(upbeat music) When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Aloe or Allbirds, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand and great marketing, but an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling and for shoppers buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does online business better than Shopify. It's home of shop pay, the number one checkout in the world. You can use it to boost conversions up to 50%, meaning way less hearts going abandoned and way more sales going through to checkout. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/income, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com/income to upgrade your selling today. That's Shopify.com/income. - Max Bankman, I'm the new doctor. - Welcome aboard the Odyssey. - ABC Thursday, this ship is heaven. We're attending our passenger streams. - I'm in. - From 911 executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a splashy new drama on a luxury cruise ship with Joshua Jackson and Don Johnson. - It's your job to keep everyone alive. - She's gonna be fed one, two, three, clear. - I have a pulse. - I'm gonna be okay. - Dr. Odyssey, Thursdays, 9/8 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. - Slow burn media and Bill Huffman present, who killed, a podcast that provides a voice with a voiceless. - If I was a detective, I would be looking through my bookcases for sure. - And December, 10th, you'd be aired an object on the death of 15-year-old Lori Ness in that night of viewer calling police with information that helped to close the 46-year-old kids. And Wednesday, crime tracker Tins Angela Ann revealed that information, helping both the readers ultimately solve the case. - Well, tonight, crime tracker Tins, Lisa Chris, continues our coverage as she explains how a crime analyst booked the pieces together. - And I think it was all about the people who used to call the cases in Central on my own. And I think to pretend that Angela Ann took the book for a nasty manner and had to investigate some back into Sunday. So when you got that official match, Lori says, "Go to the police." - I know, it was just a good idea. I couldn't believe what I was saying. - But it's best to get to just the clear case in the area. It's wrong to say Sam has matched NASA's case to 17-year-old Karen Lennox's case. - That's why I wanted to know the case now. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I can't believe it was a good idea. - And that shocked us. - Two decades old cases found. And then, on the vintage image, when you've been spent into an age of two and you've got to have the correct time of two or five, when you're only committed to violence, you've now passed away, considering the level of crime that kind, I definitely don't think it's possible. It is possible that it's just committed to other things. Best people are as well. There's no other departments in the area. Just look at the lookings and look for all the cases in that time. It's all the cases, no matter how low you are, you're having a good conversation, which is so hard. (upbeat music) (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter) (indistinct chatter) - Oh, and welcome to the episode. (indistinct chatter) I'm your host, Bill Huffman. And this is a slow burn-up media production. I am very lucky to be joined again this week. (indistinct chatter) Welcome back to the show, Nick. It is very nice to have you. - Thank you for having me back here. Bill, I've been begging to come on and I'm too busy and I got too much going on. I've been listening to the show and, uh-oh, no, I'm joking. I'm very happy to be on time. (indistinct chatter) - Yeah, you know, it's been really interesting. I've been focused these past few weeks on DNA cases and cold cases that kind of, you know, they kind of reach the realm once they cross that 40-year period or 30-year period where you're really grasping at straws. And I think I covered a case from 1953 and then I covered a case from 1972. And then the case that we're going to talk about today is actually, there's actually a couple cases within the topic that we're talking about. That is the case of (indistinct) He was actually killed back in '74. He was a student at Columbia High School. And I know that you being from Columbus, assuming you were aware of the case and when this DNA evidence came out just recently, it's something that probably hit close to home to you. What are you thoughts about, uh-oh? You know, glory is the breakthrough that just happened. - Well, truth told, Bill, I was unaware of the case, still they've made an action, still that (indistinct) decided that they made this connection to have case being closed out properly. And more high school to give a little background on the side of Columbus proper. It's a fairly, it would have been a fairly large school, even in '77. And this would have been a well populated area. The thing that really caught my eye when this came out connected to and saying, "Hey, these are the perpetrators having killed a young woman." I thought, "Wow, this is incredible because there were a lot of cases that were already on my far unsolved case from the early '77. I thought, "Well, these two maniacs are out there doing this." Sort of thing. We'll get into sort of things they were doing. It sounded familiar to me in regards to some of those others. So I was completely intrigued by the breakthrough case. And I'm showing Frank County Sheriff's Department, Columbus, Cal through. They've been and how best did they've been, typically Columbus told me at the past five, that I'm sure they looked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the two guys that we're talking about are Charles Weber and Robert Bigh. And he's got, I mean, he talked about some of the worst words. I mean, he talked