Sam Lissington, are you ready to take on Fairfax & Favour's quick fire questions? - Ready. - Okay, let's go. What is your party trick? - Probably enthusiastic dancing, but that doesn't mean I'm any good at dancing. - Confusing how something's all you need, that's fine. - Which B is your favourite? - Bags, boots, or belts. - Boots. - Then belts, then bags. - What was your favourite subject in school? - I think English. - Sam Lissington, thank you for playing Fairfax & Favour's quick fire questions. - Thanks for having me. (upbeat music) - Today's episode of The Accuratings Adventing Podcast is actually a classic show, and we are throwing it back to 2020, when we spoke to Philip Dutton. It's a winner-com, at Philip Show, and it's a really interesting insight into a rider who has enjoyed a top-level career and is still enjoying a top-level career, I should say, as well, for both Australia and the United States of America. I hope you enjoy. Here we go, when Nicole met Philip, originally released back in 2020. - Welcome to The Accuratings Adventing Podcast. And listeners, we have got an exceptionally special show for you today. So my guest on the show has been to every world or Olympic Games since 1994. He has won Olympic medals, and he has been a stalwart of both Australian and the American teams throughout that period. We're really looking forward to looking back at a few of those career highlights and what is in store for the future. Welcome to the show, Philip Dutton. - Thank you, Nicole. Great to be here. - We're really looking forward to looking back at a few of your career highlights, because I touched upon a few of them there. It has been a thoroughly decorated career, and I'm sure there is lots in store for the future. But can we start by sort of going back to the beginning, back in your early childhood? Because am I right in saying that you were on a pony from very, very early on? - Yes, that's correct. I grew up in a small outback town in the middle of New South Wales called Ningen. Like my family had a sheep and cattle and some cropping there. And so, you know, horses were a part of my life. Right from day one, certainly for, you know, herding and droving with the sheep and cattle. So, you know, we always rode. But it was also for our sort of pleasure as well, like my grandfather had some resources that ran at the, you know, country race meetings. And my mum and dad started up the local pony club. So that was always stuff that we went to, you know, during the Christmas holidays and breaks and that kind of stuff. And then in Australia, there's lots of the agricultural shows that, you know, where you have show jumping and pack classes and all this and stuff. So, you know, it was kind of always, horses were always part of my life, but a very broad part of it. A thening was not so much, you know, I got into that later on. But riding was always, you know, something that my whole family did. - So how did the eventing come about? Because obviously you grew up with horses, loving them. But when did that become actually, this is going to be my career? - Well, I mean, I wouldn't say I didn't know it was going to come my career for a long time. I mean, I drifted into it because obviously I lived in a very isolated area and it was a sport that, you know, you could prepare for at home and then travel to the events. Unlike, you know, show jumping where you kind of had to be there doing it all the time. And there was an Australian guy that become friends of our family called Dennis Piggett. And he rode at the Montreal Olympics. And I remember he came out to the Pony Club and taught. And I was kind of mesmerized by his talk and, you know, he talked about the Olympics and going through everything that he went through. And I was only a young kid then. And I remember sort of dreaming about it ever since then. But, I mean, to your question about, you know, when I decided I'd do this, like I, we were a farming family and I sort of went to college and then went home and worked on the farm and didn't really ever think like I loved this sport, but I didn't think I could ever make a living doing it. And then we kind of, the agriculture in Australia at the time, this is kind of the late '80s. I was going through a really bad time. And I was the youngest in the family. And so I sort of basically decided to get out of the farm. You know, I didn't take anything out and just left my share and that to my brothers because it'd be less people to pull from the farm. And so then I was kind of on my own and thinking, okay, well, you know, I like doing this. So why don't I do it for a bit and try, you know, just seeing where it could go and not really thinking that, you know, that's kind of what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And that's how I end up traveling to America. - Is that, so that would be when you moved over to the US, was it back in 1991? You made the-- - Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. - Move. - Yes. - Yes. - How did that work? Did you have somewhere set up to go when you moved? Or was that sort of starting from scratch yourself? - So, you know, somebody, generally in anybody's career, somebody gives them a leg up or a help or whatever. And, you know, I'd always like the idea of America and, you know, somebody once said to me for an hour, one hour worked anywhere in the world. You get more reward from America. And I'd always sort of remember that. And I didn't have a, I didn't have a really, you know, experienced horse. I just had a young horse that I thought had potential called True Blue Goodwood, and I flew to America and, you know, went around different places and traveled around. And I remember looking