(upbeat music) - Well then, it is National Coming Out Day and we're going to do a full podcast and try not to descend into chaos and fast. Or try to descend into chaos and fast because they're the best ones. - I promise anything. - I'm Emily Hamilton. I'm Deputy Chief Executive of Trans in the City and I am joined by my amazing colleague from Trans in the City, Eva Echo. - Hello. - Hello. - Great to be here. - Have you come out? - I've been out for a while now. To be fair, I wouldn't say I came out. It wasn't really a conscious choice and it's all thanks to Meta. So I was kind of experimenting. I was thinking, how do I go about this? I knew I wanted to come out at some point, but just not then. So this is going back to 2017. I finished touring the UK with a band, used to be a musician and I took that time out then to really think about who I am. And during that time, I thought, okay, I think I am trans, but how do I do it? And as you and I both know, there's no coming out handbook. There's no coming out 101 or anything like that. You just do what you can. So I changed my pronouns on Facebook and it was around the time that they started introducing pronouns. So I changed it thinking no one's going to notice. I don't really use Facebook anyway. And at that point, I already had Eva as my middle name because of a stunt that I did earlier on in my life. And yeah, I only tour my best friend and pippa my wife. But then more and more people latched onto this change of pronoun. They were sending me screenshots of my own profile with a question mark and I ignored it. And I just, yeah, I just thought they'll go away. But then my best friend basically said, you know what, you really need to get used to being you. Get rid of your old Instagram, create a new one and just put yourself out there. And I did. But thanks to Meta's algorithm, everyone who used to follow my old one before it was deleted was getting a thing saying, do you know this person? You might know them, follow them. So people were looking at it thinking, huh? So I was bombarded with messages and one day, I just thought, fuck, you know what? I'm just going to say something. And I literally did a Facebook post saying, hey, everyone, I'm rebranding change my profile picture and just sent them a link to my blog at the time, which had an FAQ, which had general, you know, does this mean you fancy me now? That sort of thing or, you know, just download, you stand up to P that usual rubbish. So I thought, you know what, let's just do it that way. So yeah, that's why I say I fell out because it wasn't, it wasn't a planned thing. It was just, why not? Well, let's just run with it. - Well, you're so smooth to do that. I, I, so I did the whole Facebook thing, but I had a completely separate profile. I didn't have the same surname. I was, I wasn't putting pictures obviously of myself up then. I loads of really cryptic sort of half pictures of my feet. Or all my legs in a car driving or something like that because, you know, I didn't want to do the connection because I wasn't ready. And like you, it wasn't a, it wasn't a plan. I mean, I think we'll come onto this that, you know, coming out isn't a one-time deal. I mean, certainly for me, it wasn't, wasn't my first rodeo. But, you know, when I came out, it was, it was, I mean, I was outed effectively. I had to ridiculously, an item of clothing was, was, was bound and it actually drove me into an attempting to take my own life because I thought everything was over. And I had, you know, I had all the, yeah, I don't, I had my sort of, my other identity. And it was all very, very much separate because I was really worried, like you said, of the old algorithm coming to call and somebody finding out this dreadful secret I'd been carrying for so many years. But, yeah, I mean, I tried to come out in 1987. I tried to come out in 2000. And then when I was sort of final coming out in 2019, which was, which was my go, it wasn't really a final coming out because you have to do it over and over and over again. So, you come out, well, you get, I'll get outed and then I'm going to come out to people I work with, my friends, you know, people I'm associated with in sort of clubs and things that I'm doing. You've got to find out how people will react. And I know that fear of reaction was one of the things that definitely kept me in the closet for a long time. You know, the 1987 edition was, you know, would I lose my home? Would I lose my family, my parents, you know, my place to live, that was, that was the big fear back then. But even, you know, I was 43, the thought I was going to lose friends, I was going to lose people I cared about, you know, that was, that was a real, that was a real closet motivator. But, I mean, you know, everyone's experience is different. I mean, yes, I lost, I lost things. I lost people coming out. Half fewer than I feared, if I'm honest. I mean, actually, the vast majority of people were A-OK and, you know, some of them were quite, quite excited by the prospect. But it's definitely better, it's definitely better out