about people's criticism in and out of the system. These guys from 1993, basically were terrorizing women in Ohio, talking that took so long for them to actually, you know, get connected to these other crimes. But two, those to the, you know, Attorney General and the tech basically, you know, ran the DNA again. And another thing that's so interesting about this case, the Lori's case, is that it was actually spawned from a tipster. And you know about this tipster. And that was, you know, a cousin of Karen Adams. Correct. So Karen Adams lived in that same area. Sorry. You know, so you have the side of Columbus, that kind of carried out quite all. Been gone. Reynolds for Black Lake area. And so all of. Both of. Right. Right. Everything involved in their production. Murder and then where the bodies were eventually found, are going to solve that, that. Part side of Columbus and then expand out. And. So it's all that same general area. And we talked about the same time frame, right? Within and about a year ago. Within six months. Six months. Yeah. And so. What we have here is Karen Adams. Cause. 10 TV, which is local. And Columbus. Probably the well, not probably. It is the biggest news out. They don't. And be. But they own. Columbus dispatch. As well as several radio station. I didn't realize. Yeah, that's, that's the big boy here in Columbus. And they ran a door. On. This day. And I believe that. When typically when something big or a big story hit. And. It's going to hit those other out. You know how. You. You. Having worked in the news. Yeah. Yourself. You know how. There's that. And so it aired on 10. But I believe the cousin was specifically referencing an order. Saying, Hey. This. This. Unsolved. For instance. Unsolved. Has so many similarities. I. Was. Which was. And. Sounds like that one was. Quickly. I've. No. No. In all reality, the heck case. Again, I'd mentioned. In. This was interesting because we had several law enforcement aid that are going to have. A lot of. Work. Because have. Rental. They're going to get involved. And now they're going to reach out. Frank County Sheriff's. Because Frank County Sheriff's part. One that had. Previous. Yes. And so. Technically. Somebody that I spoke with all the time. So. Okay. Here. Fantastic. Been a. Many years. Several different. Burglary. You know, I think he was the burglary division for a while. And also work. Robert homicide. And I'm not sure what division isn't now. I don't believe. Old take. Active. But. A very good. Active and. Offered his. Front. Offering up. What information they had in. Soft case. So that they can. Care notes. If in fact. This doesn't. Right. Are there. And. Both detectives that. Look at this. Front. And Frank. Counting both freed. There's so many similarity here. Have. We have to invest. Some. Further. Same. More. Yeah. And then it basically took a cop. You know, the cops to basically send in. A. That they were able to. Get from. Under. And. They eventually were. Mad. To. My. And of course, my. His initial reaction was. You know, ignited. I don't know how my DNA would have gotten there. But you know how things go. He's a liar and a killer and. A kidnapper and. And. Yeah. The. Guys were. We're. A. Doctors. Killers. And. They. Probably did this. More times than they've been. And what. The czar here is they've been caught a lot. Or. This kind of activity. And. And. They have both spent the majority of their adult lives behind bars. Because if not, something. They would have killed does. I'm. I'm not surprised. I'm. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, they absolutely are. I think you're spot on with that. I don't know what I would put that number at, but. They don't have the DNA or. You know. For those cases and. Yeah. Well, but they don't necessarily have the DNA from that particular. What I'm trying to say. I mean, they have their DNA. But. When it comes to cases, I mean, again, like. I talked about. And. I mean, I. I guess the 70s. Like. A day. Feel killers. Called that. Was. Communication between. Different authority. Different. And. They didn't have any. Or. Other than like a fingerprint. That. Anybody who. Crimes. Was probably going to be wearing gloves. But like these particular. These guys sound like. And. And. Again, if you get convicted for something like this within six months and I know it. They were. Second decade. Like committed. But. If they committed those two crimes is. Those heinous crimes, murders, kidnappings of two young women. Raping and assaulting them as well. And it's like. Well, what else did they do? Because that's just six months. I mean, I know that the one guy spent 34 years of his life. But. What were you doing when you weren't outside? Yeah. And I think in a lot of jurisdictions, I don't have. Proper criminal. Oh, hoarding with. Invicted felon is a. Well, it. And it's also a violation. That's kind of. Yeah, that's. Yeah. And there's a reason for that. You know, look. And I, why are you mentioning thing? Why are you mentioning this, Nick? Because the two guys met. When they were locked up. I was just going to go there. I mean, one of them was already locked up from bird. Yeah. I mean, hey, I think. Killed somebody with a ham. No. And I'm not. I couldn't find what the other guy was locked up. I would just take a wild guess. Say it was something along the line. I would bet attempted murder would be my first. Sure. So what we have here, Bill, is the situation that we. Or. Have people of like mindedness finding one another and the worst place. Could find like minded. Yeah. And that would be in prison. Yep. People serving long. And unfortunately, they weren't long enough. And there was a lot of overcrowding in prison. And unfortunately that. Made a lot of states let go out a little earlier. Wanted to and they could