Here's another show you can enjoy in the true story FM family of entertainment podcasts. Hey Pete, ever wonder what Steven Spielberg's favorite film is? You know, Andy, I've heard he loves classics like Lawrence of Arabia, maybe in St. Louis. Imagine chatting with him about why those films resonate with him so much. That's exactly what we do on our podcast. Movies we like. We've had incredible guests like actress Dee Wallace, cinematographer Eric Mezerschmitt, director Steve Miner, and former Disney animators Tom and Tony Bankroft. They share their favorite films and the impact they've had on their careers, offering fascinating insights into the craftsmanship and storytelling techniques that make these movies so special. If you're curious about the magic behind the scenes, subscribe to Movies We Like from True Story FM on your favorite podcast app. New episodes are released on the fourth Monday of each month with early access for our members. Join us on Movies We Like, as we explore the movies we all like, with the people who make them. And Steven, our people will call your people. Let's make this happen, Bubby. Subscribe today. What's up, most excellent friends? It's Chrissy and Nathan from the most excellent 80s Movies podcast. It's a podcast where a filmmaker and a comedian and their most excellent guests adventure their way through the 80s Movies we think we love or might have missed with our grown up eyes to see how they hold up. Join us for a delightful discussion. Rolicking recaps. Ratings and deep cut recommendations. Plus, members get some extra fun chit chat with the hosts after the show. Download the most excellent 80s Movies podcast today at truestory.fm. Or find it wherever the finest podcast are stored. And do remember to keep the most excellent 80s Movies podcast motto in mind. Be excellent to each other and... Party on dudes. Hello and welcome to this last rebroadcast episode of Superhero Ethics. Next week, we're going to be back talking about some new content. And because one of the things I know we're going to be talking about is season two of The Rings of Power, I wanted to bring you another chance to hear our conversation about season one of Rings of Power. This is where myself and Paul Hoppy dive into the show set in JRR Tolkien's World but happening many, many centuries, I think even millennia, before the events of Lord of the Rings. Showing you the start of all those events that led to those movies by Peter Jackson we love so much. There was a lot to say about the first season, things we liked, things we didn't, what it set up. And I'm excited for myself to go back and hear it and hope for you R2 as we get ready or some of you may already be to watch what's happening in season two. So this is the content of season one. Please check it out and we'll have new content for you coming up next week. Thank you so much. We have spoken. Three podcasts for the Star Wars fans under the sky. Seven for the dwarf lords who talk about D&D. Nine podcasts were given to humans so they could talk about all the things that drive them crazy and bother them in this everyday world, but they were all of them deceived. For there was one podcast made by one host and one very much not a host where they would talk about all of the things we've discussed, but today we would talk particularly about the one episode to bring them all together. One episode to rule them, one episode to bind them all together and debate over non-human characters and how they are treated on screen. And in the darkness, do something else to them because I just came up with idea a second to go. As you may have guessed, we will be discussing the rings of power. We will not be using pretentious, ridiculous, well, as pretentious as Paul and I normally are, we will be. But I will now stop trying to imitate Lord of the Rings. I'll just say we're gonna have a lot of fun talking about rings of power and probably the ads are now gonna be at something about destroying the environment because that would be appropriate, so don't buy the stuff if it is, but like if it's cool stuff buy it because then people will get paid for the podcast and that's kind of fun. All right, goodbye ads. But they were all of them deceived. I said that already. I need to know. Were you deceived? We're not done yet. One more ad. I'm Matthew, your Galadriel impersonator and podcast host. I'm joined as almost always by Mr. Paul Hoppe. Paul, how are we doing today? Yeah, doing pretty good. Ready to talk about elves. Yeah, I'm excited for this. This was a show that we're talking obviously about rings of power, the show of the Lord of the Rings universe set significantly before Lord of the Rings that was on Amazon. I want to say from the beginning, and Paul, this may not be true for you, but I know the story and I greatly enjoyed watching the story. I have not read much of the text material that this was drawn from, nor have I read much of the text material that to the consternation of many. This was not drawn from. So I think it's fair to say this podcast is going to be about what we saw on screen and analyzing that story without getting too much into the many, many, many debates about how this relates to what is in written form. Is that accurate for your perspective as well? I think so, yeah. I mean, I do believe I read the appendices from which this was inspired, as opposed to the Silmarillion from which this was not legally allowed to draw. It's obviously, it's like a super weird, complex situation that I didn't even know about going in and then someone mentioned, I'm like, what? That doesn't make any sense, but I'm happy to just discuss the show. We could broadly talk a little bit about adaptations. And I think the idea is that this is supposed to gel with the Peter Jackson movies, but not actually have shared perfect continuity with them. It sounds a bit right. It sounds a bit right. And it's more inspired by the writings of Tolkien than it is a direct adaptation is my understanding. And that's fine. And we can just talk about the show on its own. Exactly. If people have feelings about all of those things, like, I think that's totally legit, I don't have super strong feelings. I've enjoyed some Tolkien in my life. But I wouldn't say, I have super strong feelings. So I respect that when people do, they do, especially if they express them in not super hostile, toxic ways, but sort of like, hey, this isn't what I wanted. Like, yeah, cool. And we actually did an episode a couple of weeks, a couple of months. And we actually did an episode a couple of months ago, specifically about adaptations and sort of fans and entitlement and like, how we feel as fans when things that we love are not adapted the way we might like. And I would definitely encourage checking that out. But yeah, today let's mostly focus on this story itself. And sort of where I'm starting from was that I watched the first couple of episodes of this with my partner. And granted, it was coming out at a time that a lot of other things were coming out. I think Wheel of Time was still kind of finishing up, which I was sort of trying to follow, but having trouble with House of the Dragon was coming out and/or started coming out. There was just a lot of content happening at the time that this show was coming out, as well as just as I've said before, in general, I work much better binging some of these shows. So I kind of fell off after a couple of episodes. And then, Paul, I remember you kind of like poking me a few times, asking me if I'd watched it and indicating that you wanted to talk about it. And finally, I did. I binged it over a weekend with my partner, really enjoyed it, thought, especially after the first couple of episodes, it really kind of got rolling and really got drawn into it and figured there was an awful lot to talk about. But I want to kind of start by giving you the ball and just sort of saying what was kind of your thoughts on the show and what made you excited to be talking about it on this podcast? Yeah, so it's funny because I kind of had the opposite experience with the show as you did. Like, I wasn't expecting to see it. I briefly had access to prime video. So I was like, all right, this is on. Okay, let's see this. I watched the first two episodes. I really enjoyed the first couple episodes. And then, you know, also the next couple. And then I think I didn't enjoy it as much as it went on. It felt like there was a little bit more sort of contrivance and kind of things about the story. But there's certain things that I really loved about the series. And the main thing, especially in the beginning, was the idea that like the main characters aren't humans. And they're they're supposed to be very specifically different from humans, right? And primarily elves. But then also, you know, there's there's important dwarves. And, you know, the Harfits who are like proto hobbits, basically, right? And personally, whenever I've read fantasy or pretty much watched it on screen, or like played D&D, elves have always been the characters that I related to, you know, and I mean, a small part of that is like, the idea of immortality is greatly appealing to me. Just because I feel like there's not enough time. Like there is there are not enough hours for all the things I want to do, you know? And if I had centuries or millennia, like that would be such a problem. I wouldn't be like, Oh, what am I, you know, how am I going to squeeze things in? And it would be like, yeah, just, you know, we'll catch up again in 20 years. I got to do this thing, you know, just let me master a few skills and then we'll start talking again. And so one of the lines that like super resonated with me was like when when Elrond goes and meets Duren for the first time in two decades. And Duren's like, it's been 20 years. And Elrond's like, has it only been 20? Totally. And I just felt like that felt so relatable to me, which is, you know, which is funny, because I mean, I am technically a human. I wouldn't say I like super closely identify with that as like an important part of my identity or anything. But like, you know, it is like genetically a fact, right? But like, I liked how, especially early on, I felt like Elrond and like Galadriel, like were not just like normal human characters with pointy ears. I felt like they went out of their way to actually make them feel more Elphish, you know, and you know, and in the in the original Lord of the Rings trilogy, like in Fellowship of the Ring, especially like Legolas was just always a character that just kind of not just like appealed to me, but just like felt like that's the character that I relate to in a lot of ways, you know, and it's this kind of like, I feel like elves are like empathetic and thoughtful and intellectual, but also like kind of detached, you know, and I like the idea of having, you know, a very different perspective of, you know, of character. And it's like when you're dealing with not fantasy with things directly related to our world, I think it's important to show all different types of people, right? Not just in