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Madison: A Climate Haven? with Richard Keller and Sumudu Atapattu

What is a climate haven? They are seen as places with an abundance of freshwater that are cooler on average, and would benefit from milder winters. Wisconsin, and Madison in particular seem to fit that bill. This CBS News piece, holds Madison is stark contrast to Paradise, California which burned to the ground in 2018. Madison is toted as a place safe or even benefiting from climate change. In her recent piece There will be no “climate haven”, Tone Madison News and Politics Editor Christina Lieffring writes that these narratives create "a false sense of security." Lieffring hosts today's A Public Affair and speaks with Professors Sumudu Atapattu and Richard Keller about the complex issue of climate-based displacement. Keller is the author Fatal Isolation: The Devastating Paris Heat Wave of 2003, and he argues that heat, even in cooler climates, can have drastic and deadly consequences when the infrastructure is not ready. Atapattu, author of UN Human Rights Institutions and the Environment, offers that globally developing nations are disproportionately impacted by the rise in temperature, sea level, and natural disasters. She press that we must be prepared to relocate populations whose homes will become inhabitable.

Broadcast on:: 17 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: other

Hi, I'm J. Day Siri Ramos. I am the producer of a public affair Did you know you can find our show anywhere you get podcasts? Just search a public affair wherever you like to listen and you'll never miss an episode Good afternoon, and welcome to a public affair. I'm Christina left ring news and politics editor at tone Madison The first time I remember hearing an official discussion on climate havens, which are austencibly places that will be less impacted by climate change was when Wisconsin senator Ron Johnson brought it up during a Senate hearing calling it quote-unquote good news and That for Wisconsin quote global warming will actually be beneficial unquote, so I was immediately skeptical While there is a kernel of truth to the climate haven narrative and we will get into that in our conversation It is problematic on so many levels so we're going to dig in and to help me we are joined today by a sumadou apathu Director of the Global Legal Studies Center at UW-Madison and executive director at the UW-Madison human rights program thank you for joining us and Richard Keller professor and chair at the Department of Medical History and bioethics at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Thank you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me All right. Well, so first off, can we start with the concept of a climate haven? What does it mean? And is there a little bit of truth to it? Richard, do you want to go first? Sure, I think it's essentially the idea that these are places that have abundant supplies of fresh water Places that are cooler on average than than most and places where there's a vague sense that if the temperature were to warm Then that's ultimately a good thing. It makes winters milder Summers aren't that intense and so if they warm up a little bit, it's not the end of the world I think that's the general notion And sumadou I think that this you know conversation gets brought up a lot in the context of the United States in Europe Um from a global perspective. Can you talk a little bit about uh climate havens and what exactly does that mean? So um as Richard pointed out, um, climate climate havens are where um, it's um more conducive for people to live um but As we know climate change is a global problem. No Place on earth will be spared the consequences. So some places might become better than others uh for people to live but a lot of places are going to become impossible to live as well and one particular Challenge is with regard to small island states um which are barely above um sea level and with sea level rise and extreme weather events that they are already experiencing Uh, we need to decide as an international community where these people are going to go um So recently, um to all do a small island state in the pacific Signed an agreement with australia to accommodate some of the people who will be affected by climate change So we might see some of these agreements coming, um through Uh, but as I said, no country will be spared the consequences of climate change Right, and I mean one point it one problem with the climate haven narrative Which you pointed out is that it also downplays the impact that climate could have in regions particularly like, Wisconsin Um, for example, Richard we spoke for a piece that I wrote in tonemanneson and you pointed out that northern cities Have a history of being impacted by by heat waves. Um, can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure a number of the most devastating heat waves we've seen in the past 20 or 30 years have struck in climates that we might typically imagine as colder than average Uh, so in 1995 there was a terrible heat wave in chicago that killed north of 700 people in just three days Uh in paris in 2003 over a thousand people died in less than two weeks Uh from an extreme heat wave that august in moscow in 2010. There were thousands of deaths Uh due to extreme heat and these are places that I think we typically