Out Now With Aaron and Abe
Out Now Bonus: Megalopolis
Okay, this is out now with Aaron and Abe. I am Aaron Abe is out on vacation, but this is another special bonus episode where I spoke with Terrence Johnson about France's sport copel is the begalopolis recorded right after I had seen the film as I will explain in a second. Here we go. Go. Now. From visionary writer and director, Francis Ford Copeland comes an event nothing can prepare you for. Imagine today's society as a branch of civilization. About to reach a dead end. Is this way we're living? The only one that's available to us. All right. I'm here now with the man from the Nwah Auteur, Terrence Johnson. Hello. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. We are in person. Yes. Speaking in each other's faces. Uh huh. So that we don't do for a podcast. Yes. We talk a lot. Literally. We never do this podcast. Literally. Never do this podcast in person. So I have you here with me because I just got out of a screening of megalopolis and it's IMAX fan event, whatever they want to call it showing. Uh huh. You've seen megalopolis and you've desperately wanted to talk about megalopolis. Now I'm coming in hot with this because I literally just got out of the theater. So I have very fresh opinions. Okay. On the film, but that's what we're going to do right now. We're going to talk about the film Megalopolis, Francis Ford Coppola's Megalopolis, as it says on all the posters. Yes. Um yeah. Let's do that. The movie I've messaged you and was like the second you walk out of the theater I need to review. So I'm glad we're doing this because I saw it last month. Two months ago. No, I saw it in July. Okay. And the amount of movie you get in this movie is so astounding. I don't know if it's good, but you do get a lot of movie. An entirely fair statement. Yeah. I thought um so my before I'll tell you my thoughts from sure. I like it's a lot of movie. Some might say too much. I might be one of the some that said too much. I think that it I was enthralled by like the setting and the vibe of like modern day ancient Rome. And I thought it was going one place and then the movie went another. And so that's why I don't know if it was good, but like the setting like the sort of Shakespearean because like when it first started I was like oh he's just doing like a Shakespeare adaptation. Like one of Shakespeare's play and we're going in a Julius Caesar direction and then it sort of zigs and zags and weaves and goes in these weird like it even now it's hard to explain what the hell that movie is. Yeah, that's a very fair way to put it. It describing what this movie is is not going to be something that's simple for the general audience that walks in and it's like oh yeah no no Apple is I saw that it's about Adam Driver and dot dot dot like so I guess I just got it. So I'm forming opinions or what have you but I do have some main takeaways that can kind of surmise where I'm out with it because I I mostly really like this movie. A lot of that comes from the fact that I just admire the ad the ad the ambition which I think I unless you're just just really against this film I feel like it's at least hard to deny that there's ambition on display a lot yes there's from a filmmaker who certainly has a reputation for going big or experimenting in any number of things he certainly it doesn't feel like he's lost any steps in like what he's trying to do here yeah so the two the two main things that caught me one is having my my last year of college where I was a history major my last year of college ancient Rome was was one of my main courses for college so I have a pretty solid notch like the timeline of things happening or whatnot and all the just familiarity with the topic and like not that movies are the way to like understand like there's a lot of movies that deal with a lot of the things that are happening honestly of the characters based so regardless I hearing that Copa wanted to make a film that was what if ancient Rome was fitted on top of modern America yeah I didn't realize how literal that was going to be yeah so that really caught me up guard because it's not just like oh that's a neat concept it's no no you have a Caesar you have Crassus you have all these characters are like I I know what this story is yeah which is also like like if I really wanted to figure out how to tell this like tell somebody what this movie is I could probably find a way to do that based on just what Rome was which I do find interesting that's a that's a neat thing that did not see coming I thought it would be more or less the idea of a Rome as opposed to know it's straight up ancient Rome like yes filtered through like Shakespeare's version of Julius Caesar along along for other Shakespeare things like you mentioned there's there's a lot of Shakespeare out his mind of yes um so so that's one thing the other thing I'm saying I think I think it's mostly very good because I do think that I feel like the climax is not big enough for me it's clunky I feel like it kind of like reaches an end point and I'm thinking that's I feel like we could have gone bigger like for a movie that was already going very big for its two hour and 20 minute run time like oh we just got to stop like I get what it's doing and it leans into Coppola's optimism that he's trying to express throughout this film through drivers character main obviously but also mainly but it does feel like for all the stuff that we set up and all the characters you have to work with and all the potential devastation that could be on display it kind of just like wraps up really quick like oh we're done yeah I don't think it I don't think it earned the optimism I would agree and I wonder if hewing more to a Shakespeare tragedy yes but from the tragedy comes the optimism we would have ended up in a better place because like they he really rushes the hell out of this ending like the people that need to get their come up and get their come up and and we're happy and everything is going to be fine and great moving forward and it's kind of like but that is not the tale we just watched let alone the tale of I mean Caesar ultimate okay and it's so I loved the grafting of ancient Rome onto sort of modern New York City in the ways that it