RFA Insider
RFA Insider #17: 10 years in Hong Kong: from Umbrella Movement to Article 23
*Off Beat*
Kelis Wong from RFA Cantonese discusses the past 10 years in Hong Kong, and how protests in 2014, known as the Umbrella Movement or Occupy Central, led into subsequent protests in 2019 over an extradition law and then again in 2024 over the passage of Article 23.
*The Rundown*
North Koreans get punished for not saving portraits of their previous leaders as they escaped from their flooded homes.
A museum in France removed the word "Tibet" from exhibitions in favor of the Chinese name of the region, "Xizang."
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
- Broadcast on:
- 11 Oct 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
(upbeat music) - Why the umbrella movement is called the umbrella movement, it was because protesters used umbrellas to shield themselves from tear gas deploy by the police. - Thank you. (upbeat music) - Do you think there's any opportunity for, I guess, yet another round of protests are uprising by Hong Kongers or do you think there's no chance anymore? Who would want to take the risk? - Yeah. - So, because now you have numerous laws that criminalize any acts. (buzzing) - Yo, yo, everybody, it's time once again. This is episode 17 of RFA Insider. - That was Eugene, I'm Amy. And first up today, we go offbeat with RFA Cantonese to talk about the past 10 years in Hong Kong since the umbrella revolution. - And then in the rundown, we have two stories, one from North Korea and the other from France. (speaking in foreign language) - (speaking in foreign language) (laughing) - A sincere distillate to any Francophone listeners out there, but we'll be right back with that and more RFA Insider starts right now. (upbeat music) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - Have you ever wondered how the umbrella became a symbol of protest? 10 years ago, pro-democracy demonstrators in Hong Kong camped on the streets and clashed with riot police. As crowds swelled through 100,000, it became known as Occupy Central. They are demand to elect their own chief executive where Hong Kong enjoys autonomy under China's one country, two systems. So what does the umbrella come in? As police fire tear gas and pepper spray, the protesters use umbrellas to protect themselves. Held up in defiance and defense, the umbrella became an iconic symbol of the protest. So was this a revolution? Protest leaders said they weren't calling for revolution, but rather democracy. They warned that talk of revolution would allow China's leaders who viewed pro-democracy protest as rebellion are reason to crush it. The protests last for 79 days. (upbeat music) - Hello, I'm Beifong, president and CEO of Radio Free Asia. World Press Freedom Day serves as a reminder of the resilience of journalists working across the globe. (upbeat music) The press freedom is a human right, one that is integral to a healthy global society. But sadly, as we are witnessing in Asia and around the world, it is not a guarantee. (record scratching) Last month after Article 23 was passed in Hong Kong, we were forced to close what was our very first overseas bureau out of concern for the safety of our journalists there. - All right, welcome back to RFA Insider. That was our president and CEO, Beifong, talking about World Press Freedom Day, which was on May 3rd. But in the process also explaining that RFA closed down our overseas bureau in Hong Kong due to the passage of Article 23, a controversial security law that critics say allows the government to target dissidents and take away freedoms that it is supposed to uphold. - So we're now in the 10th anniversary of the Umbrella Movement. And this movement first began as a series of protests, which took place in Hong Kong in 2014, over reforms to the territory's electoral system. Protesters saw these reforms as China rigging the system so that it would be able to screen candidates for Hong Kong's chief executive position. - So to discuss the Umbrella Movement, Article 23 and Hong Kong in general, we are pleased to be joined in the studio by Kelis Wong, a journalist with RFA's Cantonese service. Welcome to the podcast, Kelis. - Yes, welcome. Thank you for having me, Eugene and Amy. - Okay, so Kelis told us this is her first time being on a podcast. So welcome to podcasting in general. - Yeah, I'm very excited. And I know that I'm also the first guest to represent Hong Kong. - Yes. - Yes, and also the Cantonese service. - It's been a long time coming. - All right, so let's start off first question. How did we come from the Umbrella Movement to these latest protests about Article 23? - That is a story that I can probably write a PhD thesis about. - Okay, we have 20 minutes to talk about it. So let's try to get the short, short, short version. - Sure, so I guess we have to first go back to the roots of Hong Kong as a British colony. After over 150 years of British rules, Hong Kong's sovereignty was transferred to Hong Kong in 1997. The city was established as a special administrative region under the principle of one country, two systems. So this arrangement documented with the United Nations was mutually agreed upon both by the British and the Chinese government. - Okay, so when you say one country, two systems, meaning the PRC would have one set of rules and then Hong Kong would have another set of rules, even though they would still be considered