up Bruce Davidson's phone number in the phone book, which back in those days, nobody had cell phones. And so I organized a meet with Bruce and, you know, sometimes you've got luck on your side because that was in the hardest Bruce's career. And, you know, he wasn't even home that often, you know, but for him to pick up the phone. And so I came and I told him that I, you know, had a, I wanted to come over, but I didn't have much money and I needed to work. And so he said, "Leave it with me." And he set me up with a farm to come to and a place to work. And so that's how I sort of got started here. - And True Blue Goodwood, the horse that you took out with you to America, from Australia, actually turned into your first championship horse and the horse that you took to your first world equestrian games in '94, won a team gold in Atlanta in your first Olympics. And then to the world equestrian games in Rome in '98, as well. Tell us a little bit about True Blue Goodwood. - Well, it was an Australian starboard that raced not that well. And so I got him actually got help from my girlfriend at the time, her family helped me buy him. And, you know, he was, he was an incredible horse to have at that stage of your career. Because, you know, if he was a, he was a good horse, good, tough horse. And, you know, if you rode him well, he went well kind of thing. So I kind of learned what I had to do to get a tune out of him, and, you know, and he put up with some mistakes from my behalf, and he was very fast horse. And, yeah, but he was difficult enough. He was spooky and, you know, he was a bit hot at the shows. And so he sort of didn't give it to you, like every performance you had to, you know, get it out of him, but, you know, it was a great learning experience to me. And, and he was as tough as nails as well, you know, like he's just a really genuine thoroughbred horse. And, so, you know, he, he came up through the ranks pretty quickly. And, obviously, with me getting started in a new country, it was an ideal to have a horse at the, you know, these upper levels, and that's sort of how you get yourself now, and so it was great to have him and to be able to campaign and, you know, travel to some of those bigger events and start out my career with him. And how was your first Olympic experience? Because you were representing Australia, but actually at Atlanta, which was in your new sort of home country in the States, how was that first Olympics? He had said that, obviously, it had been a bit of an inspiration to you growing up and sort of giving you a bit of a, oh, God, what if only that I could dream for that to happen? How was that experience in Atlanta? Well, it's obviously stuff you dream about, and, you know, but in reality, once you get there, it's just like another event, if you get what I mean, so, but it was, the big difference was, you know, most of the events, you know, I've been to some of the events at the Interbabement and that kind of stuff, but I hadn't quite realised the magnitude of when you're at the Olympics, the whole world is watching you, you know, and most of the question events, obviously the equestrian community is watching you, but not so much the, you know, the general public. And I remember that my, this is one of the memories in trying to answer your question is that I call, I looked after the cross country. I mean, Australia was way out in front by a big margin. And I thought I'd call my parents. And with the time difference that we're in Australia, obviously, and, you know, so I decided to, again, back in the day where you had to get a pay phone. And so it was going to be like, I think it was like one o'clock in the morning that I was calling them. And I thought, yeah, well, I'll wake them up and tell them how well we went or whatever. And I remember my dad picked the phone up on the first ring and he said, yes, I'm the father of that boy. And now we're having a big, big party in Australia at my house. And so everybody had been watching it. And they knew the score is better than I did there on the, at the, being there on the venue. And so, but it's, you know, that was, it is a different experience being there because, you know, it is such a, you know, the biggest sporting event in the world. And to be a part of it is, is really unique and something that you cherish and look back on. And especially if you're fortunate enough to be able to get on the podium, but at the time at day to day, it's, you know, the riding and everything else. You're up against everybody else that you usually compete against. So there's some similarity to everything else that you do on a daily basis. But obviously, then you put in the mix, the Olympic Village and everything else that goes along with the Olympics. And, you know, so it is, it is different. But then in some ways it's very similar as well to everything. You do. And it was a bit of a golden era for Australian eventing, that one team gold in 92, obviously at the team gold in Atlanta in 96, to go to Sydney, to go home to win a team gold in 2000. That must have been exceptionally special. Yeah, I know you've hit the nail on the head there. You know, there was a, you know, you look back on how that happened and why it happened. And, you know, there's a few common denominators there, obviously, you know, what we were across, was head of, you know, the Australian team then, and from Barcelona through. And so his experience and his horsemanship and his eye, so what was needed, you know, was invaluable. And Jim Dunn was the chef to keep. And Dennis Golding was the vet. And so there were kind of a rough bunch together. But, you know, they knew what was needed to win at that level and