The emerging win e regions of the world
Adventures Of A Black Belt Sommelier
A conversation with one of the most influential wine journalists, Mark Squires
Mark Spire is welcome to Adventures of a Black Belt from the A. We are honored to consider a privilege to talk to you today. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Can you tell how did you, what was your path from being a lawyer to becoming one of the most influential wine writers in the world? How did that happen? Well, thank you for that description. But, you know, it's an old and bizarre story. And I was obsessed with wine. I got the bug in the early 80s. And I eventually went to a tasting in Wilmington, Delaware. And the guy who was demonstrating 1982 Bordeaux was Robert Parker. And he was holding a big tasting. And I met him. And he signed a book for me. And I go, you know, I really, really admire that you were able to leave law. And he gives me this evil, wicked grin and goes, yeah, I haven't written a brief in years. I thought I aspire to this. You know, he, you know, you think about it, 1969 and '61 were great Bordeaux villages, right? Right. And then then there was 62, 63, 64 wasn't a complete catastrophe. 66 wasn't a complete catastrophe. But '67, '68, all the '70s, the wines just weren't very good. But before him, we didn't really know they weren't very good because there was no information. You just assumed if it was Margot, it had to be great because it was a first-growth Bordeaux. But those wines weren't very good. And they were having a hard time selling them because the wines, they were relatively expensive for the time and not very good wines. And when the ADTs were released, most of your pre-impressed said it was another unsuccessful vintage, right? Yeah. But I think that was a hallmark vintage in more ways than one. It was a riper vintage than some of the others that had come before. The wines were a little softer and richer. They were a little sexier and more voluptuous. And in later years, you could say that some of those trends got exaggerated. But in '82, it worked very well. The wines still had structure. Some people said they wouldn't age. I think they've aged just fine when I've had the good fortune to have them lately, although that hasn't been often enough. Gosh, I have so many questions. Well, so Parker said this is the greatest vintage ever in Bordeaux, which it's not. But I know that they really appreciated saying that because the American public bought up everything. Well, Bordeaux had gone through a really, really difficult time in the late '60s and '70s. A lot of those chattos were in trouble. They really needed to turn things around. And I think '82 was probably where they did. I mean, it's not like I'm the greatest Bordeaux expert in the world. There was a time when I was much more cognizant and went there several times. And then I got other obligations. So I haven't been there in a long time. But I really think the financial importance of that call was just as great as the quality importance. I think he saved some chattos. There were chattos that were facing, they were going to go under because they hadn't been able to sell their wines for a decade or so. I remember reading some somewhat snarky column. And Bob tended to attract a lot of those in which some Bordeaux producer was interviewed. And they said, "This was well into his career. We should build a statue to him, but enough's enough." Well, they might build a statue to him in Bordeaux. I don't think they're going to build a statue to him in Burgundy. Well, yeah, that was another story. But I think his Bordeaux reviews were pretty good, especially early on. Bordeaux has changed. And I always liked the old school. Vintage is better. I liked the '89s, for example, better than the '90s. And I think if you're going to describe the difference in pallets, I think Bob was always more of a '90 guy. He was someone who liked the Riper, more voluptuous wines more. And that was an area where both miniatures have great wines. And you could argue that as one of them was five to midnight and the other was five after midnight. They didn't go too far and they didn't go over the top or extreme. And then you wonder maybe sometimes some things have gone over the top and have become a little extreme in places. But that's a longer conversation and by no means is up on it as I used to be. Well, I didn't ask you to join me today to spend the whole time talking about Robert Parker. Or Bordeaux. Yeah, or Bordeaux or shortly Bordeaux. I will say this. I was in Napa at the beginning of September. I had one of these conversations with Michael Mondavi. And we spent some time talking about the judgment of Paris. And he said that in his opinion, the reason the California wines won was because Stephen Spurrier picked the 1973 vintage, which was not a very successful vintage in the Napa Valley. So the wines were more austere and less opulent and hedonistic. If he picked the 74 vintage, which is a great vintage in the Napa Valley, the California wines wouldn't have won because the French, most of the, well, I think all the judges were French. They wouldn't really have appreciated the wines as much. And in his opinion, that was a strategic decision by Stephen Spurrier because