(intense music) Hey y'all, real quick. We got some really good news. The right side out series we did on the show about ADHD and positive self psychology and my relationship to my mom got selected to be a finalist in the Signal Awards. If you don't know the Signal Awards, they are kind of a thing in podcasting and our series got picked. Now, we are so honored with this, but it also means that you're up for a listener's choice award. I will warn you, however, somehow we're in a category with Oprah. So I don't know (laughs) I'm up against Oprah in the self-help advice category. And so, I don't know. But we would just love it if you all would take a second and vote for the series at creativepeptalk.com/vote. That will send you to where you need to go. And we would just super appreciate it. Thanks. Oh, and if you haven't listened to the series, it starts on episode 449 of this podcast and it's six episodes. (upbeat music) Take a deep breath in and then breathe out. Did you know that conscious breathing can significantly decrease stress and anxiety? And if you're wanting less of those in your life, then meditation is key. The Meditation for Women podcast provides free daily guided meditations covering just about every topic, so it's easy to press play and let yourself be guided to more calm and clarity. Listen and follow Meditation for Women on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) ♪ On the creative journey ♪ ♪ It's easy to get lost ♪ ♪ But don't worry, you're liftoff ♪ ♪ Sometimes you just need a creative pep song ♪ Hey, you're listening to Creativepeptalk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator and this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. (upbeat music) Today we have 3D artist and now filmmaker Julian Glander. Julian Glander and I have been internet buddies for about a decade now and I have been a huge fan, a longtime fan of his blobby 3D characters and just neon color palettes and gifts and animation and music for the longest time and then this summer, he came out with a frickin' new 3D animated film feature-length film called "Boys Go to Jupiter" and it frickin' premiered at Tribeca Film Festival and y'all, I got to watch it, a super sneak peak version of the movie and it is incredibly delightful and inspiring and I just really could not believe just the creative path of this guy and then also just the brilliance and insight and just everything he's pulled off in this movie. The cast is unbelievable, Jack Corbett, Janine Garafolo, Tavi Gevinson, Chris Fleming, just to name a few, there's even more than that, it is funny and heartwarming and the music is so good, it could exist on its own just as an album. Julian wrote the music and he performs some of it, I believe and then others are performed by other people. Go check out Julian's work on Instagram @glanderco, G-L-A-N-D-E-R-C-O to see where the film is gonna be playing at festivals, et cetera and so that you can get a little taste of it and see his work and know when it's gonna be streaming on a TV near you. I was beaming after this chat, I mean, I was giddy, inspired by gut hurt from laughing so much and just a few nuggets to kind of tune in for as we work through this chat. The first one is this is another one that I think really illustrates the power of embracing an independent spirit in your creativity, not waiting for somebody to give you the huge budget and time and label to believe that you could make a film and just go for it and figure out how to make it on your own. This is what he has accomplished here through just his own creative spirit blows me away and I think the way that creativity has been monopolized, is that a word, just commodified to the point where we have lost ownership is just such a huge problem and I think the only way out of it as always when we get in this space is to start just believing in ourselves and doing our projects on our own when we need to and I think that you'll get tons from this chat in that direction. But we also talk about how the obstacle is the swag way AKA why your limitations or roadblocks can become the best fodder for your creative work. And he has such a powerful example of this in this movie and talks about it in this chat. Stick to the end and I will return with a CTA AKA, our creative call to adventure, a way to put some of these ideas to practice. It's called find a swag way. However you can, it's about how to see those obstacles in your creative story as the fodder for your next breakthrough in a kind of practical light. All right, without any further ado, here is my chat with Julian Glander. (upbeat music) Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that sinks in real time so you and your team can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. I really love the Miro mind maps and flow charts because when I'm working on a bit of writing, I like to free associate and kind of let my mind explore and wonder. And the idea of being able to brainstorm with someone across the world in real time with Miro is just really cool. You can open up one of the boards and just start working right away. It's super intuitive and easy to use. So whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, UX, Agile or IT, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster from idea to outcome. Go to Miro.com to find out how that's M-I-R-O.com. I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's fluid engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out Squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. - Okay, so I just, I watch your movie film. Is it a film? Is there a difference between that? - I think film is better. - I think it's a film. - Okay, I'll take it. - I think, well, is that the film festival? - I think it's for me, it's a flick. - Okay, it's a flick. It's like you could get it at Blockbuster. - It's big content, it's jumbo content. - Jumbo content. - That's the lowest thing. - Like a movie, like a movie that's content. - It's a movie that gets cut up on TikTok into like a hundred parts. And there's like a guy talking over the whole thing. Do you ever see those? - Yes, but that might be it. I mean, that's where I want it to go. - Really, it's beautiful, honestly. We're kidding. We're definitely, it is fantastic. I loved it. - Thank you, I'm so glad you watched it. - It's so good. And I can't wait for other people to see it. How, when will people be able to see it? - So a premiere at Tribeca Film Festival in June, where we're at now with it is gearing up for our fall festival run. So it's gonna be at, it's gonna be in Nashville and Tallahassee in these next couple of weeks. It's going up to Ottawa, we'll do an LA premiere. It's going to Houston. It's going to an airport in Japan that has an airport film festival. It's going to the Netherlands. It's going to London. And that's where-- - Oh my gosh. - So every weekend for the rest of the year, it's going to be screening somewhere. And then hopefully it gets on streaming or we do a little theatrical release or something. - Dude, I'm so glad I'm talking to you right now because in just one year, you'll pretend like you never met me. You'll be like, "Oh, that guy, I think he--" - We go way better. - A loser, no, no, but I am serious. I'm serious to me. I'm excited to talk to you right now because this is a fun moment. Are you having fun? First of all, tell people what the hell we're talking about. - Okay, sure. Then we'll get it. - Sure. So I'm in the process of releasing an animated feature film. It's called "Boys Go to Jupiter." It's an indie kind of coming-of-age musical sci-fi comedy about a teenage boy in suburban Florida. It has an all-star comedy cast, including Joe Pera, Sarah Sherman, Julio Torres, Elsie Fisher. I can't even name them all. Every time I do this, I have to leave off 10 people. So go type it into Google, "Boys Go to Jupiter." - Jeanie Garafolo. - Yes, Jeanie Garafolo. - It was great. - She is great, isn't she? - And you, the paramedic? - I was the paramedic. Oh my God, good year. - I caught it instantly. - Wow. - That was great. - Incredited two lines of the movie and you clocked it. - Yeah, that was great. - I have a couple other parts in there too. I also play the Goblin King, who lives inside a video game in the movie. - Okay, yeah, I didn't catch that one. - Yeah. - And that embarrassment of Star Talent there. - Is that that video game one? Is that, I think he, on the internet, Beef Strong or something like that? - Beef Strong, what's his name? - What's his name? - His work is incredible. - He's the guy who really kind of inspired me to start doing 3D. So he animated this special sequence within the movie, which is my little way of paying tribute to him. 