have. Ohio has been guilty of that. Several other states have been guilty of that. The worst that we saw was probably back during 70. But with with this case. The two. Mainly, two monsters. They're homicidal. Is what they are. And back up a second. I want to wait. Yeah, throw that text thing out there. What do you refer. Texas let out the broomstick kill. Okay. Who had viciously raped and murdered and kidnapped. Women and they let him out because they. The popular. The overcrowding was so bad in fact. That they started letting out the non violence. Okay. Well, once they let them all out the prison population was still overpop. They had to start letting out the violent fenders so much so that they let out. People that had been convicted of. Of murder and not just murder. They let out. Several women after they let out. That's all this guy. He's going to spend his time. Doing drugs, ducting, raping, killing women. And did that. Sestically after they let him out and is a large. Big part. They. You know, we think of text as. Does not take no shit from nobody. Right. Take no prisoners. Take no shit. And if you if you kill here in our state. Not only will we execute you, but we will put you on a fast track. That other state. Well, the reason why they had that fast track. Is the lessons they learned the. Sad truth of what it came. For them back. In 70s when they were forced to. I don't know. But when they felt that they were forced, but full like. The reason why I brought that up is because I personally didn't know much about that particular aspect of. In the 70s, and I was not familiar with the broomstick killer. So I just wanted to. Basically, hear what you were referring to. No, what you were. I think that. That also falls in line with what also was going on. That was the. The release of. All this type of insane asylum. We can't forget about that. When they were not allowed to commit people. Against their will. All the asylums. To where people of. You know. Bad bad people with bad bad thoughts. Find a lot of time. And. And they were. Wonder why home population. Like. Murders like. Seventies. Prime red hero. I mean, Robert buyer and Charles Weber. Right in with. The bad dude. Seven. And I mean, just picture them walking around in the pen talking about. And we get out of here. We're going to go. Yeah. You know, they have similar interests. Hey, we both like to rape and kill women. That's not good to. Have them together. I mean, I get that. Like you really. I know that they try to make an effort to not. I don't know if they make. Like. I know that. Well, you can't. When you're confining them in the same. Or fall. And not to. Allow kind of. The broom. The killer. Take over. This. Go. Or take over this. But. Was. You know, I cited him, but he was actually. That was from a, it was a problem that didn't start the month before. Here before it was probably started. Well, before they forced to let out some. Like, kind of stuff, but. I mean, convicted. Still two people that he was originally. Sorry, three people. He was originally. Sent to die. Free death. That were commuted to life. And prison. And then they paroled. Yeah, that makes sense. Totally. And so that tells you the state of affairs. The prisons come down in state. And so mine. Each state runs their own prison. And so that was the problem that went on then. Was for people that listened to crime garage. They might be familiar with. Kind of. Kind of stuff. Not just. We've not covered him. Specific. But. Was. And remaining. A lot of people's minds. Like. It. A. Possible suspect. The yogurt top. Hey. And everybody. Because he. Because he was out and in that general area. During time. And not only that. Said to some. Like he. He liked to play games with the cop. And said that. You know, like. When they asked him about yogurt shop. It was always very weird about it. And I think. I think even told them we did it, but. I don't think. I don't think. Number one. And. Number two, he said some other things like. Almost like the little link to crime. If had he done it, they would have. As bad as that whole thing was. He's saying had he done it, it would have been a worse. A worse. A worse. A worse. Yeah, because. Go ahead. Well, because with the yogurt shop market. And really, none of the women were sexually assaulted. Of. After one. Right. Or was. I don't want to get into the fix of yogurt shop because. That's a whole. I know. I know we've I did like a three part around it. At least at least one of the female victims. There were four female big. Because you would think, but I feel like with the yogurt shop case unless kind of McDonough. McDonough was with another dude. I mean, I think those two guys. I. Were the one. And people who probably have no idea talking about can go back. You're up to. Or who killed the girl. Yeah. So the thing that connects him yogurt shop is there was an abduction. And forter and murder of a woman. It was abducted. Not care far from top. Within. I would say within a year. So of your top case. And McDonough. Committed that crime with some. Yeah. So I'm telling you when you look at him and you look at your top. There's a lot of reasons to think they could have done it. I said on through crime garage that his mo was. To find a female victim. And take them. He did that almost every single time. And so I thought has always been with McDonough. His. His number one goal would have been to hate. Because. What he was interested in was the forter for his. Or so than anything else. All those other crimes only came about because wanted. Sexually assault torture women at the same time. And so would have removed all four victims from the yogurt shop. Yeah. With him. And that didn't happen. And that doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove that McDonough didn't do it. It's