WORT 89.9FM Madison

Sandhill Cranes: Population Boom and Agricultural Impact

In early August, the 2024 Legislative Council Study Committee on Sandhill Cranes, met for the first time. The committee is tasked with recommending legislation to manage the sandhill crane population. They have heard reports on the crane population, reviewed damage claims, and explored mitigation options. The options include treating seeds to prevent cranes from eating them, paying farmers for lost crops, and allowing a crane hunt. The Cap Times reports that the yearly damage caused by sandhill cranes is estimated at $1.6 million. On today's show, host Douglas Haynes brings the conversation to the airways with guests David Drake and Rich Beilfuss. Drake is an UW-Extension Wildlife Specialist and Professor in the Department of Forest and Wildlife Ecology at UW-Madison. Beilfuss is the president and CEO International Crane Foundation. They join us to discuss the sandhill crane population growth and their impact. We hear from several listeners throughout the hour. Image by Marlin Greene from Pixabay

Broadcast on:: 23 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

Hi, I'm Douglas Haynes, your Monday host of A Public Affair. We love creating this public space for in-depth conversations about education, ecology, food, and so much more. To keep these conversations going, we need your support. Go to W-O-R-T-F-M dot O-R-G slash donate. Thank you. Welcome to A Public Affair, I'm Douglas Haynes, your Monday host. That's the sound of Sand Hill cranes that's common to hear in Wisconsin skies. In fact, I heard some flying over my rooftop this morning, but nearly a century ago, only an estimated 15 breeding pairs of Sand Hill survived here, and Wisconsin conservationists such as Aldo Leopold feared the birds would go extinct here. But Sand Hill cranes have made a striking comeback over the past 50 years, and it's now easy to see and hear them along Madison's streets as well as all over the state's farms and marshes. Though cranes bring joy to many, the increasing crane population has also meant hardships for some farmers who point toward cranes feeding on crops like corn and soybeans. This has led many to call for increased management and even hunting of the migratory birds. A new Wisconsin Legislative Study Committee is now reviewing and recommending options for Sand Hill crane management, and we'll have a conversation about those options today here to tell us more about Sand Hill cranes in Wisconsin and public discussions on crane management. We have two guests today. Dr. Rich Belfuss is president and CEO of the International Crane Foundation in Baraboo, Wisconsin. Welcome to A Public Affair, Rich. Thanks. Great to be here. Yeah. And we also have with us back in the studio Dr. David Drake, professor of wildlife ecology and Extension Wildlife Specialist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Welcome back, David. Thank you. And welcome to all of you listening today. If you have a question or observation about Sand Hill cranes and their management and opinion you'd like to voice about the management of Sand Hill cranes, please give us a call at 608-256-2001-Extension-9. So we got the cranes voice in there at the top of the show for a moment. So we're going to start with your voice next and what you can tell us about the status of Sand Hill crane populations in Wisconsin today and some of the factors contributing to their population growth. You bet. Well, you know, all of us who work in wildlife conservation are used to a lot of doom and gloom stories because we're dealing with a lot of challenges. But the Sand Hill crane story is a great one, you know, and it's always good to pause and celebrate their remarkable recovery. We work a lot with whooping cranes also at the crane foundation, which is, I think, the rarest bird in North America and the struggle to bring them back. And Sand Hill's have just been a great story here in the Midwest and across the country. You know, the numbers are good, the trends are good in most places, and the challenges we have today are challenges of abundance of having a lot of these beautiful but very big birds, very conspicuous birds out on the landscape now and even in urban areas, as you said. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more, Rich, about the story of Sand Hill crane conservation and what exactly has led to their recovery? Sure. Yeah. The number one factor that two things really combine to cause their original demise, I guess, we don't know, you know, way historically exactly how many they were. But if they were, you know, somewhat as numerous today or more numerous, two big things affected them. One was the market hunting era in the 1800s when we lost our, you know, our most of our prairie chickens, the passenger pigeon, famously went extinct in that period in the great ark and other other birds so that that period of really intensive, you know, true market hunting, you know, birds shipping the restaurants in Chicago and that sort of thing. That took the population way, way down. And then it was just loss of habitat. There was the conversion of our original prairie to farmland and the loss of, you know, about half of the, half of the state's wetlands during that period. So that combination, loss of habitat, and usually those things work together when birds lose habitat or any animals lose habitat, they're easier to shoot also and, you know, that combination was a big part of the story. So they, probably the migratory bird treaty act was the first real turning point that really ended that big period of market hunting across the country and allowed them to start to recover. And then I think the amazing work of habitat conservation on farms and with farmers and wetland conservation across the state was the other big factor. And I think, and, and tribute to the cranes, their adaptiveness because they, they looked out, they didn't see any more prairie, but they saw corn and they said, well, that looks pretty tasty and for good or for bad, they, they, they switched to corn, you know, waste corn mostly and, and other worms and other things they could eat out on, on farmland because that's, that's the habitat they had left across most of their range in Wisconsin. Yeah. Thank you, Rich and David, we'll bring you in here to talk a little bit more about the ways that cranes have adapted to human populations and even living in, in urban centers like Madison and Milwaukee. What, what ways have they adapted to coexist in, in urban places in particular? Yeah. This is a, a, as Rich says, an issue of abundance, which is a good thing to have for sure. But it's also balanced in societal needs between what is a tolerable number of cranes? What's that population look like relative to balancing agricultural damage? But now, as you mentioned, they're becoming an urban adaptive species and they are in these urban areas simply because