Good morning. This is John Richardson speaking with you from Toronto, Canada. It is 915 in Toronto, so it definitely is the morning, but it's even earlier in the morning with my guest today. And I'm really excited to have this conversation with Solomon Yu. I've known Solomon for a good many years, but haven't, and have done podcasts with him over the years, but not recently. So not only is this a great catch-up podcast, but it's an opportunity to talk about the latest announcement from Republicans overseas concerning Americans abroad and citizenship taxation, but we'll get to that. But first, Solomon, thank you for getting up so early to me with me today. You're in Oregon, I think, right? Yes, correct. And thank you for having me. And this is a very important issue. And I have been working on this issue for 10 years, i.e. ending the double taxation of all 9 million overseas Americans. Well, that sounds about right, because I think we've known each other for something like 10 years. So I guess that, you know, that coincides with it. But you know, it's interesting to me, you know, the length of time that you've been involved with this and Republicans overseas generally, Jim Gotther, people like that. But I think it would be interesting, you know, for people to understand. I mean, you basically founded Republicans overseas, I think, didn't you? And it's current one. Yes. Okay, so that must mean that you must have been a Republican before having founded Republicans overseas. And I know that, you know, you are actually an immigrant to America, I believe. So I think it's interesting, you know, to just begin a little bit with, you know, your life story. I mean, how do we get to where we are? I mean, how does a guy born in China come to America and become, you know, one of the leading faces of trying to end citizenship taxation? I mean, that's, you see like an unlikely guy, you know, to be here today. So tell me a bit about how it all began. I think had a lot to do with my upbringing and escaped CCP, China, tyranny. Let me, I was born in communist China and live under the tyranny for about 20 years. And couldn't keep my mouth shut. So my late grandfather and talked to his friend, Dr. Glenn Orz, and said, my parents were told, if your son couldn't keep his mouth shut, we would make him disappear in the night. And you, too, have to pay for the border. Got them really scared. And so they reached out to my late grandfather in Hong Kong and who was attending World Methodist Church Conference in Hawaii and talked to his buddy, Dr. Glenn Orz. And so Glenn said, no problem. I'm going to get him a scholarship. And also, I'm going to write to US Council General's office and get him a visa. No, Glenn was a Democrat. And Glenn was US Ambassador to UNICEF under President Kennedy. So my Methodist Church connection and my Democrat party connection paid off within six months. So I got my Chinese passport and US visa. And I left China. I landed in Anchorage, Alaska on October 23, 1980. Now, that's very important day for me. It was my liberation day, right? So for somebody escaped tyranny, found freedom in America, and realize what I need to do is start defending my new found freedom. And so I got involved in Republican Party politics, and got elected first time in 2000 as a Republican National Committee for Oregon. That was my title. And got re-elected again again for six terms, though that four years term. And so I just finished my 24 year service on the last day of our National Convention this year in Milwaukee. So fast forward. Since I got involved, one of my 40 really is a policy, and I passing R&C resolution advocating a policy. And philosophically, I am a Constitution list before I am a Republican. So when I in 2014, and lots of overseas Americans complain about factor. And when I see factor, I see something is not just double taxation, double taxation issue is not a reporting requirement, or the burden of paying tax prepares and very expensive stuff like that. What I see it two parts, Constitution of violations. One is you guys overseas Americans have to report your assets. And in the States, we only have to report my earning on my bank accounts through 1099. So that was a privacy violation to begin with. And to you overseas Americans being treated as second class citizens. Now that to me, those are problems for me as a person from freedom in America. So foremost, I realized if, if you got a 9 million overseas Americans out there. And if we're going to represent them, had to fight appeal. That's what I started. All right, so I say identify the issue of having repealed fact. And now can I ask you, now I know that there was an older organization Republicans abroad that I don't know a great deal about. But I gather that about this time that you sort of pulled in the range and said we're going to create Republicans overseas. Is that as an organization? Is that what happened? That's correct. The reason we did that was Republicans abroad closed their office. And so that is a gap. But at the same time, Republicans abroad is a club, a social club. So we're going to start together, talk about politics, have a meal, lunch, or dinner, whatever it's a social gallery. And is not a political organization, advocating policies, advocating issues for 9 million overseas Americans. I think I'm out of the party system. And I know how to do presidential level campaign on one hand. I also know how to advocating policies, including lobbying political leaders in both chambers in