just my dumb garage penny. Now back to our case though. Mm hmm. What is interesting is to like find it individuals. Who meet prison. It's not a rare thing. Right. It's not a rare thing. I know that in cold blood. The clutter family. They were killed from two guys in prison now. They were killed for different reasons than what. Fire and. Webber were out things. But Lawrence Biddaker and Roy North out. California. I killed five people in 1979. Oh, it is cool. And. Whatever the other. Part. Part. Lee Lucas. Yeah. Henry Lee Lucas. Yeah. Did they meet prison? Because I know you think I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. How else was these two individuals meet? I mean, they weren't like the various social minded individuals. The other place they could be would be in prison because. We know Biddaker and Norris met prison. They were. They killed five women together in 1979. They met when. And lock up in San Francisco. Oh, this book. And then we have this. A lesser known. But I'm only fighting a couple. A lot more common than I think people are aware of, but. Team board and Frank Anna. They killed five. People in Santa Anna and Anaheim. In 2013 and. Four. They were both wearing. Ankle model. When killed by. They met under some. What do you have here? Well, unfortunately. What? Like fire and. Webber. Having. And they might not really fully understand. They are. But. By understanding and my belief with. Types of monsters are the. Number one. Above and beyond. Often what we see in. It. To get to guys that are locked up for rape. And then they start talking with the other and they. Then they both have the same. Understanding of their crime. Well, I was convicted. I only got caught because. Pardon my French. I'm going to talk like I'm going to get. I only got caught because. That bitch I didn't. She. She. You know, she went to the cop. She was able to. I. Was able to. Tell them what kind of car I would. Or give them some kind of evidence. And they start to develop this idea that you know what. If I would have killed her. She wouldn't have been around to. To tell anybody. She wouldn't have been able to tell anybody that I was driving a blue van or green pickup truck or a white. Buick. She wouldn't have been around to tell them that I was. To wear a cowboy hat blue team. And they and the week. And they start to go, you know what. When I get out after I get out from serving eight and 15 years, whatever it is for what I'm what I put in. I ain't leaving. I'm never going to stop. You're not going to get me to stop sexually assaulting. I'm not going to stop that. I'm just going to change my game. And I'm not going to leave. That bitch alive to tell them anything about. And they'll never catch. And the reason why these guys do it and it's so. For them to make the split from rape to murder. Is because they're raping because they hate women. They want to destroy women anyway. So it's not that big of a leak for them to go. All right. I want it. I've been doing this. And now I'm going to go to graduate and murder. Because they were so close to doing it before. Now they have some other a hole here. This cheer. Come on. This is not only that. I'll help. And so guys buyer and. Webber. Basically what they're doing. Do I have hobby? You got some hobby. I'm guessing that our hobbies are pretty regular. White bread. Vanilla hobby. Right. I like to watch football. I like to go out with my buddies and play cards. Throw darts. Wait, wait, wait. Go. Forgetting about. Like good. Oh, wait. Right. These guys. They're hot. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, let's go out. Have strength. And then we'll drive around in my van or my pickup car. Got to be a fan. Got to be a fan. Well, but for what they want to do, a van offers a different kind of mobile structure than what a vehicle. Then a card. Right. They're. They're. Their number one goal. Webber and buyer is the. The rate for. Just like we talked about McDuff. His fascination was with the torture for a portion of his crime. All those other crimes were necessary because wanted for sure a woman. Webber and buyer. All of their other crime are necessary for them to commit because they want to. Right. A woman. And you said something earlier about you're a little surprised that weren't solved. Frankly, I'm not surprised that they went. It took so long. Because. 95% made probably four. It's in the high percent. Of the murders and homicides that have been in this country is because somebody is bad at somebody. And these are full that no one. Built is something. You know what? I'm going to get revenge on him and made by assault. I'm going to lose it. I'm going to turn into murder. Maybe I didn't tend to murder Bill, but it ended up being that way. What have. But the nine some percent of the murders, homicides. Country are all of one person being angry at another individual. And so. When you have. The convicted felon. Who are already there. They're violent bird. Or something. Individual. They're driving around drunk, probably still drinking in whatever vehicle. And I'm, I'm not trying to sell a band. The band. I own a van myself. All right. Yeah. Do own. But. What I'm pointing out again, a van offers a different type of structure. It offers a different type of faith. For the guys to do what it is that they want to do. And unfortunately for the victim. These are just complete crimes of opportunity. These guys are unorganized. Unorganized. Your real sex defense is what they. 