Under the Moontower
Neighbors, Not Strangers
What is really happening behind the scenes to address immigration? What are the challenges, and what’s at stake in creating a fairer immigration system? We connected with Edna Yang, Co-Executive Director of American Gateways, to dig deeper into Texas immigration issues and go beyond the headlines as we approach the November election!
- Broadcast on:
- 11 Oct 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
Okay, well, it's kind of late for a school night for Carrie and I, but we are out at the Eastside Cinema checking out our last guest, Josh Franks, one of his projects out here. We came to see death becomes her 90s flashback, which Josh talked a lot about really having fond memories of the 90s in Austin. And it seems like he's preserved it pretty damn well because this facility is a gem on the Eastside with an arcade and a bowling eye and a single screen movie theater, which was interesting. And it was also wild to just, we were talking about beauty and the evolution of how we see age and that movie really was something. Well, I had never seen that movie, but Carrie had and I had heard of it. So I didn't realize that it had sort of this cult following. So the crowd was really into it, which was fun. But what was really fun to watch was a movie from the 90s on the big screen and kind of be taken right back to everything from the cinematography to the sound, the costuming, even the makeup, like the way that the makeup is done on the actors is so different. And then today, yeah, because I think of the 90s as yesterday, but when I watched this today, I was like, oh yeah, that really was a different time. It's a different era because my kids are now living the 90s, like I lived the 60s. This is Josh's point. Yeah, exactly. Some other time way before me, and that's how they feel about that. And prior to that, we went to the Takariya, which was... Oh, next to Takariya. Oh my gosh, you got to get on that. That was so good. That was a gem. But our next guest is a woman who's been a fearless leader in our community for quite some time. Yes. And we hope you guys liked this episode. I found it very informative, worthwhile. I've thought a lot about this interview since we did it a lot. So without further ado, we'll just get to it. Let's do it. Welcome to Under the Moon Tower, a podcast where we delve into Austin's unique people and places beyond what you might find on a city's top 10 list. Welcome, Moonies. As you all know, we have a critical election here in November. And as we're gearing up, there are litany of topics that are being debated. Here in Texas, immigration is at the forefront of civic discourse. And regardless of your political affiliation, it's important for all of us to stay informed, and given the cultural relevance to our city, we thought that this would be a great topic to get schooled on before we head to the polls. Our guest is no stranger to this issue. She began her work in 2002 for the Political Asylum Project of Austin. Today, the nonprofit is called American Gateways. She began as coordinating attorney for the program and represented immigrant survivors of abuse, as well as provided direct representation to immigrants seeking relief under the immigration provisions of the Violence Against Women Act. Over the years, she worked her way up and is currently co-executive director of American Gateways. Her work is guided by the belief that all individuals deserve access to a fair and just legal system regardless of income. She represents indigent immigrants before the immigration service, the immigration court, and in federal court. She organizes outreach and educational sessions for immigrant members of the community, and beyond a litany of legal certifications and memberships in both Texas and nationally, she internationally holds a BA in Russian language and literature, which is a first out of our guest on our show. She also has a political science degree from the University of Michigan and graduated with a JD and MA in international studies for American University. I can honestly say she's a subject matter expert on the issue of immigration, not to mention she's really just a kind and compassionate human being with an electric drive to make an impact on her community. Edna Yang, thank you for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me. That was such a nice introduction. Trying to get those bios in there. I have to do and guess to have those accomplishments behind them. Oh, that's so nice. Exactly. Edna, we so appreciate you stepping away from your day to day to connect with us. I have had a chance to participate in the American Gateway's annual luncheons over the years with Carrie, and I also did some translation work for you guys back before the pandemic. I really been blown away by the in the trenches work American Gateways does, both plugging in and mending the holes in the immigration process, but also just really connecting on a human level with your clients. It's been really beautiful to watch and hear the stories and see the empowering change that is created in people's lives that are in really precarious situations when they come here. But before we dig into all of that, I always like to ask our guests a little bit about themselves at the start. So could you tell us a bit about you and what led you to this type of work? Sure. Well, first I want to say and thank you so much for your support for coming to our luncheon for hearing our stories and our impact and for volunteering as well, which I think is amazing. And thank you Carrie for your years of involvement and volunteer work with American Gateways as well. We really appreciate that. I came to this work because I am an immigrant. I was born in Seoul, South Korea. My parents and I immigrated in the 70s when I was under a year old. And we did that because my aunt married a U.S. soldier who was stationed in South Korea. And so she petitioned for my