RockneCAST

Dr. David Coyle on the Joro Spider (#254, 9 Oct. 2024)

Dr. David Coyle joins the RockneCast to discuss the joro spider, a venomous and invasive species that is currently spreading throughout the Southeastern United States. He is currently an Associate Professor of Entomology at Clemson University in the extension division.

Dr. Coyle will discuss the spiders, how venomous it is, how it got here, how it "flies", and its anticipated reach in the United States. We also discussed a possible entomological enemy that might reduce the populations, but more research its needed to determine that answer. Dr. Coyle is at the cutting edge of this area of research.

We'll also discussed his career path to becoming a PhD in Entomology along with his current research on the joro spider.

Dr. Coyle and I played football for one year at Luther College and we also graduated in 1997 from Luther College. Loved doing this one!!

Broadcast on:: 09 Oct 2024
Audio Format:: other

Dr. Dave Coel. Welcome to the Rachne cast. Can you believe that hundreds of thousands of people that are going to be listening to this particular episode? I can't, Rachte. Thanks for having me, man. I can't believe that we have reconnected after probably decades. It's just surreal sometimes, you know? Well, that you and I share, we were part of a football powerhouse, Luther College in Northeast Iowa. It's pretty much the Oklahoma of Division III football, isn't it? Yeah, everybody knows about it. I don't think we need to talk too much. You know, when you say go on Ours, people automatically know what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. So friends with the Rachte cast, you are in for a real treat. Dr. Dave Coel, I have followed his career in the world of entomology for several years, primarily via Facebook. But I've also been reading about a national news like CBS, Breitbart, ABC News, all the big outlets on this flying Jorro spider. And I was reading this and I did the clickbait. And I thought, Oh my gosh, there's a venomous flying spider out there. I need to be really, really afraid. And then I saw Dr. Dave Coel from Clemson University was assuring the masses. And so I thought, Oh my gosh, I know Dr. Dave Coel and I have to have him on the Rachney cast. So before we get into the Jorro spider, that's kind of the tease for later on in this Rachney cast. David, what I want to know is how did you become a card carrying, patched in professional entomologists? How did you get involved in this world of bugs? I mean, life's funny, man. And sometimes you just go where it takes you. And I think, you know, at all, getting back to the origin story, right, you know, when I was a little kid growing up in Southeast Minnesota, this was, we were children of the eighties, which meant you were essentially feral. Most of the day, right, the eighth breakfast, you walked, you went outside, your parents didn't really know where you were. And then you came back when you were hungry, and then that was kind of all that right. So during that time, I lived in the country and we farmed. And so when I wasn't doing farm duties tours and whatnot, I was just riding my little BMX bike around the state forest that was next to us. And I got this big interest in insects and, you know, didn't have, I kept them in jars. My parents were very supportive. It was in 4H had the prize winning cow, like most card carrying, you know, rural kids, but I also took an insect watching and love that. Thanks. Still got the trophy back behind me too. So it's still there. And then, you know, high school came, I moved to the next town over. It wasn't cool to be in a bug. So that sort of got pushed out for a bit because high school, you know, high school is one of those. But then when I got to Luther, I went through a couple of different majors. You know, we were talking earlier about the liberal arts education. I went through a couple of different majors, and then I finally stumbled on biology. And it just so happened that Dr. Kirk Larson, who is now at Luther, I think he might even be the chair of the biology department, became my mentor. He was an entomologist. And he and I clicked from the get go sort of reinvigorated my love of insects and entomology. And it was one of the things I thrived in. I did well in. And it just sort of springboarded me to a master's degree at Iowa State. And let's jump in here. Let me jump in here. You would mention this question of, you know, both of you and I are liberal arts majors. And you would mention that when you were a freshman, you had no idea that eventually you would become a professor or a associate professor or a doctor of entomology. Friends, I there's a book called range by David Epstein that I hope people get a chance to check out. And basically, it's about the power of the liberal arts in the sense that there are all these different domains. And you would mention there is a couple of other topics that you thought you might be interested, but did kind of work out or wasn't the right fit. What was kind of the aha moment where one, you hit the liberal arts, you realize those aren't your career tracks. But this world of entomology, this is the fit. Do you remember kind of a moment where you're like, yes, I love this. And I could see myself doing this as a career. Yeah, I mean, when I first got there, you know, I think I was going to be an elementary ed major. So I thought it'd be cool to teach. And I don't even think I took it to class. I think I met with with whoever was good at even my advisor. And we were looking at the list of courses that I was going to take. And I just thought these looked dumb. Like, I'm not going to like any of these fricking things at all. And then so so I can just see you teaching a bunch of third graders. I'm sure you would have been really great. But you know, it's funny now, like, I'm a youth sports coach. And I basically do what I'm not Dr. Daveing. I'm like teaching these kids all time, which is more or less thinking. Anyway, I probably same day I changed to a math