WORT 89.9FM Madison
Dr. Edgar Spalding on Dragonflies, Damselflies, and Citizen Science
(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to WORT's perpetual notion machine here on 89.9 FM Madison. I'm your host tonight Kate Poppy. Here in the studio with me today is botanist and wildlife researcher, Dr. Edgar Spalding. Dr. Spalding was a professor of botany here in Madison for 30 years, researching plant physiology before retiring earlier this year. He now spends his time studying dragonflies and he's the president of the Wisconsin Dragonfly Society. Thanks for being here, Dr. Spalding. - Oh, it's my pleasure, glad to be here, thank you. So you're the president of the Wisconsin Dragonfly Society. What draws you to these creatures and why are they worth studying for decades? - Wow, dragonflies are very interesting animals. We also call, they are insects. So all insects are also animals. They're beautiful and they have really interesting life cycle. And they also play important roles in our environment. So for both kind of scientific curiosity reasons and purely the aesthetics, I'm really drawn to studying dragonflies. - So we'll dig into the specifics of the dragonfly project in a little bit. But I was hoping you would first explain a little bit about what a citizen scientist does at the Arboretum and how people can get involved. - Oh, that's a good question. So the Wisconsin Dragonfly Society, it's interested in having people learn and understand more about dragonflies and educating the population about dragonflies. And the Arboretum was interested to know at the UW Madison. It was interested to know what kind of dragonflies they have in their environments. And so what we did was teamed up and members of the Dragonfly Society started leading regular walks in the Arboretum where we would survey the dragonflies we could find. And at the same time, teach people who are interested how to look for them and identify them themselves. What happened as a result of this partnership is that the Arboretum began to learn more about the species that inhabit their lands and more and more people in the Madison area started getting interested in competent or capable of identifying the different species. So it was a win-win situation. And to get involved, all you have to do is come to one of our walks. There's no pre-registration required. The season is winding down. So it's September now. We only have a couple of more scheduled. But the schedule is posted on the Arboretum's website. So all you have to do is look up under their events tab, find the Dragonfly monitoring walks, and come. - Very cool. And anybody can come, no experience required. - No experience required. There's the people that do come range from people who have never seriously looked at a Dragonfly before, all the way up to people who can tell at a glance when a little blob zips by what it is. And the people that know are really eager and happy to teach the people who don't know. We bring along field guides so we can show people what they saw in the field guide in case they didn't get a good look in real life. If you do come and you have binoculars, those are helpful. And also a lot of nature photographers get interested in Dragonflies. So if you're one of them, bring your camera. - Very cool. And how many walks you have throughout the summer? - We do them twice a month from May to the 1st of October. - After the 1st of October, the pickings are getting pretty thin. - See it. So is the Dragonfly Monitor Project something that's connected to the Wisconsin Dragonfly Society or is it kind of a separate thing with the arboretum? - It takes both sides. It took the arboretum's interest in understanding what's there. And it took the Dragonfly Society passion for teaching people. So it wouldn't have happened without both, I would say. And if one half got less interested, then the thing would fall apart. So it takes both of us. But the things that get found and seen there have a life beyond the arboretum too, because the data gets entered into a database that is operated by the Department of Natural Resources, the DNR. And that database collects observations from across the entire state. So what we find at the arboretum gets added to a much larger project that's statewide. And from all the citizen scientists, 'cause none of these people are professional entomologists really, from all the Dragonfly enthusiasts across the state, we build up this view of what the Dragonfly status is the state by submitting the observations to the statewide database. The arboretum project is one piece of that. - Very cool. So what does the data look like for a citizen scientist? So let's say someone wants to be a citizen scientist. What kind of data should they collect out in the field? - Well, they should first be able to identify the species that they see. It's not helpful to say I saw a Dragonfly and it's not helpful to say I saw a large green one. It requires the ability to say I saw a common green darner. And then all that's needed is the location and the species identification and the date. That's the minimum data required to enter into the database. - And so people get better at learning the species through the Dragonfly walks? - Exactly, that sort of our mission is to bring people up the learning curve so they get competent to identify the local species. Then on their own, they can identify and contribute to the larger statewide project. That's the idea. And some of them have, I've been one of the, some of the really exciting moments have come when people from our walk have found significant, have made significant sightings that surprised other people. So it's working. - So if someone was to be a citizen scientist collecting the data, is this something that they would be doing all day? Is it just a couple minutes they have to look at a Dragonfly and then they can write it down? Or how does that work? - It can be what you make of it. It can be as incidental as something you noted in your