Yeshiva of Newark Podcast
Rosh HaShanah Readiness-Blowing the problem out of proportion- Kiddush before Tekias Shofar
[Music] You're listening to the Yeshiva of Newark at IDT podcast. I'm your host and curator, probably a problem given leverage. And I hope you enjoy this episode. [Music] Prashishanoh, Guru Shari Shona, Yom Shultila. And of course, many people, maybe not this year, but in many years they go into the afternoon. And because of that, people get hungry, they can't stay again if they started seven. In many of the Yeshiva dovenings and other long Chazonesha dovenings, it's 2-2-3 o'clock. They're weak. So now, that's where they're assuming the minute developed. I want a person to be strong enough to really doven moussef well and to listen to this key as properly. So, normally on a regular Shabbos, can you make kiddish before moussef? It really isn't a problem, they say. You can't, you're not supposed to eat before you don't have a chakras. But the chakras, not before moussef. Arashishanoh, there's a mitzvotchia chauffeur. So, they point out that there are different minogas. Let's read a little bit inside again. Yeshkyuotchiaveno some kiddishwarabe, kodimatchiaus. Some places, they make a big kiddish. And as they says, "kachnogubishiva rabbot," that's the minig in many yeshivos. The minigadieschmukomuchabam ain mukachimkodimatchiaus. And they wait till after moussef. In fact, there's another option that the postcom mentioned, which is an interesting one, that they actually eat, even though we talked about not talking and not making any sort of F-sick between, we talked about this a number of weeks ago that Chiaus de Miushav, that's the first one, the Chiaus de Moomad, some have a minig, and I've never seen this, to actually make kiddish after the Chiaus de Miushav, meaning after the Chiaus and after Kriya Satora. Then they make kiddish. So, let's take a look and see going through this article about some of the issues. Obviously, this all starts from a mission and jobist that many of you are familiar with, that a person shouldn't begin an activity when there's an activity like eating, or going through a barber, or anything like that, or to going to a hot bathhouse, or to go to a tanner, because those things take time. Because we're afraid that those things are gonna take you away from what? What was the mission and Chiaus worried about davening mental health? So therefore, you see that even if it's a teal, which might be the rub on on, as I'll say, don't do these other activities. And that, of course, is the saa control, hunarach. And that happens, that is sort of starting another activity, is even before this amount of mental, even a half hour before. (speaking in foreign language) The same thing, even though the mission talks about davening mental health, the same thing is true about starting a meal when you have to daven my life, whether it's by my creation martial artists. Again, I talked about the Easter by Kriya Samigila. The Gamara speaks about it as well, about eating before you should fill the midst of davenmina. In fact, that's what it says in Chiau hunarach. (speaking in foreign language) You're not supposed to eat until you take the davenmina. Because (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) The person shouldn't do and it's time for the midst of the vedica's homemade shouldn't begin at an activity. And don't eat. And the Mr. Buren mentions when it comes to (speaking in foreign language) even a half hour before. Don't start a meal, 'cause we're afraid. You're gonna get caught up in it, and the mitzvah won't be able to be done properly. And then he mentions Miguel, which, of course, I said before. And the Ramallah adds those words, which I indicated how difficult it is, even though it's difficult, 'cause you've been fasting the whole tinesester. You don't eat until the Miguel rating is over. So you see, you're not supposed to eat if there's a mitzvah that needs to be done. Now. - Rabbi Kivolevith? - Yes. - A question. What about the sequence that we have? First comes Kemach, then comes the Torah. Or it's kind of, it's not involved here. - I'm just speaking. - No, no, no, you're correct. - In terms of not eating before davening, but-- - Right, you're talking about who? You're talking, again, what Dr. Kogan is saying is that when you impose, I guess what you're trying to say is when you impose certain strictures on someone, those strictures are understandable, but they might undermine what you're really trying to do, which is to do the mitzvah. So if I stop you from eating, you mentioned very, very shivart. It's better to eat before davening to daven just to eat. That's what you were talking about. - Yep. - Yeah, so the question