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And this was typical behavior for them. And why did they kill on night A, not kill on night B? Sadly, in this situation is probably because they didn't see anybody. Yeah, you know, it's like, you do these things, you go out, you go, not like, when we're talking about hobby, we're saying guys, enjoyed prowling stuff like that. Like, you said, okay, they go out three or four nights a week. We're not saying that they went out until three or four women a week, because, you know, generally speaking, if you do, if you do that at that high of a volume, chances are you're going to get caught sooner rather than later. I think when you when they didn't kill, I think they probably either one didn't come across a victim, or if they did come across a victim, the circumstances were one they have already been seen, or, you know, there was eyewitness. And again, like these two girls, Karen Adams and Florian Easton were abducted in probably very, very quick amount of time. It doesn't take very long to drag somebody into your van and cruise off if there's nobody in sight. And then if somebody turns the corner, who's walking around the block, they wouldn't even know that girl was there. So I think in these particular cases, it is, I mean, they're clearly crimes of opportunity, but they're also seeking out these crimes. And then I think they're making choice whether or not is this one going to get us caught. I mean, I really don't feel like going back jail. But I mean, it's the rate. No, it's just tough to get in the mind of a killer when you're not a killer. Well, it can be, but individuals aren't particular top left. No, they're they're very, I mean, they're Neanderthals. Yeah, they they have very little in the way of priority. They have no goals. What they are, they don't, again, they're unorganized defenders that it traditionally, what the numbers tell us, they have no need to, I don't want nor need either. I, because you don't know who their victim's going. It won't know them. And if you're out driving around and you're not picking, you're not throwing somebody in your van or until midnight or one in the morning or two in the morning. And they look, what, where they are, these guys are not intelligent. In definition, they're intelligent at getting away what they want to do, because a, they've done it before and got away. They've done it before and got caught. So trial and error, they've learned something to and something not. And what they are looking for, it's male victim. They're not particularly particular about who their victim is. They're, they're looking for the opportunity. What is the opportunity? female victim is sold out by herself that we happen to come across. And there's, this so happens to go cars, nobody else, yes, to identify our vehicle or plate number. What, what our description, our physical description is, and then think about the, the way that they, the body gap. There's, there's just pull up and throw the body in a ditch them. And why, because they have no, there's no reason for them to go to the length, the measure of the body, because there's no connection from the victim to them. And as that is, it may that's what these guys did. What is our proof that they, that they've done it multiple times? Guys are serial killers work together. Our proof is, A, the one guy was already locked up from murder. And when he gets out, he's become buddies with the other guy, and then they go out murder together. And as Bill said, within a six month period, they managed to abduct and murder two different women. And then in 1977, in 1977, they're convicted for a two separate incident in Northwest though, where they did basically the same thing. They just were unsuccessful in the killing force, where they, yeah, Toledo area, they abduct rate and attempted murder on two different victims and different, and two different separate attacks. So what they did there, like, it looked to me, Bill, from what I, of course, Karen, Adam, and Lori, looks like they were probably strangled. And if I have that wrong, I know you'll correct me, but they don't, they don't mention, they don't mention too much about, like, how they're, how they're, you know, odd, odd topics are, you know, I know that, like, she was found to, so, so, that's, to me, that's, and discarded that way. That's, and I hate to use that word because we're talking about human being, but that's what it was to these guys. These guys didn't think even, like, last week, I did a case, and the guy in that case, he says at one point during his, like, you know, when he's confessing, he's, well, I put jacket over her, that didn't want her to pull. I mean, there are different types of, so that's weird for people to try to craft, but, like, people who respect women, kill them. I mean, I don't think there's anybody that's, that's like that. I mean, I just think that there's a, I don't know, killers have different motivations, but these guys in particular, they're motivated strictly to get what they want out of it. That was too, I hate to use this, because it sounds so colonial, but rape and pillows, you know, these are women, and it's kind of almost like these guys were pre-programmed to do this kind of stuff. I mean, sure, they meet the president, Myers already there from Bird or Weber, you know, I'm, is there probably for assault, you know, it's just, it's so interesting that they had four years where they could have been I think if I'm an investigator from that area, from anywhere in the state of Ohio, I am going to look any case that, that involve any, any young female at all. How can I look at these guys for every single case, but their propensity, I mean, he even says it in his confession, we would go, we would go out and prowl, we would sexually assault. And I mean, like, that sounds like he's boasting about. So, they, according to the detective, I mean, one, that's one of the killer's own work. Yes, exactly. We would get together and we would go out and drive around, look for a victim. And then later, you have the detective saying, hey, guys, we're out drunk, they would get