CANADALAND

It’s Not Antisemitism – It’s Shlomophobia

October 7th coverage in Canada was caught between memorializing a tragedy and reporting on an escalating war. Jen Gerson joins to discuss whether both should happen at the same time.

Also, duly noting what happens when a hurricane hits a news desert. Plus, Jesse shares some updates about Canadaland.

Host: Jesse Brown

Credits: James Nicholson (Producer), Caleb Thompson (Audio Editor/Mixer), max collins (Production Manager), Jesse Brown (Editor)

Guest: Jen Gerson

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Broadcast on:: 09 Oct 2024
Audio Format:: other

(whistles) - Canada Land, funded by you. (upbeat music) - I'm Jesse Brown, and today we're talking shit about the news. We'll talk a bit about Captain Planet, Peter Mansbridge. We'll talk a bit about what happens when a hurricane hits a news desert. Does it make a sound? But mostly, we'll talk about the incoherent media coverage of October 7th. - Grief, loss, such sorrow still written on the faces of those whose loved ones were killed. - But even here, grieving is pierced by the guns of continued conflict. - Wait for that. (upbeat music) - Canada Land is brought to you by CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health. We're trying out something that we have not done before. Later in this episode, you will hear me speak to Chris Cole, a two-time cross-country cyclist and filmmaker who has experienced mental illness and addiction himself. He's gonna share his story and he's gonna talk about how resources, like CAMH, have helped him and many others like him to manage their mental health. Keep an air out for that. And listen, if what Chris has to say later on means something to you, if his story moves you at all, please consider donating. Visit CAMH.ca/CanadaLand. One more time, CAMH.ca/CanadaLand. - This episode is brought to you by Douglas. Thankfully, most of us don't literally fall asleep. But if you happen to, on a Douglas mattress, you probably would not wake up your partner because Douglas has superior motion isolation. Douglas is giving our listeners a free sleep bundle with each mattress purchase. Get the sheets, pillows, mattress and pillow protectors free with your Douglas purchase today. Visit Douglas.ca/CanadaLand to claim this offer, that is Douglas.ca/CanadaLand. (upbeat music) Jen Gerson, co-founder and editor of The Line, Grand Dam of Canadian Substack. Welcome to the show. - That's quite the title there. Setting me on a pedestal, aren't ya? ♪ Oh, yeah, let's you leave all out ♪ - Grief, loss, such sorrow still written on the faces of those whose loved ones were killed. - The anniversary marks 12 months of profound grief and trauma in both Israel and Gaza. - A woman could be heard wailing in grief during the minute of silence at the location of the Nova Music Festival. - Today, it's their memorial. We see their pictures, one after another, after another. Jen, Monday was a very hard day, especially in specifically for Jews. As I think everybody knows, exactly a year prior was the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. And it's still a fresh memory, it's still a traumatic memory. Jews are still grieving and mourning, praying for the hostages to come home. And there's gonna be a lot more days to remember coming up, like October 17th is coming right up when as many as 300 people in Gaza were killed by a blast at a hospital in Gaza City and everything that's come since. But as much as those days should be remembered and allowed to be remembered for what happened on them and the tragedies of those days themselves, there is, I think, a widespread feeling in Jewish communities that like October 7th is October 7th. October 7th is not a day when Israel was attacking Gaza. That's the day when Israel was attacked by Hamas. And it was a day when some people celebrated as a triumph, but Jews, I think, will forever remember that day, not as a political thing even, but as a human tragedy. How do you respectfully reflect that in the media? Because we have these tropes and we have these remembering 9/11, 10 years later, we have these formats for solemn remembrance. And I think that just about every media outlet in Canada the mainstream, anyhow, attempted to give this like respect. It did not always go so well. - As the fighting intensifies across the region today, most Israelis are focused on the site where it all began. - But even here, grieving is pierced by the guns of continued conflict. - The brutal attack horrified people around the world and started a war that has now claimed thousands of lives. - The attack triggered the ongoing war in Gaza. We're also live at Queens Park. This is where a pro-Palestinian rally is being held. - The Israeli offensive has killed about 42,000 Palestinians according to local health officials. The October 7th Hamas attack killing 1,200 Israelis. - A point to one story in the Globe and Mail that I think is emblematic of what I'm talking about, here's the headline, "Vigils in Canada mark one-year anniversary of October 7th attacks. Against the backdrop of police cruisers and roaring helicopters, Jewish Canadians wept saying and huddled under Israeli flags and beneath the dim glow of candlelight as they remembered those killed and missing. Tonight, we all share the same broken heart." They quote Jeff Rosenthal of the UJA. "About 1,200 people were killed and 250 were taken hostage when Hamas militants stormed through Israeli communities on the border with Gaza