In this episode of "How to Protect the Ocean," host Andrew Lewin dives into the intricate world of fisheries management, focusing specifically on tuna fishing. Joined by Dr. Victor Restrepo from the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation (ISSF), the discussion revolves around the recently released report titled "Snapshot of Large-Scale Tuna Per Seine Fishing Vessels." Andrew and Victor explore key topics such as the current state of tuna fishing, the number of fishing vessels in operation, and the countries they represent. Victor shares insights on the surprising stability in vessel numbers, expressing both concern over the lack of decrease and hope for future improvements in fishing practices. Tune in to learn what types of tuna are sustainable to eat and how we can all contribute to better ocean health through informed choices.
Website: https://www.iss-foundation.org/
Tuna Fishing Annual Report: https://www.iss-foundation.org/about-issf/what-we-publish/issf-documents/issf-2024-05-a-snapshot-of-the-large-scale-tropical-tuna-purse-seine-fishing-fleets-as-of-june-2024/
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The number of large-scale tuna purse seine fishing vessels has remained relatively stable over the years, consistently hovering around 650 vessels. This stability indicates a balance between fishing capacity and resource availability, which is essential for sustainable fisheries management.
Dr. Victor Restrepo, an expert in tuna fisheries management, noted that while the number of vessels has experienced slight fluctuations, there have been no significant increases or decreases. Over the past 12 years, the count has remained within the range of 640 to 670 vessels. This consistency is particularly noteworthy given the high operational costs associated with these large vessels, which can carry over 400 tons of tuna per trip and can cost between $30 to $40 million when fully equipped.
Several factors contribute to the stability in vessel numbers:
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Economic Considerations: The substantial investment required to build and maintain these vessels means that potential operators must carefully weigh costs against expected returns from fishing, which may limit the number of new entrants into the industry.
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Resource Limitations: Tuna fisheries are governed by quotas and regulations established by Regional Fishery Management Organizations (RFMOs). These regulations help ensure that fishing efforts do not exceed sustainable levels, maintaining a balance between the number of vessels and the available tuna stocks.
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Conservation Measures: Organizations like the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation (ISSF) play a vital role in promoting sustainable practices within the industry. The ISSF has implemented conservation measures that restrict the construction of new vessels unless older ones are scrapped, helping to control fishing capacity.
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Market Demand: While the demand for tuna, particularly in the sashimi market, remains high, there is an increasing preference for sustainably sourced products. This shift in consumer behavior encourages fishing companies to adopt sustainable practices, influencing their operational decisions regarding fleet size.
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Monitoring and Compliance: The presence of observers on purse seine vessels, especially in tropical tuna fisheries, ensures compliance with regulations and helps monitor bycatch. This oversight can deter illegal fishing practices and promote responsible management of tuna stocks.
In summary, the relatively stable number of large-scale tuna purse seine fishing vessels reflects a complex interplay of economic, regulatory, and market factors. While this stability is a positive sign for sustainable fisheries management, ongoing efforts are necessary to ensure that tuna populations remain healthy and that fishing practices continue to evolve in response to environmental and market demands.
Understanding Tuna Fisheries Management
Tuna fisheries management is a complex and multifaceted issue involving various stakeholders, including scientists, fishing companies, processing companies, and regulatory bodies. In a recent episode of the "How to Protect the Ocean" podcast, Dr. Victor Restrepo from the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation (ISSF) provided valuable insights into the current state of tuna fisheries, the challenges they face, and the efforts being made to ensure sustainability.
The Importance of Tuna Species
Tuna is a significant fishery resource, comprising three main species of bluefin tuna and 23 stocks of major commercial tunas. Although bluefin tuna accounts for only 1% of the total catch, it generates 99% of the media attention due to its high market value, particularly in the sashimi market. An individual bluefin tuna can fetch prices as high as $70,000 to $100,000, leading to illegal fishing and overfishing in the past. However, since 2009, management practices have improved, and many stocks are showing signs of recovery.
Fishing Methods and Bycatch Concerns
The primary method for catching tuna is purse seining, where a large net encircles a school of fish, allowing for significant catches. While this method is efficient, it has raised concerns about bycatch, particularly in the Eastern Pacific Ocean, where dolphins often associate with tuna schools. The podcast highlighted the importance of distinguishing between different fishing practices and their impacts, noting that not all tuna fisheries face the same challenges.
