VIEWPOINT with Chuck Crismier
TRANSLATING JESUS
(upbeat music) This is Viewpoint with Attorney and Author Chuck Chris Meyer. Viewpoint is a one hour talk show confronting the issues of America's heart and hope. And now with today's edition of Viewpoint, here is Chuck Chris Meyer. - Eight years ago, I took my three oldest grandsons on a climbing expedition to the mountains of California, Northern, Southern California, to climb a 14,000 foot glaciated peak. The whole idea was to disciple them in how to endure difficulties so that in their lives, they would be able to live the Christian life in a way that was consistent, no matter how difficult the circumstances would be. Well, we had no idea that we would be challenged to the level that we were. Because at 12,000 feet, I fell. I had a 60 pound pack on my back, and when I fell, I tore my ACL and my meniscus with which left me almost with just one leg to walk on and had to descend from there, 8,000 feet of elevation. Now, what are we gonna do? Well, there was a doctor that arrived on the scene there, and as he oversaw the circumstances, he said to us, "This is epic." In fact, it was so epic that it actually made television not only in California, but across the country. Our little circumstance there, and I had to walk it out. The epic walk down 8,000 feet of elevation to get to our vehicle because I did not want to take a rescue. It would have defiled everything that we set out to do. But what is epic? When that doctor said, "This is epic," what did he mean? Well, that's a good question because it involves a considerable amount of, shall we say, translation. For instance, the common definition of epic, an epic isn't epic if it's a long story about a hero that serves as an organizing point of cultural or social identity. It can also be used as an adjective to describe something historically important, lasting and complex. It's also used of a person, event or action, suitable for the subject of an epic poem, characterized by heroic and arduous endeavor. But here's what the urban dictionary says about it. The first definition is that epic is a synonym for crap. The second definition is that it means classic, cool or old-fashioned. So here's my question for you today. What did the doctor mean when he said, "This is epic"? What would you think he meant? What would our culture say that he meant? Apparently, it depends on what part of the culture we're in. Now, our guest today on viewpoint, on the back of her book, it says that she, along with her husband, co-leads a church called Epic Church. Well, what does that mean? What is an epic church in light of the various definitions of epic? Well, that leads us then to the point of our conversation here today because the title of her book is Translating Jesus. How does share your faith in language today's culture can understand? Well, what does epic mean anyway? What do we mean when we talk about Jesus? What do we mean when we talk about the kingdom of God? Are we talking about a dictatorship? What are we talking about when we talk about Jesus about the kingdom of God? Well, today on viewpoint, we're gonna let Shawna Pilgrine help us to understand this with her book, Translating Jesus. She's epic, apparently, with her husband Ben. She has four kids and that's an epic in devil right by itself. Shawna's gonna have you on the program. - Thanks for having me, Chuck. - Well, what did you think the word epic meant? - Well, I think you've used it more in the past few minutes than we've probably been using it in the day. So when we set out to plant epic church, yeah, we've been here almost 14 years. We, the name means, yeah, it needs a story, a tale. It also means being a part of something that's bigger than yourself and so I think the idea of being able to be a part of the story, the redemptive story that God is writing for all of us, that's particularly planting the church in San Francisco, the story that God is writing. - Well, that's epic in and of itself, isn't it? Historic, that's courageous. (laughing) Okay, well, I thought it might be interesting just to use this play on words because in fact, that's really to a certain extent what your book is about. It's about translating Jesus, but what does he mean? What does Jesus mean in our culture today? If you were to talk to a relatively or radically liberal Democrat, what would they say? If you were to talk to a very conservative Republican, what would they say? If you were to talk to the average professing Christian in America, what would they say? If you were to talk to the average educated person in America that you didn't know whether they were a Christian or not, what would they say? What is a Christian who is Jesus? That's a tall order in a culture like ours when we were just told yesterday that by Dennis Prager that the divide in our culture today is so great that it's unbridgeable. What would you say? - There were several questions there, I think. - That was a pretty pregnant silence there, Shauna. (laughing) - Sometimes I was clear if that was directed to me or if that was directed to the audience. - Oh, okay, got you off the hook, okay. - Yes, yes. Yeah, what you just think about, how do we translate these to people? Again, we can put them in their different camps. We can put people in their categories by how their status, their class, where they live, what they do, what they believe, what they practice. We live in a culture where there's just some melting pot all over the world of just different cultures and ethnicities and