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You're likely listening to this on February 11th, 2019. I am so happy to kick off the third season and third year of "Under the Scales" with a great Mike Gordon interview. You all know him, of course, as the bass player for fish and his band, also called Mike Gordon, coincidentally, but he's a lot more than that. I got into it with Mike immediately and learned how in touch he is with his inner artist and how he cultivates that relationship and always strives for more. Whether it's filmmaking or bass or guitar or singing or songwriting, Mike is never satisfied. His collaborations are endless, it seems. He effortlessly drops names of consummate artists, authors, craftspeople, and with most of them, he's developed deep working relationships. All this, and I left a two hour interview with many questions still and a realization that I just scratched the surface. He and I both agreed we have much more to cover, so I'm sensing Mike will return to "Under the Scales" before long. As it is, our conversation will be presented in two parts. Part one is coming right up. Part two comes out next Monday, February 18th, the day before I go down to Mexico. It's 11 degrees in New Jersey as I record this intro and I'm excited for some warmth and sand and ocean and maybe hanging out a little with my Mexican cousin. We'll see. One of my favorite sponsors, Kush, actually, Kush Co Holdings is back in season three as well and I'm immensely happy about that. I'm also a customer and chances are that you are two and if you're not, you probably soon will be. Have you seen the amazing containers that cannabis and hemp products come in these days? I'm talking about those amazing joint tubes you can carry around in your pocket or the cool containers that edible products are in now. There's a revolution in packaging happening around the cannabis industry. In fact, it's already happened. Our sponsor, Kush Co, is largely responsible for incredible innovations that are so useful, we take them for granted. But these packages have to comply with strict state guidelines and be child proof and all that. Kush is on top of it. Kush Co Holdings is made up of Kush Supply Company. That's the company we're talking about now that does packaging and vape products. Then there's Kush Energy, which makes hydrocarbon gases and solvents. The Hybrid Creative, which is a design agency and Kalito Innovations, their research and development arm. Osiris and under the scales are proud to be involved with Kush Co Holdings. Thanks Kush. Our new sponsor, CBD Vermont, believes that healthy soils, strong local economies and plant-based wellness go hand in hand. That's why they work with organic farmers across Vermont to grow the highest quality hemp and produce full spectrum CBD extracts for wholesale and retail. 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Visit their online store at www.cbdvermont.com and enter the promo code under the scales for 15% off your order. They ship to all 50 states and internationally. That's CBDvermont.com and enter under the scales to get 15% off. Thanks CBD Vermont. Under the scales is extremely honored to have Mike Gordon as our season three inaugural guest. How are you Mike? I'm good and it's great to finally be on here. So thank you. I know it's been a long time coming. Season one, I had tray. Season two, I had tray. Season three, we're gonna mix it up a little bit and try to get all the other band members if possible. Cool. (laughs) So Mike, last time I saw you, you were flying way overhead in a silver space suit on New Year's Eve. (laughs) I really liked that. So thank you universe for providing that opportunity. I thought I would be scared. I don't always like heights and it was scary just in the right way. And at a certain point during the rehearsal, I just thought, I don't ever wanna come down. I just wanna stay high. (laughs) Well, space was the theme so high is appropriate, right? It was like Mercury and Santomis Santos, right? So, I mean, I got all that. I didn't get the walking food at the end unless that's what space smells like. You know, I'm not the planner of these things. And when that question was asked, the answer that came down the pipe was non sequitur. We thought it would be good to have a non sequitur. And why should I question that when I love non sequitur? So yeah, walking food, there you have it. All right, so that's the non sequitur. So space does not necessarily smell like pizza. It doesn't smell like pizza, but it certainly has slices of it walking across there. So the videos from that night are amazing to watch. And everyone after, you know, a fish in New Year's or any event probably sits like me, glued to see things that they've missed or from a different angle or whatever. But one of my absolute favorite videos came from the GoPro camera you had clipped to your base head. And not just the perspective, the visual. Filmed you as you were flying and you were playing and it showed like kind of you were very adept and so was Trey. You guys kind of, I guess that harness you were in allowed you enough motion that you could still play without a problem. - Yeah, I was a little worried. It would be too heavy, neck heavy with that thing on there or looked dumb or, but tried it and it worked great. And you know, just for a very brief history of fish members flying when we did the Down with Disease video in '94, we flew and it rigged up and it was so painful because they just had a metal wire going like next to each thigh, inside each thigh. And it was digging up and everyone, people hated it. - So harness technology has improved. - This time it's so much better. It was really comfortable. The thighs, the torso, the many points of, you know, elastic contact. But in the middle I was reminded, I had forgotten that I actually had a GoPro, well, it wasn't a GoPro, it was a spy cam on my base in the movie Rising Low that I made for one scene and I'm talking about the feeling of flying while playing. And I'm playing with Matt and Warren from Government Mule. And while I'm playing and you're seeing it through the GoPro, I fly up over the camera. So forward and over the camera. And I had forgotten all about that. But then actually the GoPro was, the camera was on the other side. It was on the bridge instead of the head and it was really close to the string. So even weirder looking. But I didn't realize I had kind of done that before. But this was higher and it was super fun. And the Madonna headset, Mike, everything. I'm on board for as many times as people want me up there. - That's awesome. And the best thing to me about it was it caught the vibration of your base. The unamplified sound of your base, which was so cool. - I really liked hearing that. And it's a different bass with different strings. Round round strings. It's a grittier sound. Little more like, I don't know, Getty Lee or Chris Qui or something. People that go for that really edgy sound. But I really liked hearing it through the instrument. You can hear these tapes of John Antwhistle playing with The Who and it's only his bass. And they're on YouTube. But it's not a mic that's on the bass. It definitely