what kind of ride and what kind of horse they needed. And, you know, they weren't afraid to push you or to, you know, do what it took to get it out of you. And, you know, so I feel privileged to, you know, being in that situation. And, you know, Sydney, yes, you're right. I mean, it was, it was an interesting game because I actually flew out my horses with the American horses with the idea, you know, you had two options then to either fly directly to the venue, pretty close to the event. Although you could go quite a bit earlier, as in a couple of months earlier, going to quarantine in Australia, then be released. And you could train in Australia with the Australian horses. And so the American team decided to do that as in go quite early. And so I jumped on that flight with them and actually went and trained with Wayne Roycroft for, you know, a couple of months before the Olympics. And it was an interesting time in that, you know, leading up to those games, you know, there was not the Australian population probably didn't get behind it as much as they were hoping and nothing sort of was getting done. And then as it got close to the games, like there was so much hype and excitement about it. And then the whole country got behind it. And it turned out to be an incredible game. And, you know, even any other riders or athletes from all countries, you know, most people, you know, say it is one of the best games ever. And it was a highlight, you know, we'd obviously Australian to one goal for the last two Olympics. And, you know, coming there to the home country, it was kind of expectation and pressure on us to keep it going. And we were fortunate, we did. And it was a great time for me, you know, some of the Evie family from America came out and then all of my family and every friend that I've ever met in Australia, I think, were in Sydney in those days to work. And so it was a great, great time. And something that I never forget. - So how did it go from obviously you'd been to Sydney and it had been exceptionally successful at your last two Olympics? But America was home now. So how did you decide to change nationality? What was the, I'm taking it, I presume it took a little while and a lot of thought to go into making that decision. It's a big decision to make. - Yeah, I mean, it's kind of one of the toughest things I've ever done in my life to be the truth. And, you know, it was a pretty, pretty, it took me a while, enough courage to, after I was made the decision with Evie and I to do it, to call my parents and tell them. But, you know, as in most things with your parents, they took it so well and, you know, basically said they support me, doesn't matter what and they understood. But, so, you know, for me, I didn't have, I wasn't a sort of known rider in Australia when I left. I was just, you know, like everybody else trying to get ahead and try to learn and, you know, obviously just had the one horse. And so everything that I'd put together in my career, you know, it was done in America. And all the owners that I had with the horses coming up were all American owned and, you know, the kids here and go to school in America and so. And the sport had been good to me here as well. And, you know, all the events and the organizers and everybody, you know, was really feeling a part of it. And, you know, to this day, I still feel that I've been shaped by the way I am, you know, growing up in Australia and I still feel, you know, that I am an Australian person. But, I don't know, it just felt like the right thing to do. Especially with, you know, a lot of people owned the horses, you know, if I ever won the event, the Australian National Anthem played not American at them. And I also had a little bit of feeling that I wanted to give back a little bit to the sport in this country. And so Mark Phillips was the coach, chef, to keep at the time. And so I got along well with him and talked to him about it and how it could work. And, you know, it's very lucky, actually, or feel privileged to sit. And Russ Withers was President of the FEI and the EFA in Australia. And they did not, they said to the, I think it was the FEI of the International Olympic Committee that they didn't, generally, there's a ruling that if you've represented your country at Olympics, you have to sit and change your nationality. You have to sit out the next Olympics. And the Australian Federation asked that that not be held against me, which was a great, great thing for me because I didn't have to miss the championships if I was, you know, picked. So remarkable sportsmanship as well from-- Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. A generous thing to do. And actually, it probably sums up eventing very well. So going from, obviously, now riding for the US, your first championship was the Pan-American Games in Rio in 2007. And we'll come on to Rio and returning to the scene of the crime, so to speak a little bit later on in the show and talk about that. But how was that? Because that was an individual silver, a team gold. Did it feel different, or was it just that same team environment that you thrived in? Yeah, I mean, it's different. And I think every coach you have or every chef to keep you have is a little different. I mean, it's that America is a much bigger. Everything they do is, you know, more people involve less responsibility on a day-to-day basis. They have a pretty big team around you, and things are done a bit more for you than the Australian team. And I'm not saying one's right or one's wrong, but it's kind of different. But a lot of the same stuff that you go through, running order of the team, and what you're going to do on a daily basis. So there's