'Cause yeah, I think he's great. Beef Strong is his name on social media. - Great, I mean, he's one of those guys I think that has converted a lot of 2D people into 3D, wanting to get in there because, I mean, I know several, and myself included, every time I see his work, I'm just like, "Dude, I want my work to be able to do that." Like that is completely. - Oh, completely. Yeah, it's fantastic. Just the texture, the personality that he has in the work and the level of detail is crazy. - Yeah, it's incredible. - Yeah, it's amazing. - It's a great vibe, too. Like I said, I love the movie. One thing, before we get into the real conversation about it, it made me think like, the music is so good, which you also did the music. - I did write the music, yes. - And I thought, is this like, this would be an incredible way to launch your music career. I mean, I know you do music, I know you do music, but I thought like, what if this is like an elaborate scheme to launch your first album? - Well, you know what? It kind of is because, you know, when I first got out of college, I was in a band, it didn't really take. And I think part of it is very difficult. It's one of the art forms that's harder than almost any other to get people to pay attention to you. So, right, in some ways, this is a long play to get people to listen to my songwriting. And it certainly helps. I got some real superstar talent singers in the movie as well. There's a song by Mia Foley, which she sings, which I listen to, as if it's not my own song. - Is that the money one? - Yes. - Oh, it's so good. What's the chorus line about money? - Tastes like heaven, tastes like honey, tastes like piles and piles of money. - Yeah. - Look at this, just two guys who have seen the movie and no one else has. - It feels good. - It's good, dude. And that song was incredible. And I thought this would be an amazing Trojan horse way of launching an album. Like if you're struggling out there to launch your album, just make a movie. - Just make a movie. - And that's how you do it. - That sort of is like, in some ways, it is that. - Yeah. - I think, you know, I studied creative writing in school. And same thing, I would write a short story and I found it very hard to get people to pay attention to it. You know, I think these, there are these sort of pure art forms, I guess like a, you know, a painting, a short story, a song, these things that very much are self-contained and don't live in a greater context that are very hard to get in front of people. - Definitely. - And I mean, when I was in school, what I used to do is I'd write a short story for class and then I would post it like as a Yelp review for a local restaurant. - And like, that's how I would get people to read it. - Yeah. And dude, I was joking and not joking. Just like what you were saying. Like, I didn't think you were actually like, this is actually just an album in disguise 'cause the movie is fantastic and hilarious and just really enjoyable. But I did, I did think that. I did think like, I've thought a lot about how like, as an example, Pixar blew up in the, what, late 90s, maybe, something like that. And all the conversations at least at the beginning. Now, all the conversations now are about Pixar and story. They're like synonymous things. But the conversations then were like, it's a computer animated movie. Like this is like, can you believe it? And it's just a Trojan horse thing. And I think I really do. I mean, my whole career has been that. Has been like, okay, they don't want the thing I have. What do they want? And I'll put a book cover on it that's like a different sleeve. And then by the time they're reading it, it's not a total bait and switch 'cause I think, like for instance, you did the movie, the movie's great. And I know that wasn't actually your strategy, but I'm just saying like, I feel like there's something, there's something to be taken away there. - Yeah, I think, I definitely think in terms of building out a creative project, the idea of novelty, I think, is oftentimes a dirty word where it's or, you know, gimmickery or really novelty. The idea that you're doing something that is interesting because it's new or it's the first time it's been done. I think sometimes people can see that as very cheap or very, or insubstantial. And but it's also, I think, it's something you can add into a project as sort of a secret spy, as MSG or something. - Yeah, and it's, yeah, go ahead, sorry. - I mean, I think like the thing that's gonna bring people into this movie is the all-star cast, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And that, I don't want to say it's a gimmick. - And then also that you're a guy who just made a movie. I mean, to me, from the outside, that's what's so interesting is that you did it, you made a movie with like the humor and the story and the heart that a movie has. And you kind of figured out a way to do it on your own. Like, I know you didn't do it on your own, but that, to me, that's the kind of incredible thing. And I think, and especially like with the way that 3D has kind of evolved over the past 10 years or so, the fact that you could do that is really interesting. And so that, I think, is gonna get people, I mean, is that your impression of like why? 'Cause Tribeca might put it in their festival because it's good, but how do you get them to taste it first? You know what I mean? - Well, you pay them $100 and they have to watch it all the way through. - Well, that's okay. One thing, but yeah, but how do you open their mind? How do you make them, 'cause how many other things get submitted that maybe have a similar level of heart and humor? I don't know. How do you get them to lower your guard? I think it's something to do with the novelty of what you do. - Well, okay, so I definitely think this isn't comprehensive as an answer to your question, but I think it's something that my producer and I were very mindful of was, we wanna premiere the movie at a festival that's not an animation festival. So that when these people who go through 13,000 submissions of films, when they put it on, it's just so different. And that it can fit into a programming block. And it's not like it's fighting with something else for this one exact spot, but at the same time, it has a sensibility that fits into Tribeca. 'Cause I mean, what I know from talking to film festival programmers is oftentimes they'll have four great films in a given year that are all about, I don't know, giraffes or something, and they can only pick one of them. That's probably not a good example. There's probably not that many people who are in giraff work right now. - It made me think of like, you know, when there's Finding Nemo and then Shark Tale, and I know that's, again, not-- - But that's, I mean, that's also a strategy. - It's kinda like that. - Yeah, true. - I would actually love if it was like-- - Like, this is so hot right now, like that kind of thing? - Yeah. - I'd love if there was a big Pixar equivalent to this movie that was coming out at the same time. I saw something online that there was, there's a movie called, I think it's called Twisters with a Z. - Right, yeah, so people are renting and thinking it's the new Twisters on, you know. And, I mean, they talk about Blockbuster, that used to happen all the time. You'd go and you'd pick up, you thought it was the new Friday the 13th, and then you look a little closer. - Yeah. - It's Friday the 15th. - Totally different movie. But, you know, I think that the funny, or the fun thing about that is that it's not just, like, I think for me personally, I can get into, like, the part about the art making that matters to me the most is the stuff that's, like, close to my heart. It's about the, you know, it's inspired by the stuff that had a profound impact on me, or I had, like, a moment with it. And then, I'm, you know, writing and having these, like, an experience making something that's very, like, romantic in a way. And I think a lot of artists probably can relate to that. And what I like about what you said is, you had, there's definitely, like, a romance to what you're doing here. Like, there's, there's artistry. And then you are able to also, on top of that, have fun with the way that you thought about the strategy. Like, it doesn't have, like, the novelty and the fun and, or the novelty doesn't have to be ruining the poetry. It can be, like, okay, like, how can we get people to pay attention to this? - Well, they're really, I mean, it's really two projects. You know, you have, and this is true anytime you release something, and for me, the best way to do it is to treat them as two very separate projects. And, you know, when you're writing a script, I don't think you should be thinking about your Hollywood Reporter press release. - Yeah. - I think you do have to do it the romantic way. - Yeah. - And then, when it's done, in this