeah. Thin, thin, thin, thin. And they host a party around this time with more friends of their age, the people that they're closer to, Minnie and Roman are not invited. Much to Minnie Shagriem, where she's like, "Well, I can hand out the food for you at the party. I can do something for you." You're like, "No, I got it. I got it. Keep away." I really like that moment where the friends are like, "They're all in the kitchen." And they're just like -- and she's beside herself, she's like, "I've had this pain in my gut for, like, since November, it's January." They're like, "Rosemary, that's not normal. I mean, that's usually a sign. I mean, you need to get that jacket." But Dr. Stiff joins. Yes. Dr. Saperstein says it's normal. Like you need to go see another doctor and he'll have a few cassobetis in the background looking through the glass like, "Oh, what's going on in here?" And they kick him out. And then, you know, we get this scene after they leave. I haven't drunk it for the last three days, I've thrown it away. What? I've made my own drink. Is that what those bitches were giving you in there? Is that their hint for today? They're my friends. They're a bunch of not very bright bitches who are on their own goddamn pit. All they said was get a second opinion. Rosemary, you've got the best doctor in New York. You know who Dr. Hill is? He's a Charlie nobody. That's who he is. I'm tired of hearing how great Dr. Saperstein is. Well, I will have to pay. Saperstein will have to pay Hill while it's out of the question. Uh-uh. No, I'm not changing. I just want to go to Dr. Hill and get a second opinion. I won't let you do it, Rome. I mean, because it's not fair to Saperstein. Not fair to-- what are you talking about? What about what's fair to me? If you want a second opinion, you tell Saperstein and let him decide-- No, I-- I won, Dr. Hill. At least I thought it was perfect. It's not fair to me. I know how to feel. Rome? Rosemary? What is it? Stop. What? Pain, stop. Stop. Stop. Interesting. I really like that scene there. That feels very stage theatrical. So Casa Betty's really knows how to play just a one-er, right? In a one-bedroom thing, go back and forth, and Mia Farrow certainly holds her own here too. But, yeah, it's not going to be fair to Saperstein this time. We've got to think about what he wants to. Okay. Yeah, it's really troubling. But this is the first signs of I need to take back this body of mine. I need to take back ownership of this as he's just keeping tabs on everything. But then something interesting happens. It's almost as if the embryo's listening to this coral outside and he's like, "Well, I better chill out in here," because the pain goes away. And instead of going to get that second opinion, like she said she was, we cut to a montage and she's as happy as a clam. I mean, they're getting the baby room ready. She's in great spirits. It's like night and day for her. She's looking a little healthier, right? What do you think of all that? I mean, it's just another just red flag scene. The stop moment is it's not fair to Dr. Saperstein. And she said it a little bit after I did. But no, I mean, she gets credit for it, obviously. What about me? And again, there's that same space. She is so unassumable that she just becomes whatever she needs to be to get along, going along to get along. And the response from her husband is nothing short of astonishing. And when is she going to snap? Not only is something not right, but he's keeping it not right. And that then is the problem for Rose. And when she gets there, then we're moving into the third act and we're starting to head down that path. But she's gone through a rather torturous ordeal to just be able to say, essentially no, stand up for self and say no. I think he phrased it really well when she starts to take control of her own body. I think most of the film, she's been so willing to give it away. And around this moment, although the baby settling down inside her just buys itself more time and I would absolutely believe that the son of the devil could manipulate that. Yeah. Sure. So hiding in plain sight, yeah, Rosemary is just being put through hell. Literally. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. And it's at this time, you know, hutch is like, look, I've been doing some research on the house. I've been doing some just digging on like some of the people involved. You need to come meet me because there's some stuff you need to know about. And he never meets gets the meeting to eat. She calls his house or some housekeeper there or something, a nurse or something. He's like, oh, yeah, he's in a coma and you're like, what? And he's in this coma for about three months and then just dies. And so you're one source of the person that was looking out for you is just gone. But she left him all these, you know, books and stuff. So she starts thumbing through them and is just like, wait a minute, what? What's this? This book is an anagram for a certain name, the Roman cast of that, right? Yeah, a lot of really troubling evidence about what they're doing next door, how she's going to take it. But I guess Guy has the hardest job. Guy has to keep Rosemary level and grounded and convinced enough until that baby's born, right? Yeah. So if you look away from any type of research or, you know, looking into anything, we'll get a little of that here. This father was a martyr to it. You know how he died? Honey, it's 1966. This was published in 1933. There were covens in Europe. That's what they're called, the congregation, covens in Europe, in America, in in Australia and they have one right here, that whole bunch, the parties with the singing and the flute and the chanting, those are espits, they're Sabbats. I don't get excited. I mean, don't get excited. Read what they do, Guy. They use blood in their rituals and the blood that has the most power is baby's blood and they don't just use the blood, they use the flesh too. Rosemary, for God's sakes, they're not setting foot in this apartment ever again and they're not coming within 50 feet of the baby. They're old people, they have a bunch of old friends, Dr. Shan happens to play the recorder. Not taking any chances with the baby's safety. We're going to sublet and move out. We are not. Oh, yes