WORT 89.9FM Madison

Organizing in Rural America with George Goehl

On today's show, host Ali Muldrow speaks with community organizer and activist George Goehl. Goehl has a long history with organizing and been involved with campaigns as small as paving a road to large as reforming federal financial policy. He has now shifted his focus to teach the fundamental skills and concepts of organizing and tell stories of rural Americans' organizing efforts. Goehl is the author of the "Fundamentals of Community Organizing" Booklet–a 50 page guide to teach the fundamental skills and concepts of organizing. He is also the the host of the podcast “To See Each Other” which just launched a new season. Set in Wisconsin, this season features the fight to save a county nursing home. George Goehl will be presenting at the Havens Wright Center today, Wednesday, September 25th from 4:00 PM to 5:30 PM. It’s a free Hybrid Event. And more information can be found on the center's website. Photo by Laura Seaman on Unsplash

Broadcast on:: 25 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

- Hi, I'm Ali Maldro, the host of "A Public Affair" on Wednesdays. If you'd like to tune into my show any day of the week, any hour of the day, head on over to WORTFM.org. And while you're there, make a donation to support community radio. (upbeat music) ♪ Six, four, six, I've got to see you level ♪ ♪ I grab my mic because I like to take you to another mental level ♪ ♪ No power frequency radio modulation ♪ - Good afternoon. You are listening to WORT 89.9 FM. I'm your host, Ali Maldro. Happy September 25th, y'all. I wanna start today by just thanking the people who make "A Public Affair" possible. You'd shout out to our receptionist, Mary Jo, our engineer, Jay, our producer, Jade, and our news director, Shali. We are gonna talk today. We have the honor of speaking with community organizer and activist, George Gayle. George has a long history with organizing, including campaigns to win federal financial reform. He is now training working class folks on how to organize from scratch. George is the author of the Fundamentals of Community Organizing booklet, a 50 page guide to teach the fundamental skills and concepts of organizing. George is also the host of the podcast to see each other, which just launched a new season this week. The show showcased rural Americans and their efforts to organize. The new season is set in Wisconsin and features a fight to save a county nursing home. George Gayle, welcome to "A Public Affair." How are you doing today? - I'm good, thanks for having me. - Oh, I'm so grateful to get to talk to you, especially 'cause I listened to, I think, the first episode of this season yesterday and was instantaneously in tears. I was so stunned by kind of the beauty and grace of the conversation. And so compelled by the fight of these folks to make sure that their community has this space. And I thought there was such an incredible conversation about the role of government in supporting people. Talk to me a little bit about why that's the first episode, why you decided to have that conversation with folks who are living in a retirement community? - Yeah, well, the organization I work for addition, one of the things we do is see new organizing from scratch. And we try to bring organizing to places that we think sometimes get overlooked. And one constituency might be seniors in small towns, older people in small towns. So Wisconsin still has 21 counties that own their own nursing home. And these go back 75 even as much as 150 years. They're beloved institutions. People have paid into them over the years. They have family members there. They people work there. And there's a push by conservative county boards to privatize them and sell them off even if they're financially fine. And in some cases, a lot of them are financially better because of an increase in Medicaid reimbursement rates. So in four counties in the state, there are active fights right now. As far as we know, there might be more. And you've got small town seniors flooding into county board meetings, marching in the Labor Day parade and the Logan parade the other day. They, people driving their tractors with Save the Salt County Healthcare Center. And a lot of older people like doing things they've never done before. Like speaking in public, organizing press conferences, doing protests and things like that. So it's just such beautiful organizing, such beautiful people. And I also think it's stereotyped busting in a way because I think a lot of people, we often might think of rural communities as only conservative and kind of maybe anti-government. And here you're seeing people that are both Democrats, Republicans and independents coming out and saying, no, do not sell our county home nursing home. So there's just so much tied up in it. And the last thing is it just seemed like the conversation about older people because of the two men that were running for president before Joe Biden stepped out. It's been pretty negative about older people and I actually get it and I'm glad Joe Biden stepped aside, but I feel like there was some collateral damage and older people kind of. - Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a conversation that we haven't had and need to have is how this election has promoted both ageism and ableism and made those things really acceptable as disqualifying factors in how somebody is allowed to exist publicly or allowed to show up at any given time and any given space. I was so deeply inspired by at one point, I think there's a little bit of audio in the podcast and the person introduces themselves and says, I'm not gonna be able to stand out to give this testimony. And the kinds of barriers that people have to navigate in order to participate isn't often part of the story. And so I thought you did something really unique and special in highlighting not only are these people doing this work, but they are persevering in face of really tremendous obstacles that a lot of us would have a hard time confronting as we try to speak publicly, as we try to move through an activist space. Talk to me a little bit about what it means to confront ableism and ageism in telling a story like the one you're telling about this retirement community. - Yeah, I mean, just thinking about