backyard, or it could be part of a deliberate three hour hike that you have planned. It's, there's no structure to how you go about it. If you can identify the Dragonfly, then that's an observation that we value. - Cool, and what other projects are like this at the Arboretum for citizen scientists? - Well, I can't speak too knowledgeably about that, but they have Monarch Monitoring Projects and Bumblebee Monitoring Projects. Those are two that I'm familiar with, but I urge you to contact the Arboretum to learn more about their citizen science projects. The Dragonfly Monitoring Project is just one of several, but I don't know too much about the others. - So the idea of the Dragonfly Monitoring Project is to look at the population of Dragonflies, of course, but it's also to look at the overall health of the ecosystem. So is this something, is this because Dragonfly populations in Wisconsin are threatened or endangered in any way? - Well, let's talk about that for a minute. There's a couple of ways to approach that question. Dragonflies spend the majority of their life cycle as nymphs underwater, and during that time, they are completely dependent on that aquatic environment. So the health of a Dragonfly population is tied to the health of the aquatic ecosystem, and some of the species thrive and require fast-flowing streams, for example. Some are specific to fast-flowing streams with sandy bottoms. Some require still ponds with mucky bottoms and lots of vegetation. So by surveying the Dragonflies that we see flying, we learn something about the status of the aquatic environments around. And it's hard to say about trends because years can be so different. Last year, more than 80% of Wisconsin was in some degree of drought status. And this year, we had so much rain that the whole state was, all that drought status was eliminated. And so under those kinds of changing year-to-year conditions, year-to-year conditions, it's difficult to pinpoint trends. And also, there are so few people monitoring that I'm not sure we know against that background of year-to-year variability, what the overall population trends are. That's one reason we're interested in getting as much data, as much many observations as we can. - Yeah, how many citizen scientists do you have about? - Well, I think there's a couple of hundred that regularly contribute to the statewide database. Fewer than 200, probably, but more than 100 people regularly contribute from all the 72 counties across the state. And just because of the nature of the business, the enthusiasts go to those counties where the Dragonflies are the neatest or the most abundant. So we have a lot of counties with a lot more data, and some counties with very little. That's one of the challenges to understanding the overall trends, too. - See, well, I think this is a good time for a break for our pledge drive. Also here in the studio with me is Charlie Pittman. - Hi, Kate. Hello. - This is so fascinating. I have to say, I never thought that much about Dragonflies, no disrespect to our guests who has clearly spent a lot of time thinking about Dragonflies. But we are in our fall fundraiser, and so I'm here to get to listen in on your conversation. And so, yes, we are in our first day of the fundraiser, and we're asking for your support to be the perpetual notion machine. Now, Kate, not to out you, but you're a new voice to the collective, which is really exciting. And this was a great idea, and I'm so glad that our guest is in the studio. Thank you for being here. And we're asking for your support to this show to increase access to citizen scientists. Madison has one of the richest kind of citizen scientist folks community in the nation, I think, right? We have folks who are incredibly dedicated and committed, and not only are science community at UW or in other research areas and private industry, but also people who, like our guest, Dr. Enchris Paulding, who just really have an interest in so many aspects of science. And that's what we try to do here on the perpetual notion machine is bring all aspects of science to your ears. So we're asking for your support. Kate, the number to call? That's 608-256-2001. I know, that's not a big enough fun. 608-256-2001. That's the number to call to show your support for this conversation and all the conversations like it. You can also pledge online at WRTFM.org. And Kate, I had you prepare some fast facts. We're aiming for four donors in this half hour. So in the next 15 minutes, actually, four of you to call in or donate online to support this show, but for each person who donates during the show, Kate will give us a dragonfly fast fact. Yes, they're very cool facts. Oh, wow, that's a good game. Yeah! And I read them, I can guarantee that they're pretty good and you can help us fact check them, okay? Okay, I'll fact check, yeah, excellent. And Penny goes to the local stream near you, right? Oh, well, no, but we spend a lot of time talking about water quality and streams and all things ecological and environmental. So 608-256-2001 or online at WRTFM.org. I know Kate has a lot more questions. Can I sneak one in? I'm just so curious. You mentioned that there are local dragonfly species. I'm really curious to know what those are. Okay, well, that's a great question. Charlie, one, you have a good chance of seeing now at this stage in the season because the answer to your question really does depend on the time of the year and even what water you might be nearby. But one species you're very likely to see now is called the common green darner. It's large, it's one of our largest species and a whole batch of them has recently emerged from their aquatic environment, emerged out of their nymphs in the last few weeks and they are big noticeable dragonflies. They like to fly in groups this time of year and even in some cases form enormous swarms because this is an unusual species in that it's migratory and it will be heading south soon. And so I would say if your chances of