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(upbeat music) - Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. - Yeah, and Choo Choo! - Oh, that's right, yay indeed, Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallom here with my cohost. - I'm Jimmy Wissman. - Thank you folks so much for joining us today. All aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. We got some crazy stuff for you today. A mystery, a mystery wrapped in an enigma with a big package of what the hell's going on here all around itself. So it's a big mess and it's a trip this week. We'll find out it's soaked in hot tub water. It's gross, we'll talk all about it. Before we get to that, definitely shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets, where are they getting tickets to Jimmy? - Yeah, live shows? - Live shows, all throughout the year. There's a couple that are sold out already. So get 'em quick, 'cause they're going even like Boston and New York in December, they're selling fast. April 5th, Sacramento, April 6th, San Francisco. You are up first everybody, so let's kick it off right. Don't embarrass yourselves or us, so let's have a good time here. Minneapolis, you sell that joint out, that'll be our biggest show we've ever had. So you guys, that's right, you guys, every time someone talks to us and says, what's the biggest show? We wanna say Minneapolis, so. - You're not gonna believe this. - Make it so many, Apple, it's make it work. That is shut up and give me murder.com and get your tickets for the 420 virtual live show, April 20th, and it's available for two weeks this time. After that, that's how it worked out. We said, all right, yeah, let's do that. So it's available for two weeks after you get your tickets anytime up there. It is gonna be so much fun, those are available right now, just like a regular live show, but in your damn house or on your roof, I don't care where you watch the damn thing. Whatever you gotta do, in your car, in a parking lot, like a creep outside of your ex-girlfriend's house, whatever you wanna do, I don't care, do that, don't be a creep though. So that's shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com/crimeandsports, that's all your bonus episodes, anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything, couple hundred back episodes, and new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small town murder, and how many out of that, where do they get? - All of it. - Every drop of it. This week, crime and sports, we're gonna do personal ads from the old newspapers there. How do you find love in 1988 in the newspaper? - Write it down. - Small town murder, one of the weirdest stories ever, the Collier Brothers, it's in New York City, not a small town, but there, these very strange brothers who hold themselves up in this very weird brownstone, - I can't wait to find out why. - Until they had to cut the walls out to find them, it's insane, we'll talk all about that. Patreon.com/crimeandsports, and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show, where Jimmy will mispronounce your name while he'd love to get it correct. But, you know, we take what we can get. That said, - Reading is not my strong suit. - Well, plus they're hard, I mean, last names are difficult, like what is that? There's a C and a Z, and a Y, I don't know what any of that is. - It's not fair. - That's hard, so that's sad, everybody. I think it's time to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs, what do you say? Arms to the sky, let's all shout. ♪ Shilah, thank you for giving me murder ♪ - Let's do this, everybody. What do you say? Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it here. - I like it, yeah. - We are going all the way down to Georgia on this one. I'm a little wild here. We're going to Millageville, Georgia. - Yeah. - Yeah, in central Georgia, about two hours outside of Atlanta. And I've heard of Millageville, too, for some reason. Yeah, they've had- - Goody mob wrapped about it a lot. - That's where it came from. I'm like, where have we heard this town's name? Yeah, I don't know what they're wrapping about 'cause there's not much going on here. - They say N word, it's real. That's what they say. - It's- - Millageville, it's real. - Real what? I imagine real porn. - There are 17,000 people here. What's- - I don't know what's so real. - I don't know what's- - I don't know what's- - I don't know what's- - Call Silo about it. - It's the country, man, this is not real. I mean, we'll talk about her, but we'll get into this here. About two hours outside of Atlanta, 17,278 people, median household income here is low. That's the thing, $36,053. So just over half the national average, median home price also low, $173,800. So also low there. Modos, they have several modos. - Is that right? - Oh yeah, capitals, columns, and culture, which I feel like when you're doing CCC and it's like in the out and Georgia, you want it to be KKK possibly, maybe. I don't know, I'm just kidding. But seriously, who the fuck knows? And historic charm, modern appeal is another one. - Okay. - And then finally, this is great. The first lady of Georgia. (laughing) All right. - Millageville? - Ah, the town is a lady tonight, that's right. - My God. - Wow. Millageville to you. - Is there a prison lady? - Two night, no, there's a college there. There's all sorts of stuff. The Georgia lunatic asylum was built here. - There you go. That's what it's about, which is a great name for any place. I'm gonna name my next house, the Georgia lunatic asylum, no matter where it is in the world. It could be in Poland. It's gonna be the Georgia lunatic asylum. - What year was that established? They put lunatic on it. - 1842 was when it was being built. Lunatic, it's now the Central State Hospital, or was later the Central State Hospital. This was the capital of Georgia for years. - Really? - Until after the Civil War. - That's why it's the first lady. - That's when, yeah, then it was moved to Atlanta after that. So that's how that went. Four stars here, let's do some reviews. Few reviews of this town, just to get a little tone of what we're talking about here. Reviews, four stars. I've lived here my entire life and I love it. I know a face almost everywhere I go, and the lake is always fun to visit. And not a lot to go on there. - No. - They know people and the lake is nice. - They like water. - Most lakes are nice. So there you go. Three stars, I like the town. It is just very boring. Well, not according to the goody mob, apparently it's-- - They said it's real. - They said it's real, real boring. Here's two stars. This area doesn't do a lot of outside activities or anything else. - Or inside activities. - Or inside, that's a nothing. People sleep under their houses and that's all they do. Here we go, this is my favorite review. Maybe of all time we've ever done. One star, only one good neighbor. Constant fighting when it comes to the rest and threatening violence with weapons, guns, and pickaxes alike. - Guns and weapons, guns and pickaxes are not weapons? - I guess not. Pickaxe, imagine your neighbors are coming at you with pickaxes, that seems fun. Overall, don't feel very safe here. Many run down buildings around. There's not even one right behind my house, or there's even one right behind my house. Stray animals and mean animals owned by neighbors. - So this-- - Even the pets are bad. - The strays are friendlier than the pets. That's not great. (laughing) - That's not good at all. - Neighbors are also overly nosy, and when moving in, kept trying to get into the house by offering their help, and even when told everything was all right, well, maybe they were friendly. - Yeah. - Maybe they were just like, not really, we want to help you, we're trying to be neighborly. And you're like, get the fuck away from me, these people are trying to get into my house. - You sound like a psychopath. - I don't want to meet your animals. - Yeah, I don't want them coming in either, but still. - No. - The same people from adults to teens to little kids, mind you, and when they're outside, we also happen to be, they seem to be always watching. Very unnerving and scary place. - I think this person's the problem. - Yeah. - I'm not a big neighbor guy. You know that, but your neighbors make eye contact with you and offer to help when you move in. That doesn't mean they're evil. - You didn't, what is paranoid person? - They're always watching. - They're always watching. It's like the Truman Show in here. I don't like it. Weird things to do. - Lock down and shackles a one way seat to Roosevelt. I think that's about the state hospital. - Maybe. - That's what I think it's about, locking you up in the hospital. - Yeah, if you're a lunatic, there you go. That's for you. - There you go, yeah. The Deep Roots Festival thing to do here. It's backwards 21st edition. They have entertainment ranging from magicians to rock and roll. - Those are the-- - That's everything in between. - Is there anything good in there? - Well, magicians is basically a pile of shit. So everything from a pile of shit to rock bands they have there. - To rock band covers. - Yeah, pin the tail on the donkey to a Bachmann Turner overdrive cover band. That's what you got there. - Uh-oh. - So the lineup for 2000, this was for last year, the Scott Little Band, gotta have them. Smokey Jones and the $3 pistols. - I don't