if the California wines won, Stephen would become very famous overnight. And if Michael's right, then that was a really smart thing that Stephen did. But so in the context of the conversation, he invited me out and I went out and he opened the 73, 74 and 75, Mondavi Cabernet from his wine cellar. Reserve, I present. They were, the 74 was magical. And it wasn't the reserve wines. It was the regular Robert Mondavi Cabernet, 1973, 1974, so 1975. The 73 was maybe, it wasn't really tired. It was just, you know, past maturity. The 75 was very good. The 74 was magical. And I asked him about the fact I expected when he told me he was going to do this, that he wanted to taste these wines with me. I assumed that he was going to be the reserve wines. And he said, actually, the regular bottling has aged better than the reserve wines, because the alcohols lower in the regular bottling. So there's more acidity, less alcohol, and the wines have aged more successfully for 50 years, 50 years. Well, I've had a lot of wines from that era. Not lately, but about seven, eight years ago, I had a bunch of 78 regular BVs and things. They were holding pretty well, shockingly well. But recently, I had posted on a '98 pebby vocere, and a '95 lefon roche that I had had in close proximity to one another, not at the same time, but in close proximity. And as I was tasting them, I was thinking, most people would prefer the pebby vocere. Why? Because it's riper, it's a little more youthful, fruitier. The lefon, though, to me, was by far the better wine. It was fresher, had more acidity, had nuance, complexity. Now, I liked both of these wines again. None of them were over the top, it was more five to midnight, five after midnight on the clock face. But I thought the extra rightness did not help the pebby vocere. It made it fruitier and one-dimensional, and it was pretty tasty. But the lefon was so much more interesting, so much livelier, so much more refreshing. I would choose it 10 out of 10. I had a tasting at Stoney Hill, and I assumed that I was going to be tasting recently in Gewerstamener, but they don't make Gewerstamener anymore, and they were sold out of Riesling because they only make 85 cases a year. Though I tasted three Chardonnays, the 2019, 2015, and 2007, and the 2007 was, well, there really was not much difference in color in the three wines. It's astonishing. The 2007 had more rim variation, but the color was pretty much the same, and the 2007 one was youthful. I mentioned that to Michael, and he said he has some Stoney Hill Chardonnays from the '60s that are still beautiful wines from the '60s, so he wants me to come back out. You'll have to come with me. He wants me to come back out to Napa to taste Stoney Hill's Chardonnays from the '60s, which I've got to figure out a way to do. That's too good of an imitation. Were you considered the authority on emerging winery regions from the beginning at the wine advocate, or was that something you've morphed into? It happened by happenstance. Well, first of all, Bob did originally offer me some other regions that were more familiar and better known, and I turned them down. I don't even remember which was which. I could take a good guess, but I don't want to say it because I'm not sure. But one reason I turned them down is because when you've had so many people treading on that turf, and particularly when they're fairly famous people, like maybe even Parker himself, reinventing it is very perilous. And if Bob had a favorite winery that he wanted to say, give 96 points to all the time, and I'm tasting and I'm going, yeah, they're okay, 90 points. That's going to create a big fur among subscribers, among the wineries, among the importers, the retailers. It's hard to really impose your own stamp on that without creating a problem. So by taking a problem between you and Robert. It might do that too, but Bob wasn't that type. I mean, he recognized other people had other opinions, and he was never the type who was going to tell everybody their idiots, which is not to say he didn't believe in what he was doing very strongly. But the bigger problem is it would create a problem with the subscribership, many of whom were taking those opinions as fett accomplice, and suddenly they're not. And it's hard to reconcile those things. And I'm just using Parker as an example. It might have been Robani or David Schill Connect or somebody else. I don't remember what the issue was. But I didn't want to tread on already well tread ground. And so by taking Portugal, I got to admit my own universe. I got to create the universe. I thought made sense for a region that Parker had barely covered at all. He didn't do even a lot of port reviews and table wines almost nothing. And then I took Israel. And again, that was something Bob didn't pay any attention to. So I got to pretty much set my own path on things where I could be plowing the field for the first time. I tasted a wine this best weekend that I wanted to ask you about if you were familiar with it. Do you know a London wine merchant called Whitwomps? They're pretty prominent. I know of them. I don't know much about them. I tasted the owner, Tim Tim, blanking on his last name, Tim, was here in St. Paul this best weekend for a wedding reception. And