these urban areas are kind of a microcosm of their habitat that they might find in non urban areas. So you have agricultural fields, maybe inside urban municipality boundaries, depending on the municipality or on the edge of you've got restored grasslands and especially city parks and the Arboretum, for example, here in Madison. And then you've got a lot of wetlands in the city and especially in this, in the urban areas, those wetlands are open year round because you have fountains or moving water in there as well. So it's got good habitat provided throughout the entire year. And then there's a tremendous amount of food available for them. So they are omnivore animals, they eat both plant material and animal material. And there's just an abundance of food in these urban areas as well. So there's a lot to attract them to urban areas and, you know, I bike into work and I see them along the train tracks over by the VA hospital on the UW Mass and campus, for example, or, you know, they're also get reports a lot of times of them in people's yards because there's a lot of grubs and invertebrates in people's soil that they're probing for. But then they start to pack at people's screen doors or at their windows and they also start packing at their reflection when they see it in the window or on a shiny car and the door of a shiny car. So I think people really enjoy seeing them. And I think people are shocked when they see them in urban areas because they haven't been that recent of an urban colonizer or an urban inhabitant. But then I think people are also thrilled to see them there. But there are some issues that need to be managed also to make sure that we maintain this positive coexistence between sandhill cranes and people. Yeah, you mentioned that those wetlands in some cases, the waters open over the course of the winter are in some cases, sandhill cranes not migrating or migrating shorter distances that you both know of. Go ahead, David. Yeah, I'll say they're not like a resident candy goose where they're necessarily large populations that are in these urban areas year round and have they've stopped migrating. So sandhill cranes typically migrate, but they might be here for longer periods of time. So you know, they're an early spring arrival and they're a late lever. They leave late into November, December, sometimes. So they're gone from our state, a relatively limited number of days or months. But I think that there's more opportunity for them to be in these urban areas, a longer periods of time or for a longer duration of the year simply because that habitat is open and accessible to them. Yeah. Rich, do you want to add anything to that? In terms of what you know about sandhill cranes migration habits? Yeah, that's right on what David was sharing and they are increasingly year over year kind of short stopping their migration. They're only going, a lot of people worry about how birds deal with winter and all and we know it's not actually the cold, that's the problem, but it's the idea of snow covering their food. So a lot of them are sort of short stopping because if they can go to central Illinois and Indiana and find food and it's not covered in snow, they're pretty happy to not do the longer migration. So we're seeing that more and more and a lot of us who are birders around Madison were out noting sandhill cranes on January 1st last year because there were quite a few sandhills around on January 1st. I think it's the first time, at least without really searching, I've had a January sandhill record. So in a mild winter, like we know last year, super mild winter, they will stick around and I think the period they were gone last year was one of the shortest we've ever observed. It was a little over a month, I think, that they were gone at least for some numbers. So yeah, it can be an increasingly short winter down south. Yeah. We'll stay with you for a minute, Rich, and before we get into management issues in particular, I think it's important to talk about appreciation as well. What is it that you in particular appreciate about these birds and maybe tell us a little bit more about their roles in our ecosystems as well? Sure. Can talk about both. Well, part of the reason the International Crane Foundation exists, in part, is to save cranes because the majority of the cranes of the world are endangered. So we do work a lot, especially on the whooping cranes here in the US and overseas in Asia and Africa. We work a lot on cranes that are truly endangered. But there are also an amazing bird to work through for conservation because they're revered worldwide. They're so deep in cultural identity around the world in Hinduism and Buddhism and religions in Asia and cultural practices in Africa. So it's a wonderful species to work with because of its connection, I think, to people. And it's hard to say exactly what it is. They're known for being symbols of good, long life. They're long-lived birds of fidelity because they stay conspicuously in pairs. They have what's called a unison call. They're a two-part call together, which is something pretty unique in nature, not many species have anything like that. And they're big, and even the most beginning nature enthusiasts can go out and see them. They're not the little LBJs that some of us chase down in the high leaves of the forest. They're very easy to eat. They're around jobs. We identify with them kind of in the way we tend to do more with mammals. People tend to connect more with wildlife when they're talking about mammals mostly. And so from the bird world, they're pretty far up there in terms of that sense of human connection. And they're a top for birds, they're sort of an upper food chain bird. They're omnivorous and amazingly adaptable. So again, for starters, they had to adapt from a largely prairie diet historically that they evolved with to very much an agricultural diet. But they're very flexible on what they eat when they're in our urban areas, as David was talking about. They're eating a lot of earthworms, which themselves are mostly exotic too. So they're really adaptable to the environment and that role. And they can be a little nasty. Sometimes when they're out in a wetland, they will chase away other ducks and geese and kind of claim their own territory swans are kind of famous for that too. So they do like their room to strut about and all. But they are certainly increasingly part of these wetland landscapes all over the state. Thank you, Rich. I just want to remind listeners, you're listening to a public affair on WRT89.9 FM. We're talking about Santal Crane's and Crane Management in Wisconsin with Rich Bialbelfus from the International Crane Foundation and David Drake of UW Extension. If you have a question, give us a call at 608-256-2001-Extension-9. And we already have a caller on the line, David, who's going to lead us right into those current discussions about crane management. David