nice, nice and lubricated and drunk and go out drink and drive and look for a victim. And unfortunately, some nights they found, and then with the case, I guess the problem, the attempt to, why going back to translation, that seems to be things that killers get wrong, most often, from the case I've reviewed, where they think that they've successfully killed someone, but they later come to and they've even gone to the point where they've discarded or dumped the body, unfortunately. And then, fortunately, the victim wakes up as humble and is able to tell, believe what happened and who abducted them, what they did to them. And two guys blocked up from one of them for 10 years. I don't know when the other one went in. Yeah, it doesn't sit. And here, think of the continued freak of bad luck for just unity. They get out roughly about the same time. So, they're out for that freak of four-year time period before they're convicted of attempted murder up in Northwest. So, yeah, and then they spend a good amount of time in prison. Again, I think they're really, what, 2001? Well, I think Weber died, too. Weber dies in '92. '92 or '92 or '92. 2001 fired. But then in 2011, fire is then convicted of the atom case. And it's not until 2021 they connect fire and Weber, the neat thing, which they had already, Weber confessed to the atom case at some point while he was already stopped. So, a lot of all their crimes that they did after '73, they likely did all of them together. Sounds like, to me, that doesn't mean that it's impossible that they did them separately. It's just fear probably was fear for them together. It's scary to think about the number of victims that they possibly could have. Because talking about a four-year time span, talking about probably doing this very frequently or for wanting frequent. And think about the far side of Columbus in Toledo. That's not close proximity for people that are listening in other states. What's the drive time? We're talking two hours. We're talking two hours and we're talking about you can go 70 to 75 and you go up 75 and you're going to go thinly. You're going to go through Bowling Green. I mean, I would look at cases around Bowling Green area. I mean, out of the poet around there. Then you have Toledo. I mean, we're not talking about, I mean, Ohio, a lot of people think of Ohio as straight up farmland. Yeah, we have a lot of farmland. But we also have a lot of big cities. We have a lot of bigger cities than most people think of. They think about Kingston, Addie, Columbus, Dayton, Cleveland, Toledo, Youngstown, Akron. I mean, yeah, that's what I'm saying. We're all talking about 200,000 people in all cities. Columbus is obvious. I think the most populated. Because you have such a damn large. Your city is so much larger than Cleveland. It's hilarious. Like our proper is so much smaller than Columbus. Columbus is for all. Oh, it's in its crazy. No, it's not going to hand. I mean, Columbus is like the mecca of the food, fast food world. And I mean, it's like, if you ever, if you're like, if a company wants to pass something out, they go to Columbus. It's crazy. Well, Wendy's was founded. Well, Dave Thomas, absolutely. Absolutely. I've been to the, I mean, is it the original downtown? That was the second one. Okay. Well, you know what? That might be the first one. It was actually originated from Dublin. Oh, okay. Oh, hi. But it's faultful. So I don't know if that means the first one was in Dublin or if Dave Thomas from Dublin. Yeah, not to go on it. Fast food. Yeah. That's a whole nother story. Welcome to, welcome to fast food nation. Bill of it. Correct. Did you check out the latest chicken sandwich? Wherever? Yeah. Anyway, back to the story. I did it quick. And so we were high school. Now, one of the victims here was have witnesses that hung out through that. You know, fortunately, guys found her. Well, they were out trolling middle night and had gone to football game. That's, I mean, it doesn't get any more Ohio than that. High school, you go to every high school home football. And if you're lucky enough, you're popular enough to get invited to a party or two after or go to a friendlies or go to friendlies or subway or wherever this belt, but local film was popular enough to go to the friend. I was popular enough to just go home. But our victim here, unfortunately, was popular enough to be invited to a couple parties that they attended at least one of them after. So these guys were picking them up in the middle of night football, and still 10 10 30. I mean, again, it's dark. And in the seven, not like we're talking about, uh, people were very tired, not like there were cameras, CCTV lights everywhere like there are nowadays. I mean, it is, it was probably a heck of a lot easier to to abduct somebody at 10 30 than it is now at 10 30. I mean, just in that area alone, brighter, more, uh, I mean, cameras and ATM cameras, banks, cameras, everyone. Oh, yeah, especially once you get back to, uh, like white call is today is very inner city. I don't think it would have been that way in 1970. Uh, and Reynoldsburg would have been very much a ghost town after after 11. Yeah, Reynoldsburg isn't Reynoldsburg kind of, I don't want to say the boon kind of, uh, no, not quite, because you have a, you have a lot of suburb, uh, today, uh, that Reynoldsburg might have been a little boonies in 70, 37. Uh, so Columbus, it just seems like a good place to ditch the body if you need your body. Well, that's what they're doing. They're, they're, they're picking her up from a location and then they're driving away from some body. Done. Today, Columbus 14th most populous city. United States. That's, I feel like we're sky rocket. Yeah, I don't feel like just years ago was like 16. Well, you back increased your population every year where