he poured me a glass of Whitwomps Millennium Fort 1880. It's a Coliata 1880, Coliata. But who's the producer? Whitwomps. It's the Whitwomps. Oh, so they had to be for them. But do you know who had it made for them? He said that he discovered a 2000 liter cask somewhere in Villanova de Gaia. And he just assumed it was, you know, worthless. But then he tasted it and he thought it was special. So he had it, I don't know, I'm sure he didn't ship the cask, but somehow he had the wine delivered to Dirk Neaport. And he, Dirk, blended 5% of his, this is what Tim's, Tim Littler. His name is Tim Littler. Tim, this is what Tim Littler said. I don't know if it's true or not. But he said that he had this wine taken to Neaport and that Dirk Neaport blended 5% of his 1945 vintage port into this 1880 20 initially against Tim Littler's wishes. But then Tim tasted it and thought that Dirk was right that it improved the quality of the wine. And then they bottled it. And they have, he says they have 15 cases left. They've sold the rest. But they called it millennia port because it was, it's from a cast from the 19th century made in the 20th century to be drunk in the 21st century. I don't have any context for what an 1880 Coliata port should taste like. It was excellent. The oldest I've had I think was 1863. But this is a long story. And when you get port producers, this story of we found the casks someplace. Yeah, I've heard that before. That's happened before. Volado found the casks someplace and they made an old 19th century port from it and appropriated it and sold it under their name. And some of the old Taylor's wines, I think were actually from Chrome. I forget, don't hold me to that. But in any of that. Taylor made that, Taylor made that wine, a tawny, they released about 10 years ago that was from the 19th century in a really fancy bottle with a really fancy box and it was ultra expensive. But I think I have more confidence in Taylor flat gate than I do in wetlands. Well, you know, but it comes down to how was the original wines stored? Who took care of it? Did anyone take care of it? Was the temperature okay? And you know, if you have someone as confident as dirt Newport and he tasted the wine and he thought it's pretty good that that's that's a boat of confidence that would make me feel a little better. It was very good. It was very good. I just I I'm sure you know, Bartholomew brought that. Of course. So he's a good friend and anytime I have a question about anything quarter Madera related or Chateau Musa related or Saudi family related, I go to I ask him and I asked him about this. He said, I think there's something sketchy about that. I'm going to I have a meeting with Dirk in February and I'll ask him about it now. If I remember, I'll ask Dirk about it in February and and I'll let you know what he says. And so I have a reminder in my phone to remind Bartholomew to ask Dirk about it in February. It'd be interesting to see see what Dirk says because Bartholomew says there's something sketchy about it. Well, I'm not sure what that means and I'm not going to call anything sketchy all knowing nothing about it. But I should have said that, but that's what wigwama and knee port both have pretty good reputation. So far as I know, of course, I know Dirk very well. I don't know what bombs very well, but I would think they did something to verify this and track down the records. But it had the band it had the seal, you know, so it was sort of pathetic. So that so so you started out with port and then you went to Israel. No, I started out with Portugal went to Israel and then later added port. I wasn't originally doing port. And now now Greece and. Greece and then I did most of Eastern Europe. But you know, when you say I covered the rest of the regions in reality, most of the emerging regions I spent the most time on would have been Portugal and Greece, New York and Virginia. And the rest of the more things that tripled across the desk and even for Greece, the wine advocate did not frankly authorize frequent trips to Greece. So I couldn't do the type of job I wanted to do. I couldn't even get authorization to go to New York and Virginia every year, even though they're close to my home. So you know, some of it was constraints of economics and all wine companies have constraints these days. I was lucky that I could spend a lot of time on Portugal. I was I was going to ask you, have you ever been resentful that you got assigned emerging wine regions instead of Bordeaux or Burgundy or the Rhone or something more prestigious? But obviously that's not the case at all. No, not the case at all. And as I was saying in the beginning, it was more what I wanted. I wanted to avoid duplicating somebody else's work. Have you is Chateau Musaur on your radar screen as part of your coverage of Lebanon? It was and I had some meetings with Broadbent on Chateau Musaur. I've always had a somewhat shall we say contrary view of Chateau Musaur. It's not that I don't think the wines are excellent, but I've been drinking Chateau Musaur for a very long time going back 30 or 40 years. And I was never really sure what to think of them. And I said this to them to their face and it's like every year it's different and I don't just mean vintage