gives you a different experience. - Yeah, it's like just the vibrating strings before it's like pumped through thousand watt amplifiers and effects and hundreds of speakers at Madison Square Garden. It's like a, it's a sound that you really don't get to hear during a show that almost ever. - They should put like little contact mics on everything. And then you get to hear that the way it's really going down. Insect perspective. - That would not be a mixing problem at all, would it? - Well, contact mics everywhere. It could be like an insect coach tour where you get that perspective. - Now you and your band have announced an amazing tour and we're going to get all to that. I want to kind of go through a Mike Gordon retrospective. But while we're on Santos, it would behoove me. It would sort of be remiss for me not to ask you one question that's sort of been haunting me a little bit. And the song Santos, which we brought up, came of course from the Causevote Voxed Halloween set. And my, you know, the Osiris podcast network has already done Causevote Voxed to death. So three or four podcasts already came about it. So we don't need to really go there except to clarify this one question. And that is Trey explained through interviews that he had recorded a bunch of drum beats watching people dance in Nashville. And he recorded them with his voice into his phone, right? And those beats became the basis. This is just to, you know, jump in if I'm wrong, became the basis for jams that you guys created for the silver sphere set in curveball, which never happened. - No, I was after the silver sphere. What happened is in getting ready for curveball, we were working with a moment factory and all the projections that were going to happen. And we went into the sound stage in LA and it was really cool, I got to say. It was a great dreamy experience because they made the whole room dark and the different band members were spread around and divided. So I couldn't see them and the room was pretty dark. And then each person had a camera and the camera had a lens that would make the image look round so they could project it onto spheres. And, but before that, we all had talked, the artists that would be doing the digital imagery and us. And that is when Trey was sort of bringing up the point that, you know, we play at the gorge and the fish shows over. What are people doing in the parking lot? They're having disco dance parties. And really, that's a vibe. These are festive events. They're not looking for like, it's more fun to be dancey and like party vibe, Halloween, then being all dour and, you know. So we already were starting, we were making these different themes and making up grooves and all that for that, for the sound stage. - I see. - And then when this new idea percolated, we ended up ditching everything. We were gonna put the metal balls from curveball in the venue and use the same projections and use the same music or right from the same music. And because of various reasons, we didn't use the balls or the projections or the music. We ditched the whole thing. - Right. - And the band thought we could do better. Trey thought we could do better. I liked some of the gyms, but I think he was right. And so then he went to Nashville and he had sung those rhythms. It worked out really well and then we're in the barn. And it was amazing 'cause in three days, the entire thing was written other than a month of sort of, you know, refining some lyrics and arrangements. But so each time he described the rhythm well played and then sort of talked through the rhythm for fish and then I would add a bass line. And the cool thing about working that way is since I'm not being given a bass line, it means that, well, my fingers can go where they want, but more importantly, I can leave as much space as I want between the notes. And that kind of, you know, just do what feels right for oomph. Whereas if I'm just handed a bass line, it doesn't always work out that way. It might be a little too busy or whatever. And then page added keyboards and then Trey started chanting. This is usually how it went. And he didn't even play guitar for the first day. He just stood there with a microphone. And all the bits were ready the first day except lyrics and maybe some B sections. On the other couple of days we were adding some B parts and then, you know, doing all of our lyric writing exercises that we've done and filling all that in. And so it was really quick. But I remember that even on the first day, I was making these little cell phone recordings of how fat it was sounding even before there was lyrics. And I think I might have one of them right here. - Ah, let's play a little bit. Let's play a little bit of that. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Oh wow, that's amazing. That's really cool stuff. - There's something, you know, maybe I'll get to ask you a few questions later, but there's something really interesting that happens when someone's just yelling out or humming before the lyrics become lyrics. And so the melody can exist on its own. And then sometimes people go to or I have or you know, you may have David Byrne takes the humming and sort of mimics it with lyrics sometimes because there was something so pure about, or natural about the humming. - Yeah, that's the way that Trey, that's the way that Trey often kind of, you know, he hears something. This is just one Trey's with me. I'm not sure if he does this with you guys. Just sort of like blah, blah, blah, garbage into the mic and then later we piece words onto that. - Right, it's really common from what I've read and you know, Paul Simon does that. And there's just something about just what comes out of your mouth naturally that David Byrne, not to go off in this tantrum, but he also says in his book, how music works is that what it's called, that he'll, if he doesn't have a melody or lyrics or he'll take away the instruments and the chords and just belt out passionate humming into a dictaphone and let the melody be free of even of the chords. Anyway, so this is what was going on except we had some chords in the barn. And then yeah, just all came together really quickly and Bryce did some mixes and we ended up harkening back to those barn recordings the whole time we were practicing. And even after, even after Halloween, we still kind of referenced the barn recordings before the tour. - It was amazing how quickly it came together and you guys were thinking Norwegian or at least you're thinking non-fish and that probably helped, you know, change it up too, which is interesting. - Yeah, maybe it gives some artistic license in certain ways or. - Right, right. - 'Cause it's gonna sound like fish anyway in the end, but to worry about that when you're starting isn't helpful I bet. - Yeah, well anyway, that thank you. You kind of clear that up. There's on one of those ask, you know, Ari Fink on Sirius Satellite on Jamon or whatever it was, got into a little bit of your guy's lyric exercises how you were in different rooms and you came together with some interesting methods as well which all of it added up to a great album. But thank you for expounding on that a bit. - Yeah, thank