Cleveland loses popular every year. It's a weird thing, but I think it also has to do with Ohio and the fact that you have for all a much bigger area to kind of, uh, build out Cleveland are kind of locked in by the lake. So, um, it is one of these days that university is going to own if well, it doesn't say what are you talking about? It's just more fun to say it that way, Bill. Um, but to not to freak anybody out, but talk about what guy should have been up and we'll talk about old cases that are out there. According to the Ohio attorney general's office, old case homicide database, they have there are over 200 full case homicides in Ohio, and I tell you, Bill and everybody else out there, and that number, they're, they're missing people from that. There are, there are unsolved homicides this state that I know that have not made their way because the way that database works is on the investigating age back for them to supply the information to basically submit their case to data. They don't bother to do so. It doesn't end up on data. So what we do know is over 2200 confirmed unsolved homicides, state of Ohio, and a quick, uh, Google map, Toledo, Ohio, 2004, Academy Heights in Columbus is a two hour and 29 minutes. Yeah, that's a lot of land. There's a lot of pitches between those two. And I'm not kidding. When I like, you talk about, you know, I know these guys were convicted of, you know, Karen Adams was 17. So that's the reason why I think of like, okay, 18 year old, still fall in line. I mean, you have the universe thinly. You have, uh, again, University of Toledo, Bowling Green, uh, all these different colleges and universities along that path. It, there's got to be some connection. Some of those unsolved cases, those parts of state that are related to buy or whoever. I mean, it seems almost impossible that they didn't do more. I, I used to believe. And like, like you said, you bet your, you're going to bet your van farm. I'll bet my, yeah, I bet my house. It's there. At the very least, there are assaults that they were never convicted of. Uh, and I could almost hear. There must be. Right. And there must, um, all right. Well, nevermind. I'm, I'm strike that from record. I don't want to go down that. Well, you know, and I'm, I'm not changing gears here, but what I, what I'm trying to point out the list and, you know, we're lucky enough. Both have a lot of listeners and a lot of good ones. State of Iowa listing. Think about the way this went down. Karen Adam homicide in the early 70s was not solved until 2000. Okay. And then we have Lori Easton case not solved until one, one, one. And her case solved because somebody notified the Reynoldsberg department says, hey, that sounds a lot similar to, to how the Karen Adam. So what I want to throw out there, these guys were on the loop and actively working and abducting and filling together from 73 late 76 or sometime at 77. I don't have the exact conviction take when they were right. And I would, I'm guessing it might have been to subscribe, but I'm, I'm, this is a call to all the listeners out there in, in the state of great state of Ohio, especially those that are have awareness from Columbus, Ohio up to delete. Yeah. That's again, 200 to two and a half hour drive time between those two. If you are aware of a cold case, especially if it's a woman found by herself, it's alongside the road or corn field. Murder cold case from that time period, that's been for three years. A simple call of, hey, this sounds a lot similar to what guys and it's a question where the bill said, may not have victim, may not have been able to get a off of certain victims, any number of reasons. It was seven to 37. They might not have known for it. These two cases and added and they may not have been actively storing the DNA, they may have acted towards victim flow. And, and we know that the one case, that's how they recovered the DNA. So, these, these are guys that I think could still be connected to you and I are both in, in 100 percent. They've, they've done and committed other crime. They, these could be other homicides. And if they were, they're unsolved. And these are guys that could be connected to some other case. And I'm intrigued by, because I hope that a lot of red flags went up for different sheriff's department, police department, across the state. Look at guys that are, let's close another case, get another case off of, off of the desk and close it. I don't want to use the word closure. No, no. The more I do this, the less I believe in it. And, but let's provide answers to those in having what happened. Yeah, I would agree 100 percent. I think that you did a good job of calling, you know, call for action. It's definitely something to talk about. I mean, again, this case solved by the tip of, of relative, but still somebody, it was a tip. I mean, really is amazing. If people pay attention, cases that they have in their neighborhood that are unsolved in the 70s. And you think there may be a connection? I mean, hit a prime stop, hit a local, not like some of these towns, you know, you could be in a small town. There might be one unsolved murder along the way, because how many small towns were between here and Toledo, like we were saying. Exactly. I mean, I mentioned the big cities, bigger cities, college, but again, it is different places to start a body. And that's, you know, I hate to say that sounds like take away from who the victim was. They were a person, but it's true. I mean, it's what they're trying to do. They're trying to get rid of the evidence, basically protect their ass of not get caught. Basically, that's what guys, I mean, this whole, this whole story, the, you know, Charles Weber and Robert Myers individuals are a stain of the state of Ohio. And just think that there were other