in the early hours of October 7th. Israel subsequently invaded the Hamas-controlled Gaza strip leading to the death of more than 41,000 Palestinians according to the health ministry in Gaza. The events also triggered a region-wide conflict and on and on. So, first of all, we know. We know that October 7th kicked off a lot of other suffering. But like, no, you wouldn't do this in another circumstance. You would not say today is the 20th anniversary of 9/11. We remember the innocence killed. And also, the subsequent war on Iraq killed a lot more people. Like, you afford the survivors of that tragedy a day. If you're gonna do that thing, if you're gonna do the somber remembrance respect thing, like who is this for to both sides October 7th? That's my problem with some of this coverage. It's incoherent. - I think that's legit. I really struggle with these sorts of questions because I'm an amoral monster who's had her emotional affect blunted by too many years in news. And as a result, I really struggle with how to do anniversary coverage or anniversary coverage period. And I'm just talking about October 7th or September 11th. There are any number of these tragedies. Like, I sort of have a tendency to personally tune out a lot of anniversary coverage of tragedies because I don't like to feel my feelings. - You know what though? Here's a way to handle anniversary coverage. You don't have to do it. - No, that's true. No, you don't have to do it. - What is this assumption that people turn to the newspaper or a news broadcast for an emotional thing like that? - I kind of almost feel the same way about the way we commemorate. I mean, I have a very controversial opinions about the way we commemorate major people dying, for example. Like, when we had Brian Mulvary die, I'm just like, okay, I understand you need to do an obituary. Do we need two weeks of coverage talking to every single person who ever met him in his entire life? I mean, to me, like, there's an emotional porn aspect that starts to feel very unseemly to me. But then I will also admit that my emotional range is not, it's probably not neurotypical. There is some weird that compulsion that we have in our society that we are expecting, quote unquote, the media to reflect our emotional state on news stories at a sign times, and I'm not sure that that feels natural or normal to me. I hear your point about, look, if we're doing a commemoration of 9/11, but we allow the commemoration of that emotional catharsis to stand on its own, we don't necessarily try to back end that catharsis with both sides of his own. And then we invaded Iraq. I mean, I think you're right about that, generally speaking. That being said, some did. There were definitely some left-leaning organizations that piloted the way that we responded to 9/11 in the West after 9/11. And given the fact that the war in Gaza is ongoing, is it totally, totally inappropriate, you know, in graph five of a news story about a vigil to make note of the fact that it's ongoing? - No, it's not, and the world is at war, and there's seven fronts being fought, and things continue to happen. And a lot of this coverage is like, trying to do this media format of the solemn remembrance while missiles are whizzing overhead and things are still happening. - I mean, I went and I went to the times of Israel's side and how it's online yesterday as well. And they had the commemorative and memorial stuff, but then they also had, in addition to that, they also had, for example, there was, I believe, a counter protesting Netanyahu. - We had news. We had a news interview with the Israeli ambassador. So I don't think that everybody has to shut up about the news for October 7th. - No, so what I'm just saying, but they did. Then there was focus on the fact that I think there were rockets launched into central Israel from Lebanon as a result of the, like that's the news, right? I'm not necessarily justifying it, but I'm saying at the same time, I think the ongoing nature and the active, ongoing nature of the news makes it a harder thing to extricate. - There's a couple of things here, and it's worth me trying to sort this out. Like the National Post had a headline that was about emotions, well-meaning, right? Our Canada's Jews at a tipping point. Most are anxious. Many are fearful, and some have moved away. So this is like a well-meaning, sympathetic thing to us anxious, neurotic Jews, but it's about Jewish feelings, and I've read hundreds of headlines about Jewish feelings. This is what was not reported on the 7th. It was reported by Global News a couple of days earlier. Extremist attack on Jewish community realistically possible, intelligence report says. The government's Integrated Terrorism Assessment Center wrote in a June 24th memo that it's monitoring a rising tide of antisemitism and violent rhetoric. A lone-actor attack, security officials warn, inspired by a range of ideological or religious extremism, targeting Jewish interests in Canada is a realistic possibility. What I bristle at is there's this media narrative of Jewish feelings. Jewish Jews are feeling this way. They're feeling under threat. Like every couple of months, there is another terrorist plot in Canada thwarted. - Yes, but do you see the inter-aternal contradiction of your position here? - Explain it to me. - The only reason to do any memorial service at all is in service of feelings. - I think I'm saying that it's the feelingy news that I have a problem with. - But that would include the story that you started off with. The visual candlelight memorial thing, the hugging underneath the helicopters as they swept back. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, so you're on board with like, this is why I dislike anniversary coverage. - I think you can't do both things. You certainly can't do both things in the same story, okay? And those ones, here, I'll get into this for a minute too here. I've been thinking about this. Like that one, it hits a wrong nerve and a familiar wrong nerve. It's the same wrong nerve that I think a lot of Jewish people have been experiencing over the past year. Every time some terrible anti-Semitic incident happens, a synagogue is shot at or something. The news will say anti-Semitism happened and it's surging to historic levels. And Islamophobia is also up a big too. Like both of those things are newsworthy, but why do you have to qualify or mitigate a story that is reporting on what's happening, this horrible surge of violence and menacing towards Jews. What would be the issue with simply reporting that something happened to a synagogue today? I wanna clarify something about this. I'm not calling that kind of coverage anti-Semitic. Like, I don't know, this is anti-Semitic. They're all anti-Semites. No, it's not the right word for it. They're not anti-Jew. It's not like against Jews, but you sense that they're like uneasy about Jews. You know, they're anxious. They're afraid that if they seem to be too sympathetic to Jews, people might take offense. People might assume that they're on a different side or that the media doesn't care about Palestine. It's not a hatred. It's more like a phobia. It's more like the reason why politicians wouldn't go to a pride parade because they just didn't, like they weren't necessarily anti-gay, but they didn't wanna look pro-gay. And they certainly didn't want anyone to think that they were gay. We're coming off about a five-year stint when I think people have been very afraid to offend the wrong people on Twitter. And I think we're coming to an end of that period now. In fact, I think that the pendulum is now starting to swing pretty radically in the opposite direction. Yeah. I think that there is a sense of, you know, if you say the wrong thing or if you appear in any way to be too sympathetic to Jews in Canada, the impression might be that you're pro-Israel or God forbid Zionist. And so therefore you are going to be a worthy target of protest and backlash. That's exactly right. And most people I think don't really struggle with being a target of protest and backlash. I mean, I say this is someone who has been protested and been the target of backlash. It's not pleasant. Like you have to be really sociopathic to not give a shit. No, it really does, it messes with your wellbeing. I understand it completely. Not everybody has the internal or external resources to put up with that perpetually, right? Yeah. I'm not justifying it, but I think that that's probably the psychological impulse that's happening there. I think it's important to try to understand it and to not be overly damning of it and to say, oh, you all are anti-Semites 'cause it's a very regular thing to understand that regular people are phobic or they're nervous too. Like if something terrible happens to a synagogue down the street and you might have the impulse to say something publicly, they say like, that's terrible. I'm so sorry or we won't stand for this. But you're afraid to say that online. I think many people are because maybe people might assume on Facebook that then you're also pro-Israel and then there might be angry comments to deal with or even to hit retweet or to hit like like on a post like that. So I don't think that most people hate Jews. I think that they're anxious to support us. They're not anti-Semites. We need a different word. They're schloma-phobes. There, they're very schloma-phobic. When Olivia Chow refuses to go to the October 7th vigil or another Jewish community event because she said it was too divisive. You know, like this is like her community. People are mourning. They're getting together in solidarity against racism, but she won't go because it's too divisive. She's not being anti-Semitic. She's being schloma-phobic. - Maybe that's a better way for that. I mean, the similar thing happened last year in Calgary with the manure lighting ceremony and the mirror making a strong, brave stance to refuse to show up to a fucking manure lighting ceremony. - Yes, you have a very schloma-phobic mirror. She wouldn't stand next to a menorah. That's just, it's schloma-phobia. - You don't have to necessarily be supportive of every single thing the Israeli state is doing to demonstrate support for your local Canadian Jewish community. There's a clear line there that you're crossing when you conflate these two things. I mean, to me that's just patently obvious and I think it's absurd. I need this term because I'm tired of seeming like, the paranoid Jew who thinks they're allowed to get us. I don't think most people hate us at all, but I do think that there's a lot of schloma-phobia out there. - Yeah, but I hate to use this historical analogy, but the people who engage in active hate, like really active entrenched hate are always gonna be the minority. - Yeah, it's the ones who allow it to happen. - It's the ones who, I mean, I know that's cliche, but it is the ones who allow it to happen who just like, you know, I'm just gonna keep my head on. And I say this is