the same country. - Exactly. - Okay. - It was designed to retain its capitalist system, political structure, financial framework and international relations. It maintains its own borders, its currency, its legal system and it also has its own constitution called the Basic Law. So all these features promised Hong Kong residents significant autonomy and also if it's protect essential freedoms, for example, freedom of speech and the free flow of information and capital. And all these freedoms are seen vital to Hong Kong's identity and it's positioning as a global business hub. - Okay, and so this one country, two systems policy was supposed to be in place, I believe, for 50 years after Hong Kong was handed back to the PRC or to China, is that correct? - Exactly. - Okay. - Or as the former Chinese leader, Tang Xiaoping, famously stated, which is in the European. So which translate into English is that Hong Kong won't change for 50 years after the handover. - I see. - So it was, the statement was seen a promise to the Hong Kong residents but also to the international community that the Chinese leaders did not want Hong Kong to change or to become a socialist city. And it also want to remain Hong Kong as a center for global businesses and finance. - So however, tension grew as Beijing's influence in Hong Kong increased, I would say five years into the handover. So, and then this led to many Hong Kong residents to view the Hong Beijing's interference into Hong Kong local affairs as an encroachment and also as a threat to their promised freedoms. So of course, this growing discontent culminated in events that we are going to talk about today, for example, like the umbrella movement in 2014 and also the reason protest in 2019. I would say the 2014 umbrella movement was really the turning point that people started to see the voice of discontent being really obvious in Hong Kong. So remember, we talked about the one country, two systems earlier on. So under that principle, Hong Kong was, so Beijing promised direct elections in Hong Kong of its governor. And however, what the Hong Kong people got was a pre-screened process that candidates who wanted to participate in the governor's election, they have to be pre-approved by the Beijing government in order to run. So of course, this sparked massive street protest that we saw paralyzing central business districts in Hong Kong for three months in 2014. - Okay, so you're saying that all those people who were protesting at the time, because they saw that if the PRC has to choose or pre-screen candidates for governor, then it means that they would basically never choose anybody who would enact any policies that they don't like. - Exactly. - Okay, and I guess the protesters, again, didn't see that as a fair system and that's why the movement began. - Of course. - Okay. So the movement quickly gained momentum because tens of thousands of students and ordinary citizens join as both organizers and also participants of the protest. So the umbrella movement in 2014, it was an inclusive movement, meaning that it was represented by people from different professions, people of different ethnicities, and also the movement bridges generations of Hong Kongers. - So I guess considering how small it is, I would say Hong Kong is like a very diverse place. Like you always see the cliche description that every writer uses when they describe Hong Kong and they're like, "Oh, it's a place where the east meets the west." - Great. - And at the pearl of the audience. - Yes, yes. - But like-- - Could you say that about Singapore too? - You could say that about like anything. - Okay. - But anyway, with that in mind, I'm curious about the demographics of the umbrella movement. Was it composed primarily of Hong Kongers or did other groups who were living in Hong Kong also join in, such as mainland Chinese, Westerners or domestic workers? - Oh, yeah, definitely I can answer that question. So as I mentioned before, the umbrella protest was an inclusive movement or an inclusive protest. So the umbrella movement was started by 10 individuals. But later on, a lot like the 2019 protest, the people took over the organization part. So there were, because I remember I was in Hong Kong at the time covering the protest as a cup journalist. So I remember at night, I would see the Southeast Asian Hong Kongers who were residing in Hong Kong at the time, they would march in one of the protest sites and then talking about what they want out of this movement. And of course, there would be a lot of foreigners who were living in Hong Kong at the time, they were also participants in the protest. - So I'm curious, you said you were there personally covering it, were you in any situations where you witnessed violence going on and maybe it was a little scary for you? - Of course, but I have to stress that the protest in 2014, it was primarily peaceful. - Okay. - All right. So a lot of people would remember the tear guests. And actually a fun fact of why the umbrella movement is called the umbrella movement, it was because protesters used umbrellars to shield themselves from tear guests deploy by the police. - Oh wow. - Yes, and it was actually the first time since 1967 that the Hong Kong police, first the Hong Kong police ever used tear guests to disperse a gathering crowd. So remember for people who are history, who are into history, they will have to look up the 1967 leftist