because I think, I mean, interesting, you said, you know, there's no sort of transition 101, the unfortunate thing is there's loads of them and most of them are completely irrelevant for anyone other than personally wrote them because we all have a different, we all have a different pathway. But I certainly know that what I swapped was massive internal anguish. I swapped mentally this, this drain of a hodge, really hiding my identity, even if it was ridiculous that nobody would know when I was hiding, 'cause I was really good at it, I was really careful. But the absurd thing was, you know, that I didn't realize how much mental capacity was being used of hiding my identity, hiding who I was. And I took that away with becoming out, you know, actually, that the weight being lifted was enormous and, you know, combined that with the genuine effects of HRT on a brain fog, I didn't even realize I had until we corrected it. You do exchange it for this sort of external factor, so the hate crime, the nonsense you face in public, the anxieties you get from anti-trans rhetoric and all of those things. But if I were to balance it, would I exchange what I face today with what I was facing with the internal anguish from before? I don't think I would. I genuinely, for me personally, and I will only ever speak for me personally, coming out was actually the best thing I ever did. It was the thing that saved my life. 'Cause that was my third attempt to end my life. My second attempt, rather, I should say, the third attempt, I'm sure I would be successful. And I didn't wanna put myself in a place where I was gonna be just thinking about that all the time. So, yeah, so, you know, I wanna put a down on it because actually, you know, genuinely, the self-comfort of being out is amazing. The community I've made and the friends I've made since I came out have been amazing. My wardrobe choices are amazing. You know, that's just for myself. - Well, yeah, you know, just every day of polo shirt and jeans, you know, that's no way to live your life. Men out there, that is no way to live your life. I just wanna tell you this. You don't have to be trans to know, polo shirt and jeans or polo shirt and ginos is no way to live. So you can come out of your own closet quite literally and dress better. But all of those things, you know, have been an amazing boost to me and having an opportunity with Trans in the City to advocate for our community makes a whole load of difference. And just, I mean, from your perspective, so, you know, I talked about the fact that for me, it was, that's on multiple comings out. Have you found the same or was it? Because you had that sort of big shot on Instagram in the same place, but was, was that it? Did that do the job for you? I think, I think that was, I think I was a bit naive to think that that would have done the job for me. I thought, okay, people are going to see it. People will know. And I was humbled because quite clearly, not everyone who was friends with me on Facebook pays any attention to my what I do and say on there anyway. So I was like, well, you know, those that saw it. - Got it, got it. - That's when I realized, yeah, my social reading meet at the time was just pitiful. And I guess it made me realize, well, the ones that haven't seen it, the ones that don't use Facebook, how am I going to tell them? And I think I was writing a blog at the time to really kind of externalize everything. And I think I came out more to strangers, complete strangers than people I actually knew because it was safer. Those strangers weren't going to judge me. If they didn't like me, I didn't know who they were really. And they didn't know who I was. We'd never saw each other again. But family and friends was different. It's almost like, you don't want to let them down. You've still got to want some, you still feel the need to please them and look after them and protect them. And my best friend, she was the first to know before my wife because I was at a point where I was suicidal. I had been in a really bad place for a long time, even before at all. And that's when I realized I'd spent most of my life trying, just trying to be someone that I couldn't be. And when I was speaking to my best friend about her and I told her, she got it straight away. And that was the first time for me that I realized I could be accepted. And then she spoke to me more about her. And yeah, it kind of gave me the courage to tell Pep. Admittedly, I did have a few vlogs because before telling Pep, I made the mistake of saying to her before we went to work, can I have a chat with you tonight? Which on hindsight, I know is shit because being back at school and someone said to me, "Can I see you after class?" I was like, "What the hell have I done?" So on hindsight, yeah, I put her through that worry all day, but then she had quite a bit of work to do. And I was downstairs in the music room and I thought, "Okay, how do I do this?" And I had a shot of vodka for the nerves, didn't work. So I thought, "Let's just have one more." And I think about four shots