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A Savior is Born | The One They Call Christ E3
The birth narratives about Jesus in Matthew and Luke have both commonalities and differences. This episode explores these and also discusses the unique goals each evangelist had in their description of this monumental event. We also address the challenge of reconciling the timeline of Jesus’ birth, the visit of the Magi, Herod’s murderous decree, and the journey of Jesus’ family to and from Egypt.
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- Broadcast on:
- 07 Oct 2024
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- other
(upbeat music) - The Tech Support, the podcast about the delete church of Christ where we encourage and equip people to interact with the biblical techs. We are your host, Brian the Masters and Tim Martin. - We're continuing our series, the one they call Christ today with our episode about the birth narratives and what's entitled a Savior is born. And so today we're gonna kind of go through the two gospel accounts, Matthew and Luke and what they record about Jesus' birth and the time leading up to his birth. And we'll talk about the differences between Matthew's account and Luke's account, the parallels between the two of them, maybe some issues, some people have raised in these differences between them, but also paying more close attention to why does Matthew include the things that he does? Why does he say the things? Why does he quote things? And also thinking about Luke and how he said at the beginning of his narrative that he's kind of collecting together things and trying to give the office an accurate account, how might that affect why he included the things that he included? - Yeah, Tim, I would say if this is your first episode with us, I'd encourage you to pause and go back and listen to last week's episode where we kind of walk through all four of the different gospels and how they interact with one another 'cause we'll be building on that when we look at the birth narrative there. So that may be helpful to you. - Okay, yeah. - All right, so Tim, let's begin with Matthew. - That's a good place to start. - We are going to skip the genealogy stuff because we will talk about some of that in an upcoming episode when we look at Jesus' family. - Yeah. - Same thing when we're over in Luke, we won't really talk about John the Baptist and some of that stuff as well that's mixed in there. - Or Luke's genealogy. - Yeah, or Luke's genealogy as well. So that's why we're skipping ahead on some of that. We will pick up here in Matthew chapter one, verse 18. It reads, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way when his mother Mary had been betrotved to Joseph." That's a word you used all the time, right? - That's right, that's right. Engaged, it's a new revised anniversary, which is a lengthy conversation, but we can kind of mention what that means, a little bit something different than what we may think about it today. - Yeah, you're the romantic guy, so you go ahead. - Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, you can ask my wife. - You can cover that. - That proposal was uber romantic, but you know-- - What does that mean? How's that different from what people understand? - You know, I'm not expert in this area, but in the concept of it, it's almost like he even, if it's going in verse 19, when he finds out she's pregnant and he says he could divorce her quietly or put her away, he would be the literal meaning of that word quietly. You know, this is not Joseph's marriage, he went to the drive-through and he fell in love over a bunch of dates and you know, he got down on one knee and gave her a ring and then they had to plan the wedding and reserve the venue and all that. You know, most likely, Mary and Joseph's marriage was arranged between their parents, which would be very normal in that day and time and very normal even in that area in the east today. And being engaged and being married almost close to the same thing. I mean, it's a concept of being, having to put her away because she's pregnant. And so there's a pretty good chance Mary was very young, maybe even in her mid to late teens and Joseph may have been a little bit older. It does seem that Joseph passed away before she does, but that can be for a lot of reasons. But, you know, being betrothed in the same way and just so, you know, we get engaged today so that we can start wedding planning or that we begin that commitment. Say, okay, we are going to throw this things in together and it's a contract. And in ways we're saying that contract. And so if dad goes and spends a bunch of money on the wedding and the man dumps his daughter after he's engaged to or he may sue her for that breach of that engagement contract. And so I think it probably means a little bit something different here than it does in the Western world today. I had to pay some kind of bride price for her. There are a lot of arrangements that we may see. - But one thing to note though, with that, there is this commitment to one another. That's not easily like broken up. - It's going to cost Joseph money if he brings it up one day. - But they're not married yet in the fullest sense of how they would be interacting with one another as well. - Otherwise he wouldn't worry about it being pregnant. - Yeah. - So anyways, that's a difference we see there. Another thing that we have here, we see where he's referred to as Joseph, son of David. We see David mentioned a lot here in the birth narrative. Why is that, Tim? Like out of everybody in the Old Testament, why bring up David so much? - Well, I think messianic expectations and prophecy relate to a future Messiah, a Christ to be from the line of David and to continue that throne, not just for a blood line, but also, you know, David's told, you know, your descendants will never fail to sit on the throne. And we know that's not literally the case because there was a long period of time where no descendant of David sat on any throne in Jerusalem because there was no throne in Jerusalem for a long time, under whether you wanna say it under Babylonian Persian or Greek rule, and maybe even to some extent Roman rule. But the son of David, I think means more like year of the blood line and of the, I don't know why you call it, royal descendant, a royal blood line of David to do that. And I don't think that Luke may mention that because the angel doesn't address Joseph in that narrative. He addresses Mary. - Yeah, I think Luke still refers to Jesus, Jesus' connection to David. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and the genealogy and stuff. Not necessarily Joseph. And so we'll talk a little bit about that when we talk about genealogies. - Yeah, so one thing to note here is the dialogue is with Joseph and Matthew. So that'll be something, just throw that in the back of your mind there. - Angel tells Joseph that the name of this baby should be called Jesus. Tim, what does Jesus mean? - Yashua in Hebrew, which means the Lord is my salvation. And so it makes sense that he says in New Revised Standard says, you're gonna name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. And you know, I thought about this, we were thinking about preparing for this podcast. We read through that. I'm gonna say, oh, that's so nostalgic. That's how much fun is it gonna be that Joseph and Mary, how sweet, y'all are gonna give birth to the Messiah. This is like life-shattering, or life-changing information here. I mean, this is like, Joseph just got hit in the face with a brick. I mean, you are going to be, you and Mary are gonna give birth to this being that's been anticipated for probably centuries now. And there's all sorts of steep tradition about a Messiah anticipation. And you're gonna be it. I mean, we sometimes read that and it's like, oh, they're probably like, they probably smiled and looked at each other and thought, you know what? We're gonna give birth to the Messiah. I mean, this is freak out information right here that you're giving. And not only that is, you're gonna be, you're told by an angel of the Lord. It's Gabriel over that talks to Mary and Luke, but man, this is like- - I would have a lot of questions. - I have a lot of questions about weekend plans. - That's right. - Like, how, what is this gonna do to us? I mean, you know what I mean? How's this gonna affect our lives? But just a million things would come to mind here when you get told that right there. - Yeah, I think Joseph's faith is overlooked as well. - Yeah. - Like to receive this information. - Yeah. To receive this information, one about his soon to be wife, like being pregnant and being pregnant with the- - Holy Spirit. - Holy Spirit and the Messiah. You know, I can just- - It's pretty heavy. - Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah. So in verse 23 here, we have where he's talking about of the prophet, where it talks about the whole, the virgins shall conceive and bear a son and they shall call his name a manual. How is there any difference between a manual and Jesus? Like what? - I mean, the name doesn't mean the same thing. I don't know what the root of a manual in Hebrew is or go over and looking at that. This is Isaiah 7, 14. Most of the discussion about this verse is the word, all my and the word is used to print those. It's used for virgin here. Most of the discussion is about that and it's a silly discussion because most young women were expected to be virgins, so there's no reason to think about it. Some translations say young woman over in Isaiah 7, 14, which is a very accurate translation of that word. But I don't know enough, and I haven't looked and see what does a manual, obviously it means God with us in Hebrew. I don't know, but that's not the same name as Yashua. And I'd have to go see what that is translated from in Hebrew. I'm sure it's transliterated from something that sounds like Immanuel, but any time it's got ill in it, that's gonna be, anytime there's a Yah or an ill in a Hebrew name, it's got something to do with Yashua, your God, and so. - Which I don't think, and I could be wrong here. I'm not the smartest guy, but I don't think Immanuel, Immanuel is used that often after the birth narrative. - I don't know if it's ill. - Like I can't think of another time, yeah, where that term is related to Jesus. - Why are you thinking about it? I do a little search for it here, my friend. Oh, look at you, been all tech savvy. - Tech savvy. - All right, so here's one time. - Just one time in Greek, by the way. - All right. - Side. - We don't know, they might have caught a man, Jesus Immanuel like three or four times a week. - Yeah, recorded, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, recorded, yeah. - All right, so in chapter two, we have a new thing happen. So after Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in the days of Herod the King, behold, wise men from the east come to Jerusalem. And what's interesting about here is, you have the star being mentioned. You know, Tim and I were talking about this. My background, we didn't focus that much on the birth of Jesus. I mean, obviously I knew it occurred, but like, I didn't hear a lot of sermons about it. You know, like I didn't-- - It's off limits. - Yeah, oh, there's different reasons for that. Tim's background was different. You know, he's much more familiar with-- - Oh yeah, we had a singing Christmas tree at my church. (laughing) We actually, we actually celebrated Jesus' birth. Yeah, we don't talk about that much. - Yeah, so it's interesting to me, and that's one reason why we wanted to focus on Jesus' birth, is a lot of people aren't as familiar with it as they should be, or they're familiar with a commercialized version, or the two accounts kind of thrown in together, and they aren't actually clear, well, this is what Matthew says, and this is what Luke said. So hopefully we provide some clarity here. - And I would confine that discussion to most people in the restoration movement, don't. This is an uber-familiar narrative to people outside the restoration movement, because it is talked about every December. - Yeah, no, what I meant by that-- - But it is commercialized, you're right. - Yeah, I meant the difference between Matthew and Luke. - Oh yeah, definitely the question. - I think most people in the world probably think shepherds and wise men could be the same people even. You know, like-- - Oh yeah, no, no, no, you're so far away, shit. - That's what I meant by that, yeah. - All right, imagine I would be very insulted to hear that. - Yeah, so what's up with this star? - Well, we don't, I can't stand when people try to prove things by going back and saying, well, this comet appeared or this supernova appeared. This, this omen, this, you know, thing that appears here is something very special. It's something supernatural, it's from God. To say that it's means the same as some periodic comet that comes around or a supernova that happened that's just part of the natural processes of the universe. To me is a little bit, I don't wanna call it insulting or maybe even sacrilegious, is these astrologers, which is whose wise men kind of is a really bad translation. Magi means like a magician astrologer, people that study the sky, study many things, probably some kind of Persian origin, new the stars, new, you know, the, the, how they moved and different things. This is something special and unusual. And it moves, it moves