meter. So I like math as good at math and all that. And I think about two weeks in, in that first calculus class, they just stopped using numbers. And it was just all live symbols. And I had no idea what was going on. And Brad Steinbach, still a good friend of mine. Oh, yeah, I was just tiny. Like, I swear, he grabbed me by the shot by the arm and he drove me through that class. And I got like a C minus. At that point, I thought, if I'm going to see like this in calculus one, probably math meters, not my thing. Right. So so then I just, you know, switched over to biology. And it's just sort of Dr. Kevin Kraus was my first advisor. And then he moved up into a dean, Larsen came, and then he was my advisor. And it just sort of, I don't know, I just kind of rediscovered the passion for insects that I pushed down because high school is, you know, high school is high school. And it was just all of a sudden, it was like okay to be into bugs again. Right. No, it's not okay to be into bugs in small town, America, technically. You're not going to be like your days and confused episodes and say, yeah, I'm a bug guy. You want to go up with spiders? Especially when you moved to a new town as a sixth grader, like that is the most awkward possible thing to happen. So like, but anyway, when Larsen became my advisor, like bugs are cool again, I love this stuff. And I was good at it. It was one of the few things I was, I guess, good at without trying all that to ultimate heart, you know, and so that's sort of how it just sort of happens. Isn't that the advice that when you find something effortless and you're in the flow state, that's the fit, that's the aha. And the other thing I think about is now you are in entomology and you're studying dynamic population growth systems, which I think of as calculus growth problems, calculus one and calculus two. So even though you found that maybe you weren't the best at that particular in terms of scratching out the numbers, your understanding of growth dynamics is now critical in the field that you have right now. Yeah, it makes me wish I had paid more attention than calculus and chemistry to be honest. Exactly. It comes up really handy now. So then you have this mentor, he then kind of gets you into the world of bugs, kind of what happens from there in terms of you graduate from Luther, and then you go to graduate school. What do you do? You go into entomology or forestry. What's your next step? Yeah, both. I ended up getting a master's degree, a master's position at Iowa State University with the late Dr. Woody Hart, and it was a co major in forestry and entomology. Love being in the woods, love bugs, seem like a natural fit. And it was one of those things where I think during my master's, it really became obvious that I liked research and I was good at research and the writing is a big part of it, right? You got to write papers, you got to write. We write a lot in this business, you know, and I was, I enjoyed it, was good at it. A lot of people that don't make it in this business, as I say, just don't like or aren't good at writing. And that's the death knell for academics. If you're good at it, it's not that hard, honestly. So I liked that. Well, the good at it. And then I was able to get a job with the US Forest Service after I would say down in South Carolina. And I took that job because, you know, I grew up in Minnesota, both schools in Iowa, I thought, well, this is my chance to maybe check out another part of the country for just a couple of years. It was a two year, two to four year position. I thought I'll go somewhere for a couple of years, then I'll come back. And so I went to South Carolina and that's where I don't know, just more personal growth. I had a lot of freedom on that project to do a lot of things I wanted to do, super supportive boss. And it was it was a great, great time for me. Four and a half years later, had a decision to make, am I going to stay there and like do a career, or am I going to go back to school? And I think what I decided was I wanted more control over what I did. Right? Like, it's awesome to have a job, but at the end of the day, you got a boss kind of always telling me what to do. There's freedom within that. But but the big decisions aren't really ever yours. Yeah. And I think I wanted the I wanted the ability to decide what I was going to do and guide the way it was going to go and figure out how to answer questions the way I wanted to, not the way the boss wanted to. So back to Wisconsin for a PhD, very respected guy there, Dr. Ken Raffa. And I did my PhD there. In entomology, correct? In entomology. Yeah, but in a forest system. So I've always worked with forest insects, right? So maybe if you can elaborate, are those two, I mean, if you study forestry, you're studying the basis species, if you're studying the basis species, you're studying forestry. And those kind of hair, are they kind of the academic equivalent to peanut butter and jelly kind of have one you got to learn about the other, especially in forestry, or is that just your particular specialty? Yeah, that's my specialty. You know, we have invasive species everywhere in aquatic systems and egg systems and stored grain, like in the veterinarian med like invasive species everywhere. It just so happened that when I went to Wisconsin, I worked on an invasive species for the first time ever, right? I had worked on all native stuff prior to that and just, you know, happenstance. And when I got to Wisconsin, I worked on some native things. And that's where I started learning more about the whole invasive species ecology and that type of thing. Did a bunch of stuff while I was there sort of developed a very broad, broad basis in terms of what I was familiar with and had worked with in terms of lots of different kinds of insects and ticks and that type of thing. So had that and then, you know, it was also in, I can tell you exactly what it was. I believe it was January 2009, we had that really, really cold winter, right? It was absolutely frigid. And I