was like like the costuming yes you know the the characters the production design like how people were relating to each other the the like the politics of it I thought was I thought that was really fascinating and so like at every moment I just was like I yes I will do another Madison Square Garden as the Colosseum moment like I I will accept that because it's so cool and interesting how he's trying to graft it on there it just it goes so many wild places like that's why I don't think the optimism is earned because like at one point it feels like it feels like ancient Rome mapped on the New York then it's like a drug-induced haze like when when Colblum wants to have this idea in the 70s you know he after he in his delirium while deadly sick trying to film apocalypse now right it was like I had this brilliant idea he has yeah he has been working like he's he started writing in the 80s because he's had this idea for decades he you know it's it's gone through so many various forms and yeah because there I do feel like there's some interesting ideas within it and like actually just to pause you real quick yeah like because there was a Q&A beforehand before the movie started featuring Francis Ocopola Robert De Niro and Spike Lee which is a bit odd when I say that out loud he's like why are those two there not like actors from the film regardless that was something Robert Niro briefly spoke on he was actually he read in an original early early reading of the script with other people and he mentioned himself Uma Thurman and Paul Newman were all there at the time Robert De Niro would have been the Adam Driver character at that point in time and Uma would have played Natalie Natalie Emmanuel yeah wow Paul Newman I assume would be like John Voigt I guess yeah oh no he would have had a time with that part yeah um yeah it like I don't like it's it's to me it's not good it's not terrible like it's not good it's not because like even even I just wasn't on like a rollercoaster with this movie where at points I was like this might be the dumbest thing I have seen this year and other points where I was like oh this is really fascinating I see why a director would want to do this I see what he's going here I see the themes you know and how interesting it feels and sometimes both of those thoughts came in the same scene um I agree with you and I but although I do I do like the movie more of you but in terms of like what he's aiming for tonally what I like about a lot of copeless stuff when it comes to his like ways of experimenting whether it's you know his or you know whether it's one of his early 70s masterpieces his 80s experimental stuff or even something like Tetro um been his 2000s like I always feel like he's aware of the movie he's making and by that I mean I know there's you know there's movies where you can watch where it's unintentionally funny or there's something that there's a camp value that's maybe not intended at the time but it becomes a part of the conversation when you talk about the movie I I'm not going to say that copola has just the finest reads of anyone that could ever think of anything that's funny or what have you but I do think when he's looking at his movies and the way the reason why he has so many edits of his movies and why he takes so long to make his films I think it's because he's well aware of the kinds of responses and kinds of reactions his scenes can generate and he's not one that's opposed to having mixed reactions to his films because he likes provoking conversation he likes to be a provocative does that that's not me saying that the movie is inherently good because he does that I do think he has more of a self-awareness than other filmmakers in general and I think having that self-awareness is good I think you know in terms of him trying to make it provocative I do think sometimes this movie's attempt to sort of be extremely showy or be extremely in your face with certain things I think does a disservice to the story like I'm thinking of Adam Driver's characters sort of drunken haze that we're in and it feels like it comes in and around that Coliseum Coliseum Madison Square Garden as a Coliseum scene where I think some really like impactful character work is being done I think some really so it like it like provokes right and it sort of brings you into the mindset of this character but it is so weird that it like it took me away from like the rhythm I had finally developed with the story and then I had to get like back in that same rhythm but I was like you already you had me so it sort of knocked me off of the alignment and in the time it took me to get back something else would come and knock me off the alignment and like in a way like I just mentioned Apocalypse now like I think about you know he's in that hotel room and he's sort of going right like that's the kind of like he so we know Francis Frank Coppola can do that yes it just is here it it honestly goes it honestly went on too long I think if you had shortened it that specific sequence that specific sequence you know it there are just moments like that where I'm like I get where you're going to the excesses and I'm here for it in certain arenas but like you have you're telling a modern version of an ancient tale you are also doing a love story you are also doing a family drama you are also doing a sci-fi movie and it's like this it's a lot of elements it's a lot of elements which I don't think I don't think that you can't have all of them because like I do say it is working at certain times but I do think that like at his most showy he like gets away from what's interesting and it like stops being about the blend of these things and his thoughts being more about like let me do this really trippy sequence or let me do this really weird thing over here you know like you got it let me let me look at these things piece by piece yes I try to remember everything you just ancient story I know I'll say that we've covered that in regards to like what he's done in the past when it comes to how do you depict certain states of mind or what have you I would to that I would say well he's done versions of that before therefore I like the idea that he's experimenting with new ways to tackle tackle that so yes it is very bad