might imagine as as colder than average, right? Um, so you know, essentially Northern cities or uh cooler cities are typically built to withstand cold and not built to withstand heat Uh, so with the changing climate comes increased risk in summertime Right you wrote a book about uh the paris heat wave in particular. It's called fatal isolation Um, why did you want to look into what happened in paris? And can you talk a little bit about how like you you you you talk about how age Architecture and isolation compounded one another and made that heat wave so deadly Sure. I mean heat waves are at their very origin meteorological events, but their effects are primarily so are primarily due to social factors Uh things like changing demographics, uh things like income inequality Uh things like the built environment. So all of these things have a profound impact on uh uneven gradients of vulnerability Uh during these kinds of crises and you see this certainly with floods and hurricanes and other kinds of extreme weather events as well Um, they might play out differently in different cases, but um, you know, certainly all those factors are really critical in lots of meteorological Events, um, I became interested in the 2003 event Uh because I was there in the summer of 2003 doing research on a different project Uh, I was not there for the august event, but I was there for the june and july heat waves that preceded it Um, which were primarily nuisances, but they were just awful to experience Um, but then uh when I came home and saw these staggering rates of mortality Uh coming out in august, I just couldn't believe that number one the heat was still continuing I thought it would have to break soon Uh, but also just These unbelievable levels of mortality. This is the worst meteorological disaster in contemporary french history Killing 15,000 people across the country in just two weeks Yeah, and can you talk a little bit about how the architecture particularly of paris um, and You know the age of the people who who died and their isolation how that those factored into why that was so deadly Sure paris is a city that was fundamentally rebuilt from the ground up in the mid-19th century With a very particular style of architecture where there are these kinds of attic spaces in most of these six and seven-story buildings That are just that kind of classic streetscape of paris And in those tiny attic apartments, these were originally for domestic servants to live in Um, and now those spaces are increasingly occupied by students or Other people who don't have a lot of financial resources And increasingly by the old by older citizens who are very poor and who have aged in place in in these structures For a very long time. These are tiny apartments. They're about 90 square feet They typically have one window. So there's no possibility for cross ventilation There's of course no air conditioning and most of these buildings and it would be pretty useless in these tiny spaces under A zinc roof as well. So in the summer they become virtual furnaces And while students may be able to escape those conditions, you know go out of the apartment go to a park Go see friends go to a movie When people are older and are suffering increasingly from age-related disabilities Becomes increasingly difficult to climb down the stairs And and leave their apartments and so there were you know thousands of people Across the country and many hundreds in paris who died alone in their apartments as a function of these factors Yeah, and um what kind of prompted me to write this piece In the first place and it's called there will be no climate haven it's at tone mannison.com Um, it was just my lived experience here in wisconsin every apartment Um that i've lived in or that my friends have lived in You know, they're great during the winter. They're very nice and cozy, but in the summer they are Awful, um and not even when it's a heat wave even when it's like the high 70s Like you're baking in in these wisconsin apartments and you pointed out that You know heat related illness is on the rise in wisconsin and we might not even know the full scope of it Absolutely every summer sees increasing numbers of people admitted to hospitals for heat related illnesses Uh, my colleague jonathan pats and the nelson's dispute for environmental studies has documented this extensively Um sumadou, uh, so we've been talking mostly about these kind of Places that are considered cooler. How are heat waves affecting? Areas that are already known for extreme heat Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it's as I said some places are becoming impossible to live and India had the summer uh, uh, heat wave Uh, and several people died. Um, I don't know the exact number, but you know, uh, this is becoming A really big problem. Um in developing countries where resources are limited Um, the infrastructure is already bad to begin with Um, many places don't have their conditioning and even if they don't even if they have Many people cannot afford it. Um, I was in Sri Lanka this summer and without air conditioning, I couldn't sleep Uh, but not a lot of people had that luxury. So, um, even places that were conducive and Sri Lanka doesn't get that hot Uh, but you know, uh, uh, I can see how These things feed into the health of the people, uh, on a day to day basis, especially mental health If