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In the late 1970s, one of the most improbable and audacious undercover investigations in American history took place. Ron Stallworth's story, Black Klansman, is a gripping and almost surreal tale of infiltration and deception. Ron Stallworth, the first black detective in Colorado Springs, Colorado, undertook a dangerous and audacious mission—to pose as a white supremacist to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan. Through phone calls and written correspondence, he gained the trust of local Klan members and even the Grand Wizard, David Duke. His story, later recounted in his 2014 memoir Black Klansman: A Memoir, inspired both the 2018 Spike Lee film BlacKkKlansman and renewed interest in the fight against racial extremism in America. Sit down. Buckle up. And hang with us through this wild case of Ron Stallworth, the first Black Klansman. Thanks for listening! If you want to support us, you can follow/subscribe to WILDCIDE on your favorite podcast listening app. While you’re there, please rate and leave us a review – we would really appreciate it! You can also visit our website at www.wildcidepodcast.com (merch now available!) Make sure to get updates by following us on Instagram (@wildcidepodcast) and Facebook (Wildcide Podcast). Don’t forget Wildcide Wednesdays- new episodes drop every Wednesday at 6am EST. Interviews will drop every other Friday at 6am EST. Art for the podcast was created by Kelly Steen. Editing/Production for the podcast by Bltzwolff (bltzwolff@gmail.com). WILDCIDE Podcast and any content posted is presented solely for general informational, educational, and entertainment purposes. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions. Ron Stallworth's book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37901607-black-klansman References: Goldfarb, K. (2020, June 24). The unbelievable story of the black cop who went undercover in the KKK. All That’s Interesting. https://allthatsinteresting.com/ron-stallworth Mayotte, G. (2018, August 9). Meet Ron Stallworth, the Colorado detective who is the subject of Blackkklansman. 5280. https://www.5280.com/meet-ron-stallworth-the-colorado-detective-who-is-the-subject-of-blackkklansman/ Morgan, T. (2018, August 9). The real story of how a black cop infiltrated the KKK. History.com. https://www.history.com/news/black-cop-infiltrate-kkk-real-story Roos, D. (2018, August 20). The incredible true story of the real “black klansman.” HowStuffWorks. https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/incredible-true-story-real-black-klansman.htm Stallworth, R. (2020). Black Klansman: A memoir. W.F. Howes Ltd.
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- Broadcast on:
- 02 Oct 2024
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- other
(upbeat music) What's up, wild side besties and baddies, I'm Bailey, and I'm Chelsea, and we're here to walk you through the wild sides, from homicides to homicides and everything in between. We're so glad you're here, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. What's up, you guys? There. So we're gonna keep this short and sweet, but Chelsea and I are gonna start things off a little bit differently today. Chelsea, true or false? We communicate pretty much through sarcasm. Correct, true. True or false? I'm a therapist. You were a dental hygienist now in your master's program, now full-time mom, now a jack of all trades. True. True or false? People usually don't understand our sense of humor. Eh. True. Meh, true. True or false? The KKK once hosted a recreational summer camp program called the Cool Coast Camp in Rockport, Texas. Mm, I sure hope that's a true statement. I sure hope that's true. True or false, that statement. People won't understand you're being sarcastic. True. That's true. True or false? Forest Gump, the protagonist of the Forest Gump movie, was named after the first KKK Grand Wizard, Nathan Bedford Forest. Mm, true? Okay. True or false? You're wondering why I'm asking you KKK questions. False. Okay. I know why you're asking me KKK questions because you know that I absolutely love learning about the KKK and all things radical history. And you are going to present me a case that has something to do with the KKK and I'm super excited. Do you want to maybe, going back to our first true or false question, as far as, are one of our true or false questions where people don't usually understand us? Do you want to elaborate more why you said I love learning about the KKK so people don't take that out of context? I love learning about all things that I consider to be quote unquote dangerous, harmful or just in bad taste history because I believe that the more we know about dangerous, harmful or just in bad taste history or historic people or historic organizations, the more likely we are to not repeat that history in the future. So, very good. And everybody can hashtag suck it. (laughing) #kickrocks. So today, I am very excited to share this case with you. Once again, it's a, there's no deaths in this case, specifically. And this is the case of the black Klansmen. The black Klansmen, okay? Have you heard of this? I mean, I've heard of black Irish, but I don't think that has anything to do with a black Klansmen. Nope. This is the story of Ron Stalworth and he was the world's first black Klansmen as in an African American. Klansmen? Yes, yes. Okay. Are you ready? Are you interested? Absolutely. Absolutely. And so for those of y'all who are like, what the heck is going on? You will understand it midway through this case. So a background of Ron Stalworth, who is our main guy, and then we are just going to snowball into this KKK stuff from there. So Ron Stalworth was born on June 18th, 1953 in Blustery, Chicago, Illinois. 