over the place that Jesus is born. And so a comet doesn't do that. - It doesn't disappear. - And doesn't mean that's the difference between what we think. - That's right, we typically don't have comets that last for months and months, and we're gonna talk about maybe even more than a year here in this time in doing that. And so I think, I know people try to do that, try to prove the Bible's true. I don't know why we just can't accept the fact that God puts some sort of supernatural phenomenon in the sky, that these experts in looking at the sky said, something is different and they deduced, it's an omen, that means a king has been born west of here. And so that's when they go, and that's when they go talk to and say, "Where has been born king of the Jews?" Which is a very strange thing for them to anticipate when king of the Jews, it's not like the Jews really had a king like maybe say like, you know, we would used to be the Persian king. They were really under Roman hegemony at this time. And so, but it's not unusual for that to be a portent, something in the sky of either good or bad is gonna happen. So somehow they recognize that it indicates a king, and we don't know why they do that. - Why do you think Herod is troubled by this? I mean, obviously this baby's not gonna kill him right away. - Right, kill him right away. - No, no, no, but children can take the throne very, very early on. I mean, like I think we think about Josiah, took the throne of Israel, or excuse me of Judah, at eight years old. So it doesn't take too long. - Well, that's true, yeah. - But keep in mind, Herod may not only be worried about his kingship, but also his bloodline. Because it is true, after King Herod dies somewhere, you know, there's a lot of arguments about when Herod died, but I think he died about four BCE. His nephews and his people of his bloodline do take different areas of throne. And so I think he's worried that it's gonna overthrow his bloodline and/or his own kingship. I don't think Herod died a week after Jesus was born. So he may have been concerned about losing his throne and/or losing the posterity of Herod's bloodline losing the throne. - Yeah, so he inquires, hey, what do we know about this? And from the chief priests and scribes of people, and they tell them, hey, where the Christ is supposed to be born, and that is in Bethlehem of Judea. So it was written by the prophet. What I think's interesting here, Tim, is that some, some of these seem to be anticipated things, that people are aware of, or they were looking for. Other times, which we're gonna see this later, the out of Egypt part, to me doesn't seem to be something that they anticipated, but the writer looks back on something that occurred in the Old Testament and applies it to the Messiah. And this is an area that I wish we knew more about, of what exactly did the Jews anticipate before the birth of Jesus? Like in that 100 years before then, you know, like in that time period, I wish we just knew a little bit more of like what they called me. You and I knew a little bit more. I mean, a lot is known about that, but it's also, it would depend on, well, which sect of Jews are you asking? Are you asking the people who wrote the documents we found at Qumran, or are we talking about people in Judea, who are we talking about? - Yeah, and I know there's evidence out there, but I think a lot of it got destroyed. - Yeah, some of these things are not Messianic fulfillment prophecies that have been handed down, like we talked about. If we're talking about a suffering servant passage from Isaiah or something like that, those traditionally we find to be very Messianic, but the out of Egypt, I called my son Hosea, and Hosea is talking about Israel coming out of Egypt in the Exodus. There's no question about that, but we'll talk a little bit more about that fuller sense. But one thing we didn't mention when we talked about King Harry was frightened, text also tells all of Jerusalem was. And I can understand that, 'cause obviously Herod asked when is the Christ the Messiah gonna be born? Not just the king, but the Messiah. That's gonna maybe set the world on its ear, and it does, but they're worried about it. It's interesting that they're frightened. Do you think that if Jerusalem heard the Messiah was being born, they would be celebrating. And so I don't know why they're frightened for. And so that's very interesting. It seems when Jesus walks into Jerusalem one day, they're all excited that he's there and laying down palm fronds in front of him and praising Hosanna, King, and David is back. I don't know why they're afraid. This is all of Jerusalem, but I can see where this would be like, man, what's about to happen? We're gonna be at war with the Romans. I can see there would be fear. I don't know what I was meant by that, but. - Yeah, I got distracted. Did you say turn the world on its ear? - Yeah, what's wrong with that? Is it the world on its ear, is that wrong? Put it on its side and knock it down? What is it? What would it should I say? What's the correct idioms there? - I'm sure that's a common saying. I just. - Turn the world upside down and we'll go with our VBS, VBS. - I'm used to that, but turn the world on its ear. I was like. - Yeah, you never heard of it. - I don't think I've ever said that, but yeah. - Well, they don't teach you that in Indiana. - Yeah. - Anyways, I got distracted there. All right, what happens next here? What's some other key things that we see here in Matthew's account? - Yeah, in Matthew, we see Herod calls the Magi to him and says, "Hey, when did the star appear?" We don't have their answer, but he says, "Go to Bethlehem." He's learned that the Messiah is supposed to be born in Bethlehem and search diligently. And when you find him, bring me words. So I may go and pay homage. And I think that's tongue in cheek from Herod. - You don't trust him. - I don't trust Herod, especially based on knowing the rest of the story. They set out, went out the star. They seen it until it stopped over the place where the child was. And when they saw the star and stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy and they go into this house and they see the child with Mary's mother. So they're no longer in this livestock area that we see over in Luke. And we'll talk about some of that, but I don't know how long it took them. They don't, unfortunately, the only context we have to help answer what did the wise man say about the timing of the star is many people think it may have been a year or two. Because Herod decrees that all children be killed that are two years and younger. Now, if we say it was two years after Jesus' birth for the magic I get there, it presents some issues with trying to reconcile this birth narratives with Luke. And we'll talk a little bit about that. But I don't think Jesus was a couple of days old when this happened. It just doesn't seem to be the case now. It could be because the house may have been adjacent or connected to the livestock keeping area that we talk about. But the worst thing here is that they bring in gifts suitable for a king, the gold, frankincense and myrrh. We have precious. - Gotta be only three of them, right? - Gotta be only three. That's probably gonna be a three mad job because they bring three gifts in that way. I think you're probably traveling a group bigger than three. But I do not think modern day nativity scenes are accurate in depicting the mad job there at the same time the shepherds are. We know the shepherds there the same night. 