we are. We'll talk about it later. Yeah, she's getting close to what they're doing, right? And it's, you know, at this point when she's in that kind of paranoia state where, you know, she's trying to prove like what she knows to anyone that'll listen, everyone's just not giving her the time of day, she's walking in the streets of New York, almost getting hit by cars, she's like, who's going to listen to me? Who's going to believe that I think that there's something nefarious going on upstairs next door and they want my baby for something, right? Yeah, it's all very troubling. It's, yeah, the girl who cried wolf, right? I mean, who's going to believe, you know, this pregnant woman that, oh, yeah, witches or want my baby or Satanists want my baby, right? But she's really good here. But this is also Matt. This is also kind of where the film like really lulls for me is this kind of second X log where we're just kind of sitting in the apartment, we're going to the streets, we're going to different offices or different phone calls. And this is like 217 and something about this little middle chat because the end finale here is really excellent. I really, I'm bored with the beginning, but yeah, here is I'm tuning out a little bit. I think on initial viewing and this one of let's move it along a little quicker or I'm all about a slow burn, but I don't know, I just, I lose a little bit of interest around this point in the movie. The unraveling of the mystery of we all are witches is that's what student for you, you just don't care. Yeah, because I already know that we're doing something nuts. Okay, so that brings up a really interesting point because we've often said one really effective technique and thrillers is to let us know more than the people that are being thrilled in the theater in this in the movie, right? Yeah. This certainly is the case. We know that that conception scene is really happening. She's in the dark. She's all around as we can tell. I feel a little similar to the way you do and that the influence of the Hill versus Saperstein Doctor bit here gets to be about 10 minutes too long. The movie's 217. Yeah. And I know that Polanski really wanted to adapt a faithful version of the book, which probably was the way that they negotiated it. Yeah. Oh, he turned in a 272 page screenplay. Really? Yeah. That's just that he just gave the book. He just did the book as a screenplay. Yeah. All right. That's a long screenplay. That's incredibly long. Jesus. Yeah. That's actually a miniseries. Yeah. It's several episodes right there, yeah. But there's a way to streamline all of this that gets us to the playing anagrams on the floor with the Scrabble pieces, the discovery of Roman being Thomas Mercado, or whatever the hell his name is, descendant, the lineage of the things that have happened in that apartment. We've sort of already covered that with hutch. Yeah. And although I like the book and I like that the book creates another area for Rosemary and Guy to have an argument. I think that that can also be sped up. Yeah. I also think too of like, I really like in the Omen, I like the quest that Gregory Peck and David Warner go on to find the origins of where did my son come from? And that leads them to this monastery. That leads them to, okay, we found out how this leads them to the cemetery. And then that leads them to like, to go find the weaponry to defeat this thing. So it's kind of like a quest, right? And I think you could have done something like that here and made it like very New York where Rosemary's like putting all these different pieces from like the library, a museum, a piece of art, and she's really putting the story together on how they're attacking her body and like what the ultimate plans are. I mean, if she opens up like a book in a mural and it's like this like black baby carriage, that could have been like a nice harbinger of what's to come. Yeah. Instead, I mean, she's waiting in rooms and waiting for blood results and she's talking to Saperstein and she's talking about she's in a cab. I mean, it kind of just doesn't go anywhere until we get to that scene with Charles Groden again. I think what you're saying is if we play into the more supernatural pursuits in putting the puzzle pieces together, then I think the admission of what she has discovered to whomever is willing to listen to this woman who at this point can't find a single ally on the planet. And if they do their debt, if she does, they do their dead, plays better. When she goes and talks to Hill, she's talking about witchcraft and she just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you got to be thinking like, there's no way this guy's going to believe her. If you take that same process and you do it through like, you know, this totem that you found here, this map that you looked up, whatever five or six pieces that you want to do that feature some of the cool monuments and places that are offered in New York and could really play into more of that gothic feel, then I think the conversation that she has with Dr. Hill, Charles Groden is far more interesting and the lengths that this coven has gone through, which I think we've pretty well established has been from Fairbanks to Omaha, gets to be expanded and we start to realize like, man, she's not just up against like a group, like coven, like a bunch of old weirdos, old weirdos. She's up against this conglomerate that is global and has huge, huge backstory and tentacles into everything. And I think it creates a greater villain. And this is plenty for her as it is now, trust me, she's up against it anyway. But the conversation of, and I think they're witches and the name and then this is so much better of, and I found the scepter and then this piece of art, like those are two different stories and one of them theatrically plays far better. Yeah, and I just want a better sense of urgency. It's just like this baby's about to pop at any second and, and you know what, you know what New York has that every place has, doctors, you know what New York has that not every place has, cool museums, history, immigration, there's so much more environmental things they could play with that. I think elevate this. Yeah, absolutely. And especially in the 1968 midnight cowboy era, New York, I