of vodka later, I kind of stumbled upstairs. But only because by that point, it dawned on me. I've been keeping her waiting all day. And I literally just went upstairs and just blurted out. I think there's something wrong with me. I think I'm trans. And she basically just said, "Yeah, I pretty much figured that out." There it is. And then, yeah, I was just, I was in shock, but it also dawned on me. I'd come out to my best friend. I'd come out to my wife then. I then subsequently came out on social media. Everyone I then met, I am coming out to. Even now, when I go and speak to clients or do a keynote here, and I say, "Hi, my name's Eve Echo, my pronouns issue." I'd just come out to them, I'm telling them. So I don't think we ever stop. It gets easier, I think, definitely gets easier. - I think that's right. It does get easier. And certainly, in my case, I'm very obviously very visibly trans. I'm a giant, I'm not bought into the concept of passing as a thing. I won't deny it would be easier and it would be nice sometimes just to blend in and just not be stared at, not be noticed. But I'm six feet, seven inches tall, right? So even before I was getting, people would observe me moving about, even in my chinos and my polo shirt. I found as well, when I was coming out, that I was apologetic to everyone. So I remember in the sort of the week, the week had all went a bit turbo. I, what I didn't want to happen was for people to find out from somebody else. I didn't want to be a subject of sort of gossip or, you know, the sort of behind the hand messaging and all the rest of it. So I resolved to go through the modern version of my little back book and go through my contacts list on my phone and yeah, not calling the numbers of like people like the driver I had when I went to work in India for a while. I didn't call him. I didn't think he needed to know. - Can you imagine though? - But his number stood in my phone just in case, you know, I've never ever in Chennai. But I found myself going through and I can remember. I was in London outside my office there and I was standing outside St. Pancry Station. I remember this and I'd come out. I hadn't socially transitioned. I was still, I was still still the old me and just apologizing to people to phone me one afternoon. I'm really sorry, I've got something I need to tell you. I'm sorry, I wasn't able to be honest with you. And I felt that terrible sense that I'd been dishonest with people by not being able to share who I was and it's taken me a while actually to realise it. So I said I have nothing to apologise for. I wasn't, it wasn't that I sort of made a Machiavelli in choice when I was younger that, you know, okay, I'm going to wait until I'm 43 and then, ah, my plan, you know, I picked you all here I am. It was very much a self-preservation limit. But I know lots and lots of people in the broader LGBTQIA community feel apologetic and they feel that they've let people down or they've, you know, they've disappointed people. I think you use that word. You know, see, you've got a great circle of friends in the community. Is that something you see as common as well? - Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that guilt, it's, I don't think it's guilt for who we are. It's guilt that we couldn't find the words to say to someone and almost for me, especially. I felt guilty that, especially with my wife, when we got married, you know, I made promises and I said, you know, like, I trust you 100% yet I couldn't tell her and be honest straight away. Like being with her has allowed me to kind of broaden my horizons, to kind of think of myself in a different right, which ultimately has kind of become a bit of a catalyst to me, actually taking the plunge and coming out. But yeah, we do apologize for being ourselves. And I guess that's some sort of, you know, just internalized guilt that we feel bad for being different. And because we're constantly told we are different and therefore we are bad. We take that and we think, well, in that case, I can't tell anyone because everyone has this idea of who we are, we've, you know, especially those of us that come out later on in life. You've built up this entire portfolio of a person. And to suddenly smash that, you know, I think guilt is right up there as, you know, one of those first emotions where you think, you know what? I've really messed up, but we haven't. And I think it's time we reframe that and it's not that I feel guilty. It's society wouldn't allow me. Society is too abusive. Society is still not accepting. Society didn't give me the space and the opportunity to come out sooner, you know, like when I wanted to and therefore I'm doing it now. And I think that's the more we look at it that way, the more we can really hold on to that for ourselves rather than coming out and still giving power away. - Yeah, I think that's true. And I think what's interesting is, is, you know, when we talk about pride month and we talk about pride as a concept and, you know, there's a whole lot of stuff about people's conversations and what they