out Curtis, who's the, I think the person you're mentioning, well, one, he is the person that noticed the fight. He lived in the nursing home. He's living in the nursing home. He heard gossip that it might be sold at 11 o'clock at night. He called some other elder, an 80-some-year-old man, and said, "I think they're gonna try to sell pine crust." He called a woman who, through her own experience with domestic violence, founded a domestic violence support network there in the community, she's in her mid-70s and in a wheelchair as well. And it is those three that sparked a fight. So people, to your earlier point, people that we might write off as maybe having done all they can do, maybe not being able to contribute are actually the only reason that that fight started. And then the work of going, like, I'm gonna get to the meeting, which means I gotta figure out how to get a ride with somebody that can get me and my wheelchair there. And I'm gonna have to, it's gonna be a job to get to this meeting. I'm not just gonna go hop in the car and drive right over. It's gonna be an actual job, and they do it anyway. And I'll just say Al Curtis, who you mentioned, who said I don't wanna live in a pay sport box, he died like a month later. Like, he, I just think, and then I, to me it is beautiful that he was fighting until his last breath. So instead of us thinking, like, oh, this is somebody that doesn't have anything to contribute. This is somebody who was actually in the fight until the very end. And I think it's, I mean, it's sad that he passed, but it's beautiful the way he lived while he was with us. - I think that there's so much complexity to that. And if you're just tuning in, you're listening to WORT. 89.9, and we're having a gorgeous conversation about the Pine Crest retirement community and home. And I guess my question to the folks who are listening is, do you think that the government should be providing, you know, care and community for elderly residents? The number is 608-256-2001. We wanna hear from you. We wanna hear what you think the role of government is when it comes to taking care of people. - George, I wanna lean into that story. I do think the complexity for me in saying, like, oh, this guy went out fighting is, was this person healthy enough to be fighting? Should this person have to fight for their home? At the end of your life, shouldn't you just be secure in your housing? Is that too much to ask? Or should you have to beg your entire community for stability and safety? - That, I mean, in some ways, I agree with you completely. It's really beautiful that this person went out standing up for themselves. And on another note, it's also really tragic that you're spending the end of your life fighting for your dignity, your safety, your stability, and your housing. George, how do you balance kind of that dynamic in this conversation? - It's a really great point. I mean, even just thinking about everybody that lives in Pinecrest. Everyone that's living in Pinecrest is living under a different stress than they should, because they think they don't know where they're gonna live, if this gets sold. And they don't know what's gonna happen to the quality of care if it gets sold. So, I mean, a couple of things happen when nursing homes are privatized, the quality of care almost always goes down because the for-profit company is gonna come to that. First thing they come in and look to where to cut costs. Staff morale goes down. So then you have staff leaving and then care goes down. And there's lots of reports around that, a retired university Wisconsin professor, Barbara Bowers, who specializes in long-term care has written a lot about that. So I think to your point, like everybody there's living under a higher level of stress. And in the same and these other counties that people are going there. So it is unfortunate, but I also think Mr. Curtis and others who've stayed involved at least. I think they are just showing like we can't write people off, but it is a shame that people have to live under this stress. And then lastly, they're concerned that like, yeah, it'll be privatized for two years, then it won't make enough profit. And then the company will shut it down. And rural communities, that might be the only nursing home there. You know, in one meeting somebody started, some older person was like, "I don't wanna go to Oshkosh." Now, he's meaning, now wasn't anything anti- Oshkosh, it was just like, "I don't wanna have to live, you know, 60 miles or two hours from where my family is." Yeah. - Yeah, I think that there are all these factors that are complicated to take into consideration in terms of what this means for folks' lives. And the kind of, you know, the uncertainty about your housing, I think strikes a very specific word for me. Because I think like, you know, knowing where you're gonna live is such a big deal. It's such an indicator of your health and happiness. And there's not just knowing that you're gonna have quality care and knowing that you get to continue to be a part of your community. There's also just having kind of the security and self-determination of, you know, this is, this was my plan. This is where I plan to be. And that's being ripped away from folks. In terms of the folks who want to get rid of these county supported retirement homes or assisted living facilities, what is the argument? Is the argument just that the county can't afford it? - Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing it up as a housing issue. I think you just framed that better than I've heard anybody do it. So I really like that and haven't always thought about it in that way, so I appreciate that. There's really kind of two things that are happening and it's different in every county. In some counties, the county boards will say, we can't afford it. And then we'll lay out and then we get into that argument and this whole season, it's to see each other. The first five episodes follow the fight for Pinecrest in Lincoln County. And then the last episode, which we don't even know how it's gonna end 'cause we're still working on it, it kind of zooms out to the larger fight. So if people listen in, they will get to know this fight and kind of amazing blow-by-blow details. So some will make a financial argument. And then