has a question about the damage cost. Welcome to a public affair, David. Yes, Captain, as an article, which I guess you're talking about now, last week, and they claim twice that Crane threw $1.6 million damage annually. I find it a little hard to believe it's $0.25 per Wisconsin night. Why is there always fuss about shooting them or poisoning them? If it's $0.25 a person, I mean, I'd help pay a whole dollar for it. Thanks so much for the question and the comment, David. We'll turn it back to you, Rich. Sure. Yeah, you know, the hardest thing is the impact is not sort of evenly distributed, you know, and they really can do some significant damage to farms. The thing that, really, the most important thing to understand is that cranes will pick at the brand new freshly sprouted kernels of corn so they can be on a farm year-round, you know, literally 10 months of the year. And in nine months of those, the year, they really do no damage. They're probably beneficial, but we don't have data to prove that, but they eat grobs and pests and things and probably are at worst neutral, if not beneficial to farms. But in that period in May, when that corn sprouts, they can walk right down a row of corn and pluck out every little plant. Those are very tasty little shoots. I haven't sampled them myself out there, but I think to the crane, they're very tasty. And they do that damage. So the farmer who walks out on a May morning and sees a bunch of rows of corn plucked out, they're not going to be happy about that. So the damage does that up, but it's very sort of localized, you know, and for those who are affected, yeah, it's hitting the bottom line. And so that's the concern that comes in there. And the other thing that's sort of a little bit of a misunderstanding is a pair of cranes kind of breeding on a wetland on a farm do really relatively little damage. They can maybe take out a little area, but it's those flocks that move around that are the bigger issue that we call them teenagers. But basically juvenile crane flocks that move around and kind of cause trouble. And they can go in a flock of 20 or 30 birds land on a farm, you know, in a matter of, you know, a day or so they can pluck out quite a bit. So yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Rich. And I think David wanted to follow up on that as well. Yeah, Rich. I would emphasize the point that Rich made it, the cost is not distributed equally across the landscape. And so you do have farmers who might be a family farmer and they are trying to farm and their income is solely on farm income. And so, you know, depending on the crop prices, the input prices this year, everything's going up with inflation. And so when they start losing money, that can take a severe impact on them. And keep in mind, from a farmer standpoint, it's not just cranes, but they may also be suffering damage from white-tailed deer and bear, depending on where you are in the state and squirrels and raccoons and a whole host of other wildlife species. So all of that adds up relatively quickly. And again, when you're trying to create on farm income and that's your sole revenue source, that really starts to become kind of a life or death, so to speak, source there. And we start losing money from cranes and everything else, just that frustration continues to mount. So it's an issue that needs to be taken seriously, it sounds like from both of you. One of the ways to deal with it that the caller mentioned is hunting season on cranes. It was proposed a few years back in the state legislature didn't go anywhere, but now the state legislative committee is entertaining the possibility again. Before we have to let you go, Rich, do you want to share your position on a possible hunting season and what the International Crane Foundation has to say about that? Yeah, absolutely. This is such a fundamental point for us, is that there are many, many ways that we as a society, as legislators, can address crop damage in meaningful ways. And so we are working for those solutions. We do not believe a hunting season will solve any problems. We think the hunt will be limited number of people, would operate at a loss to the DNR. That's part of the reason why they haven't embraced it. Even to implement it, we see declining hunts in the other states in the eastern U.S. where you can hunt sandtills, like in places like Kentucky, Tennessee. We see declining enrollment and we just don't see it as a solution. So there can be a state debate about a hunt separately, about whether hunters in society want to hunt. But we are focused on the crop damage problem we've been working on it for 20 years. And we would like the state to get serious about solving this problem. The one way that the hunt can support crop damage is that it frees funding by legislative action. It frees funding for compensation. So right now, you need a hunt to trigger compensation payments. But frankly, that issue itself is very solvable with a legislative act that says other pests. Not every pest is a species that can be hunted. And you could easily address state funds for compensation without creating a hunting season if there was the will to do so. So we sort of reject the idea that a hunt will solve crop damage. And we would like to keep a pretty laser focus on how can we make crop treatments more affordable, like this chemical we have out there called Ava Pell that does work but is expensive and tricky to apply. You know, there are problems we need to solve. We are very committed to working with farmers to solve those problems and with seed producers and really anybody who will join with us. But that's our main. We consider the hunt to be a distraction really from solving a problem. And I guess I'll just, wearing my sort of global hat, I'll just add crop depredation with cranes is a global issue. So we're not only trying to solve it in Wisconsin, but we're trying to solve it in, you know, four countries like in Kenya and Uganda and Rwanda where people, it can be starvation for someone to lose a crop to crane. So it's very serious. So we just think finding lasting economical farmer friendly solutions to crop damage should be a huge priority in our state. And legislation has the power to do that if they want to, the people on this committee have the power to do that if they take the farming crop problem seriously. So yeah, that's our position. Yeah. And the International Crane Foundation has a voice on that legislative committee. I understand. Correct. Yeah. And Lacey of our state is on the committee. We're very grateful to her. I think she's been in the first couple of meetings and yeah, but she will be, we will be our voice in all of them. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing your perspective and expertise, Rich. I know we have to let you go. I've been talking here with Rich Belfast, president of the International Crane Foundation about the new UW, excuse me, not UW, Wisconsin legislative study committee on San Hill crane management. Thanks again for joining us, Rich. You bet. Yeah. Thanks so much. Great to be with you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. And we still have with us though, David Drake here in the studio from UW Extension. We're going to continue our conversation. So David, I'm guessing you have details you want to follow up with on what Rich was just talking about, about hunting and management, and then we can dive in further. Sure. Yeah. So I fully respect Rich's opinion and the International Crane Foundation. And they clearly have come to this position in a very thoughtful way. And as Rich has said, they've studied this project or this problem for 20 some years. So I understand where they're coming from. I'm going to disagree a little bit and disagree respectfully with Rich that I think whether they enact a hunting season or not, that allowing people to hunt is another tool in the toolbox. And so that if you are able to hunt sandal cranes on farms, maybe it makes Ava pal that chemical seed treatment that Rich alluded to, maybe it makes that even more effective, for example, or maybe it makes some of the non-lethal strategies more effective because you have that lethal management tool in the toolbox. And so I think having more tools at once disposal is probably better than not having those tools. To go back to a point I made earlier is farmers, and again, farmers have to have an understanding that you're growing a food that is very attractive to a wide suite of wildlife. And they have to also have some tolerance for damage. I mean, having an expectation for 0% damage is not realistic either. So it's a balancing act there. But farmers get really frustrated. And part of the reason they get frustrated is because they don't have the control over the situation. And so I think if they were able to have a hunting season, then that may temper some of the frustration that they feel because now it's another tool they have control of. But they also may be able to lease their property. And that might be another stream of revenue, for example, if they lease their property to have hunters come onto the property for hunting. So I think that there are some merits to seriously considering having a hunting season here. And as Richard alluded to, there's a program that the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources and Ministers. And it's a legislative program called the Wisconsin Damage Abatement and Claims Program. And so that provides through the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources and ultimately through the state legislature, through the funds that the state legislature disperses. It provides both technical abatement practices. So for example, with deer, you can put up deer fencing. You may be able to have probing cannons out in your field, which is a noise-making device to try to scare cranes out of the field, things like that. And then after you've tried abatement practices, if you're still suffering damage, then you can file for compensation monetary compensation claims. And again, that program is not an end-all, beat-all. There are some problems with compensation programs in general. But if the cranes are allowed to be hunted, then that is another species that's eligible under that Wisconsin Damage Abatement Claims Program. So it's another tool for farmers to have in the toolbox. And I think that's what's really valuable to think about. A couple follow-up, David, for you about all that. There's a lot there to talk about. One is, Rich was suggesting that the legislature could decide to uncouple the abatement program from the hunting season and say, "Oh, we're not going to make that rule apply anymore." And that that would be a good solution. Yeah. What's your response to that? Yeah, I'm not familiar with discussions that would be taking place along those lines of thought. But I could see if playing the devil's advocate, if you were to do that and you start saying precedent, all of a sudden then, you would have advocacy groups for all sorts of different species pushing for that. And with state budgetary issues and I think just from a legislative standpoint of writing legislation per species, I could see that becoming very messy and also very costly. I see. So you're saying, uncoupling it for cranes to say, "Okay, people can still get payments for killing cranes on their land when they're causing crop damage without there being a hunting season. That would create kind of a broader... I think so. We've done that with wolves, for example. So with wolf depredation, you can get compensated for wolf depredation and that money comes through the endangered species license plate. So there's got to be some fund that's going to support the disbursement of those funds for compensation and I'm not sure that would come from necessarily for cranes if you were to decouple that. Yep. And the other thing I wanted to follow up, it was interesting you suggested that a hunting season would make something like Avapel, this chemical that can be applied to corn to discourage cranes from eating it more effective. Talk a little bit more about what you mean by that. Yeah. So if cranes are... If they're nervous about being on a piece of property because something dangerous might happen to them or maybe there's some hazard to them, such as getting shot at, then they're going to spend less time on that property because they don't feel safe there. And so then maybe they're not going to do as much damage so that they're not going to walk down the entire road and pull the corn up. They might walk down 25% of the road, for example, whatever the case might be. And Avapel is very effective but it's also very expensive and it's an added process in the planting of corn for the farmers. And so there's some issues attached to Avapel that make it not readily available for everybody to use and also that not every farmer is going to be receptive to using it. And so maybe then they would be more receptive to using Avapel on some fields where they couldn't hunt that field, for example, because maybe it's surrounded by suburbia and you just can't discharge a firearm there or you're too close to a center of a road or whatever the case might be. But maybe then they would say, "Well, yeah, I'm willing to spend some money for field X but not field Y, Z, AB, and C because I can hunt those fields, for example." And so maybe it makes Avapel more of an attractive option and maybe more of an effective option. That scenario really helps elaborate kind of what you meant by the different tools in the toolkit. Like one farmer might be employing multiple strategies for addressing crane. And from a wildlife damage standpoint, multiple strategies is typically much more effective than a single strategy. Okay. I also wanted to follow up with you about what that chemical might be doing in the environment and do