values and viewpoints that all can live in just one small geographical area. And so I think it's just so important like when we think about just the ways of Jesus, just approaching the person for who they are made in the image of God. Of course, it's very easy for conversation to go to politics or conversation to go to, you know, breaking news or for it to go to, yeah, just circumstances in our own lives or things that we're going through. And I think Jesus just in his conversations with people, we can model that same thing of just talking about what people are talking about, talking about their needs or things that are going on in the world. But I love that every conversation can always get pointed back to God 'cause everything originates with him. - Well, that's what we do here on this program. It's called viewpoint. We say viewpoint determines destiny and the reality is that we take the issues of our time. We talk about issues here on this program that nobody but nobody across this country will touch with a 10-foot pole, but we always directed in the context of the kingdom of God. How do you do that? Well, you have to be able to translate it. You have to be able to translate it in such a way that it's understandably because Jesus dealt with those very kinds of things right there in his culture. We'll be right back. That's what we do. Once upon a time, children could pray and read their Bibles in school. Divourses were practically unknown as was child abuse. In our once great America, virginity and chastity were popular virtues and homosexuality was an abomination. So what happened in just one generation? Hi, I'm Chuck Chris Mar and I urge you to join me daily on Viewpoint where we discuss the most challenging issues touching our hearts and homes. Could America's moral slide relate to the fourth commandment? Listen to Viewpoint on this radio station or anytime at saveus.org. (upbeat music) - Welcome back to Viewpoint, my friends. We have heard in years past the WWJD, what would Jesus do? Well, that was not the original expression of that phrase. That came by the great, great grandson of the author of a book that sold 100 million copies in this country that was based upon, yes, what would Jesus do? But that's not the title of the book. But he asked the question throughout his book, what would Jesus do? And so his great, great grandson picked up on that with the WWJD emphasis. But what would Jesus do? If you listen to people who profess to be Christians today, you would be hard pressed to know what Jesus would do because they have many, many different opinions. So what would Jesus do? Our guest today says in the introduction to her book, we're communicating more than any generation before us, but is anyone listening? We're trying to be understood, but the people we talk to don't know our language and what happens when someone doesn't understand what we're saying. Well, we've got the same problem even within the church today. People aren't talking the same language. It's almost as if we don't know what Jesus would do because we have exactly opposite views of what Jesus would do. Yet our guest today says I define Christianity as practicing the teachings of Jesus. By the way, I agree with that. You believe in Jesus, you've confessed your sin, you've received your salvation, and you practice, you live that out in obedience. Christianity is practicing the teachings of Jesus. So I have a question for you, Shauna. Why is it that the word obey has become the most hated word in the church today as confirmed by many, many pastors live on this program? - Well, I didn't know that was the thing, but I think just as being even a mom of four, obedience is a hard thing. We've got our own way of doing things and we think our way is right and to think that we have to choose a way that maybe isn't what we would choose or to go a path that maybe we didn't originally begin ourselves. I think obedience means that we've got to first surrender our ways. - So when you talk about practicing the teachings of Jesus, it doesn't have to do with our feelings. It has to do with what Jesus has said. - 100%. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And if anyone is to follow him, we have to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him. - All right. George Barnum, about 10, 15 years ago through one of his studies determined that only 20% of professing Christian young people believe that Jesus Christ is the only way, the only truth and the only life. That would mean that 80% of professing Christian young people don't believe that Jesus is the only way, the only truth and the only life. How do you communicate across that divide? There's no commonality, is there? - Well, it's interesting because in our society today, I think almost everyone would have some, there's something in all of our lives, and it would look different, but there's something in all of our lives where we would say, we actually have to align to a particular practice or guide book or policy in order to do that well. So for instance, your work might have guidelines that you have to adhere to if you're going to keep that job. Or obviously, we know just even like getting around town, there's rules and regulations, speed limits, there's things that we have to follow, it's a way of life, and it's there for our good and for our benefit. - True. - And I think, but again, I think it's a different thing. You know, this is why I think a lot of people keep from entering into the Christian lives because there's a rule and a way