was walking to campus across these railroad tracks in Madison, I had hair at the time and it was everything was frozen, you know, it's like a million needles in your face. And at that particular moment, I thought, "F this, I'm not staying up north. This is a cold moment. I'm done with it," right? Because, you know, when I first moved to South Carolina, like, this is, it was 75 degrees at the end of December. I was moving sweating everywhere. I thought, "This is ridiculous. Who lives here?" And then once I went back, I just thought, "Man, I think I would rather sweat than freeze." And I decided at that point, I was, I was not staying in the Midwest. Most of my mother's chagrin, she was very bummed that I was going to leave again. But, um, better stuff. And then, I got a postdoc at the University of Georgia. And I'm truly cool. And so now you're in extension and Clemson University, which I think is really cool, because the only thing I know about Clemson University is they were really good about five years ago. And they had this guy called Trevor Lawrence. Yeah. But now, evidently, their coach doesn't like transfer a portal, portal, like, kind of, they're kind of chomping at his, at his own event. This is a whole another podcast. That's a whole another podcast. Well, we suffer with Kirk Ferrant. So Clemson fans, whatever issues you have, at least you played offense that's relevant in the last 15 years, the Hawkeyes play from 1972. So, um, we like, we do not know that you have the forward pass. So that's another podcast. That's all I know about Clemson. So maybe you would explain. What was that? You are not alone, man. You are not alone. Most people, most people see that or probably like, oh, I'm pretty good at football. I'm like, that's when the conversation just takes off. That's exactly. So you are now at Clemson University. So I understand that's kind of like an Iowa State or like a land grant type institutions, coupled with the extension service. So you just explain what are the extension and how does it relate to your position at Clemson University? So this is a major is it is a major research university, correct? Yeah. So so you bought a couple of good points. So every every state in the nation has what we call a land grant institution, Iowa State University, University of Minnesota, University of Wisconsin, University of Georgia, Clemson. These are the universities that have three main functions teaching, which obviously teaching research and then extension and extension is the wing or is the thing that takes research information and gives it to the stakeholder. And we use stakeholders, a general term to mean landowners, land managers, politicians, policymakers, anyone that needs information, it is it is my job as an extension specialist to take sort of the high level research, read all those papers, and then take that information and boil it down and transfer it into a delivery that that people can understand that don't do that for a living, right? So I'm the one that takes like, I will read the scientific papers with all the fancy jargon of blah, blah, and I will think, okay, this basically just means if you do this, then this is going to happen, and that's why you need to have a policy that looks like this, right? Or for a landowner like, if you do this, this and this, none of that's going to work, but here's the best thing you can do to keep that tree healthy, right? So my job is to essentially, and I don't like to say dumb down stuff because I don't think I don't think that's the right word. I think boil it down or distill it down to pull out the relevant stuff and use terminology that everyone can understand. That's the whole key is taking science, which has its own language more or less, right? I got to boil that down in a language that my dentist can understand or the guy working at the grocery store or the lady at the toll booth, like my job is to make sure that anyone can understand the stuff that's happening in the research world. That is so cool. So we're finally going to get to the Jorro spider because I'm very afraid and I'm really nervous about this. I think that there are these venomous spiders that are going to attack me. So I got issues. Let's see if we can address this a little. Okay, because I'm just kind of sweating bullets here with this one venomous spider. But maybe I'll get like superpowers if I get that. But in any event, what I love about the extension, I had one term on the Iowa City Council and then I had enough because there are these things called meetings, which I think are one of the worst institutions in the in development of all human kind. And so I said, I did not want to sit for five hours in a meeting. So I didn't do that. But I thought about like, if I ever got more involved in politics, like at the statewide level, how cool would it be if there was a liberal arts extension? If there was a medical extension, I love the concept of extension. And the reason why is one, that's the whole point of higher education, which is benefit of all. But I think so often in this world, people forget like, that's why we're funding these institutions to improve mankind and humankind. Yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. And I love it and making complex things simple. That's exactly what a lawyer does. These are very similar skill sets. So the extension, that is so cool. So in terms of extension, how does that couple do you teach at the university or is it primarily helping other people at the institution? Yeah, my my appointment doesn't have any official teaching responsibility. So I'll guess lecture here and there. But I was actually headed with a 100% extension appointment. So a faculty get these appointments, which basically says here's where your efforts should be. It could be maybe a, we call it a 50 50 split where it's half research, half extension. Or sometimes there's teaching research and extension splits. It all just totally varies. My appointment was 100% extension, which essentially means most of my time needs to go