a certain plan each day, and that was all very similar. The way the Australian team worked. But yeah, I mean, that was a great way to start out, because the Pan Am Games is a little bit lower level than the world's in the fix. And it was a good one to start on, because we did well, as we were successful as well. And from the Pan American Games in '07, 2008, and the Kentucky win with Connaught, tell us about that, because obviously, it was a huge win for America, and your first five-star win in America as well. Yes, so I've been second there many times. And actually, Connaught was such an inspiring story, because he wasn't a great Gallifer, and he's an incredible job. So I'd struggled to be able to get him, to be able to go for 11 minutes, and be able to come out the next day, and jump, and all that. And so it always-- it was always on the edge of whether he was going to quite had enough stamina to get that distance. And if you'd said to me a few years before, well, Connaught was going to be the first horse to win your five-star or four-star at the time. You know, I would have looked at you a bit funny, but he's such a big-hearted horse, and he's a great show-jumping horse. And it was a, you know, really great thing for me, Bruce Dutchesswa, who had been my friend, and unfortunately, he passed away. But he owned a horse, and so it was, you know, a great thing, because it was obviously-- it was great for me to win, but then to do it with, you know, one of my best friends as owner was, you know, a great moment. And then he was then obviously picked to go on to the Hong Kong Olympics or China Olympics. But like I said before, he wasn't a very fast horse, and so he wasn't ideally suited to, you know, that Hong Kong, of course, kind of cross-country. But, you know, he did his part. How did you sort of improve the galloping and such in order to win Kentucky? Was there anything you did in particular? Generally, you just think, "Oh, well, I'm going to gallop more on getting stronger and so on and so on." And actually, Mark Phillips said to me, you know, I think because he was a very difficult horse to manage and all credits in my groom, Emma Ford, who I think he probably took 10 years off a lot because she used to worry about him so much. But, you know, and he wouldn't eat and eat as a bad traveler and, you know, used to get stomach ulcers bad and all this kind of stuff. But, you know, Mark Phillips said to me, "I think you better off getting him there with more weight on and less galloping." And so I kind of did that, and I didn't run him very much because every time he went to an event, he'd lose 150 pounds and so we kind of got him there with more muscle and a bit heavier. And I think that was kind of to him. Certainly, you know, we need to have, you know, to be fit enough, but also, you know, there's a lot of couple of minutes he needed the strength to be able to keep going as well. And, you know, he didn't give him the greatest gallop in the world, so it's just a case of trying to top him everything so when as fast as I could without a shorter distance to every jump as I possibly could to shave off every second on him. - And it worked. - It worked. - You, now we have mentioned this on the podcast before because every Kentucky, we champion the American rider, 2008 rider to win Kentucky. Boyd Martin obviously came very, very close. Is it something on your radar that you would like to achieve again before you hang up your boots at some point, hopefully well into the future? - Yeah, no, I'd definitely like to look in there and anywhere else around the world too. And, you know, it's so competitive now. And, you know, you've got to horse at that level, you know, any of those horses at that level are pretty special, but, you know, the ones that can win and, you know, really nail, have a mistake-free dressage test and, you know, be able to go quick on the cross country and then good on the third day. You know, it's not easy to do, but yeah, that would be something I definitely want to do. - We've seen some very, very good horses, I suppose traveling over to Kentucky, all that would be in with the chance of sort of taking a podium finish each year that's made it very tough to do. So we'll be watching this space in hopefully 2021. If COVID can allow it, then we will be hoping for it in 2021. - Can I ask you mentioned working with Captain Mark Phillips? We actually had him on the show very recently in the Hall of Fame and he had such a fascinating outlook. He obviously had an extremely successful tenure with the U.S. squad and now obviously Eric D. Vander is in charge of that. Was the team environment like and how's your experience been? Because you've worked with many different coaches over the years at many sort of different levels and formats in countries. What's that system like in America? - Well, that's a big question. So, you know, I started out with Wayne Roeproft and then Mark Phillips and then actually David O'Connor was took over from Mark and now Eric has taken over from David. And you know, everybody, each one has a, you know, certain way that they do things. You know, this, if I had to categorize the country, I mean, we, you know, it is such a big country and it's, you've got all the different extremes from, you know, a landscape and the way things are done. You know, and it's not a huge sport in this country as in not that well known throughout the general population. And, you know, most of the writers sort of make a living to pay their way, not through people owning horses for them, but they sort of teaching and doing everything else on the side to try to make ends meet and feed themselves. And so, you know, I think a lot of the