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That's shopify.com/income. - ABC Thursdays. - Welcome back. - Grey's Anatomy is all new. - Why didn't you tell me you were pregnant? - The drama going down. - Bunchy jumper from the bridge is cord snapped. - You need all hands on deck. - Is unbelievable. - You think your gods give to this hospital? - You're just another doctor. - My relationship with Catherine is complicated. - I'm gonna sue you. - Your lawyers know where to find me. - You're unbelievable. Grey's Anatomy, only Thursdays 10/9c on ABC and stream on Hulu. - Slow Burn Media, Evergreen Podcasts and Killer Podcasts presents Who Killed, a podcast that provides a voice for the voiceless. - 24 hours ago, I found out the person I've been dating for the last six months as a con man. - That is my sister Emma. Andrew Tonks' lies had been so convincing. She had invested $300,000 with him. However, the tables were about to turn on Andrew. What he didn't know was that Emma had discovered his real identity, but to get any chance of justice, Emma had to act like it was business, as usual. Coming up in this series. - And that's when Muda, all this stuff goes through my mind. I'm really, really scared. I'm assuming Sarah has watched too much Netflix and figures I've been defrauding you. Couldn't be further from the truth. - That's what this was, a real life story that seems so unbelievable, but it was actually true. - A true story that all starts with one simple, swipe to the right. I'm Sarah Ferris. - And I'm Emma Ferris, and this is my story, Conning the Con. - Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Who Killed. I am your host, Bill Huffman. And this is a slow burn media Evergreen podcast and killer podcast production. This week we are joined by the one and only Sarah Ferris. And that is Sarah Ferris of Sarah Ferris Media. She's an award winning podcast producer. She has multiple podcasts on the Evergreen network, as well as across the podcasting spectrum. And all I can say is thank you so much for joining us this week. Welcome to the show. - Thank you so much for having me, Bill. You've been, yeah, I mean, I feel like you've probably sickened the sound of my name recently because I know you've been talking to some of my co-hosts as well. - I did have the pleasure of having Peter and Scott to talk about watching two detectives. And that was actually very fun just to hear their stories and the fact that they worked six years together in policing and from a journalist listening to former police and detectives talk about the actual job. It's a privilege because we don't necessarily all get the opportunity. And a lot of times those guys don't want to talk about that stuff, but they were very insightful. And I think that that shows is great. So kudos. - Thank you. Thank you very much. - Yeah, absolutely. And so you've been in the business for four plus years and you started with a series called Conning the Con. And this has a personal connection to you. And this week I wanted you to talk a little bit about that experience and that whole saga. And then obviously people can check it out themselves. - Yeah, well, thank you. Conning the Con, yeah. I mean, it's where it all started for me in terms of podcasting. So let me take you back to the very beginning of what happened. It was 2018 and my little sister Emma had swiped right on a guy that she met on Tinder. And she dated him for around about six months. And, you know, like he just seemed so perfect, almost too perfect. So perfect in fact that I used to call him Dirty Andrew to his face like Joe Kingley. Yeah, I'd be like, oh, you sound good to be true. You're gonna be Dirty Andrew. It was about the time, obviously, that Dirty John was coming out. So I was just about to say, yeah, he got the reference. He got the reference. So she's dated Dirty Andrew as I like to call him for six months. And then the day after she's put through quite a wedge of cash into his bank account for a property investment, which by the way, was done through lawyers and banks. Nobody spots that this guy is a complete fraudster. Money hits his bank account. Emma goes to sleep. The next day she wakes up to her friend like bashing on the window, going, "Emma, Emma, wake up, wake up." And at that moment, her world just basically shatters into pieces and she finds out what his real name is and that he has been in prison previously for fraud. So at that point, you know, he's now got $300,000 New Zealand dollars. So I think that's probably, I don't know, 50 cents in Australia. And in America, I can't do the conversion. No, it's not. I'm joking. It is a lot, a lot of money, hundreds of thousands still. And he's got this money of hers, but the kicker was he didn't know that he'd been rumbled. So we decided to hit record and then spent the next sort of two and a half months going around behind the con man and pulling down his little web of comms, blowing them up one by one. And when it was happening, we realized that it was just such an insane story as it was unfolding, that we thought, right, we need to record this. I don't know what we're going to do with it. I was going to ask you if you had plans. Well, I mean, we just knew that the story was unfolding in such a crazy way that we were just like, I don't know, but well, let's just, let's just get through it. And I think we were kind of recording it for a little bit of a posterity as well, just to be kind of like, oh my God, we're not even going to believe this ourselves. And so COVID hit that information, that all the audio recording was sitting there for a while. And Emma and I kept going back and forward and thinking about, okay, well, should we do something with it or should we not? Because it was like, well, we don't know what the backlash will be if we do release this. But over that time period, we kind of came to the realization that if we could stop one other person from being conned, then it was going to be worth it. And that was our North Star when making that podcast. And so we released it in 2021, I think. And I basically spent all of COVID and we spoke about this just off