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suno & udio are getting sued?? • a:a music news • episode 30
Generative AI music companies are getting sued by the big 3 major labels? Popcorn please! Let's dig in.
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- Broadcast on:
- 07 Oct 2024
- Audio Format:
- other
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the All Ambient Podcast, where we dig into the creative process, hear untold stories, and explore the brilliant minds behind some of the finest ambient music out there. I'm your host, Mike Graf. I'm excited to be in this together with you. Let's get going. Glad to have you with us. On this week's Music News edition of the All Ambient Podcast, we went over an interesting lawsuit in the music industry that is playing out right now over the big three major labels that are suing a couple generative AI platforms. This is a situation that's going to set the precedent, and it's going to have ramifications for years and years and years. It's kind of a big moment. It's pretty complex, but it really was interesting to dig through this. You're not going to want to miss it. Here we go. Let's dig right into this week's Music News. [MUSIC PLAYING] Folks, welcome to another Music News edition of the All Ambient Podcast, hanging today with Ben, Kirk, and Marshall. Of course, good to see you guys. It might be great to be here. How is life? I know we've got stuff to talk about, but what's life like? Summer time, right? It's full on summer. It's full on summer, which to me feels a little bit like purgatorious, sweet guitar. Yes, yes, explore that a little bit, but yes, totally. It's this whole other realm of, like, you're not sure if you're supposed to be vacationing, or catching up, or resting, or you're out working. And then it almost feels weird when you have like a normal work day, but then everyone else is off doing very summer like activities. And for me, I'm like, man, am I cheating? Am I not? Should I be out and about? Yeah. They're cheating. You're a good one. Aww, thanks for the information. Aww. Oh, no, no. No, I know the feeling. That's Kirk and I were talking just about that before you came in as, yeah, it feels like it's just harder. It's a bit harder to-- feels like, for me, at least, keep focused on at least getting some music done, maybe with the same output as you would, like during the school year. Just with the, you know, it's the family you're doing. It's the groove. And everything going on. Yeah, yeah. How long is the vacation time for you guys now? Good question. So typically, it's like late May, early June, depending on the school district. But it goes through, you know, it's usually about three months, about 12 weeks, three months, right in there. Three months. So those who end late May usually start a little bit before we have Labor Day in the US. And for up in Minnesota, we typically end early June. But then we don't start until after Labor Day. So Labor Day is usually the first Monday in September. And then the next day is school, school, school. That's long. That's a long summer. It is. Yeah. Three months. Yeah. Yup. It is nice. It's also Hong Kong. Like, yeah. Eight days, nine years. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's it. That's it. That's it. In kindergarten, tomorrow, this is four. He's in kindergarten. He gets two months. So he finishes today. This is last day. Yeah. And then he's going back us about the same time as you guys just early September. I know you guys were-- because you're heading out to Thailand pretty soon, right? Yeah. In a few weeks time. Yeah. Amazing. Oh, sweet. So fun. Indeed. Love that. All right. Summer mode, summer mode, summer mode. Vacation mode, all the things. Well, man, it is summer time. And it's also-- I mean, we are at a time where I feel-- I love these music news episodes, or where we're starting to focus in on what's going on. And the more that we've begun to perhaps set these episodes aside, the more I've started-- it's funny. It's like when you're car shopping, and then all of a sudden, you start recognizing that car that you're shopping for. You see 400 of them out on the road, all of a sudden. Just all of a sudden, it's a stream of consciousness, and you see them everywhere. Now that we're doing and committing to these music news episodes, and I love them, they're great. But maybe my phone or my laptop, maybe they're all just listening to me, because my algorithms are starting to smoke with some music news stuff. It's not a bad thing. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of movement right now. And today, I wanted to talk about-- Ben, you actually sent over the tweet, and I can't even call it tweet anymore, because it's not Twitter, it's X. So what is a post on X even called? Is it an X-it, a Y, X-Y-Z, I think? It's a X-Y-Z. Yep, there you go. It's OK, so if somebody said something on X, we'll just go with that. But let me read it. And Ben, do you want to give any context? I will read it. We will kind of talk through it. But is it Rob Abelo? Is that how you pronounce his name? I mean, your guess is as good as mine. So Rob Abelo. What's the context on Rob Abelo? Ben, do you follow his-- I follow his stuff. I get his news letter. It's definitely worth checking out. Yeah. But anyone who's not following him, it's a good resource on music industry news, but also kind of web3 music, and kind of where things are going, and just some of his insights and thoughts. So I like it. It's definitely worth having as part of a wider arsenal of music news that one is following. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the moment that you said that his newsletter was worth following when you were messaging us, and then I read that thing he posted on X immediately, I was like, oh, man, I am probably missing the boat a lot on whatever he's sending out in that newsletter, because if it's anything like his thoughts on this thing and just staying abreast to what's going on, yeah, I'm sure he's got a lot of good stuff to say, and a lot of good stuff for us to talk about, a lot of good stuff for a lot of artists to talk about. But let me read this, and I would love for us to just kind of chew through the concept of what is happening. So right now, breaking news, all three major labels that is Sony, Warner, and UMG, all three major labels are suing AI music generators, Suno and Yudio. So the RIAA is coordinating the lawsuits on behalf of the Big Three, Rob, his hammer dropped, which is true, this is no small thing. So here are the details. Today, two federal copyright infringement lawsuits were filed against Suno in the District of Massachusetts and against UDO in the Southern District of New York. Well, it's been clear to anyone with ears that Suno and Yudio have both been trained on copyrighted material for their AI models with zero transparency. Planning to, it was zero transparency, no plans to compensate the original sources or to seek any licensing. So the RIAA calls this is a really good quote. Mass infringement of copyrighted sound recordings copied and exploited without permission by two multi-million dollar music generation services. AI companies, like all other enterprises, must abide by the laws that protect human creativity and ingenuity. There is nothing that exempts AI companies from playing by the rules. And there are ways to do this and to play by the rules. They could one, train only on catalogs that they've licensed. Two, compensate artists and songwriters. And three, just be transparent, just fully transparent. It will take longer and will require like actually caring about creatives, but that's what Rob suggests is how we could play by the rules. And yeah, that makes sense to me. So then just last week, Jen AI dropped their fully licensed and transparent AI model, which is crazy. Voice cloning companies like voice swap and sound labs are actually doing the same. So these companies are dropping. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Music, Rob continues. Music isn't anti-AI, it's anti-theft. As the RIAA states, the music community has embraced AI and we are already partnering and collaborating with responsible developers to build sustainable AI tools centered on human creativity that put artists and songwriters in charge. So how does the RIAA know that Suno and Yudio have used copyright materials? They cite four examples. Suno's lead investor all but admitted it with this statement. If Suno had deals with labels when this company got started, I probably wouldn't have invested in it. I think they needed to make this product without the constraints, which is, I mean, yeah, that's pretty wild. Number two, Yudio execs said that their AI was trained on, quote, "a larger amount of publicly available and high-quality music," unquote. That was, quote, obtained from the internet. (laughing) This is so just-- Yeah, and-- - That seems like the best place to get it. - Well, I said, and then the final part of that quote was, "It's the best quality music that's out there." I mean, like, it's, yeah, it just feels, just say it. Instead of dancing, just say that you're doing the thing. So yeah, anyway. And then it looks like some of them even had left producer tags on the output, which is, you know, just like a mistake in the metadata, but it actually had some trails there that showed what was happening. And then, of course, you know, just the obvious sound of likes are out there being generated by users everywhere. So the end of his article, I know it was a little bit of a long read, but worth it. Who will win? It all comes down to fair use. Either way, we'll finally have an answer on the legality of generative AI music training in the US. I hope it's an answer that protects artists and songwriters. We can do this in a way where more than one or three AI tech companies win. So there's the thought, the nutshell on all that is that the AI companies are getting sued by the big three. And that is no small thing. There are mill, I mean, it is a multi-million, you know, billion dollar industry. I think it says a couple things. I'm gonna shut my mouth, but I know that it says that this is a serious enough problem where they're going to take it seriously. Like, it is enough of a threat to the dollars of, you know, it's certainly it's the major labels who are trying to protect themselves. But I think a lot of indie, wherever you find yourself on the scale of super indie to successful indie to, you know, being on a label deal to being one of the most successful artists in the world, this is an interesting conversation. I think another unique part of this conversation is that this lawsuit probably wouldn't be happening if the ability to copy those things, if it just stunk, right? If the quality was