you don't get a good night's sleep, um, you know, on days on end, uh, how can you function? Right? Um, So places that were conducive. I mean, we haven't talked about sea level rise, uh, in relation to uh, climate havens or climate Movement. Um, I mean, you know, a lot of people pay to have a beach house, right? But that's going to be Um, not a very, um, nice place to live anymore if your house is getting flooded or you are subjected to, uh, these severe weather events So, yeah, it's it's becoming a big problem and many people Um, cannot actually move even if they want to Uh, because of, you know, mobility issues, poverty Social norms and things like that. So in as much as we pay attention to climate movement We also need to pay attention to these trapped populations Who are unable to move even if they want to You're listening to a public affair on community radio w or t 89.9 fm We're talking about the idea of climate havens is wisconsin a climate haven What does that mean? And how and should we be thinking of it that way as we face the climate crisis My guess today are sumadou apasu and richard keller from uw madison If you'd like to join the conversation, uh, please feel free to give us a call at 2 5 6 2 0 0 1 Um, sumadou in your 2023 book un human rights institutions and the environment You analyzed how un human rights institutions and mechanisms have tried to adapt to climate change Can you talk about that intersection between climate change and human rights? Sure. I mean, um, if you look at the consequences of climate change starting from, you know, the severe weather events um all the way down to You know, the impact on agriculture we and the resultant impact on right to food and water. We know that Uh, water scarcity is going to increase. Um, There will be an impact on, uh, go to food and things are food crops and things like that Uh, we talked about the health impacts, um, and one of the with increased temperatures We will see, uh more vector bone diseases like malaria and dengue in temperate countries Already we are witnessing, um Uh, the impact of the best dial virus, um, there were two deaths in Wisconsin this summer Um, the mental health impacts, um, and as we talked about people are dying So it's not hard to see the impact on people and their rights, uh, from right to, uh, life, uh, to freedom of movement Um, and things like that. The reason why I looked at, um, the link between how u and human rights institutions have addressed these issues is that the mandate of these human rights institutions does not include environmental issues or climate change, uh, because this, um, uh, human rights treaties were adopted at a time when Uh, climate change was not a big, um, challenge, um, but these human rights institutions are increasingly, uh, being faced with, um, the intersection of human rights and climate change because climate change, um, Has a huge impact on the enjoyment of rights. So I wanted to see how these institutions, um, addressing These new challenges that are emerging in the environment field and how they're adapting They are, uh, mandate to address those challenges Right and it seems particularly relevant, uh, for you know, when we've been talking about, uh, uh, climate change within a US or European context where people can move within, um, a boundary, um, within the United States or within the European Union to get to, um, a quote unquote climate haven, but there are many countries where they will not be able to access those kinds of areas. So then that leads into questions about like, how do we, how do we think about that kind of, uh, international migration? Yeah, absolutely. And we know that states are getting increasingly paranoid about national security and rightly so. I mean, there are lots of challenges to national security. So states are really, um, Choosing who they want to, um, uh, admit to their hatred, um, and under international law, climate refugees is not a category that's recognized yet. There are some positive signs right now, but Under the Geneva Convention on Refugees, you have to establish persecution based on certain factors like race, religion, etc. Um, So right now we've somebody seeking refugee status based purely on climate change, they, their application may not succeed. Again, it depends on the country. And then, as I said, there are some positive signs where the UN has recognized that in extreme cases, climate change could pose a threat to a right to life that you should not send people back to face that danger. Um, but, um, not a lot of countries recognize that including the US US has very clearly said that they don't recognize climate change as a threat to, uh, human rights yet, uh, or as a basis for, uh, refugees. So yes, uh, national security is a big issue and freedom of movement is restricted. So where do people go then, right? That's a big challenge, um, that a lot of people are facing when we talk about climate migration. Right. And I mean, immigration, uh, has become a contentious topic in the US and also in Europe and has, um, kind of sparked a rise of our right movements. I mean, how does that factor into trying to address climate inequities and particularly climate migration? Yeah. Unfortunately, this has become a very political issue, not a humanitarian issue. And I think we need to look at this change mindset and look at this as a humanitarian problem. And