think these are good bands. - Well, if you get-- - Yeah, we've never heard of them at all here. - $3 pistols. - Also though, that's like the kind of the free ones 'cause they also have a Lake Country Gymnastics team is gonna do a presentation. There's also Richard Martin is gonna perform. I don't know, I don't know who that is. It's a long time regional favorite. So, in other words, not never got famous and he's old now. - He's from Macon. - Next up is head turning fiery and passionate performer Vanessa Collier. - Head turning, fire what? - Firey and passionate performer. And then, Blues Traveler's there. Again, how many times have we run into Blues Traveler on this fucking show talking about the-- - They're in all these little festivals. They need to-- - They'll play anything it seems like. - They should open for us at this point, I think, when we go out and run. - Yeah, it seems like John Popper just will take anything 'cause he just doesn't want to stop singing. - Yeah, he's enjoying his life. I don't know, I'm gonna love it. Beats the shit out of me. - He's too talented to be doing these things. - He is so-- - I watched him play a fucking brew right there. - Fucking great that guy. - He's an incredible, incredible musician and the whole band is great. - So good. - And then they're like, let's go. Yeah, Vanessa Collier, before he's coming on before-- - We'll follow her. - Yeah, okay, let's talk about a murder of people. Let's do this. - Let's do it. - We'll go back to May of 2019 for this one. So not very far, it's a five-year thing here. And it is a weird one. This is one of the strangest ones we've ever done, I'll just say, just because it's so hard to figure out what's going on here. Let's talk first about a woman named Marianne Shockley. She's 43 years old in 2019. She was, according to the school, an academic professional associate in the department of entomology with the College of Agriculture and Environmental Sciences, just like you used to do. - Yeah. - That's how I met, Jimmy. We were both an academic professional associates in an entomology department. And then we hit it off and said, fuck, we're pretty funny, we should do something. Let's do some stand up and then a podcast. - Is that the science of tasting entomens? 'Cause I'm a doctorate. - I would, yeah, I'm pretty good at that. - What is entomology? - I'm a master, actually I got a master's in Drakeology from their devil dogs, so I got that going on too. - Perfect. - She's a professor of entomology, which is bugs. Entomology is insects. So yeah, and she especially is into, as we'll get into, eating bugs and using bugs as a very, insects as a very low cost, almost free protein source to help feed people who have no food. - What? - Yes, you can make like bug paste protein things. You know, like we used to drop on like Ethiopia in the 90s or whatever, you could drop like peanut butter protein things that they would eat and it would be like a heavy protein and that's kind of what they're talking about making with bugs. - Really? - Yeah, and they're like bugs are plentiful, so we can do that. But I would imagine the processing would probably cost a lot to do, unless you just ate the bugs raw. - I guess just don't tell them. I don't know, man. - Don't tell them. Don't tell them they're eating fucking beetles. I think that's going to be difficult. - I could, I'm not eating with the crops, man. I'm not doing it. - Why is there antennae in here? Is that a strange fucking peanut butter? - There's some legs in my teeth. This isn't okay. - What is that? A claw? - What's going on? - There's got a wing in there. You still go for the old hearts and lungs, Henry. My mother's making some sausage and peppers. - You want a wing, Henry? - How about a, all right. So she's been married and divorced three times so far. And she has two children. She's one divorce away from me saying you're not allowed to do this anymore. I have a strict policy. You can get married and divorced three times because a life is long and shit happens. I get it, you get married young, then it doesn't work out, then you find, but once you get divorced the fourth time, you're off the market now. You can date, but you're no longer allowed to legally get married because you don't know what you're doing. - You can get on a hinge and do it for free and for fun, but you don't get to tie things together anymore. - No, if you constantly run over children with your car, eventually they take your license away. You know what I'm saying? You're just not good at this. You can't do it. I think that's what I'm getting at. So yeah, she was, been married. She's been divorced. She's a college professor known as a renowned entomologist. She was known around campus as Doc Shock, as Shockley is her name. - Oh, great, yeah. - Doc Shock, which is pretty cool. Yeah, it'd be nice. She should go on the radio with that. Doc Shock here for the four o'clock hour. Detroit, can you hear me? That would be good, yeah. She'd be good. She said that edible insects were her jam. Here, there's a video of her eating insects and saying, quote, ants taste like citrus. Some grain state bugs taste like cinnamon. - Oh my. - Now, as a small child, my ant forced me to eat ants, and I can tell you, they don't taste like citrus. - Yeah, I smushed some and smelled it, and I will never eat it based on their smell. - She told me that the black ones were chocolate and the red ones were strawberry. - You're just, you're on cousin? What is she? - Well, she's only nine years older than me. Right here's older than me. So it was like an older sister. - It's an evil, evil one. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sweetest lady in the world, too. You've met her, nicest person you're ever gonna meet. That's the point. - Oh my God, that one? - Yeah, yeah. Sweet heart of a, she's the nicest person. - How dare she turn into such a great person after telling a child. - She tied my cousin, Jessie, up to a chair one time. So tightly gagged with bandanas and everything. I was like, holy, she was like reservoir dogs. I was like, holy shit. - She's a monster. - She was crazy because she wanted to smoke in her closet and didn't want him bothering her. She tied him up. I walked up, I was like, oh no. I went out and told my grandma, we were like four. I went out and told my grandmother and I was, she was out in the yard and I said, grandma, Lisa tied Jessie up and-- - I'm gonna go eat some cherry and chocolate eggs. - Grandma said, what the hell out of here? What are you tellin' me for? I'm like, my Jimmy, what the hell do I care? Bubba, blah, leave me alone. And I was like, okay. - I'm gonna sprinkle these ants on my ice cream. - I'm gonna go do that ice cream, yeah, right. So on my dandelion salad, they're already in there. That's all I got. - You ate dandelions and bugs? - I did, yeah, I fucking ate it. - You're lucky to be alive, man. - This lady, we would've got along great me and Marianne. Past those red ones over here. I can eat strawberry, I got vanilla ice cream. - So-- - And what tastes like cinnamon? - Grain state. - Grain state bugs. I don't know what those are. Grain state. - What are they beetles, those sort of-- - I was thinking maybe like a maggots or something. - What? - It's like little worms or something, I don't know. I have no idea. - Oh my god, I don't want to know. - I don't want to know, so I'm not gonna eat it. That's the thing. I don't like mayonnaise, I'm not eating bugs. You know what I mean, like I have standards. - She's out of her mind. - I mean, yeah, but you can't have eggs. Maybe bugs will replace the egg. - Look, if it'll fix this, I'll eat damn anything. - Maybe we'll talk about it. Let's get into it. - Whatever fixes, I love eggs. - It's an ant recipes, soon we got going on. So Marcus Willard is her boyfriend. Now, we will call him Matthew about 100 times during the course of this episode, I'm sure. - Why will we do that? - Because that's an actor. - Oh, yeah. - Matthew Willard. And Marcus Willard, I've never heard of. But I've heard of Matthew Willard, so you want to just say that. He's 41 years old, so two years younger than her. It's weird, they're kind of an odd couple because she's this doctor and this professor and known to be very intelligent and all this type of thing. He sells cars this guy. He quit his job though, right around this during this month, May of 2019. He quit his job a couple of weeks before this. He's been married and divorced twice. Ladies like this guy, for some reason. He's got some way to hook the ladies. He likes them. He said this is a quote from Marcus, quote, "Somehow God continued to send women my way that were way too good for me. And I would date him and I'd take him for granted one right after another. And it was a steady pattern." That's his quote. - He just admitted to being an enormous piece of shit. - Yeah, he's like, "I'm just a jig-a-loh." "And everywhere I go, people know the part I'm blessed." And he's that basically, he's like, "Hi, Louis Creme and David Leeroth here, nice to meet you." - True down, pimp of the year. Now his son, who at the time was about 20 years old in 2019, said, quote, "He's the most charismatic person I've ever met." I mean, he's just got this kind of aura about him that just sucks people in. Anywhere he wanted to go, there was a woman there that he could shack up with and stay with. - So, is he lying to