1953? Yes. Wow, that's surprising. I would be thinking like he was born in 1903. No, this case takes place in 1979. Holy cow. Okay. So he was born in 1953 in Blustery, Chicago, Illinois. And he grew up in the thick of a racially charged 1950s and 60s. It was there where he witnessed firsthand the deep divides that ran through America. Yes. In his young mind, the fight for justice was just not an abstract struggle. It was a reality lived out on the streets, on TV screens and in his community. Stalworth by a young age was acutely aware of the battles being fought all around him. When his family moved to El Paso, Texas during his teenage years, it was another step in shaping him into the man he would become. High school in Texas with its own racial tensions only deepened Ron's resolve. The echoes of the civil rights movement were loud and clear and Ron knew he wanted to do something about it. Justice was not just a dream for him, it was a mission. I like it. I like Ron. Fast forward to the summer of 1972, 19-year-old Ron Stalworth relocated from El Paso, Texas to Colorado Springs, Colorado, which is where our story takes place. Wow. This guy is like all over the places that I'm familiar with, right? With a growing interest in a career in law enforcement, he joined a cadet program that was aimed at increasing minority representation in the police department. Ben, during his interview into the program, the panel, the interview panel, warmed him that he would be facing challenges and hostility and essentially told him that he would be the department's quote Jackie Robinson. Okay, yum. But they selected him and he became the first black police officer in Colorado Springs police department. Wow. At just 19 years old. That's so cool. Two years later, Ron became a patrolman at 21. But he wasn't keen on the uniforms. He knew early on that he wanted to work undercover. Recalling his first impression of narcotics officers, Ron was, he was quoted as saying, "When I saw these guys with long beards and hair, "looking like San Francisco hippies, "but carrying guns and badges, "I thought it was the coolest thing to look like that "and still be a cop." Same, Ron. Same. Same. He frequently joked with the narcotics agents, with a narcotics sergeant saying, "Hey, art, make me an art." (laughing) Just a few years later, in 1975, he became the first black detective in the history of the department. And he was also the youngest detective in the history of Colorado Springs department at just 22 years old. (mumbles) So just a few years after he joined, he became a detective. That's so cool. I love people that are just on a mission, man. I love that so much. This dude is the goat. He's the goat. And by the end of this, you're gonna be like, "He's the coolest person I've ever heard of." Oh, I love it. I really do love people that just don't have off switches. I so, I kind of envy that a little bit. So him becoming a homicide detective was not just a promotion. It was, in all reality, a groundbreaking moment. I was gonna say it was history in the making. Yes. Working in intelligence and narcotics, Ron began to develop a skill, a skill set that would prove vital in his career. He learned how to gather information, build trust, and operate under the radar. All very important tools that would eventually make him one of the best in the business. No, no, no. But as a black police officer, the journey wasn't exactly smooth. There was lots of racial discrimination and suspicion from some of his white colleagues, which were constant undercurrents that he had to face, unfortunately. Right. But regardless of this, did not deter him. His determination to make a difference, to push back against the very injustices that he'd grown up seeing, he remained absolutely steadfast and unshaken. And it was this combination of resilience, talent, motivation, and skill that would lead him into one of the most extraordinary undercover operations in American history. One that would put him against the very forces of hate, he had always sought to dismantle. Rawn, Rawn, got his first taste of undercover. When Stokely Carmichael, a prominent Black Panther activist, had come to town to give a speech in Colorado Springs. His name's Stokely, Stokely Carmichael. That's such a cool name. Have you ever heard the name Stokely? No, but it makes me think of that song. What song? Stroke 'em? I don't know why it makes me think of that song. Stroke 'em, stroke 'em to the left, stroke 'em to the right. See, you don't know what I'm talking about? Are we stroking? Yeah, I mean stroking. Yeah, so Stokely Carmichael, he was a prominent Black Panther activist, had come to town to give a speech in Colorado Springs. And this was his first undercover task because Rawn was Black. And so that meant that he got to go undercover