to doing extension stuff. Now, at any large research university, it's understood that you will also do some research. That's just a given part of the whole wheel of academia, right? And this is how fun things. And honestly, this is how we answer questions. So I'll get people saying, Hey, how do I control this new invasive weed? Well, I don't know, let's figure it out, right? So we get a grand student and we do the trials with the chemicals or the fire or whatever, we try to figure this out. So the research I have is very applied. It's very on the ground. It's very management oriented. And so, you know, that is the research program. But I would say three quarters, what I do is just extension work. And this is everything from talking to different groups, handling all the media for anything kind of invasive species in South Carolina. It's a lot of writing. There's writing blog posts and short fact sheets and newspaper articles and helping create billboards and radio spots and all sorts of things you wouldn't even imagine going in. It gets lumped into extension kids, you know, kids stuff at schools, like all of this is just educating people in a very broad sense. That's so awesome. You've been talking about this thing called the Juro Spider. So I'm very afraid of this because I heard, as they say, I seen it on the internet. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen this thing and it has big huge yellow belly and it's gonna fly around and kill me and it's venomous. Yeah. Could you explain to me what is this Juro Spider and how did it get on the media landscape where everyone is so afraid of this spider? Lots of, lots of compact here. All right. So the Juro Spider, it is big and it is colorful. You know, when the females are the big yellow ones, you'll see on TV and they, you know, their bodies can be over an inch long with their legs spread out. It can be, you know, three, three-ish inches, if not more. I mean, they're a big spider. They make big webs. They are originally from China and the Koreas. So they probably just kind of hitchhiked over on one of those big cargo containers as our guests. Savannah, Georgia has the second largest port in the Eastern U.S. in terms of cargo containers that come in, right? So we have tons of these things coming in down here. It was first found in Georgia, right around, right around Athens here back in 2014. Talking to some of the locals, it was probably here three, four years earlier, but we didn't really see huge populations till about 2021 when I first noticed them in my yard. So with every invasive species, which just says, the populations grow slowly for a while and then they just explode, right? When conditions get right, when they get kind of enough, enough reproductive potential there. And so 2021, I saw the first one in my yard. And I remember, you know, I'd walk out there and, but oh, holy crap, is that one of those spiders, right? And I knew the guy that had found it at first. So I took a picture, I sent it to Rick, I was like, hey, man, is this what I think it is? And sure enough. And then there was a few in the yard and then in 2022, holy crap rocking, they were everywhere, everywhere. Like, I've got kind of an edge of the woods by the creek, and it's about 96 meters long. I think I had over 60 Joros spiders there, just like every step step and a half, there was a big web and these were six, eight feet across their massive thing. And so, you know, and then some North Georgia, they were just kind of blowing up. And so now they're all over North Georgia, Western South Carolina, sort of Eastern Tennessee, and then Western North Carolina. And then you've got some disjunct populations, Boston, Pennsylvania, Maryland. So they're, they're certainly spreading, right? Now, one thing, getting to the venomous part, right? So all spiders said venom. So I hate to hate to get you more route up there. But yes, every spider's venomous. That is what they want lakes, that there is venom in there. It's what they use to catch and kill their prey, right? That's how spiders subdue their prey. So the whole key, though, is that there's only a few spiders that have venom that's medically relevant, right? Your brown recluse, your black widow, those bites you, you got to go doctor staff. If any of these other spiders bite you, it's going to be an annoying red swelling bite that probably itches and that's about it. Okay. So yeah, there's venom, but no, it's nothing to be concerned about. We've got zero evidence that they're dangerous to people, zero evidence, they're dangerous to pets. Honestly, probably the biggest thing they do is they're just annoying because they like to put webs on structures. So they'll be on your, your deck, your porch, your carport, patio, you know, so they're certainly in nuisance. And we are seeing a lot of some evidence that where they, you know, they have an ecological impact where you've got a high population of Jorro spiders, all the native spiders just kind of get, get wiped out some. So that's kind of where we're at this point. We're still really early in this whole process. So we're doing a lot of research on it, but it definitely looks like there's an ecological impact, which is one of the characteristics of innovative species. What about this flying part? Because you understand they don't actually have wings and fly around, but they kind of balloon. So just wonder whether you could kind of elaborate on that. Sure can. You know, and this is, this has been one of the biggest causes of my angst as an educator, because every summer and fall you get the flying spider things and people see that great big yellow spider to that end. Have you seen the picture of the spider on the guy's hand? You know, that's, that's the one that's all over almost all the media. It's a picture I do. It's my hand. It gets out there all the time. So they see this. This is your 15 minute stave. Soak it up. What are the vm broken next? What are the media laser clips that the other day said by hand is going viral and it's kind of weird to