it can be and is there perhaps an excess in certain points yes perhaps there are now what I would say to that is I what another thing I do like about co-opola is his films are very layered layered in a sense where I'm not saying you have to see you have to see it more than once to really get it but I do think but I but I look forward to seeing this again I I but I do I do believe that it he's one of the kinds of filmmakers I think Wes Anderson is a very modern version of another one where there is a great benefit to continuing to dig deeper by seeing it again that I think there's enough to explore where there's a benefit of getting of of of wanting to take that journey a little deeper that's not that's not saying it's a requirement but I do think there's a benefit because he's a filmmaker that looks at things like you don't look at paintings once why do you necessarily need to look at a movie once again there's different commitments involved yeah I'm still painting versus a movie but I do think he has that kind of ingrained spirit when it comes to filmmaking it's not about looking at something once and never paying attention to it again it's like no I've made something designed for you to come back to it and maybe you take away different interpretation what now what I'm saying to all that what I'm in saying all that I do feel like the things that perhaps regardless of you perhaps I'm hung up on if if anything those are things that I feel like those could wash away for me as far as being really problems in the in the future and more just things I will either feel less you know troubled by or what have you just more be more accepting of that's what this that's what he was going for with this particular vision if I want to speak to why I did like this movie I mean and we can talk about individual performances and we'll have you soon enough I for the thing I was constantly engaged by it yeah I don't think that's a hard thing to ask a movie like this that's specifically trying to you know either provoke you or stimulate you or any number of things to kind of just keep your attention I it's sir I don't know if I'd say fast-paced but I would certainly say it is doing a lot it moves it moves um and I mean you mentioned costumes so I mean you know he spent a hundred million dollars on the movie it looks like a million dollars yeah I'm not gonna I'm not gonna you know I think with that the ending I'm not good yes and I'm not going to say it's like the the the greatest use of special effects but it's also essentially an independent film so it's easy for me to kind of like go of how how much you know how how how how great it looks compared to fucking James Cameron I mean like I get what we're doing here on what was it gonna say I don't always thought um stuff that you like I'm trying to like there was a specific thing um that I want to get to that's not performance related because we'll get to that a second um oh the kind of the shit you mentioned like the showiness the show there's a showmanship and I mean seeing Coppola you know he's one of these guys right him and Spielberg and Lucas yeah and um and and Scorsese and like the poem is kind of there on the background um so Spielberg obviously he's gone the biggest as far as like kind of maximized filmmaking and did for quite an audience's and revolutionizing blockbusters um Scorsese has got a different direction in terms of like he is a prestige guy they're both prestige guys but I mean you know he's more overtly I'm not here to like market to the six-year-olds I'm here to like yeah make thought-provoking films based on my own with Coppola and Lucas I find them both interesting for a blog with all the other things that are interesting but like what Lucas isn't doing is capitalizing on the stuff he talks about he's like I have all these ideas for movies he never makes him he's not doing that Coppola has Coppola has put himself into a place where yes he made the godfather which like saved movie theaters 1972 essentially yeah but out you know after doing these giant films you know those two godfathers he was still able to make his conversation he was still able to make a apocalypse now a film that nobody wanted him to make and he made it anyway but he made arguably his best movie and I mean his 70s oh yeah I let you yeah and I comic-runner movies yeah so then you get to his 80s where he's back and forth as far as I'm funding stuff and I'm losing I have to make other movies to make up for the fact that I'm losing he's a guy that will he's gone out of his way over and over again to if he has something on his mind he wants to explore that that seems very apparent here as well yes he's look beyond the fact that he's put in so much of his own money to make Kevin Costner blush for this movie he really wants to he really wants to play like what does that mean for me as a director and that's not just get actors put in front of camera and they're read a script it's much like Tetra was I'm gonna do live and it's like I'm a fucking DJ on stage here he's like I'm gonna stop this movie halfway through turn on the lights and have someone in the theater start screaming lines at the screen that would make it this weird interact development yeah that I that really got me together I was like what is happening when I thought yeah without providing context for why that's happening there is and I'm not sure if it's gonna play only iMac screens of this film or I can't imagine it's every that's ridiculous yeah but i definitely can't do that but the presentation we had that up above I had that everyone of the iMac screening for today and that Terrence apparently had as well there's a portion in the film where a press conference takes place the lights in the theater go up and there's like a person in the theater that like screams out a question as if they're participating in the press conference it's going it's going on within the film am I saying that this is the greatest idea ever we should revolutionize no am i doing this no i'm not saying that but the fact that he wants to like like how do i like i'm not George Luke is i'm not star where i can't let's create new special effects what's the thing that me france is worth coplican do i like that that's where his headset where