them? - He's a salesman. He's a salesman. He just, yes, this is a Ford Taurus and it's a gray Ford Taurus and it's boring, but he doesn't tell you it's not a gray Ford Taurus. He just tells you how much that Ford Taurus would enhance your life and how great it would be for you. He sells it, it's what he does with himself. I'm not saying I look like a professional athlete, I'm nothing none of this shit, but not the bottom of that ass, let's just say that. (laughing) So, now they had met in the late 1990s, these two. Marianne and Marcus, they met in the late 1990s, they were both students at Georgia College in Millageville and they worked at the same restaurant together. So, they were, you know, became friends, but they didn't date back then. I think they were both married or one was married or whatever. He said, quote, "I was probably 17 and she would have been 20. "I was a little, you know, little wormy guy." That's how he said it, little wormy guy at the time. - As far as I've heard, she digs that. - Yeah, but later on, they ended up dating and 2017 ish still hook up. Now, Marianne's daughter, she said, quote, "I thought he was fine. "I mean, nothing stood out to me to be a regular about him." Irregular, like a pair of pants at her parent, TJ Maxx. - I didn't seem like he had one leg longer than the other. - And just the right legs an inch longer, but other than that, I didn't see anything. Oh, that's Marianne's younger sister, not her daughter, I'm sorry, that was so bad. - Okay, sister said that. - Yeah, she went to the same college as those two. So she was around them back then. Now, the sister said he dated one of my best friends and roommates at the time. They didn't date for very long. She said she got a weird vibe from him. Now, Marcus says that drugs got in the way of college and he dropped out. He just got into drugs and party and all that kind of thing. He said, quote, "I just thought life was a party "and I treated it as such." - Yeah. - Yeah. And he continues to do that all the way, at least up till 2015, because in 2015, he is convicted of selling marijuana and possessing methamphetamine and cocaine. - In his 30s, he's a full-blown drug dealer. - Oh yeah, and he is sentenced to probation, 15 years of probation, as a matter of fact. - Oh boy, Georgia goes hard. - Yeah, but he was lucky he didn't end up in prison, so he was happy to have the probation, it's one of those. So 2017 comes around, after all that's cleared up, and Marcus says, I almost called the Matthew, I went so close. He said, "I was on my motorcycle, "we took a trip around Athens, we went to her home, "away from home, the botanical gardens, "talking about Marianne, met up with her. "The motorcycle ride, I mean, that was, "it's as romantic as you can get "for lunchtime on a Wednesday." So they just clicked at that point and hit it off and started going out. He said, "We spent every possible moment together "on the weekends." And then it became more than that. She really liked having him around, so she brought him along as her assistant on trips to China and Ecuador to do bug stuff. Everybody knows those Ecuadorian bugs are delicious, they're known for it. - How romantic was that motorcycle ride? - That must have been a hell of a motorcycle ride to get taken to other continents. - Honestly. - And we all know about the sweet and sour crickets of the delicious. Crickets and broccoli, cricket lomaine is also a good one I enjoy. The cockroach lomaine that I had is very nice. - Oh, I mean. - So. - Who knows, has eaten many terrible restaurants like I do. I've probably eaten a few bugs. - How many bugs, yeah. - Last week, we were talking about filibertos. We've eaten the Parnia Sauber burritos from Philip. - So many times. - Who would know if there was bugs in there? - There's no way I have it. - You just mash it into your face. You don't have any clue if there's bugs. - It's a burrito. Even if you looked at it, it all looks like bugs. - It all looks like bugs, especially the little pieces of beef. - Yeah, next to a cooked cockroach, same shit. - I'm jamming it in my mouth. - Don't even care. So that said that it was a serious relationship. He said, quote, we were super in love with each other. Super in love, bro. - Yeah, we were though. - Now, her sister, Marianne's sister, said to me, he was not relationship material. He's somebody that you go have a good time with and then you send him on his way. - Oh. - Imagine if some dude's brother said that about some shit. She's like a chick, you just plow a few times and send her on her way. You'd be like, what an asshole. She's like, yeah, another friend said, quote, I didn't particularly care for him. I couldn't really put my finger on it, but I didn't like him. - How many bad reviews is he gonna get? He's a one star guy. - His son also says he didn't like him either. It's the other thing. - Really? - Yeah, your stupid opinions. He would be just a lot of one stars, but we'd be like, kind of true, so we shouldn't do this. He says, quote, nobody knows a father better than their own son. And he had also worn Marianne that his father had a Jekyll and Hyde personality and was on drugs all the time, so be careful. You seem like a nice lady, so I'm telling you this, basically. Carson, that's the son, said he was on cocaine my whole life. - Yikes. - He cautioned her to be careful. He said, quote, you're angry or he's angry and he's violent and you're gonna see it. If I could tell you anything, it would just be to get away. That's what his own son said to this woman. - Get away from that, man, he's terrible. - He is a scary man. So May 11th, 2019. - Here we go. - Marcus and Marianne, I think this is the Saturday before Mother's Day. The Mother's Day is the next day on Sunday. So they were, the college year just ended, I guess. And they're seen in several places on surveillance footage, 'cause this is 2019, going bar hopping in Millageville. So they go to a bunch of bars to celebrate. Then they head over to a friend's house. A guy named Clark Heindel, H-E-I-N-D-E-L. He's 69 years old, Clark. - Wow, let's go to Clark's house. - Let's go to Clark's house. - So that's hopping. - But Clark, wait a year, Clark's house is hopping. Yeah, people-- - Really? - You go over there to get nude and do drugs. That's where you go to Clark's house for. - At a 69 year old man? - Yeah, absolutely. Well, he's a disbarred or whatever the fuck, defrocked psychologist or psychiatrist because he's had problems. Now he's got a yoga studio that he's trying to get-- - Oh, he's that guy. - Yeah, so he's like, I tried to do something in the medical field, now smell my ass. So they go to his house, Clark Heindel, and Marcus said, had a few beers, smoked a little pot, started listening to some music, had a couple more beers. And he said they were just hanging out, then they had a little jam session too. - Oh, no. - Yeah, oh yeah. Clark had an accordion that he busted out. - Of course he did. - Unless you have funny songs like Weird Al, I don't wanna see that shit, put it away. - Not that thing. - Or you can make a monkey dance. If you can do that with it too, you put a big mustache on and pretend to be an Italian from 100 years ago. I'm okay with that. Other than that, get the fuck out of here with that fucking accordion. - Oh, thanks, fuck. - So then Marcus got some conga drums and was doing that, and they were having a conga and accordion jam session. Can you imagine the cacophony of noise that made? - Yeah, this is the opposite weed person that you are. - Yes, it really is, it really is. - There are two guns that weed people. This is not the kind of times. - The kind I am is the kind that makes fun of this kind. - Yeah. - That's me. I get stoned and sit back. - The guy that goes, what is that, a fucking accordion? - You got an accordion? - And then I'll make fun of him for an hour about the accordion while Jimmy laughs. And no one joins in with great jokes and we both laugh. - Well, you're saying, why doesn't Uber pick up? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, what the fuck? This is a situation we're gonna be stuck in at some time. So that's what they're doing, drinking smoke and doing that sort of thing. He had had his license yanked in 2017, Clark did, 'cause a female patient filed a complaint claiming that he engaged her in sexual relationship and a sexual relationship and also had given her weed. That's a cool fucking psychologist, man. - That's, man. - Did she accept the sexual relationship or was she saying it was like inappropriate? - They engaged him on, which is not appropriate 'cause he's a fucking caregiver and he's in a position you can't do that. You can fuck your patients if it's a medical thing. - You probably shouldn't, yeah, but-- - No, I don't think it's legal to. - In a clinical setting like that too, if you just convinced her, that's kind of like-- - That's what I mean, you can manipulate these people. - It's scummy, yeah, that's fucked up. - They're coming to you going, what should I do? - Yeah, and you only fucked this dick, that's what you should do. - Yeah, that's not okay. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about a wonderful company that does fabulous things for your skin, Curology. - Oh, curology.com, see you our O-L-O-G-Y dot com. - Absolutely, and Curology, this is what makes them awesome and different. As you go on their website and go to curology.com and then you figure out they have you take a questionnaire. - Sure. - So it figures out exactly what kind of skin you have, exactly what your problems are, exactly what you're trying to figure out and get better, and then they figure out the perfect product for you. - Oh, that's great. - It's really awesome stuff, yeah, it's personalized rather than having this just general, 'cause everybody's skin's different. I mean, it's your skin hair, all that's different for different people, so to have it personalized for you is fantastic, and they make personalized prescription skincare products here. 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But the thing is, if time was unlimited, how would you make use of it? How would you decide what's important enough to make time for is the thing? So that's kind of how you have to think about it. Therapy can help you find out what matters to you so you can do more of it. - Prioritize. - Prioritize. What are your priorities? And that does help a lot. I know you've actually talked about priorities-- - Oh yeah. - From therapy that they taught you. Gonna had a deal with stuff and have to figure out what your priorities are. - Finding and isolating what's most important throughout the day and getting those tasks done first. And then meandering down the list as you go. - It's a great way to do things and find your life away. - Find what brings you joy actually. - Yeah. - What you might actually like. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help to try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched up with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. That's awesome. Learn to make time for what makes you happy with better help. Visit betterhelp.com/smalltownmurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's better, H-E-L-P, betterhelp.com/smalltownmurder. - Now back to the show. - Hey, that's, he's spoon of sugar for you, come here. - Now he's opening a yoga studio where it's fine to fuck people and give them marijuana. Nobody cares. - Yeah, it's super encouraged. - You go around, see who's the most flexible, and then you give them weed and try to bang them, I feel like, if you're a 69 year old man running a studio. Look at her, she can get a leg back behind her head. Hey, sweetheart, I got some blue dream, honey. What do you think? - Have you ever heard of sour diesel? - Yeah, let's go, baby. My favorite. So Marcus said, quote, "We had stepped down from his porch, and we were getting ready to leave, and I said, 'Hey, Clark, I heard you got some acid.'" So Marcus said, "What? And he said, 'No, but I've got some ecstasy on your way out of the door.'" - Yeah, we'll just, let's take a drug that lasts for hours and hours on my way out the door. - You know, we're going for a ride right now. Why don't we have another ride and see some things? - So Marcus said, they took ecstasy and he said, it got all fuzzy after that, that's what Marcus said. He said, "I was so out of it, I couldn't make a sentence, I couldn't speak." - So-- - Imagine being that age and being like, let's start ecstasy now. - Yes, that's 69, that some of these guys are, they have like, that's not even a midlife crisis, that's a fucking-- - No, that's the end, babe. - That's a Thanksgiving crisis. You're in late November, Chief, what are you doing? That's not a July crisis or a June crisis. - Richard Lewis was 74, I mean, that's five years from now at this guy's point. - Just get ready for Christmas, Chief, come on, come down. Put the lights up and say, "Take a load off." - Jesus fuck, man. So they're all hanging out here. They think Marcus said he thinks Mary Ann got into the hot tub around 9 p.m. They're all naked, by the way here. And she's in the hot tub, they're in the hot tub. One's swimming around. - We're about to leave. - Now we're on ecstasy, Newton hot tub. - What the fuck? - At a yoga perverts house. So. (laughing) - So they are, from now on, I dubbed me. Male yoga instructors, yoga pervert. - Yeah, yoga pervert. - Yoga pervert, I know who you are. - How you doing, yoga creep? - Yeah, if it's a woman, fine. She might actually be trying to achieve flexibility in enlightenment or whatever the fuck. A guy is like, I want to see-- - It's just trying to cop a field. - Yeah, I want to see if I can see your pussy through your tight pants while you're getting a weird position, that's all you can do. - And I want to hold it while I guide you into a weird position. - Yeah, yeah, you trust me, don't you? - So, they do that, Marcus said at one point he got out of the hot tub and he said, Marianne begged him not to get out of the hot tub. He said, baby, get back in this water with me right now. And Marcus said, she had, she had fear in her voice. Those are his stammers, by the way, not mine. I'll give you a few, but he knows they're all his. And if it was, or he said, and it was, it was definitely fear. But he said, he didn't know what she was afraid of. Couldn't figure it out. And he was later asked, well, why didn't you just get back in the hot tub if you sense she had some kind of fear? And he said, quote, 'cause I'm an idiot. So, 1 a.m., a 911 call comes in from this house and it's Clark Kindle on the phone and he says he needs an ambulance. He said his friend, a college professor named Marianne Shockley had seemingly drowned in his hot tub. Oh, no. Yeah. So this began as a 911 call at 1 a.m., all right? This is an unresponsive naked woman in a hot tub at 1 15 Watson Reynolds Road, which I looked up. And if you look up the street view of it, you can't even see the house. It says there's a square footage and stuff, so it's back there, but it's like back in the woods, it's an eight and a half acre lot. It's out there. It's not like in the middle of town or anything, you know what I mean? So, the deputies arrive at the scene to find Kindle and another man who is Marcus Lillard, almost said Matthew again. Both of them naked, they're wearing-- They're expecting company. You're expecting the police force to come over. Come on, put some shorts on. They're wrapped in towels, but nude underneath. And they are performing CPR, the two of them, to a naked unresponsive woman laying on the deck out there. That is Marianne Shockley. She's bleeding heavily from her head at this point. Okay. Yes, so Lillard tells the deputies, this is my girlfriend, the deputy checked for a pulse, but couldn't find one. So EMS is called, finally, and a coroner as well, 'cause she's not breathing or beating of her heart or anything. We're responding, yeah. So, Marcus is, at one point in the body cam video, and Marcus is doing something and you hear the deputy say, "Leave that right there, don't touch nothing." Tells me. So, Marcus tells the deputies he doesn't know what happened because he went into the woods to collect firewood at midnight, which is a terrible time to go into the woods. I get all my wood for fires early in the day. Three hours ago, you were going home. Yeah, and now you're getting wood and you're nude, you're nude in the woods, who collects firewood naked? No fucking way. There's spiders and shit in there. You're gonna get to take that off, so. And all that stuff comes out at night, man. Yeah, and he says the same thing on the body cam. He said, "I went over to get some wood to make firewood. "I brought a whole bunch of stuff back." So, he said, "I don't know, "I was gathering firewood whenever this happened with her, "and then I just started doing CPR." The deputies said that it seems very odd because everything was wet from rain earlier in the day, and there was already a pile of firewood right there by the pool. Yeah, what are you doing? Firewood taken, okay? Catherine wetwood and we already got wood. He said he got back from the woods and noticed that Shockley, Mary Ann, was passed out in the hot tub and he pulled her out. So, those are his words, passed out. He was taking her, he said, to the other end of the pool deck, and then he fell. Well, he was carrying her, and that's how she received her head injury. She cracked it open on the ground when he dropped her, when he fell on her. Well, he's trying to-- Oh, that was like a lawsuit. Why would you pick her up and carry her to the other side of the pool deck? Wouldn't you get her out of the hot tub? Out, right there, just under a firm surface nearby. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you're not gonna, I like it over there better. Better place, no, you don't do that. So, according to him Heindel, he says he was swimming on the other end of the pool, a hot tub is on one end of the pool. He was on the other end of the pool. She was in there alone, not Matthew. Marcus was in the woods, Willard was in the woods. And he said that's when Willard came back from the woods and found her unresponsive. And the two of them started performing CPR together. So, there's two fucking witnesses here. There's two people and one dead person. So, they waited 45 minutes to call 911. Jesus. 'Cause they thought she was faintly breathing. So, you don't call an ambulance? 