mean, that would look great, right? I mean, we're really photographing that city in a very metropolis derelict because think of how Friedken shoots New York in the French connection. I mean, it's the nastiest city you've ever seen in your life, right? So yeah, I think there's just room that I just, and I think I wonder if I need a little bit more with the exorcist is going to provide me in just a few short years, a little bit more of that supernatural twinge. And this could just be the source material is just a little bit more understated and to the point. Well, like a little bit more of the supernatural in the faria would go a long way for me. Like, yeah, let me see guy do something a little unnatural. Let me see something. Let me have a dream where she sees that devil guy again, right? I mean, I think that's great imagery. I just, I don't know if I get enough of it in the movie, and especially by the end, I'll save it. But, you know, I could use a little bit more there too. The word that I keep coming to is provincial. Yeah. So Ty West finished the X trilogy this summer with Maxine and I think we both really like decks. I know we both really, really like Pearl. That's the good one. Yeah. And then Maxine's a fucking shit show. It's a disaster. Yeah. And how that became the penultimate, what, watch it. It's terrible. Pearl might as well have taken place in Omaha. Yeah. Middle of America farm community. I got one shot to get out of here and it's how much I can dance. And provincial plays there because there's nothing there talking to pigs, performing for the horse, the tractor's broken, go pick the eggs from the chicken coop like it's in New York City, provincial, and it's set up in a way where the apartments that they live and kind of have a community, a larger community. There's just more that you can draw from that makes it not feel quite so provincial. It can't just be, I have pre-partum or post-partum depression and I'm just going to go have a conversation with the doctor about it. Now here's one more consideration, Jesse. You and I will never go through pre or post-partum anything. Could witness it. And thank God my mind didn't have to go through any of that. So I'm grateful that, but maybe that's the space that is one of the factors in this that might play better for a female audience than a male audience. If you buy into the belief that Rosemary is going through an episode mentally, that is because her chemicals are out of whack because she's pregnant and this is all in her head, then I think that you can make it, I don't like it, but you can make a case that that's what this film is about. That's going to play better for the feminine than it is the masculine because although my heart goes out and I think that's terrible for those that might suffer from that, I don't necessarily, and it doesn't have to be that I relate to it. I'm just saying we might be having a supernatural piece in this because we like the quest and we like the Joseph Campbell pieces, pieces, pieces, whereas the betrayal of your own body as you try to bring life into the world can be very, very terrifying. I can relate to that. And maybe being a homebound and having no one that listens to you and feeling the world is against you with this huge responsibility knocking at your door in a matter of weeks to months might play better provincially in the birthing space for females. But let me, the scene here that I can definitely relate to with Rosemary is this word dump that she gives Dr. Hill, which is like, now there's the thing and they've done this and they've done that and he's just kind of like, he's just notting. What I really appreciate about it in a very, and it's in a very heartbreaking way is she's finally found, I mean, she's been wanting to come back to this guy for a good majority of the film. And she's finally there, he's listening to her just spew this word vomit right of this crazy talk. I mean, if you heard someone tell you this, you'd be like, okay, I guess. And at the end, he's just like, certainly appears so and there's like this look of jubilation on her face of like, someone actually listened to me, and he's like, let me make a few calls, let me get you a spot at, you know, you know, at the hospital, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And let's sign. Yeah, let's, let's get that, let's get that taken care of for you. And she's just elated and can finally let her guard down a bit and can finally relax. She goes into like a side room, Oh my God, I'm so I'm just relieved I can take a nap and just kind of wait. And that disarming right that disarming trust because when she wakes up from another weird dream where she's holding a baby and there's all her real friends around the baby. She wake and stuff these bright lights shining and Dr. Hills got the door open and here comes Casa Vettis and Zapperstein, it's like, Oh man, like there's an infamous story of one of Jeffrey Dahmer's last victims that escaped his hell apartment and made it to police authorities. And you know, Dahmer was able to catch up with them and kind of talk his way out of, you know, what was essentially this hostage and assault and convince the cops to like, no, no, he's my lover and we're just having a moment, I'll take it back and I'll take care of this and took him back to the apartment. The police are just like, yeah, sure, yeah, whatever. The gay lover's coral and he takes him back to the apartment and kills that guy. So that disarming effect of I'm in a place of safety with law enforcement or health care establishment, I can put my trust in what I tell this person, they're going to believe me. And for Charles Grode and in that little wispy mustache, he's gotten that scene to holding that door open for the evil to come make its way back into the movie. That makes my heart sink for Rosemary because she truly has no one, right? No one. She's really backed up in a corner. So even though it's a word vomit dump of, do you believe me? Do you not? There's something really eloquent and very tragic about how that all plays out, right? Because back to the Bamford, we go, right? Back we go. And the moment that she wakes up and he's not there and you see Dr. Saperstein, good old Ralph Bellamy come around the corner with husband in tow. You