protest in Hong Kong because it was a spillover of the cultural revolution in China. And then the 1967 leftist protest in Hong Kong, oftentimes are being compared to the 2014 and also the 2019 protest organized by the Hong Kongers. - No, it's good that you mentioned that because a lot of people when they think about these protests, of course, the images of violence are what rings out most in their minds, but you say it was for the most part peaceful. So that's a thing that we should remember that just because what gets play on the news and sticks in your mind, that's not the entire narrative of what actually went on. - Yeah, well actually, I think a lot of the umbrella tactics, but also the later tactics from the 2019 protests where they would learn how to diffuse the smoke bombs or wear goggles and stuff, but that transferred over, I was reading to BLM protests in America. - Exactly. - And then another feature of the 2014 umbrella protest was the construction of a utopian village in the central business district in Hong Kong in central. - And what is that? - So if our listeners were ever in Hong Kong in 2014, then they would remember that for three months, they would, so the central business district in Hong Kong was, all the traffic was brought to a standstill. It was to have stopped for three months. And all the highways were replaced by art galleries, study rooms, sleeping quarters made out of camps at camping tents and then speaking stage and even toilets all made by the protesters themselves. And for three months, the protesters, they maintained all the facilities in this utopian village. And then all the facilities were also ultimately dismantled by the protesters when the umbrella protests ended. - I see. Another way that people refer to this protest was the Occupy Central Movement. So is central a specific place in Hong Kong, and this is kind of referring back to the Occupy Wall Street Movement, which was a few years earlier than that? - You are correct. - Okay. - Yes. - Yay. - Okay. - So it was the heart of all the foreign businesses. - Okay. - So essentially Hong Kong's Wall Street. - Yes, it was essentially the Wall Street and also the Washington DC of Hong Kong. - Oh, both. Okay, great. So Capitol Hill and Wall Street all in one and they're occupying it and that makes sense why they would call it that. Okay. - All right. So I can tell you a little bit more about the umbrella movement. So the umbrella movement ended in failure after three months. - Oh no. - Yeah. So neither the Hong Kong government nor the Beijing government retracted the prescreening of the candidates for the city's governor. All right. So following the movement discontent simmer. So all these culminated and explode into an even bigger fashion in 2019 when the Hong Kong government tried to push through an extradition ordinance in 2019. - An extradition ordinance meaning that so there was no extradition agreement between China and Hong Kong at the time? - Exactly. So remember one country, two systems. - Right. - So Hong Kong maintained its own governance and also legal systems. - Right. - So the courts and the judges, they operate differently from mainland. - Right. - And then also the so criminals who broke the law and wished and were happened to be in Hong Kong they would not be extradited. But in 2019, the Hong Kong government was trying to change that. So the Hong Kong government proposed allowing the extradition of fugitives to mainland China. And this led to widespread fear among residents about the threats to judicial independence and the erosion of the one country to systems principle. We are talking about a formalized system, a routine that people, individuals could be sent to the mainland and subject to the Chinese legal systems which lacks the same kind of protections as Hong Kong. So we're talking about things that are completely different, completely different. - Well, I imagine Beijing would have framed it as saying like, well, you're trying to protect criminals inside Hong Kong by not agreeing to this. And then maybe the other side would have said, well, if somebody wants to be an outspoken dissident against China, then we should protect them. And so that's the two sides of the argument there. - That is correct. And also in terms of criminal offenses, Hong Kong did not have and still do not have, does not have capital punishment, which is different from China. So if you were charged with serious drug offenses in China at that time, and also it's the same as of now, you could be subject to the death penalty, which is different from Hong Kong. - I see. - So the street protests continue for, I would say about six months. - Six months, okay. - It ended for two reasons. Number one, because of COVID. So COVID broke out in Hong Kong about around Christmas time. So it-- - In 2019. - In 2019, yes. - Okay. - So there were already cases. So people didn't want to catch the buck, which was an unknown buck with unknown consequences at the time. - Right. - So that played a big part. And also the second reason is because of a national security law. - Yeah. - Earlier in this episode, we mentioned article 23. Is that the same thing as the national security law? - Now it gets murky. - Okay. - Because the Hong Kong's national security law of 2020 is different from article 23. Although there are a lot of legal classes that overlapped. So the Hong Kong's national security law was a direct