someone who's been guilty of keeping your head down sometimes because my inner resources just weren't there to necessarily take on every goddamn fight on Twitter. You know, like you just, you have to sometimes pick your battles. I get that, but I do get very concerned for what's happening in Canada around anti-Semitism. I do think that there is a huge conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. I think that there is a huge unwillingness to draw an appropriate line between, say, protesting the Israeli embassy and protesting a random synagogue or showing up in a Jewish community. I think that if you can't distinguish between why one of those actions might be appropriate, legitimate, and one of those actions is pretty radically over the line, there's a problem. I think that for a lot of people who are not Jewish, who looked at what happened in society post October 7th, you know, assuming we weren't in a particularly anti-Semitic society, that illusion was really radically shattered after October 7th. I don't think that people were actually secretly anti-Semitic prior to October 7th, and then now the mask is off. I actually think that what's happening is more disturbing, is that I think that people are sort of slowly getting eased into anti-Semitism through the phrase that you're trying to make happen here. I'm not saying this is a way to sort of minimize the concern that I have about what's happening in Gaza. I mean, I think a lot of people do have concerns about what's happening in Gaza and the way that the Israeli state is responding to what's happening in Gaza. I think that's perfectly legitimate, but I do think that what's happening in Canada, specifically in North America, specifically, thousands of kilometers away, is that a response to this is going beyond reasonable protest of a foreign state's action, and it's becoming a social panic that is slowly eating people's brains and allowing them to take actions and sets of beliefs that they wouldn't have taken a year ago. And that's the kind of mentality that leads people into beliefs and actions that ultimately run counter to their most deeply held values. And that concerns me. How far does that go and how deep does that go? - And looping back to what you said earlier, 'cause I know it's true, nobody has to invite into their life all of the drama that might come with that when it comes to saying something about racism in Canada, and you are clearly righteous among the Gentiles. You are not a schlomaphobe. Do you know who else is not a schlomaphobe? - Who else is not a schlomaphobe? - Pierre Poliev. He loves Jews so much that he wrote us a poem. Here he is, Pierre Poliev, at a October 7th vigil. Mercifully, we will play you just a small section of his poem. - Mususes guard each doorways frame, yamakas worn without shame. Stars of David, proud and bright, eternal symbols of their might. The Jewish people tried and true on Simchatora, spirits renewed. They do not eat green eggs with ham. I pander to them, sham that I am. - He mispronounced Mususes. It's not that, it's not like you're saying Mususes. Mususes on the door. - I don't know how to pronounce Mususes. Is today you right, Mususes? - It's a Mususes, it's not that hard. - It's not that hard. - It's kind of hard. I mean, don't get me started about the problems of transliterating certain types of Semitic languages into English because I can actually speak with some knowledge on that subject. - Oh my God, that is a warning, I will heed. I will not get you started on that subject. - Don't get me started on that. But I would point out that when you hear poems like that, do you maybe forgive me just a little bit when I say that I'm a soulless monster who hates all anniversary coverage that is rooted in emotion? - No, I agree. Okay, stick around everyone. After the break, we'll talk about Canada Lands coverage on October 7th, which was an interview that I did with Israel's ambassador to Canada. This episode is brought to everybody by CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health. Over the last month, I've been talking to Chris, a mental health advocate for CAMH. Chris has experienced mental illness and addiction himself, and he explained to me that bettering his mental health has not been a straightforward process. - My experience pulling myself out of my own near decade long opioid addiction, I had to address the depression, so I felt good enough that I could start moving forward along the way like as I kind of started pushing forward and found something that gave me meaning in my life. The thing started to get better, but it's one foot front of the other is day by day. - CAMH is building better mental health care for everyone to ensure that nobody is left behind. Part of that is their wraparound services. They provide multiple types of care in tandem for people with complex needs. - You have to factor in the entirety of someone's life. You have to have these wraparound components where you're not just tackling say one issue within their mental health, but sometimes the causation of that, we need people to continue to lead in our field and the development and mental health and addiction to treatment which CAMH does. Like I said, they're a wraparound service. They do the research to provide the care. They have such innovative ways of approach that don't exist anywhere else. - Listen everybody, we are in the middle of a global mental health crisis. Mental health needs have never been greater. That is why CAMH needs