terms of like sort of like checkboxes of identity, although I think that's important as well. But just like different perspectives, right? I think having characters coming from different perspectives is just really important. And so I thought this show in the beginning largely did a very good job with this with the exception of like that scene of like the other elves like teasing her when she was a little kid, but that felt a little weird to me. But like overall early on, I felt like they were really establishing like these are elves. The elven experience is broadly different from the human experience. And I enjoy that. I enjoyed getting to see that centered in a story, right? As opposed to, you know, you've got the elf and that's kind of not a side character, but like a secondary character in a lot of stories. And I totally get where you're coming from there. I really enjoy that, although humorously for kind of different reasons, you know, well, first of all, I should say, I understand that you grumpily, reluctantly identify as human. I do want to point out that the official kind of like, you know, scientific classification of human describes them as a bipedal species. I am not bipedal. I only have one foot. So I think technically I am actually further from the definition of human than you are. But that that that that's a quibble for another time as numerous scientists quickly unfollow us. But yeah, I mean, you might you might say that that's a little bit of an ableist, you know, description or a kind of narrow one, right? I just look your your bipeds. I'm a monopod. Also known as a moped. So I'm superior. Fair. But the real funny part is that throughout our friendship, we often counted on this, you're an elf and I'm very much a dwarf. And I really did enjoy getting to watch. Because I think one of the things that so often happens is as you are saying, not only are like elves the sort of weird character where the humans are the point of view, but the elves are defined specifically in how they are different from humans. And what's basically happening there is humanity is set up as the normal by which every other race is measured. Yeah. And so having so much of the story, first of all, be about a bunch of a bunch of hardfoots who have no contact with any of these other races. And then also primarily about human about elves and dwarves and how they relate to each other. And then when the elves and the humans who relate to each other, it's mostly not about them being different kinds of races, but a lot of it's about like their shared history and a lot of tension because of that history. I really, really loved that. And I really, it felt very different. I think many of those same ways you're saying. And I think especially the thing I really loved is that in a lot of fantasy, and especially a lot of science fiction, and this is true, even one of my favorite shows Babylon 5, but like in Babylon 5, in Star Trek, and a lot of these shows, there's kind of a degree of human exceptionalism where it's always like humans are the new kid on the block. All these older races are out there, but also humans are just so like sometimes it's just our ability to build communities or it's that we're just so plucky and that we'll never get knocked down, we'll always get back up. And then all the way, or just like for some whatever, the gods or fate or the computers, humans are required for the destiny of the universe or the galaxy. Right. The ability to think illogically. Right. Yeah, exactly. Like the Vulcans often talk about that, that like you just need a human who will do the dumb out of the box thing. And like I get that, but it was really nice to be in a world where humanity is mostly defined by people because they were on the wrong side the last time that good and evil lined up against each other in this universe. And clearly it's not just that humans are evil. There's a lot that was going on, and there's a lot of tension in terms of like maybe humanity did that because they were getting kicked around by all the other races because they were younger and less powerful. Or maybe even if like what the humans did back then was terrible, there's clearly some like discrimination against them. And like, I think the humans have some legitimacy to their attention with the elves and the dwarves, particularly on Numenor, but it just all felt so much more complex than the way that these stories normally told in a way that I really appreciated. And in a way where like I felt like the character, I felt like the fact that a character was human didn't mean that that was the character I was supposed to relate to most. Yeah, I'm 100% in agreement on that regard. You know, there were humans who I think the audience was meant to relate to and were to some extent point of view characters, right? But it wasn't like, oh, they're humans. So they're the ones that matter the most. I mean, I guess in Lord of the Rings, it's like it's the hobbits who are supposed to be actually kind of the exceptional, right, despite being unexceptional. But I think they're kind of in that world, they're the English very much. Right, exactly, exactly from the Shire. So yeah, I really do enjoy the the dynamics between the different groups where, you know, the new Minorians, I feel like, or little, it feels to me like they became very isolationist in a way that doesn't feel like it was necessarily warranted. Like that was maybe just them kind of moving into something that I think of as like a fairly negative thing. Like in their more recent history, especially, it seems was the implication. But the humans of the Southlands, like they were on like the wrong side, right? They were on, what's his face? Yeah, the person who was defeated before Sauron came along, who like, Sauron was like working for him or something. They established him as the big bad early on, but it's more, thank you. Yeah, more golf, which I guess probably has the same root as like more door. Yeah, which right now I feel like I am unable to pronounce, but like sometimes I can. I will say I really enjoyed that it felt like they were very deliberate with the pronunciation of like, especially the Rs, right, or like very, or very different from typical English Rs. But yeah, it felt to me like, you know, the humans of the Southland like, like, yeah, they were, they were on Morgoth's side, but like also the elves, it kind of feels like the elves were sort of colonizers at the same time. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I think it's unclear when the humans like sprung up, but. So let me talk about new one, our first, because that's, I think, a really interesting place of ethical questioning, because I think I agree with you that from, let me actually work back over again, for me, I think I totally understand what you're coming from about not loving that the new Minorians are so isolationist. I think for me, I was frustrated because I felt like, yeah, with a little information we knew, it wouldn't make sense for the new Minorians to be quite so isolationist. I think the implication was supposed to be that there was a whole bunch of backstory that we weren't being told. And here, the frustration is actually, I think part of kind of maybe it's the price to pay, but I think it's worthwhile of a good stuff we're talking about. It's because the new Minorians aren't the point of view characters. Glorious. And, and, and the people should come and, and you know, the boat captain is he'll do his father. Like, they're somewhat, but even he is somewhat kind of set aside. And so like, I kind of kept feeling like I wished we had time to learn more about the history between the elves in Numenor and sort of what had happened because it, it sounded like, you know, probably both sides had been not great, but then once the isolation began over a thousand hundreds of years of history, both sides are telling the story their way and both sides are getting locked into our way as right. And, you know, just the kind of the way that cycle can come about. Yeah. And, and I think I think I would have liked that if I had one frustration about the show, it's that I felt some of those storylines, particularly that one was rushed. Because you're right, it did feel like we, we, we didn't get enough of the Numenorian story for it to make sense why they were so anti elf. But it also felt like, like, there was a scene between the elf, when the, the queen of Numenor and Gladriel are kind of confronting each other. And on both of them, I'm like, wait, wait, if you just explain yourself, like two or three more sentences, all of this hostility can go away. Like, okay, we just have to be hostile and try to break each other's plans immediately. Like, but it, it was frustrating to me, but it felt frustrating in a, it didn't feel like bad writing to me. It felt like there's clearly an established thing as to why these characters are acting in this way. Right, it didn't feel like, like, well, why don't they just talk to each other about this? Like, so the story can happen. It's like it wasn't, it wasn't that it was like, it was no, this is how these people, these people are both very stubborn, right? Muriel and Gladriel, like, they're both like very not, not like, I'm going to listen a bunch and then think and then speak, you know? It's like this is, they're both very dug into their point of view. Although, I will say like, Muriel, like, did change her mind, right? I mean, she, she did get convinced to, you know, go off to war with, you know, which it's funny, like, the whole thing of like, you know, Gladriel is like, hey, let's go to war. Let's, let's do a war, you know? And it's like, kind of as the viewer, it's like, yeah, yeah, we know that she's right, like, go get Sauron, but like also like, yeah, I'm not really like, oh yeah, let's go, let's get in our boats and go attack some other land. But at the same time, it's like, you know, there was another group that was attacking that land already, you know, so, but this is all like through omens and stuff that they, so, so, you know, it's, in terms of like the individual characters and like their motivations, to me, that felt very real. It felt very reasonable. I enjoyed, I would say I enjoyed all the writing, like, up to, up to that point, you know, and then the actual episode where then they did go off, then I felt like things kind of, I had some issues after that, but not, not so much issues to like, talk about, but just kind of like, it wasn't totally my favorite after there, but, but I did really enjoy, you know, like the politics of it and, you know, some of the backstory. And it's hard, though, because it's like, ah, like, how do you tell a compelling story on screen in something that's ostensibly somewhat of an action series and give centuries, if not millennia of history? Yeah. You know, how do you actually convey all of that in a, in a series? And it's like, I'm not sure you need to bring all of that at once. Now, especially when you can't get Caitlyn Chet back to narrate it for you. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some kind, some kind of narration tool might have been effective, but I was, I was happy with not having real, you know, much narration in this or any. I didn't feel like it necessarily needed it, but that is one way to just get a bunch of, you know, exposition in there. Yeah, I definitely get that. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of real challenges that this show had. And in some way, it's like, I think if there's anything that I'm frustrated by, it's often I'd want to be like, okay, well, let me now just go look up the source material so that I can like fill in all those gaps that the TV show is just never going to get to show me. But of course, here, you know, because no, no one has any idea what the hell the source material is or what is conflicting source material or just all of that stuff. It becomes a lot harder, you know, and I think that's. Yeah, for sure. In some ways, I think that's a big reason why. Well, again, I don't love the people who have gotten very vehement in their attacks about it. I can very much understand the frustration because I think it's, it's one thing to say, I know the source material, but you're telling me a totally different source material. So I have to just put aside mine and fully accept yours because yours is deep enough to fully accept. But when it's ignore that source material, except some parts of the source material still fit, and some of it will make sense, but we're not going to fill in all the gaps, but don't fill in the gaps with what you know from the other source material. But maybe from some of the like, I can see why that would drive a lot of people out of the crazy and be very frustrating. Yeah, yeah, I could see that being very maddening. I was deliberately not looking up a bunch of stuff as the show went on because I didn't want spoilers, although there'd be no way of knowing whether those were actually going to be spoilers or not. But I didn't totally know that I was kind of like, you know, kind of like, you know, like trying to look at it like out of the side of my the corner of my eye, like, okay, can I, can I look this thing up without? No, no, okay, let's stop, you know. And I, it's interesting because I feel like one thing that this show accomplished that I feel the Peter Jackson movies also accomplished to a really strong degree is this feeling of history, you know, like the feeling that this world is ancient, that there's, there's all this backstory that there's things that have gone before, you know, and so if it was, if it perfectly dovetailed in with all the other stories, I think that would be less of a visual illusion and more of a like, yeah, you can actually look those things up and make connections. The fact that it is disconnected from that in a in a very real way where like, they can't literally draw on everything. I think is a, you know, it's a it's an impediment to to giving that level of depth in terms of the actual history. But I do think to some extent, they made up for that by giving this this visual depth, right? Like, I mean, Numenor, I think, was amazing looking and apparently they they like built a whole city, basically, where you could just like go around the whole place and, you know, you know, is that also in New Zealand? I don't know. I don't know. I can, I can probably research that and say that by the time we're done. Yeah. Yeah, it really was and I, so, so let's kind of dive more into the Numenorian storyline, because I think that's kind of the easiest. Well, actually, I would put this way. Do you want to kind of, I think maybe the easiest way to like approach this is through the plot lines of some of the characters and so maybe like we can get into the new reorns by like focusing on Galadriel and then we can switch to Elnor, not Elnor. That's Star Trek. Elron. Thank you. Does that work for you? Yeah. Absolutely. So I think with Numenor, we get a lot into Galadriel's story, but I actually want to go back a bit because like you mentioned how it kind of the end, you're like, I don't really love that it being all about like, let's go fight, fight, fight. I think that was one of the most interesting parts of Galadriel's character was that all along, like even in that first episode, normally if you see a character being so dedicated to fighting evil at all costs, you're like, okay, cool. This is our hero. They're hitting all the hero tropes, they're willing to sacrifice everything. Instead, we start with Galadriel as like, there's some of that to be sure, but there is, I think, I like, maybe so differently, I definitely thought like that the people who thought Galadriel was pushing too far were kind of right, like in terms of like the degree she was pushing people, the risks she was taking, the risks she was taking with other people, like she knew something that the others didn't and I don't think she's totally wrong, but I think there was some truth to the idea that she was pushing too far. What was kind of your take on that? Yeah, I think I would probably personally steer clear of the words right and wrong and more say that I think everybody had reasonable perspectives. Yeah, that's right, that's right. It certainly seemed that most of the elves and everyone else were like, yeah, you know, Morgoth is gone, Sauron is gone, like chill, you know, sail into the, is it the west or the east, the east? I don't know, wherever they sail off to, you know, go off to the undying lands and just chill out, like we won, it's over, right, it's done, and they were wrong, but they were, it was reasonable for them to believe that, right, there was, there was a lack of evidence, right, right, there was, there was no evidence, but she was like, she felt it in her heart, like she, she had some really, really weak evidence, right, that maybe Sauron was still, you know, around and kicking and doing stuff, but, you know, and maybe it could have been like, yeah, okay, maybe look into that more, I don't know, but I do think being like, hey, let's, let's stop doing this whole war thing, it looks like it's done, right, we don't have an enemy that we see anywhere, and, and yeah, I think that was a reasonable perspective for them. Yeah, it's unclear whether she had some kind of like magical sense, you know, that, that like, something wasn't right, and that, you know, Sauron wasn't really gone, or whether she just happened to be right, right, she like, basically there was a thing that was like a one in a thousand chance, and she was just certain it was true, and it just happened to be true, but like, you know, there, there just wasn't really evidence to that, you know, conclusion, and she just happened to like guess right, basically, so I think she's reasonable in terms of her personally wanting to continue, you know, the, the search, the struggle, but at the same time, I think, you know, it was reasonable for the elf king to be like, yeah, we're, we're gonna stop doing this, yeah, like, you know, and for the other soldiers to be like, hey, look, like this isn't, there's nothing out here, right, like, we're not going to just go off and get killed, like, looking for someone who we don't even think exists anymore. Yeah, I think what you said about right and wrong is actually even a better way to say what I was going for, because I think that's exactly it, and what I kind of meant was that I think often the story is presented in very clear right or wrong, you know, that like, glad you know, like, that everyone who's getting a gradual way is wrong because she should be doing all of it, and I think one of the things I think that was most interesting about the show in general is, you know, you and I talk about this a lot about how we like nuance, we like complexity, we don't like just necessarily like very binary good and bad villains, and I feel like this somewhat the way Lord of the Rings did, but even more so, and I mean, Peter Jackson versions, again, I don't know the books too well, but even more so I think than those movies did, this is really kind of trying to have it both ways in a way that I think works, because I think what they're doing is being like, yes, there is fundamental evil in this world, and it needs to be stopped. But that doesn't mean that all the good guys are actually good guys, and that like, that a lot of it, like, they're all still people, they're all still have their own agendas, and their own fears, and their own hopes and dreams, and they're all going to be doing maybe like, each of them is going to be doing what is from their perspective the best way to fight the fundamentally evil that exists in this universe, but that's going to look different for each of them, and some of them aren't, are going to think that it's done and want to go in different directions, and I think that's what maybe overall one of things I really loved about the show is how it kind of had that like, yes, there's fundamentally evil out there, but still we can have like, glad real is fighting the good fight to do, but other people make total sense that they are having some doubts and all the rest. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, there is this like, big mythical evil in this world, right, sort of like, you know, Palpatine and Star Wars, but also there are people who like, think they're doing good things, and it's like, maybe they're not, or maybe they can be good, but it's, you know, it's things are complicated, so I do think there was a nice degree of nuance, right, and like, you also get to have your just like, you know, Sauron is evil because his goal is to dominate all living things, like, not cool dude, not cool, like, no, no, you can't do that, that's not okay, so like, it was totally reasonable to be like, yeah, I'm gonna do all sorts of things to stop him, but at the same time, it's like, I don't know, I think there's a way of looking at the story also, that's like, well, like, where did Sauron come from, and why did he come to Galadriel, like, it was he physically not manifested, and then he showed up because she had this like, darkness and anger and hatred in her heart, I don't know, maybe, that's an interpretation, you know, the whole thing it, one thing I'm not clear on, is he like, a priest of Morgoth that is not, is he like, someone who was like, a devotee, or a priest of Morgoth, and is now like, taking over the family business, because Morgoth is gone, is he like, actually Morgoth reborn, do you have a clear idea of that, or are we not supposed to know that, or did I just miss it? I think it was in there, and I would say that, you know, not super confidently, my understanding was that he was a servant of Morgoth, and, and like, predates elves, and, you know, all the other beings that walk the earth basically, or the middle earth, and that he was, you know, a servant of, like a, like, you know, not willingly really, it was like, he was, either he was created to serve Morgoth, or, or he was just one of the really ancient beings, who then Morgoth was like, yeah, you're working for me, you don't have any choice about it, and then, because I think he