millions of people, if not billions, will be forced to move as a result of climate change. And people are already moving, as we know, and there are communities within the US itself, that are awaiting relocation, relocation of being, being moved because of climate change. Um, so the problem is going to increase, not decrease and, um, and people will move whether there is a legal framework or not, as we have seen, uh, in relation to many of the conflicts that are happening. If, you know, the situation is dangerous, people will move. Uh, so I think, uh, being proactive and, um, knowing that this is going, this is only going to increase, I think we need to put some measures in place to address the situation and also not inflame the rhetoric that we see in relation to immigration, especially in this country, because many of these people, um, clean war or war-like situations triggered by climate change as well. So we need to be aware of that. When you say that we need to put some measures in place, do you have specific examples that you would like to point out? Um, so, uh, funding is a big issue. Obviously, um, as I mentioned, there are several communities in Alaska that are, uh, awaiting relocation. Um, and one of the big questions is, you know, who is going to pay for the relocation. These are actual villages and communities that have to be more not just one or two families. The other issue, of course, is these are indigenous peoples for whom land is very important. It's part of their culture. So you can't just move them somewhere else, um, and hope that they'll thrive. So we need to pay attention to that aspect as well. So the community in Louisiana that, uh, that's being relocated to the mainland did get federal funding. Um, many didn't want to leave, but it was too dangerous for them to stay where they were. Um, so paying attention to the, uh, the community in question, uh, their cultural practices and pride in funding. I think, um, three things that we can actually, um, do right now, actually, without, uh, making the situation worse. Right. And, um, bringing up the funding that also brings out the, up the kind of inherent inequity in a solution like climate havens, because for a lot of the people who are being impacted by climate, um, they are not the people, they are the people who contributed the least to, to the, the carbon that has caused this issue in the first place. Um, and this was something that Richard, you brought up in our conversation was that, you know, this idea of climate havens, it's a solution. You said something like that. It's a solution for people who already have several solutions at hand because they have the resources to kind of pack up and, and move. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure. Um, essentially, if people who are living in, say, Phoenix or Houston or, you know, any of these cities in the United States that have been among the fastest growing cities in the country in the past 20 years, um, who, if they have the means to pick up and move, um, very often they'll also have the means to basically implement climate adaptation in place. So they'll have access to air conditioning. They'll have access to other kinds of resources that will allow them to withstand a changing climate, at least more effectively than those who are the most vulnerable. Um, and those are the people I'm really most concerned about. When we see, you know, heat related mortality going up in a city like Phoenix, which this year has had a hundred days over, in a row, over a hundred degrees. Um, you know, the climate mortality that's happening in a place like Phoenix is linked mostly to an expansion of the population at risk. Uh, these are migrant workers. These are people who are perhaps undocumented. Um, people who don't have the resources to, to, to, to simply pick up and move, uh, to Wisconsin or Michigan or Minnesota. Yeah. And, um, you know, the people who do have the resources and who can pack up and move to a place like Wisconsin, I mean, they would have the resources to also displace low income Wisconsin nights who already live here. Would you say that that's, that's accurate? Uh, that's certainly a possibility. Yeah. Um, if you're, if you've just joined us, you're listening to a public affair on community radio station, W. O. R. T. 89.9 FM. I'm Christina Leffering, News and Politics Editor at Tone Madison. And we are talking about climate havens. And, uh, is that narrative helpful or harmful? My two guests today are U. W. Madison, Professor, Sumidoo Apathu and Richard Keller. If you'd like to join the conversation, please give us a call at 608-256-2001. Um, when we talk about climate change in areas like Wisconsin, one thing that comes up is that our winters will become warmer. And this is sold as like a positive, um, that you won't have to suffer through a Wisconsin winter if you come up here. But you pointed out that Richard, that, uh, those impacts could actually be much more complicated than just warming. Sure. Well, all of us, I think, might not mind milder winters, uh, at least, you know, here, here and there. Um, you know, the thing about climate change is it's super unpredictable. And so it's unclear whether a warmer winter will mean a snowier winter, uh, or whether it will mean a drier winter. Uh, all of those things have downstream effects for agriculture in the state or, uh, mosquito