Washington DC, including lobbying the White House and lobbying, you know, President himself. And so when, when I say this, I realized, one, if we're going to represent Republicans in general, those are Republican voters abroad. And we have to carry that carry water for that issue. In fact, I was the issue. So first thing I did 2014, I authored, authored, and passed a R and C resolution in support of residency based taxation. So I realized a citizen ship based taxation really is the cause. So I was very early on realize the fundamental problem right there. But in Washington DC, the reality is, when lots of people will do lip service to you. And lots of people will tell you one thing, and they do something else. And also they see overseas Americans is a team machine each time Washington DC need more money. They're going to squeeze you as simple as that. So they sort of commands, these are what are called revenue offset provisions, you know, they need a way to pay for something and say, well, you know, let's invent a new tax on Americans abroad, or, you know, let's let's increase the reporting penalties for F bar and things like that. And examples of this kind of stuff. Exactly. Yeah. You know, to balance their spending basically. Okay, when they propose a spending and they use you guys to balance the spending taxing you to balance the spending. So when I see that. So I realized, first thing is, we're going to sue IRS. What you're referring to now this would be the, was it 2012 or 2014 this is what was called the fat illegal action lawsuit correct that correct 2015. Okay, you know, after I pass a R&C resolution in a ideal world when you pass a resolution. All my party leaders, because this is national resolution right, and with a follow resolution principle right, and we're doing something. Unfortunately, what I learned is that overseas Americans, they not vote for one thing, not too many of them, even though you got a 9 million overseas Americans out there, but not everybody voting. That's one problem. And two, guess what do you see respond to, either you're a big donor, or you got lots of votes, and as a voting block, but problem again, most of votes are not in one district, one congressional district, or one senatorial district. And so your votes are all over. So I realized, my resolution passed is not that effective. Right. Well, let's let's teach you to. Yeah, you know, you're absolutely right. Of course, let's explore this, you know, this problem of the votes of Americans abroad being distributed here there and everywhere. It's really impossible for them to vote as a voting block. You know, it's been suggested that Americans abroad should have their own representatives in Congress, the way that people who live in various territories. Do you think that it would make sense, and that would help this issue if there were sort of some seats allocated for Americans abroad in Congress? No, that's what I call French model. Actually, French has a senator, a friend of mine, living in Louisiana, representing French expats in America. And, but the problem is, one congressman, one senator won't help you. Okay. And also, so called territorial representation, like Guam. Guam's Congress woman is a friend of mine also served on Republican National Committee. But she is not a voting member of Congress. That's not a problem. So it's sort of like they can sit and listen, but they can't participate. No, they can cast the vote. The first vote for the speakership. That's it. That's enough of that. And her vote is useless. So it was a 10 year learning experience or process for me as well. The reason is you find this can step out. And you realize, probably a resolution alone, one cut it. I also managed to get that resolution into a R and C national platform as a plank. Okay. And hopefully, in theory, all Republican nominees and Republicans, officeholders should upholding platform principles. And guess what? Because your votes spread everywhere. And in that, in a single district, you don't have enough votes to have a voice. That was one of the problems. And let's say no. Yeah. So Solomon, you know, what you say is absolutely true. So I'm wondering, I mean, I think it's tough being a US citizen voting from abroad. I think it's really tough. I mean, how do you think they ought to think about their vote? I mean, there's all this pressure in social media, you know, to get out, vote, vote, vote, vote. What is it they're they're trying to deal with their vote? I mean, do they vote pretending that there are no citizenship taxation issues that none of this matters? What do they I mean, there's a different kind of people, but how do they think about this? My advice to them is that's how I started 2016. I went, you know, we have 17 presidential candidates. I went to every single presidential candidate's talk to them about ending double taxation. Okay. And the reason is when you reach a level of presidential politics. All overseas votes are concentrated. Whatever the Democrat nominee or the Republican nominee, right? And at that point, you do have leverage. You can waste your leverage, or you can use your leverage to do something. Okay, that's why I said it took me 10 years to go to where I am today. All right, now fast forward to platform. FECA. I mean, RBT of residency based taxation resolution didn't work and become part of platform R and C platform. It didn't work. So we started lawsuit. And actually, we got a nine on no seven plaintiffs. Senator Rand Paul was one of