as what, somebody who attends this rally, as a rally goer, a supporter of the cause. Yes, and he had to go there, wear a wire, and report back to the police department, kind of his feeling of like the rhetoric and the type of speech and what was going on at that rally. Or that, I don't know if you want to call it a rally, I don't know the correct word, but an event, right? Yeah. So by 1978, Rawn was placed in the department's intelligence division where his responsibilities included investigating organized crime and gathering criminal intelligence, like he did going undercover at the Stokely Carmichael speech. So whenever he was in this position, when he wasn't actively working undercover, you know, like going out on the streets and doing what I guess we would call orders or missions, a central part of the job involved scanning newspapers for any information that could lead to any potential cases that was worth investigating. And one day, Rawn is kicked back in his chair, in his office, reading the newspaper, and he came across a classified ad in the local newspaper promoting the Ku Klux Klan, okay? The ad invited readers to join the white supremacist organization by providing a phone number for interested individuals, okay? Curiosity peaked and recognizing potentially an opportunity to delve into the shadowy world of the Klan, Rawn Stallworth ended up responding to the ad by sending a letter. And in the letter, he was posing as a white man who was interested in joining the KKK, okay? The crazy part here, and perhaps the crux of the wild tornado that follows, is because he didn't think he would get any response out of habit, perhaps he ended up using his real name, when he wrote the letter. Oh, that could be problematic, it could be problematic. And he was like, I just thought I was gonna get like a brochure or a pamphlet. And so in this letter, he posed as a racist, bigoted white man determined to keep America out of the chokeholds of anybody deemed less than by the KKK. In his letter, he wrote, quote, "I hate anyone who isn't pure Aryan white like I am. And wouldn't you know, a week or two later, he gets a whole ass phone call from a man by the name of Ken Odell, who was the chapter leader of the Colorado Springs chapter of the KKK." Hmm, when I worked in Florence, Colorado, I remember one of my patients telling me that the lockers that are at the Florence High School, they're in Florence, Colorado, all of the lockers that are installed in the school have a plaque that says donated by, you know, whatever chapter of the KKK. And I remember them just talking about, it was a younger patient and just kind of talking about how weird that was for them to be like, that's wild, you know what I mean? Like, to have something that was donated, you know, for the greater good, if you will, you know, like donating to a public school, but it was donated from the KKK. And I just remember thinking like, huh, I didn't know that the KKK was also into philanthropy, but there we go. Yeah, there's a lot in that box thumb pack, right? Right. So again, to Ron's stalwart surprise, Ken Odell calls him up. And it was totally out of the blue. And so Ron, he had to craft a story to enhance his credibility on this phone call with the chapter leader. Ron invented a fictional sister who was dating a black man. And what he said in this phone call was, every time he put his filthy black hands on her pure white body, it made me cringe. And I wanted to do something to stop those things from happening. And those words were all it took for Ken Odell to believe Ron stalwart to be exactly what the KKK was looking for and invited him to an in-person meeting. Like I'm getting, I'm getting the movie White Chicks. It's giving White Chicks vibes. Yes, but it's different and we'll get there. Now, just as a short little splurb here, I added in a little bit of the KKK and a historical context to understand kind of what Ron was up against. And it's stuff, obviously, I never knew 'cause I didn't know that much about it. But apparently the KKK's history goes back to right after the Civil War when it was founded in 1865. And they had one singular purpose, which was to uphold white supremacy at all costs. Over the decades, the Klan has become infamous for their brutality, lynching, bombings, violent assaults, lots of things like that. And from my understanding, the Klan's influence wax and waned over time. But by the 1970s was another kind of up wave because it was the resurgence of it was because of the civil rights movement in the United States. Yeah, because of the civil rights movement. Yeah, you know, the first really big like when it really exploded onto the scene, that was right after World War I. So it was right at the end of the 1910s. Right, yeah, but it peaked again in the 1940s after World War II. Yeah, so pretty much anytime we have wars or any sort of like unrest, whether that be internationally or civilly civil domestically, we see a resurgence in it, which is really interesting. There was a sociologist that I was listening to one time and they talked about this, or it actually was a historian as well, a sociologist, historian. And they were talking about most people respond to tragedies like wars, whether they be international or domestic and two responses. They