you. - Yeah, that's cool. So fish is, all the fans are always rewarded if they dive either into the well of the music or the meanings of the songs or the jams and the statistics, there's so much to go on and so much to parse that I've always called fish sort of like this bottomless well of information, you know, that you can grab. But there's also a whole lot going on outside of the fish envelope too. And all the fish members have projects of their own outside of fish, but you and Trey in particular lately have really stepped up your games with your solo bands. Trey is the Trey Anastasia band and yours is simply Mike Gordon, right? - Yes, right now. I've gone through thousands of ideas for band names and some people argue that using my name is the most serious and pure way to go anyway. But yeah, so it's, I mean people call it the Mike Gordon band but for me that has already been, I mean, Trey Anastasia band is such a cool name because you can say tab and that rolls off the tongue and it was a great soft drink in the '70s. - Right, exactly. - And Dave Matthews, band, enjoy your CEO band. So people will say that but I would rather have a, yeah, it's fine how it is right now. - I like that it's like you're naming a band, Mike Gordon. That's interesting. And it's not necessarily a first or last name, it's just Mike Gordon. Not to be confused with Mike Gordon, The Person, which has nothing to do with. It's kind of like, by analogy, Abby Jacobson's character on Broad City, she, which just premiered its fifth season. Anyway, is named Abby but it's a different last name and she was putting on Instagram these texts with her dad who was saying, I'm sorry, I was just confusing. I just think the Abby on the show is my daughter. - So yeah, people who think Mike Gordon is Mike Gordon are gravely mistaken. - This might be a good time for us to dive a little bit into your solo projects and see how they let us to where you are today. - Yeah. - Yeah, that would be awesome because you already mentioned rising low but that was your second feature film. You had Outside Out in 2001. - Yeah, and Outside Out was 5,000 hours of work for me, between '95, and that doesn't make it that good, but it is special because I poured a lot into it. Some people really like it and find it interesting and others don't know what the hell it is. But it was all the way between '95 and, I guess, '99 and 2000 and then rising low was the next one. And yeah, a bunch of shorts and definitely thinking in that way again in the film department. - Yeah, and writing stories and-- - Oh, good. - Yeah, yeah, I would like to do something bigger that would blow away anything I've done before and I know that I can but I'm just trying to get the, all the thoughts and the plans, it's gonna be some time, it's gonna take some time. But I'm really excited about it. - Yeah, I'm really glad to hear it. And one thing kind of sort of an ancillary thing that happened which is a little bit sad but amazing that you caught it. Outside Out features Colonel Bruce Hampton which of course he's no longer with us. So it was nice that you did a movie with him and then I was looking at rising low. Of course it was about Alan Woody who had died and that was why you did the tribute but since then two bass players in rising low, Chris Squire of Yes and John Antwistle of the Who are also no longer with us. So you've done tributes to them in a strange way as well? - Not only that but Antwistle died just a few months after we filmed him and it was filmed on real celluloid film it wasn't video and I wanted to get the footage to his family or two. I don't wonder if we ever did that because there's a bunch that didn't make it into the interview. It was really fun talking to him and then we just use little bits. And then I heard that the Who is gonna go on tour anyway even though he had just died. And I was traveling, I think I was going to LA and I went to a record store and this is back when people had like CDs and things. And I bought like 30 Who CDs and I sat in my hotel room and started learning all the Who songs and I was like, well first of all, we already covered Quadrifania for Halloween and you know, and second of all at that era I think Fish was kind of doing these gems that sounded like the Who a little bit sometimes and I had some connections so I thought, okay, that's it. I'm gonna see if I can join the Who in between Fish stuff. And I really tried but you know, they had Pina Paladino and he had already been playing with Pete Townes and all the Who songs and so fine. You know, but you know what it was, I know what it was that got me. I was driving around Vermont here and this DJ said this is what it was. You know, maybe this was a little after, this was a little after that, it happened again. Where this DJ said, okay, so the Who are gonna go on tour again and they're gonna perform Quadrifania for the first time and they said they were gonna do it in Chicago which is where we had done Quadrifania talk about the Who of Cop being another band. Anyway, and he said and we know that it's gonna be Roger Daltry and Pete Townes in it but we don't know who the bass player's gonna be at and I was like, oh, okay, that's it. I gotta get on the phone again and once again, not be in the Who. - It seemed like the universe was telling you to be in the Who briefly. - Yeah, in my mind I was in the Who. - That's too bad that didn't happen. Didn't Paige sit in briefly when didn't Greg Almond get ill during their beacon run or something? Did he? Is that my imagination? - Yeah, that sounds right. Plus Paige was the keyboard player when we had Ant Whistle play with government Mule for the movie. - Oh, wow, okay. - Yeah, Paige is a step up gentleman. He can step right in there. - All you guys don't live her. - I imagine we are able to do that. There's examples, of course, of Trey stepping into bands and Fishman, cool. - I was just targeting back to the Ant Whistle interview and I wonder if we put this clip in where I say, so what is it about that attracted you to the bass? Is it the vibration? And he's like, I don't know. My girlfriend likes to sit on the bass cabinet a lot and I think she likes that, but somehow that means like, okay, we'll go on to the next subject now. - Let's put that in. - I keep my friends off the bass cabinets when I can. - Yeah, actually you stand on a thing now, right? Then you stand on like a rumble pad or something that gives you the feeling of the-- - Yeah, well, the thing with that is with my band, we use in-ear monitors and Fish doesn't. And not only do we use in-ear monitors, usually I have my bass rig, but it's pushed pretty far back 'cause we hide all the gear behind these screens. So I'm used to having my whole body next to a lot of big speakers and power and just sort of feeling that more than hearing it, but with in-ear monitors, even though they certainly have some low end, it's really not the same. So I got the vibrating butt kickers or rumble pads and with Fish, I don't turn them on, but I kept the platform because I had a big goal last year of making the bass rigs for both bands the same. It was too much gear and too much going back and forth where I wasn't knowing my own gear well enough to big learning curves and updating both rigs. So I wanted it to be the same rig except the in-ear monitors and some things with the speakers, but all the processing and so by having all the pedals and the control on the floor on that platform, it would feel exactly the same, even though we don't turn on the rumblers with fish. So that's why that's there. And it's still a work in progress to make it work, but it's been cool 'cause the fish rig had too many gadgets in it that I didn't need and then the other one didn't have enough, so there you go, and I was compromised. 