Regulatory Framework and Challenges
Tuna fisheries are managed by Regional Fishery Management Organizations (RFMOs), which are responsible for setting quotas and regulations. However, a significant challenge arises from the fact that many vessels are authorized to fish in multiple RFMOs, complicating global management efforts. Dr. Restrepo expressed frustration over the lack of a unified system to manage fishing capacity across different regions, which can lead to overcapacity and increased fishing pressure.
The Role of ISSF and Market Influence
The ISSF plays a crucial role in promoting sustainable tuna fishing practices by collaborating with processing companies to implement science-driven conservation measures. These measures aim to reduce bycatch, limit the use of harmful fishing gear, and ensure that new vessels are not added without scrapping older ones. The podcast emphasized the importance of market demand in driving these changes, as processing companies are increasingly committed to sourcing tuna from sustainable fisheries.
Consumer Awareness and Action
One of the key takeaways from the episode is the role of consumers in promoting sustainable fishing practices. By becoming more knowledgeable about tuna fisheries and making informed purchasing decisions, consumers can support responsible fisheries and encourage better practices within the industry. Dr. Restrepo highlighted that education is the first step, and consumers can reward fisheries that are doing well while avoiding those that are not.
Conclusion
Tuna fisheries management is a complex issue that requires collaboration among various stakeholders, including scientists, regulatory bodies, and the fishing industry. While there have been significant improvements in management practices and the recovery of certain stocks, challenges remain, particularly regarding overcapacity and bycatch. Organizations like the ISSF are working to bridge the gap between science and industry, promoting sustainable practices that benefit both the environment and the economy. As consumers, we have the power to influence these practices through our choices, making it essential to stay informed and engaged in the conversation about tuna fisheries and ocean conservation.
Consumer awareness and education play a crucial role in promoting sustainable fishing practices, particularly in the context of tuna fisheries. As highlighted in the podcast episode with Dr. Victor Restrepo, informed consumer choices can significantly impact the fishing industry by rewarding responsible fisheries and encouraging better management of tuna stocks.
The Importance of Consumer Knowledge
Dr. Restrepo emphasizes that education is the first step toward making informed decisions about seafood consumption. When consumers understand the complexities of tuna fishing, including the various species, fishing methods, and the environmental impacts associated with them, they are better equipped to choose sustainably sourced products. This knowledge empowers consumers to support fisheries that adhere to responsible practices, thereby incentivizing those fisheries to maintain sustainable operations.
Rewarding Responsible Fisheries
By opting for tuna products that are certified as sustainable or sourced from fisheries that follow best practices, consumers can create a demand for responsible fishing. This demand encourages fisheries to adopt better management strategies, such as reducing bycatch and adhering to quotas. As Dr. Restrepo notes, the involvement of processing companies that prioritize sustainability has led to significant changes in the industry. These companies often require their suppliers to meet specific conservation measures, which can include 100% observer coverage on fishing vessels, as seen in the Indian Ocean.
Encouraging Better Management of Tuna Stocks
The podcast also discusses the role of organizations like the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation (ISSF) in promoting science-driven management of tuna stocks. The ISSF works with processing companies to implement conservation measures that not only protect tuna populations but also enhance the overall health of marine ecosystems. When consumers support these initiatives through their purchasing decisions, they contribute to a larger movement that advocates for sustainable fisheries management.
Conclusion
In summary, consumer awareness and education are vital for fostering sustainable fishing practices. By making informed choices, consumers can reward fisheries that operate responsibly and encourage the adoption of better management practices for tuna stocks. As the podcast illustrates, the collective efforts of consumers, processing companies, and organizations like the ISSF can lead to meaningful change in the fishing industry, ensuring that tuna remains a viable resource for future generations.