grandmother and then talked to my dad and my mom about an opportunity here in the U.S. My dad and mom thought about it for a while and thought that moving to a different country would give them better opportunities, but more importantly, give me better opportunities. We weren't considered fairly wealthy in Korea. There is a tracked education system. It focuses on a lot of tracking early on. And I think the more means you have, the easier it can be. I think some of that has changed. But at the time, they thought it would be better for me to have an education that was based on not so much tracking, but would also give me different opportunities to find success that they didn't think was there. And so we came through Hawaii and stayed with some family that were located there and eventually ended up in Detroit, Michigan. I lived in downriver Detroit, Michigan before my parents moved to the suburbs for school, more for school issues than anything else. My dad was an auto worker at General Motors and an avid union member as well. So we grew up as a UAW family. And throughout all those years, it was really ingrained in my sisters and I through my family about our experience and who we were and where we came from and how we fit in in this country. And I will say a lot of times, we didn't really feel like we fit in because of language barriers, the way that we looked in the area that I grew up in. There weren't very many immigrants or at least very many immigrants that were of Asian descent, right? And so it was a little bit isolating in that way. And I really gained an understanding of what it's like to be an immigrant, trying to fit in to create an American dream and an American life in places that are sometimes not as accepting, but that also really receive a lot of benefits from the immigrants who are there. And I think that's really guided my work. When I went to law school, it was because I knew I wanted to focus on poverty law or as it was known at the time, legal services. I thought I wanted to focus a little bit more on women's issues and also domestic violence and sexual assault. And so that was really important to me. I fell into immigration because the Violence Against Women Act was recently passed and there was a pathway for women who were immigrants who were abused. And so I found it really interesting to think about that intersection. And the more I thought about immigrants in general and their vulnerabilities, the more I wanted to focus my work on that. Well, having a real tangible experience, I think, gives you some different perspectives about what a life as an immigrant might be like in this country. And American Gateways is really working to address those issues. And we're going to talk about the organization in a moment, but we'd like to pull up and obtain a general baseline on the topic of immigration. Because there are lots of opinions about this. I know this is a tall task, but can you walk us through your 30,000 foot view? What are the core challenges and issues that are being faced in our state and in our country at the moment? It's a light question, Edna. I know. It's a light question. Just a soft pitch to me to start. Take that. It wasn't a softball, I guess. Sorry. Yeah. No, that's okay. You know, I think there are positives and negatives to the immigration debate that is happening now. I think it is positive in that it is at the forefront of everyone's mind. I think it's negative because it has become very politicized in a way that I think lacks meaning and in a way that really understands the nuances of immigrants and immigration and our country and our country's history as well. When we talk about immigration now, I will say it's not a topic that I bring up very often in social settings or with folks that I don't know very well because I think it really triggers this emotional response in folks, which I would say maybe 10, 20 years ago, it didn't trigger that same response, which I find really fascinating. It's become very divisive and this conversation about us versus them. But if we really look at immigrants and immigration and the benefits that it brings to the United States, but also who immigrants are and how likely we are to encounter immigrants throughout our daily lives, we'll kind of understand that it shouldn't be as divisive or as scary as it's made out to be. I mean, I can guarantee going through your day, you will 100% run into an immigrant somewhere. You may not know it. You may not have a clear understanding of it or be able to point out a person as an immigrant, but we have those encounters because like it or not, our nation is one that is created by immigrants and created by immigration. I think part of the problem with the discussion that we're having is two-fold, one, we have a broken system that doesn't really reflect who we are as a nation and it doesn't reflect the changes that are happening globally. We've become more international. It's easier to get goods. It's easier to travel. It's easier to do all these things and part of that also should be reflected in our own government and the way that we interact internationally as well. I don't think our immigration laws do that. The last time they were updated was in 1996. That's the last time that the actual laws themselves were updated. We are currently working on an immigration system that was first written in the 1950s. When you see that and all the band-aid solutions and all these executive orders and policies about how to interpret that old law, you can see why there's so much strife. There's so much confusion. There's so much of this, us versus them mentality. I think that's really frustrating for a lot of us who work in the immigration field, who see what immigrants bring to our country and how the conversation can be changed if we can just change the conversation to how to fix a system that's broken because it's not going to go away. That's a good answer. Well done. Threading that needle. You've