he's like what if i did like what if i made this work and that's like i can't take that for granted that he's like this 80 year old man who's like i've just i wanted i want to play with the things that i have that are i love the idea of the exploration and and even that press conference moment did it take me out of the movie yes but like it felt in line with like the excesses yes of the film and it's like interesting exploration like in that way because i do think obviously frances for copula had a very for not a decade even the other directors you named would dream of sure of course you know 70s like even even in spielberg as great as spielberg is and has been uh-huh scorsese as great as he is has been i don't we could put yeah france for a couple has run in the 70s is oh there were all jealous of him yeah question you know and like with the types of movies you know obviously people felt a way about spielberg because he was the commercial director and like you know frances for copula i think what's so fascinating about that like that man later in life is like obviously the godfather is a great movie but you know they tried to fire him multiple times right apocalypse now they got hit with the hurricane everybody got sick every possible thing the lead almost died right like in the conversation it's like okay jean you have an oscar and a jean hackman but like this interior san francisco set but like so it's like his his movies in a way like in that particular run or like a lot of their greatness obviously could be contributed to him but just in like a i don't know if they were supposed to be like the surefire massive hits maybe the godfather because it was the best-selling novel but like the other so he's got that sort of like in a way that i think that lucas had a little bit like obviously star wars is like this massive giant thing that we have today but like you know if it was going to be so popular and amazing they wouldn't assign the merchandise rights away from him right so it's it is interesting it's why it's it speaks to why the 70s it's just the greatest decade of film there's so many weird risks and experiments yeah the late late you know this and we talked about in cold blood about how you know so i was like well i don't know if you could make the movie like this today uh you know it's very similar to the 70s and and so like i'm glad that spirit of experimentation still with him even these days i do think that like not that this movie needed an editor because obviously it's been through many revisions and it's been in different forms and with different actors but i do think and it's not even about necessarily raining in the excess i just think it was maybe like like centering it more that's yeah i can you know i can see what you're saying there because i after a while i was kind of like okay like he the daughter of the rival they're working together now they're like like there's like all of these elements and it's like okay even the the time stopping the the sort of speculative fiction aspect of it you know is like okay like interesting we're playing with time we're thinking about you know what we can do with the time that we have and if we have more time what can we do and like there's all these there's these themes and it's like and then shyla buff becomes the leader of the minorities i very you know very rich it can't have the feel of you know and i and i hate i hate this generalization that people use is like oh there should have been a series i don't like that at all it does there is an aspect of this that's like you could really stretch this out into being this you know there's definitely a many different series of television there's there's that kind there's that amount of plot going on within this yes i don't think that necessarily means transfer covid i should have made this a no i don't thought i'm not saying that whatsoever but i do feel like yes he's trying to cram so there's a kitchen sink approach going on here yeah based on the fact that it's a giant passion project that's how giant passion projects usually work they put everything they can into yeah they don't know if they're going to get to do it again and i think i think in moments it's like he's having real fun like i like we can talk a little bit about performance our replies was my favorite performance in this movie okay here is a woman who understands the movie that she's in and frances and frances was like i want you to do this and she says i got it and it's so like even when she's even when that character's at the most unhinged the most silly the most whatever i was i was always in lockstep with that character because i was like she's matching the excesses of what frances is trying to go for but there's still like a sort of a real grounded person in there and so i really really dug that that's a good thing to point out that there's that the fact that yes goes high but there is a grounded person with the side of there because i i would say i don't think this is a bad casted movie at all i think everyone rather very much fits what they're doing yes but i could agree that there are others that that feel more they feel implemented in just the right way because yes there's some inner thing going on there that i can really feel where others are just there because hey we're here we can show up i think Natalie and Adam are were solid um i think i think adam adam just has some just unenviable task of like anchoring some of the thing he has so much to do craziest foolishness in this movie and so i do think but like the performance is not bad and it's it's tough because he's playing sort of like a detached guy you know who becomes attached but like can't outwardly express that it that's one of the things i look forward when i eventually see that i'm gonna raise this is really when you rewatch it and you become the person asking the questions in the interview portion exactly when i be on the audience player no that is the performance i want to look at more closely as far as looking at all the different things he's required to do because i do think he's he has to do obviously he has to do it he's the lead he has to do a lot and i do think that can be a tricky kind of that's you know if anybody that has like the lead performance