we know much about widespread use of Avapel? Yeah. So Avapel is a seed treatment. It's effective not just for cranes but for a wide range of other bird species such as turkeys and candy geese and things like that. It's a natural ingredient in plants. So it's anthroquinone, essentially, is what it is. And so it's EPA approved. So in order for it to be EPA approved, it's had to go through a number of trials to demonstrate it's safe for the environment, it's safe for people. Obviously you're applying to corn. People may eat that corn as well as a whole host of other animals around the stock corn and livestock and everything else. So there have been scientific trials demonstrating that it's safer in the environment, safer people in order to get EPA approval. So and it's advertised as eco-friendly and not toxic and things like that. So it basically makes the corn taste bad for the cranes. Yeah, essentially. So what typically happens is at the seed producer, the seed plant, they'll treat it with liquid avapel, put it back in the bag, then the farmer will come pick it up, put it in the seed hopper in the plant or plant that. And then if an animal comes along and eats it a bird in particular, but let's say sand hill cranes in this instance, if they eat it, it makes their stomach not feel well. And so the idea is if they've eaten something in a local area, they're generally not going to go back to that area. And so the analogy I always use is if you eat something at some buffet line, you choose where you want to go and all of a sudden, eight o'clock at night, you have a dinner, three o'clock in the morning, you're violently ill, you're likely not to go back to that same place for breakfast the next morning. And that's kind of the same analogy for avapel is it makes these animals stomachs feel upset. And because of that, they tend to shy away from that general at least that localized area. And in terms of the cost for farmers, if this were to be a more widespread way to deal with crane damage, what are the options for encouraging farmers to use it, reimburse farmers? Is that something that the legislative study committee could be looking at? Yeah, I believe that's one of the things I think especially the International Crane Foundation is advocating for is that there's some subsidization for farmers so that you can help them offset that cost of that avapel. You still have the logistical issue of treating the corn and it's just another step in the planting process. So there's going to be some education, I think, that's going to be required to encourage farmers to kind of be accepting of that additional step in the planting process. But at least if you could monetarily subsidize it, that might also win some farmers over. Okay. I want to remind listeners that you are listening to a public affair on WRT 89.9 FM. My name is Douglas Haines and I'm talking today with Dr. David Drake of UW Extension about sandhill cranes and crane management in Wisconsin in light of a new Wisconsin legislative study committee recommending options for sandhill crane management. If you have a question, observation, story to tell us about cranes and their role in the landscape, give us a call 608-256-2001 extension 9 and we have another caller on the line, Gil, welcome to a public affair. Hi. Can you hear me? Yes. So my question is about the history of this issue in terms of farmers and cranes. Because I know that back in the 90s, I thought it was mainly potato farmers, but it could have been that there was the vegetable and potato growers association with the crane foundation worked on a project to help farmers and there was a different chemical that was being used. I can't remember what it was right now. I did some stories on this when I was working for Wisconsin public radio. And one of the things was that farmers were actually able to put sort of a premium price on their crops if they use this and they worked for the Wildlife Federation. I wonder if your guests knows anything about that and wanted to hear more about it. Thanks so much for the call, Gil. David, any recollection of what he's talking about? Yeah, well, we are talking about corn, but potatoes also get hit by sandal cranes. As a matter of fact, there's a representative from the potato growers association on that 12 study panel, or 12-member study panel. So that is another issue that we haven't talked too much about. I'm not familiar with the product that they may have been expoundment in the 1990s, but it very well may have been this product that turned into ava pelle is the commercial brand name for it. But it's antarquinone and antarquinone is used in a number of other repellents for other species. So it may have been something similar along those lines that they were testing out in order to kind of develop it for market purposes. And that's eventually what it kind of came to be as ava pelle. But I'm not familiar with the specifics of that back in the '90s. Okay. Anything more you could tell us about crane consumption of potatoes or other vegetable crops in Wisconsin, which are also important crops here? Yeah, it's just, you know, they will hit a lot of different things because they're omnivores. And that's one of the things, they're an adaptable species and rich talk to a little bit about that. How adaptable and opportunistic they are. And that's one of the characteristics that has allowed them to kind of rebound from, you know, the days of market hunting and things like that is also one of the characteristics that's allowed them to move into these urban areas because they are super adaptable. And they're opportunistic in terms of they'll eat essentially what's available to them. And again, because they're omnivorous, they'll eat both plant material and animal material. So that gives them a pretty wide buffet of things to eat and a wide variety of crops as well. So, you know, they might eat some cranberries and corn and soybeans and potatoes and a wide variety of other things like that. Thanks again for the call, Gail, and expanding our sense of the issues here. Is there public support out there for a sandhill crane hunting season? Yeah, that's a good question. It doesn't seem like it. There was a study done, I think, that was commissioned by the International Crane Foundation done through the University of Wisconsin. And I think there was only amongst the public. I think only 17% of the people supported sandhill crane, so, or sandhill crane hunt, for example. And that was, I think, associated with the 2021 legislative legislation that was trying to get a hunt going then. You know, there's 18 states in the United States that allow sandhill crane hunting currently. Three provinces in Canada is rich alluded to, you know, the number of hunters, the number of sandhill cranes that are harvested is relatively small. It's about maybe 1200 cranes, something like that, not a ton of people are out there hunting. So I think, again, there