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Cushco supplies over 5,000 dispensaries in the US alone and they're in Canada too, and have an office in China. Go to cushco.com/podcasting to learn more. - Wow, that's actually, you know, while we're on that I didn't mean to go here, it's a little bit of a diversion, but your rig is incredible and your technology is incredible. If you're close enough, you can every now and then notice you stepping on a catapult that launches a drill, a power door in your hand. And is that when you feel like it or is that a particular song that you hold the drill up and it vibrates the bass? - There's a couple little moments in songs. Well, it's usually as the song's fading out. So it's, yeah, it's optional. It's whenever the universe cries out for a launching. It was broken on the last tour and we didn't even know it. My bass tech didn't know it. We just showed up and there it wasn't, but I thought, okay, I can take a little break. I like gadgets and I like trying to, I know, I thought I would be an inventor when I was eight years old and so I get to invent vicariously through myself in these tours. - Yeah. - So that's nothing that came from industry. There's no reason that a carpenter would need a drill launcher. - Well, I don't know if they're like high up and like, can you pass me the, oh, I'll just push the launcher. Poke an eye out if you're not careful. You know, and one idea, I was think of these, these little anecdotes 10 seconds into the next subject, but I requested that the drill have like some blood packets, some ketchup packets in it. - Oh my gosh. - And then it would just kind of like hit me on the head and we would pretend that I was just gushing blood and management instantly said, no, you can't do that. And then that was the end of that. But it's the thought that counts. - This is the, you know, one of the few incidents where management was, I think, correct. - They might be. - Yeah, there's a few others too. - Yeah, a couple others, yeah, yeah, yeah. So while we're talking technology, just really quick way back in time, you switched from Languedoc to Modulus and that was in 97, I think. - Yeah, yeah. - But then every now and then people notice there was a, you early before that even played a modulus on the 1994 video. - The right. - The white album, I think. Was that a test run or? - Yeah, probably. It took a while to acclimate. I mean, I know when I made the switch, it was because, especially 'cause of the low strings on that particular Languedoc, it's a beautiful sounding bass. And yeah, I think we're gonna auction that one up for charity, actually, 'cause I stopped playing it as much. But the low notes were a little muddy and, you know, honestly, the modulus or the moduli are great, but it might've had something to do with those pickups, the EMG pickups, who knows. But the low end was so, I also switched to using the pick full-time around then, the end of the 90s. - All right. - And so between the pick and, well, it's a lot of factors. It's, with being a bass player, I just mentioned this on my hotline this morning 'cause someone said, are we allowed to go deep into the question of bass tone? I was like, sure, because everything else I talk about, I'm bullshitting, and so I might as well get to talk about something I actually know about for once. And here's my thing, if you're not a bass player, like we get in high school bands and we stand around with the most horrible sounding boomy bass amps, and the notes are not very distinct. And it's years and decades of dealing with how do I, what technology or what techniques can get rid of this muddiness that makes people unable to hear the bass? And in my opinion, and most big rock concerts still have that problem. Even great, huge bands will play, and there's no chance in hell you're gonna hear even one bass note in the middle of an arena, unless they go through all kinds of extra steps to make it cleaner and, you know, to clean that up. And I think, as the bass player, that those steps begin with a sense of vision in your mind, or, you know, auditory vision of what the tone should be like. And there's so many factors from how you attack the strings and what kind of strings and what kind of pickups and bass and the gear and the space you leave between the notes. But I'll just say one other interesting thing about that. And I'm sure this is true of other instruments, but especially for bass. If I give another bass player my bass, they instantly sound like themselves, you know, or if I play their bass, and there was, you know, like for one example, I've clearly been influenced by Filesha Bunch, and I'm friends with him, and we did a gig together at his place with two basses, the bass summit, and the rehearsals were great in the indoor part of his club. And he had his, I think, a little olympic bass in his bass rig all dialed in perfectly, and it was beautiful sounding. And I had a fine tone going with whatever, you know, it was, I think I brought my more A bass note, now these, another invention of mine, which was built by someone else, but it was my idea, is these light up bass and guitar that put up patterns. And anyway, so I had one of those, and I asked after the rehearsal if I could just wear his bass and play it through his rig, and he's like, "Sure." And instantly, it was not even recognizable as the same bass or the same bass amp. It was 100% my sounding like me. - Interesting. - So it's all the player. - It's strange, and I think it's how you attack the notes and all that, but I think it starts from your concept in your mind of what the tone should be. And even that has to be refined over the years. It's tricky business. I'm sure guitar and other instruments are tricky too, but because bass is so much about resonance and the different rooms and stages have so much resonance that can get out of hand, it's just a big thing to grapple. And then if you have drums and the kick drum is so low, and you're supposed to be grooving with the kick drum, if that isn't mixed right, that alone makes it impossible to get a good bass sound. So it's fun for me. This is sort of the metaphysics of groove where I really enjoy trying to make it better. And I don't always succeed, but I like trying. - That's so great that you try. And I think I've been at those shows where you can't hear the bass, everything's muddy. And even fish shows, you're right, from arena to arena, obviously, everything changes. But lately, I gotta say, it's very, very, very good. I think whatever you guys are doing, you keep getting better. So