'Cause you think what? Mainly. You'll fix it. Yoga guy is gonna fix it. And the fucking car sales, when do you do? Cokes are back to reality with a deal on a new Kia? What the fuck are you talking about? It's not gonna happen, man. No. So, later he said the real reason he went into the woods, 'cause they're like, we're not buying this firewood thing, 'cause this is the firewood. He said the real reason he went into the woods is he was trying to recreate a scene from a documentary called The Last Shaman. And while on drugs, the lead guy in this documentary takes part in rituals that are like being buried alive. So, you get like, you know, you bury yourself later on. The experience of it? Yeah. No. He said that he had told them, "I'm going to the woods to dig a hole." That's what he told them. He said he went into the woods and just laid down and he didn't know for how long, 'cause he was on drugs. He said, "I can't remember anything past her saying, 'Don't leave me.'" That's all he remembered. So, he said, when he emerged, he said, "Did you hear anything? Did you see anything?" He said, "I didn't hear anything. I could see Marianne slumped down with her chin up to her nose underwater." Chin up to her nose. From her chin to her nose in the water. Underwater, yeah. So, during all this, the body cam video from the cops, Clark Kindles there and he said, "I'm sitting down there and points to the end of the pool, hanging out, swimming at the other end of the pool, shallow end," and the deputy says, "And she's in the hot tub." And he says, "Yeah." And he said, "Do you know at what point you noticed she wasn't visible?" And he said, "I never saw that she wasn't visible, but I got up, I guess, when he was coming back." So, he saw Lillard and I guess he got up then. Lillard said he pulled her out of the hot tub, placed her on the pool deck, dropped her. She suffered a gas to her forehead. And that's when Heindel walked over. Marcus said, he actually, Marcus says, quote, and he actually said, "Should we call 911?" And they said, "Well, what did you say?" And he said, "I said, 'No, I think she'll be fine.'" Faintly breathing, bleeding profusely from her head. This should be good. Anything he says though, he's gotten his psychology license ripped from, anything he says do the opposite. That's the other thing, yeah. I mean, he might probably try to fuck you and give you weed. I don't know. Right. So, the gash- Should be fine, back your ass up to me real quick. Yeah, just do that. So, they would take turns giving her CPR, which I don't know if one's got better CPR or what. So, we're unsure exactly how much time passed before they called 911, but it seems like 45 minutes to an hour, which is a long time. But- Too long. Once the investigators get there, they think that she's been dead for at least two hours before they help arrive. So, the timelines are all out of whack, but when everybody's on ecstasy, time is a really, really mushy concept at that point. Yeah, it can go anyway. What is time? What is time anyway? Let's dig into that next thing you know, six hours later. So, Georgia Bureau of Investigation agent, Michael Mabin, he said that investigators began trying to piece together what happened. Mabin said Lillard was naked and wrapped in a towel when the first deputies and EMTs arrived at what they described as a quote, very weird scene. This whole thing is very weird. Yeah. - Yeah. - Lillard, this is the most fucking weird thing. Lillard, once they look at the body cam footage later on of all this going on, they see some disturbing shit on there if they didn't notice what they got there. - Did you see what was happening? - Lillard was helping to do CPR to try to revive her, but the footage from the officer's body cameras also show Lillard touching Marianne's vagina at the same time. He was trying to finger her back into consciousness, which I don't know if that's how that works. - What? - I mean, yeah, the clip's a magical thing, but it's not that fucking magical. - It's pretty amazing, but I don't think that's the button. It's not a reset button. - Yeah, it's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's not a fucking go in the back. - It's not a reboot, yeah. - Yeah, it's like a, like a teddy ruckspin. - See, for the windows down? - You gotta get a fucking paper clip and go into the, do a hard reset. I think that's what he was trying to do. - What a weirdo. - Yes, that's fucking wild. So the deputies want to separate these two idiots for further questioning, okay, at the time. So they put Marcus in a squad car since it's Clark's house. You know, they put Marcus outside. - He said him in the living room. - The body cam says, Marcus, okay, policy says I have to put you in cuffs anytime I transport you, okay? So place your hands behind your back for me. Well, it doesn't have to be behind your back though. That's a, yeah, an interesting place to put him. - So that he cooperates there totally. He's like, yeah, no problem, you know, whatever. Meanwhile, Heindel, they're having a harder time with him, getting him to cooperate here, Clark. A deputy on body cam, two Heindel said, quote, "I done told him three times to stay off the pool, "but he's insistent to have his lawyer. "Something, something is not right here, bro. "That's what he said to another cop. "I done told him." - I want to practice my cannonball. - I want to get the fuck out of the pool. It's my turn. (laughing) - I'm gonna race one of you. - Bet that thing doesn't do well in the water. - Oh man. So a deputy says to Heindel, wait right there. It's a crime scene now, wait right there. And then again, I asked you to wait back there, sir. And Heindel says, what? And the deputy says, I asked you to wait back there. So telling him where to stand away from shit. So then the deputy watches Clark get a phone call and wander away from them off, but away from the body and the crime scene. So they're like, fine, go wander around your front yard and talk on the phone. Oh, he gives a shit. So the report says, "Lillard Cooperative" complies with requests to give him, he gives him the cop's his cell phone, get Heindel finds Mary Ann's, gives that to them as well. - That's good, yeah. - Cooperative. Meanwhile Heindel sitting on the front porch while things are being processed. Detectives find a pair of glasses on the pool deck, blood-soaked spots of grass and a silver woman's bracelet. - In the grass? - Yeah, which all seem like there would be indications of a struggle happening outside of the hot tub. - Right. - So that's interesting. The deputy coroner Steve Chappell asked if detectives had Shockley's driver's license, but they didn't have it. So they went to ask Heindel where her purse was when they turned the look, Heindel's not on the porch anymore. And the front door is open. So they're like, "Oh, for fuck's sake." So the deputy into, as they're looking, trying to get back in the door, and they said, "We got a dead woman." And then said Sheriff's office, Sheriff's office, "Where is he?" And then they heard a loud muffled bang. And you hear, he's in the bathroom, in the bathroom. He fucking went upstairs and blew his brains out with a shotgun. - What? - Blew his fucking brains all over his bathroom with a shotgun. - What is happening? - While the cops are there and wrote a suicide note first. Went up there, banged out a quick fucking note, blew his brains out. - Now, now we got a thing. - Yes. Now Mary Ann's sister said it tainted the case 100% because there weren't two people there that could say what happened, now there's only one. - Yeah. - Marcus said, quote, and I just said, "Well, he had to have done it. "If that pill made me so stupid, "maybe it made him for once in his life a violent guy." I don't know. So yeah, he self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head in the master bathroom. Then they bring in Sheriff Bill Massey. Let's bring in the sheriff now. - Oh boy. - And he said, "The feeling at this scene "was totally different than any I'd ever been to. "It was a very, very strange feeling "that everybody noticed here." He said, "They determined that the scene "looked a little inappropriate "as far as just a pure drowning incident "due to some blood at the scene "and the demeanor of the people at the scene. "You know, one of them blowing his brains out "in all as a weird demeanor." That doesn't happen often, does it? - The ecstasy really fucked things up first. And then the old Winchester finished it off. - Shit got real weird here, real quick. Pills and guns. So then he goes on to say, "I don't know how to explain this to people "who are not in our business, "but when we first arrived at the crime scene, "there was just something about it that was not right. "It was just sort of a bizarre, different kind of case." So they turn over everything to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. The sheriff remembers walking through Heindel's house when he spotted what turned out to be a handwritten suicide note on the kitchen counter. Here we go. It says, "I'm very sorry. "I don't know what happened with Marianne, "but it was on my watch and I'm so sorry "for the family and friends." And then the rest of it is just instructing his heirs on what to do with his shit. - So his grief's stricken in the moment? - I feel bad, too guilty. I don't know. When they asked the sheriff, why was Clark allowed to go back into his home? I think it was on 48 hours, they asked the sheriff. And he said, "I'll be up front with you. "It was a violation of our policy and procedures. "I'll be honest with you, pure incompetence on our part." - Wait, do we certainly screw the pooch? - Yeah. It's not like there was a hundred people there. There was two