of life that requires the surrender, requires faith, requires trust, that not everyone wants to adhere to. - Exactly, but those rules themselves are not translated effectively. - What do you mean? - Well, I dare say that the majority of Christian young people today that George Barnum was talking about would say, yeah, I trust Jesus. Yeah, I love Jesus. But the reality is they confessed with their own mouths that they did not believe that Jesus was the only way, the only truth and the only life, which means they have bought in, in the name of Jesus, they bought into a cultural definition of religion, of faith, of how do you get to heaven? So how do you communicate? It's as if they've completely changed the language even of the faith. - I think a lot has to do with listening and just hearing, you know, if you were sitting down with one of the young people that you're referencing, just listening to, hey, what are you getting? Like, what are you experiencing just in your life right now with Jesus? And I think a lot of times the things that are a part of our day really are bare fruit to what we're putting in, the inputs that are coming in and the outputs that are going out. I think a lot of times a lot can be made clear just simply from listening to one another and just hearing them out. And it could be that, yeah, that they've walked away or they're not in the scriptures anymore. They've let other inputs inform what they would say is the truth that they're following. - Okay. So in other words, what you're really saying, Shawna, is that this matter of translating Jesus in today's culture is a much, much bigger challenge than any of us would want to really admit. - It is, it is a challenge, but it's also just a way of life of what God has called us to do. - Exactly. - It's called to come alongside one another. And I really think listening is such a huge first step that even I'm guilty of ignoring, 'cause I just want to get right into talking or to sharing my face or to helping someone understand how they get there. When I really think it's such an important step, just to first of all, listen, to hear where that person's at, what they're experiencing. Again, 'cause there's so much that I think if we listen, we just play love and hospitality, which Jesus was so great at. And I think in just playing that love and hospitality opens up the door to have that conversation, to bring the truth of Jesus Christ into. - Well, I agree with that. And in fact, my wife and I years ago, when we were still living in California, I attend a book called The Power of Hospitality, an open heart, open hand, and open home will change your world. And indeed, I agree with that. I agree with that wholeheartedly. And I also agree with your statement that we need to be able to listen. We need to be able to listen more effectively. Jesus seemed to do that, didn't he? - Yeah. - It seemed that Jesus listened very carefully, but then he was able to take what he heard and translate it. For instance, I'm thinking of the woman at the well. Now, there was a woman that was not that dissimilar from American culture today. (laughs) And God, Jesus asked her to pull some water out of the well. And he did and he said, but if you knew what I could provide to you, you would never thirst. Well, that opened the door for her and she didn't understand a clue what he had to say. But then she said, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. You told me, you asked me to go tell my husband, get my husband, but I don't have. What husband are you talking about? I've had, I have one husband and he says, yeah. And you had four before that. That sounds like our culture today, doesn't it? - Yeah, but so much other, I love that you're bringing up that story, Chuck of the Samaritan woman. And I just think about even some other moments that we read about in that story in the gospels is that one, Jesus puts himself there. And I think so much of like, as Christians, we don't even wanna go to those places where we're gonna have those encounters 'cause we don't wanna talk to those people or we don't know what to say to those people. - Well, he had to have some water, he needed some water. We all need water, don't we? - Absolutely. - I mean, it wasn't exactly, he wasn't exactly going to a drunken orgy somewhere. - No, but he also could have sent his disciples to go and fetch him water from maybe a safer place or to do that work for him. - Well, he could have, and yet he was actually asking us a Samaritan woman for it in the Jews, eight of the Samaritans. - Yes, exactly. So he put himself in a position where you could argue, why was he there? And yeah, you even expressed those things that there were other people who probably would have looked down upon or did look down upon the fact that he was there having that conversation with a Samaritan woman. And so I love that we can model the life of Jesus and be in places and have those conversations. And he was very different. I mean, we could have a whole interview of just like the differences between the Samaritan woman and Jesus that day. There's so many things that they didn't see eye to eye on, so many things that were just culturally different in the two of them, yet they both were there to get water. And Jesus uses that one thing to be a conversation starter. - Yeah, Jesus often used metaphors. He often used metaphors. In fact, to bring the woman back to, like, he says, you know, he used water to connect her to the heart of God. He used that moment, he used a cultural moment. So I