say. But you know, you see this, they show you this big picture of a yellow spider and they say it flies. And I think people get this impression their head like they're going to be having a picnic and these big inch long spiders are going to like drop down and take their sandwich or take their baby or dog or whatever. Nothing like that happens. What this group of spiders does are called orb weavers and think of Charlotte from Charlotte's web, right? The ones that make kind of the nice round symmetrical ish web. That's an orb weaver. It's just a type of spider. When the eggs hatch in the spring, a lot of the little tiny spider right? They're tiny little things. They'll go up high somewhere. They will release some silk from their little spinner ants. And the wind will take some of them and just carry them away. Okay. To me, that's not flying. Flying is when you propel yourself with a purpose. Birds fly, bats fly. All ballooning is graceful falling. Okay, they get sucked up into the wind. They have no control over where they're going. They're just as likely to land on an awesome spot on the edge of the woods and make a web as they are on the windshield of a car or the middle of a lake, right? So they're not. A flying to me is one of the worst possible terms that can be used, especially when we consider that all orb weavers do this every spring. So every spring, people have no clue. There's probably hundreds of thousands of spiders blooming over them and they have certain times. Nobody knows or cares, right? So that's one of the biggest parts of misinformation that's out there is that people, it makes it seem like the big ones are the ones flying around and that's not at all what happens. It's just the little tiny baby spiders. It just occurred to me. Yeah. If we use coach Hank Strand's word, they matriculate through the air. Does that sound good? That is exactly what they do. And you know, people have said, well, can you see this? And no, they're so small, you can't even see it. The only thing I've ever seen is sometimes after what we call a ballooning event, if you see like a meadow or a lawn where they've landed, you'll just see strands of silk all over the place. Like, you know, two foot long strands of silk and all over the yard covered in dew. That is really the only evidence that I have ever seen, like, oh, a ballooning took place here. That's why there's all these single silk strands everywhere, because all these little spiders just kind of fell down there. And when did it get, you know, so there's this question of the flying venomous spiders. Yeah. When did it really kind of reach, you know, turbo charged in terms of the national media that 2022 is when it really got onto the radar? I think so. Yeah, I think it started a little bit in 2021, but in 2022, the population was super high. And I'd have to look that I think that's when the media really jumped on this thing, right? Because at that point, I think they had spread to some of the bigger like Atlanta got them, you know, like they weren't really in Atlanta right away. And once a big market gets them, oh boy, it is often running at that point. But I'm pretty sure 2022. Yeah, this will be the third the third fall of the Jorro stuff. I'm already like bracing for it, honestly, like, I know it's coming. So yeah, get ready to be on a lot of, you know, radio NPR stations and with it. But so you not only are kind of a Jorro spider expert now, you're also on the cutting edge of research relating to the Jorro spider. And in fact, when I had reached out to you, you would actually show me some pictures of your lab with Jorro spiders. So what's the cutting edge research that you're doing right now? And where do we suit see the Jorro spider in the future? Am I, I live in Austin, Iowa, which is about 10 miles next to the Quora. Do I need to have fear of these things like coming into my yard? Or are they likely to be located to the coast? Tough to tell. It's certainly possible they'll be able to get in there. I think the coast is more than likely going to have them at some point. And we, you know, we looked at where they are in their native range. And we looked at all the 20 environmental variables and then kind of overlaid those on North America. The coast looks like it'd be totally fair game in terms of habitat. The Midwest likely, but you know, it seems like the drier it gets, the less likely they are to get there. So you know, our models show the Great Plains, probably not a high likelihood of them being there. This type of spider lakes it a little more moist, a little more humid. So Iowa, maybe Wisconsin, Minnesota, Great Lakes region, maybe it wouldn't surprise me to put it that way, right? And I think in terms of the research, you know, we're doing three main things. Where are they and where they probably going to go? What are their impacts? That's another big one, whether that's ecological or any type of economic, that type of thing. And then directly related to extension, what can and or should homeowners do if they want to get rid of these things. Because if you look online, there are some really bad ideas out there. I mean, what people recommend to get rid of Joros, like do not use hairspray in the lighter, like that is not that is something that's out there. No one recommends doing that ever. Okay, so you just you may or may not be shocked at what people think are good ideas to get rid of spiders. So we actually took about I think 15 or 16 or 17 of these ideas, some good, some absolutely horrible, but we tested them in experimental fashion. That's those pictures I say, I've got like hundreds of spiders and these clear plastic cups in my lab right now, because we treated them in the field like a homeowner would, we collected them, we're watching them for seven days to check mortality. And at the end, we want to be able to tell people, look, here are things that work. And of the things that work, here are the ones that are safe and legal, right? And that we want to be able to guide people to do the right thing, use the