Today's episode is going to be focused on fisheries management. So we're going to find out about tuna folks. It's going to be a really great episode to say, hey, look, what's going on with tuna fishing? Should we be eating tuna? Should we not be eating tuna? What type of tuna? Should we be eating? How many species are fished? We're going to find out all about that because we have Dr. Victor Restrepo, who is from the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation, the ISSF, they've just released a report called Snapshot of Large Scale Tuna Persane Fishing Vessels or Fleets that just came out in June 2024. I've been working with them to get a podcast episode out to talk about sort of the number of vessels that have changed, you know, how many are out there, where they're from, what country they're flying. So you're going to hear all about fishing and just the intricacies of fishing and what needs to be monitored and what needs to be done to actually get a better fishing overall. And Victor is on the podcast to talk about that. We talk a lot about things like what he thinks should happen, how many, how surprised he's that there hasn't been a really increased in vessels, but also he's kind of disappointed there hasn't been a decrease in vessels. It's going to be really cool to hear all about tuna fishing. So that's what we're going to do today on today's episode. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And on today's episode, just like a lot of our other episode, knowledge is power. You're here to find out how you can protect the ocean. That's why I named the podcast the way it's named. And we're going to find out, we're going to find out how to protect the ocean when it comes to tuna fishing and tuna fisheries in general. Dr. Victor Restrepo is on the podcast today. He's been involved in tuna fisheries management from 1992 to the present day. He knows a ton about the industry. He's seen how these regional fishering management areas or organizations have been set up and what they need to do to make them better. He has a lot of knowledge and experience within the tuna fishing industry and science. And we're going to be hearing all about the science and kind of what he sees where the industry needs to go to really help and how processing companies, like tuna processing companies are really at the forefront of helping make science part of fisheries management more and more and more. So we're going to talk all about that today. I'm really, really excited for you to hear this interview. And if you want, I'm going to be putting up links to the report. I'm going to put links to the organization so that you can get more information on the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation. But in the meantime, here is the interview with Dr. Restrepo talking about the report snapshot of large-scale tuna persane fishing fleets. It's a really long title, but it's a great report and it's a great interview. So enjoy and I will talk to you after. Hey, Victor. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about tuna fishing? I definitely am ready, Andrew. Let's do it. Right on. Let's do this. This is going to be a lot of fun. I'm really looking forward to this. We're going to be talking about a specific report here with you, Victor, that came out in June of this year of 2024. It's called snapshot of large-scale tuna persane fishing fleets. This is going to be a really interesting report, just kind of an update on what's happening with the tuna fishing. So we're going to get an update on a number of vessels that are there, how much is actually being taken, what kind of conservation measures are there that's going to happen and happening right now. It's going to be really great. I'm really, really excited for it. But before we get into that, Victor, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do. Okay. My name is Victor Restrepo. I have a PhD from the University of Miami on stock assessment methods. And I have been involved in tuna science since about 1991. I have a lot of experience in the U.S. government with NOAA at the University of Miami and also internationally in the so-called tuna regional fishery management organizations or RFMOS in short. Right. I've been involved with them for the last, since 1999 or so. Okay. So you've seen quite a lot of changes over your time, you know, during this time. Tuna fishing has been, you know, it feels like it's been going up and down. This is not me citing any data or anything like that, but it just feels in the news like sometimes they're on, there's some tuna fish, they're on the brink of extinction, other times they're doing well. Can you kind of give us like a little bit of a snapshot over your time, what you've seen in terms of tuna fishing in general. I know there's a lot of species and I know that's kind of a loaded question to ask, but there's sort of just the trends that you've seen over that time. Yeah, no, I think that's an excellent question, Andrew. Bluefin tuna, there are three species of bluefin tuna and in 23 stocks of major commercial tunas and they account for only 1% of the catch, but they account for 99% of the noise. Okay. Interesting. Okay. So a lot of the words, when you hear the word extinction or something like that, it's usually a bluefin tuna stock that the media or whoever is talking about and they have been overfished in the past because bluefin tuna in the social market is one of the most expensive fishes, you know, and individual bluefin could cost $70,000 or $100,000. So they have been the subject of illegal fishing and very, very high fishing pressure, but I have seen that turn around since about 2009. There have been major changes in the management of the bluefin tuna stock in the world and I would say that the situation is not totally, you know, out of danger completely, but all of the stocks have turned around one