variations. The style is different. It has variations. I'm not sure if all the bottles are going to be the same. I have one bottle that's great from 1982 and another that's not so great from 1982. And you know they have a long story of problems harvesting the grapes under difficult conditions and so on and so forth. And this is a story that resonates with a lot of people. And the great Musars I've had are arguably the best wines ever made in the Middle East. That's certainly true. And yet my scores probably do not reflect that. It's not because I don't agree with that. It's because I'm never sure that what I'm tasting is not subject to bottle variations. The modern era is a different question. But when you're going back to 1964 and things like that, you know, under the best of circumstances, that's going to be subject to the old adage of, you know, it becomes about the bottle and not the wine as the wines get older. But that seemed triply sure Musar. I was always very concerned that I represent the consumer. And I think as wine writing has evolved, that's not as clear in some places. But it was the consumers that were my clients. And I didn't want to put a 97 point score on a wine that you just might find impossible to replicate on the next one you buy and get people spending $790 a bottle at auction just to be disappointed. Yeah, you know, that's I tell people who ask me about natural wines that natural wines are a nightmare just to a wine retailer. Because if I describe this bottle that I tasted, the bottle I'm selling you is not the same wine. Because of there's so much bottle variation. And that I agree with you that it's an issue with Chateau Musar. You know, Bartholomew says that he considers Chateau Musar the greatest winery in the world, the greatest wines in the world. I don't agree with him on that. And his father thought they were not the greatest wines in the world, but he thought they were very extraordinary. The interesting thing is Michael told me they can be. They are they can be they can absolutely can be. Michael told me that he discovered Chateau Musar the next vote and told my Bartholomew about it. But Bartholomew says he discovered Chateau Musar at the next vote and told his father about it. So I don't know which thing which really happened. But but the thing I love about Chateau Musar and and there aren't that many wines in the world that are like this. If you taste Musar blind, it can't be anything else. It's not it is absolutely unique in the world of wine. There's no nothing else that remotely resembles it in my in my experience. And I think that's makes it very special. Well, the blend's a little different. I think there are some Israeli wineries now who have started to use a lot of carry on and Sanso and things like that. I think Reconati was doing that and Marcellon and those are interesting blends too. But yeah, you know, it's it's not that I don't think Musar has made great wines. I think they have. And that's clearly so. Anybody who says otherwise, I think is an idiot. But the problem is I'm I just as a reviewer as someone forced to put my reputation on that review. It just made me a little nervous when I saw the variations that I had seen over the years. And remember, my Musar experience goes back 40 years. It's not like the first time I ever saw them was when I met with broadband. And I had seen lots of variations and some of the variations were good. But they were still variations. What what do you consider the most exciting emerging wine region in the world today? Greece. Greece without question. I think recent Portugal have a lot in common in the sense that they both have a lot of indigenous grapes for small countries. And they are not as well known, but Portugal is much better known thanks to the throw off or a port and Madeira. And Greece is, I think, a little behind the curve and the marketing. I don't think they have as many high quality wineries yet. I don't think they've quite broken in to as many markets yet. Whereas when you taste a lot of Portuguese wines, they seem kind of familiar. In a way, you can analogize them to some things. Some people like to say Spain, that's not necessarily true, but a lot of people will pull that out. Greece, though, is what it is. And when you take a region like Santorini, which I think is the one region that has broken out, these are world class wines from incredibly old binds with high quality. And what we haven't seen yet, though, and even in Santorini, especially as the prices really start to rise, and they are small quantity wines from very old vines, and their high quality and prices are going to rise. And I've been warning people about this for a decade. But prove to me that if I buy a new vintage today, and it's $90 a bottle, that when I come back in 2035, I don't have to worry about it, because expectations change. When I started reviewing the wines, and that $90 bottle, say, was $29.99, that's a different expectation. When you start to want to play with the big boys, and you want to have the best of the best, you want to see some evidence of development, you want to see that they hold, you want to see that they become something special, besides just being a good drink for a few years. And I've seen some evidence