is, is there another way around this? There another way around it. Obviously, if a person, if the situation is that nobody is concentrating and everyone is weak and passing out, maybe we need to, instead of making a kiddish, maybe there's something else that could be done, that as you can see from all these places in Mishnah, from the Mishnaius, from the Shoshanarach, and other places in the Gomaris about not eating when you have a mitzvah to be done, it makes sense that the same thing should apply for Tkia Shilthur. In fact, so let's think about, you're right, to daventhal three and to be completely Ashmata by that time, and therefore you don't even have the ability to concentrate at all. You're right, that sounds like something that is probably not what God wants you, doesn't want you to be dead on your feet. There shouldn't be an isthur, there are a bonon of not eating, or that's there to protect the mitzvah when it undermines the mitzvah. But there might be another way, obviously, but what we need to do, Dr. Kogan, is see from Hazal's vantage point, what is the way we conduct ourselves when we know we have a mitzvah to happen? And it seems from all these sources that when you know we have a mitzvah to be done, you don't start eating. A question is how big of a meal, a snack versus a meal, and other things like that. The writvah actually writes in Sukkah, and he says it's not only about a little love, he says show for as well. He says that you have to stop eating to be mankind the mitzvah. So you see from the writvah, that you have to stop eating to go blow chauffeur, the same thing obviously would be true, you shouldn't start before you fulfill the mitzvah. So the writvah does mention chauffeur as well. You could have implied it from all these other places. And it's interesting though, that even though it's implied, the authors of this article point out that it is interesting that the shoshanarach mentions it by McGillah. They mention it by Lula, 'cause that's in the Gomara. It's mentioned of course by Minhra and by Mare, 'cause that's the Mishnah in Shabbos. And Marev makes just, Marev is obviously similar to the idea of Davening Minhra. All those things are logical, but it's interesting that in shoshanarach and the Ramban, we don't find the extension of this halocha to Tkia Shofu. Now, the Moghannabrum, besides this writvah, the Moghannabrum found a Tosefta, which is basically a very strong source. What does the Tosefta say? The Tosefta says Tkia Shofu is like Lula and McGillah, that you need to stop eating in order to fulfill the mitzvah. So if that's true and that source is seemingly, not just one reshow, that source is as powerful as a Mishnah's source, that those have to. So it seemed that you shouldn't start eating when it's time to do the mitzvah. Therefore, the Shari Chuvah, that of course was written by Revchai and Margolis, Revchai and Margolis' brother. He says based on this Moghannabrum, (speaking in foreign language) You need to don't eat until you, until you've heard the Shofu blowing. The only hat that he gives you is Koshalov Hatainus Harbe. If it's very difficult, if the fasting, meaning that you haven't eaten, and it's very difficult, you can go and eat. I mentioned where Chaim Margolis, his brother was her prime Zalm Margolis. And I have a suspicion, although I didn't look inside. We know that he helped his brother finish the safer. If you take a look at a classic Mishnah-Burah page, you'll see what I'm talking about, the Shari Chuvah. There's the Shari Chuvah, bear-hative. Again, I can show you a page and you'll see what I'm talking about. Every page that Mishnah-Burah has, the Shari Chuvah says specifically, that you are not allowed to eat before with Kisholov. And the safer that was written by Raphreim Zalm Margolis, which is, I think he might have, by the time it got the Hochas Roshoshana, it might have been him who wrote it. It's not surprising that the same author, the Matha Prayim says that you're not allowed to eat before it's Kisholov. And the base mayor writes that as well. The base mayor was a mayor of Posen, a mayor of Posenar and a very, very post-state that was given incredible significance by the Mishnah-Burah that the base mayor says it could be the first day is different than the second day because on the second day, it's Derabana. And therefore, Derabana, you can maybe take a bite because it could be eating is different than taking a snack because what's the whole reason behind this issue? The whole issue is maybe you're gonna keep on eating and you're gonna lose the mitzvah. So if that's true, what's the whole problem? Just don't have a meal, right? The Mishnah, it's based on the Mishnah in Shabbos. They were talking