realize not only is this bad, but it's even worse than bad because now she's betrayed the trust or at least the secrecy that they thought they held and her being tight-lipped about all of this. Now she spilled the beans and what lengths are we going to go to? And it's pretty graphic. It's hold her down and injectable sedation during birth. How does that work? I don't know. I guess they just dig around and fish it out, not to be gross, but that's movie is insinuating. You can't push when you are not coherent. So baby is born and we get two really interesting takes, right? Guys came up beautiful, it was a boy, everything was fine, and then you get Dr. Saperstein still born. At this point, she's just a disaster. And then guys switches it to. I didn't want to tell you that. I thought it was going to be too hard on you after the episode. You were really high and you were spun out and I just wear a mess and I didn't think you could handle it right now. But don't worry, Rose. We can have some more. We can have some more. And trying to get her looking past what has happened and asking questions about where her dead baby is to the future. Heart goes out, I think, is a sad way to put that. This woman has no shot. Yeah, there's very few outs for her at this point, if any, yeah, you're right. But a lot of clues here, they got her drugged up like, so she's in some state of lucidness and, you know, influence under whatever pills, you know, this mystery group's given you. So she stops taking them and she starts hiding them because she's like, I need to get lucid again, right? I mean, I'm just, I can't. I can't make heads or tails of anything. And everyone's acting really weird and I hear crying next door. And then the breast milk that they're saving, right? I mean, she's lactating and she's like, why don't you just throw that away and Laura Louise is like, oh, I'm just like, we're saving it. I just, I don't know, I'll throw it away later. They're feeding something up there. So she's got crazy suspicions. And then we get to the moment, right? She's like, okay, that's enough. No one's here. I'm getting out of this bed. I'm going to find, I'm going to get down to the bottom of this. I'm going to follow the cries and this cat and mouse she's doing through the apartment, through the narrow passageway, but through the lion, the witch and the wardrobe into their very strange apartment, right? Apartment 7A. The paintings are very or on them as Bosch, like really hellish. She keeps going and it looks kind of normal, right? I mean, when you see a group of satanists, I mean, you imagine a bunch of people in red robes around a pentagram with fire. Goat heads. Goat heads and we're sacrificing and there's human blood everywhere. Nah, it's just like it's essentially a socialite evening, socialite evening and we're just here sitting around drinking some scotch, vodka blushes, but there's something really ominous sitting in the corner and it's this black is black bassinet with this upside down cross mobile. And she's like, what is going on here? And I think everyone is shocked that she's there, but also like, she's going to find out eventually and or this is all part of the plan. Let's let her see this thing. Let's let her. Mother. Yeah. And yeah, this moment when we, it'll be the audio that ends the episode, but walks up to it and pulls the sheep back and just ghastly whore on her face, right? It's eyes, what have you done to its eyes? He has his father's eyes guy has normalized. Yeah. Doesn't have these goat eyes, uh, well, his real father, Satan and hail Satan. Yeah. His name is Adrian. And oh my God, these old people just going around hell, Satan and God is dead and Satan is back. And here we go. It's our year. Yeah. Did just something really kind of comics are something comical about, uh, um, seeing these old phogies just go hell Satan, right? I mean, not, I mean, it's from like a black metal, you know, group possibly, but not these people. No, but think of the year, right? I mean, it's, uh, the baby's born June 28th, 1966. So six, six, six, right? Yep. Uh, sort of fit fit in that mold. And I think a guy, it's interesting. It's hard to imagine pinpoint guy here because he does seem really regretful at the end of this movie here. He can't even like look, he's in the kitchen. He can't even look at her. He's trying to plead with her. Hey, I mean, this is going to pout really well for us. We can try again, don't hold it against me. He does kind of revert back to a more loving husband, but she didn't want none of that. She spits in his face. She doesn't want to believe any of what's going on here. And man, just everyone is just like hell's sake. So what's the, what's the game? Do I kill myself? Do I jump out the window like, uh, Terry Janoffrio? Do I go up to the bassinet with this knife and kill this thing? Or do I stay to become a mother to this thing? Um, I don't know. And the film doesn't really give us an answer, uh, of where this is. I mean, I mean, the logical out is like, you know, just, I think you need to end both lives, right? Yeah. Cause he can't let this thing walk around the face of the earth. No, but Laura Louise is, man, she is shaking this bassinet back and forth. You're rocking him too hard. He's crying. And so you see those motherly instincts set in and she goes up. And this is where I think I've always had just this weird recollection of this movie. I could have sworn you see a little hand come up, a little clot hand. But man, give me, I'll take a little claw or you can give me a hook or whatever this thing has. Or maybe she puts it in her arms and it's just off screen and we just see her kind of rocking it because now she's kind of made her a choice to whether she's going to stick around or not. But man, this is a dark ending because I don't think, I mean, at least the exorcist ends on kind of a hopeful note, we beat, we beat the devil. There was some sacrifices along the way and maybe we can have a normal life down the line, but not here. This is for 1968 and why we like this time period. There's no sugar coating the direness of this ending, right? I guess it's happy ending for Roman because if you believe what the doctor said that he's only got a few months left to live that at least he's going to finally get