your support. This mental illness awareness week, your donation to CAMH will be matched. Great time to give. Visit CAMH.ca/CanadaLand to double your impact. One more time, camh.ca/CanadaLand. Go do it. - This episode is brought to everyone by article. Jen, if I lived in Calgary, I would be really focused on my interior space. - There's nothing, there's nothing out. Where are you gonna go? - Well, definitely for like six months out of the year, I can assure you we all are very focused in our interior space. - Where are you gonna go, Jen? I imagine that you'll be hosting people inside your lovely home. Thanksgiving is coming up. That means you gotta find places for people to sit. Fall and winter is when indoor living spaces are really put to the test. If you need to upgrade your couch, swap out your coffee table, add a comfy chair to your living space. You should check out our article. Jen, they ship the stuff to your home. You don't have to go outside in Calgary when you use article. - This is not a non-significant appeal. I'm not gonna lie. - It's great stuff, it's stylish, it's well made. I've used it many times. We have their stuff in our office. I have it at my home. In the office, we have the OTO lounge chairs. They look incredible. Mid-century modern vibe, also ergonomic, which is a word that I've been told means something. 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The best, Jen, the Douglas mattress. This is what we're talking about here. There's no futon, no crows involved. I have so many questions. We're talking medium firm support. We're talking about an eco-light cooling gel layer that sleeps cool. We're talking about a moisture-wicking cool-sense cover. I have tried the Douglas mattress. Douglas makes really comfortable mattresses. The price point is surprising. It's very reasonable. Jen, there is free doorstep delivery. There is a 20-year warranty. There is a 365 night trial period. This is one heck of a mattress at a price that is very competitive, even when you compare it to other mattress in a box options. Jen, you've slept on that futon. I implore you to treat yourself to a Douglas. They are giving our listeners a free sleep bundle with each mattress purchase. Get the sheets, pillows, mattress, and pillow protectors free with your Douglas purchase today. Visit Douglas.ca/candodaland to claim this offer that is Douglas.ca/candodaland. Do you want to talk about your chat with the Israeli ambassador? I'm happy to. This is a media criticism show. I'm not going to necessarily criticize the interviewer, but I'm curious as to what your response to the criticism was. What criticism? Just kidding. No, I mean, it was very predictable that people who have already reached the conclusion, I think, an unfounded conclusion because I've never taken a position in support of the Israeli government, the Israeli war, but people who think because I've been talking about anti-Semitism that I must, therefore, be a radically pro-Nate and Yahoo. Which is sort of telling on yourselves there. I'm just going to point that out, but OK. Nothing dissuades people if they've come to that conclusion. If you watch the interview, I think that-- look, I've watched every interview that Israel's ambassador, Idomo Ed, has done with Canadian media. We gave him the most challenging interview that anyone has given him. So I think the work stands for itself. Yeah, so here's my question is, what were you trying to achieve by doing that interview? Accountability. What do you hope for when you speak to a government official? Specifically, I cover Canada. So accountability about Israel's role in Canada. I do think that there are contradictions with Israel's domestic policy, which they know, and it's been documented that they know internally that they have been inflaming global anti-Semitism with their policies in the West Bank, and that here they are in Canada, and they have this policy that we are fighting anti-Semitism in the diaspora. So there's a contradiction that I wanted to follow up on. I wanted to follow up on impacts of Israeli policy for Lebanese Canadians and for Palestinian Canadians. And I wanted to press them on things that he said elsewhere, that Israel is counting on support from Canadian Jews. So what are the limits of that support? So that's what I went in there with. And he's a state ambassador. He's not going to stray too far from the talking points. But there's always a point in putting those questions to somebody, even if they just evade them, then you know, or if they have a bad argument in response for that's worth knowing and getting them on the record for. But I felt like we did better than that. I felt like we got some stuff out of them that I wasn't expecting. - So I guess my question, she goes, "Why you?" You know, you want to staff. I don't know how many people you got on staff at Canada land. There are other interviews you could have sent. Why did it have to be you? - Well, I think that when so much of what I had to ask had to do with Israel's relationship with the Jewish community in the same way that you want a newsroom that has people that have positionality. You want a newsroom where people know a topic well and have a personal connection to it. And it cuts both ways because some people will say, "I shouldn't have done it. I shouldn't have done it." Because I reject outright the idea that I have a conflict of interest. 