writers, the day to day is done, not so much trying to improve their writing all the time, but just trying to survive and having to manage it, you know, keep those horses going or whatever. And, you know, obviously it's getting better. There's more and more ownership coming into it. People owning horses. And, you know, from a federation point of view, I think, you know, everybody's trying hard, everybody's trying to get the same thing, which is, you know, the country to have good results. And, you know, I think that Eric is, he's got a plan going forward, he's trying to bring up, you know, the next generation of writers as well and trying to support these older guys as well, but they're still around and trying to, you know, get the best out of everybody. You know, I think if, you know, who knows, but, you know, you asked my opinion now, I think, probably, I think we try to spread ourselves a little bit too thin in America with funding and with coaching and trying to include everybody. And, you know, in any sport, you have to be a bit ruthless and you have to, you know, pick out, you know, certain horses, certain writers, certain athletes and ones that you can, you know, put that time and energy into those ones to make it work, you know, and try to get those ones consistent and bring up, you know, try to push that top part up and have other people trying to push into that top part. And, you know, I think that spreading out and just giving everybody a little bit of help or whatever, it doesn't, you know, I think there's a limit to where you go doing that. And so, from my point of view, I think it'd be better to sort of focus a little bit more on, for the higher end, not, I'm not talking about the sporty general now, I'm just talking about, you know, the high performance writers. - The very elite level. And to be fair, it's a very valid point. I mean, we've seen Germany in recent years having a massive amount of success. And actually, if you look at the writers on their teams during that success, it's probably a very small pool of writers that have given them an exceptional number of medals. I mean, Michael, you haven't talked too much. - And you see that in show jumping and dress out and the same, you know, like this certain, you know, not to say that they can't get bumped off or somebody can take their place, but, you know, it's not for everybody, you know, everybody says, oh, I just love to drive the Olympics. Well, there's a lot of pressure on you. And if it doesn't go well, it's not the greatest experience, you know, thinking even hard before you, do you really want to be there and do you want to be a part of that? And so, and it's not for everybody and it shouldn't be. And I don't think anything less of anybody is, it's not, but it's just, it takes a bit of, you know, there's a certain mentality that's got to be hard to get there and stay there. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you mentioned that obviously coaching is a big part and has been a big part of your life. And I know that that's something that gives you a lot of pleasure. Do you enjoy riding on teams alongside less experienced riders and being able to sort of share that experience with them, having been to the championships and have the experiences you've had where it's gone very well and when it hasn't gone to plan as well? - Yeah, I mean, you know, it's an interesting sport and that, you know, most of the time it's, we're an individual, you know, you've got your own team as in your people that own the horses for you and your family and your grooms and your coaches, but you're competing on your own. And then, you know, every couple of years you get put in a team and, you know, these people that you've been trying to beat or to end up in front of, and then all of a sudden it switched around and you're hoping for the best for them. And so it's kind of, it is neat, I like it. And, you know, it's, and it's different being on a team in that, you know, generally like I said, you know, you do your own thing and you look after yourself and then all of a sudden you've got other people, you've got to work in with and, you know, you've got to get on a bus with, you've got to get, you know, you've got to wait for your lesson and, you know, and you can't call the shots as much. But it is, you know, obviously Boyd and I, they're the friends and get along well and he's usually on our team and I'm, you know, usually there with him. And so that's kind of fun. And then, you know, it's been different people coming. But, you know, I'd say in general it's a good experience. And, you know, you go through a lot when you're under pressure, you know, and you go through a lot and being there with other people, you know, it's something that's, you, it sticks with you in your friendship or whatever, generally. But, you know, when you go through stuff like that, you know, team. - It doesn't mean that you definitely don't want to beat them when you next. (laughing) - Yeah, I'm sure. - That all starts fresh then. - Exactly. Can I ask, obviously Rio 2016 with the great Mighty Nice and it was your first individual medal, it was the individual bronze medal. How was that sort of Rio experience for you? You had been there for the Pan American Games out to the country in 2007 and back to Rio 2016. That must have been a pretty special experience as well. - Yes, I mean, it was, it was a great experience, you know, and there's always drama going into stuff, you know, horse is getting hurt. Like I was actually picked on another horse called Fernhill Cubylon and the reason, actually David O'Connor was the coach of the time and he talked to me and he said what, you know, what's your thoughts