season, even. The Washington Post had a piece about a month ago on lengthening mosquito seasons. And basically everywhere in the United States, but Texas is going to see longer mosquito seasons. That means not just a few more weeks of this nuisance of having mosquitoes around, but it also means more time for them to breed. And so that means an expanded mosquito population as well. So there are all these kinds of unpredictable effects that we just don't know how they're going to play out. Yeah. And one of the fact that we're, that we're starting to see is the way that it affects rainfall. Um, we're starting to see that, and my understanding of this, and you're, you're more of a climate scientist than I am, but is that like with higher temperatures, um, clouds are able to hold more water, more evaporation builds up into, into bigger clouds. And so then when they break, they move more slowly and they dump more rain, but in just a smaller area. And so, you know, areas that don't get that rain are more likely to experience drought, areas that do get that rain are more likely to experience flooding. Did I kind of summarize that correctly? According to my understanding, I think you, I think you nailed it. Okay. And I mean, one of my questions is, you know, we, we have an isthmus, which is a very low lying level, uh, strip of land in between two lakes. I mean, I feel like there's only so much we can do with, with trying to hold that back with, with the amount of rainfall that, that we're starting to see. Sure. I mean, last summer was extremely dry. This summer was extremely rainy. Uh, you know, it's unpredictable of what's going to happen from year to year. But I think we all probably remember those terrible floods we had in the summer of 2018, when, you know, there were sandbags on Willy Street and, you know, this is something that I think we need to be increasingly concerned about. Um, Sumadou, when, uh, we were just talking about kind of the irregularity and the way that, um, climate change is going to kind of throw off the way we think of, uh, typical climate patterns year to year. Can you talk about how we're seeing that in other areas internationally? Oh, absolutely. And I think Richard, um, summed it up really well when he said it's unpredictable. So if something is unpredictable, a past is not a guide to the future. And that's really worrying because many of our data, many of our, um, actions and strategies are based on what happened in the past. And that's no longer a guide, um, to, um, shape our actions in the future. Um, so infrastructure is a really big issue. As I mentioned in developing countries, we don't have good infrastructure. Um, these extreme weather events, um, a real challenge to many of these developing countries. And I, I knew pointed out the fact that many of these countries contribute at least to the problem, uh, but they're disproportionately affected when it comes to the consequences. So, uh, justice and equity issues really play a role here. If you don't pay attention to that, um, by providing climate finance, uh, by providing compensation to some of the irreversible damages they are suffering, um, to the extent of losing their entire country. Um, so I mentioned the small island states. Um, some of them, uh, will become uninhabitable, um, in 10 to 15 years time. This is what the UN recognized in one of the cases, um, before it, um, that the, some of these islands will become uninhabitable due to the extreme weather events, as well as, um, sea level rise. Um, so it's happening everywhere. As I said, um, there's no place that will be spared the consequences, but the unfortunate thing and, uh, the injustice of it is that those who contribute at least to the problem are going to be affected the most. Right. And those are, those are nations that have fewer resources to try to upgrade their infrastructure to adapt to the climate. I mean, we just saw with the Biden administration, we had the infrastructure bill, the inflation reduction act, which puts a lot of money towards upgrading our infrastructure with climate change in mind. Whereas some of the, some of these other, um, uh, global south nations that are being impacted the most by climate change don't have those resources. Exactly. They don't have the resources. They don't have, uh, the manpower or the, um, knowledge on the technology to do that. Um, so there's, um, it's really important. Um, if we want to sort of avoid any, uh, the, uh, an influx of climate refugees into, um, our countries, we need to make sure that they can stay in their home countries and adapt to these consequences. Um, so, uh, we are actually doing a service, not just to them, but to ourselves as well. Um, because dealing with millions of people, I don't think any country will be able to address, um, any influx of millions of people. Um, and we won't be able to sort of, uh, filter them through our normal processes, because these are not these more to be individual applications for refugee status. It will be several communities coming in together. Um, so I think it's really important to pay attention to climate finance, technology transfer and training and, you know, transitioning to a low carbon economy. Um, so that those people can stay in their countries and not have, not be compelled to move to other parts of the world. Um, you were, you, we've talked a lot about resources and