to see the fruits of his labors of trying to sire the antichrist into the world. He again takes on another important role and it's the continued seduction of this family. And as what's her name is rocking that cradle like she's on a roller coaster. What the hell is she doing? Then Roman talks Rosemary into playing the role of mother. He needs a mother. Adrian needs a mother. Look at your child Rosemary and you can see again, reverted back to docile, unassuming, easily to boss Rosemary and then comes upon that bassinet or that crib or that carriage. And you can see in a nice moment for me, a pharaoh acting wise, the judgment goes away. The shock and horror goes away. And what kicks in what kicks in is the motherly instincts of I have to care for this little thing that I was lived inside me and that I brought into the world and all that mother stuff. And you can see by the time we fade out, dare I say, she's happily ready to be mom. I think that's one way. I think so. Yeah. She's accepted what this reality is going to be now. For however long they need Rosemary, right? And then yeah, we just we pull out from the thing and it's yeah, you've been watching Rosemary's baby. You have a sound on that? I'll play it at the very, very end, but yeah, it's exceptionally troubling. But again, in another instance of the film, I think, I mean, does a good job of, you know, what you don't see scary than what you do see and I'm fully leaving that philosophy. Yeah. But I kind of want a little something here. I kind of want to see what that baby look. I mean, the carriage enough is grotesque or the bassinet, but give me give me a little hand. Give me a little pick him up and a tail falls out of the blanket or something that might be too much. Just like, let me see a little visage. I mean, if it's like this, like this, like black skin or, you know, something. Yeah, a red eyes or grayish maybe has grayish opaque skin too, a little something to just be like, wow, you know, this thing is, yeah, this, this is the devil right there. Yeah. So yeah, that's a capper on the story itself. I think I have just a couple of little notes here. So this was filmed primarily in Los Angeles, you know, Hollywood back lots and sets and stuff. But, um, plan skin cast of Eddie's clash quite a bit on the set because, you know, plan ski was, you know, all about, you know, directing actors and let's follow the script and, you know, cast of Eddie's wants to go off book and like improvise a little bit. So those two methodologies, I think, didn't really play well together and you can't really tell watching it. Anything, it makes cast of Eddie's even more just like on edge for, for most of the film. What do you think of this? I have rumor next to it because I heard it spoken as back and I heard it spoken as rumor. Alfred Hitchcock was first offered the chance to direct and declined. Wow. Can you imagine? I mean, that's, I mean, latter Hitchcock, which a lot of that isn't terribly good in my opinion, but this idea in Hitch's hands could have been amazing. Right. Yeah. That's a good what if. I mean, a Mia Fair. I mean, you could may as well cast her if it's his prototype. Sure. Yeah. But what do you think of that? What do you think? Do you think, what do you think he would bring that, you know, plan ski didn't? Hmm. Cause Hitch never really did it like, like a birth, like story like that before. Barney would probably be the closest thing, I think. Sure. What would he bring? I think he would probably showcase Farrow equally well, but in a different manner than the way that Polanski did. I think that, you know, Polanski really does play into the sexuality of Farrow and the nakedness of that sexuality objectification. Hitchcock had a way of doing that, but in a way without showing anything. Yeah. And so I wonder if he plays her as the ice princess who's repressed, and then that gets into the male role that often is played in the Hitchcock film, and that is the pursuit of the impersuable. How are we going to get her? Yeah. And if you stick to that Marnie theme or if I stick to that, think about like Sean Connery chasing down Tippie Hedren and that and all of the problems that go along with it. That could have been an interesting take, but I don't know if that works because her as frigid or chaste plays a little differently than this does. I think, I mean, he certainly knew how to use women in this film and an effective manner as a tool. Yeah. And maybe the one thing he would do, I think even better, and it's good in the movie, which is like the audience's privy to the events before the characters really kind of before Rosemary is able to really piece it and that was hitches, bread and butter. I mean, I think that idea would have been really stretched out really well, like the nefarious intentions of this coven for the audience versus when his lead character is going to finally piece all that together. I don't know. I think that's a great what if because, I mean, you know, I'm not a huge torn curtain, topaz, frenzy, just this latter era hitch, like after Marnie, there's not a lot there for me that I go back to. I mean, this could have been a pretty good swan song for him. So interesting, $3 million budget, $33 million gross. It was very successful. Ruth Gordon won Best Supporting Actress. It made a made for TV sequel in 1976 with Gordon's actually in that with Patty Duke as Rosemary. And then Ira Levin wrote a sequel novel in 1997 called Son of Rosemary. I haven't read either. Ira Levin of Stepford Wives fame, right? I kind of want to spoil the end of that book because it's like total BS and I think people, it was generally panned. But at the end of the book, because the son Rosemary is all about, you know, bringing this child to, you know, child rearing and Rosemary is still, you know, suspicious and whatnot. But the end of the book is apparently the entire events pre post conception and the rest of Rosemary's baby and all of a sudden the Rosemary's was just a dream that she. Oh, no. He did. Yeah. That's terrible. I know. It seemed like a real big cop out and they did do a TV miniseries with Zoe Zalbana on NBC a few years back, which I never watched. It was like a two night thing, which kind of adapts the whole first book. And then I mentioned the new prequel