about Lil Yochau, (speaking in foreign language) meaning a sudah. But if all you're doing is having a piece of cake, a cup of coffee, chocolate bar, whatever it is you're having, that lukhura shouldn't be a problem. In fact, do you look at the Gomar and Brakhos, we say that we don't possibly have been lazy that Oster's even a little bit of a taste of food before Musa for Minhah. So therefore, in Shoshan arak it says, unlike in the morning, you're allowed to take a little bite before Minhah. Now, what is it that's called a tahima, a little snack? What's called a little snack? So some say a little snack is, could even be bread, as long as it's not a Bates's worth. And that of course is the same Aloha that Prima Gaudam says about making a Mizonos on Hala or whatever for a sorority or what's considered possible by kissing it, and cake or other things like that, that that's called a tahima, less than a Batesa. But the Mr. Burah, interestingly quotes the great Khasidah Gedon of Thayim Sansa, of Thayim Al-Bristan, that Muhtul al-Ekhul al-Washir Suda. So, Shigesh Bhavadhi visar shul al-Ekhul Mizonos al-Sova but on the Fimana Mi'yal's Mr. Sholosh Batesin. So, according to the Mr. Burah quoting, the different Khayim, you could get away, it's called tahima, up until the time of three Batesin, that's a decent amount of cake, three Batesin. That's quite a bit. And when it comes to fruit, if it's a fruit plate, you can have orange juice or fruit or whatever it is, seems like it's not a problem at all. In fact, that is the sakah the shulchanar as well. When it comes to Minhanmar, if you can have quite a bit of food beforehand. And that's as far as Madhika's hummus and wolf and Kriya Sammigila goes, if you need to eat. Now, that would seem to indicate that this isn't the problem. Even what they do in theishivas of making the big kiddish, as long as people aren't washing and eating a lot of bread and making whole big meal out of it, it should be fine. Even though I told you the shari chubha and the mata fryem who might be the same person, were against it. But it would seem, why? That's true. So, the muganavra says that you should only be maker, but siragado. And when was that? That was, and that's what the Ramal quoted about Kriya Sammigila. Some say that the same thing is emiss when it comes to other mitzvahs that unless you really need to, you really shouldn't be eating. Now, that seemingly should apply to Kriya Shofar, especially, I mean, aren't we trying to show God that we care about all his mitzvahs? He's our God, he's our king. And he's our king, not just even for these things that the Raman have imposed upon us, and which maybe we should try to be makhmir and not eat. Even if there's yay shwahokil and there's room to be makhm. Isn't it? Yeah, no. The great Yarshalmi Posak, rebel Yzer Waldenburg, wanted to explain why it's different than Lulov and other places. And even when it comes to eating on time disaster, all those things a person is gonna go to his house to eat. He's gonna go to a little private place. He's gonna eat beforehand. Whereas the way it happens in the Yashivas and some of the Hasidoshiki it was, is they have the kiddish in the shul where everybody's around. So obviously, you think everybody who's sitting there, in other words, it's not like everybody goes home to eat. They make the kiddish in the shul. And there for everybody encourages you to stop. Hey, let's go. Everybody back here in 20 minutes. So nobody is going to get so involved in his eating that he's gonna forget to do the mitzvah. It's also the svar of Revaldenburg is also mentioned by Rishalmi Saman. Hoorabad seems to be a very strong svar. Another reason, of course, is the fact is they know that everyone, there's a time the chauffeur is gonna be blown. Right? And so therefore we don't think the person is somehow gonna say, "Yeah, I'm just gonna push it off." The famous Safer Sir Sartubo from one of the, I think it's Aaron Reich, I believe, or one of the sof from the Aaron Reich, also says, "You're not gonna forget the Kia Shul "for you have Amos Adin." Now, based on all these svaras, if a person really can't concentrate because he's fasting, he can eat a little bit before that feels. And you can see, also, in the svari post, like the Kapahayim mentions that as well. Another reason, of course, is not only can't you not concentrate, but it's become a fast day for you. And you don't wanna have a fast day on Rishashana. Mr. Brewer ever says, "You don't have to worry about a Rishashana fast day." On a regular holiday, a regular job is yes, you shouldn't be fasting a half a day. On Rishashana because you're so involved in Tfiloh and making God the king, and we know the sheets us, "Oh, and