that's amazing that you keep pursuing that, yeah. - Yeah, that's good to hear. And I hear that myself too, or even going out front when I can, which is rare, or hearing the live downloads. And it was a real work in progress where, for years, it was difficult, a bit with Paulingwoodock and then a bit with Gary. And both engineers found ways to make it work. And Gary is doing such a great job with it that, and also with my band, I know we started talking about my band, and then we veered a bit. But Sam has been doing sound. Sam Johnson, and he's been really open to new ideas with technology, and he's so great at it. And now when I do my own live releases, we don't even remix. Or, I mean, I guess neither does Trey or people who put out every night, but since I don't do that, I've had the benefit of mixing. But if I want to change anything, like someone doesn't sing a line of vocals, or is off the microphone or something, we can just sing that with this technology that allows us to keep the mix. And I just love what Sam does. But anyway, yeah, it's fun for me to try to make this whole challenge of trying to make a live experience like the studio album, or like a studio album, but with all of the crazy looseness that comes from jamming and throwing caution to the wind. Yeah, you mentioned a bass with the lights in it. That's incredible. One of the cool things about seeing you on tour is every now and then you and Scott have a guitar and bass that match and have lights. And I guess that's controlled. Is that controlled by Liggy, Jason Ligget, the lighting guy? Liggy hasn't been doing lights for me for a few years. We've had a couple different people. It's been Justin. Should look up his last name, Casey. And is that controlled by them, or is that controlled by you guys, the lights in there? It's pretty crazy because we always use those instruments exclusively, where you don't switch. And I don't use them with other bands. Originally, there were eight different systems of technology that I wanted to implement some kind of new inventions and other just applying some stuff that isn't usually done. And the light of guitars were one of those eight things. But we also had these huge set pieces that sound could pass through so we could hide the amps. But there were lights built in in these more A patterns, which is when you have the phase pattern from two screens. And so everything was matching. And even some of the interactive technology, that had some more A patterns built into it as well. So the way it works is it's hollowed out. And the lighting is-- it's on the inside. And the colors can change a couple different ways. And they're wireless instruments, too. So we can run it internally where we push some buttons and there's some settings. So one setting allows it to turn pink as I go up the neck and purple at the bottom with lower notes or turn on and off with the playing of the notes. And that one's green. But it's also wireless to the light board. So Justin, who's doing lights, he can give a lot of different colors that we don't even have built in, like a beige to the guitar and the bass. And he can match that to what else is going on. And actually, if it's set to run internally, which we don't do-- sometimes we're at a festival and we don't have the connection. So we just turn them on ourselves. But if we have something going on internally, whatever he sends from the light board will actually blend with that. And they'll both happen at the same time. I love that. And so that's why we kind of hollowed out the instruments to make room for the lights. And so the technology had to be made-- It's an interesting challenge, another technological challenge for Ben Lurie, who built them, which is that whenever you have all this lighting and these extra circuits, it can make a hum in the pickups. He wanted the pickups to sound great, not harmonizing in a way. So he got that working out. And he claimed that the way he did it-- and this gets techy-- but is by analyzing every note I'm playing and to blink the LEDs out of phase at that exact frequency so that it won't be interference. I don't know if I believe that, but that's how he says it works, how the hum doesn't come through. But anyway, he also had to make things really small. And so it's pretty hollow. And I really like the sound of those instruments a lot. Well, I can't speak for Scott. The guitar sounds great. But the bass is, I think, one reason that I like the tone so much is that it's actually got a slight acoustic quality. The screens are metal, so they're vibrating a little bit. And the hollow chamber makes it not quite like an acoustic guitar bass, but acoustic-based guitar. That's what they say, ABG. But a little bit like that, where there's a little bit of resonance that's natural. I've been just loving the sound of those basses. But the modulus is a great too. So I use the moduluses with fish. And those Ben Luery made instruments with my Ben. And which bass did you use in Cosvavox? Last question about bass. So yeah, I can answer that. So since with fish, I go modulus. Modulus, it kind of stopped being a company. And then it started again because the builder, Joe Perman, still builds them. And this guy, well, the company is planet-based, which is like a website and a store. And he sort of handles the administration now so it can be a company again. And they've just been so nice and accommodating. And I said, I need to find a white bass. And we were looking online. We were going to make the whole state, the outfits, and the stage, and the gear white. And I thought, well, I can find something online pretty easily. And I couldn't. I mean, there's a moon base that's white, but they're hard to find. And there wasn't a five string. And then the fretboard is dark. And I thought, OK, talk to modulus. And as it turns out, they said they would build one in two weeks. And usually it takes, I don't know, two years. So I said, are you sure you can do that? I said, OK, well, just make the fretboard white also. And you know, the knobs and everything. And he said, I'm going to do you one better. I've got these white neon strings that a DR mix. So I said, fine, put the strings on. Which I think was the hardest part because it was such a different tone for me. But it was worth it. Yeah, it was just like-- It looked amazing. It looked amazing. Yeah, it ended up-- once I dialed it in, it was really cool to have a different-- it was sort of like an edgier sound. That's so great. And Trey didn't have a white. Trey had a white Strat, but it had a maple, I think. I mean, yeah, whatever. Oh, close enough. The fretboard, close enough, yep, yep. All right, well, that wasn't just a tangent. That was actually like a full diversion. And coming back. Yeah. Coming back. I want to do a little bit of your discography just to catch up to where we were. So we talked a bit about outside out. And then there was a resulting-- so that was in 2001 when that came out, Mike. And then really cool. The fans afterwards, I think, responded fairly well to that movie. And it was kind of cool how then Inside In came out, which was-- Oh, right. --effectively a soundtrack, right? But yeah, but modified. I was