seeing a dragonfly now are a large dragonfly that you see now, the chances are good that it's the common green darner and you have a pretty good chance of seeing one if you're out anywhere in nature in the next couple of weeks. They have a green thorax that's their body and the males have the body part where the four wings are attached and then the long tail is the abdomen and in the male it's a sky blue color and in the female it's a brownish green. So look for that big species. - And by big, how big do you mean? - About four inches long. - It's pretty big, are there others? I'm so cute, I didn't, how many dragonflies are there in general? - Okay, the state has approximately 165 species of dragonflies and damselflies combined. Damselflies are another type of closely related insect and people who are interested in dragonflies are also generally interested in their cousins, the damselflies. Alt together, it's 165 and the numbers, I'm probably off by one or two because a couple of new ones have just been found in recent years in the state. Now, not all of those are regularly seen. Some of those include one-off. That's a rarity that might blow in from the south. But if you're serious dragonfly enthusiast and you look around Madison area, you can, in the course of a summer, see 65 species, say, just around the Madison area, Dane County, for example. So all statewide though the number goes up but some of those are rarely seen. - Cool, could you describe what the new ones look like and maybe why we haven't noticed some till now? - Oh, that's a great question. Some of Wisconsin is interesting in where it's positioned. It's at the northern edge of some species, southern species range. So some species might regularly get to Illinois but have not yet started showing up in Wisconsin. And two years ago, one of those just sneaked across the Illinois border and seems to have taken up shop in Turtle Creek, which is in Beloit. It's the only spot this species has been seen in Wisconsin and it's just across the boundary line. And it's called the eastern, I'm sorry, the common ring tail. And now another one was a total surprise this year. It's also a southeastern species. Had never been seen in Wisconsin before, had been recorded in Illinois before but two or three were seen along the Lake Michigan coast from Door County to Manitowoc County. And it's called the Golden Wing Skimmer, gorgeous creature. Only a couple of people got to see them but the photographs prove it that they've shown up. In the Madison area, it's not a brand new species but it's a rare species that again is from the south in east of the US, has just seemed to be taken up shop in the UW Arboretum. It's called the Great Blue Skimmer. That's exciting because it seems that it really has, we've now seen it multiple years. We've seen males and females, we believe they're breeding in the Arboretum. So it's one that's just crept into this part of the state coming up from the south. - That's really neat. I'll have to go to the Arboretum. Check it out. - They're gone. That's the thing about dragonflies. They only live a short, so the Great Blue Skimmer's life cycle is now complete. If it's there, it's in the form of eggs or nymphs under the water. I'm afraid the flying adults have lived their life and won't be seen until next year, June-ish. - I'll have to go in June then. - Exactly. - Could you describe the difference between a dragonfly and a damselfly? - Okay, they both belong to the order of insects called odenata and to shorten that, we often just say odes. And if we say odes, we're referring to damselflies and dragonflies. And the simplest distinction between them, which is pretty fail safe, is that when a dragonfly purchase, it holds its wings out perpendicular to its body, all four wings out perpendicular to the thorax. Whereas when a damselfly purchase, it folds its wings back along its abdomen. So the wings are not sticking out. They're folded along parallel to the abdomen. - Kind of like a butterfly. Some butterflies. - Some butterflies, yeah. Some butterflies perch with their wings out too. Yeah. There's some other differences. The damselflies are typically much smaller. We have a couple of large damselflies and we have a couple of very tiny dragonflies. So the size is not a fail safe one. Also, the way their eyes are held, damselflies have their eyes out on the sides of their heads. And dragonflies, the eyes fill up pretty much the whole head. But the wing, the manner of wing holding is the biggest, single most difference. - Cool. So there's, what do you say, two, two more walks, the summer yet? - We will, I think our last, I don't have the schedule in front of me. I think the last one is early October. And yeah, probably two more left. One more, yeah, probably two more left at the arboretum. - Yeah, so you seem to be getting kind of known in the community for your dragonfly monitoring walks in the arboretum. So what do you do on these walks? What do you, what do you look for? - Ah, well, we, we, we want to make them a fun. So the first thing we do is we try hard to find dragonflies. We don't want to have people come and then strike out. So half of my brain is busy looking for a good dragonfly to show people. And the other half of my brain is answering questions. And I'm not the only one there who's knowledgeable. There are other experienced people there too. So we sort of have two goals. One is to find as much as possible. And that involves looking for motion scanning. And the other half is engaging the people who are there and answering their typically very good questions. So it's multitasking for sure. But almost always, we, we come up with some good chances to observe a beautiful creature. And they really can be strikingly gorgeous. Reds, blues, greens, yellows. And then when we get a good opportunity, we can sort of launch into the, the interesting things about that particular insect and then also how it relates to the whole group. - So dragonflies are of course known