that can happen, especially with some producers who make wines to age like Sagales. But I still think there's a body of evidence that needs to come out. There's more than just a surgical, right? This is a bigger thing. The average wine drinker knows that knows the sirtico, but probably doesn't know much more about Greek wines. And there's more than that, right? Well, a sirtico is the main thing on Santorini, where the overwhelming amount of the wines are white, and a sirtico is by far the dominant grape and the thing that gives them prestige. The other white grapes tend to be blending grapes, like a theory and aitani. But yeah, but a sirtico is one of the big four, they like to say, there's a sirtico. Sonoma Bros, my favorite red grape, that's mostly centered in the north, and I think it's a grape grape. It reminds me a little nebyola. And there's the Nimea region that makes higher aitico. And that's kind of interesting, because higher aitico, it's hard to describe it. It's kind of like a cross between Pinawan, Gameh. It has a red fruity feel. I'm not only sure the Greeks have figured out what style they think works best for this grape. You can get a lot of easy drinking, very fruity wine that's aromatic and incredibly flavorful. People say it's impossible to dislike true, but can it be something else than when you get the bigger styles? Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Is it made for that? I'm not sure. And then I like Mosca feelor a lot. Greece has two incredibly aromatic white grapes, Mosca feelor and Malagusia. And for people who have just fixated on a sirtico, don't. Mosca feelor and Malagusia. Great crepes. And again, I don't think we've always seen the best of what we're going to get. Mosca feelor is more advanced than Malagusia. Mosca feelor has its own appellation of banthenia, high elevation, late ripening, and the producers there have a pretty good idea what they're doing. Malagusia is more spread out and the style is not always quite the same, but both grapes are aromatic, fresh, they're delicious. And boy, people who don't know Greece really need to pay attention to something besides a sirtico. When you take Sonoma Malagusia, Mosca feelor, Robola. I mean, that's great stuff. There's a Reebola in Greece. Robola, Robola, R-O, B-O-L-A. Oh, not Reebola. Completely different. Great. Have you tasted much bark of alien? Yeah, yes and no. So I didn't always review it consistently. For one thing, it doesn't come out every year. So if you see reviews missing, it may mean it doesn't exist in those years. But the other problem is this is the iconic wine in Portugal and they will not send samples out. And the problem with barkavelia is it's a wine reputed to have 50 plus year aging ability. And often the only time I would get to see it would be in the middle of a tasting with 27 other wines. And I'm really busy and I have three more producers to see that day. And I'm just not going to review this based on the five minute taste or the 10 minute taste. And then they started to bring it to me having opened it overnight. But then I don't know where it started. So I always kind of felt a little uncomfortable and they won't send it out. And I didn't like the circumstances under which I was supposed to be putting a review on one of the most iconic wines in the region, the review everybody pays attention to. That's my reputation. And so there were some years I missed. That sounds like integrity to me. Thank you. I've tasted it a few times, not probably as many as you, but it can be a very, very profound compelling soul. I would say soul stirring line. Have you had the 2011 and the 2008? No, everything I've had as well, I think I have had the 2008. And older. See, Barcabellia is also a conundrum. But one good thing is the winemaker has some respect for the vintage. It's 2008 in Doro is a much lighter, fresher vintage. It's very elegant. It shows a lot of finesse and kind of disappointed people because it didn't have a lot of the rich ripe fruit that they expected with Barcabellia. Then you get the 2011. If the 2008 is maybe a little understated, the 2011 goes in totally the opposite direction, a declared work finish, of course, it's a big blockbuster. And it can leave people rolling on the floor, swooning at its splendor. But I have heard some people that suggest a little too much. I think it's a wine that's going to age very well, though. And I think if you have a wine like the 2011, you have to be careful drinking it too young. It's going to need some time to come around. The other problem, Barcabellia, though, is the name is there, but everything else is changed. I mean, the original vineyard is actually owned by Val Meal in Doro Superior. The company that bought it, Sogrop, owns it now, but it didn't used to be Sogrop's. The winemakers changed. So Barcabellia is there, but it doesn't necessarily have a lot of touch points left to the wine that was made in the 1950s. The more the world changed, the more things stay the same. So talk to us about Israeli wine. Is it the most improved wine region in the world in the last 30 years? Maybe, but no. I think Israel has actually sort of been stuck in a rut. They had massive improvement for a while. And I think Israel's wine industry has so many