our seven plaintiffs. And we go through about hundred plaintiffs and wind up with seven. Okay. And of course, you know, you have to raise the money. It was a very expensive lawsuit. And the problem was a federal court decided all seven plaintiffs and no legal standing to sue IRS. No legal standing hold up. It was the fact IRS did not send any seven of them a threatening letter. If you don't do XYZ and we're going to you know, we're going to seize your assets. No legal standing and take to the circuit court. And we got it, you know, they overhauled a local ruling, then take all the way to US Supreme Court. They didn't want to hear. Okay, the case. So the what the Supreme Court ruled and this is just my memory of this is that they would not hear the case specifically on the denial of standing right. That's correct. In other words, the case was never heard. It was we're not going to let you hear the case because you're not allowed to hear bring the case right that's sort of in people. Yeah, no standing is the easiest way to defeat your opponent basically, you know, hey, you don't have a standing and, you know, go away kind of situation. Right. Right. Well, I mean, incredible that, you know, that you kept it going. God, as far as you did, because my memory of this is that, you know, the time between the beginning of that I remember beginning with you had a press conference in London, didn't you in front of the US embassy. I actually remember seeing that on the media. Yeah, that was great. I mean, I know one of the people personally, you know, standing there. But it was, this is what four years to take four years or so before the Supreme Court finally said now we're. That's correct took four years, but at the same time, I usually run two tracks. Okay. And the second track is a legislative track. So what we did it was, do you remember Congressman mock middles later he became President Trump White House chief staff. Yeah, to the 17 matters hearing share. Yeah, I was there. Yeah. Right. And he, he's subcommittee government accountability hold a hearing on FACA. And Jim Bob was one of the three witnesses, testified our lawyer himself, and others. You were there. I even we have a group picture. I saw you were in that picture too. And so FACA problem really got exposed, and all the legal issues got exposed. So the second track is working as a result of his hearing, he decided to sponsor a bill to repeal FACA. And Senator ran Paul, our plaintiff, one of the seven plank diff also decided he learned the process as well. He realized, you know, how unfair the legal system was regarding our FACA lawsuit, right. And he decided to repeal FACA. But the problem is again, and remember the gentleman, Jim McCain. Yeah, Senator Jamaican hates overseas Americans. They, he considered all Americans, because you guys have a, you guys have foreign accounts. You guys are text sheets. Okay. And so when you have one senator brought the bill, and the bill never have a chance, because no politician wants to spend their political capital, and to get the bill out of the committee. And then got a killed in the center somewhere, right, and knowing you have a major, major opposition for FACA repeal bill. So, Obama gave you guys FACA. It really FACA you right. It was change to believe it. It was change you can believe it. That's correct. And you have less change in your pocket, actually, right. And your privacy, right. And then the Senate, McCain, and just double down. And fact, you as well. Right. And so that's where we are. Now, fast forward to 2017, 2017, actually, we were part of a Trump text reform. And remember, I told you, I share that with all the candidates, presidential candidates of the goal to end double taxation. Yes, yes, what? Running into how to pay for it. So, I was waiting to give a 911 tax deduction. Okay. Because, you know, that time, if you make 200,000 above for us tax liability, first hundred thousand exempt, then you still have to pay 20,000 on your tax. Whatever. Let's say you make 100, 20,000, right. And overseas, 100, 20,000 is poverty level, right. And you're not really making reasons. So much higher, because prices are so much higher to be clear. That's correct. And so you wind up still pay 100% tax to the country. You are working and residing. But main why what really is killing you is the tax preparation bill from your CPA for us tax return. So that was the problem. We all recognize that. And so based on this, even though I offer to, you know, to forgo so-called tax deduction, and to end double taxation. So overseas Americans only have to pay tax where they earn a income. All right. So now that was the idea. Start then, during this part of tax reform. However, they couldn't score how much money we're really talking about saving, right, for the government. So we got left behind during that process, time running out. And the both house and Senate have to vote on the bill. We don't have the score. Okay. That was the reason we were not part of it. So, after that, we go to Congressman George holding same idea to and double taxation. Actually, if you remember the bill he introduced, I had an honor to name it, call tax fairness for Americans abroad act. Yeah, I remember that very well. That came out. Sure. It was right at the end of 2018. I remember it very, very well. And, you know, I mean, it was, it was a very, very decent first step in tax reform. No question. But Solomon, can I just ask you this? And I think this, this might be useful for