killers. I mean, there, I know there were two killers in Toledo in the 70s that were also doing similar things. It's crazy, man, like to think that these people are out there, and they, they just live amongst them. And it's important for people to provide it, not that closure, but provide evidence of, okay, provide evidence for the particular cases. I mean, it's one of those things that if there aren't enough people to share the information to the officers, then not get closure on the case. Basically, all I'm saying pay attention. Do your due diligence. If there's an unsolved case, contact your local authorities, because you never know who might be involved in these guys. Their DNA is in the record, so they can at least do a preliminary DNA check if there's DNA in the. That's exactly right. But 100 everything said there. And while we're talking about cold case, you don't mind if I could throw in a little plug here before we wrap up today. The Ohio History Connect is placed near and dear to my heart. They're locally here, trumpet, and done. When I say we am captain, I've grabbed the two events for them and passed a discussion about now solved cold case from Trump. So we also did a discussion on Sam's effort for still care. They pillaged him. But on Thursday, August on day of this year, I will do not crime fraud, but I will be doing virtual for Ohio history connection. And that was a cold case in Ohio, cold case conversation with myself and James Brenner and some of the process of that will be going to obviously the Ohio history connection. And some of that will be going forth like well, so there's anybody want to join in or listen in on our Ohio cold case conversation. Check that out. You can find more information very easily go to Ohio history. Cool. Got any other pluggables out there? Yeah, listen to the crime garage. Second best show next to who killed. If you like who killed, then you're going to almost like crime garage. Well, that's quite the compliment, but I know you're just at the back. But no, I do believe true crime garage is the best podcast out there. And I mentor along the way and a friend and not a mentor. Well, you started off as a mentor and it became a it's very fun to just get very, very informative listeners. I know love listening to you on the show. And all the great episodes that you and the captain. Well, and another thing we should probably mention well and offer our support family of the missing individuals from their their lives, people they're searching for. There is an Ohio missing first event. Cleveland, I don't have information in front of me far as the location, but that will be September 18th. It's pretty easy to find the information if just look up a Ohio missing event. I think what you're looking for that is being put on from my understanding from the department and attorney general. So I'm hoping to be able to make it up there for that event to walk around it and get some their victims. I mean, there are people that are looking for their missing club funds. And Bill, I'm hoping if I'm able to make it, I'm hoping to be there. Yeah, I plan on hooking up with you and James is around. We'll make our rounds and, you know, again, it's not a convention. It's a place where victims kind of kind of misgrade together. It's kind of one of the things that I try to focus on with the provide tonight. I do say it in the opening, providing voice. And that's basically my whole goal, because a lot of these women are just forgot. You know, if the family members aren't found to hear them on, you're on the law enforcement, to all the cases. So I think it's important to participate in those events. And I think that's all very good information. And I Well, in providing a voice to the voiceless, thank you for doing that. And thank you for picking the case to this week, because that's what we're on on several occasions where somebody voice came out from the crowd, out from nowhere said, Hey, take a look at this case. Hey, take a look at the evidence, take a look at the case, because it appears this. And so where the case are incredibly tragic, sad and heartbreaking, at least there was the voice for Karen Adams, there was a voice. We also need to look at what else. I agree. And I'm glad they're both dead. Yeah, not the women. Of course. Yeah. Because these, these, and we are also lucky that they spent the majority of their adult, the lockdown, because it just these situations amongst actually talked about the five horrific crimes they called. It shows what who they, what and what they. Yeah, if they would have been able to run for years, for decades, talking about the lift. Correct. Nick, I know you got a role. And man, it's always awesome to talk to you. And I know I love it. So thank you so much for your insight. And again, your time, I know it. Thank you, Bill. It's always, it's always fun. Thank you so much again to Nick from the True Prime Garage podcast for taking time out of free schedule to join me this week, discuss variety of full cases, as well as the crazy guy, Robert Meyer, Carl. As you guys know, I do drop new episodes who killed every Friday where it's a podcast. So right now, it's all in my episode. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, on the link, I'm showing up, or you can contribute to the show via Ben. You can also help support the show by getting a five star review podcast and those five stars do help keep the import case covered, such as Amy's, all the other, okay, up, stay up, stay up, stay up, have covered, shows some pipeline. Please don't hesitate to follow Twitter, Bill. Thank you again so much for listening to Nick from the podcast, try all their stuff. Twitter have not so highly recommend it. And until next time, be healthy and easy. 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