really getting into David Lynch and how he gets so involved with the sound design and going around the world collecting sounds. And then in his movies, even the background-seeming sound effects are characters almost. Or at least they relate with characters and come back as themes. And where the sound-- like the ambience and the sound effects and the music are all blending together. So I was liking that sort of blend. And it made sense then to try to make that soundtrack. I built my own studio. I recorded all of the sound effects and the music and worked with it by myself on Pro Tools to make it sound all weird. So anyway, it made sense to try to-- it just felt good. And I like the idea of featuring the music and so to make the album. And I think it was actually a couple years after the movie that I finally had a chance to mix it. And I think the fans really like that one or they've said that they like it. I think what they like is that it's one of those albums that plays by its own rules. Is it not trying to conform in certain ways? There's a sort of a first album in a situation phenomenon that happens. It really was. It was kind of a surprise. It was an amazing sounding. And I remember at the time, my band, I thought, was peaking. But it turned out it was winding down my band Amphibian. But I didn't know it. But I knew that we were going up to higher ground. And right when it came out in 2003, I really got into two songs, "Boutless Buckler," which we can hear a little bit of. ♪ He had no words, but he had no saddles ♪ ♪ He had no time, but he went for a ride ♪ ♪ He had no soul, but he had a heart ♪ ♪ Which was all that he brought to the other side. ♪ And "Couch Lady," and I don't know if you recall that you came on stage at higher ground and played "Couch Lady" with us. Oh, that's ringing a bell now. Yeah, I'm trying to find that. I'm trying to find a clip. If I can't find a clip of Amphibian with Mike, I'm just going to play a little bit of "Couch Lady" right now from the album. ♪ ♪ She sat on favorite couch, outside of leaving rocks. ♪ ♪ She was flat and tight out, and she could think outside the box. ♪ ♪ She never confused, she had confused the mind. ♪ ♪ Since April 9, 2020, she drinks tea, and the tea is gone. ♪ ♪ She takes and taps, and says the sun. ♪ ♪ She shows how it's done, makes up some of that bubbly potion ♪ ♪ and flies to the sun. ♪ ♪ ♪ Are you tired of being tired? Are you ready to get eight hours of unbroken sleep? If you answered yes to either of those questions, today's sponsor may be able to help. Sunset Lake CBD is a hemp farm up in Vermont, making CBD products designed to help you get better sleep. As a former dairy farm that produced dairy and cream for another Vermont staple, Ben and Jerry's, Sunset Lake CBD is no stranger to quality ingredients, or standing behind their products. In fact, Sunset Lake tests every product for potency and purity, and puts the results online for all to see. They'll even mail you a copy with your order. That includes all their nighttime products. Sunset Lake carries gummies, tinctures, and soft gels designed to help you get to sleep gently and naturally. I'm someone who tends to think a lot when I lay down to go to bed, so often I'll take a sleep gummy about an hour before I need to go to sleep. The combination of CBD, CBN, and melatonin really helps me fall asleep right when I want to. Sunset Lake CBD is offering our listeners 20% off all orders. Visit sunsetlakecbs.com and use the code under mine at checkout. Sleep sound knowing that they stand behind their products. Sunset Lake CBD, farmer-owned Vermont, grown. - Hi, this is Henry Kay, host to the number one music history podcast, Rootsland. Come with me on a journey to Kingston, Jamaica, where we explore the world of reggae music, and the untold stories of some of the genre's greatest legends. From the ghettos and tenement yards where the music was born to the island's iconic recording studios, we are so excited to team up with Osiris Media, the leading storyteller in music. Because as you'll hear, sometimes the story is the best song. - There, wow, that's an amazing song. - Thank you. - I love that song. And then we gotta say, that wasn't your first solo project. Your first solo project really, I mean, that one was great, but your first solo project blew me away, and it was Leo Cocky, clone. - Right, yep, yep. I mean, I had been dabbling in different groups and, you know, gigs here and there, but yeah, that's true. The first actual solo related album with Leo, 'cause that would have been '02, and then the next one with him was '05. And now we've been dabbling again, but-- - That's great, I'm so glad to hear it. He must be, is he like the best finger picker in the world? - I think so, I mean, there, I discover other people who are mind-blowing, like this guy, Tommy Immanuel. Leo brings, and even those people, like Tommy Immanuel, will say that he is uniquely space special. And Leo himself will say, I think people know about my playing that as soon as you can hear a pattern, it twists the pattern. And finger picking is often based on very repetitive patterns. - Right. - A couple bars go by and it's not repeating. He's really a force of nature, I love it. - Wow. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - And even as a friend, he's just so, have you seen him live? - I've never seen him live, but I can tell that you guys complement each other. You're playing certainly does. - You have to see him live, not with me, because the thing is with me, he doesn't tell the stories that go as long. But his sense of humor in between songs on a good night is, it's amazing. Someone always gets maimed or killed in every story. And he's got this incredible vocabulary because all he does is read 10 books a day. And it's just, it's side splittingly funny. - Oh my God. - And it plays against the music too. He's, you know, the virtuoso player and soulful voice and all that. And then on a night that the playing is good, then the stories are good too. So anyway, I recommend checking it out. - Thank you. I will. - We'll do it again sometime soon. - I look forward to it. I'd say that's Clone 2002, came out 66 steps, came out in 2005. And on there. - Yeah, I mean, if I could piece, I can kind of piece together in a nutshell, the way the solo career. I mean, I just want to also say about Inside In and making a go-go. - Oh yeah. - Last album. - That's most recent. - There was the most recent one. There was a bit of an intention to go back to some of the experimental vibe of Inside In. To let some of it be not by the rules and just experimental. And Sean Everett, who came in as producer, is perfect for that since he's a madman of creativity. And we had already been going in that direction and trying to work with songs that are simpler. And a little more, I don't know, maybe heartfelt, who knows. Just more reflecting us a couple years ago than the Inside In era. Us meaning me and Scott, because we've been writing together a lot. But to bring back some of that sort of dreamy weirdness of Inside In. So it's kind of cool, I like how, maybe it's just being an artist, there's always balancing acts. And I find that. And in making