case, when the movie was kind of done in a good shape, we just switched our brains and said, okay, the movie's locked, and now it's product, and now we're not gonna be filmmakers anymore, we're gonna be marketing people. And, I mean, I love that stuff. I think that stuff can be really fun. There's obviously a massive industry that exists because a lot of creative people don't wanna do it. And, I understand why it's a lot of kind of unsexy work. It's a lot of grinding and drudgery and emailing a million people. I think the thing that I did for a long time in my career, and I think it's like, it's something that keeps you from really having a career is just doing the work, and then having this belief that it's gonna sort itself out, you know, that you can just put, that you can just finish something and just kind of put it somewhere and leave it alone. When really, you actually have the opportunity to do this whole other project, which is like a fun little campaign, you know? - Yeah. I just thought of, I just recorded an episode, I don't know if it'll air before this or after, but about how for a long time I thought about those two things as these two distinct journeys, and they're both, you know, it's like you finish the project. Now you're only in the middle of the damn marathon, it's like a bicathlon kind of thing. But then recently I thought actually, when I get in the middle of like launching a book or something, I realize like, oh, I'm not having to access the very difficult parts of myself that get the good work on the page. And it can actually just be like, even, no matter, it's not really about whether it's successful or not, it can be, yeah, it's another lap, but it's a victory lap. It's like now it's just like- - Exactly, you're running the bases right now. - Yeah, exactly, yes. - There's a temptation to deny yourself that and to say, like for me, it's certainly, it's like, well, hey, I can either do this festival run in the fall and go and do Q and A's and meet everyone and be in the room with people and watch the movie, or my impulse is to get started on the next project. And to actually always be working on a heavy duty project like that is exhausting and not sustainable. To finish a movie and then not even hear anyone applaud for it, and then just go right into the next one is like psychotic. - Yeah, and it feels very motivated for me. I know that that would be motivated by fear, fear of like, I don't know, what if I can't do this again? What if I lose my special moment where this is my time to sell it or, yeah. - Yeah, but that second journey that can be where you're having fun and joining it, taking things from it, learning, there's so much stuff you can get from that. The other thing I want to go back on is like, I think you were talking about how the, it reminds me of like the Batman movies that were made starting with the toys, right? Like the idea that you're starting the movie based on what's marketable. And I actually think you're totally right about probably the easiest order to do it well is to do the art and then see like, are there good toys in here to like market? Or like, are there like TikToks we could take out of here or whatever? But, and I think that that's probably the easiest way to do it. But I was just thinking like, you know, you also have people like the guy who makes, has made the few mission and possibles that have done really well, that he starts with the trailer. And to me, I thought like, I think both are true. I think both are the same thing really, which are, are you able to separate out and do both of those things at different times? So 'cause I could see it being also a challenge too of like, okay, how could I get something in there? Now I have a prompt, but now I have to actually set down my marketing brand. That's the, that's what I think is the real challenge is, can you flip in and out of those things? - It's, yeah, that's obviously a special talent that I think a few people on the planet have and are really good at, I think for most of us, it's hard to flip in and out of any kind of brains. It's, you know, if I can just get into a creative state, you know, for an hour of a day, that's like an awesome day. We actually did start with kind of start with a trailer on this one because, no, that's not true. I had written the script and then I put together a little trailer to bring the cast in, like a little 60 second couple shots set to music. I did find it kind of helpful just to start getting my muscles moving on doing the 3D, but what I found throughout the process is, the more you decide about what the project's gonna be, the more it feels like you are following someone else's instructions, even if they are your own instructions. - What does that mean? - Like it's like, I think like, I didn't do storyboards on the movie because oftentimes in my experiences, if I do storyboards for a project, everything after that just feels like I have to honor those boards and I'm just coloring them in and it's like just labor. - Yeah. - So leaving it open, we had a script, but even the script changed a lot. We did a lot of improv in the booth and I also like, one of my favorite things and the things that, one of the things I think really helped me move through the production of this movie is they were like big patches in the script that just said like, beautiful moment or like musical number here. And I'm like, I know that this is, we're missing something from this scene to this scene. I'm just gonna leave it for now. And then on a day when I'm like not loving the project, I can come in and do something totally new there. So all the musical sequences in the movie. - What a hack. - I know. - That's so, it's such a good hack. - Oh, I think you were calling me a hack. (laughing) - That would be something totally different. - I was like, yeah, I've revealed myself. It's out there now, I'm a hack. - Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, that did not foresee that. I meant like a hack of getting into that brain state. It's such a good way to get through a long project that I've never done, I've never done that. And I've had like a life hack, like a great game. (laughing) Just keep replaying me saying (laughing) - What a hack. - You're controlling me. - You're hitting the sound board. It's like the toilet flushing sound. (laughing) And you pull the trap door on me and that's it. The five guesses are where. (laughing) - It's just, I don't know why that got me so much. Sorry about that. - Sorry. - I was trying to freaking cheer you on 'cause it's so good. Keep going before I just freaking derail the damn thing. - Yeah, I mean, and I also, I mean, I think this is something that's nice about doing a self-funded, independent project is, and part of this is my producer is really great. She's my best friend. We've been best friends for 15 years. You know, I can call her up and say, "Hey, I know we're like pretty much done with this, "but I want to change the ending." And she's like, "Yeah, okay, it's your movie." Like, you know, I'll pull whatever I need to do together to get the ending changed. You can't do that always. I mean, you can't do it when you have a client. You know, you can't do it, but that's not, you know, to go off on another tangent, I definitely spent about a year getting the imaginary client off my shoulder. You know, the person who doesn't even exist, but is an amalgamation of every art director or producer or development person I've ever met, who I know would say, you know, without spoiling anything about the movie, you can't end the movie like that, you know? Or like, you can't have this scene in the middle that's just a complete tangent. You can't put that in there just 'cause you think it's beautiful. And it was like, actually, like, yeah, it was kind of a lot of work to get rid of that person and say, why am I doing this? You know, I'm doing this to make the movie that I would put on and would be special to me. So I'm the client this time. - Yeah, how do you, you know, I love that because I think it gets it. I really think that that's kind of that part of you, that character in your brain is that's really, I think probably your ego, it's a part of you that's like self-conscious, persona, whatever. And that actually was gonna end the chat today with a question about, it feels like, you know, the script and then the tone and everything about it. It just feels like you. It feels like whatever is you when you're making little internet clips, that's, that you're like, you know, I told you this last time we chatted, like that you, you know, you put out some work with like Disney XD or something that me and my daughter watched on a loop a hundred times, I found it again. It was the one where the witch is playing a song with the cat. - A song witch, yes. She's