'Cause that's what the angels tell them. And we'll talk about that over in Luke. But unfortunately, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph and said, hey, flee to Egypt. And these mad job get worn in the dream. Don't go back to Herod like he asked you to do. Y'all hit the road. Don't go back and tell him anything, but. - Yeah, and the way it opens in chapter one, it gives the impression that Jesus was born when they start this journey. - Yes. - You know, so like, time wise, it just doesn't make. - Yeah, and you don't watch. If they're in what we would call modern day Iraq or the area of Babylon or somewhere around it, it's not like they're gonna get there in two or three days. I mean, it's a long walk from the, there's nothing to the east of Israel but desert. I mean, so if you get all the way to the area of Babylon, then you've got to follow the Euphrates River Valley and come down from the north and following the Orante's River and down to the Jordan. It's a pretty good poke to get from, if they're from ancient region of ancient Persia, then it's something that would take them quite a while to get there. They didn't jump on a Southwest flight and get over there very quickly. - Yeah. After that, they have a dream that tells them not to return to Herod and they depart. And then we also see after that, an angel of the Lord appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him to flee to Egypt and remain there until further notice, 'cause of Herod and what he's about to do. So Joseph and the family, they depart to Egypt and remain there until the death of Herod. And that was to fill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet. We alluded to that earlier out of Egypt. I've called my son. And then how long they're in Egypt? - Don't know. - Don't know. - One thing I thought about it just now, it just came to my mind about the Magi. How do they know the king of the Jews was to be born? One thing we need to consider is, let's just assume they're from the area around ancient Babylon. Don't forget, a lot of Jews were taken to Babylon, earned the Neo-Babylonian conquest when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed Jerusalem. They did not all return when Cyrus II of Persia said, "You can go home now." For example, Daniel, we know it didn't return and we know many others didn't return. I don't know if I've ever read this, but it just occurred to him in my mind. There is a possibility that some of the Jews that remained in Persia and persisted there all the way to New Testament times may have had some Messianic expectations in their mind or began to develop them or shared them with Judean Jews and maybe the Magi knew some of the Jewish tradition and some of the Jewish expectations. Maybe they did know something about the Jewish religion and these Messianic expectations. That's speculative, I know, but it's certainly possible. - Interesting here. - Well, I've looked into the mind of a PhD. - That just came to my mind right there. - Could be an upcoming scholarly article we see here, but no, that was, I'm proud of you, Tim. That was a good thought there. - No, I just thought, I mean, it's not out of the realm that they would be aware of that, especially when there are people who study those things and probably do a lot about all kinds of different cultures in their way, so that's a possibility. I'm sure somebody's probably written on that. - All right, before we leave Matthew, anything else you want to highlight here or mention? - No, Herod croaks at some point. And like I said, there's debate whether or not that happened in what we call one BCE or four BCE. I don't really think it makes any difference. People worry about that a lot, but it makes a difference in when Jesus was born. I don't think Jesus was born in zero, at year zero myself, but he died and then they're told they can go back. And then it says they go to Nazareth because they're warned again in a dream. Joseph's had a lot of exciting dreams. Don't go back to Judea because Arkelaus is there and he probably, his father Herod, he's probably still maybe hunting down. It just seems to me like it's been a while. You know, like I said, we can talk about that when we try to reconcile these two different ones. - Yeah, random thing here, Tim, before we leave, 30 seconds, what's the difference between a Naz right and Jesus being from Naz right now? - No, I've heard so many people say, Jesus wasn't a Naz right. You know, we can find a Naz right vow in the book of Numbers in the Old Testament and Samson's a good example of someone who took that vow, maybe even Samuel as well. I'm trying to go back in my mind. I can't remember everything. We know Samson took that vow about not cutting their hair and all kinds of different things, not drinking, you know, anything from fruit of the vine. And so a Naz right was an Israelite who took a limited term vow. And it seems in Samson, it was almost like a lifetime vow that he really didn't get a choice. It was his, Manoa, his father that was told he was gonna be a Naz right from birth, but typically the way it's outlined in the Torah is it can be a temporary thing. Like you might, if you were an ancient Israelite, you might say, I'm gonna take this vow as a Naz right. We ain't real sure exactly what Naz rights did, but being from Nazareth, a city that didn't exist at all when the Naz right vow came out and being a Naz right or two different animals. But I know some people think about, one of the reasons is we have no idea in Matthew 2, 23, what prophet or anybody said he will be called a Nazarene. Maybe it was some, of course, we don't have every prophet that every prophet side in Israel recorded in the Old Testament. So somewhere along the way the prophet said about a Messiah, he will be called a Nazarene and that's it. But that's not the same thing as being a Naz right. I don't have any indication that Jesus, if he was a Naz right, he did