usually either fear, right? They buckle down and they become very fearful and very paranoid, very conservative, if you will, like wanting to conserve all their resources or you will see this surge of like we did in the 1920s in the quote unquote roaring 20s where they just let loose, right? Like everything's bad, we're probably gonna die, the economy's gonna crash, whatever it is. And so you get more promiscuous or erratic or just very ostentatious type of behavior, right? Which is again what we were seeing like with the hippie movement, right? In response to Vietnam, like it's really quite interesting, but all that to say, yes, pretty much any time you have major wars or major uprisings or civil rights movements or whatever it is, right? You're going to see a resurgence of groups like the KKK. Any amount of extremist groups. And that polarizing effect, right? Correct. And thank you for that, that was very well said. I didn't know, I don't think I knew that specifically, but when this kind of civil rights movement upswing, it started to reshape the clan, if you will, and it started to have to reinvent itself. Correct. So no longer were they trying to portray themselves as hooded figures of hate, they sought to present themselves, which is arguably even more scary, as legitimate political forces. So they were trying to clean up their image, but still had the toxic poisonous ideology of supremacy. Sure. It's kind of like putting lipstick on a pig, essentially. Correct, right. And so now we're talking about its 1979 in Colorado Springs, and the KKK is kind of rearing its ugly head again, and this time they're really trying to make it more presentable, if you will, right? They want people to take them more seriously, and that they're not just like hooded guys, you know, burning crosses, but they're, they're trying to overtake their diplomats now. You're right, they're diplomats, yes. You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir. Yes. Mm-hmm. So I say all of that to say is this is exactly when Ron Stalworth stepped into the fray when it comes to what was going on regarding the KKK. Mm-hmm. And after that phone call with Ken Odell, in order to communicate with the Klan, Ron had to assume the identity of a white man. When Odell first asked Ron how to identify him at a meeting, again, kind of off the cuff, Ron described a white undercover narcotics officer, a friend of his from the department that had a similar build, someone he referred to as Chuck. Okay. And kind of fun fact, no one knows who Chuck is. So that's never been, he's never been identified. He was real, but we don't know who the real life officer was. Okay. Chuck was the alias. Chuck was the alias. Mm-hmm. So this undercover narcotics officer, Chuck, he resembled this persona that Ron had created and communicated to Ken over the phone. And he would end up becoming Ron Stalworth's character during face-to-face interactions. Mm-hmm. So while Ron continued to handle all phone communications with the Klan members, the fake white Ron Stalworth would be his buddy Chuck, who would go out to meetings to collect intelligence while wearing a wire, and then would come back and fill in all of the details. And so these two individuals were two halves to a hole in this undercover operation. Yeah, man, it takes a village. Can we just say how terrifying this must be on all fronts of being found out? Oh. And then, you know, homeboys wearing a wire to KKK meetings, like if they discovered him, and then if they discovered that the real Ron Stalworth was a black man, I mean, that's, it's ballsy. There's no other-- Yes, but again, luckily it was in the timeframe that it was, because if this had been trying to happen in the 30s, do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think they were doing like public lynchings anymore in the late '70s. Like that was, you know what I mean? Like, there were laws around-- I mean, they still were, but not as openly, I think as they did probably in the '30s. Mm-hmm, well, that's interesting. I didn't realize that that was still, and I knew that there were like active burnings and things like that, but as far as actual lynchings-- I mean, there are, I think there are still technically active lynchings up until just a few years ago. Really? Yeah, but I mean, I don't think that those, I don't know enough, I know just enough to be dangerous. I don't think that most of those were KKK-affiliated, I think it was just hate crimes, hate crimes. Yeah, yes, so I think it still happens. But yeah, I don't think it was as publicly acceptable back then, right, or now than it was back then. Yeah, okay. And so, essentially you had the real Ron Stallworth doing the phone calls, and his buddy Chuck was actually going to the meetings to collect intelligence. Hello. And what's crazy is that even though Chuck and Ron had totally dissimilar voices, somehow they managed to fool everybody they talked to. Yeah? And Ron Stallworth's persona as a white man proved convincing enough to allow him to maintain his cover while gaining deeper access to the KKK's operation. Isn't this crazy? Yeah, I'm just trying to think like, I feel like I have these thoughts a lot in a lot of our cases where I'm like, would I be able to do that? Like, would I be able to keep a