doing her little Disney songs, yeah. - And it's so good and I can't remember how it goes but I'm not gonna sing it anyway. But there's whatever the thing that's in that is, is expanded into this universe in a way that feels so, it reminds me of when I can get out of my own way. Like, and like you said, like if I can do that one hour a day, it's like a crazy thing. And so I wonder how do you, how do you think, how did you even recognize when it was the client ego thing? How do you even, 'cause that's even hard. - I think it was from, I think it was from talking it out. Talking out with my producer and then also with my wife who was very much, I have bothered her a lot with this movie. I mean, my main, one of my big motivations during production was having something to show her at the end of every day. So that was part of our daily rituals, I'd work all day. And then after dinner, she would come up to the office and see what I was working on. And just like, kind of knowing that was coming and anticipating that moment was really motivating for me. And then of course, you know, and then you're talking and I'm saying, oh, you know, I really don't think this worked or like, I don't think it's gonna work. And then even just saying it out loud, sometimes you know. Oh, I'm talking from someone else's point of view, I'm guessing, you know. And I think like this is, that's a bad thing to do, whether you're doing your own work or you're doing something for a client. I think the worst thing you can do is try to be a mind reader and try to guess what someone else is gonna want. And you know, I definitely, yeah, I see this in your work as well. It's very clear that you know what you like and you make that work and that's priority number one. And there's always a way when you have a client to make something that you both like. And it takes back and forth, but it's so much harder to guess. It's impossible to say, you know, I don't like this color palette, but I think they'll like it even though they didn't tell me that. It's fatal, it like never works. And then you get cranky for no reason, or I do. Yeah, me too. Self-conscious, sensitive, I don't even understand my own project. You're feeling like, I have to do this. Like, and you're like, who's telling you that? Nobody's making you do this. It's very weird, right. It's very easy to forget why you're doing something. It's true. Or to just be like, confused, yeah. Massive, you know, props to the people that are in, creative folks life who have to watch our little things all the time, at least mine, like the dumb things that I show my wife, at least yours was an actual movie that you're sharing. Oh, come on now. So, well, I mean, look, I'm proud of a lot of the stuff I make, but they're so most days, the things I'm showing are like, "Look at that." And it's so funny too. It's like, and I always feel like I'm a kid. Like, and I always say this 'cause I show my kids stuff too. And I'm like, "Look, I made that today." And they're like, "Cool." That's, I mean, that's a little bit harder. That's a tougher audience because they don't... It's a tougher audience. But I mean, when you love someone, I know that it's like, I'm sure that when your kids draw something, you love it. Because when you love someone, you love everything they make. And so, when you have someone like that in your life, it's not someone that you can use as a brutal, critical focus group, but it's someone you can always go to for support. Yeah. And it's another, to your point, it sounds like what you were saying is, as you're saying these things, it's almost that you recognize that this isn't your voice. Like, what you're saying like, "Wait, I don't think that." Like what? Yeah, it's classic, it's classic talk therapy where the other person doesn't have to say anything. You just reveal it by talking. Yeah. It's good, that's, that makes tons of sense. So I have, the other thing I wanted, I'll just real quick, 'cause I just think it's too good when I called you a hack. And I was not. Was, I love that we talk a lot about on the show, like plotter versus pantser, improv versus standup and all that kind of stuff. It sounds like you had a good mix of those things. But I love the way that you mixed it is truly a really great creative hack because there are so many books and I really mean this, so many books that I have not made because in my mind, they're done. Right, and we, I think we've even talked about this before, this concept of a booger, which is, I have these ideas all the time where it's so done that you don't have to do it. Exactly. It's the, it writes itself, it's the, oh, it's X meets Y, it's right, it's the stuff where it's so done in your head that it would be so unenjoyable. Yeah. And it's called a, why is it called a booger? It's called a booger 'cause it's like, you pick it out of your nose and then you flick it away. Like, it's there in your brain, but it's too done. Yeah, dude, I, and how did you, did you, was it an intuitive thing that you did that? Like, were you just like, oh, okay, I'm gonna leave a blank here. I'm gonna leave like, it's literally like you're, you know, your inner child is that playful creative part. It's literally like setting up games for yourself throughout the past. Yeah. I think what it was, was more, when things started really moving, was after I'd written the first draft and we started setting up the recording sessions, then we had a hard day to move towards. And then what happened was, it was time to prioritize what we needed in the sessions with the actors. And so, you know, we were up against the, you know, this movie took three to four years to make and we were really up against the clock at every stage. We recorded with our actors, like as the strike was starting last summer, like I think we got our last session the day before the strike was gonna start at midnight. So we were powering through that. And so what it was, was we're looking at the script and saying, okay, I just need to get the dialogue. And then if there's an action sequence or a musical sequence, it's triaged for now. So part of it is just necessity because the other option would have been, hey, the strike is coming. Maybe that's assigned to wait until next year. And I think just knowing myself and how much focus I can put into something that would have probably killed the project. Yeah. That's a tricky tightrope right there because I constantly am constantly trying to find a line between, you know, pushing myself and not biting off more than I can chew because I am a, I think there's, I think a lot of people would push you to be like, believe in yourself, shoot big. But there is a side of me where I'm like, you know, when I do that too much, I end up doing nothing. And that is a tricky thing. But okay, so I wanted to just get you to talk a little bit about how do you, maybe like the main story beats of how someone who, 10 years ago, I nudged you to do a collaboration for a random client project for Facebook, like making gifts for social countries. That's right. And then now you have a film. Like what, what are the, how do, what are the pieces of that story? I think it is, well, it's crazy because it feels like it's happened very fast. It feels like 10 years has gone by really quickly, but obviously that's a really long time. And I think if you had told me in 2014, oh, you'll have a feature film out in 10 years, I'd be like, no, I'm going to have a feature film out in three years, you know, I like, I was so impatient. And it's, but exactly, it's to your point, it's trying to jump from whatever you know how to do, which is drawings to like something much bigger is impossible, it. So basically, you know how it worked for me is, it was one little step at a time, right? When we met, there was that craze around gifts where it was every brand needed to be posting gifts every day. And so they were commissioning a lot of art. - Yeah. - And that's what, that's kind of how I entered into the, whatever you would call it, the commercial creative field. It's just like a moment when there was a lot of demand and not a lot of people doing it. And then from doing gifts, it was just stepping a little bigger each time, you know, after a gift would be a 15 second animation with some music. And after that would be maybe a one minute thing, a bumper, after that, a three minute short film that goes to festivals, you know, and each of these steps is taking a year at a time which in the life of a 23 year old is like infinite time, you know? And then it's like, okay, from the three minute shorts, I worked on some TV shows and then I directed a 10 minute episode of this show called Summer Camp Island on HBO Max. And I think my feeling after that was, well, if I did 10 minutes, this is probably the biggest leap there is, is