problems, you barely know where to start. First of all, they have some talented winemakers and they have talented consultants. You get a lot of people in Israel who are consulting, who are also consulting for famous French wineries and things like that. So it's not like they don't know what they're doing. You get some guys who are making wines in Napa, etc. You know, they know what they're doing. And there's a lot of great stuff coming out from people like Castel, from people like Margalite. But where are they going? The prices tend to be fairly high for obscure wines. It's very hard to get bargains in Israel. You know, you can go travel along the roads of France and find some, you know, $9 wine that knocks your socks off. That tends not to happen in Israel. Their price points for starting quality tend to be higher. And one of the problems is they have not much land. They don't make a lot of quantity. And as one of the producers said to me, we're never going to be the mass market region. We just can't compete at that level. And I think that's true. But it's also a problem getting a foothold in the marketplace. Then you get the prejudices that have been there for a long time. When you walk into a typical liquor store, you often have people go, "Where are the Israeli wines?" And you look over here and there in the kosher section. Well, okay. Not every Israeli wine is kosher. In fact, a lot of them aren't. The majority, the vast majority of the volume is kosher, that's true. But there are Israeli wines that are not kosher. And kosher is not a country. And when people see the signed kosher, most people, including Jews who are not religious, just walk on by because that's not where you're going to find the collectible wines. That's where you're going to find the wines that have had a terrible reputation over the years. So there has to be a recognition of Israel as a country and a region, not just kosher wines, even though most of them are. And then there's the problem of the Mavushal kosher wine. That's a subset of kosher. That's the infamous boiled wine. They don't make them boiled anymore. They're flash pasteurized and some of them have been pretty good. But that's another problem where a hurdle to jump over. And then, of course, Israel is always surrounded by political problems. And I was reading a review, I think it was in the London Times, or maybe it was the Guardian, some British paper on some new Israeli releases and how things had improved in Israeli winemaking. And the comments sections are immediately filled with endless amounts of political slamming of Israel to a point where the moderators had to close the comments. And this was well before any current problems. This was four or five years ago. So how does Israel break through into a modern wine era? And I'm not sure what the answer is, but one of the problems is the constant merging of religious imperatives, like making kosher wine, with wine, has confused a lot of people. And that's not going away, because the Israelis clearly do not want it to go away. Or at least commercially, it's impossible for it to go away. I think a small number of Israeli wine producers would be quite happy if it did not go away. And there are some that do not make kosher wines. But as long as that confusion exists, and as long as the reputation of kosher wines remains awful, they start with one strike against them. Then a second strike is they're fairly small. A third strike, and if you're counting, that's usually all you get, is most of their importers in the United States are going to be kosher distributors. So they're not going to have the same connections, the same issues as other people do, and the wines are going to be handled differently. They're not going to get as wide a distribution. Sometimes that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. How does Israel break through all this? I don't know, because if you stop making the wines kosher, one of the reasons a lot of people started making them kosher in Israel, they're hard to sell in Israel. And if you have them as kosher, they're hard to sell anywhere else. Good luck. I think when we finish this conversation, I've got to go move the Israeli wines that aren't kosher out of the kosher wine section in the store that I work in. But the catch-22 there is that nobody comes in looking for Israeli wine. They come in looking for kosher wine. They might buy a bottle of non-Kosher Israeli wine because it's on the shelf with the kosher wine. Did they come in looking for Lebanon wine, Lebanese wine, or Bulgarian wine? They come in, some people are looking for Chateau Musaar, but no other Lebanese ones. So you've got to have broader categories like Eastern Europe, Middle East. There's no point having an aisle for Israel. That's not going to work. But you can have Middle East and Eastern Europe or other regions, but it has to be identified as a region, not as kosher wine. And truthfully, there's nothing wrong with kosher wine. They drink just fine. There's no great harm to making kosher wine. It's a marketing issue more than it is a quality issue, except for those Meboucheau wines, which is a more complicated discussion. Is there an Israeli winery that makes great wine? Sometimes. I think they're pretty close. I