think so much of translating Jesus is not necessarily having to take something that I heard in a message at church on Sunday. And I have to take that message and give to the person that I see in the grocery store today. But it's being in the grocery store today and using something in that cultural moment to point someone to Jesus. - Well, for instance, I have to make an almost daily trip to the post office. Been doing it for 30 years since we formed Save America Ministries. And have learned the names of so many of the gals that, or guys that are there on the front counter, usually there are three or four of them. And so I ask them their names. Sometimes I'll ask them what the meaning of their name is. Well, that's very meaningful to people because a name is who they are. And when I do that, it's interesting that all of a sudden I have captured their attention. I'm not treating them like some slave or some irrelevant servant there that's just here to take my mail, but as a real person. I think that's what Jesus did. - Yeah, I think that's just a beautiful and simple way that we connect to other people. Yeah, anytime that you can get someone talking about themselves, we all love talking about ourselves. So I think anytime you can get someone, yes, sharing their names, sharing the meaning of their name, sharing about their day, that's a great start. I love that. - All right, you say in your book that the language of Christ is prayer, but the language of culture is attention. First of all, what do you mean that the language of Christ is prayer? - The way we communicate to Jesus, we communicate through prayer. - Okay. - So the way we talk to him and the way he talks to us, I really love this when I think about the message of translating Jesus. It's talking to people about Jesus and talking to Jesus about people so that people start talking to Jesus. - Well, it has been said that people don't care how much we know until they know how much we care. So if we don't show a caring for people, which is what Jesus did, why should they care about what we have to say? - Yeah. Yeah, and the beautiful thing about prayer is that it just, it unlocks things for us as Christians and it also unlocks things for other people. So just even beginning our day or as we go into different situations, it's like God, who is it that you want me to care for? Who are the people that you're gonna put in my day that you want me to see to notice? The people at the post office, the people at the grocery store. - Right. - Who are those people? So it's first like that language of prayer, the language of Christ being prayer, like I'm gonna connect to God, the Father, on who he wants me to connect with today. - Well, one of the things-- - Doesn't that moment come? - Yeah, one of the things that my wife and I do, almost every day as we're spending time in the Word, in a prayer every morning, we say Lord, would you open our eyes to see the people, the way you see them, to see the people that you bring across our path today? And, you know, praying that prayer, now we are saying, Lord, we're willing to listen. So, open our eyes, help us to see and help us to respond and understand that person. And I think when we do that, it leads us to the second point that you say, the language of culture is attention. - Yeah, exactly. So it's first connecting with the heart of the Father, who already loves every person that we're gonna engage with today. And then it's being attended to the culture, being just being aware. I think it's so easy for us to look at culture. And I think we go one of two ways. We can either just stay connected to God and ignore culture, or we can get so inundated with culture that we forget to connect to the heart of the Father. - Exactly, well spoken. We'll be right back with this after this great friends, the book Translating Jesus Willy Right Back. There is so much more about Chuck Chris Meyer and Save America Ministries on our website, saveus.org. For example, under the marriage section, God has marriage on his mind. Chuck has some great resources to strengthen your marriage. First off, a fact sheet on the state of the marital union, a fact sheet on the state of ministry, marriage and morals, saveus.org. Marriage, divorce and remarriage. What does the Bible really teach about this? Find all of this at saveus.org. Also, a letter to pastors, the Hosea Project, saveus.org. And many more resources to strengthen your marriage. It's all on Chuck's website, saveus.org. Again, you can listen to Chuck's viewpoint broadcast, live and archived, saveamericaministries website at saveus.org. (upbeat music) Again, I welcome you back to Viewpoint. I want to make available the book Translating Jesus, How to Share Your Faith, in language that today's culture can understand. And it's a $19 book, yours for $18. It's on our website, saveus.org. You can call us at 1-800-SaveUSA, 1-800-SaveUSA, or write to us at saveamericaministries. Peelbox 70879, Richmond, Virginia, 2-325-5, writing a check at $5 for postage and handling. Now, one of the things, friends, that I think if you have been listening to this program long, you know that we resist the use of labels. Labels become libels, they just do. So, if you have been listening long to this program, except when I'm reading from an article, that somebody else has written, I do not use the terms left or right. I do not use the terms liberal or conservative, generally speaking, and why not? Because rather than actually pointing to some level of truth, they actually lead us