to go from 10 to 90. And there's nothing in the middle. You know, there's not really like a 40 minute thing that makes any sense, you know? Like, so I just, I said, let me try to make a, make a episode of TV 10 times in a row. And in some ways, it was actually easier. A lot of parts of it were easier than just nine X. And then some things were infinitely harder. You know, I think creating a story that holds together for 90 minutes is a lot harder than creating a story that holds for 10 minutes, you know? Because within the beginning, middle and end, you just have so many little pieces and things that need to, things that go up that need to come down and things that need to be satisfied and things that can't be too open ended and things have to be a little open ended. And, you know, yeah, I spent, I just spent forever writing this. I spent like more than half the time writing the script in terms of the whole amount of the movie. Like probably two years writing it and then a little less than two years producing it. - Yeah. And, you know, and it's hard 'cause there's, there's also all these things about how pacing. I think a lot about how when we watch TV, watch movies, listen to a podcast versus audio book, you know, we approach it with a bias that there's a degree in which you can't escape that. There's a, it needs to play by some of those rules for it to feel right. So there's, there's all kinds of things there, but I was gonna say, I love what you said about taking these little steps. The exact same thing happened to me in a smaller way to making books. Like I remember when I was 18, I couldn't imagine having the creative stamina to create a book. And some people think like that's ridiculous. Like it's not a huge feat. But for me, I just knew like, man, like 50 pages, like holy shit, that's so much. - Well, it is actually so much. - I mean, it feels like a lot to me. But I think that I think you're, one of the things I see going back and I see in that is this idea of like, you know, the thing that gets thrown around that I don't think there's, I think it's just kind of an abstract idea, but the 10,000 hours thing. And if you really like break down 10,000 hours, it's a ton of time. It's way more time than you think it would be. And I think if you said to childhood you or childhood me, like these things that you're gonna go do, you're gonna take 10,000 hours to get there. You'd be like, okay, I can't do that. - You'd be like, I'm not doing that. I got, I'm gonna play video games for 10,000 hours. I'm gonna, yeah, exactly. I think the implication in a theory like that is that those 10,000 hours are going to be brutal and unenjoyable and a slog and like exercise. - And you'd have nothing to show for it. You have just 10,000 hours of practice. - Yeah. - But it's quite the opposite. Yeah. - And I think to your point of your story, you might take 10,000 hours to make a movie, but it takes a fraction of that to make a GIF. And if you can break down that race into little tiny sprints and then they start compounding over time and you get to these really interesting places. And I think that that's what's so, that's been so powerful to me to break down my journey into little projects. And they compounded where back when I started, like doing a character every day that took me 30 minutes to two hours was like, I'll never do this. I can't, I don't have the stamina and mental endurance to do that. And now, you know, the podcast is like 10 different habits and I've been doing that for 10 years. And so I think that, yeah, I feel like that, I love your story because I think it's a testament to breaking it down into chunks, doing projects, having a something to show for it and shows how far you can go if you keep doing that. - Well, it is, yeah, I think it's true. I think almost everybody is capable of more than they think. You know, I think people are closer to doing what they wanna do than they realize a lot of times. I think for everyone breakthroughs are right around the corner and a lot of it is about digging around. I also, I was not moving in a straight line towards this by any means. You know, I was not on a calculated path to have a movie at Tribeca. This is just like, it's very much been one step at a time and there's also been a lot of sort of tangents and offshoots that felt like they weren't going anywhere that have come back into this. You know, being in a band is a perfect example. I started a band with my friend, Payson. We played a number of shows around Brooklyn. It really didn't take. It really was not something anyone wanted. And so, you know, you know, it was 10 years ago, put that aside. Now she's the producer on my movie because we learned how to work together back then loading in drum kits and stuff. And yeah, I got my music in the movie 'cause I learned how to play instruments. And it's like, and you know, every little piece of this movie and every little piece of whatever I do next is gonna be culminating on that. On that stuff that felt like a waste of time or just fun. (gentle music) - We wear our work day by day, stitch by stitch. The Dickies, we believe work is what we're made of. So, whether you're gearing up for a new project or looking to add some tried and true work wear to your collection, remember that Dickies has been standing the test of time for a reason. The work wear isn't just about looking good. It's about performing under pressure and lasting through the toughest jobs. Head over to Dickies.com and use the promo code workwear20 at checkout to save 20% on your purchase. It's the perfect time to experience the quality and reliability that has made Dickies a trusted name for over a century. - The other thing that comes to mind is as you're working through the script, it got me thinking around how intimidating writing is for a lot of people, a lot of creative people, especially a lot of visual art people or even actors like writing. And yet, to me, I wish I would have got into writing much earlier because that substance ends up emanating into so much more interesting things, like style and all the, everything ends up coming from that. And then even the opportunities that you didn't write come from those writings. And it's just the, like the generating stuff like that is such a huge, it's just, it's so gratifying in the process. Was the script, did it feel like that? Were you having like these moments with it? I mean, I'm sure it wasn't all gravy, but. - It was pretty gravy, actually. I think I maybe, I think I liked it too much. - Really? - I think this is where I think I'm very different from every other illustrator I know, which is actually don't like drawing and doodling. And it's like, in a lot of ways. - No, I'm kind of like this too. - What I do in 3D is really not like drawing at all. You know, it's a lot more like construction or playing with Legos or architecture or something else. So my background is in creative writing. I went to school for it. I started out my career working at ad agency. I wanted to be a copywriter. So yeah, I like words. And yeah, I think like I liked writing the script too much. I could have just done it forever. Because part of it is it feels very safe and intimate because you kind of know that unlike a novel or even a blog post, no one's ever actually going to see the script. Like it's just the under skeleton for something else. And so you can put ideas in there. You can, honestly, you can spell stuff wrong. You can get stuff wrong, you know. And it feels very free. It's also compared to writing prose. It's easy to feel productive because a page of a script does not actually have that much on it. - What a point. That sounds like... - It's like 10 lines of dialogue and a couple of descriptions and you've done a page. - That's encouraging. - Yeah, for me, it's like what I think about is like, I read some statistics, I'll get the number wrong, but it's like the amount of text that you write in emails every month. It obviously varies from person to person, but I think we have all probably written a novel's worth of emails at this point. You know, we all have the practice. - That's really encouraging and super depressing at the same time. - It is, but it's like, you know, you have the muscle memory. - Yes. - Everyone could type pretty fast. And, you know, it also, it's like, if you can think of it that way as just generation, it doesn't have to be perfect. Yeah. But, no, I love this, I would write the script forever because it's also like, it's the most perfect version of the movie where you can just write, you know, you can write whatever you want and you can write out the most expensive scene ever and it doesn't cost you anything. And then you hand that problem off to either yourself later. - Unfortunately, in this case to you later, future you. - And