albums or writing songs, often, you know, how do you want to be serious or silly? Or not what do you want, what does the muse want? And where do you find, you know, should it be simple or sophisticated? And where are these fine lines that occur? And I find that you can kind of, I'm talking pretty vaguely philosophically right now, but that you can stretch both ends of a spectrum at once. You can become, you know, even popular and even more weird ass at the same time. If you set your intentions that way. Right, normally they're exclusive, like poppy sometimes excludes weird. Yeah, yeah, it's tricky how, well, maybe it's because the last couple hundred years they say that we've gotten this dualistic way of thinking. And now we're starting to reintegrate the science and the religion and et cetera. Perfect. It can happen in music anyway, but just a, okay, so now I'm going to rain it on in here. Yeah, what happened, the way I could describe it is in, you know, 04, of course, fish broke up and went our separate ways. And I was really grieving that pretty badly when it first happened, having a lot of dreams at night where we're back together and not even being on stage. Often it's the whole scene where like a reoccurring dream was arriving at this venue that's in the middle of, you know, it might be alpine, but not so, not so set in terms of a known place, maybe like a stage was thrown together on a hilltop. And there's thousands of people waiting and it's so beautiful and it's a sunny day. And I pull up and I go backstage and the whole scene backstage and in this one dream there was actually a river that went through a canyon backstage. And Brad Sands and I went through a, went on a boat ride, which is, you know, probably is some, some vein that goes through my soul or something reserved for Brad Sands. But anyway, that's what I was grieving. It's just that relationship that, you know, we had grown up together and the music too. But it's the scene around, the whole dream of being in that existence with these other people. And after a few months, all the grieving went away. It was like, and I got so excited and to think that, wow, I could put together my own repertoire of songs. Not just because I want to, but because I need to and I could put together my own band. And this is just so exciting. And so I got in and I thought that there were a couple things I needed to do first. And one of them was another album with Leo. So we did that in '05 and it was just beckoning. So I thought, okay, I'm just going to go where, you know, the universe wants me to go. And that felt right. And then also some collaborations with the Grateful Dead people, Bill Kreitzman and Mickey Hart. Oh, the rhythm devil's tour. There's that and then there was a tour with my honky tonk band. And then all this was happening sort of in between while I was gearing up for the big solo career. Yeah, the green sparrow was your kind of beginning of the solo career, right. And in '07, I had done that other stuff. I'm leaving one out. Oh, I know. It was more stuff with the duo. Oh, yeah. Russo, Benaventa. Yep. Yep. I love those guys. And so in '07, I had a rule. No gigs allowed. Because even one little one-off gig with someone somewhere would take a month of planning and thinking about. And it's easier to do a whole tour when, you know, the gears are spinning and you have these songs and you get used to it. But to get all ready and just do one gig, so it was no gigs allowed. And then I'm sitting in the writing room with writer's block for three months staring at the blank wall. You know, there were times like that. But I got through them. That's when Trey recommended the artist way, which was so nice of him because it was actually helpful. That's a book. It's like the most, the best-selling book on creativity, a workshop and a book ever written. Yeah. Millions and billions. And you hear about like on NPR, there's like famous directors and novelists that have been doing the exercises from that book for years and years. And it's just, well, here's the idea with the book real quick. And I haven't done it in years, but it was helpful back then. The idea is that children have this sense of wonder and our parents and our teachers without meaning to kind of squelch that sense of wonder. They basically are telling us that we suck without meaning to. And even someone who's had like a best-selling whatever movie is ready to direct the next one and starts and thinks, well, I suck at this. Or, you know, starting to write a song. Even, you know, Paul Simon or whoever sitting down to write a song, the inclination that the brain will do is to say, well, this is going to suck. And so that book, all it's trying to do is to let that to silence the inner critic and be a kid again. But, you know, I mean, when I think about you, and we'll talk about this more in a bit, but you seem like you've just held on to that anyway, the inner kid, and that you wouldn't need that. But some people, I think, really, really benefit from it. I appreciate it. I'll tell you really quickly, my answer is just to do a lot. It pushes through it. And also to take time off without worrying about, you know, making anyone mad or making the muse angry. Like, the muse isn't going to go away. It's always there. She's always there, whoever it is. Exactly. Yeah. And if you just show up, that means a lot. Yeah, exactly. That's what that woman. There's a good podcast, Elizabeth Gilbert, about just showing up, and then the muse will do the rest. Yeah. Not every day. But, I mean, so, and then in October of '07, I was working with Jared, and every weekday, our rule was one new song, every day. Wow. Of that, of October. And each song has to begin from something pre-existing, especially this collection of bass and drum jams. I had a lot of drummers who I love. And no listening back until the end of the week, we were allowed to listen to the five songs from those weekdays once each. And we came up with 21 songs in that October. So my goal was, I'm going to either come up with three albums or 50 songs worth, and put my own band together, which in '08, I did the next year. And then I made a few albums from those songs. And I just thought, I just want to really take a, I want to just step up to the plate here and try to do it. So then, '08 comes, and Trey calls, and he says, "Let's get fish back together." And my first thought is, "Well, fish is great." And I did think we had some more jamming left in us, but I'm having a lot of fun getting to make all these decisions myself and stuff. And he's like, "Okay, I get that, but we can have it all. There's going to be time to do our own things, have our careers, have our families, and do fish." And he was so right. There's been time to do everything. And I had had bands, I know three, I had the band, around Inside In, AP's band with tap dancer and trombone and pedal steel. And other bands, Scott and I had 12 different groups together since '92. One of them was called the drop caps, we just have one gig. But the idea was to have one that didn't go away, that just got deeper and deeper because we stuck to it. That was the goal, that in the same way, well, not in the same