here before, literally sitting on GarageBand in my lounge and working out how to put a podcast together. So yeah, that was conning the cone. - Yeah, one of the brief version. - Yeah, yeah, that's the brief version. But the bottom line that I take from that, other than the GarageBand at the end, I think a lot of people started the idea of, what can I do with my time during this COVID period? And I think a lot of creativity comes from being forced to stay inside sometimes. I mean, I do, I always have this theory that all the best like serial killer shows and stuff like that come from Scandinavia area because it's just the weather there is just, you know, it's not the best all the time, it gets dark, it's cold. I mean, I live in Denver now and I can tell you that when it's sunny 300 days a year, it's so much harder to be creative than it is when it is a little bit on the cooler crisper side. - I've never thought about that, but being a Kiwi that lives in London, I can, I totally agree. I don't think I'm gonna leave the house for about six months. - Yeah, and speaking of that, and that Peter and Scott were an R Kiwis. And so-- - They're Australian. - They're Australian. - They're Australian. - Okay, all right, all right, all right. - Back it up. - So back it up. How did they come about? How did you meet them from going from conning the con to being a, since you're sitting there in 2021, you're, not yet a podcast producer, you're beginning to be a podcast producer. And now we sit here at 2024 and you have multiple shows, you have won awards. - What has happened in those years? - I know. - What's the magic, you know, what's the secret sauce? - Yeah, I think it's a train that I've got on and have not got off, I think, the podcast creation train. So how it kind of flowed is from conning the con, literally the month after Emmer had discovered she was dating this serial con man. My second podcast kind of came to fruition because unfortunately, and you might think I'm the bad luck when I tell you this, my parents-in-law then discovered that they were in one of the largest Ponzi schemes in New Zealand. So they came to me and said, once conning the con was released, can you do our story next? So that then became my next podcast. So it wasn't like I had like a long time in between, it wasn't like I just sat there and went, oh, okay, I don't have another podcast to make that happen. And then from there with conning the con's sort of success, I ended up getting invited to a different platform and that's where I met my co-host on my next podcast, which has stopped the killing with Catherine Schweit, the former head of the FBI's active shooter program. Now, there's the long way to get there, but there's a reason that I'm telling you that because listeners of my other shows often send me information like, can you look at this guy? Can you look at this guy if it's a con artist? And that's what happened. So I had a listener write in and say, I have got my suspicions that this guy that is named blah, blah, blah as a con artist, can you look at him? The first victims of that con artist happened to be Scott and Peter from watching two detectives. So I reached out to them on a completely different project that I'm working on. And when we started talking and realized they were retired homicide detectives, it kind of grew out of that. And like you said earlier, I think before, maybe we hit record, it's always so interesting to get a peek behind the curtains of law enforcement if you've not been in law enforcement. So my natural curiosity just was like, yes, tell me everything. And that's how we connected. - That's wild. And I think it's impressive as a podcast producer myself and host that you've been able to produce so much content along the way in a variety of different ways and not necessarily all true crime. I mean, they're stop the killing. Talk about that for a second 'cause that's got a little bit of serious issues behind it. - It does, so stop the killing. As I said, the co-host for that is Katherine Schweit. And she, after Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting back in 2012, she was tasked by then Vice President Joe Biden to do the first ever research into mass shootings, which I always think is absolutely astounding that in 2012, no research had been done on a government level. You'd already had Columbine. You know, this was an issue that was growing and growing and growing. - There's a reason for that that you know, right? - The realm. - The Dickey Amendment. - What was the Dickey Amendment? - In 1996, the U.S. Congress passed a law around the amendment that restricts gun. - Yes. - Any sort of gun studies. - Research. - Yeah, can't spend tax-paired dollars on gun research. God forbid. - That's right. - That's right, I had forgotten about that. - And we've only had what, Columbine since then? - Perklin? - I mean, everything. - Everything, everything? - Yeah, exactly. You've already, it just keeps going and going and going. So, I feel very privileged to actually sit down with Katherine and Picker Brains because we came at that conversation initially as an outsider from the U.S. Saying, well, why don't you just get rid of all the guns? We've done it in Australia, we've done it in New Zealand. You know, there's new restrictions. In the UK after Dunblain massacre, what's going on? And literally after the first episode, which we did on Sandy Hook, I was like, okay, right, this is such a nuanced conversation. And over the four seasons, almost five seasons that we've done, I've come to realise that what we can do, it might feel hopeless, but there's incremental gains that we can make. And as an example of that, we actually had a listener of the podcast who was an assistant principal reach out to us and tell us that because of the information that she'd learned from Katherine on the podcast, she'd put all of that into action in her school. They'd created this culture of see something, say something. They had an anonymous reporting system. They had a really robust three assessment team and they managed to stop an imminent school shooting from happening within