again, I think this is where you have to treat each project separate where you say, that person will figure it out. And 'cause we didn't do everything that we had in the script. We can talk about that a little bit, but yeah. - Once the script is done, then it gets handed off. - Okay, there were some other threads that I wanted to pick up on, but tell me about that first 'cause what didn't you do in the script? - Well, we've talked about shortcuts before. - Yeah. - And I think like one of the big ones in this movie, now that you've seen it, I wonder if you noticed this. - Oh, this is the thing you told me to look out for, which I never would have seen if you hadn't highlighted. So yeah, I'm excited to get into this. - I've several hundred people have seen the movie so far. One person who's an animator pointed out, they said, I love how nobody walks in the movie. And basically it's like, you know, in animation, the walk cycle is historically a very time and labor intensive part of animation because there are a lot of bones at work and everyone knows exactly what walking looks like. So yeah, to look at a big animation studio, they're spending millions of dollars just making sure everyone's walking right. And because we didn't have that, the options were either do a bad version or find something else. So in this movie, the main character is on a swagway, which I really like because it kind of sets up, the time the movie is taking place, it sets up where he is in terms of culture and class. And then it also, I think it sells his character because it's this sort of ghostly floating motion that kind of undersell or, you know, kind of sells the way he's floating through life. And it's, I think it's funny, but it was the easiest thing ever to animate. And, you know, we have characters skateboarding, we have one character that's in this sort of robot suit. We have characters popping up from behind a fence like the neighbor from home improvement, characters that never get out of their car or, you know, one of Julio's characters is just a door. It's like a face and a door. - I love those too. I love that in the character and the car. And I love, and then you have just, like if you hadn't have highlighted that to me and I would see the only one, one of the only characters that like kind of walks is just a quirky farmer. And you just think, oh, that's like his weird quirky walk. Like he like shuffles over the ground. And I was like, yeah, okay. And I was like, I knew to look for it. I was like, oh, that's good, that's funny. And it's also just funny. Like it's, and it makes it, it's an interesting choice. - Well, there's, you know, those are the best creative things you can have. I'm sure you've experienced these moments where it's like, oh, something wasn't working for me. And at 11.59 before it was, before the time, I had the easiest shortcut ever that actually was better, was funny. - Yes. - I spent an entire day trying to get two characters to walk down a flight of stairs. And instead, they just take a little elevator instead. And it's like, fine. - Yes. How did you think, so were you aware of that, this like obstacle of like characters, walk cycles, how expensive and how impossible that was gonna be? Were you aware of that going into this? And you thought, how did you come up with the idea of getting around it that way? - No, I think it was more real-time problem solving. It was more, I wanted them in character on a bicycle. And I was just, you know, I mean, I think it's like, it's one of the recalibrations you have to do is say, I'm having a really bad time doing this animation. You know, I'm really not enjoying it. I'm trying for an hour and then I'm stopping and going and getting a snack. And it's like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And it was, you know, I mean, again, we're on a really tight schedule. There's like 90 scenes in the movie and for the rough animation stage, we did a scene a day. So, you know, there's really not a lot of time to Dilly Dally and get super technical. And if something's not working, again, what I like to do is just try something as placeholder. And there's a lot of stuff in the movie that was placeholder that's good enough. Some of it wasn't, you know, some of what we went back to, but a lot of it is like, what if I do something cheap and silly instead? And what if instead of trying to cover something up on a technical side, I zoom in on it and sell it as a comedy? - Yeah, I love that because it reminds me of two things. I love the idea of this is a whole, maybe this'll be our CTA for the show. We always end with like homework, basically, like things you can do with the stuff that we talked about. And I think do a project where your whole mentality is placeholder. It's just like, well, just this placeholder, placeholder, and because it reminds me of two things. Remind me of like this, all of the hit songs that were written with someone just saying, all right, it's kind of like sous, su studio kind of thing. And then like, and that, oh, why don't we just keep that? Like, I kind of like that. You know, these, there's tons of stories you hear of like, musicians off the cuff, just randomly like a placeholder there or Judd Apatow talks about it like script one, rough draft is putting sand into the sandbox, not building a castle. - Yes, yeah, that's such a good. Yeah, place, and again, placeholder, I think is something that has a bad rap. - Yeah. - I think we all know if you see placeholder, if you spot placeholder in a finished project, it's ugly and lazy and bad. But it's a, it's a fictional designation. You know, something that might be placeholder to you might be someone's favorite thing ever. Yeah, and I mean, first of all, I just have to say, I don't know if I told you this, but you know, I really want to get, I've had some opportunities that haven't been fully materialized. And I've always want, like when I first started doing the characters that became invisible things, like I was inspired primarily by TV, like Fragment Rock, like that was my main way. - Wait, oh, I got a, I got a say. - Yes, before we get completely off the topic. - Yes. - Is it, when I was talking about the characters walking or not walking, the biggest inspiration there was this YouTube video I saw about the Muppets. - Yes. - Because that is something they did so well, is you watch the Muppets, it never crosses your mind that none of their legs are moving and that they are all, that they all have a hand up inside them, you know? And it's always, they're sitting on a lily pad and it shows any other way to talk about that. And that was the script. - Exactly, they're so real to us. And they've done so many clever consumers. So yeah, I was definitely, you know, what would Jim Henson do mindset for a lot of that? - Yes, and that's, yeah, I mean, it's even down to, I mean, yes, like they're hiding their legs 90% of the time. Most people never even think about that really. Not to mention that if you're telling the story, right, or your characters are compelling or whatever. Like, I mean, maybe it takes a certain type of person, you know, like me to think, I rarely think about the fact that, like you said, there's a hand up inside of this cloth. I'm thinking, I'm not thinking that. So think about that level of logic leap. And then you're all you're asking to not think much about the fact that these characters are all on devices riding around. Like that's so much smaller of a thing to sell. And yet that's the reason why so many people didn't make a movie. - Well, right, because they, there is this person out there. At some point, someone's gonna see this movie and they will understand every technical flaw and every shortcut. It's like, yeah, you can't make a movie for that person 'cause they are the Grinch, you know? They're like, they're that little 1% of 1% of the audience who just kind of doesn't know how to watch a movie. But when you're making the stuff and you see the behind the scenes, you become that person. Yeah. - Yeah. - And I don't know. I actually, I don't even have a, I don't have anything to say to get out of it because it's like, I do it all the time still. I still watch the movie and I cringe at parts of it that no one else notices. - Sure. And, and it's, and again, that's that, that voice that you know, like, okay, some critic for whatever reason is gonna do that. And that's the client voice, that's the ego voice and getting around that person is, is really key to getting something on the page. I, I'm glad you brought that back up 'cause I wanted to, I wanted to say one more element 'cause I know we talked about this last time we chatted about getting around walk cycles. And I, and I started thinking about how, it's, I, I do this a lot and it's very like, business bro talks a lot