not continue that vow all the way through his death because he drank fruit of the vine with his disciples in the upper room. And so there's no reason to think that he was a Naz right. - Yeah, two, definitely two different things. - All right, let's flip over to Luke here. We'll pick up in Luke 1, 26 is what we're gonna look at. Out of the gate, we see a difference already. And it says in the six month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to the city of Galilee named Nazareth to a virgin. So we see the similar, you got Joseph and Mary, but in Matthew we see Joseph as being the one that is spoken to by the angel. Here in Luke, we are going to see the focus more on Mary and a dialogue between Mary and Gabriel. - And a lot more dialogue. - And a lot more dialogue. - A lot more dialogue. - So they're gonna talk, you see Mary's humility and her shock as well. Like, wait, who am I, like there's no way, like I am unworthy of this, like who can it be? But then you also see, like Joseph, faithfulness too, if this is the will of God, like, yes, like I'm here as a servant of God. We have her song and her visit to Elizabeth, but we won't cover that part of it. Anything you wanna highlight in that first kind of... - Well, Luke 1, 32 and 33, just imagine here in this, he gets the same thing in 31. Bear with son, you're calling him Jesus. We don't have the line about saving people from their sins. He says, "He will be great and be called "the son of the most high. "The Lord God will deliver him to the throne "of his ancestor David. "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever "and of his kingdom, there'll be no end." Now, we know that that's all very figuratively speaking. No, but I don't think Mary knew that. I don't think Mary knows. Oh, you're talking about the church one day and all it means. She doesn't know that. - Mary, did you know? - Mary, did you know Mary did you? - Can you imagine what that would feel like to know? And of course, her first question is, "Well, wait a minute now. "I know how this works. "I'm not even having sex with a man and doing it. "And that's when she gets informed." Just as over in Matthew, the Holy Spirit is the one who brings about conception in Mary. I don't wanna say the Holy Spirit's the Father here, but I mean, it's born of God. And when you think about son of God, that's literally true. Because the Holy Spirit is God and it is who that. And it gets told at the end of 35, he will be holy and he will be called son of God. Ooh, we, can you imagine just hearing that? That is amazing. - Oh yeah, like I can't. - Yeah, that's just boy. - I can't imagine what all went through my mind. - Mary didn't go back to sleep if she was having a dream. She having a dream, I can't remember. Gabriel that comes to her right. - I don't think a dream is mentioned here, but I could be wrong for Joseph. Like dreams mentioned in Matthew's, but he came to her and said, it's almost like Gabriel comes to Nazareth. Yeah, it doesn't say that it's a dream or something here that I can see just off in the text, but if it was a dream, she didn't go back to sleep at night, I didn't tell you that much. That would have been a little bit to think about. Pretty heavy. - Yeah, I love her song, but we won't. We won't. - Yeah, the one with the difficult, it's called. - All right, so let's pick up in Luke chapter two here. Pretty much all Luke two covers the birth of Jesus here. We also see a difference here, 'cause it says in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus. So Tim, why do you, and maybe we're jumping the gun here, why is it so different already out of the gate? Like Matthew talks about Herod. Herod's not mentioned anywhere here, but now we have two different people that's gonna be mentioned here at the beginning. Why do you think that is what, how should we approach this as we go through here and when we see so many different things? - You know, I think about it from a source critical point of view, neither one of these men were witnesses, obviously at any of these things. Maybe you're likely not even been born at this time, depending on what Matthew's age was relative to Jesus and Luke as well, but I think about, Luke seems very historical, and it seems to be the things that he got are probably pulled from all the sources that he says he uses in Luke chapter one, but he seems very historical. For example, we have Octavian, or here called Caesar Augustus, and so we do know that he was Caesar in that timeframe. He was the first Caesar of the Roman world. Julius Caesar was not ever Caesar actually, or ever in the same role as Augustus, but his nephew, Octavian here. We also see some dating form Chironius being the governor of Syria, and you understand that the governor of Syria, Syria was an area that included Judea under its entire, we almost like think about a state and then maybe a county, and having different authority over it. And so, Cornelius being the governor over that, he would have been whoever was, I can remember, who was Pontius Pilate of that day in there at his boss. He seems very historical in the way he lays it out, magnifies Jesus. I mean, son of the most high, all these things that he's these accolades that are told by Gabriel to Mary seems, we don't see a lot of fulfillment concern here. We don't see these prophecies, if you will, reused or reimagined and coming to their full sense, even you might see, like we do in Matthew, that just seems to be very historically natured. And this happened, this happened, this happened. - And they seem to be good Jews. - Yes, they are good law-abiding Jews. They circumcised their baby today, they go, Mary goes up to be purified after her 40-day period that we see spelled out in Torah. They seem to be very obedient to you, very good people. They're just a very good biography of these folks here. - All right, so we also see a difference here. So they go there. - You go to Bethlehem, you're talking about? - Yeah, to Bethlehem. And then at that time, let me see where I want to pick up. In verse six, and while they were there, the time came for her to give birth, and she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in a swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger because there was no place for them in the end. Tim, I know what most people think of when they hear manger and in, and I know what people see at like Christmas time and stuff like that. Are we confident that what we think of is what probably occurred there, and what could be some differences? - We southerners always say Jesus was born and born. You know, and in a way he was born in a place that was used for keeping animals. That Mary very well be a structure that was contiguous to the house as