days. So we can make a change, but the thing that I've taken away from stop the killing the most is that we're the first line of defence, the community, not law enforcement, we're so many more peers of eyes, but it's knowing what to look for. So that's kind of what we do on stop the killing is raise the awareness of what to look for. - In regards to stop the killing, I noticed that there's, you have five seasons. And how do you pick the topics? You just focus on individual events or you pick an overall topic for the season and kind of check the boxes as you go because it's one of those, like you said, it's very nuanced and America is unique in its way and in a very bleak way, a gun culture, which, hey, teach the zone. I'm not just trying not anybody's second amendment, right? So whatever, whatever floats your boat. It's more of the rabid sort of, get me my guns culture that is sort of the one that is just kind of unbecoming and the reason why we have more guns per person, then it's a serious issue that is beyond just one season of a podcast or it's again, or five, or even 150 plus years in Congress. These are the things that are issues that are always gonna be issues. I don't think we're gonna ever finally come and go, okay, this is it, we're gonna be Australia and actually do a real big buyback or something like that. I don't ever see that happening because it's been ingrained in people's minds that this is just your God's given right, which it's whatever, teach the zone, like I said. It's how you use those guns is what the issue is really and then how easily you can get those guns. Like, don't tell me it's mental health issues if you don't put up guardrails and then, you know, vote against anything that would benefit the mental health system to prevent these horrible events. It's so common sense and I know that that's an overused expression when it comes to gun laws, but it is. It's like, okay, not common sense to say a good guy with a gun is better than, you know, is what-- - Yeah, I mean, it's uncommon sense, isn't it? That's the thing, that's the problem. But, I mean, we come at it on stop the killing is very much from a, and I think this is the thing with this topic, you have to be a political about it. You can't trade a political line with it because what I've understood and realized from pretty much a lot of the work I've done with con artists as well, not when I say con artists, it's not anything to do with the gun culture. I mean in the fact that when people get to a belief system that they have got to, not through facts, but because of something that they really believe that it's very difficult to argue the way out of that fact with facts. So, what we try and do is provide like a space on stop the killing where we'll just give you the research and you can go away and interpret that. And whatever way, whatever lens it is that you kind of get, but those are the facts. And there are things that we can all do, regardless of the rules that we're kind of working within. And I think it's really important to know that, you know, Catherine's a gun owner, she even teaches like the Second Amendment at DePaul University. So, she is, you know, we're not, four guns, we're not against guns on the podcast. Our personal opinions, we deliberately try and keep out of that for that very reason that we just want people to hear the facts and know that they can do whatever you're like opinion is, there'll be something that you can do to make a difference in the community. - Same thing with me, I'm apolitical about it because I have plenty of friends that have lots of guns and they are totally normal people and it is not a knock against anybody. It's just, we do have a gun culture here that is different than anywhere else in the world. And there are certain things about it that just aren't the coolest, but I'm not gonna rain on anybody's parade. If that floats your boat, just don't go shoot up a school. How about that? - Right, and maybe don't be giving guns as stocking fillers to underage people. - 100%. - That to me, 100%. - 100%. - Just have some common sense and that's it. That's it, that's it. I mean, again, like you said, when you know what to look for, I mean, we've pretty much in the last 25 plus years since Columbine, we pretty much have a pretty good idea where the sort of manifesto type killer is gonna come from and you can see it in the case in Michigan with the crumbly case, you know? He literally was pulled from class because of drawings and for whatever reason was allowed to return and parents obviously were prosecuted and found guilty for negligence and yada, yada, yada. And then we have the other killing where the adult is, again, on trial, but he's on trial for murder. So, you know, there are some things that are happening that are good, but I'm not here to say take away your guns or anything like that. - I mean, I think if anything, the Oxford shooting that the crumbly case has actually probably given people a bit of a wake up call in terms of the fact that, you know, you do have parental responsibility and there was so many, we've done a lot of case, a lot of episodes on the Oxford shooting case. In fact, we've followed it all the way along and there was so many sort of like moments that this could have been derailed right throughout his schooling history. It's screaming out, you know, telling teachers that he wanted help. And, you know, we know this in hindsight and it's not a blame game, but it's understanding from moving forward, okay, well, you know, this is what you can recognize from there, but going back to your original question about also how we come up with the idea for each season. Let me just say very organically, but what reminded me of that is, I think on season two, it kind of took a different twist when we had Frank Deangelis, who was the principal of Columbine, come on, and he's a friend of Catherine's and Catherine's worked with so many of these people. And so we've done so many incredible, incredible episodes with survivors of shootings or families who've lost children at Parkland, for example. Season five, we've got Michelle Gay from