about 80/20 rule but I think it's actually good. I think this is a good thought and I, and when you look at the animation budget of a film and you think 80% roughly spent on the walk cycles getting them right, like, but they're not only contributing to 20% of the vibe, you know, or 20% of the payoff. Like, if you can look at those projects and you can say, what are the projects you really, really wanna do? What's the thing that's like standing in the way? Like, is that a huge contributing factor to the quality of the thing? Or is it the part that matters to you? There are some people who, they got an animation because of walk, walk cycles. That's true, like, and they're all about that. So they can't skip that, but there could be writing songs that they don't do, you know what I mean? Yeah, so there's, so I think that it's just a real, and oh, and the other thing I thought was, did you swag away your thing or is that a thing? I think people were saying it, people were calling that, when the hoverboards were really popular. Okay. But yeah, it's not, somebody was like, are you gonna get sued for using the word swag? I was like, come on. It's not a real thing. I don't think so. I think it was like a colloquial term. Yeah, but I thought everyone... I don't know if I'd heard it, and I was cracking up at it, and I thought maybe I was like, it's kind of vaguely familiar, but still, any context. Well, they came and went. I mean, you don't really see those things anymore. Those little hoverboards, I think they all exploded. (laughing) And I thought this was my addition, because this notion of getting around the obstacle, Ryan Holiday calls the obstacles the way, and then I thought I could title the episode, Obstacle is the swag. Oh, that's so good. Right? Yes. (laughing) So, yeah, but I think that there's another piece I wanted to talk about, unless you had something. I don't wanna... Well, I kind of do have something here. Yeah, go. But it's mostly just a rephrasing of what you said, but I think it's true. Yeah. I mean, I think really coming from DIY, and doing shows, and that kind of stuff, I think one of the kind of core values you have there is, right, there's always another way, and there's always a free way. Like, whatever you want, there's a way to get it that's free. Like, or there's a solution that's free. Like, for us, and again, it's like, again, writing is free. A good voice performance is not free, but, you know, it costs the same as a bad voice performance. Yeah, and again, I think like, I don't know how much time we even have to talk about this, but it's like, my voice actors on this movie completely save the day. Because the way, the reason you can sit there and watch my animation for 90 minutes is because they are so, every single one of them is just like so captivating. They're great. And not to, I mean, don't sell yourself short. Yes, you do like a lo-fi kind of 3D thing. Like, it's always been kind of your thing, but it's gorgeous too. Like, I really do feel like there were tons of times where like, 'cause I went into it thinking, not always love, I love the aesthetic of your style. Your taste is great. You make great art. And, but I also expected like, it to be a little bit, I don't know, more lo-fi in a way. When really, it's like, there were tons of times where I was like, dude, the colors and the lighting and the way that it's working is just like, gorgeous. Like, there were several moments where I was like, dude, this is like, there's like, especially the, like these are probably the part of the script that were like, beautiful thing here. Like those moments were doing the trick. - So it worked, the script worked. I'm glad to hear you say that. Yeah. But I do think the cast is like, what makes it? - Oh, and they're girl. - I mean, it's like such a beautiful layer on top of it. Yeah. - And is it Chris Fleming, the hot dog guy? - Is that the hot dog guy? Yeah. - That is seen as hilarious. - It's so good. If people don't know Chris Fleming's work, I feel like at this point, everyone's probably seen him on Instagram or TikTok, but he does these just so, they're such intense like monologues in his car, where he's just like talking a mile a minute and every word he says is hysterical. And he is like, he'll cram like three or four like brilliant insights into one sentence. So when he came in, we had him for an hour. And I was like, I was pretty nervous. I was like, what if he is a dud? Like what if, what if that, what if everything we've seen is like, actually takes a lot of practice and like is-- - Yeah, you never know. - Really, you never, you never know with it. But he came in and it was like I was dying. He was, he had his script in front of him. We read through it one time as written. And then past that, he was just like improvving. So I think everything in the, everything his character, he plays a, yeah, he plays a man who lives inside the world's largest hot dog. And it's like, it's very much a philosophical, kind of Richard Linklaterie character who's just like musing about the world while the main character is waiting for his hot dogs. But yeah, he was a beast. I mean, he was, and I was just dying. Like, and you can hear, you can hear me laughing in a lot of the takes. Like from the other side of the recording booth, you can just hear like a little like high-pitched laughing where I'm like, gonna pass out. - That is incredible. - And I had two thoughts, one, but right before I jumped on here, I thought about what if I did a bit where all the way through this whole thing, I'm like doing my questions in different silly voices. - Oh, you're auditioning. (laughs) - I'm auditioning for the next movie. And then I thought that, oh man, I lost it. But I was, oh, I know, I was just thinking as you were, as we were talking about, oh, the hot dog guy, yeah. I was thinking, we could also record another interview sometime where it's just performance art, and there is no movie, 'cause right now, no one's seen this. - That's true. - So we could literally just do a whole-- - We could be doing that anyway. - You're like, wait until you say it's gonna be at the festivals, streaming like way in the future, but you know, in the hot dog and then catfish guy. - And we're just making stuff up the whole time. That's really good. - Yeah, it's real. - It does kind of feel like that. - It does a little bit. There's so many funny, and we didn't even get into so much. I mean, it's way weirder than what we're even saying. - It is, isn't it? - Yeah. - That's kind of good, though. I think people kind of just need to see it before, you know. - Yeah, it's very my taste, and I had such a great time. The last thing I wanted to talk to you about was, did you tell me that, I really can't remember if you said that you legitimately have a pet duck. - I have two pet ducks. - Okay, so you really, I didn't misremember this. I knew you were talking about ducks to me, but I was like, I was telling my wife like, did he say he had a pet duck? And she's like, yeah, he has a pet duck. And I was like, okay. So you have a pet duck. - Yeah, I have two pet ducks, sleepy and sneezy. They're awesome, they're great pets. I think more people should get ducks. - So you're gonna get the rest of the whole crew. If you get sleepy and sneezy, - You have to get go peeing. - Exactly, you have room for five more. And what I want to do is get all five of those, and then I want a sheep, and the sheep is snow white. - So how do you have that, that's great. How do you have these ducks? - Well, it's basically the same as. - Okay. - It's the same as backyard chickens. You have a little coop in your backyard, and they just live there, and they lay eggs every morning. - Nice. - That's kind of it. They're very sweet and social and extremely funny. - Oh, I love it, I love ducks. And the reason I think it came up last time, you said something about how you were just thinking about how ducks come out knowing how to duck, and humans don't. Is that what you're saying? - Yeah, I mean, it was something that was on my mind a lot when I was raising them, is they're perfect. They come out of the egg and they're like little, they're just machines. Like they just will live their entire life following these perfect impulses that tell them exactly what to do. And it's like, the other day there was a neighborhood cat in the yard, and it's like, even though they had never seen a cat before, they knew what to do. Like their instincts to run away from the cat were exactly right. And right, as people, we are born pretty much useless, and we have to learn everything, and it takes a really long time. And then it's also like, well, aren't you glad it's that way? Like, aren't you glad that like 10 years ago, you didn't know you'd be doing this? Or like, if you woke up and you were