persona going that deep under cover? You know what I mean? I think that people are always like, oh yeah, yeah, you know, I'd be able to do that or absolutely not, like depending on, you know, kind of your personality. But I always, my first thought is like, I would be able to do that. But then I think of like talking to our lovely Angie, our correction corrections officer. And I'm like, actually, I don't think I am near as cool or talented or tough as I sometimes like to think I could be. I think it's, I think it takes a lot of training, a lot of lots of things. Like, one thing I just learned the other day from a sweet German person that I was talking to. And we had this conversation and they can always pick out Americans because we lean on everything when we stand. We lean on walls, we lean against walls, we lean on counters, we lean on things and Europeans like don't. - Oh. - Is that considered, like, is that considered kind of rude to lean on things? - I don't think so. I think it was just a quirk that we do. - Oh, right. That's interesting. Oh, we got our first speeding ticket sent to our house from Germany and it's completely in German. - Oh yeah. - And so right now we're sitting at 30, 30? - I think 30 euros. 30 euros is pretty standard, yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. And I just want to say a small correction. I think this was actually 1978 and not 1979, but it's right around that time frame. But as of 1978, Ron Stallworth had officially joined the Ku Klux Klan becoming the 807, 872 registered Klansmen in the state. - I want it. - This acceptance into the invisible empire, as they call themselves, gave Ron unprecedented access to their inner workings of the Klan, which allowed him to gather critical intelligence about their recruitment tactics, membership and their planned activities. His investigation revealed not only local Klan activities but also connections between the KKK and other extremist organizations. Ron's team gathered vital intelligence on the Klan's recruitment efforts, including attempts to recruit military and law enforcement personnel. Wasn't that scary? I have so many thoughts. I have so many thoughts, but I am going to listen to your case, but I have so many thoughts. But yes. - One of the more notable or the most notable figures that Ron interacted with during his investigation was none other than David Duke, who was the National Grand Wizard of the Klan. - Okay. - And I didn't know what this language meant. And so apparently the National Grand Wizard is a title used by the KKK to denote the highest ranking leader of the organizational organization at a national level. - Okay. - So he is the top honcho, right? At the very top. And they oversee activities of the operations. They coordinate strategies and they maintain the ideological direction of the Klan. You know, I think what is always bizarre to me to listen to extremists, if you will, extremist organizations and the members of extremist organizations is that they like, they go to movies and they go to the grocery store and they probably pay their taxes and they probably enjoy five guys, you know? - And they run for office. And they run for office and they, because Grand Wizard David Duke, 12 years after this in 1991, ran for governor of Louisiana and almost won. He garnered 39% of the vote for the state. That's kind of what I mean. Like they put their pants on one leg at a time. They probably go and have lunch with their kids at the public school down the road. Yet they are organizing and fundraising and recruiting for organizations like the Ku Klux Klan. And that kind of blows my mind a little bit. That's hard for me to understand. It's pretty terrifying actually, you know? I mean, not just with the KKK, but any violent, hateful extremist organizations, right? Like how camouflaged they are, right? - Yep. - So their paths crossed. Ron's paths crossed with David Duke when Ron had called headquarters to check on his membership application. David Duke picked up and an initial conversation ensued. One that really should have only lasted like 10 or 15 minutes. Ended up becoming a weekly phone call between the two. So now you have an undercover black detective speaking on a regular basis with the National Grand Wizard of the KKK and Duke unknowingly formed a bond with Ron Stallworth. - This is wild. - Just as a great place to plug this in, Ron Stallworth wrote a book called "Black Clansmen, A Memoir." And he obviously includes this whole operation in it and in his book in referencing David Duke, he said, quote, "He was a master manipulator, "capable of spinning his hatred in ways that attracted "those who would ordinarily reject bigotry outright." Well, that is quite an interesting observation, right? In one memorable moment, Ron went on one of their phone calls, Ron asked David Duke how he could identify, say black people posing as white people as Klan members. And David said, "It's how essentially "they pronounce certain words." And Ron was like, "Do you have an example?" And David said, "Yes, black people pronounce words "with a raw at the end, like ARRA instead of R." Amused, Ron was like, "So from then on, "whenever he would call him, he would say, "Hello, Mr. Duke, how ARRA you doing? "How are you doing?" And so Ron would end