mean by pride. - The thing I love most about why we call it pride is it is the antonym of shame and guilt. And we're loaded up with shame and guilt. And frankly, those are killers. They kill people, you know, if you're living with shame, you're living with guilt about something so fundamental as who you are, you know, that's really corrosive. And it's not the, it's not just the moment. It's not just the moment of crisis where people are at that breaking point, it's the constant thinking. It's the everyday, it's the, how do I deal with this? And why am I like this? You know, those deep questions about, you know, what have I done wrong? You know, certainly, and I think you're a little bit younger than I am, but probably not much 'cause I'm not gonna go into that whole trans-older nonsense. But, you know, certainly when I was going through education, you know, Section 28 was flying high. I genuinely thought I was the only person in the world like me, you know, in terms of role modeling, in terms of, you know, people out there that you can say, like, yeah, look, that's me, that's not exactly me, but, you know, they're saying things which resonate with me. That was something which never previously existed. And you carry that weight, and you have to go back to what I said right up front, you know, that amount that you carry, that mental burden that you carry, you know, to me means that actually taking pride in who you are, and 365 pride, you know, all year round, that you get up in the morning, and even with all the stuff that's going on, you face the world as yourself, you know, and not having any secrets, not having anything anyone can use against you. So, you know, I'm not a big fan. A lot of community will sort of do those before and after pictures, and I've done a few, and I do them only for my own community to say, look, if I can do this, anyone can do this, 'cause, you know, I made all the excuses. I can't come out because I'm, you know, I'm too big. That's exactly what I was told by the psychologist in '87, you know, you're too big for this nonsense, you know, what's what's going on. You know, I was too hairy. I was, you know, too masculine. I was all of these things. And none of them were true, but they were the things that were in my head. They were the things, they were the expectations that were set for me. So, you know, that ability to come out was really important. And I want to come back to something because we think about sort of winding up, and I want to make sure that there is a message out here for people who might be listening to this. I think there are two types of people that I want us to reach. There's people in the community who are in the closet, who are maybe thinking on National Coming Out Day, "Oh God, I wish I could do that. I wish I had the strength to do that." I think we need to think about what our message is for them, but also for those people who are allies. So, you mentioned your best friend. Give her a name check. Who's our best friend? - Christine. - So, Christine, big up to Christine out there. I'm the, I'm become the Ali G of the podcast there. I'm gonna name Amy. So Amy was the person who saved me and was the first person I came out to and accepted me through who I was. And they've demonstrated as allies and as friends, what you can do. So people say to me, "What can I do to be a better ally?" And the first thing I always talk about is, is be ready for somebody to come out. If it hasn't happened to you yet, if you haven't been blessed with somebody coming out in any respect, so it could be trans, it could be any other part of our wonderful LGBTQIA community, be ready for it. So don't be caught on the hop. Don't be wondering, "Oh my God, what do I say? What do I say?" And then say something flippant, because one thing I will tell you is we never forget how people reacted when we came out. So if I think about all the people I came out to, there were those who were absolutely amazing and that is burned into my memory. There were those who clearly didn't know what to say but kept their counsel and I've appreciated that because then they were able to come back in slower time. And then there are those, unfortunately now, who I always remember, you know, how they behaved and they're no longer part of my life, you know. I remember coming out to somebody who'd been a good friend for many years, who was obviously taken aback, but then a few days later, effectively disinvited me from their Christmas open house because there would be children there and they were worried I would come dressed as a woman. And I've never forgotten that reaction to my coming out and, you know, it's a real shame. That's a friend I've lost. And it's meant I'm not able to do some things I used to do because it's affected a whole friend group. And so I would say my message to people who are allies, to the Christians and to the amies of this world is, you're amazing, you save lives, you are such a poor part of our community. So, you know, there is always a place for allies in our community. So be ready, I would say to