response of the 2019 protests. Pass in such a haze that was very astonishing. It took Beijing's National People's Congress a one month, one month, exactly, to draft the legislation, the bill, and also authorize itself to enact the law. - Okay, so when you say it was approved in one month after just being drafted in a month, like that's a very short time. It should take much longer within that with more debate and more input from various groups of people within the government. - Of course, that is one of the contentious part. The other one is, again, it goes back to the principle of one country, two systems. Hong Kong retains its ability to make its own law. So the passage of the Hong Kong security law actually defy the traditions or the one country two systems principle. Because the law was drafted and also passed in Beijing by the National People's Congress instead of the Hong Kong Local Legislature, which is legical, legislative council. - So you were saying that it was made within one month in Beijing and then they just implemented it in Hong Kong. - Exactly. - Oh, okay. So it's clearly then, as you say, a violation of the one country two systems then. - Yes. - Okay. And so Article 23, which Amy wanted to ask me, so is a different law. So Article 23 is under the basic law, which is Hong Kong's constitution. So it, Article 23, it addresses national security, but it encompassed, I would say, broader definition of different acts that could threaten the legitimacy of the Hong Kong and Beijing government. So there was a public consultation on Article 23 legislation and it took place between January and February in 2024. The consultation lasted only one month, actually not even one month, it lasted less than one month. And then it was a very controversial consultation period because it was very short. And as also I mentioned, Article 23 has always been a very controversial bill in Hong Kong. And then after the one month consultation period, the Hong Kong local legislature, the Legislative Council put the bill on its agenda. So the bill was officially introduced to the Legislative Council on March 8th, 2024. And a vote happened on March 19th, which is two weeks, roughly two weeks. And it was officially passed on that day and came into effect a couple of days later on March 23rd. - This has been a very active discussion about so many moving parts, but as you say, Article 23 came into effect in March and that led to Radio Free Asia removing its bureau from Hong Kong, which was the first bureau that opened overseas and you heard our president and CEO Beifong talking about that in the beginning of this interview. - From our discussion, we've referenced a lot of past events like going back to the leftist movement in Hong Kong. And it seems like a bit of a pattern, like when you said the umbrella movement ended in failure and there was a lot of simmering of discontent as there was more crackdown. And it sounds like that's sort of what happened with the 2019 protests. And up till now with more crackdown in Hong Kong, do you think there's any opportunity for, I guess, yet another round of protests are uprising by Hong Kongers or do you think there's no chance anymore? - Who would want to take the risk? - Yeah, so because now you have numerous laws that criminalized any acts of dissent. Since the implementation of the Hong Kong National Security Law and then the Article 23, 249 people have been arrested for alleged national security offenses. 137 of these cases have been formally charged. The conviction rate of all these cases that were charged is 80%. So if you are a Hong Kong resident who have the right mind, you do not want to cause any trouble and get yourself entangled with the National Security Law. These national security offenses are harsh and they're very effective at quelling dissent. - Okay, well, that's been a very long conversation and we tried to digest it all very quickly and so I'm sure people will have lots of questions. So if you do, then you can read a lot of explainers on Article 23 and the umbrella movement, which we have on the ARFA English webpage. I'd like to thank you, Kellis, for coming in to join us today and it was really a great first representation of the Cantonese service. Stay tuned for more ARFA insight after this. (upbeat music) You're listening to the ARFA Insider podcast made by two real life staffers at Radio Free Asia. - If you'd like to send us feedback, there are many ways you can do this. - You can send us an email at insider@rfa.org. - You can comment on our webpage at rfa.org/english/insider. Just click on the episode you're listening to and write your comment below. - Or you can send us a tweet @RFAinsider or visit us in person. - No, don't visit us in person. - Right, don't visit us in person. But anyway, we really wanna hear from you. - So tune in every other Friday and we'll take you behind the scenes. - And tell you what the news really means here @RFAinsider. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Okay, wow, that was a very dense overview, I'd say of the last 10, 20 years of Hong Kong. - Yeah, I gotta say, like, maybe we bit off a little bit more than we could chew here because you can't really condense that much context in history and still talk about things in such a short amount of time. So I would like to thank Kelis for doing her best to try to explain it to us all. And I've come out of it a lot more knowledgeable about Hong Kong. - Likewise. - But on that note, let's start off with a little bit of - Podcast free Asia. - All right, so what do we have on podcast free Asia today, Amy? - Okay, on podcast free Asia today, we have a listener comment that was submitted through the webpage. - Nice, yes, I have to say though, this one was hidden on the main page and not on an episode page. So I neglected to check for it, but it's two months old. So my apologies to the commenter for not seeing it. And by the way, who's this commenter? He's named himself as Eugene's former pod partner, Rob. - Oh, no, okay, so yes, before RFA Insider and before my time at Radio Free Asia, I was the co-hosts of a podcast called Cafe Soul that dates back to 2013 and talks about expat life in Korea. And at the end of Cafe Soul, it was hosted by myself and Rob Awahand, who was another expat who lived in Korea. And we had talked about continuing Cafe Soul even while I was here and he was in Korea. And we actually ended up shifting the format to talk about time travel movies, but that really didn't take off that much. - Wow, that's very niche. - Yeah, well, I mean, all of our conversations on Cafe Soul would eventually devolve into like talking about the Marvel universe, cinematic universe. But I guess not being in the same room, it just kind of killed it off. So unfortunate, but we have remained friends. So I am glad that Rob is writing to us and what does he have to say? - All right, Rob writes, I liked Eugene's singing performance. Can we make requests? I was really enjoying September by Earth Wind and Fire in the car today. So could Eugene sing a few lines from that? - All right, so I guess this means he was reacting to episode 12, where we talked with Barnard News about Bangladesh and then had a podcast for Asia section talking about Zodiac signs and I sang Age of Aquarius, if you recall. Well, all right, Rob, just for your use, a few bars from September. ♪ Nadia ♪ ♪ Hey, do you remember ♪ ♪ Nadia ♪ - What's the other words? - One. ♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah ♪ - Okay, okay, continuing on with the comments. - All right. - Rob also adds, I enjoyed the horoscope astrology conversation and never knew before that astrological signs changed based on the sunrise on the first day of spring. - Okay. - Fascinating. Does that mean people might actually be the sign before the one we have or the sign after it? - Yeah, I think we worked this up before, right? So you and I are actually cancers and not leos because of the procession. So that means we're actually the sign before the one we think we are. - Okay, Rob continues, the idea of discussing Asian leader Zodiac signs sounds interesting and fun, but why stop there? What about their birth year animal based on the Chinese Zodiac? And while we're at it, let's add a few more, which Asian leaders ought to get along best or worse based on their Greek Zodiac sign, their Asian Zodiac sign, as well as their blood type and MBTI, which is all the rage in Korea, right? - The MBTI. - Yes. - Can you explain? - That's the Myers-Briggs type indicator test. It suggests there are 16 different personality types. I think, yes. The signs of four letter code to your personality. So we'd have to test all of these Asian leaders to find what type they are. And that's probably gonna be too difficult. - If you're a big enough MBTI nerd, you can just assign it yourself. - That's true, but I'm not. Are you? - I think what's upon a time I was, but no longer. - I am not well-versed enough to be able to guess exactly what type people are, but while we're on this subject, I know that my own type is INFP. There's a test you can take to figure it out. And do you know what yours is? - I held off on telling you, 'cause I wanted to tell you on air, but not only are we both cancer slash Leos, we're both INFPs as well with Eugene. - Interesting. - So INFP is the moderator, I believe. So we diffuse conflicts amongst our peers, although I seem to be getting in conflicts a lot. But that's just me. So a lot of people, when they ask about this, I like to use this chart to kind of explain what MBTI types are. And this is basically organizing all the four letter types into Star Wars characters. So the INFP, for example, would be Luke Skywalker, which is the main character of Star Wars, right? So you and I are Luke Skywalker. That's really good. I think you mentioned though, when we were playing this, that you don't know much about Star Wars, is that correct? - Yes, I've not watched Star Wars before. - Okay, so there's another chart we could use maybe for non-Star Wars fans who are still into pop culture a bit. There's the Harry Potter chart. Harry himself is not an INFP, unfortunately. He's an ISTP, which I don't know what that is exactly, but the INFP is a character named Luna. - Lovegood. - Lovegood. I don't know who that character is at all, do you? - I think, yeah, she's like the wacky friend of Harry's, who's like a bit of a, a little bit of an air head bit. - Oh, great. But let's get on with Rob's message because we shouldn't talk about this for too long. - All right, so Rob adds the Paris Olympics country name mistake for North South Korea, reminded me of a North Korean culture class, where the professor mentioned that there is so much ignorance about North Korea, that he once read an analysis of North Korea, that discussed the country's founder, Kim