don't think I ever rated one 95 or up. I'd have to double check. But Domen de Castel has made a lot of really fine wines. I've liked a lot of what Recanati does as one of the bigger wine producers. Margulite is an exceptional winery, a small boutique. I'm not sure about great. I've liked some things that have come out of Jez Reel. But I do say I wrote one nasty article a few years ago, and after that, I didn't get too many Israeli samples, again, in which all the wines seemed to be incredibly heavy bottles and sell for incredibly high prices. And they were good wines. They were like 90 points, 91, except for the presentation and the price you would expect better. And what I was getting was marketing acumen, but not the quality I expected, the places that do it the other way around, like Castel and Margulite. Not that Margulite's so cheap. That's a different story, but you have to pick and choose carefully. I tasted a Constantine Frank recently, recently, and it was stunning. That's another area that you cover, the Finger Lakes. I think the Finger Lakes is so unappreciated, under-appreciated. There are wineries there that produce extraordinary wines. Question is, I was debating this towards the end of my tenure, and I'm still not quite sure how I feel about it. Is the Finger Lakes still an emerging region, or has it emerged? And the Finger Lakes at this point have a critical mass of wineries, making good quality to excellent quality wine. They have some people making quite a lot of people, I think, making world-class recently. They don't have to apologize to anyone. The price points are very good. And the argument against it at the time, since I kept calling them emerging, was they didn't really have much market penetration outside of their area. Like Virginia, they pretty much didn't sell to anyone outside of their area. And I think there has been a lot of movement at that. I think some producers have taken that to heart. Some already agreed with it, and we're working on changing it. You can hear them now. They're having tastings. Don't hold me to the exact countries, Sweden or Tokyo or London. They're getting some wines farther afield to the point where more people are familiar with them. They're bringing in people from other nations as reviewers to see the wines. And I think that's what you have to do. Because if you want to be emerged rather than emerging, you have to be able to say, "I'm going to sit down on a restaurant list in London." And one of the choices may be Herman Weemer recently, or a Fox Run, or a Red Newt, or something like that. It can't be, "We're just going to sell things for Moselle." One more topic, and then I asked you for 30 minutes. You've already given me 45, so I don't want to overstay my welcome. This is because I talked much. It's not your fault. There's no limit to how there's no issues with your talking too much. That's the reason you're here. The worst thing is one word answers. I had one of these conversations with Ernie Lozen. I asked him one question. He'd talk for 45 minutes without taking a breath. So you're not even remotely in his world. But I'm sitting on the edge of my seat listening to what you're saying. There's no issues with your talking too much, certainly. Well, I hope I haven't gotten myself in trouble. I have a big mouth. But anyway, go ahead. So is Virginia more than Fionae? Oh, yeah. In fact, I would argue the best white in Virginia is Petit Ben-Sang. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, Bartholomew talked about that, yeah. I will say this though. Your biases do come into being, and I've never been a VONA lover. I just don't like the grape very much. And hanging your hat on VONA seems like a useless effort. True, I don't think Petit Ben-Sang is any more popular or better known. But white wines in Virginia will be interesting. I think Glenn Manners is making some excellent Soviet en Blanc. Some excellent Chardonnay is coming from London. There are places where you can find some other white grapes besides Fionae, and lots of people are making some stunning Petit Ben-Sang. I think they're doing really well with that. Did you say Petit Ben-Sang or Gromen-Sang? Petit. Is it made in the JORAS style or is it floor influenced or is it its own thing? Generally not floor influenced. So far as I've been told, if it is, they haven't told me. But some of them are off-dry or sweet. Some of them are own dry and very acidic. But in Virginia, I think they appreciate the acidity of the grape brings. So I generally ask this question at the end of these conversations. And I call you, I'm not asking you to tell me the greatest wine you've ever met. You've ever tasted because that's just bragging or, you know, who's got the, you know, whatever, big a cellar in the room. That's not the question I'm asking. Would you share with us a moment in your life in enjoyment of wine and writing about wine that has resonated with you and is special in your memory? At this point now that I'm old and have no hair and I'm falling apart and I'm decrepit, there are so many choices. I'm honestly not sure where to start. And a lot of events that occurred during my reviewing years, if I had been a tourist and somebody had asked me to pay for this tasting, I, oh yeah, I'm