said, you know, basically like, thank you for destroying Morgoth, you know, like, and he has this sort of like, I'm going to liberate the world from suffering by controlling everyone, by removing free will kind of thing, it seems, right? And so like, I think he views himself as like, the good guy, you know, like, he's not like, mo-ha-ha-ha-ha, he's like, no, this is, this is a good thing to do, I mean, I, I think it's not, you know, but, but yeah, I think, I think he was, he's like ancient, and was a, a servant of Morgoth, and once Morgoth was defeated, then he like took over the, kind of, you know, the family business, or whatever, like, you know, he was the, he promoted to, to head dude, basically, but maybe not in this body the whole time, right? This is just like a current physical manifestation. And I certainly found that I really appreciated the way his character was developed, and his connections with Gladriel, because age, yeah, again, the whole like, you know, why is he drawn to her, with like, this is not Star Wars, but a lot of that, like, you know, the dark, what is the darkness in her manifesting? I was like, oh, there's some like, like, side, dark side of the force ideas happening here. Yeah, yeah. Again, not the right, if anything, George Lucas cribbed from this. This comes, this is a written way before George Lucas. Right, of course. But I loved that, but also, because I always felt in Lord of the Rings that the, the power that Sauron had was much more told than shown, you know, and like, I, I was left thinking, like, why are all these other groups, like marching to help Sauron? Why, why? And we're told that he's this being of like, incredible deceitfulness and temptation and all this. And I think this really showed that to me in a way I hadn't had, like the way he, because yeah, I, I have literally no idea whether he does honestly believe that he can make things better for everybody by taking over, or he's just wanting the power, and that's a great line to get there. And I think it's in part because it's really good acting and really good writing. But it certainly feels to me like, I get why Galadriel came so close to being seduced into it. And I get why a lot of human groups would wind up either meet like, you know, this is pure conjecture. But like when you talk about the humans who signed up for the big war last time, however many thousands of years ago, if, if this is the guy doing the recruiting for, for Morgoth, I can understand why, you know? Right, right. Yeah, I, I think, so first of all, I think in the, you know, in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, like there's this idea of Sauron as, as being this kind of almost more like an essence, like an evil compelling essence than, you know, like a, a physically embodied person who's, you know, like talking to people to convince them of this or that, you know? So it feels like there's, there's a little bit more of kind of like a magic to it, or like a mystery to it. And I think the idea is that, you know, he is supposed to be this kind of like disembodied evil, even though I know he takes physical form, I believe at the end of, of Return of the King and also, you know, in physical form, he's defeated by a Silver, right? But I guess spoilers for this series. Yeah. You know, it's, it's funny, like how many prequels were coming out all at the same time? But like, I totally lost my thought. Oh, yeah, the kind of like the line of like, I'm gonna, you know, like basically rule with me, you know, as we like dominate the world, but it's for a good reason. It actually really reminds me of the end of the much, the much maligned end of Game of Thrones. Oh, yeah. You know, and, yeah, I mean, here, I think we've talked about the four that, that there's a very understandable path of, I want everything to go better. And if all these stupid people would just let me be in charge, I could make everybody happier and better. And the degree that that then becomes, okay, these people are getting in my way, thus they are preventing the world from being better, thus they are the things that are bad, like, you know, on and on and on. Yeah, for sure. And, and like, to be just totally frank, I don't think there's a good answer. Like that definitely sounds like a bad answer to me, but like all the other ways of governing, I also think are largely terrible. Yeah. So, you know, I can understand the, not the appeal of, of authoritarianism, or of deciding to be the authoritarian oneself, but that, you know, it's very easy to me to be disillusioned with every other option also. Yeah. You know. And here, yeah, I, I thought there was, like, a lot good about that kind of, like him trying to convince her and kind of the whole, the whole deceit from the beginning, but then the reveal just really fell flat for me. That's fair. That's like, they, they just really lost me in the last episode. I, I guess what it was was that once it became clear, I thought it was so obvious that it just, it just felt really weird, the last episode to me, especially because they had the whole misdirect that I was like, you're not fooling it. We all know that's Gandalf. Come on. Like, come on. He's chilling with some proto habits. Like it's Gandalf. We know that. Yeah. And there I will say, um, I think I went for it a little further in part because I'd been partially spoiled, but it misunderstood the spoilers because interesting. There's that blonde androgynous servant of, uh, Sauron who, who, like, you know, comes to it. Yeah, there's the three people who show up and set everything on fire. Right. And the, and the blonde one, like, there was an article I saw that, that I think maybe this was, this was, maybe this was an intentional misdirect of a leak or maybe it was just the press getting stupid. But the leak I saw was like, is Sauron supposed to be the next heartthrob? And there was a picture of that person. And so I was like, Oh, so you thought that was Sauron? I thought that was going to be so. And so I was like, well, no, this, this guy from the boat can't be Sauron because it's, um, you know, so yeah, so, um, I got a little misdirected there. Well, that's useful, useful, anti-spoiler. Exactly. Um, let's move on to, I think we could do a full episode on any of these, uh, stories, but yeah, go too long. Listen and talk about our own storyline. Okay. Wait, did we talk about Galatriel? Is that what we were just talking about? Do we want to touch on the whole like, Hey, let's do a genocide of all the works thing. Just like briefly. Yeah, let's go into that because I, let's just touch on that. I, you know, to me, I would say to me, the only problem I tend to have with the Lord of the Rings world is that it has the D and D alignment problem, which granted D and D alignment is stolen from Lord of the Rings. So it makes kind of sense. But like, right, right, right. We've so, we've shown that like you can be a human or an elf or a dwarf and have quite a large range of morality. I, my sense is that they are asking us to believe that in this world to be an orc is to be a fundamentally evil creature and that killing orcs is a morally unambiguous good thing. And I feel like if that is the rules of the world, then Galatriel's actions make sense. I just don't love those rules of the world. If it's not the rules of the world, then there's a lot more to talk about with Galatriel's actions as well as a dwarf and a human and an elf a thousand years from now or 10,000 years from now or 3,000 years from now, whatever it is. Right. Yeah. So I actually thought that this, that the idea here was to be a somewhat more nuanced take on that, which interestingly, the first place I saw with regard to orcs was in a book by Ari Salvatore called The Orc King, where, you know, in D and D, like orcs are chaotic evil. That's just it. Right. I think. Are they lawfully? No, they're chaotic. Right. I think. Yeah. But like, this is an orc king who basically organizes a bunch of orcs and actually establishes a state, you know, like, like a kingdom of orcs. And, you know, there's still orcs in the way that orcs aren't orcs in D and D, but like there's, there's more nuance and intelligence and there's characters, right, in a way that there rarely had been before that, at least in anything I'd seen. And I think there's been a movement within, I think D and D in general to like kind of basically strike from the record, the idea that like different races have like different alignments, right? Because, you know, I mean, historically, like speaking of Ari Salvatore, like, you know, I loved Driss Jordan, right? One of my favorite characters of all time. I really enjoyed the Men's O'Baronzan trilogy. Actually, I guess only one of them is the dragon trilogy. These are all yeah, yeah, set in the Forgotten Realms or Dungeons and Dragons books and like novels, right? And, but you know, the whole idea of like Drow elves, you know, the dark elves being like, in general, inherently chaotic evil, and then like, you know, Driss is like the rare good one. It's like, well, that's horrible. You know, like, that's, that's, that's not good. And, you know, I think there's been this very deliberate move away from that. And I think, you know, one of the biggest complaints that I would have of the original, you know, Lord of the Rings movie trilogy was like, you know, the orcs are basically coded as, as black, right? Very much so. I mean, they literally are darker skin and the, you know, none of the humans, I think have dark skin or elves or dwarves, right? I think many of them have like dreadlocks, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That is well, right? And, and so, you know, that, that's a not good thing about those movies, right? And I think this series very deliberately tries to change that. I mean, it's kind of maybe a little ironic that like they make the orcs less evil at the same time that they have like some white actors playing someone that works. But you know, it's like, well, okay. But at the same time, like, I do think, you know, there was that whole scene of what is his name at our basically saying like, you know, we prefer the word or like, right? Like that's what we say. And orc is like, basically like a slur the way the way it's used. And so I do feel like, you know, the idea is that these were elves that were corrupted by Morgoth. But then he's like, oh, but we killed Sauron, you know, and made ourselves free. And now we're trying to make a homeland for ourselves. And like, you know, these humans who had, we haven't had good relationships with like, they can get lost or serve us basically, right? Although there is an elf that they're all kind of serving, right? Yeah, that's Adar, who is, he's an orok. Oh, okay, God. Which is he, he was an elf who, I think he's one of the original ones. I'm not sure. So I think the idea is that they basically were elves. Right. And then they got, and this is like hinted at, right? Or it's mentioned by Sauruman in the Peter, and fellowship, the rank. And so like, I think there's, there's some complexity here, and we still don't know all of the story, I think is the idea, right? That's like, we've just heard what this one, one person was saying by person, you know, especially with Sauruman is that he then kind of like the orokai, I think are something distinct, that those are ones that he specifically creates. Yeah, he crossed oroks with goblins, I think, and as a result, they could run in the daylight. Right. Because otherwise they, I mean, that's why they, you know, dark in the sky, and that's why they build these tunnels, right? Although, I know part of the complexity here is also that I think often people want to think that Tolkien had there's like just one laser cut lore that was always the same. My understanding is that especially in like, there's other stories in which like, orc is the human word and or goblin is the human word and orc is the elvish word for the same beings. So like, it's hard to put a finger on, but, but I think we were going all this is like, yeah, that like, it's hard to kind of have a definitive understanding of what the orcs are, but it does certainly seem like they're giving them more characterization and more motivation than just we are mindless evil commanded by Saruman or Sauron. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think there's, you know, they're people, right? And they're what they're trying to do seems bad, right? If you're like a person of the Southlands, but they have a backstory and I think Galadria like wanting to murder them all is, you know, that's just, that's not good. That's like, that's genocide and wanting to fight them when they are trying to invade a place and take it over and kill all the people there seems totally fine to me. Right. You know, but like once you've defeated them, you don't murder them all. I don't think there's necessarily an easy answer, right? But like, but yeah, I think that, I don't think we're supposed to hear her speech and like be like, oh, yeah, you, you go, you know, I think that was supposed to be like, oh, yeah, it's that moment of righteous anger and desire to fight the enemy becomes let's genocide the enemy, you know, exactly, exactly. And so I think, you know, she's not supposed to come off as this, this pure, wonderful, you know, person all the time. I think, I think she's supposed to be a complex character as well who has understandable motivations and wants to do what she thinks is good, but that within that, there's, you know, there's, there's also some, some horror. And I will say there's a bit of a tangent, but I think it's something you and I talk about all the time is that the danger often with prequels is like, we know where this character or this story is supposed to get. And you fill in more of the details, you still have to wind up in that right place. And yeah, at least we're glad real. You know, to me, one of the things the thing of the kind of beautiful untold stories, but that very clearly comes across in Lord of the Rings, particularly in fellowship of the ring is clearly glad real is deeply tempted by the power of the one ring. But also don't trust doesn't trust herself. You know, I think she would be, you know, a queen, you know, beautiful and feared and all should, you know, all should love me and despair. And like, I watch, glad you'll do this. And I'm like, yeah, I buy that she doesn't trust herself without much power. Because like, like, and TV, I was like, okay, that's actually a really good job of without lamp shading it without really forcing it. You're giving us more of an understanding of why as she gets older and wiser, she's like, no, no, no, no, don't give me that ring. That's that's, I might genocide the order. No one should have that ring, even me, even though I really like, I could, I could do some thing. No, no, no, can't do it. Can't do it. Put it in Mount Doom. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's true. And I think that that's part of the, like just the way all of that, like the writing off to war plays out is meant to be really complex. Right. Cause like, it is, right? I mean, it's just, it can be. And I think in a weird way, it does also, I want to, I want to learn a lot more about the new Minorians. In parts, I have no idea why this like, idiot kid is going to wind up king and defeating Sauron. But that's another story entirely. But I think one of the things that I was really fast, one of the things that at least those last episodes really showed me was, okay, I want to know a lot more about why the new Minorians are so isolated and don't trust the elves. But this whole experience is a pretty good example of why hey people of Numenor, maybe when bloodthirsty elves show up and want to go with you on a crusade, maybe put on the breaks a bit. Like, I don't feel like the end result of this for the people of Numenor is, no, we were wrong next time when the, the elves stay charged in a battle. We should go with them. Yeah. Although the queen seems still very much on, you know, right, on like team, like, let's go and let's get revenge on them now. You know, definitely. Yeah. Is there anything else? Excuse me. Let me go offline. You can move to Elrond. Well, here's the thing. I can't go too late tonight. Yes. So I think actually, I'm going to give us a couple more chances to talk about, like, other gradual stuff or other, like, just small stuff from Numenor, like, maybe a silly door in his family. And then I'm going to say wrap up, this will be part one, we'll be part two another time. Oh, sure. That works for me. All right. So my idea that we would cover all of this show in one episode was clearly a little bit farcical, as has never happened with you and I before. But instead of letting us turn into a three hour episode, because they do want to get some sleep tonight, I think we're just going to make this we'll just talk about Gladriel and the Numenor story and then we'll do all of Elrond and the heart foots, maybe on another episode that will be coming soon. Excuse me. So let me just kind of say then instead, and I will say we're going to do also we're going to get into a little bit of listener feedback after our last ad. But for you, Paul, is there anything else about Gladriel's story or about the kind of stories we get kind of tangential to her in terms of like the human captain from Numenor, meeting another sealed door and like his family? Any of that stuff that you really wanted to touch on? I really like to lend you as far as all of the non elf characters or elf or dwarf characters. I'd say he was probably my favorite. But yeah, in terms of Gladriel, like her not outing Sauron before they made the rings, she's like, no, no, let's make the rings first. Then let's talk about that other thing. Just trust me. Yeah, trust me. You know, both feels like I can't totally decide whether it just feels like contrived and like, come on, like just tell Elrond, you know, like, don't, what are you doing? But at the same time, I think there's this like, I mean, I guess we could talk more about the rings themselves next time when we're talking about Elrond and maybe Killa Brimbor or whatever. But like, she basically is like, let's go ahead and do that thing first. Right. Even though she knows that Halbrand is Sauron. So that feels like a very questionable decision. And I think the idea was we need to make these rings to like sell, save the elves essentially. And then we can go fight Sauron. Although the fact that Sauron was the one who was like, hey, why don't you, why don't you do this? Why don't you make these seems like it's like, okay, hold on, let's let's put this plan on hold and actually talk about everything we know. That seems like a very questionable decision. It did. And I will say, yeah, I definitely want to get into all the stuff about the making of the rings next time, because there's a lot of stuff about the elven king and all that that is very questionable. I think though, with Galadriel, I think it was a like, again, I'm trying to get away from binary right or wrong, but like on on the wrong side of things, like it's not a decision that I was like, yes, good. I'm glad you made that decision to not tell them. Right, it's not a slam dunk. I think the combination of A, that she does think the rings need to be made. B, that she still believes that she needs to be the one to kind of like lead the armies and to kind of bring about the end of Sauron. And then I think she still has a lot of resentment that like these guys never trusted her and never listened to her. And then there's this dual thing of like, you know, if you think that people were distrusting you for stupid, stupid reasons all along, and now you actually might have given them one very good reason to not trust you. But it's like, they're going to be like, okay, but that on top of all the other reasons we don't trust you, and she's like, no, no, but those are all wrong. Like, I can get why in her head, like, it's a really hard situation of like, if I tell them this, they're just never going to believe me for anything ever again, as well as a lot of her own shame and self gout about like, how could I have just missed that for so long? Like, yeah, so I don't, it feels like, oh, glad you all that was a bad decision, but I'm not like writers that was a bad decision to make her make. It feels very much decision that I could see glad you're making in that moment. Yeah, yeah, I guess I would say that it feels consistent with the character that we had gotten to this point. I kind of want her to be like a little, a little sharper and smarter, but it's a little bit of that like Batman and Lex Luthor problem, you know, where it's like, I, this is a character I want to be very insightful and to see things, but, but then, you know, she's up against this like, ultimate deceiver. And like, maybe her thing isn't that, you know, maybe she was blinded by like, thirst for vengeance, basically for so long, that it's just hard to make good decisions and hard to kind of see clearly. Right. And, and maybe the Galadriel we get in the Fellowship of the Rings is one who has grown, you know, through thousands of years of experience and living through this and maybe learned from her mistakes. So I can buy that as, you know, here she's a, a young elf of maybe a thousand something years or whatever. Yeah, she's a teenager. Right, exactly. I think this is like 20s. I mean, there's like 20s, you know, I mean, certainly, I think that this Galadriel would have taken the one ring and oh, yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I can, I can, I can see that, you know, that being an outcome. I could see her maybe finding a way not to, but like, I wouldn't be like, oh, she would never do that. I'd be like, yeah, story checks out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right, we're going to do one last bit of listener feedback. So you have the more to think about, there's no need to like do the stinger. I'm just going to do it as like, we're going to have one, one more ad break and then we'll go into the last bit, which is yeah, yeah, you don't have to call it a stinger. Yeah. All right. So