in the midst of an ensemble cast where so many of them are doing a certain thing when you put someone in the lead that's generally a more you know quote unquote boring role adam drab is not a boring actor so he doesn't really have that problem generally he knows how to take his quirks or take what you know whatever essence he's going for and kind of bring that out but this is a film that yes it puts it it puts him not only in a task of like leading this thing but also he has to have a very distinct personality compared to everybody else where everyone else is pretty much looking out for themselves to some degree yes that's a great way of saying he's the only one who's he's the theme of the movie which is you know unity and doing all these things for a greater good and whatnot he's he's the one that's outwardly representing that that spirit which is what copos old thing is with this movie so it's like that's a tough job i agree with you that he's good in it is i don't think it's his best performance but i still think he's very good in it i would agree in idly a manual i think she's also very good as this kind of idealist that wants to see the best in people um it has to try not to get dragged down into the mud like everybody else that's around her seems to be including g carlos was you know um fun g carlos music he's having a good time i like it is not playing just evil bad guy because that's so much of what he's been given these days so like that's true i like that he has this kind of he's one that also has this kind of grounded sense to him like much like the like the april of opera father character where he he's this like mayor that's not really well liked but he has a lot of power but at the end of the day he just he cares about his daughter like i like that that's his deal um i think john void is good in this movie i think he's having i think he's having the right kind of fun here too um for for all for all the john void stands for i i do think that he well i think that's what i'm intrigued by the way frances casa smoothie yeah with people who at the time were problematic yeah i'm child above and doesn't happen and so it's it presents it presents quite the conundrum i think that i feel like shaya used that in the performance it's very i feel like that's very despicable character i feel like that's very clear um and the child above has this weird his own self-awareness of who he is as a celebrity yeah where yes i think that's that feels very baked in for sure so yeah yeah it's it's in the the performances are matching the movie is what i will say um i don't feel like all of them were successful uh i but i think i think part of that is just what frances is asking them to do with the script is with the script what the script is having the characters do it then bleeds into the performance like i like i said out of driver it's fine but to me it's like part of the performance is suffering just from the like extraness of what he's asked to do and then yeah it just something like Aubrey i just i just came away just for every second she was on screen i was thrilled um you know and it is like it's by default the most fun character yeah and well and the thing about what i find interesting talk about people trading on their public personas is that i Aubrey is like an actress that i see what i can't get a read on her but i think that's a good thing like but but by that i mean like the way a lot of people love her and the things that she does and the proper person that she is i'm just like i can't fully get there and not because she's not talented and not because she can't be funny and not because she can't be good dramatically there there's something there like you know Ryan Reynolds way but not dreadful well you know if you want to talk about this i mean the difference here i think is that Ryan Reynolds isn't doing anything to really kill her outside the lines of what his personality is well he's not yeah he's not doing anything Aubrey Plaza you know i make don't ever mind about like who she is as a person would have you but in terms of like the performance she's given what i what i like about the roles she's taken especially in the recent years is she's parlayed a certain type of personality that she portrayed both you know like Ray carpets or what have you as well as in like parks and recreation yeah and turn that into a chance to explore other areas and color outside those lines whether it's i mean this recent movie my old ass where she has to do a number of different things or movie like black bear which i really like where she has to do a variety of different things like it's not just play sardonic teenage character or sardonic 20 something character or sardonic 30 something character now um because people age um i do think that there are or like white lotus i think is a great example that cuz that she's not the comedic she's not the comedic force of white lotus in that season she's and she plays very much a dramatic character that's going through real human problems uh those are all choices that she's making that i think show various sides of what talent she has what range he has not to just pick on ryan Reynolds but i don't think ryan Reynolds really he doesn't have the at least now he you know when you're making billion dollar movies at a time it's like why should i try you don't have to hold back your ryan Reynolds heat to me hi you know uh but yeah it's but so it's oh yeah so in a movie like this where yes she's just gets to be unleashed yeah a parrot satirical take on like newscaster slash mackeyvelli and villain like oh yeah that's a lot of there's a lot of room to play with that and have a good time with that but you still get enough of her in the kind of quieter moments where yes there's a real person there oh yeah yeah i yeah i just i just she thrilled me in this movie and this is coming from somebody who is agnostic to her maybe is the way i would describe it i um fair enough i like i i appreciate her obviously she's in agatha all along right and like yes literally blew the doors off of the first episode every every but just the the the lesbian sexual energy that was coming from that character from the second she's up on the screen i was like okay this is a great jolt of energy