some, I think, are just saying, and we hear this a lot like it's just not the role of government. Even though it has been the role of government in these counties for 70 to 150 years, they're saying it's not the role of government. In Lincoln County, there has been a push. They tried to shut down 4-H. They sold off the fairgrounds. They shut down a disability center. I mean, I think anybody in Wisconsin would know you don't, 4-H is a bit of a sacred cow in rural communities, so that, and actually hundreds of people showed up and they did not get rid of 4-H. But the line they say is if it is not mandated that we have to do it, let's not do it. And you will hear financial arguments, but you will also hear a, this is not the role of government, the private market will do it better. So there's any theology at play here for sure. - I mean, I've got to ask you, when someone says this is not the role of government and this is not mandated, I think the role of government is to represent the greater community. These are members of the community saying this is where we want our tax dollars to go. How does that factor and how does that play out? When you have these community members, these people who have spent their lives paying taxes and contributing saying, hey, at the end of the day, I do think it's the role of my community to take care of me because I've taken care of this community. This is where I spent my life. - Yeah, I think I have seen that the overwhelming support is for keeping the nursing home county owned. That like you said, people have paid into it. Even some people say, I never planned on staying there. I never planned on living there, but I'm sure like knowing it's there, if I need it. And so people, and then the mayoral photo news, which skews conservative, which is the town, Maryland is the county seat of Lincoln County, ran a poll of the readers. Would you support a hike in property taxes to keep Pinecrest County owned? I think they felt sure that poll would tank and fail, but 85% of readers said, yes, we would support having our taxes increased, which is not what they wanted. The residents pushed for a referendum, so the voters could decide if they would raise your own taxes in Green County, which is more in the southern part of the state, voters there just voted in April to keep their taxes higher, to keep their nursing home county owned. So I think the people are very much on the side of keeping it. There very few people ever show up to a meeting's pro privatization in these meetings, there'll be 80 people against selling it in one person for it, but the county boards, I think are skewed politically right now to an anti-government sentiment. I think that that's so interesting. I think that the idea that we don't actually wanna take care of each other, and that's not the role of, that seems so counter to Wisconsin, if you ask me, 'cause I've lived here my whole life, and I tell folks all the time, it doesn't really matter what you think of the state politically, if your car gets stuck anywhere in the state, in the snow, there is somebody with a truck who will not ask you anything about yourself, but will help you pull it out. Like I think of Wisconsin as kind of a place where people are happy to help each other out. When you see somebody down, you kind of extend your hand and you pick them up and I really love that about who we are. And so what I think the story you're telling feels like a very sincere story of what Wisconsin really is. And I think beyond kind of the politics, whether people identify as Democrat or Republican or independent or anything else, I think people in general wanna make sure like their grandma has somewhere to go, their elders and their community are treated with dignity and respect and can have housing and have care without kind of living in fear or constant insecurity around it. I wanna get into this conversation of the role of your podcast. I really love the name to see each other. And I think right from the kind of beginning of the show you name that we have kind of gotten into this habit of writing each other off of us versus them, of like not necessarily striving to see one another with nuance and care about what one another have to say and one another's experiences and perspectives and the image that we project onto folks in rural communities and onto elderly folks. Are you hoping to give people a clearer perspective of one another in the work you do on your podcast? - Yeah, definitely. I mean, I guess I think almost anything really bad that happens to a group of people, you know? And I know this country, so I'll just say this country has happened from a failure to see each other. And to see each other's humanity and some kind of dehumanizing of people that then allows us to do horrible things. You know, whether that's some of the original sins in the country, the genocide of Native Americans, slavery of black people in the country, on through the way women men come to all come from a failure to see people in a very intentional effort by design. And so, you know, I think in organizing, that's kind of what we're constantly doing in anywhere, rural, urban, multiracial, suburban, whatever, we're trying to help people see each other and come together and tell a different story about people. And I'll just say my life has kind of always been looking for what's the intervention that might be most needed now that I could play a role in. And that's been different over the years, but in most of my organizing has been in urban communities for much of my life. But I grew up in a rural community. And so in 2016, when Trump ascended and suddenly everybody's obsessed with, who are these rural white people with red hats and just kind of often, the Wall Street Journal had this horrible headline, rural, the new inner city. Right, there's so much, I mean, we could talk for an hour about what's wrong with that, you know. - It's so complicated. - Yes, exactly. - There's so much there. - I do, I wanna lean into kind of the reframing of the rural community. Again, as somebody who grew up in Wisconsin, I think when I was younger, I thought of kind of the rural communities of Wisconsin as like hardworking, earnest, kind of farm, family folk. I think Trump really did shift the way people trust each other and the way