up doing this intentionally poking fun at David Duke's arrogance and his arrogant belief that he was too clever to be deceived all while being completely fooled the entire time. Now, during this whole undercover operation, there is only one time where suspicion arose. After Chuck had been to a meeting, Ron called the local organizer and the organizer said, "Huh, your voice sounds different." And Ron just said, "Sorry, it's a really bad sinus infection." And this KKK member was like, "Oh, I get those all the time. "Here's what you need to do, dot, dot, dot." And that was the only time that suspicion was ever raised. When Ron was speaking about the duality of being a black officer and infiltrating the Klan, he said, "Here I was, a black man in America, "infiltrating the Klan, it was surreal, "but it was also necessary." - Yeah, absolutely. - In a twist of fate, Ron Stallworth ended up being assigned as David Duke's bodyguard when David ended up visiting Colorado in January of 1979 when he was there to try to recruit new members. Ron had initially raised this concern to his police chief saying that it could jeopardize his undercover work, but Ron was the only officer from the intelligence division that was available for the task. And so he was assigned, and when he arrived to meet David Duke in person, Ron made it clear to him that while he did not share Duke's beliefs, he would fulfill his duty to protect him. And surprisingly, David Duke was quite cordial and he even shook Ron's hand, which was surprising to everybody. But when he did so, David used the secret Klan handshake, which involved placing the index and middle fingers against the other person's wrists while shaking hands, which is a gesture that most of the outsiders wouldn't recognize, but Ron knew immediately. So it was kind of like what, an insult, like he's shaking his hand, but he's giving him this, what he thinks is an unknown hand gesture to say, essentially like, "I'm KKK." Does that make sense? - No. - And what's wild is that David Duke never recognized Ron's voice, even though he spoke with them every week on the phone. So during the security detail, before the pair parted ways, they had a photo taken together. And at the last second, Ron threw his arm around David Duke, causing David to momentarily become flushed with anger and freak out. He went to snatch the camera away, but Ron told David Duke if he touched him, he would be arrested for assaulting a police officer. - Well played, sir. - Well played. Reflecting on the racists like David Duke that many people, not just black people, but many different people that were deemed less than had to tolerate throughout generations, when this happened, Ron said that he could only think on this particular occasion, he had the power, he was an authority, and the Klan was at his mercy. - Absolutely. - Now as a side little note on this, we don't know where the picture is. So they said it's either been destroyed or lost along the way, and there's probably a thousand reasons or things that could have happened with that picture. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Throughout the investigation, Ron and his team thwarted several political acts of violence. By closely monitoring the Klan's activities, they were able to prevent targeted attacks on local black citizens and civil rights activists. Ron also uncovered the Klan's attempts to rebrand itself as a legitimate political and social organization, again, which they were trying to distance themselves from their violent past, quote unquote. One of the most significant accomplishments of the investigation was the prevention of potential acts of violence. On several occasions, they learned of plans to target black residents of Colorado Springs, as well as civil rights activities. With this intelligence, the police were able to intervene and thwart these attacks before they could be carried out. One of the most concerning revelations from the investigation was the Klan's desire to recruit, as I said before, law enforcement officers and military personnel. Was the Klan, were the Klan members, was that chapter of the Klan? Were they, did they start becoming suspicious once? They noticed that a lot of their, kind of almost like wire the cops one step ahead of us? Did that ever, I don't think so, 'cause the only thing that he really referred to as far as raising suspicions, again, was that questioning about his voice being different. But one of the things that he also identified was two of the Klan's members of the local chapter were in the army and had access to nuclear weapons, really. So they were not kicked out or fired, but they were reassigned. Once it was brought to their attention that they were Klan's members is that? - Yes. - Mm-hmm. Man, have you noticed how many times we see this theme of shuffling within? - Oh yeah. - You know what I mean? Like, it's amazing. - We covered that in the clergy abuse interview a lot too. - That's what I mean, that I'm like, it's amazing how many organizations do this shuffling act. - Oh yeah, yeah. While the intelligence gathered was invaluable, the operation was eventually deemed too dangerous to continue, particularly as the risk of their identity being exposed, Chuck or Ron, right? - Gotcha. - In early 1979, after an