to cut so like she can't i i i do enjoy her and things like um it just lesion was another example of that where she could have ramped it up and it's and that was at that time that was a different part for her to take because she had the time she was just coming from parks and rec and like random uh supporting funny roles in other movies yeah and that was a chance for her to play like he's like a horror villain she's a best friend sidekick character she's like a bunch of different things in one because that shows fucked up yeah um but it's so um i i i did like seeing Lawrence Fishburn in here uh yeah partially because just think of that history he is 15 years old back in apocalypse now where you're lied about his age he's 15 years old back in apocalypse now and now here he is over 50 years later uh you know pop it up is just the the voice the the voice of the whole show plus like the adam driver's driver yeah um that's fun to say it's sort of right hand man in a way yeah like it's not like he's required to do much but just like it's just need to think like Lawrence Fishburn's like a Larry Fishburner apocalypse style here he is yeah in the future i don't think that was um it's not a lot to do for uh Talia Shire or uh Katherine Hunter uh who pops up in here although Katherine Hunter because of her kind of theatrical background she sees she knows how to play the very small bits that she has this would be yeah um who else is you not mentioned it Dustin Hoffman shows up for a bit Schwartzman shows up for like a bit they don't really do much yeah it's really um whoever played the the non virgin virgin oh it's a grace van der Waal if i believe it is yeah that was that was i enjoyed it can you tell that that the Colosseum the engine that's the scarecard is stuff was my favorite question of the movie i was i was locked and that's when that's when Francis really had me i said okay i i'm now fully immersed in the room of it i love the the excess of this i love the plotting i love you know all of this a foolery yeah like yeah as i'm like piecing together all these things and you know still you know letting it kind of marinate in my head there there's a lot of like sustained sequences i quite enjoyed as far as like what yeah what he's aiming for not only from like a script level but in terms of just like production and yes having Madison Square Garden be a literal Colosseum with chariot raises and what happened yeah that's great that's really cool the early sequel like pretty much one of the first sequences were like everybody's together where they're on these i believe he uh drivers uh caesar he's showing off like the model of what better on the catwalks and there are all these catwalks that are like hanging and it's like they're there's there's a cool factor there for me as far as this kind of where we're like hanging precipitously on top of this catwalk structure that's you know very fragile could break any second kind of thing and we're having these intense conversations between our main players there's stuff there that i mean that that's really where like the Shakespearean drama hits hard and yeah and like france of work hopola just showing you like how he can you know just use camera angles and settings to make a lot of statements about having to over overtly say it there's like stuff like that there's a lot of stuff throughout the film like that there's a whole sequence with um driver and uh and manual when they're hanging out like the rebars that are hanging out outside of his building that's just very striking from a visual standpoint i mean there's a lot there's a lot of stuff where i wouldn't necessarily call it showy it's just more he has an idea of how to put this to screen and he does it it's not throwing it in your face necessarily yeah and that's something like a something like chariot race it's like that's not being showy that's just being like this is the movie like i got to show you what the movie yeah it just it just was very yeah i i thoroughly enjoyed it a comparison point out because i was trying to think like what movie is like this because there's not many the closest i can think of offhand as far as kind of ambition matched with exuberance and we have cloud outlets cloud outlets is a good example but like story wise they have like nothing in common yeah the one i thought of is uh chisels babylon that's like regardless of where you think of about that movie and i'm i'm okay on it i think babylon but it is dreadful but it however but it but in but in terms of two directors that have very specific ideas of what they're doing and they're throwing everything at the screen at you and both can be very showy babylon much more so i believe in my heart of hearts that every director should get a hundred plus million dollars to make the craziest thing they could think of i want to live in the world where that happens like even though i think babylon is dreadful and i think damey and chisel was absolutely unhinged for the script and that large portions of that movie are very stupid and that he did know how to end the movie i am so thrilled that he got to make that for a major studio just the same way even though francis vocopa let you know how to sell off his winery for this i am glad that he got to make this thing just to see it and have something to react to it's what he clarified what he did as far as getting the money for this uh he has three wineries he only sold he merged one of them the one that because his his family's all you know they're all busy doing other things they can't manage his wineries so he's like i'll just i'll merge this one with somebody else and he did that he got the money did the loan stuff or whatever so like he still has two other wineries like he's yeah he's not he's not he's never he's never not gonna be poor right yeah i get it so but the amc tomorrow is going to play godfather one two three before we lose track of the babylon yes the other the other thing that i i find interesting in making this connection that only i've made uh his chisel is what just 30s maybe he's like our age yeah he's he might be a little older might be a little older maybe younger honestly he's somewhere between 35 and 40 okay francis vocopa double that yeah and then some um i i i'm