[MUSIC PLAYING] From the studios at Boise State Public Radio News, I'm Gemma Gaudet. This is "Idaho Matters." Author Emma Noise is back with her latest novel, "How to Hide and Plain Sight." It's a story about Elliot. She's a 20-year-old woman who has spent years building up walls but also really separating herself from her family. She's hoping that by doing this, she can try and control a lot of her struggles with OCD. Emma is joining us now to talk more. Emma, really glad to have you on the program today. Thank you so much for having me, Gemma. So let's start with this latest novel. I give a little, tiny bit of information about the book, but give us a synopsis of this new novel. Sure. So really the core of this novel. I mean, there's a lot going on with the wealthy, dysfunctional family. Her sort of will, they won't. They relationship with her childhood best friend, Manuel. But really the core of the book is about her struggle with OCD. And it is a variant of OCD that is not often portrayed in popular media but is the version that I have had since I was 12 and that millions and millions of people around the world suffer from. But because it's centered around more taboo topics, it doesn't normally get discussed. So I want to talk a little bit more about that because as I was reading the book and you do write this in the very beginning of the book about OCD and that you have it and this is the form that you have. So talk to us a little bit more about this because as I was reading the book, I was like, okay, I've never thought of OCD like this. I mean, you think about like someone who has to open and shut a door how many times, right? It's those repetitive movements that I think the majority of us only recognize as OCD. - Yeah, and that is absolutely a real and difficult form of the illness. Many, many people, their obsessions and compulsions manifest in things like touching doorknobs, washing their hands, like the things that you see in like the TV show Monk or the movie as good as it gets, like the kind of quirky way it's been portrayed in the past. But I, so part of my, a big part of my struggle is that when I, when my symptoms first appeared, I was 12 and I started having these really sort of circuitous thoughts, obsessions, worries about things that I couldn't move on from. You know, I remember I was in gym class when I was 13 and I was running and I was staring at the butt of the girl in front of me and I had thought, oh my God, I'm looking at this girl's butt. Does that mean I'm a lesbian? And I had never felt attracted to women before. I had always thought that I was attracted to men. But even though there was no evidence other than the fact that I was sort of zoning out looking at this girl's butt, I couldn't discount the possibility and so I couldn't move on from it. And so I obsessed over it for weeks and weeks. And this sort of, that variant of OCD is actually called HOCD and it's people who are straight, obsessing over the fact that they're gay or people who are gay, obsessing over the fact that they might be straight. And there are so many sub varieties of OCD and they, part of the reason that they're not discussed or they're not portrayed is that they don't, sometimes they don't manifest in outward ways. So there's no outward compulsions of, as you said, touching things a certain number of times, washing your hands, those sort of things. It's more internal, it's checking your body for a reaction and it's going in circles, thinking about the same thing, trying to have the appropriate reaction that you want yourself to have. And it's all internal. So the obsessions and the compulsions are there but it's much harder to see. - So would you say it's almost like, as you said, it's internal, so it's like this internal obsessive dialogue, it seems like. - Yes, yes, it's an internal argument. It's, I remember when I was, I remember so clearly the day that my symptoms first appeared and it almost felt like I had a new voice inside my head. That was me, but it wasn't me. It was like this sort of more worried, more anxious voice and it felt so loud and I couldn't turn it off and I remember like putting two pillows over my head, trying to block out the voice, which obviously didn't work 'cause it was inside my own head. I remember running really fast, trying to outrun the voice and it just wouldn't go away. And yeah, it really is an internal argument with what you feel like is between the old you and this new, more obsessive you that has appeared out of nowhere. - So in the novel, Elliot definitely struggles with this and we see this, however, she has also moved away from her family. She's her best friend, Manny, who she grew up with. And you know, she comes home for a family wedding and she hasn't been home in three years. She hasn't seen her family in three years. And why was it important that she is such an isolated character in so many ways, but comes from this really loud, you know, just like larger than life family, but she almost feels like she's been swallowed by them if that makes sense. - So that also comes from my own experience. If you can't tell, I take a lot from my own life. I'm the youngest of eight children and my family is really close. I have never disappeared for three years nor do I think I could because my sister would call me obsessively until I picked up. But I, as the youngest of such a big and everyone is really different, has their own personality, their own interest. It was really easy for me to kind of slip into my head and engage in my disorder. And because it wasn't manifesting outwardly, no one could tell, right? No one knew my parents have said to me since in later years has I become more open about my struggles. They have said to me, you know, we never would have known. We never could have guessed that you were struggling. And that's not because of negligence on my parents' part. Because I was so good at hiding what I was going through. And so I wanted that to be, to be a part of Elliot's story as well. - It's funny. So I'm number eight of 10 children. And-- - No, hey. - I am. And so reading this, I was like, oh my God, she's describing my family. I mean, not the wealthy part, but the dynamic. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And what was, what I kind of loved about the book too was when they all come home, right? I mean, they're all adults, they all come home. And there's a big, and there's a big age gap. I have that in my family. I mean, there's 29 years between the oldest and youngest in my family. I mean, I have-- - Me too. Me and all this brother. - Yeah, and I have like nieces and nephews who like had kids before I did, you know, the whole thing. And, but it's, so reading about this family, it was like, okay, and I think it's interesting how everybody comes home, doesn't matter how old you are, and you all revert back to who you were as a kid. - Yes. - 100%. I mean, I feel that way, do you feel that way in your family? - Oh, yeah, totally, absolutely. - Yeah. - And what's interesting too then, is here's Elliot dealing with this disorder, right? And she's trying so hard to like keep herself, you know, in control, and I put that in quotes. And it's, and she's having a really hard time with that. And was that important to really explore just that inner struggle that she has, and almost like a fear that if she's with the people she loves, that she won't be able to, you know, maintain this control over her life that she feels like she's had? - Absolutely, so when I started, how to hide in plain sight was actually the first book that I ever wrote. I wrote it about four and a half years ago, even though it's my most recent one coming out. It was very different then than it is now. It's gone through a lot of edits and is much better for it, I think. But when I was originally writing it, I was deep in the thick of a really gnarly eating disorder, which is the subject of my first contemporary novel guys girl that came out last year. And I didn't want to include the eating disorder in Elliot's story. I wanted to show that she's controlling or thinks that she's controlling her disorder in a different way. But for me, starvation and binging and purging, those were the things that I did to keep my emotions in check, to keep myself numb. I found that obsession over food really quieted the obsessive thoughts. And I didn't want to discuss eating disorders in two novels in a row. I had Elliot focus very much on work and work obsession. And I have definitely suffered from that in the past with my writing as well. And I think many people can relate to it, but it's just a different way of her sort of reverting her thoughts and obsessions to something else. And therefore thinking that she has quote unquote, beaten her disorder without ever actually doing the things that one needs to do to really heal from their OCD. You know, the right types of therapy, the right sort of acceptance and medication and all of those things. - I want to talk about an essay that you recently wrote and it's really about this genre of romance novels, right? And how it's important to have representation. So let's start with the fact that a lot of your books focus on neurodivergent characters. Why was that important for you to see this type of representation in literature? - Yeah. So for me, books were my favorite escape growing up. Harry Potter, the Twilight series, the Hunger Games, anything that was an adventure, a romance, something that I could really lose myself in and then enjoy the adventure and the happily ever after and all those things. But all the characters in those books, while they each had their own sort of internal suffering, no protagonist in the books that I read growing up was neurodivergent, especially in the way that I was. They were all sort of neurotypical. And seeing these sort of grand stories and these big happily ever afters, but never seeing someone like me getting them, I think contributed to this belief in me growing up that people like me didn't deserve a happily ever after because I had these horrible taboo thoughts that I couldn't get rid of, I was unlovable. I would never find my own happily ever after. And that was some serious rewiring that I've had to do in therapy and in my relationships. And I'm now happily married with a partner who is amazing and accepts me just the way that I am. And I really, I believe that romance is a great genre for these sort of discussions because I wanna show people who are like me or younger people who were in my shoes believing that they are unlovable, they can never find someone that they can find someone that happily ever afters exist for everyone. - Yeah, and I mean, you do that in such a way with Elliot and Manny. And so I just really appreciated this essay as well. When you talk about this genre and why it's so important that we don't have those just neurotypical characters because a lot of novels tend to have that just neurotypical characters. - Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's the same reason that representation is so important across everything. Race, religion, class, creed, everything. It's so important because we need to see people of all types, not just your typical white heroes of yours - Mm-hmm. So before I let you go, a lot of people might not know this, but some might. You are also a well-known TikTok creator. So not only are you a author, you have a very big following on TikTok. I mean, of course, you talk about your books, but you really talk a lot about your personal journey with OCD. Again, why share in this manner? Does it go back to that idea of representation, right? And not being afraid to talk about this. - Yeah. So in March 2020, when the whole world shut down, I was living in New York, and then I was 25, or 24, and I moved back in with my parents. Like many people my age were doing. Stop paying rent, move back in with my parents as the whole world shut down. And one night that month, I remember I was having dinner with my mom and we were having, you know, one of our many deep discussions that people were all kind of turning inward and reevaluating themselves, and my mom asked me, what is the great goal of your life? Which is a pretty intense question to ask a 24-year-old. But at the beginning of COVID, I had had a huge spike in my OCD, as I think many people with mental illnesses saw an increase in their symptoms when everything felt like it was falling apart. And I thought about my mom's question, and I said, and I had been in OCD therapy for a bit at this time, and had started, had just started talking more openly about what I had been going through my whole life. And I thought about it, and I said, if I can, I want to become a voice for people who are like me, people, young people, who believe that there was something wrong with them, who have spent so long in internal torture, and who could have been spared so much of this internal torture, if they had just had someone look at them and say, there's nothing wrong with you, you're not crazy, you just have a treatable mental illness that the right sort of therapy and medication can really help you with. And so when I started doing TikTok, I was kind of just, you know, throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what would stick. And then as I gained more followers, that's when I started speaking out about my OCD, my struggles with eating disorders, everything. 'Cause it was all, you know, in service of that larger goal. - Well, I want to thank you so much for taking time to talk with us, not just about your new novel, but about everything you do to really bring voice to mental health struggles, really appreciate the conversation. - Thank you so much, it is my pleasure. - Thanks so much for listening to Idaho Matters. Voices State Public Radio and Idaho Matters are members of the NPR Network. It's an independent coalition of public media podcasters. You can find more shows in the network wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jamik Adet, we'll see you tomorrow. - The candidates for November are set. - I know Donald Trump's tight. - Between now and election day. - We are not going back. - A campaign season unfolding faster. - Kamala Harris is not getting a promotion. - And any in recent history. - Make America great again. (crowd cheering) - Follow it all with new episodes every weekday on the NPR Politics Podcast.