clarification. It's interesting to me that both today, right now, and in the announcement that we'll get to shortly, that we're using the phrase double taxation. And, you know, a lot of Americans think they're not doubled at double tax, but, but they are double tax because, you know, the very fact that the US has citizenship taxation means that they're completely subject to tax in both countries, right, which is the problem. You know, maybe that in some circumstances, in some circumstances, they don't pay twice tax on the same income, but, you know, there's a lot of circumstances where they do. So, you know, US citizenship taxation really means double taxation, doesn't it. Hold on. Yes. And also, if I, you know, may I use the example, if you want to know how I saw the idea, right. And if a English teacher working in Paris, very expensive city to live. And they pay her 120,000 a year, probably level salary. Okay. And now, even though first 100,000 exempt and go Sam in not going to tax her. However, for the 20,000, she will be taxed. But in order to file the 20,000 text return, actually file the entire text return is going to cost her more money for tax preparation, then what she owes on the 20,000. Yeah, that's the, you know, there's that problem and there's the problem of, you know, very, very penalty laid and reporting and that sort of stuff. I mean, this is a, this, let me put it this way. This is not a problem for Americans abroad who don't file the taxes. Of course, it's not a problem, right. But what's, what's interesting about this is that it's one of these rare situations in life, where it's a bigger problem for people who comply with the laws. That's correct. And the reason is if you are going to come back to the States, and eventually, you know, they catch up with you. Right. And so from that, it is an issue. Okay. Now, since present was talking about no tax on tips. Right. Think about no tax on tips is same kind of situation, not lots of money, very burdensome to track. Lots of people are not reporting in the States. Okay. And think about overseas Americans. Okay. And if you really want to track somebody to, you know, do the reporting and text preparation is going to be very expensive. And so that got me thinking, I have another shot. I need to talk to the pressure and make sure everybody understand what's going on, including his campaign, senior staff members and policy guys. Then think about present Trump promised no tax, social security income. Guess what was that concept double taxation. When you pay and go Sam tax when you're working, right, you paid already, when you receive social security, and you still have to pay again. Is this double taxation or not? Well, a lot of people would see it that way. That's for sure. But I think when things have in common solvents, not so much the technicalities, but you know, you talk about no tax on tips, the taxation of social security, you know, the unfair taxation of Americans abroad. These are really issues that affect, you know, it's an issue of fairness and relation in normal class, everyday people, right? Yeah. So I saw the present on the fairness. Okay. And I also saw the concept. He is big on America first. America first really means Americans first. Right. And so we spent billions now to help Ukraine. All right. And meanwhile, nobody helped overseas Americans. Nobody helped social security recipients. Right. So that's how I got it. Ending double taxation of overseas Americans. Well, you know, significant solemn because, you know, all these years, right? There's this been sort of, you know, people crying in the wilderness, cries unheard. You know, and what's interesting about this is, as far as I'm aware, I may be wrong, but as far as I'm aware, this is the first actual recognition of this is a problem from a presidential candidate and former president to boot. Am I right on that? That's totally right. And also, it's historical. I got involved in presidential politics since 1996, Bob Doar. Okay. And all those campaigns. This is the first campaign. Actually, I agree, but a this kind statement. By the way, I had a conversation with the president's campaign staff members. Guess what they told me for this kind of policy issue. The president's self Trump himself had to review it, have to approve it, have to give you the language you can use. So the language I got President Donald J Trump supports ending double taxation of overseas Americans period. That's why. So that language supporting ending double taxation for overseas Americans. What that really is, is a recognition of the problems that the taxation of overseas Americans causes for Americans, right? That's sort of what it is. It's a recognition of unfairness, because because of the fairness issue. Right. Yeah. So, I think it's important here. You know, I've been reading the social media comments after you're, you know, you're introducing this with your video a couple of days ago. And there's a lot of, well, you know, we want specifics and we want this and we want that and, and understandably, you know, well, we've been promising things before. I'm not sure that's true exactly but okay but, you know, I promise anything though. I'm not sure nominee from my party ever promised them anything. I think that's right. I think that's right. So, I think it's important to be clear here on, you know, because people say well what do this mean for me. Alright, so I'm going to suggest that what it means. And then I invite you to add is that, well, for