had a long tenure at American Gateways and a lot of folks that might be listening to this may not know or have heard of the work they do. Could you talk a little bit about what American Gateways does for our community, what the mission is? Yeah. Well, we provide immigration legal services, low-cost and free legal services and advocacy and education to low-income immigrants in central Texas. We have three offices, one based in Austin, one in San Antonio, and a very tiny one, but that's still mighty in Waco as well too. Our mission is really about access to justice. It is immigration because we work in the immigration field, but our work is guided by the idea of social justice and the fact that if you don't earn enough money to have an attorney to navigate an incredibly complicated system that shouldn't stop you from being able to receive good legal advice, from being able to go through an immigration process that's difficult without representation. Sadly, the vast majority of immigrants do go through that process without representation, and I think it causes a lot of heartache and pain to a lot of individuals who are separated from families who aren't able to really present their case in a way that's meaningful and to end up with negative results when if they had an attorney, they would have positive results. I think studies have shown if you are non-detained, you're three times more likely to win your case if you're represented. If you're detained in an immigration detention center, you're 10 times more likely to win if you have representation. And so we work to really level that playing field for people who are very low income, because we very much believe that everyone has the right to access that justice system in the same way. The organization was founded in the '80s to help individuals who are fleeing persecution in Central America when there were civil wars and people were being targeted during those civil wars, and that mission has continued to this day. And now we help not only individuals who are fleeing persecution and torture from all over the world, but also survivors of family violence, survivors of sexual assault, survivors of human trafficking, folks who really need humanitarian support and access to a system that's fair and equal. And when you talk about the services without getting too much into the legalities, what does that look like for people in the community? If they see American gateways, what is the service? Kind of twofold, it would be coming to get general information about what's happening in different policies, not only locally and statewide, but also federally and nationally and what they can qualify for, and then seeking representation. And then we also have a community outreach component where we go out and we speak to not only immigrant communities, but non-immigrant communities, US citizens, folks who are here with all kinds of different statuses, just to talk about immigration, because we think having conversations about what our immigration system is, what's currently happening, really counters some of the rhetoric that's being thrown around and some of the ideas about who immigrants are, what they're here to do, what their, I guess, motivations are, and hearing real stories from people, I think is very compelling as well. So we try and educate the community at large while also providing direct representation to folks who are detained, they're seeking asylum before the immigration court, and they're applying for other types of protection and relief to stay here with their communities and their families. You mentioned the rhetoric, obviously this is highly politicized, most recently as you mentioned, it's an often polarizing topic as you mentioned. I've always been curious about the myths and the reality, and it would like you to hit on that just a little bit more, particularly as it pertains to our state. We see some of these things on the news, we see these things in our bubbles, your organization is really boots on the ground and really does understand I think the realities of what is and what isn't. Can you talk about some of the myths as it pertains to the border, and even federally if there are some that you're seeing now with policy and some of the updates given the election coming up? Yeah, I mean, I think there are myths that like immigrants are here, like they've been thrown out for years and years, right, that like they're here to take jobs, they don't do anything to help, they come to get on welfare and all of these different things and unfortunately I will say a lot of them are race space, which is really sad to see, but it is also very telling about our history as a nation and the racism that is structurally embedded in our history and some of our current processes. Immigration is no stranger to that racism as well. But I will say the vast majority of immigrants who are here help our economy. So in Austin alone, 14% of the population are immigrants. So 14% of that population bring in millions of dollars in state and local taxes and sales taxes and federally they bring in billions of dollars because of the work that they do and the taxes that they pay, whether they're documented or undocumented. I think there's this idea of like, oh, well, those are just the people who actually have their green cards and they're doing things because they're here legally, but people who are here without status also feed into our economy. It's important to recognize that and not fall into also this idea of good immigrant versus bad immigrant because let's be honest, immigrants are people and there's a whole variety of people who are out there. Just like all US citizens aren't wonderful people, like all immigrants aren't terrible people. They're just people that have their flaws and the vast majority of them are trying to do the best that they can. They generate work, they generate dollars for our economy and they come in and do a lot of the work