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Strongman Dystopia

Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Professor of History and Italian Studies at NYU, has written a book, Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present, in which she explains what modern authoritarian leaders have in common with each other and how their plans follow the typical script of fascism developed a hundred years earlier. This is an interview that Ms. Ben-Ghiat did with 8 O’Clock Buzz host Tony Castañeda earlier this year when she was in Madison. Don Trump, Vladamir Putin, Victor Orban and Benjamin Netanayhu are the current reincarnations of this personality type promoting a “leader cult” who utilize the authoritarian playbook of victimization and avenging savior. Image by Sabrina Belle from Pixabay

Broadcast on:: 19 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

take 34 you are turned into Thursday eight o'clock buzz Ruth Ben Geatt is an internationally acclaimed historian she's a speaker and political commentator for CNN the Washington Post and other publications she's a professor of history and Italian studies at New York University and lives in New York City and this last Friday she appeared here at the Bonona Terrace to give a great presentation on authoritarian authoritarianism we're gonna play an interview that I did with her when was this way back in March of this year right now so stay tuned here we go Ruth Ben Geatt she's a professor of history and Italian studies at NYU her latest book is Strongman Musalini to the present she's a regular commentator on CNN MSS NBC as well as other media outlets and she has an online newsletter Lucid which we'll talk about at the end so you can find out how to subscribe to that Ruth good morning and thanks for being on the show thank you for having me all right and you have been on WRT before I'm sure on our public a fair program in the afternoons right yes yes well like I told you the first thing well fascism is a term that gets thrown around a lot lately and it means different things to different people could you just give me a simple description of fascism so Musalini the founder of fascism never wanted to define it because he wanted many people to be able to be fascist in their own way so that's partly why there's such like it's such a fluid term and it means things in different ages but you always have racism it's a hyper nationalist originally one party state dictatorship with a leader cult a cult of victimhood about the leader and the nation has to be victimized and that victimization justifies the kind of repression against internal enemies and eventually external enemies so you have also domestication of labor so you have things arranged so capital can domesticate labor you have obviously propaganda corruption that's hidden right from from the people by the propaganda and you have of course violence and fascism very it's not it's pretty relevant to the U.S. context that fascism started in Italy as a decentralized militia movement and Musalini squads his black shirts would just one of them and then it coalesced and became fascism all right now you mentioned that there was a lot of what shall I say fascist tendencies and fascist statements that Trump addressed in his recent appearance at the conservative political action committee can you talk a little bit about what he was talking about in the role of victimization play in Trump's continued presence on the national political scene yeah so so I started out as a historian of fascism Italian fascism and then more broadly also Nazism and I started doing my public work when Trump first came on the scene and I saw things that were very very familiar to me the loyalty oath the complaining that he was persecuted you know the idea of a strong leader who can fix everything and save the nation so these are so you know fascism isn't gonna look the same way today because today you went for office mostly you know in elections and you have to fix the election system and discredit it in people's minds to stay in power right and if you don't stay in power like in Brazil and US you have an insurrection to try and you know stay there anyway right if you lose the election but so all of these things come through and in the CPAC speech I was just very struck and so I wrote an essay for my newsletter Lucid called victim and avenger because Trump is is the latest of all these authoritarian to says that he is a victim of a witch hunt and of course the constellation of forces changes like Mussolini and Hitler it was League of Nations Communists Jews of course but but for Trump it's the deep state it's George Soros who's also the Jew you know the all the people who could investigate him and so they they for most politicians if you're under investigation you would never want to run for office because you'll be under the spotlight you could have opposition research bringing out the things you want to hide strong men are not most politicians so they think it's perfectly it's a great idea to run for office because they can claim they're victimized so Trump has his witch you know witch hunt persecution rhetoric and that's very appealing to many people they feel actually protective of him that's part of the leader cult and then the point is to get back into office so that you can shut down the investigations and so he you know Trump is just the latest the Netanyahu in Israel a prudent ran for office under investigation Berlusconi so this is what these kinds of leaders do so it's very struck by these elements in Trump's speech that go back to original fascism