the first time that I'm aware of, we have a presidential candidate who's aware of this as an issue, sees as an issue of fairness. I was willing to think about it and hopefully do something to rectify this unfairness. Would that be, is that accurate? Not only accurate, I would take one more step further. Okay. As you know, I supported President Trump in since 2016. I fought for his nomination because that to attempt attempts to hijack his nomination. You have to ask why. First time in 2016, I realized he is a different kind of candidate. To begin with, he was not a part of a strong, all part of DC, creature, say one thing and do something else. That to me is very important because, remember, I am a constitutionalist foremost. That means first constitutional principle says the consent of the governed consent of the governed concept go like this. I'm a candidate for president. I made it lots of campaign promises and got your vote and got elected. So I got the consent. And meanwhile, for next four years, how I govern really is important because to restore this constitutional principle, you have to deliver on your campaign promises. A doing Trump for years, he did that. So that's something I realized if I can get him agree to a position policy position for overseas Americans, which is ending double taxation. I can come him to deliver as next Trump tax reform package. And I will be part of no tax on tips, no tax on social security income. And the other thing is, when the White House wants something, two shops working together, the political shop, and the legislative policy shop working together, and also working with houseways means committee and Senate finance committee. Now, guess what, that's totally different program is not like holding bill standing alone. That's one very easy get killed. I'll never see that they would never come out of the committee, right. And not like when single senator could shoot down the whole thing, because he gets elected, he would have a mandate to do tax reform. Right. When he has that mandate, not a single senator, not a single congressman can kill that mandate, or can kill the tax reform package. But on the other hand, there will be variation, and how much I want is going to be there in an ideal world. Since you only pay tax where you receive or earn income, that means you don't pay and go Sam, if you don't have us income, you don't pay and go Sam, because you have no us income. Now, it also means you don't have to pay for tax expensive tax preparation. Well, basically, so it ends the current situation where US citizens are supposed to pay the US citizens who don't live in the United States are supposed to be paying the US tax on income they earn outside the United States, right. Exactly. So the way you describe is really interesting to me for a number of reasons, but let me start with this. So what I'm understanding you to be saying is that the attention to the tax situation of Americans abroad is really part of a package of just overall fairness. Here, let's have some fairness proposals to get rid of some of this unfairness. So that's good. Second thing that I think is interesting about this, because I can imagine listeners to this or commentators would say, well, what does it matter what President Trump thinks? You know, he doesn't make the laws and, you know, all this sort of stuff, but I would point out that a very large part of US tax laws through treasury regulations, which are completely under the control of President. Either directly or indirectly, and there's no doubt in my mind that a future president Trump could change this by regulation, the way that, you know, a few years ago, Laura Snyder of Karen Albert and I wrote a paper called a regulatory fix for citizenship taxation that outlines exactly how to do that, right? So, I mean, this is, this actually opens the door, I think, to this be achievable, because it's an endorsement from the president. Okay, people on a level that is possibly, that has never really been possible before, right? No, you know, I talk about my experience for last 10 years, what I have done. And one piece was missing. I didn't have President Trump, 2017, get it behind what I try to accomplish. And holding Congressmen holding did not have President Trump to get it behind. Well, I mean, so didn't have a package of necessary tax reform coming up either, right? Correct. And we missed that. Right. And we couldn't score the reform for overseas Americans. How much work costs. Right. So, I mean, this is, this is very good, very, very good, very positive, and very interesting news for Americans abroad, but I think it's important to manage expectations here. And again, you know, I sort of, again, what this is, is the president, the president's ear, the president's attention, the president's understanding that this is an issue of fairness that should be rectified. That's a different thing from precisely how, whether through legislation, regulation, or whatever, but, but you would agree with me. I think so. I mean, that the first step in getting anything done is to, well, want to get it done, right? Yes, it is I to get it done at a presidential level. So, I mean, I think that's really, really helpful. I think that's good news. And, you know, I think I hope the people understand both the potential tempered by the limitations as of today on this. But I mean, this is, this is really key stuff. And, you know, Solomon, I mean, I've known you for years and I know how hard, how hard you've