right thing, be safe themselves, do as little harm to their property and environment and themselves as possible while still obtaining their objective, which is typically to get rid of a spider and get that spider off their porch, right? So that's to me, that's one of those exciting stuff we're doing, because it's so directly applicable to stuff we hear all the time. So how do I kill it? How do I make it leave its web, right? Like, how do I get it gone from where it is? These are questions we get so much, and this is kind of a really good extension of stuff we're doing. And I know that there's probably a multi-variable approach to dealing with two questions that I have, what would probably be, I know we're not, I know we're supposed to love all bugs, but I admit that I have squished a few in my lifetime. Same, daddy, daddy legs, and these whole creepy crawly things. I am not going to be common entomologist, Dave. I'm not going to do that, and I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to be loyal, so we're all fine. That was good for you. It's good for your mental and emotional health. But in terms of mitigation, what would it be to be one, knowing that this is a complex issue, and they should check in the Dr. Dave foils work to get the full range of solutions, but would be the one that you would kind of think would be the most effective for purposes of mitigating the problem in someone's yard, for example. I mean, first off, I'm not here to tell anyone how to live their life. So if you don't want to kill something, you don't have to kill it. You can take it with the broom, move it into the woods. It's probably not going to come back on your house. That being said, this is a soft bodied thing, just like a bug, and everyone is stepped on bugs, and you know that is 100% effective. That's all I'm saying. These are not hard to kill, right? You just got to get it to a point where you can physically crush it and it is gone forever. So I tell people, you know, and some people don't want to spray pesticides, which I totally get to, look, these are not hard to squish or kill. You just take a stick on the ground, step on them. It's gone, right? Now, does that mean it's going to be gone for the rest of the season or next year? Rest of the season, maybe next year? No, that'll probably be more of a next year. If you've got them this year, they're going to be there next year, right? So it's one of these things you've got to do, but it's like any pest around your home, you've got to sort of continuously treat, and it's a much bigger deal, I guess, down south than it is in the Midwest. There's not nearly as many home pest issues up there as we have down here with all the stuff that gets in your house, but they're not hard to get rid of. You just have to get rid of them. And there are a number of things you can spray on them. Some are completely effective. Some are just laughable. You know, I've seen everything from Windex to WD-40 to bleach to hairspray to hot water to, you know, rubbing alcohol, like there's all sorts of stuff. I can tell you right now, if it's not an actual insecticide, it's probably not going to work. A lot of those home remedies are just over the calendar recommendations. If you do decide to chemically treat, what would maybe be one that you would recommend and you are not paid by any. No, honestly, the easiest thing to do is go to wherever, you know, a lawn and garden center, and they're going to have a can that's usually like spider ant and roach killer, something like that, you know, and it's typically if you want to get into the label, it's going to be by a friend thread or seven or a meth thread or something like that, or sorry, yeah, seven, seven is a trade name, but any of those probably going to work just fine. They're labeled for spiders. They're they're they come in a nice can with a spray on there that directs where it's going to go. It's not going to get on you. So any of that stuff is probably going to work. Like I said, we're doing the tests right now. So that's going to be your safest option. I think short of like physically just squishing them or removing them is get something that's for that purpose in any container to help apply it that way. And it's interesting with, so that's very helpful to know. And so I think the big thing is is don't panic. It's not going to kill you at worst. It's not like mosquito bite. They're also not going to come in your house, right? This is a type of spider that does not want to be inside because they put webs up where there's going to be a breeze and stuff flying through. So they're not going to crawl in your house. They don't want any part of that. They're going to be outside and they always put their webs like between stuff, right? Because think about Charlotte, right? She had her web up there where things could fly into it. And that's how these spiders operate. So they're going to put webs between like the posts in front of your door or two trees on the edge of the on the edge of the woods or something like that. They've got to have it in the place where stuff can fly into it because that's how they find their meals. You know, it's interesting with invasive species. When I was preparing for this podcast, we always assume that invasive species are bad because they're in an environment where they don't necessarily have any natural predators and they can just kind of run them up among these and then replace the native-born species. Are you guys trying to figure out is there going to be any way to to reduce these populations to such an extent that the native spiders are totally displaced? I mean, what kind of angst is there because these ecosystems are incredibly intricate? Is there a downside to having these native spiders being being wiped out or is that a good thing? Or does it even really matter if the spiders as long as the spiders doing this job of catching bugs and mitigating other types? I mean, obviously there's some ecological purpose for that. Is there downside to having these local species exterminated