well. There's, you know, it's interesting. We're back in Joseph's hometown, if you will, to get this. And then perhaps even Mary's hometown, but I think definitely Joseph's hometown. And it's ridiculous to think that Joseph didn't have any relatives there. And, but he can't find a place to stay. Well, 'cause everybody's back in town because this census has been decreed, and so we're back in town. So I really think it'd be better, and the nearby standard version, I think does a better job of translating the word at the end of seven as guest room. So there's only so much hospitality. You and I talked about this word that's translated in or guest room, also appears in the same Greek word as used when Jesus is with his disciples. - Have that been passed over? - Staying in Luke. You have Luke 2211 to be that verse there. - And it's important when we see somebody, the same author using the same language. Sometimes we compare and we try to do word studies on how Matthew uses the word and how Paul uses the word. Well, that may not necessarily be consistent, but Luke, the same author using the same word, and then in the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10, when he gives the innkeeper money to take care of the injured guy, the word there is different than these words. And it does be more akin to what we might think of as a motel, but we don't need to think about a three-story holiday inn here being the case. I really think we're probably talking about, there was nowhere for the people in Bethlehem to give hospitality in their home to Joseph and Mary because the rooms were already full, which makes for a sense. If they had an upper room or a guest room, and likely the barn, if you will, or maybe even a structure right next to the house picture. These people don't own plantations here in big, 100 acre farms where they got a barn out. And so Jesus was probably laid in some side of feeding trough for animals or some kind of thing that was used for the purposes of animal husbandry. - And animals could be going in and out of the-- - Maybe they were walking around. - Yeah, they could be walking in out of the home that we have. That's something that we see even in European history. It was very common for that to be the case because you just don't have a bunch of property. I mean, it's not the case. Now, some people have, I've seen some scholars say that Joseph and Mary weren't welcome in Bethlehem by Joseph's family because she's pregnant and was pregnant before they were fully united in marriage. And I don't know if anybody else gets told the story and Joseph be like, oh yeah, it's no problem. We didn't have six. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Okay, I mean, people looking at Joseph like he's gone off his rocker and sent it. - But I feel like it'd be a big deal to deny hospitality though, based on what I know. - It would be. Now, whether it's deny, the text indicates that there was just no more room. Maybe Joseph and Mary were late getting to town. - The theory you were throwing out there were in what I saw. - Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you that not being that, but it just seems like there's no room. Maybe Joseph and Mary are late getting to Bethlehem. Everybody else get there first. First come, first serve. And so I'm a little beloved. I'm like you, I'm reticent to say that this is because of some discrimination against Joseph and Mary. I think it's more like it says that just, they got there too late and didn't have a place in the guest room and so-- - But most likely still on property at a relative's house. You know, like-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think this is-- - Not out of the middle house or the prairie and they got all this farmland around them and everything. This is a town that they're in, so. - Yeah. All right, what else do we see as being different from Matthew to Luke? And Matthew, we see the ones that are familiar with the stars that are coming because of the star. In Luke here, we see in verse eight and in the same region, there were shepherds out in the field keeping watch over their flock that night and the angel of the Lord appeared to them and spoke to them directly. And then they go and visit the birth of Jesus. So we gotta make sure we see those as two different groups of people 'cause I know sometimes they get kind of lumped all in together and being there all at the same time. So we know from this that, I'm trying to think exactly where it was in that verse, that it seems like they're there immediately when Jesus is born. Like he's still there in the manger. Tim, do you know offhand where that verse is? - Well in verse 12, it says there will be, this will be a sign for you. You will find the child wrapped in bands of cloth and lying in a manger. Okay, so we just read that he was put in a manger. - Oh, verse 16. That's where that actually occurred to him as well. - They're actually going and doing it, but they're nearby, you know, somewhere in the field and able to get there that same time. And it's interesting that they, he's told, they're told it's a savior in the city of David. So they obviously know that's Bethlehem and he's gonna be the Messiah or the Christ, the Lord. They're not told anything about a king. And I think Matthew's focus is on Jesus as a king. And I think that the entire book of Matthew focuses on Jesus's kingship over his kingdom. - Yeah, and what I find interesting there around 17, there still seems to be some like unknown here among the people that are around there. And what I mean by that is it says, and when they saw it, they may know the saints that had been told them concerning this child, and all who heard it, wondered at what the shepherds told them, but Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. And the shepherds returned glorifying and praising God for all that they heard and seen as it had been told to them. So I just would love to know kind of what is everyone's understanding. - Yeah, what are they knowing about that? - I mean, obviously they get glimpse of being what's revealed here, but yeah. - If you lived in Bethlehem, we know that there's some familiarity with the fact that the Messiah is going to be born in Bethlehem from, you know, what the chief priests and scribes tell Herod about that. And this is an interesting motif that continues, praising God for all they've heard and seen. That's what Simeon's going to do. And that's what Anna's going to do in this same birth narrative that will come up with. - Yeah, walk us through that. Tell us what happens here next. - Will we go fast forward that? They do conceive Jesus and they name, excuse me, circumcised Jesus on the eighth day, we see in verse 21 in chapter two in Luke, and