but also continue to our day right yeah and balsanera also all these guys are facing criminal charges of one of one sort or another you say the trumpet yes you say the Trump is frustrated and and that makes him more dangerous could you explain so because there because he's corrupt and he's facing myriad investigations and he always have the man had so many he's been involved in so many investigations and lawsuits that they have their own Wikipedia entry he and Erdogan and Turkey and Berlusconi are so litigious and so mixed up in the law they have their own Wikipedia entries their their their life with the law and so so Trump Trump you know the more that they feel threatened the more dangerous they become and so in my book Strongman I was able to predict I didn't know what he would do but I was able to predict that he wouldn't go quietly from office the because they can't they can't they're not like regular leaders who say okay my time is over I respect you know the democratic transition of power for a strongman to be to be investigated in the threat of jail it drives them to do things like January 6 and so even now he sees he's you know a lot of the GOP is transferring their alliances on to DeSantis who is a kind of more disciplined extremist and so Trump we should never discount what Trump might do and the kind of violence he might incite because they just can't fade from the scene that's their biggest fear psychologically is being forgotten now in that same speech at CPAC Trump actually called for termination of some sections of the Constitution what about that a former president who's sworn to uphold the Constitution all of it what about him saying something like that so these are we need to take it seriously these are also what I called trial balloons and I've been tracking these since 2016 because I started writing about Trump in 2015 and I immediately saw that he that you throw out all these guys do this do territory did it they all do it you throw out a trial balloon of an outrageous idea and then it gets into the system and you have a whole right wing you know media ecosystem that circulates it and strongmen specialize in bringing what was unthinkable and experimental into being right over time and that's how to use propaganda and these threat so him saying this yes of course he's sworn to uphold the Constitution but he doesn't believe in the Constitution he scorns it actually and only someone who scorns the entire idea of democratic governance and thinks that he is bound to serve of course that makes no sense to the strongman mentality the people serve him and that's also why Trump actually spent one third of his time in office visiting Trump branded properties he had no interest in governing and this was something that every time a people a society wherever it is in the world is presented with a Trump like figure they don't grasp immediately that these people have no interest in governing they have no idea of public service everything is supposed to serve them and enrich them so they want to make money after presidency they want to hide their corruption do all the things that serve them and I alone can fix it when he told you he was gonna fix it what he meant was he's gonna fix it so that it worked for him yes that is what I wanted to talk about why do people see authoritarianism as appealing you know so my research which the idea the book was to find or to to look at hundred years of authoritarianism right wing because I didn't see any books that went from fascism to the right wing military coups up to the Bolsonaro's and Trump's that the idea was to see if they're patterns in when these people appeal and I did find a major one is when a society has gone through a lot of change or something that people perceive as overly rapid change or change they don't like such as we were ripe for this eight years of Barack Obama know many people didn't accept an African-American president and what did he do he legalized same-sex marriage he brought women into combat so other times in history it's been workers rights like after World War I and Italy fear of socialism so that's when when things are in transition and in your all-American context it's been white males and whites in general who feel they're their privileges are threatened their status is threatened their authority and so they these people come so you have the circumstance and then you have people who recognize this is a good time for them to act and so Trump I believe he's a marketer he scanned the political marketplace and he saw there was this turmoil and he addressed himself remember he said you were the forgotten white rural working class right and whites in general and you're forgotten no longer I love you I'm going to take care of you and this is highly appealing plus they're machismo I have a chapter on machismo in the book because I think you should take it seriously the defender the protector all of this so over and over it's that these times of great transition when people don't feel served by traditional parties that these guys come in and they found you new parties or they you know Trump called his he called it a movement at the beginning and that's really important Trump is a movement that's how he has these like you know cult followers it's a cult so that's when that's when they appeal all right we're speaking with Ruth Ben Guillot she's a professor of history and Italian studies at NYU she's also the author of well her latest book is strong man Mussolini to the president to the president and we're we're talking a little bit about that you some of your recent articles