way or the other and the catches are growing and the stocks are getting healthier. Interesting. That's really interesting. So, and you've been, you've been a part of this for quite some time, you know, in different, when you were working for NOAA, were you just working on American species? Because I know with NOAA, they tend to work with other countries internationally, like in the Pacific. I know that they look at, you know, with sharks, they look at different sort of regions with like RMOs, RMOs, RMOs, they look at different RMOs like in the Pacific. Is that the same thing with tuna when you worked with NOAA or was that one locally? No, it was just like that, but it was more in the Atlantic. So, there are five tuna or epivores, there are two in the Pacific, one in the Atlantic, one in the Indian Ocean and one in the Southern Hemisphere. Okay. Okay. And I used to work for the Atlantic one, both in the Secretariat and with NOAA as a U.S. scientist that came to the meetings. Gotcha. And that was more like, that was just not, you know, one species of bluefin. It was like all the tuna that were, that were involved there, right? Right. Okay. And for, from a, from a term of fishing gear, what is the, can you just explain to the audience, you know, how tuna are typically fished, like commercial? Yes. The, the major fishing method for, for all tunas is persaining and this is basically about that makes a set around the school of tunas and they close the bottom of the net, that's the purse, and then they hold it out and take the catch. And the majority of the catch by persaders is of so-called tropical tunas. There are three species, skipjack tuna, big-eyed tuna, and yellowfin tuna. And if you like to eat tuna in a can, chances are it was caught by porcelain. Okay. On a few occasions, they are caught by log liners, which are baited hooks. Right. But that's really only for albacord tuna. Most of the tropical tunas are caught by porcelainers. Okay. Okay. Now with, with persaining, from my understanding in the past, and again, I'm not so familiar with this subject, man, which is why I'm happy to have you back, I'll have you on. My understanding is that persaining in the, in, in some cases have allowed other animals to get in as by catching, in particular dolphins. There are, there are, now when you look at a can, it says dolphin free, you know, tuna catching. Let me just talk a little bit about how that all came to be and, and sort of what's the status of persaining when it comes to bycatch and catching other animals. All, all tuna fishing ears have some level of bicatch, maybe not harpooning or something like that, that is very, very specific, but everything else takes bicatch. And in fact, log liners fisheries take a lot more bicatch than persian fisheries do. Right. And the mix of species that they take is different. When it comes to dolphins, this is really a phenomenon that mostly happens in the Eastern Pacific Ocean, where dolphins associate with tuna and the two schools kind of mix together. Oh, I see. And there are some person vessels, not US vessels, you know, from some other flags that are very good at spotting the dolphins from very far away using helicopters and other signs. And they know that if they find dolphins, they'll find tuna. So they catch both and they let the dolphins go, although some of them die, sometimes, and then they keep the tuna catch. But that's really only in the Eastern Pacific Ocean. It's not a practice that occurs commonly anywhere else. Okay. It seems as though, you know, when we, you know, and again, I hear this from the media a lot of the time. So it seems like we talk about, you know, tuna fishing and we talk about, you know, overfish stocks. We talk about the whole dolphin issue that happens. It seems like a lot of times that gets grouped in with all tuna fishing, you know, from the people who consume it or people who are talking about it because they get it confused with, you know, Eastern Pacific fishing where you have, you know, dolphin associations and then, you know, just a small percentage of the total catch of tuna is bluefin tuna and you're just like, hey, that's not even that much. And it's, you know, it's very small. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it gets so confusing with, you know, when we talk about the communication of this type of data? Well, things are complicated and one of the things that we try to do in ISSF is to explain complicated things in ways that are easier to understand, but I have to admit that I don't think we could ever explain something in one sentence because it's not, not such a thing. But, but, but news are very easy to say in one sentence. It's very difficult to, to describe something that is quite complex in just a few words, but if you, if you put it as bad news, it's, it's quite easy. So it's not too bad. It's difficult to, you know, we face all of the time. Thank goodness. We have very, very good communications people working with us. So I'm a scientist, I'm a little bit complicated myself. I try to simplify things as much as I can, but I can only go so far. And then our communications people are just magnificent at taking, you know, where I, where I leave it and taking it to the next step in, in simplifying it with infographics or other means. Yeah, I feel, I, I completely agree with you. I feel when it comes to communication, it can be very difficult to sort of separate the, the ifs and the buts from our results, you know, as, as scientists, you know, you have these scientists, but then there's these, there's always a caveat and there's always, you know, something else. And there's always some external sort of force coming in to make it even more complicated and stuff. So I think it's, it's, it's really interesting and I completely agree with you. It's never an easy by line to just put out being like, hey, Tuna are doing