film that came out yesterday. And so yeah, they've done some work around this franchise, this series. But yeah, it's reputation is, you know, it's on a lot of these lists. It's a heavy hitter. It was on the bravo's moments. It was the conception scene, right? But yeah, I think it can be interesting to see your rating and kind of how we encapsulate all the analysis of this. But what's your favorite tasting note, seeing sequence moment of Rosemary's baby? Favorite moment is probably watching her struggle with Cassavetes after the evening party finishes after their house party finishes. Because I think that's where we start to see the traction that maybe leads into not what's the best third act. That's the end of the act too. Because her basically saying I'm going to do this and her starting to find her feet in the relationship. And I feel like we've all been pulling for her to get there. So I'll brief, albeit brief and fairly fleeting when it does arrive. I find myself cheering for her there. I'm glad she's finally see it. There's a lot of moments, but I think I'm going to go with that one right now. That's a good one. Uh huh. Yeah. And I think I'll go with I'll go with the end scene there, even though I want a little bit more, I think it's really well staged and the emergence and it's really mysterious and ominous. And just all those old fogies just like beside themselves with jubilation, right? Yeah. I was like, what do these meetings look like with all just all these old people here? They just strip down and chant. I mean, like what is going on here and what and that is the baby figure into all this. I mean, what do they teach in this thing? Yeah. Yeah. I think that the end is good and to take it into legendary status, I just I need I need to show me a ho of show me a ho of what's the moment of rosemary's baby, I we both have the same one, don't we? The conception has to be. Yeah. It's exceptionally troubling for a multitude of different ways that you can go back and how we're listening to. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, that was I think the right moment to pick on Bravo's list, but something about just the the the eyebrows on that that devil and it is cast of Eddie's made up to look like that. So is he getting possessed by this demon to take his wife is a demon replaced? Like what is going on there? I mean, the film doesn't really tell us, but it is very and the music too. I think the music is what takes it to another level. It's I'll play a little bit more here in a second. Coral and haunting. Yeah. Yeah. The gruesome moment in the images we get of the devil with her are not exactly long drawn in their quick shot suit, but there's that part at the end when she's got her her face turned to her right cheek and she's speaking to one of the onlookers and you can see her getting rocked and you can tell as she's having this conversation, the devil is just going to town. Yeah. And it's really, really off putting. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's the moment for sure. Who's the master distiller on Rosemary's baby? It's got to be Mia Farrow for me. I think she's terrific in this. I'm not a huge Mia Farrow fan and I can't say that I seek out her work, but she's really, really good in this. It's a great performance. It's a lot of just good acting. I mean, cast of Eddie's is really good. But man, I do really love Ruth Gordon in this movie. It's the right and that's your part of your lead villain, essentially, right? That's the two of the cast of Etz. I think Diane Wiest plays her in that new version because I mean, Ruth Gordon passed many years ago. Yeah. But there's something very domesticated and familiar about that, you know, performance. Like I said, I've seen the Hispanic version of that just my entire life growing up. And then when she shows up with, again, with that chaotic New York energy, I mean, she sells, I mean, she showed the first time you see her. She's wearing some gaudy, like white wig and too much makeup. That's impossible. She's just cantankerous. And then once she really starts to invade Rosemary's privacy is where she's really given room to shine. You don't want that person anywhere near you. And she sells it. She's really good. Yeah. How are you going to rate and grade Rosemary's baby? We have rocket, well, call single barrel and tippy top shelf. Where are you going for this one? Single barrel. It's really, really unique and original. And I was very worried that this is going to play poorly. And we were going to be like, gosh, we've referenced this film for five years, six years on this podcast, and neither one of us liked. I was really troubled. The part that I actually had to stop for a minute and go get a cup of coffee was when Rosemary began devouring the raw chicken liver. Yeah. Boy, oh boy. Yeah. As much as the conception scene was tough to watch and the birthing scene was tough to watch. And all of that was the crowning moments. There's these nice little subtle moments that happened in between those spaces for me that really rounded this movie out and gave it a lot of flesh and made it very, very multidimensional and troubling. And it made me think, yeah, man, sort of surprising single barrel rating for me. This is a very unique film, especially in 1968. This is a little space that's played out now. Like these aren't quite as unusual as it might have been in 1968, but going back to then and when this cut its teeth in that area, I got to give a lot of props to the design of the story, although I think the third act is a bit lacking kind of in the same spot that you did. The acting is terrific. It shot really well. It feels like New York, Cassavetes leaves me edgy and angsty because he'll just never sittled it, just set down and just listen and just be quiet. He just has constant emotion. Every force in the world is lined up against Rosemary and the movie finished and I kind of like whew, like when it was done because it was a bit of a ride for me. So that's a unique, so that's single barrel. Yeah, it's coming out of an era where they're not really making a lot of like devil or demon movies, not like this. And this is five years before the exorcist. So it's certainly putting it on the spotlight and I'm had to have been extraordinarily taboo