Il-sung, throughout the book as Mr. Sung. - Ah, yes, yes. I don't think people would do that so much now, but I think in the past, it was not clear. Like, I remember when Kim Il-sung died in, I think it was 1994, they kept saying that, "Oh, Sung's son, Kim Jong-il will take over." I was like, "No, it's Kim's son, it's Kim-sung." But that happens from time to time, back then anyway. - Anyway, the rest of the comment says, "Anyway, enjoy the pod, keep at it." And love the cartoon portraits in the webpage art. - Okay, well, thank you very much, Rob, for that. So, if there are any fans of Cafe Soul that have made the bridge to come to listen to us, I'm sure you'll remember Rob very fondly. I remember him very fondly, and I would like to thank him for the comment. If you wanna leave a comment, you know how to do that, and we will read your comments on her. But let's get on with the rundown. (upbeat music) - The rundown! (upbeat music) - So, let's start off the rundown with what else a story out of North Korea. And I wanna say that it's not on purpose that we talk about North Korea so much on the rundown. It's just that the rundown is supposed to showcase some of the weirder stories at RFA. And well, let's just say that the news we get out of North Korea is kind of just lending itself to this format. So, I will start this, let's start this story. I got a question for you. In this hypothetical situation, you wake up in the middle of the night and your home is on fire, and you can grab one item and make it out safely. What are you going to take? - So, I was thinking in terms of like highest value at first. So, like maybe my laptop or like my leather jacket. But then, if I'm like really losing everything in my home/studio apartment, I would take my contact lenses because without them, I would just not be able to see for a couple of days. - Well, don't you have like a spare pair of glasses? - Sure, but like my glasses are really thick. So, for convenience, I would take my contact lenses. - All right, who are me? And I'm assuming that my family can make it out alive. I'm choosing the bag that contains all my family's passports and an external hard drive with backups of every photo that I've taken probably since 2002. - Yeah, it's a good pick. - And then, since my wallet is near the door, I'll grab that on the way out too. And not because I'm concerned about like money or anything. It's just that, you know, replacing all your IDs and passports and everything is, that's got to be really annoying. - Yeah. - They have to somehow verify your identity and you don't have anything to do it at all. But if either of us lived in North Korea, we would be punished for our choices. So, in every North Korean home, the wall of the living room must have portraits of the previous two North Korean leaders hung in a prominent position. So the previous leaders are, as we said before, Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-un. - Mm-hmm. - These have to be kept completely dust free and maintained in a prominent spot on the wall, looking down on you at all times. - Oh, okay. - And in emergency situations, people are expected to, you know, save these portraits. Like, you're supposed to save the portraits. You shouldn't allow them to be lost in fires or floods. And people are even expected to kind of risk their lives for these. - Mm-hmm. - So you can imagine, like, maybe you have a picture of your family on the wall or something like that. In this big fire, you're like, "Oh, grab the picture!" Like, probably wouldn't be your first thought, right? - I think I would come to resent those photos if I had to save them over my laptop or contact lenses. - I don't think it would be unrealistic to suggest that a lot of North Koreans probably do resent those photos. But given the way society is, I mean, from time to time people will even have inspections where people will come into the house and, you know, wipe their finger along the top of the frame and look for dust to see if they can get you in trouble for one reason or another. So this, there was recently a flood in North Korea. So people in Chagong Province, which is in the north of the country, they were hit with severe flooding in July. And the government is now punishing some of these flood victims for making it out of their homes alive but failing to rescue the portraits. And that's very unfortunate. The authorities initially swarmed in after the floods to provide relief to the people. And, you know, they're giving them food and shelter and clothing as they, as was needed and then asked them, "So tell me, how did you escape from the house?" And the people there were very trusting, of course, 'cause, you know, the government is there to help them. So they revealed everything that they did as they're coming out. So the government then is using their testimonies against them, at least the people who did not rescue the portraits. - Oh, wow. - Yeah. So, but the government is not completely crazy 'cause if some of the people who barely made it out alive and failed to rescue the portraits, they said, "Okay, understandable, in most cases, you'll be forgiven." It is still not a good thing, though. - Okay. - That's according to our sources. But if they took the time to secure some other valuables or food, but failed to protect the portraits, then they're gonna get in trouble. So one source described how some people tried to save their TV set, which