curious how you how you think about this because chisels obviously he's making he's making he's making babylon what we said in the 20s but he has the sensibilities of somebody that's his age right yes and he can you know he can tie in the themes what have you with his own how he interprets what whatever it reflects a movie made by a person of his age yes francis vocopa is in a position where he has a younger cast mostly um and he's making the movie set in the future but he's still trying to tie it into what modern america looks like but he's still an 80 something year old man yeah making this movie through his eyes through his writing but i'm still trying to like formulate how i feel about this myself but do you think that do you think this movie feels like a film that's trying to tell a quote unquote hipper or modern story that he looks like something that's not made through his eyes i don't think it's i don't think he's trying to be hip i wouldn't i wouldn't say so either i think he's like this idea of mapping modern trappings onto an ancient set like a new realm right doing new realm i think he was like this is really freaking cool right like we look at america you know is the new realm new york city in particular in this story and it's like yeah we see that gigantic monuments to you know the um human spirit to the the progress of men are in that city it's the city that never sleeps it's got all the money right it's got the exit like and he like amps that he's like great that's what great place to map ancient roman and it's like that's what i found most fascinating is because it's like such an interesting like i know there's that whole trend about like these women on tiktok we're asking their boyfriends like how much do they think about the roman empire right like the roman empire being sort of the thing that we think about a lot and it's like Francis is like okay well like let me show you today's roman empire but i also think that it's a movie may i can feel his age in the movie and the reason why i say that is like it feels like a guy who's like nearing the end of his life and is trying to tell everybody we can be optimistic so are you saying that speaks well to the movie as far as feeling his age in the film um yes and no i think some of his more problematic inner stuff is in the movie in in a way that's not good for it but i do think like the ending like ending up where we do i do really think that that's like he how he feels about it now like that there is like a i'm going to take like you all think you're coming into watch a tragedy you know and through ninety nine percent of the movie you're thinking it's a tragedy like you're waiting for the tragedy to be followed he's like but like but no but like look at what you could be what it can be right in the way of like somebody who has lived a life would try and say that to you versus like i think the Babylon like if we're gonna compare it to that i think Damien got to the end of that i really don't think he knew what what the hell he was gonna do with that ending i agree because it goes on for like 30 minutes too long to just and us scrolling through all the movies but in that way he's like look at how powerful the movie art form can be and is going to be i don't think he earned whatever that it like i think that the stronger decision would just be to have that you know character see this film be sad about the fact that all of the twists and turns his life is taken and then gone back to his family and like just everything it just it just got really crazy yeah but so like in here i do feel like i can feel i do feel like you know frances for copalese a straight man and i feel that you know an older straight man and you sometimes old older straight men have certain things you know that they've liked about their life and those things are present in this movie that's fair to say i do so like i do i do feel in terms of how it wraps up certainly i get where you're at there i do i do think he's he does not have to be collaborative i will give him credit that way and there i mean there's not a lot of wiggle room for what's all that's happening here but i do think there's the ambition shows yeah i think i do but i do feel like like if you were to give another i guess i guess i can't i can't expect him to like entirely change who he is yeah and i don't think that he needed to but i just like it it is very present but i think in a way like it's it's i would be intrigued to see it again to see it now knowing that it ends happier than i was expecting because i was like i was like okay here we here i was like ooh this because it i think it would be juicy either way and i'm i'm intrigued i'm on the heels of speak no evil but just it being evil has me thinking a little bit more about like american cinema and like what we do and are given you know given as the audience and and do as the filmmakers um and in a way i mean Francis is obviously you know like a he you know reshaped what that looks like for us sure as people who were born you know after his 70s run right scorsese did like all all of those all the 70s filmmakers sort of really reshaped that but at the same time like american cinema also has like innate qualities that it's had throughout its time and so i'm like intrigued by these ideas of like Francis having this idea all those years ago and finally getting to make it now and how it sort of maps on to like the modern landscape but also hues very close to you know our deals and that's and that's why i do think it ended happy yeah no that you know american's love a happy ending sure but i i do i you're not you're not wrong uh but i but i do i do i do see what you're getting it and it's not like ranswell coppola shied away from having darker ending to the past either like it's not i mean yes godfather is every godfather the whole the saga is a tragedy that's that's the arc of the saga every one of those has a downbeatness to it they get they get progressively worse honestly when you really look at it um and so yeah that's i think it's like he he sort of redefined that for us you know we've redefined visual language he's helped redefined visual language of things him and his collaborators right um but so yeah i just so like i do think he's bringing