Sandy Hook, from us coming on who lost her daughter at Sandy Hook. So that kind of is part of, you know, that's one way that we get guests is that kind of thing through Catherine's network. And we want to look at, you know, these people have taken the worst, most horrific incident that's happened in their lives. You hope that nothing worse could possibly happen. And they are doing incredible things to make the community safer. So it's really inspiring when you talk to them and you think, God, you know, if you can do this after what you've been through, and you're not even doing it for yourself, you're doing it to make the community safer that for other people, I think it's just a really hope-filled message that comes from them. - Yeah, I followed David Hogg on social media. And, you know, he's obviously taken this in Parkland case. And, you know, obviously it was a student there. And he is definitely one for gun control. And it's interesting to watch how these kids have survived through the, like you said, these traumatic events. But yet somehow turn those events into something positive. I think that is the only thing you can really do in a situation like that. I mean, honestly, I mean, I live here in Denver. I probably live about 10, 15 minutes from Columbine. And my buddy is a principal. And he's been a principal out here for a number of years. I mean, you know, 15 plus years and 20, I don't know. And he, you know, he's worked with many of the teachers that were at Columbine. And yeah, he says it's just something that, you know, you're never gonna forget. And I mean, we think about what we've gone through since then and how many other teachers, parents, and children have been traumatized by these events. What you're doing with the show, I think is incredible. And that's where I feel like the podcasting aspect of true crime and advocacy can kind of meet in the middle. Even though, you know, it's true crime, but it's not true crime. It's, it's, it's combining two terrible things, but trying to make something positive out of it. And I think we see that with CrimeCon, and I've mentioned it before in the show and people are probably sick of me saying it, but we have witnessed, and I know that you, at least in the last few years, have noticed that it's become much more of an advocacy event than it has as far as a fan festival. I do feel like there's just a lot of people out there that have realized that they can come to an event like CrimeCon and tell their story and possibly get somebody to cover it. And I mean, with Stop the Killing, obviously, those are huge national, international news events. And so there's tons of information. But where CrimeCon comes in, you can get somebody that's from rural Utah or something again, and tell their story and, you know, who else is going to cover it? That's where I find the fork in the road that I was sort of in for a long time in this 2024 about production and about content and what felt kosher and what didn't. And so it's like, my conscience just sort of took over and I just kind of wanted to not just be a content machine. And so, therefore, I was selective on what I did. Even though it stunted me, I felt like it was sort of one of those things like you get writer's block. I mean, we all do. And it's just sort of like you need something to kick you out of it and talk into creators and talk into people like yourself and Scott and Peter and then the Carol and Linda who I just talked to over the weekend, the Bob Crane biographers and those are the people that inspire you to keep going and remember that there are good things that can come from doing this industry and it's not exploitation where it felt like that at some stages in this genre, I just will just say. - I think that's very true. I think there's been a definite move away from that. Even just in terms of what I used to consume wasn't the same ethical content around. So I mean, there was a conscious shift. I remember just to be like, okay, I'm not that podcast off my list. That's not what I want to be listening to. But I mean, going back to, you know, Con in the Con, that was always my North Star was to educate people on how not to get conned. And that's why my media companies here at Ferris Media, the tag line is it's media with purpose because if there's no reason for me to tell you that story, if you're not going to be wiser, more protected, safer, I'm not going to make it. And that's kind of carried across all of my podcasts. So Con in the Con, we have a psychologist on it who talks about the red flags and the trauma recovery from being conned. Clueless, we have forensic psychiatrist Dr. Shaham Das, who's a crime con UK favorite. And he goes through and talks about how not to be, you know, how to recognize somebody that might be a fraudster. Obviously, stop the killing. We've had that incredible moment where we had the school shooting that was averted. But what really hit home with that was the weekend before we got that email from the assistant principal saying this shooting had been averted. We're just on an interview with Elizabeth Stout, who was a survivor at Parkland. And she was in one of the classrooms where somebody was murdered. And the impact and fallout that you could hear in her has changed the course of her life. And then fast forward to getting their email and thinking, wow, you know, the fact that that information that Catherine's put on the podcast has saved not just that child who was a shooter, not just the kids in that school, but the entire community from being another school, just a name that everybody knows, like you're Voldy or Columbine, you know, that's purpose. That's what I hang on to whenever I do look at what we're doing. And I think, you know, with watching two detectives, which is a very much more narrative podcast style, the arc that has come out of that, which was unexpected, is this very cathartic, kind of healing journey for the victims families that have been involved in the stories. So yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I 100% agree, ethical true crime, it can happen and be entertaining, and it still can