people, think about what you're going to say when somebody does come out to you. And in the best possible way, don't be weird. I will say if they'll be weird. Weird is good in a way, right? We all like a little bit of weirdness in our life, but don't be weird, don't make a thing about it, don't-- - That's right. - It's not a deal. - It's hard with questions. It is just somebody trusting you with everything. And one of the best words to use is thank you. - Thank you for telling me, thank you for trusting me. And then remember the other thing I would say is that somebody coming out is, it's very private. It's the most private thing you've got to do in public, coming out and transitioning in our case. It's our story to tell. So don't, if somebody comes out to you, don't then think that you are the telegraph to tell everyone else, unless somebody specifically asked you. Any tips you want to offer to allies, you know, from that moment of coming out? - I don't, I mean, what you've said, I completely agree with. And I would like to add to that, it's a privilege. Like for allies, for us to come out to someone, of that person to know, we have chosen them. We feel safe, we're saying that we trust you completely. It's a privilege for those people to know, you know, so yeah, Christine, be grateful. But no, I think, yeah, it's a privilege. And I think, again, we need to reframe it. When someone comes out to you, they're choosing to tell you, they're not doing it out of guilt. They're not doing it for any other reason. They see you as a safe person. They see you as someone that, you know, will have their back. And ultimately, the Amy's and the Christians of the world, they have had our backs. I would also say, you know, when someone comes out to you, that's great, but let them lead, don't, you know, don't be like, well, why don't you do this, do this, do that, you know? Yes, I know sometimes people say that to be helpful, but that's giving it your pace. You've got to go at that person's pace. And everybody is different. And I think, you know, as well as be ready that anyone could come out around you at any point, be ready for the fact that you're going to be juggling, you know, someone's coming out, the flamboyant, they're out there, they're in your face, great. Someone else is taking it easy. They've got a lot of process. There's a lot of trauma wrapped up in their experience. Be patient with them. Don't try and micromanage them or try and explain how they feel to them. Just be there for them. And sometimes being there for them can be something so simple like going shopping with them. Just being there, you know, they, like when I came out, I wasn't saying, you know, come shopping with me 'cause my taste in clothing was awful. I mean, it's not the greatest, but it was more the comfort of knowing there was someone I could trust who had my back if someone then said, why are you in this changing room? Or, you know, what the hell are you? Get out. It's that protection. It's that comfort. So, you know, if someone says, do you want to come shopping with me? Do you want to come for a drink with me? It's a chance to get to know that person, you know, find out more. We've had a lifetime to come to terms with who we are inside of our own heads. So this is a chance for other people to go on that journey as well. You know, we can't expect them to just understand. So use that opportunity to get to know us. Yeah. - How can allies make it clear they're a safe person to come out to? Because that is a good question. It's, how do you know, you know, as I went through my book and I kind of, it's what we used to call in the military recon by fire. You know, you just go through it and when you get shot at, you know, you found the enemy, you know, and I mean, that's quite nerve-wracking. How can you demonstrate as an ally that you're safe to come out to? - I think these days with social media being so prevalent in our lives, you can do it in such a visual way. So, you know, you can physically say it in your bio. You could have pronouns. You could have pride flag, trans flag emojis. But I think it's the language you use because way before I came out, I'm listening to the way people talk about difference, about the queer community, about people of color, different marginalized groups. And I picked up on the language that certain people were using and I know to stay away from them. So using inclusive language, being careful of how you explain things, all that makes a difference. And that really is like a fundamental foundation to being a great ally. And to say to someone, you know, you can trust me. I understand in the same way that just using, you know, having pronouns on a service name badge in a restaurant, you see that instantly you relax. There's no conversation. There's no eye contact. You just see anything. You've got pronouns in your name badge. I don't have to spend this meal looking over my shoulder. I can go to the restroom, okay. I'm fine. That is great. That's a visual cue, but the way you talk and you interact with people is so important as