people there. We generally like to make 'em feel like they're arrested, but we'll have this guy just run around, well, tally whack around. It's a fucking crime scene. How hard is it to gather up a 69-year-old man who's on ecstasy? - Wow. - It wasn't like-- - It's probably tough. - It wasn't like there was like 50, 14-year-olds or something like a cop. - I don't know, a couple of 'em slipped away. There's one guy. The other one's in drops in the car. - Yeah, but it's easier. - One. - Wrangle him than it is a bunch of chicken. - Yeah, exactly. They had one person who wasn't either handcuffed or dead at the scene and let 'em walk around. - Yeah, and they literally told him 30 times, stay there, stay there. Fuckin' somebody, cuff him and hold his hands. - Yeah, something. So they said, "How big of a mistake was it?" And the sheriff said, "Oh, it was a terrible mistake." - Well, no, she'd never made it. - Yeah, he said, "Terrible mistake. "It was a dramatic error in this case." And the Marianne's sister said, "Made no sense. "Marianne was intelligent. "Like, even if she was drinking in the hot tub, "I could not see this happening." So they bring in Marcus, 'cause he's the only guy they could talk to at this point. - Right. - And the agent, Michael Maben, says, "During the time that I guess you were "in the back seat of the car, me and the cop car, "Clark went inside his house and he committed suicide "inside his house." And Marcus said, "Oh shit, you're kidding." As he didn't know, he was in the car. They didn't tell him shit. Well, tell the other guy, too, he wanna know. They said, "Nope, I'm not kidding. "Why would he do that?" And Marcus said, "I don't know. "Maybe that'll shed some light, but I can't believe this. "I would never in a million years guess he would do that." Then he says, "There's a pretty good chance "that Clark got in that hot tub with her." Just volunteers that. He said, "I'm gonna say there's a very high chance of that. "I mean a really high chance." And they said, "Help me out, man. "Do you think he did something to her?" And Marcus said, "I don't think she would have did it "to herself, and I know I didn't do anything." So the sheriff said, "Losing a psychology license, "the death of a young son," 'cause his son died at six years old, high clerks, "had him depressed for years, the embarrassment of it all, "and it happened at his house." Now, by the way, the last shaman documentary, 'cause that's gonna come up again quickly here, was a guy who went into the Peruvian jungle and spent 10 months going from shaman to shaman and just to figure out a cure for his depression, I guess. - Taking like, "I was scared," or, "I was scared." - Yeah, I was scared to try that, a bunch of other shit. - Jesus. - So, Lillard then says he and Clark Kindle discussed that film that night, as a matter of fact. And Lillard, it says, "Hindle found some hydrongia branches." - What is that? - And shook them around Marianne's body. Like, they tried to perform one of the ceremonies from the documentary, see if they could bring her back to life. - When she was dead? He tried this? - Yeah, when she's laying there, they're doing CPR, they're like, "Well, compressions aren't working." - What about a willow? - About, just, "surrender." - What? - The sheriff said it was ritualistic or a seance or something. He, Baldwin County Sheriff guy, he doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. Lillard says this, "I'm a lot of shit, but a liar ain't one. "Is that right?" - He then went on to say that he has a feeling that Heindle, while Lillard was off in the woods, joined Shockley in the hot tub. Lillard referred to Heindle as a cool philosopher guy and said, "He's a flirty guy. "He's gonna take a shot at seducing Marianne." He said he later knew the whole episode sounded like a lifetime movie. He gets that. No, lifetime movies aren't this interesting. - No, this is date line. - Yeah, this is, lifetime is your husband's sheets and now that woman wants to kill you and your children. That's, this is a way different movie. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about a sponsor that can keep you safe, simply safe. - Simply safe.com, S-I-M-P-O-I, safe.com. - Absolutely. 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Your adventure awaits. - This is a weird soundtrack and it's different. - Yeah, this is like an indie movie. - Right. - He said that if he were to be charged with a crime for anything, it should be for being negligent, for not rushing Shockley to the hospital. But yeah, that should definitely be something. - That should certainly be there. - So then he also said, people don't blow their brains out for no reason. Something happened to this woman and you look fishy, meaning Clark, who was dead. He said, I agree 100%. If I did it, I just go ahead and tell you. If I knew, I would tell you. Lillard then said when he was doing CPR on Marianne, he was being very affectionate with her. - Affectionate? - What was her Clark? - Lillard said Clark was. He said he was telling me how beautiful she was and that it appeared that he was kissing her instead of doing CPR. Will you be able to tell if her chest is going up and down 'cause you're blowing anyway? He said, wow, my instincts tell me that he had sex with her. He said he was whispering sweet nothings in her ear in between CPR breaths. You know, like live, don't die, please. Stuff like that maybe, I don't know. That's my guess. - Live, God damn you, that's hot. - Live, please, don't die. Do it for your children, things like that. I can't get him real turned on. So, Lillard went on to say that he picked up on a sense that Clark was attracted to Marianne. He said he kept talking about how beautiful she was over and over. So, they asked Lillard if he thought that Clark was French kissing the unconscious. Tongue or no tongue, what are we talking about here? - What was happening here? - And Lillard said, I think so. I think so. So, yeah, he said, and then they said, do you think maybe that's why he killed himself? And he said, there has to be some reason. So, yeah, why not? Now, Marcus's son here, he used to go to Clark as a psychologist. - Really? - And likes him better than his father. - Yeah, ouch. - He said, Carson said, I did love Clark and I still do. And I think I didn't realize how much he meant to me until he was gone. He said that his father, on the other hand, he blames his father for all of this that's going on with Marianne. He described his father as a malignant narcissist, which is rough. And he said he was headed toward destruction and was determined to bring somebody with him. Then we have somebody also, an ex-girlfriend comes up and the sheriff says it this way. I was at my desk at the office and a young lady called me extremely upset. And she said, sheriff Massey, Marianne Shockley didn't drown. She said, Marcus choked her to death. Now, this is before there's any medical report too. So we don't even know how she died. The sheriff said, she said the same thing happened to me a long time ago when I was at a low point in my life. And he choked her when they were having sex. So yeah, sheriff said, I asked if she'd come in and give a statement and she did. And she said that Marcus has a choking fetish and it was a regular part of their sex life. Which is a lot of people are into choking, by the way. Women and men. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big thing. So the agent said, how many times do you think you and Marcus had sex? She said maybe a hundred times more than that. I don't know. They were together for a long time. It was a relationship, sure. Think about, try to put a number on how many times you've had sex with someone you've been with for more than three, four years. Impossible. I mean, fucking who knows? I don't know. You can probably get a calculator and figure it out if you-- In my marriage probably less than-- That's easy to figure out. I was married. That's way easy to figure out after the first kid's born. That's a really easy one. Well, how many kids do I have? Three, well, two, two more. That's an embarrassing equation I'd rather not talk about. Oh, man. So they said, how many times do you think choking was involved? And she said, I would say at least 30 times. So a third of the time, choking. She said that the choking was consensual. She liked it too. But one time, she says, Lillard went too far. She said, he choked me long enough where I lost consciousness and my body crumpled to the floor. You were fucking somebody in a standing position while choking them. Maybe she was on top. And he held her so tight she fell off the bed. I guess, but if you're on top, can't you just lift up a little bit? No, if you've got a hold of them. How long is his arm is what I'm getting at? How long is his arm? She could fucking bend her back. Bend backwards. He's not a fucking-- You've got a good grip. He's not a specter gadget. And if you're holding someone tight enough to where they can't move-- That's a criminal act at that point. Yeah, but that's what he's probably doing. Yeah, it had to be, right? That's why she had-- that's why she went on-- That's crazy, though. Too much. That's a weird fucking thing. Marcus said, it was really more of a place to put your hands for control. There's also tits. They're nice. Yeah, there's lips. I like those. Pips and tits. Yeah, a couple of legs there. I