great or Tuna are not doing so great and so forth. So I think that's, that's really insane. With that said, we're talking about this report snapshot of large scale tuna persane fishing fleets. Now this is like a fleet that's, that's monitored in a report. I understand one came out in 2023 in June and this one came out in June, 2024. So this is an annual report that looks at the, this type of commercial fishing. Is that correct? Yes, we have updated that report 12 times altogether. So we started it in 2012 or something like that. Okay. So each year we look at the, well, we use different sources of data. Right. One of them is the list of vessels that are authorized in every area of the mall. Okay. But we also use other types of information and a lot of changes happen between one year and the next when it comes to vessels. They change flags, they change names, they change the radio call sign, they change many things. So there are oceans and so on. And so we keep track of that. There are also some vessels that sink, some that are scrapped, some new ones are built and so on. So our job is to make that snapshot around June every year with all the changes that happened. And what's the reason for vessels, obviously, you know, vessels that are scrapped and obviously you think that's dangerous is the danger of, of being in the ocean all the time. What would be the advantage or the reason for boats changing flags or changing countries where they originate from? Is it just they get bought over or what's the reasoning for that? I think in most cases, it's because they have more access to the resources because the particular country that they're relying to has, let's say, a quota or a number of fishing days that they, they can use to basically have a joint venture with a vessel order and then reflect the vessel. And so it's business convenience, I would say, in most of the cases. Okay, I got you. And now these are all legally registered vessels that you're, that you're looking at. You know, there are, there are cases of illegal fishing, but we're, this report focuses on the ones that you can track, the ones that you know are, are there. And the differences, you say there's, there's changes between, between like boats, the number of boats, the capacity and all that. So out of this year, let's say compared to last year, what were the major differences in the number of boats or the differences in the number of boats? I think that the number, but I don't remember all of the details of how, but I think that the numbers didn't change much. But there were a lot of studies, like there were additions and there were deletions and there was, you know, reflagging. But overall, they stayed around 650 vessels. Now we're talking about very large vessels. We're talking about vessels that can carry like more than 400 tons of, of tuna in a given trip. Okay. And usually they're vessels larger than 55 or 60 meters long. Right. They're not that easy to hide. They're not that easy to become illegal, you know. Right. Of course. They are monitored by different means. Yeah. They are insured. They're super expensive vessels. Yeah. One of those new vessels could cost 30 or 40 billion owners, you know, once it's fully equipped. Wow. Okay. And then plus the crew and everything like that, like you're looking at a fairly significant business operation happening with these vessels. Okay. And then now for the monitoring of, you know, to ensure that they're catching the right catch and so forth. Are there fisheries observers on these on these ships? On personers. Yeah. Every ocean for tropical tuna personers, which is what we're talking about in that report. Yes. There are observers 100% of the time on these vessels, except in the ocean. The ocean only requires 5% coverage, but most of the vessel owners have voluntarily agreed to 100% as well, in some cases, because the markets demanded not so much their regulations. Yeah. Gotcha. So there's like the people who they're selling to require 100% coverage. Exactly. For observers. Okay. That's good. That's good to hear. That's nice that they're going kind of above and beyond what they're supposed to. It's nice that other sort of lines within the supply chain are demanding that. So that's always, that's always nice. So what can you tell me about this report in terms of sort of results that you've seen, changes you've seen either from last year or that you've, that you've noticed that kind of stood out to you? Well, one of the things that I have noticed is frustrating because it hasn't changed. It's not so much about the change that I'm going to talk about, but I think that doesn't change. And that is that many of the vessels are authorized to fish in several RFMOS during the same year. They don't necessarily fish in several, in two or more RFMOS, but they are authorized to fish in two or more of the RFMOS. So it's difficult to envisage a system where that fishing capacity could be by much globally, because there are no restricted vessel records in each of the RFMOS, which is something that I find frustrating and it would be ideal if they could control the floodgates, let's say, of vessels that could move easily from one ocean to the other or one ocean side to the other. Because there's a period where you could have a number of vessels in one RFMOS instead of spreading them out over, like only restrict them only to certain RFMOS, because maybe there's more of a concentration of tuna in that area, is that what you're concerned about? Yeah, I'm concerned that there are too many pulsators already that can catch, I mean, the catch that they make, they could make easily with maybe half of the number of vessels that are out there. So it's not only an economic inefficiency, it's waste, and that over capacity is always a pressure point for fishing harder and fishing harder, that requiring more regulations, it's just making