it moved faster, Rishashana." Don't start saying, "I can't fast on Rishashana." So, therefore, the Mr. Brewer weakens that svara as far as that goes. As we said before, there are post-comers saying before she shouldn't even be tasting anything. If you look at the Mr. Brewer, he seems to agree with the Mathayayim. Only if a person, and therefore, only if a person really needs it, someone who's weak or sick. This is very relevant to this year. We know that Rekheweger wrote, it was circulated around Pesach time. You might remember it. Rekheweger circulated his Pesach during the cholera epidemic, and he said that this is the eighth, so that we were talking about Richard, that don't eat before the Tkios, Rekheweger wrote, and you can eat after the Tkios to Miushav, before you do Musif. That was during the cholera epidemic where people were supposed to, they were afraid that people would fast, and we get weak. But even in that situation, Rekheweger, interestingly, he didn't say, "Oh yeah, definitely eat beforehand." Obviously, the elephant in the room is the length of the davening. Aretha Satvila Nogakiyo, the davening takes so long. Um, Rebel Yashiv was asked about it, and he said, "It's wrong. "I know they do it in the Yeshivas, "they need to make a kiddish." (speaks in foreign language) Rebel Yashiv felt. So obviously, what's the eighth, though? The eighth is to do what? To daven shorter? To make the davening quicker? That would seem to be the easiest eighth. And I guess this year, I think it might happen. And I know when the JAC, they're talking about finishing the davening and two, and I know that Shkumba Minion is gonna finish in two hours and 15 minutes. I think they're starting at 6.30, they're finished by 8.45. I don't know about the other shoals, I can't tell you. But I think that, you know, JAC doesn't need the excuse to go fast. - Right, but the question is about, let's give them credit, though. I don't believe that they, in the regular big minion, I don't believe they eat, they make a kiddish before the Kias. I haven't seen that here. In Yeshivas, yes. But I haven't seen it in a Balabatesh, you know, sure. - No, they never made a kiddish, yeah. - But you remember, Mosha, that there are places where they do. And you might, when you were in Yeshivas, I'm sure you remember that this was like standard practice. And by citizenship places, they do it as well. See this about the measures. It is an interesting sock from the Osiris satruva that we mentioned before, where he says, what about Onchapas? Onchapas, like this year, we're not gonna blow chauffeur. So maybe there's not a problem of making kiddish before Mosha, right? In other words, we're not gonna be blowing the chauffeur. It's the first day we should shut up. There's no chauffeur blowing. So there's no chauffeur blowing. So let us make kiddish. So the Osiris satruva says an interesting kiddish. - I have a question. - Yes, yes, Mosha. - What is, what's the Dean Halacha about before you started the dabbling? Let's say, seven o'clock. - So that's another problem. That eating, that's another is served. Eating with Sohal Adab. That's the ister of eating before davening. That's an ister every single day of the year. - No, you say a brochod. You say a brochod. And then-- - No, no questions, whether that's called to you or not. There's a question where that's considered enough of a tequila that you can eat or not. So again, there are many people. Look at him, look at the Mr. Berghi, he doesn't allow it. He says you could just drink a little bit, you can have tea with our sugar. Revol Yoshev said you could have coffee, even with milk. - All I said was I meant drinking, just the drinking. - Drinking. So drinking is not a problem. That's what Sohal Adab and drinking shouldn't be a problem. So again, let's say a power shake. A person could easily get one of these things that I've been drinking sometimes. I don't know if I'll have one tonight, I might, or go to sleep. Instead of having that 'cause a full supper, you have like a protein shake. So the protein shake, having that in the morning, I think is, again, I don't wanna say because it seems to give a lot of energy to you. Maybe that's not like sitting and eating. I'm not sure if that's like a cup of coffee or tea. Could be, the Mr. Berghi would definitely not allow it because it's got sugar, it's got other stuff in it, it's got other aspects to it. But generally like a drink that can give you some energy and some nutrition in it, that will cover shouldn't be a problem. But actually now it's time for the midst of chauffeur, we go out to eat, that is a thing that is strange. What's interesting here for the socks is that even on chauffeurs, the service at Chubah