that people don't want to do nowadays or they find it too difficult to do. So some of those myths about taking jobs, things like that, aren't really valid or true. I think that a lot of the rhetoric lately has been less about some of those economic things but more about stoking fear. We heard some really xenophobic statements about eating pets and doing all these other things during the debate and it was really sad for me to hear some of that because one, they're unfounded, but two, all that type of rhetoric really does is seek to divide us and seek to really say these are others and you can tell they're others by the way that they look and I don't think that's true. It's not something that I want to say is a part of our fabric in our nation but I think it kind of is like people have an idea of who an immigrant is and I think that once we understand that the vast majority of folks here have an immigration background in history, the better off we are as a nation. You could be white and be an immigrant, you could be Asian and not be an immigrant and be born here in the United States and I think we need to reshape our thinking about that and instead of thinking about you look different and so you're an other and you're here to harm me in a different way, think about what are the benefits that we get from all of us being so different and from us having this diversity in the United States. Some of the conversation, not just immigration, has moved away from that and about the benefits of that diversity into it should just be one way and that's it and I don't think that that's right. I don't think that provides for success. If you talk to anyone who knows about the history of the U.S. and what has been the basis of success, you'll see that diversity is something that's helpful and it's always been helpful. 100%. I mean the most recent policy that was put in front of Congress, can you talk a little bit about that and how that shapes your work at American Gateways? Yeah, I mean there's been so much focus on the border and people coming in at the border and what they're here to do about stopping asylum, about how it's too many people all at once. I understand that. I understand the need to want to regulate the flow of individuals coming through especially for those border towns who are the ones who are really bearing the brunt of individuals coming to the United States. But I think closing off a humanitarian form of relief that has been in existence for five, six decades is wrong. Our asylum laws were created because of World War II and folks who are fleeing persecution and harm and the international communities understanding that when you have other nations that are harming their own people, we as an international community have to step up and so that's kind of the basis of asylum laws. It's really looking at people who are fleeing persecution and torture and can't stay in their home and who are just trying to find a safe place for themselves and their family. I think closing the border off to those individuals and saying that's problematic, asylum seekers aren't wanted here isn't moral. I don't think it's right and I don't think that it is something that will fix our immigration system. I think the problem is with all of these patchwork kind of things that are happening or what Congress is currently looking at, it's still patchwork. It's not looking at the core issue of our overall immigration system, comprehensive immigration reform. It's been thrown around a lot through the past couple of decades, but people don't really understand what that means and that means overhauling our immigration system. It does not mean giving amnesty to everyone. It doesn't mean just allowing everyone to come in. It instead means looking at in a realistic way, what is our immigration policy currently? Where are our pain points? Where are their long delays? Where are we throwing money where it's not working? Where should we be redirecting resources and funding? How should we be helping those communities that are most directly impacted, especially along the border? And how can we do that in a humane and fair way that protects people's rights and gives them access to the justice system? And I think if we shift the conversation that way, it's much better. I think anything that's currently up for debate in Congress or any of the policies, the problem with them is they're always these deals, give some humanitarian relief, but also do some harm by throwing more money to militarize the border or close the border off, all these different things that don't actually help to fix the problem. It's like when you see a broken pipe and you see these giant cracks and you're taking little band-aids and just putting them across tiny little holes and saying, "Oh, look, it's okay for now and we'll look at everything else later when it's not so problematic." And I don't think we can keep kicking the can down the road, honestly. I think if we want a system that works and we want a country that's successful, we really have to look at how we need to reform the overall immigration system. So I am so long-winded. Not at all. I'm hanging on every word. Yeah, for real. Edna, I really appreciate your measured commentary on this. And I wonder, you know, you've been doing this work for a while now. If you had to describe something that has surprised you most, what would it be? I think it's the resilience of the people that I meet. It is really heartwarming and uplifting and it really is what drives my work forward in meeting people who have escaped some really terrible, terrible circumstances and who remain positive and who really believe in the American dream and the idea that they can find safety and freedom here, that they can heal from past traumas, some of their families forward. I think the work that we do is really important because it focuses on people. I mean, it's definitely about giving people access to that justice system. And while