everything more difficult than I wish we could manage capacity globally in a meaningful way, but having these multiple resistors is not very useful. Yeah, I agreed. With that said, does each boat have a specific quota that they can catch? It depends on the RFMOS, some of them, the flag state usually has a number of fishing days assigned to them, or a quota assigned to them. And then it's that country that subdivides that catch quota or the number of fishing days into the different vessels that make up their fisheries. The systems are quite different in all of the oceans, they're perhaps a little bit more similar in the Indian Atlantic Ocean, but then everything else is much more different. Gotcha. Yeah. It's interesting too, because if you think about it, if one boat has access to a number of different RFMOS, then they can go into one, fish their quota, and then go back into another and fish another quota, and then if they can go to another, they can continue to fish, which almost kind of defeats the purpose of keeping catch limits, right? Yeah, I think it depends a lot on the flag state that has to regulate them, and the flag state has to decide if they do give them permission or not to move to different RFMOS during the same year, which I can't manage that internally, they will. They will, yeah. But because some vessels have access to a number of different ones, can one country that has control over that, or the countries that have control over their FMO, can they tell what the others have, what each boat has caught in other RFMOS, do they know that? If they belong to their flag, yes. If they belong to the flag, catch up. Otherwise, generally not. Generally, the catches are only known in the aggregate for an entire country, an entire country and fishing type. So you might know what the catch by US flag percentage was in the Western Pacific last year, but you will know what each individual vessel caught. Right. Because they could go over to the difference. How do we get a regulation, or how do we get countries to only allow their flagship to catch in one RFMO? How does that, where does that have to come from? I don't think that it necessarily has to happen like that. Okay. But I think it has to happen in an agreed management situation where all of the countries decide how to go about it collectively. So I don't think it's so much something that one individual country can accomplish. It's a collective effort. Got you. And are there committees or are there sort of collaborations where countries get together to talk about tuna catches? Only within an RFMO currently. Gotcha. That's what they do. Basically, the RFMOs have a scientific committee structure. And on top of that, they have a political decision-making structure. And that's basically all they do. But they cannot work between RFMOs at the same time, which several are referenced. They'll do it within one. That's interesting. So it's almost like they're just siloed into these different countries in RFMOs. Interesting. Okay. What else from that report stood out to you as you participated in it? Well, I'm surprised that the number of vessels has not increased a lot over these last 12 years. I mean, it has hovered around 640 to 670. Okay. All of this time. So that's good. You know, I wish that they had decreased somehow. But at least they have been more or less stable over time. And what do you think the reasons for that is, is it just, I mean, it's expensive to have these boats? Is it more of there's not enough catch out there? There's not enough interest out there. It seems like tuna's very popular. So what do you think the, like the reason why it hasn't ballooned out to above 270? I mean, I think I'm looking at numbers here, just found the numbers from last year, it was 650. This year was 652. So not much difference when you look at the, the range that you just mentioned. Why do you think it hasn't, you know, increased by so much? I think it's partly costs. It's partly limited resources. I mean, they have quotas in place or a limit in the number of days and so on. So I guess I'm not an expert in economics of fishing vessels, but that's, they must do the math and figure out that it's, you know, a tremendous investment for, for that type of activity. There are also regulations in place that are not necessarily from the RFMOs. Like, for example, ISSF has a number of conservation measures and one of them has to do with new fishing capacity, like new vessels being constructed without scrapping all vessels. So all of the, all of the processing companies that work with us, they are committed to only source tuna from poor sailors that meet the criteria of that conservation measure. So it's not only the RFMOs, it's also other conservation driven forces from the markets. Okay. Now, I probably should have asked this right at the beginning, but you know, you do work for the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation and it sounds like you guys are connecting the, the sort of the tuna fishing sort of industry with sort of the right guidance for, for tuna fishing in general or just seafood in general. Can you just talk about the, the purpose of the ISSF and, and sort of how it works within the market and, and how it's helped? That's a long question, but, but, but basically what we do is everything is science driven at some point, you know, sciences where we start and it has to do a lot with the status of the stocks and, you know, what conservation measures we can try to use to influence the fishing industry to reduce bycatch, to reduce other environmental impacts, to reduce the use of fish aggregating devices. These are something that the personers use a lot to, to attract to fish aggregating devices that are not biodegradable, for example, or that are in tungling. So we, we have a number of conservation measures that the participating companies that work with