particularly financial resources for these, uh, global south countries that are being impacted the most. I feel like this is a topic that comes up every time there is another climate summit. Um, but my impression is that it just hasn't gained enough traction to address the issue. Can you talk a little bit about why this is, we're not seeing a lot of progress on this issue? Um, actually, um, at the last conference of the parties in Dubai, um, a fund was established to address what is called loss and damage. Uh, the, um, irreversible damages that, um, these, uh, global south countries will face. This is something that small island states have been, have been pushing since the negotiations began in 1992. Uh, took us almost 30 years to get that going. So you can see how slowly, um, these things work. Um, and these are very political issues as well. So there has been some funding that has been on the table, but not enough, obviously. Um, so operationalizing the loss and damage mechanism, um, at the last cop was a major step forward. One of the, um, sort of, uh, the challenges, um, is that develop countries, the global north countries, uh, because they've contributed most to the problem, um, are paranoid about getting sued. Um, so they don't want to admit legal liability. Um, but operationalizing this, um, is a major step forward, but we haven't seen too much money coming into it either. Um, so that's something we need to keep an eye on. Um, and I always say then states, especially global north countries say that they don't have enough money to, uh, spend on climate change. Think about their budget for national security. Just give 1% of that because climate change is a security problem as well. Um, so it's not that we don't have enough money. We're not, we are not allocating it to climate change, um, and reframing the conversation as a national security issue, as an economic issue, I think would help. Right. Um, another reason why Wisconsin in particular is called a potential climate haven is our access to fresh water from the Great Lakes. Um, can we talk about how fresh water access, um, is playing out in, in this conversation about, uh, about climate change globally. Global, we know that, um, climate change will affect, um, the availability of water, uh, especially fresh water. Uh, because, um, with sea level rise, a lot of places we see, uh, more salinity in the water, which will, um, again affect, um, agriculture, food security, et cetera. Um, and we know that humans cannot survive without water. Um, so, uh, availability of fresh water is a big, full factor. Um, so that's why a lot of people feel that places like Wisconsin, um, will be, uh, very attractive to people. We already know that Colorado and California are having, um, water problems. So, um, availability of a large body of water, um, is very attractive, but, you know, that will also be affected by climate change. We don't know the evaporation rate, some things like that. Um, so somebody said that, that, that thing, adapting to climate change is all about water. Either you have too little or too much in some places. Yeah. Well, I know that, uh, Sumidoo, you need to head out in a little bit to go teach a class. Um, I just wanted to see if there's anything else you want to add before, before we say thank you. Yeah, I think it's important to realize that as consumers, we have a responsibility to, especially in the global north, because, uh, we use 80% more resources, especially energy than our counterparts in the global south. Um, so I think we need to, uh, pay attention to that as consumers, because climate change is too big a problem to leave just to the policymakers and the legislators, uh, legislators. So I think we need to recognize our responsibility in this as well. Um, and education place, I think a big role in this, uh, and raising awareness of the of the problem as well as what we can do as individuals and consumers to address it. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, Sumidoo Apatoo is Director of the Global Legal Studies Center and Executive Director at the UW-Madison Human Rights Program and the author of the 2023 book, "U.N Human Rights Institutions and the Environment." Um, so Richard, let's talk about fresh water here in Wisconsin. I mean, it's cited as a reason for why we may become a climate haven. Um, but, you know, the, can we talk about how like, fresh water access might become a challenge under the, uh, as climate change progresses? Well, we are privileged to have lots of access to fresh water in the upper Midwest. Um, but there are, of course, pollution issues that are, uh, really concerning with forever chemicals. Uh, there's a number of reasons why, uh, simply having access to fresh water, it does not ensure water security for everyone. Right. I mean, we're already starting to see issues with water rights, even in areas like, you know, the Colorado River where there, there is water, but it's just a fight over who has access to it. Um, so can we talk a little bit more about, uh, you know, we talked a little bit about kind of the global inequity of climate change. Can we also just talk a little bit more about like, who's going to be impacted, particularly in Wisconsin from an inequity perspective? Sure. You know, I'd love to get to that, but one point that, um, Sumudou made that I'd love to underscore. Um, there was lots of conversation