doing the exact life that you had planned out for yourself, that would be really unsatisfying, or that would be not the reason to become a creative person. So I guess my insight there would be to leave yourself open to learn and grow, not just in like a macho way of just like, I'm going to get better at drawing or writing or whatever, but like to grow in ways that you didn't even expect. - Basically, as you're writing the script of your life, make sure you have big swaths for pages that just say beautiful stuff there. - Wow. - Right? - Now Andy, that was good, that was good. - It's true, man, though. I honestly, you touched me. Like I was thinking like, I do such a shitty job of doing what you just described. And there are so many like twists and turns that happened in my life that I couldn't see seen coming that are the literally the best, juiciest parts. And it's just like, just like what you said. - Well, I don't think you do that shitty of a job. - I do a shitty job of over-planning. That's what I'm saying. I think, oh, okay, and it's an anxiety thing. And like I said, I like the plotter thing was a learned behavior, and it served me well. I'm proud that I learned how to start with the end in mind, both in career stuff and story stuff and all that. But it can become a crutch and a complete anxiety. - I think it's a grass is always greener thing. I think you have to pick a way that you're gonna be. And then I think obviously think you should look around. And I see, I've been looking at you and you're surrounded by like your books and your art and your creations and stuff. I definitely think you should take a moment to not be so hard on yourself and be grateful for the person that you are, then the brain that you have that got you where you are. 'Cause it's an awesome place. - And I really appreciate that. And I also think, but the point's taken. - I think creating those spaces to be surprised is so huge. And I feel like that's what I need right now too, because this is in some ways, some of the things that I've done are either what I planned didn't go to plan or it went exactly to plan, but the plan's over. And now it's the next things. Is that where you are? - No, not at all. I'm still very much in the middle of kind of dealing with this movie, distributing that and going to festivals. But I don't at all feel like, oh, that went exactly how I planned. Basically at no stage. The movie doesn't look or feel like I thought it would. It didn't, I didn't think it would premiere at Tribeca. I didn't think it would go to play it at airport in Japan. And yeah, at this point, I'm completely lost. I have no-- - It'd be hilarious if that was on your vision board though. - It's just like what this exact string of-- - The airport in Japan in 2025, that would be something. Dude, I literally could talk to you forever. I am so grateful to be able to chat with you because-- - See, we're right back at ya. - It's honestly, it's so fun. And it's all the kind of stuff that I just love. Thank you about talking about, so. - Thank you. And hopefully you come back another time. - Thank you, I'll come back tomorrow if you want. - Any of mine. - Yeah, just start a whole other podcast. - Yeah. - This was great, thanks man. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Massive thanks to Julian Glander for taking so much time to chat with me. I, honestly, I haven't had such a good time. It's so long, I was just through the roof and you've got to check out Julian's work. Go follow him on Instagram, GlanderCo over there. Check out his website, just search Julian Glander and it'll come up so much inspiring goodness and it really helped me tap back into my creative side instead of getting so locked into the business and the practice of it all, but really remember why I do this in the first place and how fun it can be to make stuff up, which is creative writing at its core. I told you I'd be back with a creative call to adventure. This is, the obstacle is the swag way. This is, find a swag way called to adventure. The idea here is just essentially realizing that just like in every story, the conflict is essential, not because we just need tension in our stories 'cause I don't need tension in my life, but because the tension in your life, in your story, isn't there to make it juicy. It's there to teach you a lesson that the conflict is the way in which you don't get what you want, it blocks what you want, but it gives you what you need. And the only way for you to find that lesson from the conflict is by embracing the conflict, is saying, okay, I don't live in New York City. I don't live in LA. And for whatever reason, my circumstance means I can't, but I wanna make a film or I wanna be an actor or I wanna be in television. Like, don't ignore that fact. Don't try to hide that fact. But instead, start thinking about what does it mean that I am going to make a movie from Ohio? What does it mean to embrace that limitation? For me personally, this has happened over and over again, where when I went to go make a podcast, instead of thinking, all right, I'm gonna go interview people. I knew that the internet connection I had at home wasn't gonna be good enough to do interviews. I didn't really understand how to do that. I had all of these obstacles and for the longest time it just meant that I didn't make a podcast. And then eventually I realized like, oh, I could record on my iPhone, like the microphone on the phone even 10 years ago was pretty good, was good enough to get started. And that was one of the reasons why I started the show as a monologue show. And that became its calling card for a long time. And the same goes for my creative practice at the start. When I first started, I wanted to make band posters, but I couldn't get anybody to teach me in a place where my college was to screen print on paper. And I didn't know anything about it. So instead I made an indie rock coloring book and it ended up being this obstacle, this reason why I didn't belong, this reason why I couldn't participate became the reason, became the creative fodder for how I created something that busted through the pack, that stood out from everybody else. And so my encouragement to you is, don't pretend like that obstacle, that thing that counts you out, the thing that stops you from doing what you're trying to do. Don't pretend like it doesn't exist. Don't write it off as nothing. Get really real about what are the things that are really holding me back from what I want as a creative person and how can they be the delivery method? How can they be the swag way? How can they be the thing that makes my creative project unique and different? And the only way you can do that is by embracing it instead of ignoring it. (upbeat music) Creative PepTalk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice. But that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline, to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same, where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not gonna get just from the apps. Go to AndyJPizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter and I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this street going and hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our e-booklet, the creative career path. It's a step-by-step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign up at AndyJPizza.substack.com. And let's keep this creative habit together. CreativePepTalk is part of the PodGlamorit Network. You can learn more about PodGlamorit at www.podglamorit.com. This has been another episode of CreativePepTalk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go along. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little weekend and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, AndyJPizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator and I make this show not because I have it all figured out but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay peped up. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately. And if you wanna check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you wanna test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself. And when you're ready to launch use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. - What if you could poke, prod and explore the mysteries of nature from wherever you are? I'm Nate Hedgy, host of Outside In an award-winning podcast from New Hampshire Public Radio. We cover all kinds of topics related to our environment with a healthy dose of goofing off, of course. Outside In isn't just a chauffeur through hikers and conservationists, it's a podcast for anyone who's ready to embrace their curiosity about the natural world and have some fun doing it. Listen every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