intense seven month undercover investigation, the investigation did come to an end and did close when the Colorado Springs chapter's leader, Ken Odell, actually nominated Ron, so Chuck, to become the chapter leader for being a quote, loyal and dedicated Klansman. - Oh my goodness. - So Ron was ready to accept, but the Colorado Springs Police Department chief panicked. He was just like, that's too risky to get that deep into the organization with the dynamics that we have. - Yeah. - So that's when they ceased the undercover investigation. The chief asked for the investigation to be shut down before it could go any further, and instructed Ron to stop answering calls and to change the undercover phone line number and destroy all reports. But Ron did not destroy all the reports. Instead, he took all the notebooks, drove them home with him and had kept them ever since. And one souvenir that he kept was his KKK membership card that was signed by David Duke. - Wow. - And if you guys check out our Instagram, there's a picture of him, a picture of the card and a picture of him holding the card. - Wow. - So the investigation had successfully disrupted the Klans' activities in Colorado Springs and provided law enforcement with a clear understanding of how white supremacist groups operated within the region. - Yeah. - Despite the success of the operation, Ron Stallworth's role remained a total secret for decades. His remarkable story was known only to a select few within the police department until he decided to go public in 2006, nearly three decades after the operation concluded. Ron Stallworth's brave and brilliant work not only prevented violent acts but also provided insight into the Klans' broader goals and activities. The intelligence gathered during his investigation was shared with other law enforcement agencies that helped them monitor and prevent white supremacist activities in their regions as well. - Wow. - Ron Stallworth continued to work as an investigator for 20 years. He left the Colorado Springs Police Department in 1980 and went on to have a 32 year career in law enforcement throughout Wyoming, Utah, and Arizona. He retired in 2005 but remained active as the chairman of the Black Advisory Council as well as the Parks Department. In 2014, he published his memoir, Black Klansman, a memoir which detailed his extraordinary experience infiltrating the KKK. As far as the KKK, Ron notes that it is still alive in America and it still goes through waves of power. He says, quote, "We should always be vigilant of that fact and be mindful of it and ready to combat it in whatever form it exists in." - Mm-hmm. - His memoir also was turned into a movie in 2018 and I ended up watching that, it was a great movie but it was a film adaptation called Black Klansman and it was directed by Spike Lee. - Mm-hmm. - In the years following the publications of his memoir, Ron Stallworth has become an advocate for racial justice and law enforcement reform. He has spoken extensively about his experience and the lessons learned from his undercover work emphasizing the need for vigilance in combating hate groups and the importance of diversity in law enforcement. - Yeah. - Ron Stallworth's infiltration of the Ku Klux Klan stands as one of the most remarkable undercover operations in American history. His bravery and ingenuity not only exposed the hypocrisy and the weaknesses of the Klan but also highlighted the ongoing threat posed by white supremacist organizations. His legacy both as a pioneering black detective and as an author continues to inspire and inform efforts to combat hate and promote justice in America today. - No. - And that is the wildly true but almost unbelievable story of Ron Stallworth, the black Klansman. - That is so, that's just so, like that whole situation is just so awesome and so unbelievable, awesome meaning, like what are the odds that he sees an ad in the newspaper? What are the odds that, you know, they call him back? What are the odds that he's able to, you know, on the fly come up with this story that's believable. I mean, all of these things that worked its way together, weaved its way together. It's just unbelievable, unbelievable. But then also why we don't have more exposure to his work. I literally, again, I found this case through a book, I saw his book and it was, that's how I discovered the moon rocks case. And I saw the title and it said, "Black Klansmen." And of course, you're just like, what is this? - Yeah. - And it was like, the first black man to infiltrate the KKK. And I was just like, and I literally was sitting at my desk at work, like laughing to myself, being like, whatever. Like, whatever. And I read kind of the overview of it. And I was like, this surely is a fiction book. And so it said nonfiction and I'm like, no, that's incorrect. And so I googled it. And of course, all this stuff came up with pictures of them. And I was just like, holy shit, like this is a real, this is real, like this really happened. - Yeah. - I wonder, and this is more of a rhetorical question. If you know the answer to it, that's awesome. But obviously, I don't expect you to know. But I wonder if David Duke, that was his name, the Grand Wizard, I wonder if David Duke is still alive? Or was, or I was gonna say, or was still alive