he was called Jesus. I think it's pretty traditional that the Jewish children are named the day that they are circumcised. And again, Luke says, hey, remember his name that because that was even what he was supposed to be called before that was the case. And then we have a period of time between his birth. I think it's 40 days that's prescribed in Torah for a woman who's given birth to go up and be purified for a sacrifice and also dedicate their first born male to the Lord. And I've never been clear exactly on what that meant. But we begin to get in some very Samuel-like language here and occurrences of being brought up to the temple at birth and being dedicated to the Lord. And then after being weaned, raised in the temple, being brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord type of stuff. But they go up and they make this sacrifice and they encounter two, it seems older folks. Definitely, Anna was an older woman. Simeon of righteous devout, he was looking forward to the constellation of Israel. I bet there can be a lot of study about exactly what that phrase means in Luke 25, 225. It had been revealed to him supernaturally by the spirit. He wouldn't die until he'd seen the Lord's Messiah. And so he does see him, he sees the child Jesus, he takes him in his arms, he appraises God, he gives us doxology to God glorifying him. So, hey, I can die now. My eyes have seen your salvation, a light of revelation. It's interesting to the Gentiles. He says in verse 32, "And for glory to your people Israel." I think Luke's gospel was written in a way that Gentiles could understand it. Maybe not so much as maybe like some people say, Mark seems to be written to a non-Palestinian audience, but it's interesting that he says that, that Simeon says that and it's just right there to the non-Jews that he's gonna be that way. And they're amazed, he blessed the child. Then he encounters this prophetess, Anna, and she has been a seer. She had lived with her husband 70 years and she was a widow to the age of 84. I knew she was older, and that's much older in that day and time. And she never left the temple and she began to praise God about the child and speak about the child to all who were looking for redemption. So news is spreading about Jesus. And then next thing we know, they've gone back to Nazareth. So somewhere in here we gotta figure out where was the visit of the Magi and the massacre of the Innocence and the flight to Egypt has to be in here somewhere. And maybe it is right between the word Lord and they returned in verse 39. You know, it's in verse 39, Luke chapter two, "When they'd finished everything required by the law of the Lord, this purification ritual, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth." Well, the babies were killed in Bethlehem. They fly to fly. Their flight to Egypt was from Bethlehem. So it presents some quandaries here about, when do we insert some of Matthew's information and narrative and history into Luke? - Yeah. And that's why I was listening to last week's episode. I think it's important for us to remember some of those principles there that we talked about that. We approached the Gospels from a chronological, tell me exactly how everything happened in order. That's the only way that we would record somebody's life to come to understand this part. And that's, from our understanding, that's not what the Gospels are. Obviously they include history, but it seems to be that there's two different messages, two different emphasis in these writings. Like, and we see that in the way that we communicate in sermons and stuff, like we may focus on somebody's life and really highlight the faith of David or this part, Jesus is humble, and only pick and choose different parts of it that highlight the humility of the individual. So like, we experience that in the way that we communicate theology and different things about God today. But when we come to like, just reading through, we always think everything's just written from point A to point B to point C, you know, like. So one thing that I thought was interesting here, Tim, is I read one article that talked about how Matthew, they compared him a lot to the idea of like Moses and in the emphasis on the king. I think you had referenced that of like the power where Luke is more about the priest and maybe more Samuel and stuff like that. So I think some of that kind of stuff is interesting to see, okay, well, what is the author really trying to accomplish or to communicate about Jesus here? Anything you want to add to that before we start looking at the-- - We see that. - We see also this Exodus typology in Matthew, you know, going to Egypt and coming back out of Egypt when it's safe, you know, and returning back to Israel. Well, that's what happened with Israelites. They went into Egypt. It's, I'll tell you, somebody is going to be listening. It's like, oh, it's plain as a nose on your face. They went to Egypt between Jesus' circumcision and her purification. Didn't nobody walk from Bethlehem to Egypt, set up camp in Egypt, wait on Herod to die and then go back to, in 32 days. Okay, that's a ridiculous thought to think that that happened. It definitely, I mean, you're just timing. You're just telling me that how to-- - If you hold that belief, Tim still loves you. - I still love him, but I mean, let's be senseical about they didn't get on a bus to Egypt. I mean, it's not easy travel with a newborn child and the obviously are there. Matthew presents for an extended period of time until Herod dies, which may have been, I don't know how long that is. I really think it probably happened sometime between the middle of verse 39 and the last half of verse 39. But one of the problems that we get here is, and it's a self-made issue is, we forget what you were talking about, that these books are written for a theological purpose. Now Luke definitely is trying to tell the office the story of Jesus and the narrative about Jesus, but he's not just trying to tell him that because he says, because I want you to know about the things you believed in. I think the office was a convert to Christianity. And so he's not concerned with the history of Jesus, he's concerned about the things that Jesus did, because they don't really spend a lot of time on the history of Jesus. Next thing you know, Jesus is 12 years old, next thing you know, he's 30 years old. And so it's because of the apologetic obsession with proving the historicity of the Bible that people get all tied up about these things. And I think that's a waste of time, because something doesn't become inspired because it's historically accurate. If that's the case in every civil war journal you've got written by a soldier in the civil war, where