in. And one of those, just to give you an example, I showed up at Butari, the big iconic Greek producer. And I think especially they are famous for Sonoma Roa and things like that in that region. But they also make some good Moscow Filuro and they had a winery on Santorini. They're everywhere at this point. But I showed up in the north in their location up there. And they go, so we've arranged a tasting for you. And it was there in 1968 from 1968 and Alsa Sonoma Roa is on up. And they didn't have every year, which would have been impossible. And they had different things, some of them were the regulars, some were reserved versions or whatever. But still there must have been about 30, 40 wines out there going back to the beginnings of this iconic winery with this grape and these labels. Unfortunately, and this was the flip side, they didn't bother to tell me they were going to do that. And you know, you got that the day set aside for something like that. And I just had a normal appointment. So I had to slough past this a little too fast. And I had a similar event at Ramos Pinto, where he did, where Zhao did a large large tasting of the duus kintas reservas going back to the beginning. But again, I didn't have enough warning because that's something where I would like to spend the whole day. And I didn't have the whole day. I had other appointments. What can you do? I don't know about you, but if I am invited to something like that, I prepare. I do my homework before I walk in the door so that I don't embarrass myself. You know, and verticals are difficult because you constantly want to go back and okay, this seems to me not as good as the 68. Maybe I should go back and try the 68 again. Let's try these two next to each other. I mean, that's a lot of back and forth. It's hard to do real quickly and feel confident. You got it right. I have one more question. Did the responsibility of being or even does the responsibility of being the main journalist covering these regions way heavily on you? Did that ever worry you? Did you ever wake up at four o'clock in the morning going? I have too much effect. I can't handle this responsibility of being the mouthpiece for Greece, Israel, Portugal, the Finger Lakes, Virginia, etc. Is that something or a responsibility that seems? I understood the responsibility and I tried to treat the regions fairly. And as I say, one key thing there would be, I would have liked to have been in the regions more. And other than Portugal, I was not given the travel budget and allocation to do that. But in general, no, because I have a certain methodology and the wineries I was going to meet with and talk to for the most part, we're able to speak for themselves. And my view was always, if I tell the truth and I'm halfway competent, the regions will have enough to say for themselves, it's not my job to be their cheerleader. The fact that I'm here will result in publicity. I understand that. And the fact that they're doing a good job will result in publicity. But that part is up to them, not up to me. You know Roy Hirsch? Sure, of course. I think I'm going to have one of these conversations with him in January. Maybe you would join us. That would be really great. I'd be happy to do that because there's nothing more fun than teasing Roy. I agree. I said I agree more. That's very funny. Well, Mark, thank you. This has been a privilege to chat with you this morning. Thank you. I hope I went well. I hope I didn't run my mouth too much. You were exactly what I hoped you would be. And I will tell you that when I asked you that question about the responsibility of being the spokesperson for these wine regions in your response, what the word that came up in my brain again for the second time in this conversation is integrity. Thank you very much. There is, unfortunately, I think less integrity in wine journalism today than in some cases than is ideal. Well, it's nice that you are still a man of integrity. You're raising another broad issue. And let me just say I am glad I am out of the business. It's gotten to be a very tough business. You know, there's Alan Meadows on burgundy and champagne. You know, I trust him. I trust you. I guess Antonio Gologna, I trust, but that might be it. Well, I can think of a few other people I like, but in any event, thanks a lot. Well, I'm, you know, I'm exaggerating to make a point, but Bruce Sanderson's does a great job. Unfortunately, Clive Coates is gone, but he was in Steve Tanser. They're all people that you could trust. And you're all friend Bob. I mean, he had an agenda, but he was honest. Well, his agenda, you could criticize Bob's palette. Sometimes I have. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but you cannot criticize his integrity. And that was his best feature, in my opinion. And it was what he brought to the table first and foremost. He had a tremendous effect on wine in the world, maybe too much in some ways. But I think a lot of wine is better. A lot of producers or regions are better because he came along. Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much. It's been a thrill talking to this morning. And I'll be in touch in January when I schedule it with Roy. Oh, yeah, that will be fun. That'll be foot. Thanks Mark. Bye bye.