away from that, and they become a barrier to us. And they become a barrier to the real issues that we're trying to talk about. So, we've got to be very careful when we embrace labels. And our guest today says there's a tower of labels, like political parties, sports teams, brands, universities, all kinds of stuff. We have to be very careful, as Christians, that those labels don't become our identity. Our identity is in Christ. So, is it culture over Christ, or is it Christ over culture? That's always the question before us. And how do we participate in, shall we say, the generic language of culture without compromising Christ? That's an interesting question. What do you say to that, Shauna? Yeah, I just, I love, and I quote Kepler a lot when he just says that we are always thanking God's thoughts after him, just for being reminded that God is always ahead of us, that he goes before us, that culture is never, culture is never ahead of God. Culture can definitely be out of step with God, but culture is never ahead of them. Like, I love, I'm not even great with science, but when there are scientific discoveries, I love just thinking God was already ahead of that before we even got there. And I think of also, like, that this also comes with this curiosity that we need to have, and I think curiosity helps us learn the language of culture right where we at. And I know it comes with dialects, and demographics, and all the things that culture is telling us something, Chuck. And I think, before we put that, what is culture telling us then? It's one thing to make the statement, it's another thing to elucidate on what it really means. What do you think culture is telling us? I think it varies. I think probably the day I have here in San Francisco might be a very different day than you're having in Richmond for days. Well, I would imagine so. Driving those streets out there, sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down, and sometimes nearly to the ground. Exactly, exactly, exactly. But I think just paying attention to culture, being very mindful. I love that John Scott talks about the double listening, so listening to the Holy Spirit and what he is saying to us at the same time, listening to what someone in my day here in my city is going to say, that we can successfully converse with someone about God's love in our present day context. Okay. And we all have to fully understand or agree to be great at listening or caring. But I think if we generally care, we're going to get people's attention and by getting people's attention that opens the door for us to express the love of Jesus and show it to them in a way that they're going to want to be receptive. Okay, so it's not just the words that we say, it's the attitudes of our heart and whether or not we're showing the love of Jesus and that we really care. Yeah, and I think just even giving ourselves some grace at times that we are, you know, we're exiles here, this is not our home, but this is our home for now and that we can live among the people and we don't have to feel like that they're stronger than us or they know more than us or that we, or we have to live separate lives from culture as Christians. But this idea that we can live among them and just talks about like, you know, the flowers growing among the weeds in the scripture, like we live among them and still be very much true to our faith and true to our call and true to our relationship with Jesus while at the same time learning culture so that we can figure out how to bring the love of Jesus into that. Okay, so we're living in the world, but not of the world, and yet when I read the translating Jesus, how to share your faith in language that today's culture can understand, it almost sounds like what you're saying is we have to adopt the words of the culture no matter how godly or ungodly they may be, but we have to adopt their way of talking in order to reach them. - Is that what you're saying? - No, but I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. So when we moved to start Epic Church 14 years ago, almost this summer, we use a phrase of like, for someone who's not quite sure what this is, we would say it's kind of like a startup. It's a, we would say, you know, in the Christian or the church world, they would say, oh, they're going to plant a church. Well, when you think about it, plant a church, if you don't understand church language, that sounds really odd. You would plant a church in San Francisco. What's best to say, the way we've translated it is that, yeah, a church plant, it's like a startup. - Uh-huh, okay, got it. - A startup language makes sense here. - Ah, okay. Well, that makes sense too. That makes sense. - Okay, so that's just a way of like, it's not a word that we necessarily use in the church, of like, oh, they're going to do a startup, but in trying to help someone who lives in this culture understand, oh, I understand that. So you're saying you guys are getting funding and you guys are looking for a place to meet and you're building a team. And yes, you're, yeah, it's a startup. - Okay, now, if Christians are told not to love the world, because of the world, the love of the world is an abomination to God. We're not to love the world, but we're to love the people that are in the world, right? - Yes, although John 3.16 says for God so loved the world. - Well, he loved people in the world that he sent forth his only begotten son, right? But the Scripture also says that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil. - Yes, which