for being around water. Is there anywhere else in the Madison area? People can go check out dragonflies? - Oh, absolutely. That's the wonderful thing about them. Is that any retention pond in your area, any drainage ditch? And we are blessed in Madison with a variety of water types, things from the big lake, Mendota, to marshes like Teni Park, to all the retention ponds and neighborhoods around playgrounds, they all host dragonflies and damsel flies without exception. So there is a no place, no reason that nobody is living in a dragonfly desert in the city of Madison and its surroundings. There are opportunities to see these beautiful creatures in all neighborhoods. - Yes, that's very special about Madison. And some people who might have ponds at home, what kind of plants should they plant to attract dragonflies? - Well, that's interesting. You will have some success. If you have a backyard garden pond, some dragonflies and damsel flies will take a stab at reproducing in your pond. I know that from personal experience 'cause I have a little one about the size of a bathtub and in it, I have a couple of water plants. One is water plantain and the other is aero leaf. And the plant itself is probably not an attractant because the dragonflies aren't, they don't eat anything of plant material. They don't nectar. They get all their food from eating other insects. And so, but what they do use the plants for is in some species, require them as a place for the nymph to crawl out. So if a pond was only water and had no exit path, then the nymphs would not be able to crawl out and emerge. So some dragonflies will lay their eggs only in ponds that have sufficient vegetation in them to provide a stalk for the nymph to grow out. They're not gonna lay in a pond that's gonna put their offspring in peril. So other dragonflies actually pierce the plant material and place their eggs inside the plant material so that when the plant material dies, it flops into the water and that's how the nymph accesses the water. So some aquatic plants with stems is a good thing to have in your pond if you want dragonflies to reproduce in them. - Okay, is there any requirement with like, do they like shallow water, do they like deeper ponds? - It all depends on the species. The type of water, yeah, its species dependent. My pond is about 18 inches or two feet deep and I've had three or four species reproduce in it. But it's, the type of species that a pond will produce, only some species will reproduce in a backyard pond. - Yeah, it's probably a bit harder compared to arboretum. There's a lot more wildlife going on there. - Yeah, the marshes there are much more elaborate. And a species that requires a stony bottomed fast flowing trout stream is not going to be attracted to your pond. It's not even going to be in Madison probably. - Right. - Some people like to have dragonflies in their ponds because they'll eat all the mosquito larvae in the pond. And then when they're at flying adults, they'll eat all the mosquitoes that have become flying adults. - So I heard a quote by you saying that bird watching is kind of like the gateway drug to dragonfly and butterfly monitoring. So how does you end up getting into dragonflies? - I stand by that statement. As ever since I was a child under the influence of my father, I was a bird watcher. And my progression from birds through butterflies and into dragonflies is not unusual. Many bird watchers do it. And I've spent some time thinking about why that is. And I think these sorts of hobbies come from a strong interest in placing names on what you see. You see something that strikes you as interesting and beautiful and well, if it was a person you'd want to know his or her name, right? I think it's similar when it's, if you're also attracted to the nature, when you see something that has an impact on you, you want to know their name. So then you go down the pathway of identifying things. And then once you've seen a lot of the birds around and you've seen them year after year as they come along, then your desire to see and identify things hasn't changed. But the number of things that are new to you are fewer unless you start looking at other things. And then so you start looking at what I call other pretty things with wings, like butterflies. And then you learn that they all have names and that they are challenging to identify. Whether the spot on the four wing is large or small or is it shaped like a circle or a square, those all those details become challenges. And then dragonflies just fit that same pattern. They are large enough to be observable by eye. You notice the same thing wouldn't be true of aphids, I suppose, where you really, they may not make an impression on you, but the dragonflies in nature can be quite striking. You will be struck by one when you get a good look at it. It will make an impression and then it kicks in this desire if you find them attractive to identify them. So I think they're related hobbies and you start off with birds and you slide in. - Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for being here. Really learned a lot about dragonflies. I'm gonna turn it back to Charlie Pittman. - Well, you're very welcome. I had a great time, thank you. - Yeah, well, thank you so much. We have been speaking with our fabulous guests. What's our fabulous guest name? Dr. Edgar Spalding, thanks so much for being here tonight. We're almost out of time, so I'll just give you the phone number, 608-256-2001. That's the number to pledge. You can pledge online at wrtfm.org. I'm Charlie Pittman, but shout out to Kate Poppy for hosting tonight's show and we'll have to have you back, Dr. Spalding, to talk more about dragonflies. All right. - It would be my pleasure. - And with that, radio literature is coming up next and we will see you next Thursday.
Dr. Edgar Spalding sat down with WORT to talk about citizen science, dragonfly walks at the UW Arboretum, recently discovered species of dragonflies, and more!