on which horse to take? And I thought, I said, oh, I think Cubylons, show jumping is just a little in front of Mighty Nice at the moment. And so let's go, you know, I wanted to go with him. So the selectors decided that. And then, and he gets hurt and Mighty Nice gets put into the team and, you know, and then again, konorth's owner, Bruce Thatcher's wife, just passed away before it. So it's Bruce's old horse that gets to go. And, you know, then it comes down to the show jumping, which I hadn't thought that we'd take him along because he's show jumping wasn't good. That was his heart, he just tried so hard. And, you know, I was fourth, I think I was fourth going into the final show jumping around and Chris Burton, Aussie Buddy, was there in third and I was more than happy with force because that was a great, great performance by my horse. And it couldn't have been more proud of him. And then I was fortunate enough to, and unfortunately for Chris, you know, he had the two rails down, so I moved up and down. But it was a good, you know, it was a great time. And it was disappointing to you, Chris, from our team point of view, 'cause we really had thought that we had a shot of at least picking up and doing okay there. And so I remember Boyd went out first, I think, and did a good job and got around. And then, unfortunately, the next two had trouble in the tent, I remember, you know, 'cause then it'd been the fourth rider, you know, depending on how your team goes, you know, sometimes can get told what you need to do to just to make it a good team result. And I remember when Lauren had the fall, looked at Evie and said, "Well, I don't have any choice now, "I'm just gonna go for it." And so that's what we did. And I got a bit lucky there at one jump where I didn't either spooked and sort of I had to hold him inside the flag, but he was down weekend. - Now I remember watching that flag video being replayed and replayed, but he was an extraordinary horse and it was an incredibly special result. Can I ask you, because obviously, you've been involved in the sport. I mean, every world's an Olympics since 1994 is just absolutely incredible. The sport must have changed, where it has changed a huge amount over that period. What's your take on the sport today compared to how it was back here in the early '90s when you first started at top level? - Yeah, so I mean, obviously when you talked about it, at Atlanta Olympics, we had to carry lead. If you had to be, I think it was 175 pounds or more. So there's lots of different rules. Obviously there's a steeple chase and roads and tracks right through to Sydney. The flying change then came in. And obviously, then we have the two show jumping now. And this standard has risen immensely, virtually in all phases. And I think the sport's getting better and better. I mean, I think the key for it to stay that way is that we've got to have exceptional cross-country course designers and for us to stay relevant in the equestrian sport world, that cross-country needs to stay, be able to stay dominant without being hurting too many horses or people or whatever. And I think what we do in the dressage is not even comparable to the straight dressage and what we do in the show jumping is not even comparable to the straight show jumping, but it doesn't matter who you are or what sport you are, when they walk across country, whether it's show jumping people, dressage people or just everyday non-horse people there. So taken by the cross-country and inspired by what these horses can do and so impressed. And I think our sport will always stay strong if we have the good designers and people that are prepared to keep that cross-country like that. And I don't think the courses have to be too, too long anymore. I love going to Burley and riding that course, but I'm not sure that we need to have too many of those. And so having more emphasis on good jumping, accelerating, being able to go quick, certainly we've got to have some endurance out of it, but I'm not opposed to it making it a bit softer on that part of it, so it's not as long. And I think the images of having really, really tired horses and that kind of stuff is not good for any of us. But having said that, we want to have a thoroughbred type of horse too, it'd be a shame if it went the other way and everybody's going around on a big, heavy, well, that quad-style type horses too. So there's somewhere in between where you have that really athletic galloping horse, but we make it so there's good images coming from us as well. - I think that's a really valid point. And actually leads me on to my next question of what you look for in a horse today. Is that what you looked for in a horse 20, 30 years ago? I know that you're a big fan of thoroughbreds and particularly retraining from race horses and having sort of a second career in that perspective. Do you still look for the same sorts of things in a horse today as you did before? Or have you adapted to this sport? - Well, I'm always trying to adapt, you know, certainly, you know, I think to a degree, horses nearly have to be a bit faster nowadays with the horses. And so, you know, having a fast horse is important, but it's not having a fast horse is not just down to a horse, a gallops fast. Like, you know, you can have an efficient kind of horse on cross country that turns very quickly. It doesn't need, you know, slowing down too much coming to the jump, et cetera. And so, you know, as a lot goes into that, you know, one of the greatest things about eventing is that you can train the horses. You know, I would say 98% of horses really like the cross country. And, you know, you can really train the horses to become better