us are committed to follow. Now the conservation measures are adopted by the ISSF board, which is composed by a mix of different people, including scientists, people from environmental NGOs, people closer to the fishing industry and so on. So it's, it's a good spread of, of people that make those decisions and then the participating companies have to follow those, those conservation measures that we are not. Okay. Okay. And, and sort of how do you attract these, these companies? Like do you go out when, you know, do, do you have people within the organization that goes out and builds those relationships with the different companies within the industry? These are processing companies that we're talking about, not fishing companies. Sorry. Processing companies. Yeah. And, and the universe of processing companies is not huge compared to the universe of fishing vessels. Gotcha. So, okay. It's, it's about, it's about smaller universe and basically I understand that when ISF was born, I wasn't there back in 2008 or 2009. There was already a group of processing companies that were very much aligned in saying we need the RFMOS to pay more attention to the science and things to be more scientifically sound. So I think that coalition already existed back then with a large number of companies. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really interesting. I've been getting involved in, you know, people have been coming to me for, to share stories or I've seen stories online that I've wanted to cover on, on the podcast. And it's, it's very interesting when a new issue has a, has arisen, you know, that people are discovering and they're researching and, and so forth and they're trying to put, you know, some together, trying to have like a call to action together. The first thing I look for is like, is there anybody out there that's part of the industry that's willing to, you know, stand up and, and, and have these values where they want to protect whatever they're, like in, in your case, it would be the processors that want to protect the fish that they're processing, they want to make sure it's sustainable for the years to come. Have these values where they get together, and as you mentioned before the ISS was born, they had these kind of commas are like, we need to do something better. Here comes the ISS F being like, Hey, we'll help you do that. We'll help you follow the science. We'll help, we'll help, you know, research and, and do the science on it so that you can make better decisions. How important for you as a scientist do you think it is when companies like the processors have these values that they want to be like, we need to follow the science more? How important is that to you as a scientist? It's very important. I have been involved, like I said, with our effort both for many, many years as a scientist, but then also going to the more political decision-making meetings. And over time I have seen a big change about who makes up the delegations of the different member countries to the RFI was. And when I first started, it was largely the fishing industry themselves. And the RFMOS are all about flag state responsibilities. So they were very directly linked to whatever activities were going to be managed. And over time I have seen a lot more involvement from the processing sector and even from the marketing sector. And now you have in the RFMOS you have letters that are signed requesting the commission to do something, adopting how risk control rules or other types of management measures that are more modern. And these letters are signed by 120 or 150 different groups, including processors and fishing associations and environmental NGOs, people from universities. So it's really amazing how the advocacy has changed over time. That's awesome. That's great to hear. Now obviously we still have a lot of work to do in terms of conserving these wonderful fish and just making sure that everything, you know, all stakeholders are included and there's a lot more voices at the table. Where do you see the industry moving in the future? Do you think, are you optimistic about tuna fishing in the future based on how things have changed so far and who's involved at the decision-making level and who wants to be involved? Are you optimistic of the future or do you still think we have a ton of work to do or a little bit of both? Well, the ton of work will never go away, fisheries management is a very tedious thing and it's complicated like we were talking about before. But there are more players on the table now. Before it was all the RFM members and what they could do as flag states. Now you have other things, you have other pressure points like the case of ISSF or you have fisheries that want to be certified by the Marine Stewardship Council, for example. Yes. And that's another way of bringing change about and in fact the Marine Stewardship Council requirements have pushed the RFM to make a lot of changes so that the regulations fit within the MSC system in a better way. It's not just the RFM members that are working at it at home now, there's a series of activities ongoing at the same time. And let's be honest, better guidance. You have more people at the table, you have a lot more experts at the table that are looking at various angles of fisheries management which we know is a big deal and so it's nice to see that we're getting more and more people involved, better guidance for different aspects of the industry and so we can move forward in a great way. One thing that I always ask sort of at the end as we talk about large sort of management decisions is how can people, I have people in my audience who want to help the ocean. That's why they come to this is how to protect the ocean. How do you think people, individuals can get involved within the industry here and just kind of help out, is it more of supporting the organizations