people treat each other and the way people see each other. But I think that part of what happened is there was this tremendous lack of nuance, this lack of willingness to recognize people's intelligence that further alienated people from one another. Trump was born rich. He is from Manhattan, very urban area. Or Queens, I'm sorry, I wanna be specific about the borough. He is from Queens, New York. And you would think that he wouldn't have much in common with somebody from Lancaster or with somebody from La Crosse or he wouldn't have a real easy kind of connection with the rural communities of Wisconsin, the working people of any part of this country. How is it that Trump has been able to galvanize rural voters? - I feel like I'm still looking for that answer. You know what I mean? Truly, and I don't feel like I know for sure. You know what I mean? But I do think, I guess I would say one, I do think Democrats disinvested in rural communities for a number of years. President Obama in 2008, 143% of the rural vote nationwide was actually quite good. And Hillary Clinton won around in the low 30s. A major drop off, I think we know. She's apologized for not coming to this state in 2016. And I mean, boy, Kamala Harris has been here at least a dozen times, I think. So I think there was- - She's been here, she lived here as a child. She is not forgetting about Wisconsin. - Oh, no, exactly. - But Trump has spent a really good amount of time in Wisconsin. He's invested a lot in Wisconsin in this campaign cycle and in other campaign cycles. Is it easier for folks who are older and are white to identify with somebody like Donald Trump? - I think, I don't know if they identify with, I think he set a lot of things that people had wanted said. And I do think he got a bump just by being Donald Trump in the apprentice and all of that. I think he spoke to this anti-immigrant sentiment very well. He talked pretty well on trade. He, I think he poked and stirred some anti. We go back and watch the debates with Secretary Clinton anti-China sentiment there. And I think, you know, I like the town. One of the towns I grew up in Indiana is like a shell of what it used to be. And so like a frame like Make America Great Again could sound pretty good. Whether the racial implications of that or what resonates with you are the fact that just, you know, every plant in the town is shut down. And it's just, you know, it's basically a ghost town. So I think all of those things worked. I don't think he would have won if there would have been a different candidate. I think also Secretary Clinton, I, you know, I remember driving my truck around Indiana party years ago and right wing radio, like spent more time going after her than Bill Clinton. Like she was just a, you know, they just go after her nonstop. So I just think that and Fox News seeped into people. So I think she was also just a kind of the perfect candidate for him, but I mean, I, I think like that's such a, that is also something I really struggle with is why it's so much easier to attack somebody like Hillary Clinton than somebody like Donald Trump, right? Like, why are we so excited to hold against Hillary Clinton, the potential that her emails were like, I don't, I can't, I like honestly can't remember y'all. If you do feel free to call the show, the number six zero eight, two five six, two zero zero one. We also want to hear from you. What do you think the role of government should be? Do you think counties should own retirement homes? What questions do you have about the show? What, what questions do you have for, for George Gayle who is an organizer? What do you want to know about organizing? I, I do think, you know, Donald Trump is somebody who's been accused of sexual assault over a dozen times. And it seems that he can kind of exist in this really precarious political place where there is nothing he says or does that is so horrific that his core supporters are turned off by that. And I think that there's, there's something that needs to be dissected around that. And I think seeing each other with clarity is a really important part of this. I, there's a part of me that even as I was listening to the show was thinking, oh, it's interesting to hear about older white rural communities being unfairly stereotyped because I think of part of what created certain rural communities in terms of the black back to the land movement was really an inversion to the diversity of larger cities. And so to have a community that has often been, been stereotyped as safe and as wholesome and as superior to, to, you know, communities of color in in major metropolitan areas to say, hey, we really need to make sure this group of people isn't getting unfairly characterized. For me, as somebody who identifies as black, there's a little irony to that. There's a little bit of a, of a, of a twinge of like, why, why do we need to do that for them? Isn't this a community that's been defined by stereotyping other people as a threat? Have it, I mean, part of what I think the generalization and relationship and even when you spoke to how Trump has been able to capture the, the rural audience and the way that he has, there's an element of racism. There's an element of, of anti-immigration and hatred. Talk, talk to me about like how we can recognize that for what it is and see a bigger picture or more nuanced picture simultaneously. - Yeah. Well, I think we have to just keep saying, like we both have now, just saying what it is. When we, you know, see something, say something, call it out, we have to just consistently do that. And I think the intervention, we were trying to make them to see each other where there were multiple, but I think it's the notion of rural as one thing. And so, and then we could go through all of the things, but let's say, but even rural majority white counties is one thing. And what I think we, I see that we forget about is in every county in this country, there's a set of people that stand up and fight for the justices. But those stories often don't get told. And so like, a lot of times when I'm doing media interviews, all the interviewer wants to talk about is the Trump voter. And I'm like, let's talk about the non-Trump voters 'cause they're there and they're fighting. So in 2018, when the Trump manufactured