you mentioned Elon Musk some say he's the richest man in the world what is a person like Elon Musk fit in on this on the rise of fascist authorities and growth in this in our country yeah it's been it's been really interesting certainly a case study to see how what Musk has been doing with Twitter after he bought it and Musk in my opinion is is an authoritarian personality and since hit the light spotlight spin cast on him Morris the owner of Twitter and he's replatforming Nazis so if you're if you're going to change a kind of institution you take over it could be the GOP could be Twitter you have to watch who is being degraded or forced out and who is being brought in and so what Musk has done is he you know he's has been he restored most of them he resuspended the accounts of anyone who criticizes him that's an authoritarian they can't stand to be criticized he's replatforming dangerous Nazis like Andrew Anglin and really trying to make Twitter which is the premier you know social media platform for politicians and disaster relief experts and you know and diplomats into a an engine of far-right radicalization I'm very convinced of that and so are people who study disinformation and and and so his that part of his personality has really come out but there's also people who revere him because he's been a visionary and that too however you know fascism always had a technocratic aspect this modernization and part of why these Mussolini and Hitler and have been appealing to people and Erdogan keeps it up he has grand infrastructure projects they all want to change the face of their country and make it more respected in the world and so also be very futuristic and technocratic and so Musk has that side to him which is the side we knew but he his ideas about you know demographic crisis when he says things like we have to save civilization these are rooted in fascist ideology so I have called him on Twitter a fascist troll he has trolled me anyone who criticized him comes in for you know kind of that kind of treatment which is not what not what an impartial owner of a social media platform should do now you talked about the rise of authoritarian is it authoritarianism globally are these people working together that's a that's an interesting question they mean there are when when Putin and she in fall of 2021 appeared together and talked about the new era of multi polarity this was a big sign of a geopolitical shift and and and led to Putin being able to you know feel he could attack Ukraine so they do work together there are famous alliances often very stormy such as you know Hitler and Mussolini and Hitler and Stalin and Hitler invaded both of their his allies countries but they also learn from each other and so it that's very interesting to see how they watch each other so Trump there's a reason you know who does he talk about positively as a role model he talks about Xi Jinping because the fantasy is being in power and never having to leave he talks about the Chinese justice system or you can get an execution in just a few hours you know no bothering with due process and and both scenario there's a reason that January 8th insurrection in Brazil closely followed the January 6th and Steve Bannon and Jason Miller and other Trump people they're all very close so one of my points I'm trying to you know educate people is and it's it's scary but the GOP is not just trying to wreck democracy at home it's really embedded and part of these far-right networks all over the world and they're learning from each other so the GOP is learning from Orban and DeSantis is openly mimicking Orban in Hungary who's an autocrat in Hungary so they are learning and we can watch my my first book was about the fascist networks of Hitler Mussolini and places they conquered and it's been really weird to see this happening again in the 21st century and following that and following those ties truth I wish we had a lot more time and and I'm sure I definitely would like to continue this discussion but one last question what what role does the Fox News Network play in this whole rise of fascism in this country yeah I just published two days ago in Lucid my newsletter an essay that's trying like many people to work out how how do we talk about Fox you know what is it because it's not certainly not a news network it's kind of the it's a far-right radicalization machine it's an indoctrination machine it's also a kind of propaganda arm of the GOP although it is the king in the sense that it will back certain people like it back Trump because it thought that Trump would rightly bring it ratings and profits but now it's transferring its love to DeSantis which is very dangerous for us and and so it's we can't we have to use an authoritarian lens to think about the activity of somebody like a demagogue like Tucker Carlson one of the most dangerous people in America for sure who who also is routinely praising all the autocracies over the world that's why I'm going back to the we have to see America as they're trying to realign America with autocracies and not democracies anymore so those are some thoughts about that all right Ruth Ban Geass she's a professor of history and Italian studies at NYU she's her latest book is strong and loosely to the present you can subscribe to her newsletter Lucid which I do and I really appreciate the information on that Ruth I would like to go on but we got to get some nurses on because the nurses are having a rally up here we got we got our local struggles we got a deal with too so we're sure thank you very much for being on the show this morning thank you