well. And that's a chance to really get across the sort of person, the sort of ally that you are. What do you think? - It's cool. I absolutely agree. I think all of those options are open. And just so right, the performative stuff only works if you're doing stuff that sits with it. So yeah, I think the world has got very obsessed with sort of pronouns and, you know, as if that's the magic bullet in it, as if you put your pronouns on your email signature, then that's job done, done and dusted. It's no good having your pronouns in your bio if you're then spreading nonsense. If you're then saying, oh, well, you know, I've just got some concerns or all of those things, all those dog whistles that we know, it becomes nullified. So they're really good if they're, as you rightly say, they're associated with the way you live, the way your general demeanor, the way you're interacting with people around the place. So for those people who are in the closet, who are possibly thinking, okay, it's coming out time, what am I gonna do? I'm always very cautious about offering advice because we're all different. I think something you just said is the one thing I would say is that remember for us, we've had potentially quite a long time to rationalize who we are, how we want to be seen and all of those things. One of the big mistakes I made was forgetting that for everyone else, this was new. And I got very frustrated with some people because I was like, well, why don't you understand this? Why don't you get this? And I'm not gonna beat myself up about it because, you know, there's a lot going on for me too. But I definitely, the only thing I would say is just maybe hold some grace for people who are well-intentioned or are trying who want to be there for you, but they haven't had the chance yet to work this all through. I think I was very impatient in those. And certainly the first sort of 18 months, I think, you know, now five and a bit years down the line, I think people have had enough time to get the head round. It's so people who don't, I'm starting to get a whole other message, but definitely, definitely just, it doesn't mean you have to put up with nonsense. It doesn't mean you have to accept people being unpleasant or violent or abusive, but have some grace for people who are just getting their heads around it. And they're gonna have questions that you might not be able to answer, loads of people when I came out. They wanted to know everything. I don't know. I don't know. I just, I've been a crisis and I've finally told everyone. So I'm still working a load of stuff out myself. So definitely, you know, ask people for time, give people time. That's the one thing I would say. Any, anything you would want to offer to those people who are considering that step of coming out? - You've put that so well. Patients is such a thing. And I think that also applies to the person coming out, be patient with yourself. I would say, and this is touching on something you mentioned earlier about strength. And when people have said to, you know, both of us at some point, you know, oh, wish I had the strength. You've got, you know, you've got so much strength, courage, et cetera. I would actually say it takes more strength to stay in the closet and hold that door shut than it does to come out. Because a lot of what you think about and experience in the closet is literally you attacking yourself. And that's punishing, that is brutal. It's not as bad as you experienced. Yes, hate crimes on the high. Yes, you know, we still face abuse and we still face, you know, problems with jobs, families, this sound the other. But to hold it internally takes so much more strength. It's draining. I was at the point where I couldn't even focus on anything in the day, because my mind was just in this constant cycle of what am I going to do? What if, various things. So it actually is less stressful, less, like, you know, it takes a lot less strength to just, just be yourself and be your own kind of beautiful. Don't come out and expect, you know, to look like everyone else, you won't. And this idea of passing, I admit I used to subscribe to that when I first came up because I felt like I had to. I felt like for society to accept me, I had to look like that. And it was, you know, a few years in, I took a step back and I thought, why am I rushing to look like that when, you know, cis women have been moving away from hourglass figures and stereotypes for years. Why are we going down that road? So I started to challenge it more. And I would say, you know, don't be afraid to challenge what is the norm, because by default, we don't follow the norm. So what, you know, why are you pushing yourself down that route? If you want to, and you understand it, fine, but don't just go along with it because you think you need to, just be yourself, be your own kind of beautiful. - Yeah, that is absolutely great advice. So let's finish. I'm going to go, we've been quite good. Okay, we've not done anything that's going to make the edits a screen too much so far. So I'm going to change