I've got the autograph edition of it, means it's inspired because it's historically accurate. That's fine, there's plenty of things. The code of Hammurabi, everything can be historically accurate, but it doesn't make it inspired literature. If so, we're taking faith away from it all together. I don't think these guys are trying to write journalistic history. And I think most scholars probably agree with that. They're trying to-- - And two gospels don't even include the birth-- - Two gospels don't even include the narrative at all. And so the birth narrative is not uber important because Mark doesn't write about it at all. And neither does John, who is absolutely trying to prove that Jesus is the son of God. That's the whole purpose he wrote is gospel. And so-- - And like the transfiguration, the Lord said like-- - Yes. - Just 'cause something's important doesn't mean-- - It's only included in everything. - Nobody includes, but John, a guy being raised from the dead and Lazarus. I mean, who would not include that? Especially when Matthew was an eyewitness of it. And so there's reasons things. And I think the Holy Spirit inspired this writing and kept these writers from error. Also do not think the Holy Spirit replaced any historical knowledge that they already had. Matthew being an eyewitness. Matthew was promised the Holy Spirit was gonna teach him all things and bring back to memory the things that he had seen Jesus do when he was in that upper room with Jesus. If Matthew, the Matthew, the Levi is the same one who wrote that gospel. Luke tells us he has read a whole lot of things about Jesus. He's researched these things. I think the Holy Spirit keeps them from making error here and giving this and gives an accurate in the way that God wants it explained. And also the gold of the author and the mentality and what the author is trying to prove is also an element to inspiration. And that's my view of inspiration. I know that's not much shared by everyone. I don't believe in divine dictation. And so, and I could be wrong about that. Probably maybe I am, but I don't think the goal of the author and the previous knowledge of the author are removed from their writing. And this is written very theologically. - Yeah. - But I don't know, we feel like we gotta prove everything and have the exact date that the world was created or nobody's gonna believe in the Bible. And that simply was an evangelistic goal of anybody in the Bible. - Yeah. And when it comes to the timeline here, I believe I'm in agreement with you that I see a lot, if I understand what you believe here, but that time or the space between verses 39 and 40 of Luke, that's kind of where I would place a lot of things in Matthew about the magic coming, the flight of Egypt coming, you know, like, just what it makes sense for like a travel time and all, you know, like, I think Luke is saying, hey, these things occurred. Jesus grew up in Nazareth there. And then we see him coming to the temple later, which isn't mentioned in Matthew there. So that seems to be in my mind if I had to play something there, that's kind of where it is. But I also just think it's interesting that most of the time when we think about the birth, or at least me, I try just to lump all these two things together as in, oh, this is the birth of Jesus, when we have two accounts of it and they're very different. And I think it's worth us reading through and asking the question, what is Matthew trying to highlight about Jesus? And what is Luke trying to highlight about Jesus in their choice of picking which events from his birth in this time frame to communicate who he was? - You know what would be interesting? And, you know, there's chronological study bubbles out there. It would be really, that really kind of intermeshed a lot of the narrative that we have in the New Testament gospels and the book of Acts, obviously after those things. It would be interesting to see how a chronological Bible, how the editors have chosen to insert the flight to Egypt and the massacre, the innocence, all that, and integrate that with that. That's all the answer. The answer's there. We haven't even thought about that just now. - Well, if they all agree. - If they all agree, then they might all agree. - They would all agree, so. - All right, Tim, before we wrap this up, you want to add anything else in here? - No, I think I've probably espoused enough nonsense for today and enough speculation for the day. I just hope that we understand and we don't, we fail to forget, I understand why restorations don't celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. I understand that, but we don't need to forget and neglect the fact that this is an awesome event. And without this event, without God's Holy Spirit giving this child Jesus to this woman and us knowing that and how important it was as part of Matthew's proof text for Jesus being the Messiah and Luke's message of the office so that he would have a firm grasp of the things he's believed in. The birth of Jesus Christ is an extremely important part of the New Testament and shouldn't mean neglected. Maybe we just don't need to forget that. And there's no sin in talking about it any time of the year. It is the Word of God and it should be preached at any time. And so wherever we do this, but a neglect of this is to neglect the Word of God. - Yeah, I think it's so empowering to think about God with us. Like it's one of the unique things about the Christian faith is that God was born into flesh. You know, it came and lived with us. And when you think about different things, even like the Hebrew writer of, hey, we get to pray through a Savior who understands what it is to be human. It's such a empowering, humbling, moving part of my faith. - And humbling beginnings. - Yes, Jesus was not born in the royal bloodline of Herod. It's made absolutely clear by Matthew and Luke. Born in a, we can still say he's born in a barn. I mean, if we want to say that, but very humble beginnings. Not born like Solomon was born, for example. - Yeah. So who am I to be prideful and think something's going on? - That's right. That's right. - Hey, thank you for joining us. If you got any questions or suggestions for future topics, let us know by emailing us at podcastammountjulia.org. To our fellow students of scripture, thank you for joining us for tech support. We hope you will join us next week. - This is a podcast of the Mount Julia Church of Christ. You can find more personal growth resources like this one at mountjulia.org/resources. Mount Julia Church of Christ exists to glorify God and make disciples by helping people grow in Christ, love one another, and serve others. (gentle music) (gentle music) [MUSIC PLAYING] [BLANK_AUDIO]