we're doing that, it's great because we get to meet individuals who are still compelling, who have really overcome such hardships and succeed in ways that are unimaginable to me. Hmm. Do you see that also as aside from driving you in your work, would you say that that's one of the biggest reasons why neighbors should care about the issue? I mean, there's a lot of issues that people are prioritizing right now. Yeah. Yeah, I do think so. I think if we all slowed down to have actual conversations with one another and meet one another a little bit more and also meet people outside of our bubbles, I am also guilty of just staying in my bubble and being real comfortable with the friends in the community I have. But when I venture outside that bubble and work does give me a lovely opportunity to do that, but I try and do that whenever my family and I travel and go to different places to get outside that comfort zone and just really talk to people, I think it's fascinating because you learn about folks from different backgrounds that have different ideals. You might not agree with all of them and that's fine, but you really learn that people are genuinely nice. Like the vast majority of people are really nice people and they want to do good things and they want to have happy lives and they want to be with their families. I would say the vast majority of people, we all have those same wants and needs. And when you get outside your bubble and you start talking to people and really understand and know that, I think some of these debates that are politicized become a little bit easier to understand, a little bit easier to empathize with another person. I don't think that's just immigration too. I think it really cuts across like all of these divisive issues that we have currently. Those meaningful conversations are what are important and really getting to know one another in different levels in different ways. What's the overall thing you hope people take away from hearing you on this episode today? Immigrants are bad. That's a good one. On a very basic like kindergarten level, they don't do weird things like eat animals, like eat pets, you know, like, I don't know. But I think really is that immigration can't be solved by one person and it can't be solved by one administration and it can't be solved by a group in a silo and that's that, right? I think what I really hope that people take away is that immigration involves all of us. Whether we'd like to believe it or think it or not, when we open up the conversation and think about how immigration impacts our communities locally, statewide, and nationally, and have conversations that are difficult and uncomfortable and sit with that discomfort and say that's okay and we don't have to fully agree, but what can we do to ensure that people are protected and that we're having conversations that really move forward change in a positive light? I think that's better and I think that's what's been lacking. There's no actual like, okay, this is uncomfortable, but what can we do to overcome that discomfort or not even overcome it, to recognize it and move beyond it and say, what can we do to overcome these challenges, not the discomfort, the challenges, and come to a point where we can all agree on some basic principles about human beings and about people in general and why we need people in our communities? I feel like their siloed conversation is not impacting everyone. It's like, this is this problem over there, to your point. The more that we all take it in as an issue for all of us, the more we can do to solve for it in tangible ways. Well, at the end of each of our episodes, we ask our guests a few lightning round questions about their favorite local experiences and hopefully getting some insight from you. Are you ready? I am. Well, I know that you're kind of biased here, but what would be your favorite community give back activity here in ATX? Well, I would say coming to any American Gateways event, to learn about what we do, to learn about our impact, to learn about how it helps the community overall and to volunteer if you are so moved and to have those meaningful conversations and kind of get outside of your bubble. That being said, I think there are so many non-profits in Austin and I would say if you want to give back, find your passion and go find a non-profit that matches it because there are so many here in Austin. If you like the environment, go find an environmental non-profit that is like cleaning up parks or doing something wonderful. The school district here has so many volunteer opportunities, the public schools, the libraries. There's a whole bunch of social justice groups around that are always looking for help. I think if you really want to get involved, it's really easy to find a way to do it as long as you know what your passion is and what you want to do. Well said. Favorite outdoor venue or recreational spot? Oh, I like the South Walnut hike and bike trail because it has Go Valley pool right there and I have two little kids. So we go to the pool, we go to the playground and then we ride our bikes for a little while and everyone gets tired and we go home and it's lovely. I will say I also like Guerrero Park for the the same reason because there's a playground, you can get to Secret Beach, there's a lot of little trails and it's just nice to get outside. I like those venues, however, when it is not 105 degrees. Yes. I don't think I've been to Guerrero Park, if you and? I have. Yeah. Yeah. That's one I needed. I haven't been to Secret Beach. I need to go check that out. It's nice. You got to bring a little shade with you, but it is really nice to splash around it. All right on. Favorite music venue? I love Antones because it's small but not too small and then I have a soft spot for Stubbs Amphitheater because I went and saw some of my first shows when I moved here. It's a little different now than when I moved here in the early 