moves. You can train the horses to jump a bit better, you know, and to a degree, you know. So certainly, they're born with certain gifts and all that. But, you know, there is training to it. Like, I don't really think if you're, want to be a Grand Prix dressage or Grand Prix show-jumping, that, you know, you've got to have a horse that God's given a pretty good gift to be at that level. Whereas in eventing, you know, they can, I'm not saying average, but they don't have to be special in anything, but they do have to be able to accept the training. And it's amazing to me, you know, that some of the best horses that I've had are ones that have stood up to and stayed sound and are able to accept the training and don't have breaks and, you know, have to give them time off all the time for injuries. And so, you know, I really, and that's a part of the sport that I do enjoy, which is, you know, bringing the horses along and seeing their improvement and seeing them go from level to level and, you know, improving the way they jump, the way they move and et cetera. So, you know, I think I don't necessarily try to pick a breed of horse, you know, obviously it's got to look, it's got to have a thoroughbred way about it, you know, so that it's, you know, can move away and gallop nicely. But, you know, horse, it's got a pretty sensible nature, which, you know, is helpful. And, you know, again, something that's got confirmation and toughness that's going to stand up to it is some of it, sounds very simple, but a lot of stuff you can train into the horse, you know. - Yeah, and actually staying sound and being trainable is when a lot of top riders talk about the best horses that they've ever had, they are two qualities that tend to stand out throughout there. - And you've obviously achieved an enormous amount in your career. How do you keep learning? Where or who do you look to for inspiration now? - Well, I mean, I'm still learning all the time and I mean, it's still a long way to go. But, you know, obviously one of the great advantages of this country, there are some incredible teachers in the specialized disciplines like dressage and the show jumping, so that's kind of fun to, mix it up with those guys because, you know, like I mentioned before, there's always another level for us because, you know, we're compared to what they're doing, our horses are, you know, still not near as far as where they go. So it's kind of, it's fun to work with that and to be trying to take each horse towards the level. And, you know, it's good having people get to know each horse and what works in the warm up and what you need to work on at home, et cetera. And then, you know, the cross country is probably not trying to sound cocky, but it's always something that's kind of a bit natural to me. So I haven't had that much help with the cross country, but trying to get the horses faster is important and learning how to get them fast without them getting, you know, too crazy from it. You know, so my, probably school cross country more than I ever did. And Eric's been helping me a bit with that. And that's been helpful, actually, you know. So I never had that much help on the cross country, but I've had a little bit more lately. And I say that, you know, I've picked up on things that I can put in my toolbox and use it. So it's been helpful. - Always useful to have more tools. - Yeah. - Is there anything looking back on your career that you think, God, do you know what I wish I'd done? That differently, or if you could go back and do it again, you would change it. - Well, I mean, I think every day you ride or every week you look back and you think, "Oh, God, I know so much more now." And so, you know, I'm not somebody that looks back and sort of rehashes things too much. Certainly some of the horses that I've had, I know I could have done a better job with them if I had them now, you know. And obviously, mighty nice is, you know, one of the best ones I had, I did probably the most talented horse that I ever had was a horse called Woodburn, who was a New Zealand thoroughbred. And he actually ended his life a bit early with a pastor, actually, that I would die to have that horse over again and have my time with him because I think I could manage and done a better job than I did with him. Not that he was, you know, he did well. He was, I think he was second at Kentucky and actually was second at Burley and then didn't get to try it up on the last day, which is unfortunate. But, you know, I guess just looking back, I think, you know, probably the ways that I could have improved those horses better. But, you know, it's always a balance of how much, you know, you've got to, I sort of come to this country and I didn't have anything, you know, had to work and just had the horse. And so, you know, a lot of the time goes into, you know, just getting things going and it takes time to get a team behind you and people that want to support you. And so, it's kind of a life job, you know, to, you know, and it's interesting to me because we're talking about either where the country goes and picking out people, you know, like, and you can have a young rider that's got a great horse, but that's kind of one part of it, you know, like it's the whole part of getting the team and having the personality and being able to pick out the horses and getting people behind you and having a plan and being able to get the horses fit and keep them sound. And, you know, there's so much goes into, it's a life challenge. It's a life job to learn it all. And that's, you know, so I'm now, I'm kind of enjoying because I've put all that work into it and obviously getting towards the end of my career as