when the story in the Spike Lee film came out. And it would be interesting to know what the response was. Like, I wonder if he has read it. I wonder if he, you know what I mean, like, I'm so glad you asked that, Chelsea. On my PS, my postscript, I wrote, indeed, David Duke did not find out that Ron Stallworth was a black undercover police officer until 2006. And what had happened was a reporter by the name of Leonard Pitt's contacted Duke to fact check Stallworth's story. (laughs) That's how he found out. - Oh, my gosh. So, David Duke apparently recently, and I say recently, I don't remember when this article was written, but had tweeted that he was not a fan of Spike Lee's films, which he wouldn't be because a lot of Spike Lee's films are about like social injustices and stuff like that. - Right, right. - And David Duke tweeted, quote, "It was a big fat lie." A big lie, cops infiltrated a clan chapter, but if the film is true by depicting them as violent, then why no arrests, why no trials, why no grand juries? So he's just like, no, no, no, no, it didn't happen because if it did, then we would have, you know, we would have been arrested and had trials and convictions and all of these things. You know what I mean? - Yeah. He still, for my understanding is pretty much in denial that he was hoodwinked by a black gentleman because I also have the feeling that David Duke has a pretty fragile ego. - Yeah. - So in, for those of y'all who don't know, I'm a therapist and one of the populations that I really love working with and y'all are gonna think I'm nuts, but I love working with narcissists, like diagnosed narcissists. And there's kind of like two types. You have malignant narcissists, which are the kind of stereotypical, yup, I know what I'm talking about, you're wrong, you know, I'm right, you're wrong. Like Danny DeVito off of Matilda, right? And they're the ones that I can be like, what you're saying is bullshit, that doesn't make any sense. And they'll be like, yeah, you're probably right. Like nothing gets under their skin. But then you have what's called fragile narcissists and those are very difficult to work with because their ego is like, it's like a glass sculpture and you have to handle them with kid gloves because if I'm like, that doesn't make any sense, they're the ones who like puff up and they're the ones who are just like, you don't know what you're talking about, you dumb bitch. You know what I mean? - That's like quickly. - They escalate quickly and they get real butt hurt about things. - I have a feeling that David Duke is a fragile narcissist. - Yeah. - I can't say that. I can't say that. That behavior is indicative. - There are some... - Yes. - There's a beginner. - There's some characteristics. There's some characteristics that lead you to believe that there could be a potential for narcissistic underpinnings. - There's underlying maladaptive interpersonal characteristics. - I think what makes me the most sad is that he's still just living on that hill. Like he's just gonna die on that hill. Obviously, not literally. I don't literally mean that he's going to die on a hill. I mean that after all these years, he's still holding tight to such delusional, hurtful, hateful, and just wrong, just wrong thinking. Like I was really hoping that you would be like, you know, actually he's still alive and he's come forward and he said that he has turned away from his earlier involvement and he's grown and he's come to recognize the... You know what I mean? That's what I was hoping. I would get out of that, but I can. - But on a different note, an equally important note that reminds me that Chelsea and I reached out to a brilliant gentleman by the name of Daryl Davis, who has, he is a black man who has de-robed like over 200 Klansmen in his career and he has agreed to do an interview with us. And I'm really excited about that. And so hopefully in the next couple few months, we'll end up covering another KKK case and then the corresponding interview will be speaking with this wonderful man and him sharing about his experiences of essentially convincing people to leave the KKK, which I think is just incredible, right? I, that absolutely, absolutely is. - All right, well, if this made you uncomfortable, then it probably should have, but that doesn't mean that it's bad, uncomfortable, just means that you're growing and we're growing together. - Thank you. Thank you, Bailey Rogers' neighborhood. (laughing) And on that note, thank you guys for hanging out with us through a truly Wild and Crazy Ride this episode. That's right. And as always, we'll catch you on the Wild Side. Bye, guys. - Later, gators. (upbeat music) - Hey, Wild Side Tribe, don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook @wildsidepodcast. Make sure to tune in on Wild Side Wednesdays. New episodes will drop each Wednesday at 6 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. We would love to hear from you. So if you have a wild case recommendation, email us at wildsidepodcast@gmail.com. That's Wild Side with a seat. Or share your thoughts in the comments below. As always, if you haven't heard it today, you're loved, you're worthy, and you're valuable. And we'll catch you on the flip side. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)