might be, if they want to really make this a effective tool in the toolbox, there may have to be some added incentive in education to get people to start hunting cranes and try to manage the crane population through a lethal management, you know, recreational hunt, something like that. I don't know if you've ever had crane, but they call it the ribeye in the sky. And it's primarily the breast meat that you eat, and it is absolutely delicious. And it is just ridiculously tender. So there's an incentive, if you're, if you are, especially a person who's trying to put food on the table from like a local war standpoint, sandhill crane is a delicious thing to eat. But not necessarily given, it sounds like that, even if hunting were allowed, that people would sort of come. It does, no, that's not crazy to hunt cranes, not the history in other states as well. So yeah, and we should say also that even though there's not a season to hunt sandhill cranes and hunting sandhill cranes at Wisconsin right now is not legal, that farmers are issued depredation permits. So if a farmer is able to demonstrate that they're experiencing, you know, a sufficient amount of crane damage, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, working with the United States Fish and Life Service will issue a depredation permit, and actually that comes through the US Fish and Life Service because cranes are migratory, and any migratory species is the US Fish and Life Service at the federal level has the authority to manage that migratory species. So depredation permits are handed out yearly to farmers in Wisconsin, and roughly upwards of about 1,200 cranes are shot through those depredation permits. So again, not a large number, roughly 50,000 cranes in the state of Wisconsin is roughly the last count. So not a large percentage of cranes are shot, but again, if you're a farmer that's suffering damage, if you can limit the amount of damage or reduce it, that can make a strong impact to that individual farmer or farms within that localized region. So we have a listener, Chris, who sent in an email, and obviously we're talking sort of about the complex issue here of managing a wildlife population, but as we were talking about earlier in the show, you know, people, wildlife and human connection to wildlife is a complex emotional connection, right? And Chris sent an email saying it's just so hard to hear your current guests talking about hunting cranes. They breed for life. How do you kill one and just let the other live out the rest of its life without its partner over corn? Corn's not something we have any shortage of. So again, talking about, you know, the human connection with these animals and how difficult it is to think about a managed hunting season of them. What do you have to say to Chris in this regard? Yeah. I understand Chris's viewpoint. And I know we're focusing on hunting right now, but again, you know, there's multiple tools in the toolbox, and currently there's not a lethal management in that toolbox. So there are non-lethal management tools, and those are the tools that even if a clean hunting season is enacted, those non-lethal tools probably are going to be the bulk of the tools in the toolbox that people are going to use across the landscape anyway. So I fully understand where Chris is coming from. I'm a burger. I heard St. Hill cranes last night flying over my house. I love seeing St. Hill cranes, phenomenal species without a doubt. But what we are doing, you know, what we think about from a wildlife ecology standpoint is the population and balancing those populations with societal needs and trying to find a balance so that you do have positive human wildlife existence, coexistence and things like that. So I fully understand that if you're not a hunter or you don't support lethal management of wildlife populations, I completely understand that this can be an aggravating conversation to listen to 100%. But the reality of it is, as the crane population grows, just like the deer population has been growing, candid goose population, turkey population, you know, there's a wide, there's a variety of wildlife species where the populations are growing. Somehow we have to maintain that population growth so that we can balance those societal needs and wildlife conservation. And the most cost efficient way to do that in many cases is through some kind of a lethal harvest. And do you hear from farmers, you know, talking about their frustration with cranes in particular and you know, what happens if those frustrations kind of aren't addressed? Does that manifest in the negative kinds of ways if we don't figure out that coexistence puzzle? Yeah, I think I used to teach a class on wildlife damage management and one of the things we focused on was wildlife damage and agricultural damage. And so we'd talk to growers and bring our students out during lab to talk to growers so they could hear the growers about all the things that they have to deal with in trying to grow crop, get a crop to harvest or to market, excuse me, and things like that. And there is frustration amongst that, you know, and again, I think from an agricultural standpoint, there's so much, there's so many variables out of a farmer's control so they can't control the weather, they can't control the crop prices, they can't control the prices of the inputs, you know, be it diesel for the tractors or if you're not an organic farm, you know, the pesticides, the fertilizers, all of that. And then this is one added frustration they can't control is something eating your crop. And again, it's not realistic from a farmer's standpoint to think that you're going to have zero damage. I mean, that you've got to have some tolerance, you know, and you've got to tolerate some amount of damage. But once that exceeds your tolerance, whatever that case is, and again, it has to be a reasonable tolerance. But what is it? Once it exceeds your tolerance, then again, people's opinion of a species shifts and positive to negative. And that's not what we want either because, you know, you hear people talking about deer as rats with antlers, and that's not a way to look at a majestic animal like a deer. And we don't want that to be the case and we don't want that negative attitude to start spreading through society, you know, toward wildlife because that's not going to do conservation efforts to go to either. There is still time to give us a call here if you want to share a perspective or observation about cranes and crane management. The number is 608-256-2001 extension nine. We would love to have you join the conversation. My name is Douglas Haines. I'm talking today with David Drake of UW Extension about cranes. David, do you feel like, or are you optimistic about good outcomes coming out of this? Legislative Study Committee, are there certain outcomes you're hoping for personally? What's your sense of the process? Yeah. I