crisis at the border and they were separating children from their parents in 2018, in June of that year, there were 750 events across the country. I was at the one at the White House. There were 50,000 people at that, there were 750 events across the country. Half of those took place in counties that went for Trump and that were rural. And 130 of them went to place in counties that went 60% for Trump. But we never heard that story. So actually the biggest resistance to the Trump administration from rural was on immigration. - Wow. - But we, yeah. And then I'll be honest, the only reason we know that is 'cause I created a spreadsheet and listed up. Like, nobody reported on it, but I was looking at the map and I'm like, wait. - You gotta love those friends who are just gonna make their independent spreadsheet to tell you what's going on in an accurate way. Like, I'm just gonna figure this out. I think that that's something that really kind of changes a presumption. A presumption I've held for a very long time. So I really appreciate you being like, actually we can look at the data and say, yo, even people who supported Trump were like, I don't wanna see a kid ripped out of their parents' arms because they're on the wrong side of the border, right? I do think there's this space in your podcast that really, to see each other really make space to find that common ground, that common, that space of softness and humanity that we all have the capacity for. And that I think we intentionally ignore in one another sometimes. And I think there's such a nice, it's such a nice breath of fresh air, honestly, to listen to you tell these stories with people and to reconsider your own thinking, examine your own way of thinking about people who are different than yourself. If you're just tuning in, you're listening to WORT 89.9 FM Madison. My name is Ali Maldro. And today, we're talking with George Gail about organizing and rural America. I wanna plug an event that's happening this evening. So, George Gail will be presenting at Haven's Right Center today from 4 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. It's a free hybrid event. More information can be found at havenrightcenter.wisc.edu. Tell us a little bit about kind of what it looks like to organize in rural communities. I have Canvas in rural communities. And it's just like a different workout. Like it's a different hall. People's houses are further from each other. There's fewer people. You know, when you grow up on the east side of Madison, like organizing is, you know, like marching is how we work out around here. It's like, so it's a very common practice and it's easy to kind of build up a crowd. I would imagine getting momentum on any given issue requires a different level of skill and familiarity. Talk to me a little bit about what some of the differences are when you're trying to organize rural communities, particularly rural communities that are elderly and navigating disability in real kind of health challenges. - Yeah, yeah. One thing that's the same is, and this is just a model I come out of is a model of listen first. So if I was organizing and, you know, like a lot of my organizing happened in Chicago, you know, I'd go knock on 200, 300 doors and ask people what's the thing they most want to change in the community, and we would figure out how to organize and the thing that came back the most, as long as it wasn't, you know, against our values in some way, but we would do that. So I think starting with listening, and then we call that in the fundamentals of organizing pamphlet, like finding the most widely and deeply felt issue. And then we figure out how to cut that issue into something more manageable. So if everybody says poverty, well, that's gonna be, we have to figure out, you know, how are we gonna get down on something on poverty or even housing? Just to figure out what's the specific thing, or, and so in Wisconsin, you know, one of our organizers who grew up here in this town, I'm in Madison today too. And he said nine out of 10 people that he talked to said aging in a rural place was the top concern for them. And so that included care, that included transportation, that included in not being able to find in home care workers, that included the closure of nursing homes. So some of those-- - I just wanna ask really quickly, because I know this is another kind of phenomena happening in our more sparsely populated parts of the state, is like hospital closure, access to quality care and medicine. That might be, you know, okay, for any given point in your life, but as you age could be a really challenging dynamic and a life-threatening dynamic to staying in your immediate community. - Totally, I mean, you're exactly right. Like, I can't say any better than that. And so I mean, I think what's different is, like you said, the pace, you don't knock on 20 doors. And in 10 or 15 minutes, you got to drive to places. I think organizing elderly people, we need to have meetings earlier. Sometimes some people can't drive, don't feel like comfortable driving at night, we've got to arrange transportation. We need, you know, we want accessible places because a number of people are showing up in wheelchairs or with walkers and what like that. And then the technology, you know, people are, you know, some people got good at Zoom during the pandemic, but people are not, you know, hanging out, maybe on Facebook. So I think there are some changes, but in many ways, I will say the principles and the fundamentals all apply. You just might apply them a little differently. But I think listening, finding something an issue. And I think we're a big believer where I work and that we want to give people an experience of winning pretty soon because we say we're out to defeat defeatism. And so we try to figure out how to have some wins and give people some victories early on. - I love the idea of like giving people a chance to be effective, politically effective. I think that that is a life-changing experience. And I also think like there is, you got to stick with it, right? Nothing happens overnight. I think a little bit, do you feel kind of like, you have like an Aaron Brockovich vibe that you're out there connecting the dots for people? Because I do think that one of the things that happens in