well. But it's been rewarding to sort of see it all grow. It's not just my riding, but, you know, the whole putting it all together and trying to make it all work. And then obviously the next level is our daughter is, she likes to ride as well. So she hopefully can benefit from what we've started, what even I have started. And then, you know, we have obviously other students and riders that are coming along that can help as well. - Can I ask you then, you're obviously enjoying it now. Tokyo is 2021, which I believe is a target, but there's LA in 2020, is that an inkling or possibility, do you think? - Yeah, I mean, Tokyo. And then I think it's Paris, isn't it? - Paris in '24, yeah. - Yeah, sure, I don't know about home games. - I'm tempting you here, I'm tempting you. - Yeah, I mean, I'm curious through that, I don't know. So I'm just going to keep going. I've got a couple of nice horses coming along and I don't want to go out there and embarrass everybody, but then if I'm riding well, well, you know, I can keep going, I still enjoy it. You know, there's obviously when you do, there's a huge commitment, not just on my behalf, but you know, your family's behalf and everybody else, you know, financial time, financial commitment, time commitment, you know, you miss a lot of stuff like holidays and family. So, you know, it's not just the case that me, you know, they're able to jump the jumps and all that, you know, a lot goes into whether I'm still want to do it badly, you know, it's got to be, I don't want to go there and be half-hearted, like I've got to have, you know, zero in focus on that's all and that's all it counts, you know. So at the moment, yes, I think, you know, we'll see my head for Tokyo and then we'll just see. I mean, you know, if the horses are there and then I'm still inspired to do it, well, then I don't see any reason why not. - Watch this space. And we're familiar, I know a lot of listeners will be familiar with a lot of your top horses, but if there's a younger horse in your yard that our listeners could perhaps pick out to follow for the next few years in their career, can you give us one name to watch? - There's one horse that might keep me going. - Okay, okay. - Is that a four-year-old? He's called Lincoln's Address. And so I'm not sure if he's got a big line or Olivia's, but he's actually a full thoroughbred by Union Rags and Jack had to, you know, put too much pressure on him, but at this stage, he's looking like he can move and he's a really good jumper and obviously being a thoroughbred fast and he's really, really quiet. And so he's nice. I've got a horse from Germany called Quasi Cool that come from Dijkstrada. He's looking good. And then obviously has he and Sonhill Singapore. And then I have another one that we got last year called Couch and it looks, you know, he's a really nice horse as well. So this, you know, we've got some nice up-and-coming horses and hopefully we can bring along some more as well. - The first one you mentioned that's a four-year-old now, just saying would be 12 come L.A. Just gonna put that one out on that. Just a note on Carlton because I actually think some of our listeners would hunt me down if I didn't ask you because he was enormously popular over in the UK when he was competing over here. He's been with you for a year or so now. What's the plan with him? Obviously, COVID has kind of blown everybody's plans out of the water, but what would be the plan with him for the short term? - Well, unfortunately, he had him and I ran into events and he got ahead of small injury. And so he had to back off and put him out of work and he's back in work now and ready. And I'm hoping to do an event at the end of this, you know, another month or so with him and see where it goes. But, you know, we bought him to try to have him ready for Tokyo and then as it turned out, you know, got injured and so it's, we'll just have to see. I don't want to hurt him again. So I'm just going to get him really, really fit and we'll see what he, you know, where he's at next year. But if it's not next year for Tokyo, you know, then he's still got some, hopefully he might be the one that I can win that five star on. He's so cool horse. - Watch this space. Phillip, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to us. It has been absolutely fascinating to look back at your career and look forward to the future with you as well. - Yeah, thank you. It's my pleasure to be on Nicole. - It's been a delight. Phillip Dutton on the Echo Ratings Eventing Podcast. Listeners, we hope you've enjoyed this very, very special episode. If you did enjoy it, then we would love it if you could give it a like or a share because it really does make a difference. That is all we've got time for, Phillip. A huge thank you and we'll be back very soon with another episode of the Echo Ratings Eventing Podcast. Hi, Sarah from Foreign Equine here. Do you compete your horse? If so, here are a couple of essential supplements that you should have on hand. Firstly, pre-fuel, available as both a liquid and a handy gel syringe. It is designed to support energy and muscle function by providing energy in the form of glucose, branch chain amino acids and B vitamins and secondly, refuel, again available as both a liquid and a gel, which is formulated to be given after competition or intense exercise to support recovery and rehydration. It contains a powerful combination of highly concentrated levels of essential electrolytes which are lost through sweating, especially in warm weather and B vitamins to stimulate appetite. Anti-oxidants are also included in the gel to further support recovery, meaning you can look forward to your next competition.