is extremely expensive appliance. - Right. - They're trying to get it to higher ground so that it will survive the flood waters, but they failed to rescue the portraits, so. - But how will they watch their state programs, if not saving their TV sets? - Indeed, indeed, so it's a very good question. So they're also going after people who failed to save their Korean Workers Party membership cards. Okay, so the Korean Workers Party, that's the ruling party of Korea and North Korea is a one party state. So not everybody can actually join the Korean Workers Party. It's a privilege to get into it, right? - Oh, okay. - And if you have party membership, then you get things like a better chance of getting into a better school, a better job. You can live in certain areas where other people can't live. So it's a massive privilege. And the trade off though is that you have to, what you're supposed to anyway, where the party membership card on your person at all times inside this little waterproof case. So that means they should have been sleeping with it, even, right? And so there's no excuse for running out of your house without your card. So when this happened, the people who are just regular members, they were demoted to membership candidates, right? - After losing their cards. - After losing their cards. And then the people who were officials in the party, if they lost their cards and they just kicked out of the party completely. - Oh, wow. - And some of the punishments that you could receive from either of these things would be a banishment to the rural areas. So if you lived in a city where, you know, there's a lot of good commerce and more access to food and education and jobs, now you have to go live in the countryside as a pariah of the state and kind of live out the rest of your life in relative solitude as an outcast, even from that small rural community. - Wow. - So that's a really big punishment. And so the cult of personality surrounding the Kim Dynasty is so strong that the government has been known to lionize people who actually risk their personal safety to rescue the portraits and emergencies. State media reported in 2012 that the government posthumously honored a 14-year-old girl named Han Hong-young with the Kim Jong-il Youth Honor Award when she drowned 'cause she was attempting to save the portraits from her home during a flash flood. So her parents, teachers and youth league leaders also received awards and the school that she attended was renamed after her. - I mean, that is a great honor, but at what cost? - Right, indeed, indeed. I mean, I would rather have my daughter than-- - I'm sure that's what they're thinking as well. - So those who fail to save the portraits also, we have documented cases where they face strict punishments. The South Korea based daily and care reported in 2020 that authorities investigated a woman who saved her children from a house fire instead of saving the portraits. And she got punished while she was recuperating the hospital, she was not allowed to see her children. And I'm not exactly sure what happened to her after that, but it was a really big story that, you know, as far as the government is concerned, she should have left her children to stay in the fire and rescue the portraits first, which, of course, who in their right mind would do that? - Exactly. - Yeah. - But on a lighter note, what have you had for us? - All right, so I will start off with a question as well. - Okay. - So Eugene, when you go to museums presumably with your son or family, what kind of museum goer are you? Are you like the very methodical type who like starts at the beginning and like reads all the placards? Or are you like the chaotic type who just like goes into whatever exhibit first and like breezes through everything? - Well, usually when we go to the museum, there's a specific exhibit that we want to see. So most recently, what we wanted to see in the Museum of Natural History here in DC was the Hope Diamond. So we went directly there first and, you know, saw the Hope Diamond and then continued from there through, I guess, the Gems and Rocks section of the Natural History Museum. - Did you read all the descriptions of all the rocks and gems? - Admittedly no. But we did methodically go through and look at them all. - Okay. - At least. And then wherever that spits out, we just continue with the next exhibit. - Okay. So there's some level of order in your browsing. Yeah, I think I'm quite similar in that like, if it's a subject I'm interested in, like the art museum, then I'll like try and read this stuff. But like if it's natural history or like aviation, I'm just like happy to look. - Okay. - Okay. - Okay, so recently some museum goers at a Paris museum noticed an issue while reading the exhibition text. So the museum was, forgive me, the Musee de Quee Bronley, which features indigenous art from Africa, Asia, Oceania and the Americas. - Okay, and this is in Paris, France. - Yes. - So museum goers noticed that Tibetan artifacts shown at the museum were being labeled as from Shizang, which is the Chinese name for Tibet. - Oh my. - Yes. So this is especially notable because last year the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs started using Shizang in place of the English name, Tibet, on official diplomatic documents. - Okay. - And then Chinese state media followed suit and they quoted Chinese experts as saying like, using