about infrastructure and there's a really boring element of infrastructure. It's really mundane. Um, but one, uh, sort of category of infrastructure that we have that's really good here in the United States and really good in Europe, uh, is record keeping. So I mentioned earlier that there were 700 people who died in heat wave in Chicago that there were, you know, just over a thousand who died in Paris. Um, and the reason we know those numbers is we have really excellent epidemiological record keeping. One of the biggest problems that the developing world is facing is we don't even know what the effects of climate change are like because that infrastructure simply doesn't exist. Uh, and that's a, uh, just a gross global inequity, uh, where much of the damage that climate change is wreaking in, um, developing countries is simply invisible. Yeah. Um, I mean, if, if we're having issues with record keepings of even things like heat deaths, we're probably not even seeing a fraction of the, the heat, heat related illnesses that are cropping up. Can you talk a little bit about like long-term exposure to heat? How does that affect people? Sure. Um, you know, heat stroke, for example, uh, is something that is usually a short-term condition, right? It's something where you're exposed to heat for days on end, uh, and over time and with rising temperatures, that's something that's going to, you know, send people to the hospital or even kill them. Uh, so we all have a breaking point, right? Our bodies are naturally extremely resilient, uh, with access to cooling for just a couple of hours a day. Uh, we can make it through, you know, intense heat waves. Um, but this is one of the areas of a really critical inequity. You mentioned living in unair condition departments, uh, here in, in Wisconsin. Um, you know, the problem is not necessarily for younger people or students who are living in those conditions because, again, younger people tend to be mobile. Uh, I'm not saying that there isn't, uh, there aren't enormous issues of tenant vulnerability in younger populations in Wisconsin, but, um, you know, climate is not necessarily one of them. But what I do worry about are more vulnerable populations, people, uh, with disabilities, uh, people who can't simply leave the apartment, uh, on a hot day to go cool off in a park, to go jump in a lake, uh, or to, uh, go to even a grocery store to cool down in the air conditioned environment there. Um, that's where I think we're going to see really significant inequities, uh, you know, really marking their imprint on mortality and morbidity in, in Wisconsin. Right. And I mean, a lot of Wisconsin departments don't have central air. Um, mine at least has a unit, but those units for low income families, they're very expensive to run, especially if you're trying to adequately cool a department that's getting into like 85, 86, even 90 degrees. Um, can we talk a little bit about, you know, how Wisconsin's infrastructure might need to be updated for this, this climate change as we are also like building up new infrastructure because of our housing crisis. Sure. Um, you know, air conditioning is, um, it's a resource that consumes significant energy. Uh, and so there's a way in which, you know, one could argue that air conditioning is actually making climate change worse. Um, but it's also an essential form of infrastructure right now, uh, in the absence of, you know, mass, uh, climate adaptation on scale, uh, at scale. Um, you know, in the short term air conditioning is going to be a really, really critical resource. Um, and, you know, these window units are helpful. They're certainly better than nothing, but they are, uh, again, as you said, very expensive to run, um, extremely inefficient. Uh, and you know, this isn't, and we, we need to start thinking about air conditioning as a critical, uh, resource, uh, as an essential resource and not necessarily a luxury. I think there's a lot of, um, lots of people seem to dismiss air conditioning as a luxury and, and think of it as wasteful. And you know, I think in, you know, witnessing a changing climate with, you know, right outside today, it's 85 degrees here in Madison, uh, in the middle of September, I think it's increasingly going to be an essential resource. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a lot easier to dismiss air conditioning as a luxury when you are able to control your own thermostat in your home. Like even I would be grateful to just be able to set it to like 78 degrees and walk away, but that's not the infrastructure of my own home. Um, so can we talk a little bit about, um, about, uh, you know, we're already facing a housing crisis. Um, how could climate migration and, you know, this idea of Wisconsin as a climate haven, how could that exacerbate what we're already seeing with our housing crisis? Sure. I think that, you know, if lots of people move to Wisconsin, uh, it could be a real boon to our economy. Uh, there are all kinds of ways in which that's a really good thing. Um, you know, there's talk about a demographic collapse in Wisconsin, especially among school age students and what that's going to mean for our university systems. Um, there are also potential downsides, right? That is going to put increasing pressure on the housing market depending on where people move. Uh, people are going to want to move to where the