don't know. Just a little light pressure to the carotid arteries. That was really about it. There was never any pressure there. And he touches his throat and said, the pressure was here. It was not that. It was blown way out of proportion. He said he only tried choking Mary Ann one time. It wasn't that night that she died. And she said she didn't like it. And it never came up again. And they've been together for two years fucking. And he was like, oh, she's a no-go on the choking. She doesn't like that, yeah. She's not into it. Now her sister says, I believe they were having sex, and he choked her, and that's what caused your death. That's what they think. Yeah, but interesting. The autopsy comes back. Medical examiner said it was, quote, a classic case of strangulation. Really? That's what-- not a drowning, not the head injury, strangulation, busted blood vessels in her eyes, and nothing to do with drowning. She said died as a result of his exphyxia due to strangulation, manner of death, best classified as homicide, obviously. So it's at that point where they're like, we got to talk to Marcus again, because this was like a few days later. Yeah. And they said, strangulation is what killed her, OK? And you need to tell me what the hell happened, because we need to talk about it. And Marcus said, I don't know. That's in the woods counting the stars. I was laying down. The agent said, yes, you do. He said, if I knew I would have told you immediately. And he said, no, you're lying. And then Marcus said, so I need to get a lawyer at this point, because I mean, you already got your mind made up. You already got your mind made up. And then the agent said, yep, I do. Well, you're under arrest for murder. I'll tell you that. So you've got a lawyer getting anybody you want, but you're definitely going in cuffs right now. So yeah, there he goes. One day afterwards, where they charge him, as soon as they got the autopsy report, they were like, well, you like to choke. She's been choked. That's that. It's pretty easy, yeah. Which is not evidence still though. No, it's a pretty good reason and justification to arrest, but you better get some fucking evidence. You need some evidence, yeah. He's charged with murder by strangulation, concealing a death and aggravated assault. And so he said that the reason he's charged with concealing a death is because he and Tyndall both made calls to other people to get CPR advice and just general, how do you save somebody from dying advice? Oh, before they called 9-1-1, and now they're thinking it was about two hours before they called 9-1-1. So another ex-girlfriend told talk to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and they said, quote, she would describe him as being very rough and violent during sex. She would be a choker to unconsciousness. When she told him to stop, Lillard had replied, quote, shut up and take it. Yikes, that is. I think that is a quote from a Danny Masterson trial, I believe, it was rough right there. Wow. That is a transcript from hell, is what that is. Yikes. Five other women have since said that they, too, were choked during sex with Lillard. That's what he's into. Though not at all had-- not all of them had passed out, and they were all described as consensual encounters as well. But they're saying, yes, he's definitely-- it's not just one lady saying he's into choking. A lot of people says he's into choking. None of them told, they all described him. Now, kindle though, they quote, quote, they all described him as normal, boring sex. That's how you want to be remembered. Great, thanks. If I was on trial, I want every one of those to come up. Just vanilla is fuck, man. I don't know. Missionary, just, I mean, missionary, five pumps, and he's gone, that's all. I never came. Does that give you an idea? We barely touched while it was going on. It was very-- He finished every time. Real fast. Real fast, and that's all that happened. So that's a normal, boring sex. So they're saying that Mabin, the Georgia investigator guy, he said, in my opinion, when a grown man puts his own hands around someone's neck and squeezes, to me, that's intent to take somebody's life. Oh, dude. Come down now. Yeah, we've heard so many people who are into being choked and choking. So you can't say that. How boring is that, man, sex? Oh, my God. They said that the only evidence that points to Lillard, really, is he had texted friends asking, quote, how to get somebody back to life. How do you reanimate a court? How do you do that? Anybody-- oh, you've got some leaves? OK, I will try that. A car battery? Very weird. And they said it's a bizarre kind of case. And they talk about, in her documentary, her obituary, people said that they were in shock. She made a huge impact. Marianne gave the industry a lot of credibility. With the FDA, the CFIA, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, insects are a much newer phenomenon in North America. We looked to experts like Marianne to help with food safety, the normalization of the edible insect industry. Marianne was a trailblazer and a pioneer. So he is indicted formally. Felony murder aggravated assault and voluntary manslaughter and reckless conduct. Now, he's ordered "held without bond" because he's on probation, remember? Right, 15 years. He's right in jail immediately. So they said that Heindel had told the cops before he blew his brains out that he and Lillard thought she was going to come around. Then, Lillard said they talk about how Lillard had said that he thought maybe Marianne was faking it and playing around with them at first. For two hours, she was faking it. So long, yeah. Yeah, so that's a little ridiculous. They said that he said he just did not know what happened to Marianne, but it happened on his watch so he couldn't live with it. That's what the suicide note said. He said he'd had a good life and it was time for him to go. They found the leaves that they were trying to bring her back to life with scattered clothes, bloody towels, Bud Light and Corona bottles, all sorts of shit here. So they said that they were shook the flowers over her body for some sort of ceremonial right. And the agent said that's what they were doing instead of calling 911. Yeah, they learned it from some kind of documentary. Jesus Christ. Later on, Marcus will say the devil was at work. I mean, everything that he could have possibly done to line this thing up to make it confusing and deceitful. It was all done there. Deceitful. The he is the devil he's talking about, by the way. Like he's just a fourth person that was there that night. So, and he just disappeared when he saw the lights and heard sirens. No, shit. Then he says, there is good and there is evil. And that night, evil came to play, which is a great name of an episode. So thank you, Mr. Marcus. So the trial comes around and they talk about everything we've talked about, the choking, the waving flowers over her and, you know, all of this shit, all the inappropriate actions. But everything that Heindel and Lillard both did, Heindel's not here. So it's all going on him. All going on Lillard for right or wrong, whatever. You know, even things that, whatever. So they, when they're picking the jury, they said that this is going to be a wild, behind closed doors kind of case here. So are you ready for that? And they asked about questions to the jurors about, quote, spanking or other fetishes as well. To see what they knew and what they didn't know. How they all giggle. Oh, yeah, they were. They said that this might include talk of sexual behavior that's outside your comfort zone. And could you consider that with an open mind? One juror said, I could, but I wouldn't want to. Which is a great response. That's hilarious. Very Georgian of him. Yeah, I wouldn't want to. They figure out five guys are nine men, five women, two alternates, you know, the alternates and the whole deal there. The prosecutor saying, yeah, they think she was, he's now saying that they thought she was faking it, blah, blah, blah. And they said that this suicide note clearly showed that Heindel wasn't guilty for that. He just felt, he was just a good person who felt bad had happened on his watch. Okay. Which, that's a weird thing to think immediately. Right out of the gate just runs upstairs for that, that lends more questions than answers, man. That's what I'm saying. And the defense attorney has the exact opposite. They're like, I don't know. There's two people, one of them goes and blows his brains out and said, I'm sorry what happened to Marianne. Look at him, probably, I would say. They say Marcus Lillard is not guilty, his defense says obviously. The sister here said that Shockley's teenage daughter, Marianne's daughter didn't want Lillard around their house and that Marianne would have to go to Millageville to visit him instead. And that had, she'd also said that Marianne had told her that they had lots of sex when they saw each other because they didn't see each other for spans of time when she had to go places. So yeah, they said also they're a guy, one of the cops said their CPR actions were very sporadic and that, quote, one handed CPR didn't seem appropriate. What? They're also on ecstasy at the same time. Yeah, that's a good point, there's corona bottles, literally everywhere. Yeah, and they also said that he said at one point, we should have called y'all to