we will have a lot more to say about rings of power. We'll get into that in another episode and we're going to get into a little bit of listener feedback to close things out right after this. Welcome back. Paul, this is a message we got primarily about the episode you were not on about Thor, love and thunder, but I know that you have seen it. It's also someone about Daredevil. Mostly though, it's about theology and faith, which I know are your favorite topics, but I think you may say, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm big on it. Because I did a great episode with Rabbi Micah, the pop culture, Rabbi, about the concept of theodicy, the idea of wanting to kill God as Gore the God butcher does. And some understandable reasons for doing that, the whole idea of like, why would God allow suffering, etc. And so a fan wrote in and I believe the title of this, it's spelled DCN. So I believe this is Deacon Stephen Brow wrote in the episode with Rabbi was wonderful. It is so refreshing to hear modern media treat religion and theology in such a mature and fair fashion, too often it seems media seems to disparage and denigrate religion and theology. Your discussion of theodicy and suffering brought me back to my formation years and the deaconate of the Catholic Church. I took a class at Santa Clara University on the theology of suffering. Your discussion with the Rabbi was a master class. As I remember the class, the nature of suffering was declared a mystery, but in the Catholic Church suffering is equated often with the way of the cross. Everyone has a cross to bear in life. The key to preserving and enduring the cross is to accept and work with the cross. Those who avoid or try to deny the cross are left with emptiness and frustration. Also, I just saw the last episode of Daredevil, episode 13 of season 3. At the end of the episode, Matt Merock explains that he questioned how God could let a boy go blind. Father Paul explained that life was God's tapestry and people could only view the backside of that tapestry. People only saw the ugly knots and strings. Father Paul tried to explain to Matt Merock that people do not know the will or plan of God and understanding suffering requires one to remove oneself from the situation and try to see it through God's eye, a very difficult task. Love your show and discussion of ethics. Peace be with you, Deacon Stephen Brown. Stephen, thank you so much for writing in. I love hearing different perspectives. I will say your perspective on theology of suffering. I'm not Catholic and that may be part of our difference, but also just other things. I definitely have a very different idea of suffering. I think I've even went into a lot of that in the episode, but I mostly reject the idea of a God who causes suffering or who is in charge of it. I have a very different understanding of the cross, but I definitely do hear what you're saying. I appreciate the way you're tying that discussion into what's discussed in Daredevil because of the, yeah, I think in many ways they're wrestling with the same question, which is if you are a person of faith and you have a belief in a God who is either all powerful or all knowing or all good or some combination of all of them, how do you even explain that suffering exists in the world? I really appreciate the way you frame those questions either. I don't think I agree, but I love the perspective. I'll now toss it over to someone who pretty much disparages the entire idea of faith, God, religion, theology, for his expert commentary on this topic. Paul, what's your take on this letter? Yeah, I mean, I would describe myself as extremely atheist as if that's not a binary, basically, but I'm kind of on Team Gore. I thought he had a good point for the most part. I think it's odd that his plan to kill Thor because he thought gods didn't care about people was to kidnap a bunch of people and threaten them. Yeah, to play a part of the empathy of a God with the whole point. I had not thought about that point, but that also, you're right, is a really good point. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, maybe think about your plan here and your motives, but yeah, I'm not a fan of suffering. I find trying to figure out like, I always, I struggle to kind of express what I'm trying to say because I want to make it very clear, first of all, that like, you know, people believe what people believe and I absolutely think it's horrible for people to be like discriminated against or really disparaged for what they believe, but I don't think that means that like, it's unreasonable to criticize those beliefs or basically be like, you know, I think there are certain beliefs that are very offensive. Yeah, you know, and obviously like thinking that like certain people don't believe, deserve life, like that's obviously patently offensive to the vast majority of people, right? Unfortunately, not to all people, but like, there's things that are just kind of transparently like, most people are like, yeah, well, that that's, that's, I don't, I don't like that. So I think to me, like, the idea that there is some divine purpose to suffering and that like, you just can't understand it because you're human, I've always found deeply offensive, like, and it makes me angry. Yeah, and you know, I can understand. And then like, the like response to that being like, oh, but you just don't understand it, I find just extremely patronizing. And it's like, well, how do you understand that I don't understand it? That doesn't, you know, it just doesn't, there's no logic there to me. And so I would say that I am extremely hostile to that point of view, while really trying to make very clear that I'm not hostile to people who hold that point of view, you know, I mean, like, we had a conversation a few episodes ago on one where, you know, I think you literally said the words, I don't believe that nonhuman animals lives have value, which, but while also saying that you thought the suffering was very, you know, was bad and should be minimized or limited. And like, that is a statement that I think, I think a majority of people share that opinion. And it's opinion that is just completely anathema to the way I see the world, you know, and it's hard for me to hear that and not like be filled with rage, you know what I mean? But like, at the same time, like, I love you, you're a great friend of mine. I think you're an extremely compassionate human being. And I'm not going to be like, Oh, I think you're just awful because you have this one point of view that I just have like, no, you know, and, and I think that's, that's just a real challenge in the world, right? Because I think, like, almost anyone, like the, like, just the vast majority of people, like, if we had a conversation about every single thing, there would be some number of things that would just be like, Oh, no, you know, and I know that I hold some opinions that like, I don't know whether you feel the same way to that extent, but that that we certainly disagree on, you know, yeah, I do want to clarify something. I think it's very possible. I misspoke at that point. I don't think I would ever have said, I don't think I would ever have meant that I don't think animal lives have value. I think that I, I don't give them the same lives as human lives, which would maybe just as anathema to you and be the same. But to me, there's a distinction there, but I think most of what you're saying, I think it's still so very accurate. I appreciate the clarification. And I do think that's a significant difference, you know. So yeah, and, you know, that I feel better. Okay, well, that's a clarification. But yeah, but I do still, you know, I think you also have, I try to never just kind of like think of like some of these have more life than others. I love to reject that kind of thinking entirely. But yeah, to me, I don't you place a value on animal life that's not quite what I would place it. And I think that, yeah, there is a point of real debate between us at times. Going back to this, though, the thing is though that like, and so tying all that conversation into this great letter, and again, by, you can see him growl, thank you very much for writing in. Yeah, I think even though I am a person of faith, Paul, I am every word you said about the, as I perceive it, again, I'm not trying to tell everyone else they're wrong. But as I understand faith and as I understand the world, to me, the idea that a God would cause suffering is incredibly offensive, is incredibly patronizing, I think is a fundamental misreading of the Bible, let alone any understanding of a compassionate God. But also to me is incredibly dangerous because I think one of the things that we see throughout history, and I think this is exactly Gore's point, is that most of the time, it's people who aren't really suffering, that when the people who are suffering say, hey, wait a minute, why are we suffering, but you're not? And those people say, oh, no, no, it's because God wants it this way. And because actually you're going to get your reward in heaven, or actually your whole, I wish I could suffer the way you could, your suffering makes you holy. Right. And I think that I, like, a lot of that theology was created when Christianity becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire. And all of a sudden, a religion that was a religion of the I give a whole, the whole school of liberation theology is fundamentally about rejecting that idea in many ways about saying like, no, like God stands with those on the underside of history. I'm not going to go into a few of the only two lecture, but just to say, yeah, I think I would agree with you, Paul, and pretty much all of that, that to me, I do believe in God, and I do believe a God who, like, stands with us in the time of suffering and who helps drive us to overcome suffering and to stop suffering. And I think there can be some, the ability in your own pain and suffering to see some sacredness of, like, being able to be in communion with others who suffer, and what you can learn from that. Like, there's a whole other way of looking at that theologically, that takes some of that idea. But I think the idea of, like, we don't understand why we suffer, but God has a plan and it's all like, no, that's, that's all utter, a curse word that I can't say on this, but I just do not agree with that. Fair, fair. I will say that I do really appreciate hearing the point of view, regardless of how much I disagree with it, because I don't know, I feel like it's just very thoughtfully expressed, and I find Matt Murdock's Catholicism the most compelling depiction of religion I feel I've seen in anything, really. Like, not the only compelling depiction, but, like, one of very few that, like, I really actually enjoyed. And in a character that I felt like I related to a lot, you know, and so that was a very interesting experience for me. Yeah. And I do want to say, I don't think either you or I is, like, saying, like, we're right and Stephen's wrong. I don't think Stephen is standing strongly on the side of, like, God understands suffering. I think, I think what Stephen's making, raising some really interesting questions about, like, the mystery of it all and things like that. Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely think I'm right. I'm just saying, I don't want to set Stephen up as the straw man we're both arguing against, because I think it's more-- Oh, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, I think you're wrong, too. Although, I agree with your, you know, it's closer to my point of view. But, like, I'm like, yeah, I mean, if, if, you know, you don't believe in something, you just don't believe in something, then the nature of it, it's like, well, it's like, well, I don't know. I mean, I don't really have a place in the conversation in that regard. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. You can sort that out. Yeah. But, yeah, definitely, Stephen, thank you so much for writing in. I think as we get back to other versions of Matt Murdock, I really hope his Catholicism and his theology will play, play a role in, because, yeah, like, like you, Paul, it is also part of, it is a part of him that I find the most fascinating, because I think he's, like, I told you, I'm rejecting one set of answers to those questions. I don't think I have the answers, though. I think we're all still wrestling with it and trying to understand it. And that's what I love about Murdock, is that he is wrestling with it. And that, to me, I think what makes Father Paul such a good character in Matt Murdock is that he doesn't just say, no, Matt, the Catholic Church teaches this, you're wrong. He's like, yeah, that's, these are tough questions, you know? And I think it's with Stephen, I think we're all like, Stephen, I really appreciate that you're kind of wrestling with these questions as well. We may be coming to somewhat different perspectives on it, but like, yeah, these aren't easy to answer questions. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I don't know. I mean, for me, I'm just like, what's the purpose of suffering? They're just suffering, like it just is. I don't know. I'm just a nihilist here. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. I don't think there's a purpose in suffering. I think if there is suffering, there can be a value in it. But yeah, the less suffering, the better, please. Yeah, I mean, I do think people can learn from suffering, for sure. You know, but yeah, I was, I was going for a walk thinking about ways that I was going to describe myself in words that are, you know, maybe too specific, but like hyper empathic nihilist was one of them. I mean, I do think it's funny. I feel other people suffering, like acutely, you know, yeah. And in some ways, that might be also a better way to describe the animal kind of conversation we're having is that when I see and I read about and I understand animal suffering, I have an intellectual understanding that that is wrong and bad, and I don't want them to happen. It doesn't tug on my heartstrings and my compassion in quite the same way. Yeah. Whereas like, I feel physical discomfort. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, as I do with humans as well, you know, like Rachel Mundy also wrote in a really nice email. She did not want written in the air, but I just wanted to kind of thank Rachel for the great email. It was really supportive and wonderful. And I greatly appreciate it. So one last email, and we'll close this out. And I'll also say the read, some of these are pretty old. We were getting a bunch of feedback from months ago that was going to the wrong email address. Well, let me restate that. For the last couple of months, I have switched to a new email address, but I realized it hadn't been switched yet on the Stranded Panda podcast channel. I think I might have said the wrong email address a couple times. And I thought I had it set up to forward, but apparently it wasn't forwarding. So that's why I've been digging back and being like, Oh, here's some feedback from like months ago. But for anyone in the future, it's always Matthew at the ethicalpanda.com. I think I have everything set up now to auto forward. So if you do send it to the ethical panda at Gmail or superhero ethics, Gmail or Star Wars universe podcast at Gmail, it should all forward. But the best way is always Matthew at the ethicalpanda.com. This one comes from TJ Stafford. And we've got some time and there's a lot in here. So I didn't really get a chance to cut these down. But I will say to everyone, I love all the thoughts. I love all the nuance. But if you can make it not more than a page, that would be very helpful. A couple paragraphs can be great. But she wrote in terms of reading it on air, particularly, right? At least he also acknowledged it. TJ says, I'll try to keep it brief, but I love the show so much. So I wouldn't count on it. Sorry, not sorry. And the show they're talking about is Stranger Things season. What are we on there? Four or five? Four four four point five is what it was. Okay. So spoilerless for anyone who hasn't seen spoilers that they did it to us again. They Bob knew beat us. They spent a whole season us endearing us to a character only to kill them at the end. I assume he means Billy. They do this in order to give us quote significant character death without actually killing off any of the core characters. Oh, Eddie, I'm sorry, not Billy. Yeah, yeah, Eddie. Billy was season three or something. Yeah, that's right. Billy was the brother who was awful until we liked him. Until he wasn't awful. And then they killed him. Yeah, I thought Eddie was a wonderful addition to the show. And I would prefer to keep him around a bit longer to see what else he could bring to the table. Having said that, if they just had to kill him off, at least they did it well. His final scene with Dustin was pretty powerful. And Dustin's conversation with Enoch. I mean, Eddie's uncle was was as well. I think that's a Asian social preference. Even if the whole world will forever think of Eddie as a monster, at least those that knew him knew the truth. And the series doesn't end with Dustin carrying on the leadership of Hellfire. I'll be sorely disappointed. I can go behind that. Although the group made even think about rebranding. If they're going to kill off anyone, I think it should have been a main character. But conversely, when I thought they were killing Max, I was enraged. She was my top three favorite characters before the season. But within the first couple of episodes of the season, she stole the title and ran away with it. So I had feelings about what happened to her. I was impressed if they were going after a major character. I was distraught that it was her. And they're for very torn about where things ended with her. I'm also wondering if Ashley is going to get her possession plot after all. Max seems right for the picking due to her constantly comatose state. I'll be sure to ask Ashley that in an upcoming episode. I'm going to do her. I have so much more to get into, but I guess I should be considered of your time. Yeah, I can edit if I want to. So I'm just going to rapid fire a few last thoughts before closing out. Russia plot still can't make myself care that much. Jonathan Nancy drama, I roll Papa. I'm glad he's dead. After that guy, he needed to suffer more. You're glad you'll agree on a lot of things. Last thing, do we think Jason is really dead after falling to the rift or do you think you might return as Vecna's funky next season? I'm making myself stop now. I can't wait to hear what you all have to say about these last two episodes. If you can call them that. Thank you for continuing to create a platform for us geeks to gush over the things we loved. TJ Stafford. PS my fantasy league started an online D&D campaign after the first part of the season, but I'm sure the timing that's pretty coincidental. Well, I hate that PS because it reminds me and I'm still not in a D&D campaign. I wish I was. But yeah, obviously we have since he, TJ wrote this to us before our coverage of the last couple episodes that that coverage is now up. You can find all of that. But TJ raised a lot of great questions. What are kind of your thoughts, Paul? Yeah, that that episode that that I actually hosted about those two movies that were the last two episodes of season four. I asked you to turn the podcast without a scratch and you in fact did not knock off a major disc on top of the podcast. So you did better than right. Exactly. Better than Lando. I'll take it. Yeah, the whole I mean, I guess I said in that episode what I had to say about major character deaths and character deaths and whatever, but I feel like this show has basically laid the ground rules in a way and then which is like the main characters are going to be okay, at least until the last season. And if we introduce a new character, don't get too attached. Yeah, like, you know, the more you like them, the more likely we're going to kill them off. And I thought you know, Eddie's like the whole thing with playing master of puppets on the roof of the trailer was amazing. And then they went back through the thing and then him like going off to like it. It felt like, okay, they're doing the thing, but like I knew they were going to do the thing. So wasn't as bad. I don't know. I always find the like the like need to see like a major character killed off like a little and I'm not saying that's necessarily what TJ is saying, but like, that's not what I want. Yeah, you know, it's like, I don't know. I don't I don't feel like those stakes are necessarily they're not necessary to me. But like, yeah, I agree definitely about Oh, the Nancy Jonathan enough enough. And you know, like, and you know, the Russia thing I was fine with, but it also was a little bit like, okay, like, yeah, oh, so we're you're gonna you're gonna go back into the print. Okay, so you broke out, then you get brought back and then you break out and then you go back and then you and then you go, okay, yeah, I didn't love Russia. I definitely thought that Papa getting some sort of like little bit of validation with 11 at the end. I was like, no, this person was just a child. I mean, I guess I can see it from like the he as abusive as he was, he was a parental figure to her, but still like, it was just awful and abusive. And I did I'm glad that she just like walked away from his pleading corpse. But yeah, I think I I am more in favor of character death than you are, because I do think it's not that I need it. And I certainly don't want it to become formulaic, but I do appreciate when characters die. And I think in some ways, like, I think it gave Eddie's character a wonderful arc. I will say that in some ways, I'm kind of glad I'm watching I'm reading this feedback now, rather than when TJ first wrote it in, because since then there's another TV show that I've been, because since then there's another property that I've watched that and Paul and I have talked about and I want to give me spoilers is something totally different. But where we've