by these these new spiders? And then is there going to be any like widespread efforts to kind of just totally eliminate the population here? This is like the great philosophical question of invasive species, right? Especially with something like this. So I think of the ecosystem as a big puzzle and every species is a puzzle piece. What you're doing with an invasive species and so when the invasive species not there, the puzzle fits together, you've got a good working picture, right? When you take say 12 of those pieces out, each being a native species and then you try to replace it with one piece that's one invasive, it's not going to fit right. You know, it might look pretty similar, but it's not going to fit right, either. Or could you lock up? Yeah, I am. It's not going to fit right. So at this point, we don't know what the impact may or may not be, but I can think of zero cases where it's ever been better to replace natives with an invasive. And I hear this all the time, "Oh, it doesn't matter. A spider's just doing spider things." On some levels, sure, okay? And I also hear the whole trope of jorals are beneficial because they catch and kill things we don't want. Look, spiders don't give a crap what flies into that web if they can catch it, they're going to eat it. So yes, they might get the occasional cockroach and the occasional stink bug, but they're also going to take that native pollinator and that monarch butterfly just as quick. Like, they don't care. They're just not, you know, they'll eat whatever is in there. So I know there's an impact. My gut is telling me there's an impact. My gut is telling me in my, like, 30 years of experience of saying you don't get populations of an invasive species this high, this fast without impacts. It's just not happening. But I mean, to some degree, it's kind of a philosophical question that doesn't really matter if we're unable to eliminate. Is it possible, or are there any historical examples in which there has been a problematic invasive species that has been eliminated through an artificial intervention to get them out, or are we just stuck with them, right? Some invasives we can, you know, when I'm not doing joral work, I work with this bug called the Asian Longhorn beetle, and that's one that can be eradicated, and they have eradicated in several places. And we're working on a spot in South Carolina right now. The difference is the biology of that pest is so different, right? It doesn't travel very far. It doesn't, it's reproductive rate isn't all that high. It's just kind of a lazy, slow-moving thing, and it'll re-infest the same tree years in a row until the tree's dead. Jorals disperse, their reproductive rate is high. They're just, it's a very different animal, no pun intended, right? And so, you know, I think the best thing we can hope for, Jorals are never going to be gone, short of some sort of like, war of the world's microbial thing that kills everything, right? I don't know if you ever saw that weird Tom Cruise movie. Oh, weird. It was kind of a mediocre Tom Cruise movie where aliens came in, right? And of course he was sprinting. He was sprinting in. And so basically the world was just about to be completely destroyed, and then they got what was essentially cold and they all dined, dropped out of the, dropped out of the sky, right? And no. Everything's same, Tom Cruise here. Anyway, short of some sort of widespread microbial thing that impacts Jorals, they're always going to be here at this point. There's just too many of them. And I think the best we can hope for is that nature finds some sort of equilibrium to where maybe we get to where, yes, there's Jorals, but there are also the native ones back in that same area. And I think we're just too early in this whole invasion phase to know if that's going to happen. The spiders have, and we're kind of getting to the finish line here. So I'm going to follow up on the book recommendation. But I want to ask one final question to this, the spiders have natural predators, like raptors or anything else that who would be likely the, you know, we always talk about being afraid of Jorals, humans, who does the Jorro likely feel fear out in the nature? Birds will lead them sometimes. And other than that, there's there's mud dog or wasps. I don't know if you've ever seen those little sort of tubes of mud that wasps will put in corners of buildings. If you actually break open one of those tubes of mud, it's stuffed with little spiders. It's pretty awesome, right? And it's basically like an apartment. So they'll do about a half inch long each. They'll build a thing, collect spiders in the field, paralyzed, but not kill them, shove them in there, and then they lay an egg on in that little chamber, and then they'll seal it up and do it again and again. And then when that egg hatches, the larval wasp feeds on these paralyzed, but still live spiders and develops and then comes out. It's crazy. But if you ever break open one of those little mud, mud dog or nuts, just like a handful of paralyzed spiders just like falls out of it. So we do know that there's mud doggers out there that will take Jorals because they'll take any spider of kind of a certain size, right? It's like if your spiders, you know, dime to nickel diameter in terms of the legs, that's like prime mud dog or size. So they'll take those for sure. Other than that, not really man. There's not a lot of stuff that that eats spiders, especially that large, you look at it and also not once they get in the web, you know, like if it's crawling around, I'm sure praying mantas or some other generalist stuff might eat it, but nothing's going to go into a spider web to try to get it, other than a bird. And there's honestly birds have so much other stuff to eat. It's not like they're just going to start eating Jorals spiders. So I'm kind of, I think they need to go, but you know, I'm not a big fan of these Jorals spiders. So I'm a little, yeah, so I'm rooting for these wafs. So I'm hoping that we got what kind of wasp are