that are involved, getting more awareness involved, like what would you recommend, like if somebody asked you just off the street, how can I help with tuna fishing, what's the best way they can do as individuals? Well, I would say that it's very important that we all become more knowledgeable about what's going on even if the facts are complicated. And I would say education is the first thing. Now if the person as a consumer wants to use that knowledge to make decisions about what tuna to purchase or what tuna to purchase, for example, that's one way of helping out. And hopefully rewarding the fisheries that are doing very well, their job and not rewarding the ones that are not such good actors. So I think at the consumer level, that's probably the best thing. And of course, if they're wealthy, they could contribute to organizations that are helping out as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Victor, this has been such an amazing time. I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to letting us know, giving us a lot of information about the report, but also about tuna fisheries in general, demystifying some of the things that I think we all think about. And it's just really nice to see the conservation work that you're doing along with the ISSF. And I look forward to having you back on the podcast to get more updates on tuna fishing. Thank you, Andrew. I'd be happy to. And I really thank you for your questions. They're all very good. Very nice. Thank you. Thank you, Victor, for joining us here on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to know that knowledge is power. I think it's so funny to be like it's so complicated to protect the ocean. We talked about the complexities with Victor. He says, you can't just do a one by line on a headline and just be like, this is how you protect tuna fisheries. No, it's really difficult. It's complex. There are a lot of complexities from managing different countries' interests, to managing different companies' interests, to managing different companies and different functions within the supply chain and everything. But it's been great to see how people have gotten more knowledge on these fisheries. And then they're able to contribute to the decision process. You know, at the beginning with these RFMOs, there was only tuna fishing boats. Now there are a lot of different companies that are involved. There is the Marine Stewardship Council that's involved. There's the ISSF that's involved. There's other NGOs that are involved. And so people who are supporting these NGOs give them the power and give them the opportunity to be at the table for these decision-making opportunities so that they can have an influence on how tuna fishing is measured. I think it was also interesting how Victor talked about dolphins and tuna fish and how some dolphins have been able to get into tuna fish. But that's only in one fishery or a couple of fisheries on the Pacific East Coast or the Eastern Pacific, sorry. So I think that's interesting to hear. And other tuna fishing, they don't have that problem because the tuna and the dolphins are not associated together. It's just in one particular part of the world. I think it's interesting how we saw fishing fleets in the Indian Ocean having 100% coverage of fisheries observers when they only needed 5%. But because the processing companies demand that they have 100%, now they do 100%. I think it's just interesting to show the influence that people have within the supply chain. And if your values are good and you want to be sustainable and you want to see this fishery happen for a long term, that you can have that. And it doesn't necessarily mean we have to shut down, a complete shut down of fishery as we can work within that and change. Unfortunately, change can be slow. And that's where we need to really put more pressure on the different suggestions that scientists have and that policy makers have to make sure those policies go through and we get a better managed fishery and a more sustainable fishery. So again, Victor, thank you so much for joining us. And I want to thank Taylor, who was their communications person who set this all up and reached out to me at the beginning of the summer to get this set up. I want to thank her as well. And I want to thank you for listening to this episode. I think it's a really interesting one. I think we're just kind of scratching the surface with this type of work. This is something I've been wanting to do for quite some time, bring, you know, to light these reports, this information so that you can make better decisions on how you want to protect the ocean. So I think that's, that's a, it's really fun to do. Anyway, if you want to leave a comment or have a question regarding this report or regarding this episode, you can do so, you can leave it on Spotify. Now they allow comments. You can go to YouTube because this video will be on YouTube and of course you can reach out to me on Instagram at how to protect the ocean, just at how to protect the ocean. All one word, just DM me. I'd love to hear from you. And of course, if you're listening to this on any podcast app, your favorite podcast app, just, you know, share it around with other people so that they can listen to this too. If they want to know how to protect the ocean, if they're asking that question, like, you know, how can I do this? I don't even know. It's so complicated. I don't know where to begin. This is the podcast. They really need to be listening to. So send them the link and let them listen, subscribe, follow, whatever you'd like to do. I think that would be great for me and it'd be great for you and it'd be great for the ocean. So thank you again for listening to this episode of how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host Andrew Lew and have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.