worked on a lot of this stuff because I mean, we've been, we've done presentations and I think London, Greece, and, you know, various, various places together on this issue. So, I mean, I know how, how committed you've been to this. And, you know, I certainly thank you personally and generally on behalf of Americans abroad or overseas Americans or whatever you want to call them for your, your tenacious focus on this. So, this is great. I am excited. Well, I think, I think you should be. I mean, I think that this is, you know, it's funny from an outside point of view, people may think so what, but I mean, you know, this is a major achievement. You know, where we go from it. In many ways, I think this is the best chance of going anywhere, you know, because of where the energy is coming from, right? Yeah. And also think about this, right? You were right about double taxation is a constitutional issue as far as I'm concerned because overseas Americans being treated as second class citizen. No, no question about it. Absolutely no question about it. You know, so I mean, there may be, as Laura Snyder's written a lot of essays on this, I mean, there may be, and probably are equal protection issues at stake. Well, because, I mean, not only are Americans abroad tech, but they're actually tax more punitively, you know, specific because they live abroad. And that doesn't, that doesn't even include the reporting requirements. But, you know, as we sort of come to an end today, I really appreciate your work and dedication and achievements as, you know, certain Republicans overseas. So I thank you for that. But I think, you know, there have been other people who have been heavily involved in this. And I think it'd be really good maybe to give a shout out to some of them as well. You know, who are the people involved in the original fact, a legal action lawsuit. There was Stephen Kish, Donna Lane Nelson. Right. On the other ones, Mark Crawford. Right. And others, and others, and then I think in the, you know, the Republicans overseas sort of route, there's certainly been Jim Gossard, Mark Zell, Kim Keller, Patrick. Right. You know, ones I can think of, etc. So, you know, there's been a lot of people, I think, you know, doing what they think are small things, but turn out to be big things and maybe a small way. I mean, I think it's, I think it's the focus and somehow as we come doing in here, I'm reminded of, I think this comes from the Marines. The difficult we do today, the impossible takes a bit longer. Is that what the saying is. Totally. Yeah. And it took 10 years. When I finally got at that statement from President Trump, I realized it had been 10 years on our website on Republicans overseas website, our mission statement to parts to our mission statement. One is keep Republican voters abroad, politically informed. And second part of the mission is bring their concerns to Washington DC political leaders, and specifically our presidential candidates, not even nominee. Okay, candidates to educate those guys. Now guess what, we got an nominee issue a statement who happened to be a former president and got a track record to deliver. Oh, this is true. Well, and you know, and I, let me let's see where this goes. I mean, we're down to what I guess a month before the election. But regardless, what's significant here is that this is the first time that this important issue is putting knowledge on that step. And that is an achievement, a reality, regardless of what happens going forward, you would agree. And also, you will see Trump campaign circuit. And the current campaign circuit already up there. Take the message for us. We put our old Facebook as well as our website. So, when this kind of stuff coming out, you realize the entire campaign president himself, including his surrogates, and understand this is an important issue like you said, it's a recognition, unfairness of double taxation. And an important initiative for all Americans, regardless of political party. Yeah, this has been fantastic. I really enjoyed connecting with you today or resumes. We haven't talked for a while, and I thank you, and not only for your great work, but for getting up so early to have this discussion with me. And it's important where people would find ongoing discussion of this. So, there's the Republicans overseas.com website, right? Correct. And we have a Facebook as well. And I am being pretty it, because I have 200,000 followers. And so, it's nothing already. Okay, that's great. And I think that I believe that there's a Twitter handle for Republicans overseas tax. I think it's rep overseas tax. That's correct as well. So, all of this is great stuff. So, and do you have any sort of closing comments words of wisdom encouragement? Encouragement is definitely full for your conscience. Okay, I would ask all overseas Americans to vote for President Trump. And I also would say a promise made today and promise will be kept. Then, as Republicans overseas will follow through on the package side. Well, that's excellent. And specifically the recognition of the unfairness. I mean, this is just unprecedented. The wrecking. It's exciting. You know, that's really, it's really exciting. You know, 10 years, hard work, and lots of trials and fears, finding we got where we should be. Well, it's we're still on the road. We're still on the road, but we're on the right road in the right direction. Sound good. Hold them. Okay. Very good. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye bye.