is not the world, because God created this world that we get to live and God created the people in which we get to live with. It is, yes, we are to hate evil, for sure. - Right, all right, so Christians are to shine, as you said in your book, as a light in darkness. But you say, that's too much for people to grasp. Why is that too much for people to grasp? - We are, the Bible says that we are to shine like stars. - Exactly, but why is that too much for people to grasp? - I think in the context in the book, it's just that there are some ways in which we seek a church language to a culture that doesn't understand that church language. But I think we definitely have to be careful in the ways in which we engage with our society so that it's in a way that they can understand it. - All right, so that brings me to another question. And in your book, you talk about the narrow gate and you talk about it opening up to go wide. And I have gone through your book and I've highlighted a lot of things. But I wanna ask you, since you have a congregation referred to as the Epic Church, and you're in San Francisco, what do you think is the purpose of the church gathered? From the Bible, what is the purpose of the church gathered? - Just as we read about it in scripture, why did the church get together? - Why, what is the purpose of the church coming together and gathering? - Yeah, I think just even in, and I've grown up in the church. My dad's a pastor and that's all I've ever known. And just to think about the ways I've grown up, the church communities that I've been a part of, the way that my Christian faith has been shaped by men and women of faith in the church pouring into me and just being that, yeah, that in my 40s that I'm getting to do that, what a privilege it is to do that inside fellowship and a local church. So I love the local church, I love like-- - So in other words, what you're saying is the purpose of the church gathered is to disciple the saints for the work of the ministry. - I think that's part of it. - Well, what's the rest of it? - Yeah, so I was saying that in our time in moving to San Francisco and in my 40s of being able to pour into people in the life of the church, I find that coming to church on Sundays is an opportunity for believers to get refueled, to send out-- - Right, mm-hmm. - In other words, to be prepared for the work of the ministry. - Absolutely. - Okay, so when the church comes together, they're believers that are coming together to be prepared, to be nurtured, to be discipled, to be strengthened, to walk in obedience and strengthen perseverance and so on before the Lord. So then what is the purpose of the church scattered? - Well, and I was still, I think they're still so much more to coming together as a local church because while a majority of the people that come to our church are believers and have a faith, we have so many that come on Sundays that they're curious, they're coming with a friend. Some of them have left the faith, some are coming back to the faith, some are for the first time getting exposed to the faith. So there's also the elements of that in a gathering on Sunday for why people have it. I think some people are not gathering because they have a faith, some are gathering because they're curious about this faith. - Okay, but here's what happens. Here's what happens, Shauna. When you believe that the church gathered is for evangelism, you necessarily now modify, diminish the strength of what you teach to disciple the saints that are in that congregation. That's what's happened since the church growth movement began in the 1970s in Pasadena, California. Since the Seeker Sensitive Movement began in the 1990s, the actual message of the church has been watered down. I'd like you to think about that and I'm just glad that we're going to get back really like that for this year. - Have you ever considered what the early church was like? Many people are developing a heart longing for a greater fulfillment in our practices as Christians. A recent study showed 53,000 people a week are leaving the back door of America's churches in frustration. What is going on? Why has there not been even a 1% gain among followers of Christ in the last 25 years? Could it be that God is seeking to restore first century Christianity for the 21st century? Jesus said, I'll build my church. Is Christ by His Spirit stirring to prepare the church for the 21st century? The early church prayed together and broke bread from house to house. They were family and it was said by all who observed, behold how they loved one another. Incredible. But the same can be found right now. Go to sebus.org and click sell church. We can revive first century Christianity for the 21st century. It's about people, not programs. It's about a body, not a building. That's sebus.org, click sell church. (upbeat music) - Welcome back to Viewpoint friends. We're talking about translating Jesus into a world and a culture that in many respects is no friend to grace. It just is not. Even a Jewish leader spoke to that just yesterday saying that the divide is so great in our country. Morally and spiritually that it's almost impossible to bridge that gap. The only way to bridge that gap is by the Holy Spirit. But can we bridge that gap by the Holy Spirit if we're speaking the language of the culture in the church? Can we do that? Is that appropriate? Or can we also, should we be speaking the language of the church in the culture? Or should we be speaking the language of the culture in