rural communities is that you might not know your entire community as well. You might be spread out a little bit differently. You might not be as aware that what is impacting your grandfather is also impacting so and so is great down the street. Do you feel like part of your role is kind of connecting the dots and letting people know, hey, you have this in common. You are all telling this story. This is something that's impacting the greater community. You don't have to be alone and ashamed. I do think that there is an element of closing a retirement home that has a financial implication. And I do think sometimes people retreat when they think, oh my gosh, I should be ashamed that I can't take care of myself or I can't take care of my relative. And am I really entitled to this service? Do you feel like you help folks to combat that dynamic? - Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I think in all organizing, we do that. Just one place I really saw it a lot was during predatory lending. The predatory lending that led to the subprime crisis, which definitely initially targeted black communities. And in this door knocking model that I'm from, people wouldn't tell us. You'd ask what's the thing you most wanna change about the community. Nobody's gonna offer up. I got ripped off on a bad loan because of the shame. - Yeah. - But it is actually the issue. So we have to figure out how once, so we might maybe go to the church and the pastor would then say, hey, this is happening to people in the community. If anybody has had this has happened too, an organizer is gonna be down the hall later today. And so that maybe the pastor got somebody to get up and tell their story and be like, this isn't your fault. This is a scam that targeted us. So we're always trying to figure out how to help people go like, no, this isn't, you didn't do something wrong. So maybe it's something wrong to you. You didn't do anything wrong that you need care. So that's like a key thing we do in all organizing. - I wish I could remember where I saw this written, but I saw this written about the Great Depression, that the difference between Americans and Europeans during the Great Depression was that Americans, because we have a highly individualistic culture, said, I failed, I failed. I can't put food on the table. I can't provide for my family. And Europeans said, our government failed, our system failed, we need to fix that. I do think part of organizing is replacing me with we, right? We're in trouble, we need help, because it's such a vulnerable thing to struggle. And we don't always have the kinds of communities that make it feel appropriate to name, hey, I'm really worried about this, or hey, this is what's happening for me, or hey, I feel really dumb right now. I think I fell for this scam. It's so much easier when 12 other people say, oh, that scam also targeted me. I do wonder about kind of the blame component of organizing, right? I think oftentimes, I think one of the most effective ways to organize is to have a common enemy, is to say, we are against this. We are mad about this. We are, you know, we're going to address this. And I think that's actually been one of the more successful elements of the Trump campaign, is he has united people with these common enemies, with these people who are coming for your jobs, with these people who are invading your country, with these people who are criminals and dangerous. And that's where you get to put your focus. I imagine you don't organize from necessarily that space. You're not necessarily saying, hey, the best way to resolve this problem is to hate your county board, and attack their character, and belittle them as leaders and representatives. And at the same time, I do wonder how that plays into this dynamic. - I think, I mean, look, I think there is a culprit in any story where it's in any fact where people are getting discriminated against, or getting taken to the cleaners, or getting ripped off, or not getting there for sure. I think there is a culprit. And we have a responsibility to figure out who it is, and to name it. We don't have to be hateful all the time about it or anything, but I think a failure to name it does leave the vacuum that allows a Donald Trump. So I prefer, for lack of a better term, I kind of punch up progressive populism versus Trump's punch down. When we did those, we did about 10,000 listening conversations in 2017 and 18 rural communities. And we asked people, what issues keep you up at night? What do you see as the solution? And the third question is like, who and what do you see as responsible for the changing conditions? And in most communities, the conditions were not getting better. They were getting worse. 53% of people said people depended on government programs. 43% said immigrants. But 81% said a government controlled by corporate lobbyists and rich people. And two-thirds said Wall Street. So there was actually more of a punch up, for lack of a better term, sentiment there. But the question is, is who are the leaders that are willing to say that? And I think at times, I think there's a history with the Democratic Party, leadership of the Democratic Party, Democratic establishment has been so close to those donors, to Wall Street and to other things not able to articulate that. And therefore, you leave a big meaning-making vacuum for somebody like Trump to step in. - Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the areas where it is helpful to me to go back to 2016 in that election, because I think if folks remember the primary in Wisconsin was not won by Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. The primary was won by Bernie Sanders. And oh, goodness, was it Rubio? Was it Marco Rubio won for the Republican? - I don't, yeah, I can't remember. - All right, I'm gonna ask Jade to look that up and just keep me, keep me honest here today. She probably remembers. I mean, she just like knows everything. Jade, we love you so much. Thank goodness. But you know, Wisconsin wasn't excited about either of those candidates. And I do think there was that critique of kind of candidates who are more owned by lobbyists and corporates and have kind of this access to wealth that separates. It was Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz won in