they? They're called mud dogbers. Mud dogbers. So I wouldn't that be a cool name for a football team or a basketball team? The mud dogbers? Or a band? The mud dogbers? Well, we went to college in the 90s. I'm shocked. So you'd be a great grudge band. If there wasn't a grudge band called the mud dogbers. All right, well, okay, people can take this idea. And if you make your band, we won't sue you for copyright infringement. Yeah, just send us a CD or whatever, whatever the news. And make it sound like it's from 1994. We'd be super happy as children. I sound like I'm from 1994, when I said send us a CD, probably your younger viewers would be like, what the hell is that? Yeah, they were all the rage kids. They were all. I know, I know. And now what's your name? Isn't it ironic? Is that like commercials? I'm like, let us more upset. I'm like, yeah, all the women in our class are like, what? Oh, I got a lot of more sets on commercials. That's like the next time any better is going to be like selling some choosers on a commercial. So, David, thank you so much for your time. Of course. I did promise the legions and thousands. So, you know, there's there's podcast, there's Joe Rogan's podcast. I know there's a rocky cast on just behind Joe in terms of numbers. So expect your career to be turbocharged. Oh, by the way, if you ever get on, okay, so they might do have an ask for you. Can you ever get on Joe Rogan's podcast? You have to name drop the rocking cast. I mean, this is one of the best of all time. So, once you get on that podcast, name drop the rocking cast. But I promised a book recommendation that is really, really good. And you said you have one for us. So, what is your book recommendation? Yeah. So, admittedly, this was the one question you sent there that I had to think about because I don't read a lot of books, believe it or not. I'm just, you know, I read a lot for work, but it's a lot of field guides to that end. The Peterson field guides are still the one of the best tried and true things for anything nature and outdoors. There's all sorts of them highly recommended. The new versions are just immaculate with the photos and everything. But I thought back to the books that I've read and like, there's one that stuck with me that I read. I think it was while I was doing my master's degree. And the title of it is called, and it's, it's, you know, we've been pretty light and jovial here, but this book was not that. It was called We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families. And it's by a writer named Philip Gervitch. And it was about the Rwandan genocide in 1994. And I, I'll be honest, I have no idea how I got that book, why I got that book. But to this day, it is a book I remember reading and being just so gripped, stuck to the pages, reading that thing. It was, it was just something else. Like, it's probably the only book I would read again if I, if I had the time and choice. So that would be my book recommendation. It is not a light story, not something to read the kids at bedtime, but it is just a, I don't know, it's just crazy what, what happens in our world and what people will do to other humans. Well, and not only that, I mean, so many, I, in the Rocky cast, I've done a lot of interviews, but mainly what I've done is basically a lot of book reviews. You know, they say with a good podcast, you're supposed to have a theme, but I've always kind of resisted that because I want to be pigeonholed. I don't want to just talk about one thing. So I do encourage people that when you get those really good books, read them over and over and over again. And I think the best books are ones that you can't get through in one, in one sitting because they do, they impact you for the rest of your life. And they kind of illuminate your world in a way that you hadn't really seen before. David, you have illuminated my world in the world of bugs. And it is such an interesting topic that I think it's so fun to get into each profession, to kind of see who, you know, at some point, like in the history world, evidently, there was a fight between two millerd philmore presidential historians that resulted in a fistfight. Yeah, it escalated a fistfight, and evidently these guys were like millerd philmore. And one of them disagreed about the interpretation of like millerd philmore's domestic policy. And they're like, they broke out and fight. And so I'm not each field has its, has its rebels, its conventional scholars, its people that are popularizers, and there's kind of room for everyone. So thank you so much for being on here. I know you have so many other interviews to do. And it means a lot to me that you participated in the rocky cast. Man, thanks for having me on rock. I was super psyched to see your message the other day and happy we could make it happen this quickly. And you know, I'm happy to do it. This is probably an audience that I don't typically get to reach. And I think that's exciting for me too is a lot of what we do is kind of speak into the void, right? The same people hear a lot of things we say. And as an extension educator, we're always trying to reach people that wouldn't normally hear me. Right. And there's some, you know, lots of different strategies for that. But I love coming on podcasts that maybe don't always focus on science and biology because it's a great way to reach some new people and hopefully generate some questions, maybe alleviate some fears. Thank you so much. And I guess that's kind of the essence of liberal arts is combining one topic with another and making connections. And I think that's one of the real joys of doing the rocky cast, but reaching out and talking to really interesting people that are doing great. Thanks so much, Dave. And we're going to sign off on the rocky cast.

We'll also discussed his career path to becoming a PhD in Entomology along with his current research on the joro spider.

Dr. Coyle and I played football for one year at Luther College and we also graduated in 1997 from Luther College. Loved doing this one!!