that into this story but also like he's like i'm honestly i feel like he maybe there's a kind of joy in the ending for sure there's certainly could join the ending is but by that i mean like that he's like i got to make this and he can sort of feel that oh no i i heard you there too i think the if the plot which we have not talked about at all but if like the plant hinges on the idea because what are you gonna say exactly i but like if the plot if the plot hinges on caesar wants to build an eden on earth yes and there's people that are more self-inclined to think about themselves that are trying to basically stop him and do what they do you know hold on to quote-unquote conservative nature of things getting getting to like see a realization of caesar's dream that's great that is that that that can be great that can be presented in a way where i want to see what this looks like i do i wish the movie was better and get into that point and showing us that thing perhaps but do i feel as though by the time we get to the end france vorkopala clearly is ending this movie at a point where he feels comfortable with yes i could agree with that i think he absolutely feels as though whatever edit this is you know this is the one he settled on because i i feel like i've accomplished you know what what he thinks it needs to be said when all is said and done here will there be a megalophilus redux years from now will there be a final cut after that i don't know maybe he tends to do that but as it stands no i i don't think he i don't think he's putting this out in the world hoping that you know um you know a sizable portion of america shows up to ideally get him his money back yeah i don't think he's putting this out there thinking maybe um at least as far as how satisfied he was with the movie i think he's very satisfied with the movie he gave it five stars a letterbox he gave his own movie five stars on letter box yeah right he should stand by your stand by your heart he might as well him and david erlick i um i like the music in the movie yes i think the the context of like sesame-to-mill 50s epic scores along with some other like dancing's you know ideas yeah check aspects of this movie are really it's a good looking flick honestly i i mean i was upset the costumes i was uh immediately upset there's some there's some real choices being made up the costumes because in the way that way he introduces us to that is so smart where it's like we're like obviously we're in this this party sequence and you're like why are we spending so much time looking at strappy sandals and then i was like oh my god and i was like okay and then we got the flow agent okay and the and the first the first lot you print and i was like okay yes i i that like i was that's that's what i mean like there are moments in here where you're like you obviously you know you're like okay we're in the hands of somebody who knows what the hell they're doing well there is uh i mean that speaks to having like an internal drive that you understand something i constantly cite like the references really really smart it's smart it's the idea of a filmmaker being like even if the viewer can't like understand every single thing take it and it's not like the movie is yeah the laying it all out for you very simply i do feel like if you were to ask Francis for comfortable point blank what is this this this and this mean he has answered all those questions that's what the kind of movie this feels like whether or not he's edited it to perfection to make it seem that way or what have you i do think that the effort he's put into what all of this means why why this is here why this character means that would not i feel like he he knows the internal structure of this thing convey that you know on an outward level that's the challenge of being a director right that's the toy to come you know balancing your own understanding versus what an audience is going to feel about that that's that's you know and that's where that's why you get a a Spielberg who is the most extreme example knowing how that works like he can he can see shots he can see what the film looks like from the outset and know what an audience wants to see and like make that work not every director can do that that's why not every director is called one of the greatest directors anything else i'm there to laugh at least we're talking a lot about this movie i i i'm enjoying this conversation yeah i i think it's it's imagine me having to hold in these uh i get it all these thoughts for months before you saw it uh yeah i think i think we pretty much covered it well megalopolis opens in theaters and i'm ax this friday the 27th when should people go and see this movie i do kind of think you have to go see it you have to see it in order to believe it i i feel like you have to go see the dynamics well good because i agree i do think that i mean if you have the opportunity to see a new frances fork cople a passion project that he spent gobbles of money on yes gobs yes i i absolutely recommend it again i also really like this movie but i think even if you feel more in terence's zone of being mixed i don't think there's a downside to at least having experience mixed to bad but yes i i i i agree i just because it's what yeah i agree i agree well and i wouldn't say this about babylon i definitely didn't take anybody you i think i might have been on that episode of out about there the name i live here actually and yes i don't i there are very few times i can recall being madder walking out of the theater then babylon suburban con is probably the number one most mad i've ever been walking at babylon is in top five so this this wasn't this was like i just don't know how i'm going to explain this to people well as mention begolapo opens opens up very soon i'm i'm not exactly counting on this you know breaking records at the box office but i'm really i'll be very curious what the what the reaction is i think here's what that cinema score is going to be the time we get to begolapo but terence thank you very much for joining me for this thank you for having me we're gonna be able to have more of you online you can find me at linewalk tour.net and on twitter at terence b johnson great all right thanks again thanks so so