'Cause like by being a Jew, I have a conflict. Like I would have a conflict of interest if I had taken a position. If I, you know, which people have been pressuring me to do since the start. But if I had taken a position, I wouldn't have gotten the interview. This is why we remain out of neutrality. We might have opinions. If you were to say, I think that PR Polyev should win and the other guy should lose, you're not getting an interview with Trudeau 'cause you're not a journalist anymore. You're a political opponent. - I think one of the challenges that you've had with Canada land is that it's not clear from the outside what hat you're trying to wear. Are you trying to be a dispassionate publisher who has handed over editorial control to a separate team? Or are you trying to take the role of an editor-in-chief in which ultimately you're the boss and you get to set the editorial standards for your staff? And I wanna say this right off the bat is that I, you know, I think it's perfectly legitimate for the owner of an outlet to take an uninvested role in the editorial standards of the outlet that they created founded and believe in the majority ownership. Newsrooms are not like jazz-hands-collectives, man. Someone's gotta make the call about what gets put to air and what standards you're gonna hold yourselves to as an institution. My sense from the outside of Canada land is that this is something that you and your organization are struggling with. And I think that some of the challenges you've had and some of the little controversies that you've had are fundamentally rooted in what role does Jesse Brown play in dictating editorial control in Canada land. Is that fair? Is that reasonable? - It is, and I'm glad you asked me. And this will be news to some listeners who don't follow all of the internal Canada land personnel ups and downs and changes. It's not a secret. If you check the credits of our shows recently or if you check the masthead, it is a fact that I am once again the editor of Canada land. I'm glad to have the opportunity to speak about it. I'm limited to what I can't say 'cause it's not professional or respectful. It might not be legal to talk about Karen, our outgoing editor in chief. I will speak only about myself. So the notion that I had Jen, that it would be a great idea for a guy like me to hire somebody else to run our newsroom while I stayed on as a host and reporter, to hire somebody else and give them authority to tell me what I couldn't could not say on Canada land. - It's not realistic. - It turns out that was a very bad idea. - I just don't think that's a grounded in reality of your personality or what Canada land is. - Or why it exists in the first place. It was a very silly thing for me to think that that would work well. I take responsibility for that. I'm the one who set up that dynamic and foolishly so. So the thing that people do need to know and I think your right transparency is key is that yes. And this is being clear in the newsroom and it was clear in the newsroom when I did that interview. I am back in charge. I remain fiercely committed to debate in the newsroom. I remain fiercely committed to publishing opinions that I don't agree with and other opinions that we publish will disagree with me and like back and forth. And it'll be debated in front of everybody and we're one of the last places that provides that. And I think that our coverage over the last few weeks, including our coverage of that interview, our own coverage of our coverage proves that that is true. There's room for a lot of different points of view here. But yeah, it is understood within the company and I want to be understood without the company that I am running the newsroom and I intend very much to keep covering racism in Canada against any group that's facing it. Jangerson, you have done this many times and I know that you care about people missing news stories that they shouldn't miss. And that's why you've brought something to Dooley note today. - Yeah, so a couple things. One would be I'm really paying attention to hurricanes. Now there are some specific and some general reasons why I'm paying attention to hurricanes. One is because I'm fascinated by hurricanes and it is one of my great dreams as a journalist to go do storm chasing for a little while. It's one of my ultimate ambitions in life. I love storms. That's my general reason. The other one is there's two hurricanes that have caught my attention. One is Hurricane Helene, which recently went through North Carolina, which I think is worth noting because North Carolina has really proved to be quite a news desert. So we don't necessarily have the greatest information about the state of the damage, what's going on in a lot of places. We're relying on people with camera phones and uploading to YouTube to get information. And also a lot of disinformation and misinformation about where to go, who to trust, whether or not you should evacuate. It's pretty bananas what's going on in North Carolina right now. And I thought that that was worth noting because I think that North Carolina is giving us a very early preview of what natural disasters look like in news deserts. And the reason why I think that's something that Lee and Canada should be paying attention for it, it's not necessarily that a thousand well-informed, thoughtful, grounded news outlets spring up in the absence of corporate the media, the corporate legacy media. What tends to happen is that there's a real mixed bag of replacements, some of which are actually perfectly great and awesome and do excellent work. And