that up a bit. So let's finish up on, tell me, if you can, an interesting fact about the Diana Ross song I'm coming out. I wish I could say, I can tell you a fact about it. But I don't know anything. I know all the song, but that's about it. - Well, I tell you two things about it then, because I did this to Oscar as well. And they were as they were stumped as anyone else. - I'm intrigued now. - So I'll tell you two, two, two things. The first one is that the song has become an anthem, an iconic anthem for our community. And one of the songs is, an iconic anthem for our community. And why not? It's Noel Rogers, Bernard Edwards. You can't really go wrong with those two. The first thing is that Diana Ross was angry when she first recorded it for two reasons. The first one was that she didn't like, it sounded too much like Sheik. And quite frankly, I think she must have been on crack or something, because certainly that Sheik is not a bad thing to sound like. So the second thing she was angry about was that she was told that people might think she was trying to come out as lesbian. And she was worried and she was horrified by that. And it's a real message that in the years since she recorded that, she has now embraced the fact it is an anthem for our community. She has embraced the fact that being an ally to our community and sound tracking part of our community is an amazing thing. And that for me shows that people can change their thoughts. They can change their minds. They can change with love because she got lost in our community and that changed around. So I think that's a really fabulous thing. And thank you, Diana Ross, for making such an amazing record on Ireland and Bernard. And the other thing is it is the only song to ever hit number one in the US charts, which has a jazz trombone solo in it. It was a guy whose name has escaped me, who was otherwise known for some of those appalling, well, appalling, actually I love them and I've got some, but generally speaking, pretty appalling disco covers of movie sound tracks that were really popular in the late '70s. So if you've not heard the disco versions of the Star Wars theme and the cantina song in disco style, you are missing out. And if I were to see this myself, I would probably get a copyright strike, but I would drop a bit in. But they are the most amazing, amazing records. And he was really big on that. And by doing the Diana Ross thing, and they used the wrong mix because the engineer just saw four takes on there. And he assumed they were in ranked order. So he just picked mix number one and cut it. And actually that wasn't the mix that they wanted. They actually wanted mix number three, but he got his trombone solo. So completely awful, but I liked putting a completely dar darist in the end of any podcast I do. I just want to end for me on something which says, it is a source of great happiness to come out. I wish everyone a really joyful coming out day. So all of the people who have come out, who are going to come out, who are thinking of coming out, grab the joy from this moment because actually you only get, we talk about doing it multiple times. But in real terms, the big reveal is only once. So make the most of it, enjoy it, love it. It's an amazing thing. It's like any other life celebration. And for those of you who are allies who are out there who are getting us through the door of the closet, or in some cases, blowing the hinges off the closet door, thank you. We love you, we need you and keep doing what you're doing. What are your final thoughts for anyone? I would say to anyone, especially those who are thinking about coming out, are scared to come out. This national coming out day is for you as well, you know, just because you're not physically going to come out or out yet. But I ask you to take a look at all the positivity attached to the day, all the testimonies, all the videos, the experiences shared, the allies giving them, you know, their stories as well about loved ones. Take all that, really immerse yourself in it and you'll see that coming out is beautiful, that you are loved, you are supported. So don't be afraid. And I hope that seeing the joy and the beauty from that, just that one day alone can really help to give you the strength you need to kind of say, yeah, I'm doing the right thing here. I'm headed in the right direction. And so allies, get involved, you know, talk about why we, in fact, we shouldn't even need to come out. How can we all do our bit to become such a diverse society? That one day, years in the future, someone can just say, hey, mom, dad, this is my boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, however they want to be called. And the parents simply just go, great, nice to meet you. How do we get to that point? And we can only get to that point with allies. So allies, get your thinking hats on and get moving. Thank you so much. You've been either. I've been Emily and this has been an Exones in the city podcast. And we wish you all a joyful coming out. Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]