Wisconsin, ooosh, ouch. But yeah, but the point is, is neither Bernie Sanders or Hillary Choice were the first choice of this state, that there was this kind of reluctance related to that election. And I don't know if the state felt well represented by the candidates who ultimately won the nomination. I wonder if you think Wisconsin has shifted to having kind of less in common, like in some ways, I think there's a sweet spot of both Democrats and Republicans kind of going for the underdog in those campaigns as a state. Do you think that we are further apart than we used to be, that we are more polarized and more far from each other than we were eight years ago? - I definitely think we're further from each other than we were 16 years ago. But I do think there's a correction starting to happen. I think there's a set of people that are like this. And I would say both on the left and right, that this kind of writing each other off or jumping to conclusions. I think there's a group of people. I don't think it's a huge group that are going, I think we've kind of gone a little too far in not being able to relate to each other and understand each other. And I think in Wisconsin, I think you're gonna see and not the elections are the best way to measure it, but I do think you're gonna see an increase in the rural vote voting Democrat this year in Wisconsin. I don't think it'll be massive, but I think it'll be noticeable. And I think Kamala will certainly be Hillary Clinton's number. So I think there's something happening. And then I think like what I'm trying to help do is create a field that can hold that complexity. So in some of these counties in Wisconsin on the nursing home fights, I mean, they're a number of Republicans showing up to meetings and saying, I did not vote for this. Like my mom is in that nursing home. I've paid into it. She paid into it her whole life. Like I am not for this and they show up how you hold that group together during an election. And so some of the, in the first season to see each other, we get into some more organizing that actually brings more multiracial organizing where we have stories and where in many ways through the organizing and through the campaigning and through winning, as we were talking about earlier, enough trust was built that we could be like, how come we weren't in a room together before? And we could start, and we were able to start talking about how racism creates different outcomes for different people and racial division and the way we thought of each other was why we were not in the room together. And sometimes those blew up and went horribly just to be totally honest. But often they were cathartic and they were game-changing for people. And so I think we just have to figure out how to create more of those kinds of experiences for people and then holding that together is not easy. It's not easy. It can fracture quickly. - It's not easy, but it is good, right? Like it is good. And I do think like one of the saddest things about kind of a political reality is the impact it's had on our interpersonal relationships and our relationships with our families and our ability to see each other. And it's hard for me, again, as a person who identifies as black and has lived in Wisconsin my whole life to go, yeah, there was a time where we were all on the same page in this country. I'm like, eh, I don't know if there's been like this glorious point in time where we were all better at connecting with one another. And I think about this quote from James Baldman, which is love has never been a popular movement, that the world has really been held together by the love and passion of a very small group of people. I wonder in terms of your role, do you see yourself as one of those people, as one of those few people who's trying to make love a popular movement? - I've never thought about it like that, but I think like I wanna make suspending judgment about the other muscle that we all have. And so I would say suspending judgment, curiosity about each other and in every direction. I want somebody to be, that maybe is like, ma'am, I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around transgender issues. I want that person to be like, remain curious instead of just jump to a conclusion and say I'm here. I want somebody to be able to suspend judgment and be curious, maybe I need to think about immigration differently. - And I think-- - Do you think it's easier for you to do that because you're not necessarily personally impacted by the issue of immigration or the issue of abortion? I mean, I think so often we think of objectivity as people who can have the privilege to remove themselves and not be impacted from an issue. And so if somebody says something really transaphobic, you get to listen first and know that that person isn't necessarily committed to harming you or restricting your rights or forcing you to prove your gender, how does that factor in? - Oh, big time. And that, I mean, one, I'm not gonna be as triggered. You know what I mean? I might be triggered 'cause it gets my values, but it's not about me. It's not about my identity. So I would say there. And then in some cases, I might be a better messenger. I might be a person, not, it's a great black elder once said to me, like, I needed to go on Fox News more. And- - Somebody wants to keep Buttigieg you? - Yeah, I wish, yeah, no, yeah, exactly. No, I don't know, very few can do it as well as he does, but she said to talk about racism. And she's like, I know way more about racism than you do. Like, let's, you know, which was not something we were gonna debate, but some people are gonna listen to you that aren't gonna listen to me. And she was saying, which was actually a good agitation. She was like, you gotta be both of them. That said, when we, I've done a lot of deep canvassing, and a lot of it has been, I've done deep canvassing on immigration issues, on policing and on transgender issues. And especially on the immigration deep canvass, I noticed this, so a lot of the canvassers were immigrants or children of immigrants. They were actually more effective. They were taking a different risk, and they were having to face the possibility of their identity, you know, was gonna get, you know, bad things were gonna be said on the thing, but they actually