have so much purpose behind it. Yeah, again, you know, there's a reason why Dateline and 48 Hours and, you know, these shows have been around forever. It is an interesting and definitely gets the ratings. There's nothing wrong with those shows, there's nothing wrong with the people that didn't ingest those shows. I've been there done that. My whole thing is at the moment, just focusing sort of on the lesser known cases, my tagline for my media company is a voice for the voiceless. So I love that. Yeah, that's purpose. That's purpose, and that's the way that I, again, I do cover well-known crimes like John Benet and Madeleine McCann, and it's, I've done them all, but 'cause they're there, and there's lots of content for there to be a show, whereas some of these other cases, they're just aren't. I know that the guys from True Crime Garage and then James Runner, they started Portrait Project, where they fund DNA testing and stuff like that. That's another way of turning their success into advocacy, which is awesome, and that's what I like to see. And I think we are turning that corner. But, again, I think like any industry, especially with podcasting, it was the Wild Wild West for a long time, to a degree it still is. I think, can seem as a being more responsible as well, and more aware of it, you know? I think, yeah, I think when you have so much saturation out there, you can tell, you can pick and choose the quality over the-- Salatiousness. Exactly, and so-- Yeah, the button hitting. Yeah, with that being said, there are shows that have kind of walked the fine line and have been very successful doing it. It's just be very conscientious when you do this if you get into this business. It's like, you can't always mix humor and murder. It's a very slippery slope, and behind the bastards is one of my favorite podcasts, and that's always one of those shows that has a comedian on to sort of balance out the-- Happiness. Yeah, the heaviness of the subject matter. And I feel like that there is a place in this business. Oh, I think so. And I think the guys from True Crime Garage do that very well. And again, the whole thing is great. These stories would not have been told if this medium did not exist. It's just-- It would not. I mean, to get a television show made, originally I started with Who Killed Amy Mahalovic. That was my case because I grew up with the case. And so I saw it every day in the media. It was three miles from my home. I didn't want to exploit her family, so I talked to her dad, I talked to the people in charge, talked to the people investigating runner, Nick, captain, blah, blah, blah. And then pulled it all together to make a longer series because I wanted to tell the story as it was a-- not just a news blip because having worked in news, we know that you can only do so much. So I'm just at that point where I feel that shows like conning the con, like you have watching two detectives where there's shows, like you said, it's about healing. It organically turned into that. And you saw that and Peter and Scott talked about that in our episode about how emotional it was that day when they went to the murder site. And it's definitely impactful. And I've been to where Amy's body was found. And it brings it into perspective and what you're doing with your platform. And it just sort of, not to be Peter Parker and Spiderman, but with great power comes great responsibility. And I think when you have the power of a microphone in front of you, I think you should use it judiciously and cover cases that one, maybe like, I like to cover cases that aren't solved personally. Doesn't necessarily make for the best ending but I think that's part of the advocacy that you can get out of it, isn't it? Because you can really ignite that case back up for people. And I think that's really, really important. I mean, I know that on watching two detectives we've got some really exciting stuff coming at the end of the year. There's gonna be some new kind of Jane Doey kind of cases coming up. And I know that that's gonna ignite people's passion and desire to actually feel like they've got some power in it as well. So I think that's really important what you're doing. - I just want people to understand that not everybody's out here to exploit or take advantage and that was never the plan. I think majority of people start these with good intentions. They don't always end up that way 'cause I think there's a lot of people out there that can easily be persuaded with this, that and the other. And I don't know, I've sat on the panel before about the ethics of true crime and it's interesting to hear people talk about it. And I think that with what we are doing and as producers, it is sort of our responsibility to be putting out a product that is not of that kind of salaciousness or that feeling of exploitation or this type of sliminess. And I think we can do it well. One of the things that I got out of crime kind of the first year I went, I was 2019. It was New Orleans, it was really cool and it was a great time. - So gosh, did I miss that one? I would have loved to do that one. - It was a good one. Maybe it was good because it was my first and I'd everybody loved that one, but it is what it is. Each crime kind has its own special thing. So New Orleans was cool. And the thing that I got out of it was I did this show, my passion case. It was where I talked to all the different podcasters and I met them, create a row and said, hey, you guys want to come on the show and talk about what case it was that got you into crime and true crime and what it drove, you know, what was it? And so that was my passion case. And I guess I wanted to ask you what your passion case was because but counting the con sort of is your passion case. But do you have a case in England or back at home in New Zealand that sticks with you to this day that you would like to be solved? Or has been solved in that most passionate case? - Well, it's funny that you say that because when I was at crime con, we just had the UK crime con like two weekends ago. And we were talking about a lot, you know, this kind of why women in