2000s but I do like that one too. It's a good one. Favorite breakfast taco? Any breakfast taco from Taco Moray which is awesome off of 183. It's a tiny little spot that I love. I also love Veracruzal Natural because those ladies are amazing and their tacos are amazing. That's still at the top, I think. Yeah. Taco Moray is a new one. Best hidden gem? Best hidden gem. Oh, if you like dancing, Esquina Tango on the east side is awesome. There is a lovely couple who owns it. It's this little venue that used to be a church on the east side. We actually hold our June Fiesta for American Gateways there every summer. They do Tango classes. They do all kinds of Latin dancing classes. They have some live music every now and then. I would check it out. They have different dance schedules and things. It's really fun. Oh my gosh. Totally doing that and totally checking that out. I'm so excited. And lastly, what would be your advice for newcomers to Austin? I think it would be going out and exploring and getting outside of your bubble and talking to all kinds of different people. That's the best way to learn about Austin, the history of Austin, who Austin is and who it's becoming by having those conversations and just going out and trying random things, new things and then going up to people and introducing yourself and talking to them. Yes. That's great. That's why we're doing this. Yes. I know. It's amazing. I love it. And thank you so much. I really appreciate the way you've approached this topic with measure and rational thinking. Something that I think doesn't need to be politically divisive but is just an issue at hand that requires everybody to come to a table and have some civil discourse. And I think that's what you did really well here today. Thank you. Listeners, if you are a lawyer looking for pro bono hours, you can reach out to American gateways and see how you can help them out. Or if you know any lawyers, you can share this episode and connect with American gateways. You do not need immigration experience to help out. If you are bi or multilingual, the organization could definitely use your help for translation services, particularly for folks who speak Spanish. But there's also lots of other languages that you need translation for. Do you want to comment on some of the other because maybe not as widely spoken? I mean, we have a need for French, for Pashto, for Dari, for Kenya, Rwanda, for Lingala. Last year, we served folks from 58 different countries. So you can see how hard it may be sometimes to find the right interpreter or document translator to help us. And we always manage. We're going to do it. I cannot imagine what it feels like to come here. I know people you're serving are coming here under extreme duress, really challenging circumstances back home that they're fleeing. And maybe to not find a single person that speaks your language and then try to navigate a really complicated legal situation. That's really heartbreaking. I will say a lot of them learn English or at least components of just phrases that they need pretty quickly out of just pure survival because you're thrown into it. And a lot of them actually learn Spanish too. I bet that's probably a good source of allyship. You can also help folks go through proper legal channels at citizenship clinics. Please check out americangateways.org. I think they'll take some donations as well, which can make a huge impact on the number of cases that the organization can handle and work with. They do a lot of work in the detention facilities. These guys are working really, really hard. And I know that they would appreciate any support they could receive. You can follow at American Gateways for social updates and stay informed with the immigration landscape in our state. Edna, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners today? I don't think so. Just get out there and get involved. And thank you both for having me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Edna. Well, that was certainly informative and also really beautiful. I've done some work with the organization and you see the back end just overwhelming need and all of these gaps and these holes that the organization, a nonprofit is trying to fix. They can't possibly remedy the whole problem. And it was really nice to hear Edna's perspective on solving for the problem as a society, as a community member in Texas. And I think she said something really poignant that when people get divisive on this issue, they don't realize that I think everybody perhaps really could agree on is that this isn't a problem that needs band-aids. It needs a complete overhaul. It needs a going back to square one and re-examining what the issue is at hand and finding current solutions. The fact that our last laws on immigration were updated in 1996, that's almost 30 years ago, and the landscape has certainly changed. So it does require reaching across the aisle and coming together and really putting brains together and coming up with something that works. I hope our lawmakers can do that. Yeah, I'm with you. I think most people feel that way, whether you agree or you disagree on policy. Everybody wants to get it fixed. Right. Well, I guess I'll be seeing you at Iskina Tango soon. Hell yeah, and maybe even Takamori. Yeah, it's a try that one. It's a double, it's a double, a double dip intro. A double dip date. There we go. All right, I'll see you soon. Okay, bye. Bye. Thank you for listening. You can find more episodes at underthemoontower.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying our show, please tell your friends and follow us on Instagram at underthemoontower. We'd also love to hear from you. You can shoot us an email with any questions or feedback at underthemoontower@gmail.com. Under the Moon Tower was created by Carrie Mayer and Ann Harrington. Special thanks to Evan Sharer for production on our podcast. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]