the culture? These are challenging questions and I think it's worthy of our really seriously considering these things because the net result of what's happened is the enculturation of the culture in the church over the past 50 years. That's how I see it, Shauna. And I also have grown up in the church at Pastard from coast to coast and my father was a pastor as well. What say you? - Yeah, yeah, great conversations. I love your questions, Chuck. I think what we're seeing here and in fact, our vision at our church is to see an increasing number of people in San Francisco orient their entire lives around Jesus. So we are about evangelism, we are about discipleship. We are seeing where people, we as a church, we are founded on the scriptures. We are listening to Jesus and we are seeing the movement of the spirit take place in our church. And we're seeing people in our city showing up at our church on a Sunday. We baptized four people this past Sunday. - Wonderful. - Today I want to give my life to Christ. I want to be tethered to this church and what God is doing here. We're praying with people. We're seeing people who are coming in, getting strengthened in the local church to go and be sent out and not just sent out to reach people out there, but you can see them come inside this face of church. And so it is, we're having the time of our lives partnering with God to see people come to know Jesus, to be disciples. It's a beautiful thing to be a part of. - Absolutely. So that is what God wants us to do. He wants us to prepare the saints to do the work of the ministry as the saints gathered and to go out and be salt and light everywhere we go. Like the little song. We used to sing when we were kids, this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. So we need to do that. And in order to do that we have to really be that light. So here's what Jesus said. He said if, and he's speaking to Christians, if the light that is in you be darkness, then how great is that darkness? So to what extent then when we begin to, shall we say, assimilate the language of the culture into the body of Christ, to what extent actually are we reducing our light? - Yeah, I don't know how much of culture's language, we're bringing into the church. I just think it's more about when we're engaging with culture. How do we have an ear? How are we paying attention to what they say? - Oh, okay. - So now we're distinguishing those conversations. - I'm glad that we've reached this point because you're distinguishing between absorbing the culture into the church as opposed to as the church or Christians go out that they are learning to listen and attempt to speak in such a way that people can understand the gospel because they see our light and our hearts that are full of the love of Christ. - Yes. - Okay. So when you say evangelism is not, and you make a series of statements, it's not making converts, it's not brainwashing, it's not forcing someone to believe, and it's not telling somebody that they're gonna die if they don't believe in Jesus. So what is evangelism? - Yeah, and I think I say that from a place of, I've seen those tactics growing up and I've seen what it's done to people who just, it's not a faith that gets rooted in Christ and gets rooted in good soil and it grows up among the thorns and along the side of the highway. And evangelism is, it is sharing your faith, it is sharing your faith with people and it's building that relationship with someone so that they, so that you, I love that they got as such a gentleman and a respecter of people. That he comes to us that while we had our backs to him, he came close to us. And I love that we have opportunities with evangelism to come close to people wherever they are. You're quoting that song, this little light of mine. And I think of a song I say to say so many years, like just as I am, just as I am without one plea, that we get to come to him just as we are. And that I think that these three models in evangelism, that we come to people receiving them just as they are. And we bring these three simple truths that Jesus loves you. He wants you to love him back by giving your life to him and to send the rest of your days on earth, loving one another, by introducing people to Jesus. - It reminds me of a song that the Gaithers say the Gaither vocal band years ago. - Yes. - A very simple little song, it goes like this. ♪ Loving God, loving each other ♪ ♪ Making music with my friends ♪ ♪ Loving God, loving each other ♪ ♪ And the story never ends ♪ It's a very simple little thing, but there's a simple truth to that. Loving God, loving each other, making music with my friends. It's not the whole of the gospel, but it's saying, look, we have to have a relationship with people. You can't just completely wall people out of your life just because they're out there. - Yes, and the beautiful thing is that as we bring the good news to someone, it's good news. It transforms your life, it transforms my life. It feels, there's the power to the gospel of Jesus Christ. He changes life. And so we have a responsibility with evangelism to bring that good news to people. And the beautiful part is we journey with people and it's not like I'm throwing this on you and I'm walking away from you, but as we have the opportunity to journey with people, like whether we're inviting them to our homes, like you mentioned you and your wife, they decide to come to church. We get to journey with them and we get to watch as the Holy Spirit works in their lives to bring them to