particular are interested in true crime. And I mean, I think it's because we like to know our enemy and you educate yourself. So there's a natural fascination for women to kind of educate themselves. So that's why I did it. But then I was talking to another podcast producer and she was saying, yeah, there was cases that in her childhood made her realize that there was evil out there. And for her, she was a lot younger than I am, it was the Jamie Bolger case, which was the horrific. Do you remember that one? It was horrific. It was the youngest killers. They were 12 and they took a two year old, Jamie Bolger. - Oh, yeah. - It was horrific. - That was awful. - Mm-hmm. So that was her case. That is a really well-known case in the UK. But in New Zealand, when I was growing up, the case that kind of was like that record scratch kind of moment that my God, the Z evil out there was the David Bain murders, which is, if you haven't listened to, there's an excellent podcast called Black Hands at all about the David Bain murders. But it was a famous case because the son David was out on his paper round. This is how the story goes. Early in the morning and he came back home and everybody in his family had been shot. And it looked like the father, Robin, had committed suicide and that was how it was set up. Then kind of proceeded to be that actually David, who was on the paper round, was charged with the murder. And then he was eventually found, like he was, he wasn't acquitted. The trial was found to be not quite, didn't hold up in court, so he then was released. I can't remember quite the details. But that was definitely the case that stuck with me. That end, ironically, given what I do with Stop the Killing, we had a mass shooting not too far from where I grew up called Ira Moana. And it was a siege of a town that really just shook the nation. So those are the two probably that, and not a lot of, it's New Zealand, it's a very safe place, but these were such catastrophic and horrific murders that they stuck with you forever, really. Do you know the main one? - Yeah, I mean, I was just, I just pulled it up and I recall it for sure, but the fact that they acquitted him after all those years. - I know, that has got to be. - And his lawyer is so, so convinced that he was innocent, but you know, you go through the evidence of the case and you have to be, I mean, I think it's one of those ones, like you say, that it sticks with people, like even though it's solved, is it solved? You'll be questioning yourself back and forth the whole time. - There's a case that actually occurred, and a lot of my listeners will know the case of Sam Shepard, and that is the doctor from Bay Village who in 1956 or whatever, was found guilty of murdering his wife or supposedly had a fight with a bushy-haired man. It led to the show "The Fugitive" and then the movie with the Harrison Ford "The Fugitive." He was found guilty in his first trial. It was a huge media sensation. I mean, like, if the Lindbergh trial, it was like the Lindbergh trial and the O.J. Simpson trial all came together, and I mean, they had a gymnasium where they recreated the scene. It was, I mean, it was a media frenzy, and so he was found guilty because basically the papers were like, "When are you gonna lock 'em up? Lock 'em up." That was like big, bold letters on the front page of the Cleveland Press and the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and it was F. Lee Bailey, who eventually got involved, and got 'em off after 10 plus years in jail. - Wow. - The weirdest thing about that is that when you have those years in between a trial and a retrial, what gets lost or what gets left out of the next trial, you saw it with the Menendez brothers, is a perfect example. They're in the news, right? They're in the news right now. - They are, yeah. - The first trial, obviously, was a mistrial. So, they come back and they're not allowed to present their case, basically, in the second trial, and they're found guilty. I mean, I don't know if that's fair or not, but it is definitely a theme. With the Shepard case, he went on to be a professional wrestler. He has an alcoholic. He had a move in professional wrestling called The Claw, and his nickname was The Killer, which is just a little on the nose. - And also, you just would that happen now? I don't know. - He was on Johnny Carson, the week he got out of jail. - It's just insane. Like, that's what we need to move away from. - So, you have these cases, and I could see the Menendez brothers getting another trial. - Yeah, there's a lot of buzz around that at the minute. - With the new evidence that's come out about his father and the allegations about Minuto. And yeah, it is disgusting, horrible stuff. And yeah, nobody wants to believe that that happened. But if it did, then there is some justification for them fearing for whatever they were fearing for. Not to say that they deserve to be let out. They blatantly murdered their parents, but there may have been underlying circumstances that actually were true, but weren't allowed to be presented in that second trial. So, I think it's interesting to keep an eye on that particular case. That's definitely not a voice for the voiceless case though. - I definitely wouldn't want to be on the jury for that one, my gosh. - No, no. - You know, you triggered a memory for me actually. There was a, absolutely. I mean, what I love about CrimeCon is the stories that come to the stage, and particularly in the UK, we had this incredible woman called Anne Ming, whose daughter Julie was murdered. I can't remember how long, it was a long time ago now by somebody that she knew. Long and the short of the story is, went to trial and they didn't convict him, he got offered. But because of the double jeopardy law, because he got off, he just went out and told you where I needed done it. So, Anne Ming, this absolute force of nature, and she's, you know, like, I don't know, forfeit nothing, never, never, ever anger a mum as the lesson here, she got the double jeopardy rule abolished in the UK. And because of that, 13 people who had got out and got away