start with, meaning the cops and the ambulance, that's true. So, but they're trying to, they bring in his ex-wife, who's a respiratory therapist, and she said that, you know, she heard about this, she said she heard about this from her husband, ex-husband, because he called her that night. They've been divorced for more than 20 years, but he called her that night in the middle of the night and she said from his voice, she could tell that he was under the influence of something, he was contradicting himself and mumbling and it was just not his normal conversation. He was asking, do you know how to get her back to life? What's the quickest way to get her back to breathing, is what he said, because she's a respiratory person. Yeah. So they got brought in basically everybody he talked to on the phone that night. One of the persons said a massage therapist took the stand and told of Sunday night stoner parties at Heindel's place. Or they'd drink and get together and play bongos and fucking have a Matthew McConaughey kind of evening, you know what I mean? Very hemp and tie-dye nights. That's right. The medical examiner says the injuries were classic textbook, manual strangulation and all of that. By the way, Marianne had a blood alcohol level of .11 at the time of her death and had ecstasy in her system as well. Barely drunk. Barely drunk. They bring in a shitload of choked women who've coming in. Yeah, a lot of them said he's a nice guy and all that kind of thing. They said when he did drugs, including crack cocaine, their sexual encounters began to be more extreme. She said when he was on drugs, nothing was off limits. Yeah, I said one that, you know, he was choking her and that sort of thing. So yeah, that's what they bring in to talk about it. Every one of his sexual partners, he's ever choked to talk about how long did he choke you for what? Yeah, God damn it. Wow. So they also, another woman said that once in a while he would do it, but never too hard and not too often. You know, that sort of thing. One woman said she briefly lost consciousness once, but it didn't frighten her. She thought it was kind of hot. Who are you? It's like, yeah, where'd she come from? That didn't scare you? No, she was like, phew, oh, I thought I was dead, hot. Yeah, you came to and you were fucking, oh my God. Another guy they brought on the stand, Johnny Bud Mitchell, an automotive detailer with the car lot. He said, quote, we were both pretty popular with the women. The detail. Yeah, he said they had taught conversations about choking women and that this guy told him that, you know, they said, isn't it true that you said you're gonna kill some woman if you went on choking them during sex? And he said, I probably did say that. Yeah, probably. Yeah, that seems all right. All of Heinrich's girlfriends, like we said, very vanilla. Here is a letter from jail that he wrote to somebody. Okay, here is the simple truth. Truth about what happened to Marianne. Feel free to share the truth. The lies are over. So Marianne's plans changed around noon on Saturday, May 11th, 2019. We were set to leave for Ecuador that Wednesday. We stopped by clerks. We had just had a six pack and we brought weed. We shot the breeze inside for a while and then it went to the porch to smoke and listen to music. We all had a normal buzz, no big deal. Got there around 730 or 845 or nine. We were ready to leave when I asked Clark about some acid or LSD, one of our friends said he had, but he had hit it because he was scared of it. I wanted to take the acid to Ecuador to the trip. Drug dogs won't catch it. So he says, no, I lost it, but I have some ecstasy. Marianne and I look at each other and not okay. She wouldn't have smoked crack cocaine, but she likes mushrooms, LSD and ecstasy, even though it would have been a long time since she'd done anything except shrooms. Her words, as she took the piece, maybe one third or one fourth of the pill were, oh my gosh, it's been so long. Oh boy. He said Clark took his one fifth size piece and then he gave me a whole one. 15 minutes later, I could barely speak English. He said that Clark was a gentleman and respectful. He got into the pool to give us privacy while we were in the hot tub or at least be alone. He said, it's a long story, but some stuff I had been watching gave me the bright idea to go into the woods and dig a hole and bury myself. She said that, he said, she said, baby, I need you back in this water now. And he said, I'll only be a minute. So he said, he think he woke up in the woods a thousand yards away, 90 minutes later and came back and saw her. He said, I've never heard a soul, not even derogatory term during sex. I don't know what he's there. He said, he does say that he believed in enlarged heart condition that Shockley was unaware of that was discovered during her autopsy, combined with the drugs in the heat of the hot tub may have caused a heart attack. No dude, that's not, that's how it happened. He said also she may have choked on her own vomit. None of these things to explain anything. That didn't happen. So there's also some shorts they talk about, they found nearby, they were trying to figure out, that doesn't matter. Closing here, defense says no evidence was put up ever that said that Shockley put his hands, or that Marianne, that he put his hands on Marianne. He's told the jury, the state has not proven that Marcus put his hands around her neck and strangled her. They didn't prove their burden. The prosecutor said, you know, this, there is a liar in this courtroom and it's the defendant. So, four days of testimony, jury deliberates for about 35 minutes and comes back. - Oh God, oh God. - They find him not guilty of anything. - Oh my God. - Not they improve shit. - They had nothing. - They had nothing. The judge says though, I revoke your probation for the balance of your sentence, which runs through October 30th, 2030. - Oh shit. - You'll have to do as much of that as the parole board orders you to serve. They could set him free, they could make him serve a few years, or they could hold him until 2030. It's up to them now. - A juror said the prosecution had an uphill battle. I don't know if they were rushed to take it to trial or had to take it to trial, but they didn't have a lot. - They had nothing. - They had nothing. They even, they said that a bunch of different, they said all the sexual partners they brought in, they said, well, didn't sit well with the jurors. They said it was sort of overkill, the jury was over it. Why make that many women have to get up there and testify? Two or three was enough, we get the picture. - How many did they have? - Yep, and they also, another big one in closing arguments, the prosecution referenced a supposed letter that Marianne wrote, even though the letter was never entered into evidence. And they said, as far as us jurors went, the letter never existed. He does think that Lillard was a narcissist and a professional manipulator, but they didn't feel comfortable convicting him a murder because he seems like an asshole. Yeah, they said, unfortunately, without a reasonable doubt, we could not say that Marcus Lillard did this. Somewhere in there, he was probably liable for something and needed to be reprimanded. I wish they had given us more charges to choose from. And they had pulled back the concealing of death among the charges, they didn't indict him on that. They said they would have convicted him of that, but that wasn't an option. So there he is. Her family says, we very much wanted justice for Marianne Shockley, we hate this, nobody deserves this. If there was justice to be served, we wanted it. But we could not go to sleep at night knowing that we did 100% what we did. We can go to sleep at night, or we could not go to sleep at night knowing that we did 100% of what we were supposed to do and convicting Lillard of something we had no stone cold truth of. And something terrible happened that night, otherwise Clark wouldn't have killed himself. And I'd really, I don't know that I want to know what happened. I don't know, but something fucking weird, and there's only one guy left. Yeah. And he's not going to say. If only simply safe had their cameras there, we could have been good. Unbelievable. Shit, but I would, I'm curious if this is some footage you want to see. - Truly. - Or don't want to see, but want to know. So there you go, everybody. Milageville, Georgia. Thank you so much for checking that out, right? - It's right. - Yeah, it's fucking wild. Yeah, you know what, I take it back, Cody Mob. You were. - It's right. - Shit's real over there. You'll die in a hot tub. That's some real shit. So, shut up and give me murder.com. Follow us also on social media. We are @smalltownmurder on Instagram @smalltownpot on Facebook. Follow those. Got patreon.com/crimeandsports this week. Personal ads at the Weirdo Collier Brothers. - Can't wait. - We have all of that. Plus the virtual live show 420. It's available for two weeks after that. Get your tickets right now. Get your tickets for all the live shows. Come hang out with us. Keep doing it and until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. - Bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey, Prime members. You can listen to "Smalltown Murder" early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. 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