think, you know, I think one thing could just be raising people's awareness of cranes as a species out there. And I think it's rich, eloquently alluded to, you know, cranes are one of those species where people can't identify it. And that's the San Diego crane, you know, as opposed to that's a fox sparrow or a song sparrow or whatever that little brown job is that I'm looking at. And so, anything like that where we can start hooking people and getting them interested in wildlife. I mean, you look at some of the statistics about how many hours a day of screen time kids have versus how many minutes a day they're outside is alarming and is extremely disturbing. So anything we can do to get people interested in wildlife and this Legislative Study Committee, you know, one of the things that's in the news right now, so it's starting to generate some information about cranes. And then it starts conversations at the bar or around the dinner table or whatever the case is. And that's not a bad thing, you know, to start talking about that. So I think that's a really good thing. And regardless of what comes of this 12-number study panel, whether it's the outcome is an enacted crane harvest season or not, we're putting more information on the problem, we're examining it in deeper angles. And I think that also is a good because it's going to be added perspective. And again, maybe added understanding across different perspectives from people who are, you know, maybe don't understand why you'd want a crane season or don't understand maybe the farmer's frustration that if we can get people to be a little bit more empathetic toward each other's viewpoint, I think that would be a good thing too. Yeah, I so appreciate you thinking about those kind of sociological and cultural dimensions of the conversations and how the conversation is really important in terms of helping people think critically and complexly about our relationships with wildlife. And clearly with all the comments we're getting people are thinking about it and does, you know, wildlife does mean something to people. We had somebody else call in wondering about the non-lethal coding on that Avapel and how it affects the birds population-wise. Do we know anything about not just individual health, but does it affect reproduction or anything like that? Sure doesn't. It's not lethal to the birds, you know, so this is a non-lethal technique, a non-lethal management option. It doesn't affect them from a reproductive standpoint. It doesn't affect their life, doesn't shorten their life in any way, things like that. And that's another thing that through the EPA process that would have to be demonstrated that if something is going to be put out in an environment, how does that both affect the target species but the non-target species? And so it has to be demonstrated that that's going to be safe to the target species as well as non-target species. Yeah. I think we'll go full circle back to where we started here, David, because we didn't get to ask you at the top, you know, what Sandhill cranes represent for you personally and what you would like the public to know about them. And then maybe we have a few minutes left, we might talk about some of your other work with other species. Sure, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, as an exceptional wildlife specialist, I do spend a considerable amount of time educating people about wildlife. And so anything I can do to educate people, increase their interest in wildlife, increase their understanding of wildlife, and hopefully that can manifest into some kind of a positive productive behavior or positive productive action that can benefit wildlife in some capacity. And so, you know, Sandhill cranes again, birds are a wonderful avenue into getting people hooked up with nature. You think about all the people who are backyard bird watching, backyard bird feeding and things like that. And to see a Sandhill crane, this kind of prehistoric animal is pretty cool. For me personally, again, I love birds, I love birding, I bird quite a bit. And with each year I'm getting older, I don't appreciate winter that much any longer. So for me personally, when I hear the Sandhill cranes coming back in, you know, sometimes January or February, I'm like, oh, thankfully, which is going to end, I promise it's going to end. And so that to me is a really hopeful thing to hear them coming back similar for Cedar wax wings, you know, the early migratory species. And then you see them out there in the fall and you see them kind of gathering, you know, it's kind of the turning of the seasons coming and that's kind of fun to, you know, think about that as well. But, you know, again, as Rich started off at the top of the hour or top of the show is there are so many examples where as a human species, we have either created a severe reduction in wildlife populations and plant populations and harm the world in the earth in some way. And for us to be able to celebrate these success stories and again, white tail deer is a great example of that. Beavers are a great example of that. Sandhill cranes are a good example of that. So I think that just about look at that and say yes, we can do good as well. There's a word for these species that are so well adapted to coexisting with humans. Sin and throat. Sin and throat. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a commensals, another word, but we tend to think about commensal species as species that are strongly tied to humans and where you don't have human civilization, you don't have those commensal species. So Norway, Norway, rats, house mice, European starlings, things like that. And sin and throat was a broader word that would include species that are urban adapted. So that live within that same landscape as urban, as I'm sorry, same landscape as humans, but they can also live away from humans and we'll be just fine as well. Uh huh. Would you consider cranes at this point? Yeah, for sure. Yep. Yeah. I mean, you were talking about backyard bird watching and one doesn't think that of cranes as a backyard bird species, but I've literally seen them walking down our street in the middle of the street. I know. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Everybody sort of stops their tracks, right? Dogs. Yeah. Uh, sometimes get a little upset or have you heard of any cases where cranes and dogs? No. No, I have not. But cranes are a big bird. Yeah. They can stand five feet tall, some of them and their wings span six to seven feet. So, you know, when they, when they feel threatened, they kind of extend those wings. That's a pretty formidable presence standing in front of you. Yep. Well, we have a few minutes left, David. We had you here. I think it was early last year to talk about the UW-urban, uh, caned project. Yeah. It would be great to hear a little update on that project and, uh, your study of urban carnivores. Oh, I'm going to preempt that because we do have a color we want to make sure he gets in. Yep. Absolutely. But, uh, yeah. So color Steve is on the line. Uh, welcome to public affairs. Steve. Hey, good morning. Thanks for a great topic. Uh, one thing I'd like our guests to do is be cautious with the word farmers and reframe the word farmers, because a lot of what he's talking about is corporate agriculture growing corn that it's questionable if we really need it. So, uh, I would just ask him to reflect on that and think that farmers are, uh, doing something else and a lot of these huge corn growers, uh, belong in a different category, corporate agriculture. Thank you very much for the, for the call, Steve, and we, we caught a hint of that kind of feeling in the earlier message as well, that of course there's this cultural conversation about do we need all this corn? And of course, dairy farmers are growing corn too to feed to their cows. But what Steve is talking about is, uh, maybe there's some corn happening in the food system that is not staying here. Yep. Yeah. Uh, Steve, uh, noted, I'll say that and how about we say agricultural producer instead of farmer? Okay. Um, that, that there are obviously different, different, uh, kinds of producers, different kinds of, uh, things happening in the food system that of course we don't have time to get into today. But we do get into on this show sometimes. So we appreciate people having the critical perspective on what's happening in our food system. For sure. For sure. Thanks for the call, Steve. Um, so yeah, we'll go back to that urban cany project. Yeah. So, um, since 2014, um, a wide variety of students and myself have been live trapping coyotes in red fox here in the city of Madison and, um, putting radio collars on them and, and learning about their ecology and urban landscapes. And it has been a extremely fun, rewarding, I think successful project. Um, and so we were not able to trap last year because we were changing collar manufacturers. We've been using GPS or global positioning system collars, um, which connect that collar to the satellites in the space and then those satellites bay, uh, bounced into our computers, um, spatial locations of, of where these animals are. And so last year we were going to switch over to a cellular based collar and, and the company we contracted with to make them didn't produce the collars for us. So this year we've got collars in hand. We're going to start trapping again, uh, probably in the next month or so, month and a half. We'll start trapping again. And, um, I would encourage anybody who is interested to follow our Facebook page. It's an open Facebook page is UW urban cany project. Um, but what we've typically done with the, the, uh, most of the years that we've been on this project, we invite the public to come out trapping with us. And that has been a really fun, uh, kind of part of this project for us because we get to interact with the public. We get to share with them like intimate details about what we're doing and how we do this. And just to be really clear, this, would you say trapping these, this is, uh, the animals are released right now. Yeah. Absolutely. So is live trapping, right? It's been a long time because we want to collect a lot of data off those collars. So we, we live trap them, uh, we sedate them, uh, we process the animal. So we draw blood samples and we take some, uh, health metrics on the animal, put a radio collar on them. We're, we're again, we're very transparent about what we do, especially when we have got the public public with us so everybody can see what we're doing. Um, but this year we're going to continue to invite the public out. We'll make an advertisement on our Facebook page. So if you're interested in coming, trapping with us, we would love to have you come out with us. Things we're going to do this year is, uh, I've got a new graduate student in the project. Um, she is surveying people who are going to come out with us because we're curious about when you come to, to trap with us, are we changing your opinion, your knowledge, your attitude, not only toward, uh, urban coyotes and urban red fox, but are you, are we changing your attitude and knowledge and opinion about trapping? And so, um, if you come trapping with us, uh, we're going to ask you to take a, a very short survey before you come out trapping with us. We're going to take you trapping with us and we're going to have you take a very very short post survey to see if we're making any difference, uh, through experimental, experimental learning, um, if we're making a difference in, in how you kind of view some of these subjects. So we'd love to have you come out, but please watch the Facebook page. Yeah. I'm glad we got a quick update on that project. Um, RJ, we have one more caller and, uh, we're going to see if we can do this in like 30 seconds. RJ, because I want your voice to be heard here. Thank you. Um, with all the problems that we have with the feral pigs, how can I haven't heard anything about a season on them or is there? I'm not a hunter, but apparently hunters like to come from all over to shoot our wolves. What about the feral pigs? I think that's a bigger problem, isn't it? Yeah. Thank you. Yep. Yeah. Good question. Thankfully, uh, as far as, uh, the wildlife managers are aware, we do not have feral pigs in the state of Wisconsin right now. So they were introduced into Crawford County in the southwestern part of the state. We did have a handful of feral pigs, but we think, uh, and I say we that the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources and USDA Wildlife Services, we think that the number of pigs is, uh, zero, uh, in the state of Wisconsin, but it is constantly being monitored because we do not want feral pigs in the state. It is a disaster. Look at, uh, Georgia Arkansas, Texas, Florida, you know, where they've got feral pigs. It is a problem that will never go away. Thank you so much, David. We covered a lot of territory here today. Um, you've been listening to a public affair. I'm your Monday host, Douglas Haines, and I've been talking with Dr. David Drake of UW Extension, mostly about St. Del Crenes, but lots of other wildlife topics as well. Thanks for coming in today, David. Thank you so much for having me. I'd also like to thank today's engineer, Andrew Thomas, producer, Jade Isere Ramos, news director, Shali Pittman, and receptionist, Mary Lou. If you've appreciated the show today, please share it on the Word Online Archive or wherever you find your podcasts, and thank you listeners very much for joining us today on a public affair here at WRT 89.9 FM Madison. Stay tuned for Madison book beat. We come and listen and support it, die in the record, we come and never pre-recorded with information that will never be reported, district or the mainstream, media distorted, we come and listen and support it, we come and never pre-recorded. (upbeat music)