with murder are back in prison. - The power of the mum? - Yeah, I mean, you guys have had some weird angel of death cases. - Well, we have, you know, that's, I don't know if that's, I mean, we've had our own here, but there have been a couple in the UK that have been pretty freakin' bad. - Terrific. - Terrific. What's the one that's wrong? - Our shipment? - Yeah. - Is that what? - Yeah. - Yeah, you know, these guys, there's just something, it's sort of what we talked about earlier, and I don't know, again, if we talked about it on air or not, but the parallel between putting yourself in a position, yeah, we did not talk about that, but putting yourself in a position to be able to commit those types of crimes. - Mm-hmm, 100%. And I think you find that a lot with fraudsters, right? Part of their armour is to give themself an elevated power status to lead with that, because, you know, I'm currently working on a case where there's a guy who is and has portrayed himself as an admiral in a, you know, global navy. Sounds crazy. But part of the fact that he went for being an admiral meant that he was the chain of command. So people below him had one less sort of, they couldn't ask him or question him when he was doing out of control kind of things that seemed wrong, because he had that level of power, and power and balance is just danger, danger, danger, danger in any situation. - You've seen it in the UK with Jimmy Saville and, you know, top of the pops and the BBC cover up. And I mean, man, that is some next level stuff. I mean, we have Epstein over here and-- - And we've got Prince Andrew over here. - Prince Andrew over there. I mean, yeah, you know, there's a lot of similarities there. We got Diddy doing Diddy things and, you know, God forbid, you know, the things that are gonna come out with that and, you know, it is a power thing. And it's, again, teachers taking advantage of students, show creators taking advantage of fans, TV hosts taking advantage of the audience. You can name it. It's a power structure thing. We've seen it in business, even, you know, at the highest levels of business, you know, the stuff that happened at Fox News, whatever your opinion about Fox News is, which fake news, but not real, not in the way that that guy likes to say fake news. It's just, if you don't actually cover the news, then you don't really get the-- - Is it the news? - Is it really the news? Especially when you claim it's entertainment and in lawsuit, that's why it shouldn't be taken seriously. - You know, maybe that's probably not the best thing to put on record. Anyway, moving on. Thanks a lot, Rupert Murdoch and your pronies. Cool stuff. - Yeah, what Australians, eh? - Yeah, good stuff, good stuff. And yeah, that, you know, no problems, no problems here with that. But yeah, back to, you know, the whole, the case of Bain and the case of Shepherd and, you know, these other cases where they have tried years after the fact, I think we'd know, and I think we can pretty confidently say that the West Memphis, West Memphis three case was bungled. They shouldn't have had to take an Alfred plea. - When I was getting into the weeds, getting into the weeds with me and I can't, I can't comment on the case. - Yeah, well, you know, that was the one, that was the biggest one here and about as far as miscarriage is justice. You know, locking up teenage boys and getting a confession from a lower IQ than an individual. - Yeah. - There was just lots of red flags and then they have no way of seeking compensation for their. - See, the difference, I think also, 'cause Bill, you are doing cases all the time, right? You're doing all those cases, you're doing deep dives. I have to confess that if I'm not doing the case, I listen to history podcasts. So I always feel like I'm missing half of the true crime world, which is terrible. - It's actually not terrible because when I started into true crime, I listened to true crime and I actually don't really listen to much true crime anymore other than my-- - I think that's a natural progression. - Yeah, I know. - You know, listen to Nick and the captain and a few close friends and then, but mostly stuff you should know and behind the bastards. I mean, hands down, those I listen to the most and-- - I'm gonna have to listen to them. - That night, night? - They're fantastic, well produced, very, very, very good shows. Behind the Bastards is very well researched. Robert Evans, the host, is extremely well, again, researched, but he's just, he really, he writes out his scripts. He takes deep dives into these horrible people and like is interesting stuff. And if there's any recommendation I ever give to people, I'm like, true crime garage and behind the bastards. And then if you just want some of them-- - And calling the con. - And calling the con is now on my radar. The thing about recommendations and stuff like that, it's just word of mouth is so much in this business. And like what we're doing today, talking about each other's shows, talking about, you know, the industry itself, I feel that's what we kind of need to do and continue to do as this industry grows because we're still growing industry. We're far from complete. There's still so much room to grow and people still don't necessarily 100% know what a podcast is. I think we're probably what, 70%. - Yeah. - People know what it is. I mean, it's really still, it's, you gain every year, but-- - Yeah, no, I agree. And I think discovery is such a big part of having a podcast is working out. Like you can make the best content in the world, but if you're doing it in a vacuum, good luck to you. - Yeah. - It is all about the connections that you make. And the thing I love about, you know, all the other podcasts that you end up connecting with, there's some of the stories are amazing. Like I met up with a girl called Medicine McGee. I'm not sure if you've come across her. She's done ice cold case. - Look at the culture. Okay. - She was at US crime con as well. And her story is just one of those ones where you're like, "Yeah, this is what podcasting's all about." So she's reopened the case of her father's murder