when it came out. I mean, you're just like, wow, they made a movie about what? Right. Yeah, it's I'm going to go call plus single barrel minus I'm teetering back and forth. I think as you asked me when we sat down in here today before we hit record, what you think we're going to kind of sit with you, just kind of get an initial reaction. I kind of told you, I was like, I'm kind of in the same spot I was the first time I saw it. I mean, I think there's a lot to appreciate here. Phenomenal acting directed well, looks great, criterians, Blu-ray is immaculate. It just looks so good. But there's just moments where I do really struggle with like the interest level and I wish things would just move a little quicker. And like again, like I said, I'm all about a slow burn. I mean, I love especially in horror, I love slow burn horror, but like I wanted to like get to something quicker, right. And I think the reveal is executed well, just I just need, I just need a little bit more in that space. So I haven't done a full 180 on this one like I did with Texas Chainsaw. I mean, that one really icing a different tune about compared to my first viewing of that one. But yeah, this is well worth checking out for sure. I might want to read the book just to kind of see just how that plays out there in novel space. But yeah, I can't go all the way top shelf or all the way single barrel, but the poster itself is top shelf. The music score by Christoph Comida is really good and ominous. I love me some good, ominous horror music. Yeah. And yeah, I do think William Castle is that was a chance he took and he's laying the groundwork for the devil films of the 70s to take their place. Exorcist, Ken Russell's The Devils, Richard Donner's The Omen. I mean, we're going to spend a lot of time in that satanic space in the 70s. And then this is here. I mean, this is Polanski's first Hollywood film. This is a year before Sharon Tate is killed by the Manson group, right? And so this is kind of just an interesting weird little movie, right? Yeah. Yeah, I'll definitely watch it again, but I might have to check out that mini series with Zoe there to see just kind of how they played that out. I mean, it will be, it's NBC, so it won't be nearly as graphic, but yeah, it's a jam. I'm glad we picked this one because I knew we would have a lot to talk about in two hours, right? Wow. Short show this week. Really? Yeah, exactly. Up with what's coming next. I mean, if you were laying in bed and you heard that coming from your wall adjacent to you, right? Yeah. I might call the cops. I might, you know, move out, just leave my stuff there. It's been real, but I might look for something else, right? Yeah. But that's a wrap on the heavy hitters cask. I think some really hardy discussions on the evil dead Frankenstein and now Rosemary's baby. Three big films there, any recollections of the three, any things that surprised you? Like what are you taking away from these three specifically? You know, if you had told me that we were going to look at the run times of each of the three shows and say that the evil dead was going to be the one that was the longest and the longest show we've ever cut. Yeah. Wow. I would have said, you're full of crap. And what Matt, what rabbit hole did you take me down? Yeah. And the truth is you didn't, but we had a lot to talk about that. So the biggest record, I guess my recollection is I'm surprised that the evil dead in a good way. Yeah. I think the first show then a film that is probably number seven on my most favorite movies of all time, Frankenstein, and we did that one justice too. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But the evil dead coming in with that much to speak about really took me to a place of recognition on just maybe how underappreciated that film is generally speaking for the populace. Like people recognize it as a heavy hitter and whore, but just solid filmmaking. Mm-hmm. Yeah. From 19 year old Sam Raimi, right? That's amazing. Yeah. How about you? Ah, yeah. I just, I love, I love this space. I love, you know, anytime we get to talk about any type of whore. But yeah, I think I just looking back at Frankenstein and just realizing, man, that movie's almost in seven years, it'll be a hundred years old. The centennial of them. I mean, we haven't gotten to centennials yet other than like some chaplain stuff. Right. Yeah. Brought to us around 1922. So like we're getting there with that, but like a hundred years old. I mean, I really hope universal like does something really great for that anniversary for Dracula that like something cool at their parks or like re-release these movies. But to just have so much to say in a movie that's almost a hundred years old, one of the oldest films we've talked about on the show and then just to see kind of like James Will like super ahead of the curve when like we're just trying to figure out how to talk on screen. Yeah. And James Will's doing really intricate and amazing things there in a very subtexty way. So yeah, but yeah, I love that. And I think I would come into Rosemary's baby and it would be interesting and I'm kind of a little disappointed that I didn't change my tune enough, but I'll go back and I'll do more work. I'll see what I can figure out. I'm going to dive into the pros and just spend a little time read a little bit more about the movie. But yeah, it's one of those ones where I'm just like, I just want a little bit more from what's ultimately an amazing idea, right? Yeah. What if this woman brought in the act at birth, the Antichrist? I mean, that's just like if you get it, you get it. But what's coming next, Matt, it's my favorite time of the year. It's the pumpkin spice is flowing. People are buying candy, people are buying pumpkins, we're starting to buy pumpkins, you're wearing the shirts, we're getting, we're getting to the nitty-gritty with it. The weather's changing. It's getting a little more brisk in the mornings. And man, it's getting a little bit more slasher-ific around here. So the only way I'm able to decipher how long we've been doing this show is to know what year of the movie sequels we're in. And man, let's get to the sinister six of this year. Yeah. Yeah. In traditional fashion. Six, six, six. Yeah. Six, six, six. In traditional