jobs are. Uh, and these are places where, you know, their rents are going up and, um, you know, this is, uh, you know, Madison does have significant housing inequality. Milwaukee has significant housing inequality. Uh, so big population increases in those places might, uh, spark some potential tensions. Right. And I mean, one thing that we're already seeing is that people with lower incomes are getting pushed outside of cities, um, or pushed into area, trying to find areas that are low income because or where that are affordable, because honestly, it used to be that the suburbs were where wealthy families lived, but now more wealthy families are moving into cities. And the sub, it's, it's not really clear. Where is the affordable area to live anymore? Um, and so, I mean, one thing that I've brought up earlier was just the concern about like displacement of low-income people who already live here. And I think this brings up the infrastructure question again, because we don't have a great commuting infrastructure, uh, in Madison. Uh, if we see lots of people moving increasingly, uh, to suburban and ex-urban communities, that's going to put more pressure on our highways. It means more people are going to be driving. That means more emissions. Uh, so there are all kinds of potential downstream effects that are maybe not so desirable. Right. So further exacerbating the initial causes of climate change in the first place. Exactly. Um, all right. Well, uh, if you're, if you've just joined us, we're about to wrap up a conversation. Uh, this is a public affair on community radio station WRT, 89.9 FM. I'm Christina Leffering, news and politics editor at Tone Madison. And we're talking about this idea of a climate haven. Wisconsin has been suggested to be a potential climate haven. Um, my guests are, uh, Richard Keller, and we were joined earlier by Sumadou Apathu. Um, if you have a question, uh, you've got about three minutes to call in at 608-256-2001. Um, Richard, I just want to open it up. If there's anything else that you want to bring up about this whole issue of like climate havens and the potential impacts of climate change in them in these kind of northern areas, even like Wisconsin. Sure. Uh, you know, of all forms of extreme weather, heat gets probably the least attention paid to it. Um, and that's because it's largely an invisible phenomenon. Uh, hurricanes, uh, have these, you know, incredible storm surges, uh, floods and so on. Uh, tornadoes, of course, leave this enormous damage in their wake. Uh, but heat's largely an invisible killer. And perhaps as, uh, uh, as part of that problem, uh, heat is actually the most dangerous form of extreme weather we have kills more people than all other extreme weather events combined in the United States year in and year out. So paying attention to climate change is obviously something really critical we need to think about. Um, the notion of a climate haven as a one-size-fits-all solution, though, I think is something that we might be rightly skeptical of. Yeah. Um, I mean, you mentioned that, you know, the heat deaths are largely invisible. How much of that is just because of misdiagnosis of heat, uh, affected illness. How much of that is also maybe because the people who are most likely to be affected by the heat are also people who are already marginalized. Like we're talking about the unhoused, the elderly, people who are low income. Sure. It's both things. Um, the majority of death certificates, uh, in the United States, don't actually have a cause of death listed. Uh, and heat stroke is something that's really difficult to diagnose retroactively. Um, it doesn't necessarily leave signs in the body. And so if you find someone, uh, who's died in their home, uh, you can't really diagnose heat stroke. Uh, you can suspect it based on weather conditions and based on living conditions. Um, but you can't really retroactively diagnose that. But the other issue, as you mentioned, is that heat stroke tends to kill, uh, and heat related illnesses tend to kill people who are already marginal, who are already disenfranchised and people whose deaths are not going to necessarily make a mark in quite the same way as others. And so that's absolutely a critical part of the problem. Yeah. All right. Well, um, thank you for all the time that you've, uh, given us today. This has been a great conversation. Um, huge thank you to you, Richard Keller and Sumidu Apathu for joining me. Sumidu Apathu is director of the Global Legal Studies Center and executive director at the UW Madison human rights program and the author of UN human rights institutions and the environment, which came out in 2023. Richard Keller is professor and chair at the department of medical history and bioethics at the university of Wisconsin school of medicine and public health and the author of fatal isolation, the devastating Paris heat wave of 2003. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks so much for having me. And thank you to producer Jade, I see Ramos, our engineer today is John and our receptionist is Steve. Stick around for letters and politics, which will be coming up right after the BBC here on community radio, W. O. R. T. Madison. I'm Christina Lefring news and politics editor at tone Madison. You can check out my work at tone Madison dot com. And thank you for joining us. Have a good afternoon. [Music]