some of which are not and are not grounded and are deeply conspiratorial, deeply not just critical of authority, but fundamentally distrustful of institutions and authority. People who don't necessarily have the training or the grounding to report the news in a way that's ethical or responsible or even sane. The other one I'm interested in is Hurricane Milton. Again, this is one of these examples of, there's now pretty clear in my mind example of long-term impacts of climate change are now starting to make themselves more and more prevalent through extreme and severe weather. Milton is shaping up to be a really historic and fascinating hurricane. I mean, I'm watching meteorologists on Twitter like lose their shit, start to cry, freak out by the millibar recordings coming out of the storm eyes and the wind's measurements coming up of the storm eye walls and things like that. - The Milton meteorologists are losing it and it's scaring me. - It's just an incredible, incredible, incredible hurricane. - It has dropped, it has dropped 50 millibars in 10 hours. I apologize, this is just horrific. - So that one's expected to hit Tampa right about now, right about the time that this podcast is coming out. - You've got a really interesting point there because we can bang on and on about how the public needs journalism, public needs journalism, news deserts are a problem. It's gonna be climate catastrophe. We've been browbeating people into keeping the lights on in newsrooms and it hasn't been working. But like the day that there's a hurricane bearing down on your community and you cannot find out if there's an evacuation order. Like I saw a clip of like a public official in Tampa being like, "If you don't leave your home, you will die." - If you choose to stay in one of those evacuation areas, you're gonna die. - But it's worse than that 'cause the distribution channels are still there for communicating this to people. But if you have a population that's totally lost any kind of faith in any kind of authority structure, well, fuck you, I'm not gonna die. I'm not gonna go to your emergency shelters. FEMA's corrupt, you know what I mean? Like it's the compounding effect of institutional distrust. Some of which is by the way is earned. - Well, what do we say? Fact still matter and eventually the truth catches up with you. And it may not be politics. It may not be riots in the street. It may be when the roof comes off of your home. duly noted. I actually have a climate thing to duly note. This is a weird week. David Suzuki, Peter Mansbridge and other prominent ex-broadcasters are calling out the CBC. It's been reported that this happened a year ago. David Suzuki, Peter Mansbridge and Moore sent this call to action to Brody Fennler, head of news at CBC about the CBC's climate coverage. They have a raft of recommendations, including a demand for a daily climate emergency report. A couple of things about this. First of all, sounds great. David Suzuki, Lyndon McIntyre, Mansbridge, CBC doing better climate coverage. Sounds like a good idea for reasons that we just got into. A daily climate emergency report. First of all, if you do a daily emergency report, it ceases to be an emergency. - Yeah, you run into the, remember after 9/11 when you had the Homeland Security Color Code, whether it was blue, green, yellow. First, everyone took it really seriously, and then it became a running joke. And it became like a meme almost. Like, I think that you're a daily climate emergency bulletin might have a counterproductive effect. - Why stop at daily? Why not hourly? At six o'clock, here's your hourly climate emergency report. We're still fucked. We'll see you in an hour. - Yeah, at certain point, people just emotionally numb out at that kind of stuff. - I think so. The second thing I wanted to point out about this is the first scoop we had here at Canada Land was Peter Mansbridge speaking for the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers. While he was moderating panels on the oil sands, on the air, while he was hosting news reports about the oil sands and climate, he was taking money from the oil industry and not disclosing it. So it's a little bit rich. I'm glad though that he finds time in between selling reverse mortgages and hosting his podcast to push the CBC on this. - For the five more minutes that the CBC is not gonna be defunded, I'm sure it will make a big impact. Do we know that? (upbeat music) - That's our show for today. Jen, thank you so much. - Anytime. - I can be emailed about anything that you've heard at jesse@cannadoland.com and I read everything that you send. Jen Gerson, where can people find the line? - You can find the line at www.readtheline.ca. Through that, you will find emails and various forms of communication by which you can get ahold of me if you absolutely must. - This episode is produced by James Nicholson with additional production by Caleb Thompson. Our production manager is Max Collins. I'm Jesse Brown, editor and publisher at Canon Land. The music is by so-called syndication is by CFUV 101.9 FM in Victoria. You can visit them online at CFUV.ca. This episode is brought to you by supporters Scott Hiesen, Sarah White and Robert McIntosh. You can become a supporter too. Think you should. We rely on listeners like you. We're paying for journalism. As a supporter, you will get premium access to all of our shows, ad-free. We'll get early releases and bonus content. 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