Shizang will help, quote, enhance China's international voice on Tibet. - Okay, I wonder though, were they doing this on the direction of the Chinese government or just on their own volition? - Yeah, I wonder. I believe probably they're following suit with government. - Okay. - Actions, decisions. - Yeah, we'll have to look into that. - Yes, we will fact check ourselves. Many Tibetans interpreted this as an attempt by China to revise Tibet's history and reduce Tibet's legitimacy on an international level. So China has this track record of sort of rubbing salt into a wound by dictating how things should be called. The most obvious example would be Taiwan, which competes as Chinese Taipei in the Olympics and other international events as a compromise with China in order to even be allowed to participate in the first place. - Yeah, and here at Radio Free Asia, often we find ourselves in the middle of this. So we refer to Tibet as Tibet and then often we'll put in parentheses in Chinese. This is what it's called. Like if it happens to be a city or a location. In the case of the Uighur region, usually what we've been doing has been saying things like the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, if it's within Xinjiang, but also the Uighur territory does extend outside of there to Sichuan and other provinces too. So it's not a hard and fast rule, but generally when we're talking about Tibet, we generally just say Tibet. So often you'll find sentences like a Tibetan inside Tibet told RFA Tibetan. - Wow. (laughs) - But yes, that's how it has been going at RFA. - Yeah, as an example for Uighur service, a pro-Beijing columnist from New Zealand, Andy Borum, said that, oh, sorry, Uighur, which is spelled U-Y-G-H-U-R, should be spelled without an H as a Pera Chinese government directive. - Oh. - And he went on to say that Uighur, as it's spelled with an H, will be banned from social media platforms and websites in China. So RFA got this great quote from Dilner Reihan, who's the president of the European Uighur Institute, who said, a white colonialist who works for another colonial empire, meaning China, is trying to tell us Uighur's how to write and read our own national name. Who does he think he is? - Okay, so this is still connected to the museum in France? - Yes. - Okay, so there's also another spelling, which is U-I-G-H-U-R, right? So of the three spellings, U-Y-G-U-R is the least popular among the actual population itself? - I think this example, Uighurs took issue with because they themselves said that the spelling with the Y-G-H-U-R was the closest to the actual pronunciation. - Right, which is the one we use at RFA. - Yes, so they found it a bit like a slap in the face to like ignore their own insight into how they should be spelled. Their name should be spelled. And as well, they saw it as like creating division and confusion within the Uighur community. - Yes. - To create and introduce a different spelling. But anyway, these examples are just kind of illustrating the kind of outrage that Tibetans in Paris felt about the museum debacle. And they also took issue with another Parisian museum, which is the Musée Gime, for renaming its Nepal Tibet section as the ambiguous Himalayan world. - So de-emphasizing Tibet in this case. - Yes. So because of these two cases, more than 700 Tibetans and supporters took to the streets to protest as you do in France. And it actually worked to some degree. - Oh, what was the result? - So the Musée de K. Ronley met with Tibetan representatives and they ended up apologizing and promising to properly relabel all the Tibetan artifacts as Tibet within three weeks. However, the Musée Gime defended Himalayan world. And they said they didn't intend to erase the word Tibet, but rather to quote, make the cultural coherence of certain Asian spaces clearer and more comprehensible to non-specialists. But I would argue that using Tibet would be clear to quote, unquote, non-specialists than like Shizang or Himalayan world. - So maybe they should have just said Tibet, Nepal? - Yeah, right. - It's only those two areas, right? - Yes. - Okay, so yeah, I mean, Himalayan world. I mean, you have other countries in the Himalayas too, like Bhutan and also India, right? So it wouldn't be right to just say just Himalayan world to refer to only two countries, right? - Okay, no, but it's really important how you call certain things because the way you say it might be agreeing with one government over another and at the expense of how people themselves want to be called. And I mean, we see that all the time, not just with China, but maybe disagreements between Korea and Japan, how you name certain seas or certain islands or maybe other territorial disputes, perhaps between China and the South China Sea with Vietnam and other countries, all of whom claim the Spratlys and I'm sure call them different things. - Right. - Yeah, but this is a very important issue. So that ends it for today on RFA Insider for Emilia Mujin Hwang and we'll see you next time. - See ya. (upbeat music) - Like what you heard today? It would really mean a lot to us if you would like, subscribe or follow this podcast. You can also share it on social media or even text messages. Feeling frisky? Give us a rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or elsewhere. Goodbye for now and we'll see you here for the next episode of RFA Insider. Sure? All right. [MUSIC PLAYING]