salvation. In other words, we can't manipulate people to come to Christ by just speaking their language, by just trying to conform to their world, we can't draw people to Christ, only the Father can do that, can't he? - Yes, and it's remarkable that he chooses to use us. - Exactly, and that's a privilege. It's a tremendous privilege that we have to be in the world, but not of it. And not just to be well as one book said, Jesus freaks. That's not what God has called us to be, is Jesus freaks. He's called us to be Jesus with skin on, shall we say. That's the word my wife likes to use. Jesus with skin on. In other words, as Jesus fleshed out the Father on this planet, we are likewise called to flesh out Christ in our world. Does that make sense? - Yes, it does. And I would say what your wife would say. And I would say, I mean, we're Christ followers, we follow him. And I love that the church, it is a global church. And so while God has sent me to love a people and a place in San Francisco, I have followed Jesus here. This is where he has led me. - Well, that's like a whole nother world. - Yes, the famous rich in a Virginia. (laughing) Our lives in England or Nairobi, Kenya, like God sends his people. We follow Jesus where he sends us. And then we get to see God build and grow his church in the places that he sends us. - And we trust him to do that, we can't make it happen. We try to live out our faith in practical ways in the real world in which we live and then we trust God to make the difference. So what if, as many, it's been almost kind of a model of evangelical churchy entity for the past 60 years, I call it belt notching. Where you're out there to try to make a convert. And then you get all proud because somebody prayed the sinner's prayer. And so you're not your belt. I led so many people to Christ today or I have so many members in my church today. What do you say with that attitude? - Oh, that scares me. (laughing) Yeah, that attitude scares me. I just remind people like a modern day, Pharisee or Sadducee. - Ooh, you went for it. - You went for the jugular on that one. You used a label. (laughing) And so did Jesus, by the way. - He did. He did. And yeah, I think, and I can get even emotional over this talk because I think my sweetest days on earth are the days where I get to see someone choose Jesus. And most of them are not happening in a matter of a week or a day or a month, but they're happening over dinners and baseball practices and encounters where I just watch and I pray and I see God. As I pray for them, I see God working in them and I see them surrendering and I see them choosing. Some of them, my most recent friend, he realized that he had to give up his family back in the Middle East if he was gonna choose Jesus. And I see, I see what it costs people to choose Jesus. - It's called the cost of discipleship. - It is, and I want this. I want this for believers all over the world to say, Jesus is worth so much that I will journey with someone for however long it takes for them to see that Jesus is worth following. - You know, in our book, Power of Hospitality, we have a chapter called Breaking Bread, Breaking Barriers. And Jesus actually, whenever there was a difficult circumstance even with his disciples or with others who were not believers, we find him breaking bread. And the reason is because when we eat together, there's a commonality that bridges over every possible gap, isn't there? - Yeah. - Yeah. - And you mentioned that. - Yeah. - You mentioned that in your conversation here just a moment ago. And I have a couple of questions real quick. You have four kids and they're all teenagers or in their early 20s. - Yes. - So the question is, since they are all pretty much generation Z, which are considered the most godless generation in the country by even secular observers, how are you communicating this message to them and how are they receiving it? - Jeff, this might shock you, but we're seeing so many Gen Z students following Jesus here in San Francisco. - Wonderful. - So much to the point that I'm asking Gen Z, hey, will you teach me what you're learning about sharing your faith among your peers? So I will be at the local high school right down the street on Tuesday and there will be a room full of 60 or 70 high school students. They're not all Christians yet, but they're all saying, who is Jesus and how do I get to know him? And so I'm actually leaning into what Gen Z is learning because I realize I still have a lot to grow and learn in my faith. And it's not that I have everything to give Gen Z, we need to be recognizing that Gen Z has some things to teach us as they follow Jesus. - Well, it sounds like you have a tremendous passion, Shauna. And I am sensing that in your communication and I trust that the Holy Spirit will continue to bring fruit to your labors and to your vision. Friends, the book, translating Jesus, how to share your faith in language based culture can understand $18 we'll put this $19 book in your hands. It's on our website, saveus.org. We barely scratched the surface of this book. Read the book, get a copy of it. It's on our website, saveus.org. God bless, give us. - You've been listening to Viewpoint with Chuck Grismire. Viewpoint is supported by the faithful gifts of our listeners. Let me urge you to become a partner with Chuck as a voice to the church, declaring vision for the nation. Join us again next time on Viewpoint as we confront the issues of America's heart and home. 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