and is re-investigating it. And it's so well produced her podcast and she's just a really inspirational young. I say young 'cause she's younger than me, but she is young. And yeah, really, really, really, really, you listen to her and you just hang on every word and you think, yeah, she's doing great things. - Yeah, there are a lot of people out there that are doing great things. I mean, we've seen shows that have gotten cases solved and re-integrated cases. I mean, even barstool sports, put out a couple true crime podcasts that's got some action and some resolution. And I think that's the goal on most people's minds when they do set out to do these cases 'cause it is typically a case that gets you going. And yeah, I do do different cases in like a serial podcast where I cover just, do I do one case a week or something like that? But when I started, again, I focused solely on the Amy Mahal of that case. And I think that's what my next step is in the world of my show is going to do another deep dive into like a local case. Since I'm in Denver now, I have a new, basically a whole new field of-- - I've been old miles to look through. - Yeah, and there are some really creepy ones. I mean, there's a case out of Bailey where this girl was going home between school graduation and interrupted a robbery and she was killed and they burned her house down and nobody's been. - Wow. - Yeah, so-- - Stay tuned, listeners. - Stay tuned. - I always got some stories are coming. - Yeah, yeah. So, you know, at the end of the day, let's just keep producing quality content and ethical true crime. I know that some of these cases they just become salacious because that's the nature of the business. There's no way around it. How can you tell a case without talking about the crime itself? - Well, it's so funny you should say that because on Stop the Killing, we have a rule that we don't ever name the shooter. - Sure. - So, you know, there are ways around it. - Absolutely. - And it is, I mean, I love this trend that's on TikTok at the moment. I don't know if you're on the side of TikTok, but where they rewrite the headlines and like newspapers and stuff, crime headlines so that the victim becomes first. And it's just such a simple, like, awareness and reshuffling of the same words that I think is, yeah, I hadn't thought about it. And now I consciously see it and think, oh, God, they've done that headline the wrong way round or whatever. So there's definitely ways. And I do think, you know, I think there's a real awareness now that we're not talking or giving the serial killers the glorification. Sometimes we get it right and then sometimes we go back a step. So I felt like, you know, for Netflix for a while there, we'd kind of, we're going down the wrong path. We had like, Dahmer and it was all about Dahmer. And, you know, and then we had the-- - Or Waco, where they made-- - Right. - Like a rock star and I'm stealing from behind the bastards there because he always talks about how they made them. - Exactly. - Made them like-- - Hot. - It's like what? - Oh my God, that's grim. But also the other one that was like that, that kind of got my heckles up. From the perspective of the fact that my, you know, my family's been conned twice now, was the fake arias, the Anadelve story where they actually made the victims like completely victim-shamed them because they had money or whatever. No, that to me changed the narrative. They went about 10 steps back and instead of forward where they could have been like really stripping back that narrative that victims of con artists are gullible or greedy or whatever. No, you've just been in the crosshairs of a criminal and they're coming for you regardless. - Yeah. - And that's the narrative that it needs to be sort of shifting to, which is what I try and do with all my podcasts of the con stories is we need to stop that victim shaming. So, I mean, I think there's definitely ways we can do it. - Somebody in my family, well, very close to me get scammed. I have significant money in the last fall from the old freeze your computer trick. - Oh God, yeah. - And yeah, it definitely is one of those, if you can prevent that from happening to people that we love that would be great. And, you know, again, that's at the end of the day, you know, if we're doing anything, we're just pointing the light on to subject matters that maybe aren't being pointed out, so. - Right, you gotta shine a light in those dark corners that they're operating in so they've got nowhere to hide. - All right, so where can everybody find your shows? - You can find calling the con and clueless and stop the killing and all of them on all the usual platforms Apple and Spotify, but you can also go to seraphherismedia.com and you'll find them all there as well. And if you wanna have a look and see what's coming up, you can go to my Instagram, which is @conmunitypodcast. So, con with an N, see what I did there. - Oh, very, very witty. I like it. - Love a pun. - I like it. Well, I appreciate you from the producer and me and the host, I appreciate your insights. And I think that anybody who is in this business and does listen to this episode will hopefully take something positive out of it in the sense that we're out here doing what we can to make these stories known and stay in the spotlight. So let's just keep on keeping out. So, Tara, thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. - Thank you for having me, thanks, Boo. - All right, look forward to talking to you again soon. - Perfect. - Thank you so much to Sarah Ferris for joining me this week on Who Killed to discuss her shows as well as some of the cases that have inspired her along the way. As you guys know, I drop new episodes of Who Killed every Friday and you can also listen to me on YouTube or wherever you find your podcasts. So, check it out. And again, if you wanna follow me on Twitter, you can do so and that is at Bill Huffman III or you can follow me on Instagram at slow_burnmedia and that's slow minus the W. So, as always, until next time, stay healthy and be safe. 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