talked about that actually like sometimes having a character just die instead of having like the the great heroic moment death is a lot more satisfying. And we're talking about like that that sometimes the every character gets to have this like great heroic death where the music swells and they make a brave last stand is kind of frustrating sometimes. And like, I hadn't thought about it at the time, but the more I think of it, like, yeah, like, I think for Eddie to die during that sequence would make sense. And like, the very fact that they're doing it is heroic. But him like being almost about to get out, but then being like, no, I've got to go back and like save things one more time. And maybe it is actually helpful, but like it's not really clear that it is. And it just it's it was done in such a way of like 30 seconds of buildup that you know, absolutely in your bones, he's about to die. And I just think if it had just been them like rushing, rushing, rushing and him like, you know, giving Dustin one more push and then just out of nowhere, one more thing comes and kills him. Like, that would have worked a lot better for me. Yeah, yeah, me too. I mean, that they did the same thing with Samwise, right? I mean, this rings a power episode. So you gotta gotta make the connection. But like, I mean, when he when they showed the shot of like the gun sitting on the table before like Bob went back out, I'm like, Oh, they're gonna kill him off. Like, you know, it's just I there's there's an extent to which, though, I'll say I kind of appreciate that because I feel like as much as this show is horror, I feel like it's it's a little bit of a cozy in some ways. Yeah, you know, like it's not it doesn't like it feels like it's not everybody gets killed and there's an unhappy ending horror. Yeah, I don't know. And so I appreciate when a show basically tells you in the early going kind of what it's about, you know, and kind of what the rules are. And, you know, like episode one of Game of Thrones, someone pushes a child out a window, right? Like that, that tells you some things about the show, and then you proceed at your own risk, right? Yeah. Spoilers for Game of Thrones episode one, but but like yeah, and by the way, it also dies. More spoilers. Oh, yeah, and that kind of tells you what the show is going to be going forward. And I that's not a show that I really liked at all, but I do appreciate that early on, they made clear that's kind of what they were doing. And as much as the last season wasn't my least favorite season of the ones that I watched, I do empathize with people who had kind of been presented with a series doing one thing and then all of a sudden it's doing it a different way. And I will say that the series that you were talking about has managed to kill off a lot more characters without really bothering me in the same way that a lot of shows do because it feels matter of fact, and it feels like the show set up. No, this is this is how this is going to work. And so I feel like the expectations were set and stranger things like, I don't know, maybe they'll feel like they need to kill off a main character in the last season. I think that's likely I don't really like that, but like, you know, whatever. I think it also feels different. Like Bob, Bob Newby was in the first season, if I remember, right? No, no. Second season? Yeah. Well, my point, the demo dog season, yeah, season two. That's true. But my point is we haven't had, well, okay, did we have a major character death in season one? There was justice for Nance, right? Yeah, not Nance. What's it? I guess what I'm saying is like, if it had been established that we were going to have a major character death at the end of every season, I mean, no, I should take it. Never mind. I'm not going to say that because all that's false. I'll start that again. Yeah, I think I hear where you're coming from. And like, there was so much about Eddie that I loved, and I would have loved to see him continue. I think it made sense for his character. I think, I just don't really know where they really would have gone with him in another season. But, and I get the idea of like, just sort of show just how bad things are going to be in this last season that we've got to up the stakes a little bit. But you're right, I feel like, if there's an earned death for another main character next season, I am, I will enjoy it. But I certainly don't want it to feel like someone has to die. And I will be perfectly okay. Like, I will be okay if Max is dead or if Max is possessed. Like, I love the character. I love the actress. Absolutely. But like, I'm okay with that. I think they earned it in this season. But I definitely think like, if a character dies next season and it works, sure. But I'm not going to be angry if the whole gang survives. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say I'd enjoy it. But like, you know, I'll watch the show and I'll feel how I feel, you know, just as for Barb. That's the character we're looking for. Yeah. And that was like early on in the season. So, but you know, I mean, some people were upset about that, you know, and kind of the way like she was just treated as kind of irrelevant. I think it was less that she died. Yeah. Even though I have a theory like maybe a lot of these people aren't actually dead dead, like they're maybe part of Vecna now. And I think it could be complicated. I do find if you almost kill a character and then you don't and then you do kill them that I know. Thank you. Oh, yeah. No, no. Share what I got. I can't remember his name. Sheriff man, the father figure to Hopper. Yeah. Hopper has to have plot armor from now on. I'll be so right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There was there's enough times that they made it seem like he died that then if then he didn't die, then it's like, okay, you can't do it again. Yeah. And I will say that also, I think that's probably another big reason why I didn't like Russia more than I did because I was like really like, yeah, okay, Hopper's dead. We all have to deal with that. And then I think there was kind of a teaser at the end of the season that he's not dead. And I was like, I don't love this, but we'll see. And so then I could have felt like, okay, if you're going to bring him back, which I don't love, you've got to really like give me a really good reason for it. And him just running around in Russia for the whole season was like, just let him be dead. Like that would have been a more powerful story. Yeah. I think the idea is like in season five, then they get to be like a family or something like that. Maybe. I don't know. But like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Jonathan can die. I'm perfectly okay with that. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. I've said what I have to say. Yeah, that's fair. But yeah. Anyway, I do want to say one more thing about stranger things that isn't really about stranger things, but I want to say that I really enjoyed Enola Holmes too, which is Milly Bobby Brown's, you know, nice, Holmes related mystery thing. So both you and Jessica Plummer have told me really good things. I did not enjoy the first Enola Holmes in part because I thought like just Sherlock felt so unsure luck for me. And I also just I kind of felt like they weren't giving her character enough credit in all of us. But like, I don't think I remember not liking it. I then put it mostly on my mind. So I don't remember why I didn't like it as much. But I'll give it a shot because I keep hearing good things about it. Yeah, I would say without spoilers, I thought the second one was better than the first one, which I enjoyed, but I didn't love the first one. The second one, I definitely enjoyed more. And I think, you know, maybe, maybe you'll feel differently about some of the things that there's a couple things that I think it does really well, that a lot of things do very specifically poorly. So I hope that you do watch it. And then we actually covered it at some point because detection is a superpower that I would agree with that. I would agree with that. And Sherlock Holmes is like a Superman. Yeah, I think that's fair. All right, so let's wrap up. But clearly, as you as you can see, we love feedback. We will happily discuss your feedback. You can send it in if you go to the ethicalpanda.com and find all the great places to send us feedback. The best way being Matthew at the ethicalpanda.com. But also, you can find our feedback our Twitter as long as Twitter exists, I may well be creating a hive mind that that I hear is the new thing that's replacing Twitter. Someone was promoting the idea of something called a tribe social as the thing to replace Twitter. And like the word tribe having a lot of kind of like not kind of appropriating a word from indigenous communities. They don't really love and way a lot of people are not very happy with it. So rather not go something called tribe. But, but you know, the the mastodon I've heard good things about, but also very complicated things. This other thing, the hive, maybe we'll check it out, but we'll see. I'll keep you all up to date with that. But most importantly, just send us your feedback. What do you think? What do you think about all the stuff we talked about today in terms of rings of power? What do you think about the feedback we talked about? Do you want to not hear? Do you want to hear me and Paul get into more theological discussions or very much not? What's your take on that? Send it all to us. Meanwhile, Paul is Zen madman, but googling Zen man man, you find all the cool things Paul is up to. Paul will be coming out of their cave sometime after November and telling us more about the cool things they're up to. So wait with anticipation to that. And mostly as I, well, I was going to do a whole thing about how thankful I am, but actually recordings a few days before Thanksgiving. So come out after Thanksgiving, but I will just say I am just so thankful to you all as fans. I'm so thankful. I realized that this podcast has been on the air for six years now, and the numbers keep going up. The feedback is great. It has been. I started this podcast a pretty hard time in my life, and Paul was incredible help to that. But just getting all the feedback with you and getting me feel like I'm having these conversations with you has really made such a difference for me. And I hope it has made a difference for you. And I hope you've enjoyed these. And so I hope you have a good Thanksgiving. If you're not in a world where Thanksgiving is given at this point in time, I hope that just do whatever the hell you do in your country. And I hope it's good. And you get to enjoying food with friends and family is always a good thing. So I'm totally babbling now and I'm trying to sign off. Zed man man, Zen mad man, Google it. The ethical panda Google it. Have a good night. Have a good day. Peace be with you. Have a good day. And everyone's having their own revolution. Fox out word. Just a short little 30 minutes of feedback. All right, I'll hit stop and I'll