fashion. Going to Crystal Lake, Friday the 13th, part six, Jason Lives, an entry that might be in the upper echelon for me. It's going to really reinvent the character because we, you know, think of the Jason we've been dealing with. We've been dealing with the guy in the woods, mostly human. Last year we did with Roy the movie, the paramedic pretending to be Jason. Yeah. But Jason's back people, the man behind the mask, as Alice Cooper would say, and this is zombie Jason. We're going to do the Frankenstein to Jason and now have this undead thing walking around and the final Tommy Jarvis film next week bringing Jason back to the dead. And a film that really is some nice tongue in cheek with some Jason brutality. I think when people think of the character, I think this is probably the version you would most likely think of. I can't wait to talk about this, this particular entry because it's going to be a lot different than any of the ones we've covered thus far. Cool. I can't believe we're in round six of these. That was six fight. My gosh. And I will say here, I mean, if you ever seen this one? No, no. I've never seen this one. I'm going to get an uncharted territory for you here. Yeah. It's going to be a roller coaster here. It's going to be, it's going to be some dark unsettling waters. It's going to be some very questionable filmmaking choices. And then when we get to Halloween, I mean, you and I are going to be watching two different versions of the same movie. Yeah. Yeah. Six films in. How are these films turning along? Well, I think well, I don't remember where we left off. So it's worth revisiting now. When we finished the fives, which of the three did we say was in the best place and which was in the worst place? I would want to say, I think even though Roy, the movie was a questionable decision, I think you and I talked quite a bit about some of the subtle nuances in there, including do you remember? Do they watch place in the sun in the middle of that move? Yeah. I feel like that one was in probably the best space. Freddie was the dream child in a very jokey kind of haphazard way. And then Halloween five is so deep into the cult of Thorne that we don't even know what's going on there. So I think it was yet Jason, probably Halloween and nightmare. Let's see where we're coming out with this one and where we're going next. You know, I wonder. Yeah. In a couple years when we're playing in the spaces of eight, is it time to trade these ones in for scream, hell, razor and child's play? Well, I've thought about that because not every one of these franchises has the same amount of numbers. So essentially what we can do is because Halloween is going to take us a while, Jason will keep pace for a bit. We're going to lose nightmare at some point because once we get to nightmares remake, which oh boy, man, that that will be a very interesting conversation because that movie is directed by Samuel Bayer, the director of smells like Teen Spirit, the music video, which is a questionable choice to do a nightmare, an Elm Street remake, but we're going to lose nightmare at some point. So yeah, it might be time to bring in a ghost face, no, no, not three new, but like someone's got to replace nightmare and we booted and we just keep going. I think that's cool because what's interesting with those combos is, well, how did the remakes do things differently across all three of these franchises? And then Halloween's rebooted nature three times in, right? I mean, there's a lot of really great conversation there. And I know I can talk about those movies. So let's see how long we go next week. We won't do flighter nightcap because we'll keep it simple because we've asked a lot of those questions already, but yeah, we'll just get in and Jason lives, man. Jason lives. Cheers. The one thing I will share with you is Jason, when they get to the title, the credits of the film, Jason does do the gun barrel walk like James Bond and flashes the screen. So I think that's an indicator of, you know, what you're getting with that taking ourselves to quite too serious. Sure. Well, you got that coming to you next week. It's going to be a lot of fun. And then a new release coming out next week that you and I have been dying to talk about. So we'll fit that in as well, give you a week to check that out. But hey, it's been fun here, but hey, I got to get going. You got to get going. I got to get going. Yeah. But hey, before you before you take off, before you you jet off, do you want to go get some you want to go get some chocolate moose or do you want to chocolate mouse? Are you cooking it in a normal way or in a cauldron because that might change my answer? I want to make it in a Dutch oven for you. Ooh, I'm there. Okay. Sounds good. I was going to say you want to moose or do you want to you want a chicy, graced, graced stuff smoothie? Doesn't sound great. We'll see you all. We'll see you all next week, everybody. Have a good week, everybody. We'll see you in the dark. Thank you for listening to RySmile Films. Be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Stitcher, TuneIn, or if you listen to podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review while you're there. It really helps out the show. And for RySmile Films merchandise, go to teapublic.com. Rosemary's Baby is property of Paramount Pictures and William Castle Enterprises, and no copyright infringement is intended. Until next time, cheers. What have you done to it? What have you done to its eyes? He has his father's eyes. He's talking about guys' eyes are normal. What have you done to him, you maniacs? Satan is his father, not guy. He came up from hell and begat a son of mortal woman. Hail, Satan! Hail, Satan! Satan is his father, and his name is Adrian. He shall overthrow the mighty and lay waste their temples. He shall redeem the despised and revengeance in the name of the brand and the tortured. Hail, Adrian! Hail, Satan! Hail, Satan! Hail, Satan! Hail, Satan! Hail, Satan! He chose you out of all. The world out of all the women, the whole world, he chose you. He rang these things, because he warned you to be the mother of his only little son. His power is stronger than stronger. His might shall last longer than longer. Satan! No! It can't be! [BLANK_AUDIO]