way, but in the way that fish has this incredible benefit of years and years of building chemistry that I would just keep going with something. And that would be more important than whatever stick I come up with for a given year or if someone comes up with. And now, it's actually been just over 10 years, 10 and a half years. And I'm really glad that that was the choice because even when it's 10 years instead of 35, there's something incredible that happens by going through these trials and tribulations together. And especially musical ones where, oh, a few years go by and I listen back to a tape and I'm like, this is really weird. We just sound too much like all of our influences or this is really weird. We're playing too many notes or something's really weird. We've got to take a turn here and I don't know exactly what it is. So to go through that and work at it and I don't know, I guess I'm just a long-term relationship guy. There's a payoff that comes with the commitment over time. I see it and I also see how you're, you know, I forget exactly like the news at the time, but there were a lot of, and it's interesting to hear that you kind of had your internal way of grieving and how it vanished. I know a lot of fans that just kind of grieved the entire time fish was away and, you know, it was the best announcement ever, that 2009 you were coming back. But I can see how you were sort of divided a little bit at first and the way that that may have come out in the news probably was not exactly the way it happened and it's great hearing your side of it, that's really intense. And it's kind of cool how you also or Trey and you had the foresight to see that, you know, let's do both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Yeah, there's, I mean, it's incredible for me to see how many things Trey does and when he can, you know, write some symphony and go off with orchestras and have his own band and then score, you know, the Broadway play and someday he's going to sleep, but it's not for a while. Or if you look at occasionally there are people that just sort of do everything. Steve Martin has always been one where he goes from stand up, actually magic shows and then stand up and doing all these movies and writing plays and putting up books and bluegrass band and he didn't have a kid until recently the last few years. Wow. So maybe that helped, but, and other people just have to do one thing because with Leo Kocki, he is an example of a person that, you know, he started playing pedal steel a little bit and he liked it too much and he's like, I cannot do this because when he wakes up at seven, at seven in the morning he's playing guitar until eight p.m. every day and it never sounds like someone noodling. It always sounds world class. Oh my God. And he reads books, but he was offered a publishing deal to write one which I'm sure would be one of the most amazing books, but he was like, no, that would just take away from guitar playing. Everything would take away from guitar playing. So it's, you know, for the modern day Renaissance man, it's tricky to figure, you know, they talk about the 10,000 hour rule. Yes, you become an expert in 10,000 hours, right? Yeah, no, I'm wondering if you spread yourself too thin, like, if you say, you know, being in theater, let's say, can I put 10,000 hours into that? Well, what if it's 500 hours of acting and 500 hours of lighting and 500 hours of choreographing, you know, does it count? Or is that too broad? And that's been, you know, I'm a Gemini, so I'm supposed to have a lot of interests, or at least two opposing interests always. And that, so time management becomes really, really tricky for someone who wants to do a lot of things and doesn't have a boss telling him when to do them. Yep, yep. You have to decide where to focus and how to focus and if it's enough focus, you're right. But the great thing about two bands is that each one inspires the other in different ways. And, you know, I guess probably the simplest way for me to put it in a nutshell is by having my own band. And it's one where I encourage the other band members to bring material and to bring ideas and make decisions with me. I don't like to be an autocratic band leader, but still I get to do all that. I think I come back to fish with more confidence having done that. And I think what I bring from fish obviously is this experience of magic when people are allowed to kind of let go of trying to prove anything by just letting the relationship and the bond and the rhythm and the notes and all that that are created in that context or let it play itself and let the music play itself. That that is always inspiring and I'm always emailing the guys in my band about the ways that that can work when you surrender to it. And so it definitely goes back and forth and one feeds the other, so Trey was so right when he said that. We can do both. And I've changed band members and I've made more albums and I started writing a lot with Scott and all this sort of has been evolving and adding all those new kinds of technology and subtracting new kinds of technology. It's, you know, it's a work in progress, but I really enjoy, I'm really glad I get to get to do that with the quintet. Hello there. Sorry for the abrupt ending. In fact, the conversation flowed so smoothly. It was hard to find anyplace to call the end of part one. So I just did it. I chopped. Part two comes out in exactly one week on Monday, February 18. Tune in to hear the conclusion of this interview with Mike. You'll hear a lot more Mike music and discussion and also a moment where Mike interviews me briefly about songwriting. Thanks. Until next week. This podcast is in the loop. The Legion of Osiris podcasts. Osiris is creating a community that connects people like you with live experiences and podcasts about artists and topics you love. Get in the loop at OsirisPod.com. I don't think it overstates things to say that the Beatles were the greatest gift to entertainment and culture of our time. A secular religion, if you will, with their universal appeal and demonstrable impact on people's lives. I'm Robert Rodriguez, host of something about the Beatles. With every episode, I speak with historians, musicians, artists and Beatles witnesses. All in the service of fresh insights, it's the most joyous cultural entity the world has ever known. I hope you'll join me and listen to something about the Beatles, now and evergreen, and wherever you get your podcasts. And I do not want to hear you by the Beatles. What's up, everybody? I am Finn McCanty, host of the punk rock NBA podcast, part of the Sound Talent Media podcast network. My podcast is all about doing what you love for a living. And every week, I sit down and talk to people who have done exactly that. For example, musicians like Tommy from between The Buried Me, Matt from Periphery, Lilotis and Shinigami, among many others. Photographers, artists, designers, YouTubers, like Glenn Fricker and Sarah Deitchy, and I unpack exactly how they got to where they are today with the goal of helping you do the same. So, if that sounds cool, you can listen and subscribe at soundtalentmedia.com, and I'll see you there.