wanted to say that you have a mitzvah, what's the mitzvah? To do the daven musif with these psuccan. And therefore we know that there's an asmata from the Pasek where it's a zikron teruah that on chauffeurs you mentioned the psuccan. That's also a team of a mitzvah. And therefore the same sort of zihiras would apply if you are makbiht on a regular roshoshana that's not on chauffeurs, you should makbiht on roshoshana or chauffeurs as well. And that is a interesting question. - Rob, can you have a question? - Yes. - Go ahead. (speaking in foreign language) Is it considered part of a chajarid musafu? It's its own section. - So you're right, so it's the people who make kiddish say, look, the answer is you don't eat before you don't. - No, no, no. - Right, it's not considered. - I'm not talking about eating that. - Yeah, right, so I'm just trying to-- - I'm not talking about eating at all. - I understand that. So I didn't mean to cut you off. I was trying to answer your question by putting it in perspective. That's the reason why people felt you could make kiddish because we've done our, we've already davened. This is not davening. This is not eating before davening, right? It's skia chauffeur is not technically the way we do it with the tikiyastimiyushov, a part of chakras. That was the takkana to blow before musaf. Now what we do during musaf is part of the tfilah. The tikiyast that we do in the schmon esrae, whether we do it in the lakhash, like the spardim, or only in the tfilah of the hazzaradim. That is a part and parcel of tfilah itself. chauffeur and the brochos, they all come together, all a way of appealing to God through the tfilah. The tikiyastimiyushov are in a sense, they're like a separate mitzvah that the rabbanah developed. 'Cause really, before that takkana, they would, it was all part of davening chauffeur. It was all part of musaf, or maybe even part of chakras, according to seemingly from some sources. (speaking in foreign language) And the mission says that you should do it during chakras. It talks about where you do the tikiyos, where you do mauchis or kronos. And that's a question why we don't do tikiyastimiyushov for my chakras. Why don't we do it as part of, why do we do it as part of musaf, not part of chakras? There is a question as well. Women, this doesn't really apply to them, because women don't have the mitzvah to carry a chauffeur anyway, even though they're makable on themselves. And therefore, you're not gonna say, well, you should need before the mitzvah. They don't really have the mitzvah at all. Chayatim talks about it, and he says in my (speaking in foreign language) She needs to eat, even though she's usually gonna wait. (speaking in foreign language) But he says, even though the chayatim says that women have taken this mitzvah on, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Meaning, women only took this mitzvah in a way that it's easy for them. - Let's be realistic. Are we really gonna tell our wife what to do? - Yeah, but there are very firm wives who say, I remember my grandmother and other women, to them, Chayat chauffeur was like, they knew they had to hear the chauffeur, right? So, many of them are gonna say, I wanna be just like you, you don't eat, I'm not gonna eat. So the chayatim explains that this kabola that women had, by the way, this year we talked about it, because of Corona and other things, we've had to understand this, 'cause we're not gonna send, the women aren't gonna be coming to show, especially if they're worried, and we're not gonna be sending people to people's houses to blow chauffeur, you know, where, and everything like that. Because of that, as I pointed out to you a couple of weeks ago from Chayatim Avadya, they don't have to be mad, they're mad, they're even. But in a normal year, you can understand, Mosheh woman says, no, I wanna hear the chauffeur blowing. And I wanna be like a man. So the chayatim explained, look, you're a very firm woman, I understand. But the whole kabola that women took upon themselves, whenever that occurred, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, who knows? Maybe it was right by the time of the Horbin, I don't think so. It's only mentioned in the Chohonara something later, but whatever happened, somewhere in the middle ages, the women decided to makab upon themselves. It was only, it wasn't with an aspect of Tsar. And since this is an aspect of Tsar, not eating beforehand, that aspect in the midst of doesn't apply. Now. (upbeat music) - Thanks for joining us for another episode from the Ishiva of Newark at IDT podcast. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss a single episode. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]