had a higher effectiveness rate than the, you know, the non-immigrant canvassers. So I think it's, but it's not for everybody. Like, I always say, like, not everybody wants to do that. Deep canvassing is really hard to begin with, but I would say we can all do it. - Have you had moments in doing this work where somebody kind of hits your limit, where you go, that's too hateful, that's too racist, that's too sexist, that's too dangerous. I'm drawing a line, I don't wanna listen to that. I don't wanna be in community with you. - Oh yeah, yeah, all the time. - What is that like for you, what does that mean? - Somebody's just, I mean, what deep canvassing does is gives, what's so amazing about deep canvassing, which, you know, we wish, which I'll talk about today at the talk here, but is, it creates a space for somebody to kind of interrogate and re-examine an issue that, in many cases, they actually haven't deeply thought about. They're part of a tribe that thinks that way. And they, sometimes they've even wondered about that way, but they wanna stay in the tribe, so they just double down on that thought, now are all our algorithms reinforced that stuff. So it's been really interesting to me that somebody, like I've had people change their views on immigration on the spot significantly, from a 15-minute conversation on the front porch, and we hooked up with people from UC Berkeley and Yale and they measured it and found this to be true. - No, I do think that that's one of the things we don't realize is I think often we think of ourselves as kind of fixed or stuck, and we forget how receptive we are to new information, how receptive we are to the power of suggestion, how receptive we are to connecting with another person. So the effectiveness of canvassing, I have to say, I completely agree with you as somebody who's canvassed, it will like renew your faith in humanity. Whether you change somebody's mind or not, whether you get somebody to show up in the way you want or not, people, when you're face to face with somebody, when you're not kind of interacting with somebody who thinks differently than you on Facebook, there's so much room to like be people and to be in community with someone. I've canvassed with people who are absolutely not going canvassed or knocked doors of people who are absolutely not gonna go the way that I'm going, but have still offered to let me warm up in their house or given me dry socks or introduce me to their children. You know, I do, I highly recommend canvassing, get out there and do some doors, y'all, you'll be amazed at how beautiful people can be, whether they agree with you or not. But back to my question, when people kind of crossed that line of what your values mean, I do, I think that there's a lot of conversation right now about whether or not we can dispose of people who disagree with us, how hard you should be trying, how what your boundaries should be, what you should accommodate and listen to, what does it mean when we go, I can't be in relationship with this person? And is that an option? And is that a productive option? - I think it's, I definitely think it's an option. Indeed canvassing, we don't draw a line because we're trying to persuade somebody, and we're not, it just wouldn't work, but we don't, people have the right to walk away, we are, if canvassing, I'm not doing a lot of canvassing right now, but I would say, we'd be less likely, but if it's like, you're gonna be part of the group, where we're starting a community group in La Crosse or wherever, each group's gotta set their own line, so there might be somebody who says something that more just speaks to not having been through much waking in the last eight years, but it's not intentionally hateful, but it's definitely clumsy and wouldn't be accepted in a lot of progressive spaces today. You might create an organization like, we have some space for that, but we actually always address it. But we don't address it in a way that like, make somebody feel real bad, and then we've lost another person that we might be able to be in a relationship with. So I think every group has to has lines, and we need to make spaces that people feel comfortable about. And I think that is one of the things, is like there's a brand of, let's just say, white people organizing, that, and I think some people have said we need to go back to this, that is not race conscious, that it actually has no intention of moving people through a waking process. Like, I think that's a bad move. I think that is going back, and we tried that. We had unions that did that forever. Like, I think we actually have to have a plan, we have to create space for the still waking, but we actually have to have a path to get there. - George Gell, I cannot thank you enough for joining me today on a public affair on WORT 89.9 FM. I'm your host, Ali Maldro. This is a public affair, before we let you go, tell us like a little bit about today's event. So today, where are you gonna be? What are you gonna be talking about? How can people join you? - Sure, I'm at the Haven Right Center. If I have a right social justice center, it's at 4 p.m. And basically gonna kinda tell the story, we had on some of it here, of a set of people since that election in 2016, who have fought to build the case for organizing in this country and engaging role voters. And I would say very clearly, the multiracial world voters, 'cause we just, so we're gonna get into the fact that 100 majority black counties in this country, they're almost all in the south in their world. Latinos are the fastest growing part of rural America, half of Native Americans live in rural communities, but we're gonna go through the journey of the last eight years and tell people where we're at today, compared to where we were on that election night in 2016. - You know, I mean, if you ask me in the words of Beyonce, this is an opportunity to get in formation. This is an opportunity to learn more about organizing. George Gill, I cannot thank you enough for your beautiful podcast and for the conversation we were able to have today. Good luck in your organizing. I can't wait to listen to the next episode. Thank you for listening to WRT 89.9 FM. I'm your host, Ali Maldro. I'll see y'all next week. (upbeat music) ♪ Become a never pre-recorded woman ♪