just awful, I don't think anyone would care. If it was just like bottom barrel, you weren't convinced at all with your ears that you were hearing, you know, AI, you're like, oh yeah, that's just trash. Like, that's not an actual copy. I mean, you can hear the fact that it's generated. But in reality, it's really deceptive. You can pull the wool over people's eyes really fast. And there are some really cool creative uses, of course, with a lot of these different AI tools, but just straight up plagiarism and stealing IP. And, you know, like the lawsuits are saying, like not protecting the creativity and ingenuity of people. That's obviously a massive line that's been crossed. So thoughts, well, I don't think we have anything in particular that we need to try to hash out on this. I'm just curious kind of where your guys' hearts sit on this 'cause it's no small thing. And yeah, it's affecting everybody. I'm glad that the big three are stepping in here. Because it kind of helps, you know, there's been a lot of chatter about, you know, smaller artists and labels trying to maybe do some kind of lawsuit or whatever. But to have, you know, the three biggest industry icons and companies say, hey, no, enough is enough. It's helpful for everyone in this context, I think. - Yeah. - And I imagine they have some type of evidence that they've been amassing and, you know, it's like they've been, I would imagine that they've been building a case before they would just jump in. So that'll be interesting to see how it plays out, you know? - Yeah, I think like there's been, I think like you just said Ben, like there's just been so much floating around. I think for me, like, I feel like I followed most of this conversation, but there's what feels like so many different talking points that it is just hard. It's just hard to follow so much of it, but it's like felt like it's been on the brink of like, okay, this is getting, this sounds like it's getting pretty intense with some of the directions that it's been going. So my first impression of reading this today was like, okay, it feels like it's a step in the right direction. It's something that I would hope would happen. That like as, you know, as these things are, the people are acknowledging like, yeah, we have to protect music and artists and I'm hopeful that it, you know, will continue to go that way as I'm sure the AI stuff will obviously continue to evolve and push back in its own way too. But yeah, I think it's an encouraging initial step, you know? - Yeah, maybe a raw way to put it. It feels as though, you see, if you were to even take the artistry out of it, if it was just a numbers equation, I really appreciate that the recording industry as Association of America, they are saying that it is worth us protecting this instead of it getting completely, if it was just a single pie and it was sort of a scarcity mentality thing, which I don't think it is. If there was only a certain amount of revenue that was able to be generated period in music and now AI is potentially siphoning off a bunch of that. But in the sense of people are using generative AI to create stuff that really like should at the very least be paying, you know, mechanical royalties or licensing royalties to the artists that were the originator of the generative idea that then turned into the AI. So the fact that the numbers show that this is a big enough deal for them to stand up on it, I think the severity level has increased to the point where the writing is on the wall a little bit. If something doesn't change, there could very well be a reckoning, like people could just absolutely hit the right AI prompts and you put in enough computing power and buy enough credits for whatever platform that you wanna do this on. And harness as many machines or as many, you know, perhaps as you can and just continue to generate stuff and stuff and stuff and stuff and stuff. You could decimate a bold load of people's catalogs really fast and maybe not even in a way that is trying to slander the original artists, like in a way where you're trying to like muck up their catalog or give the impression that you, you know, really that you're impersonating somebody with the AI model that's been trained on their material. But more so like able to create a level of quality of content that was trained off of better, trained off of Kirk or trained off, you know, like, you know, all the way up through all the majors. I think that there is something heartening a little bit that at least someone somewhere in some position of power acknowledges that the value of you, Marshall, sitting, doing what you're doing and creating is more valuable to this world than, hey, this guy does a thing, but we, why don't we just, you know, train like without any consequences whatsoever. Let's just train an AI model on his material and just yank it and just have it spit out as much, you know, as much new material, quote, as possible. And we don't have to label it as be still the earth, but it's gonna sound pretty, quote, be still the earthy. And off it goes. Like my heart sinks at that possibility, but I know that there is, this feels a little bit like the light at the end of the tunnel, because if it's big enough that it's going to court and that is going to court with the big three, yeah, maybe there is hope. 'Cause I've been feeling pretty not hopeful about AI stuff. Not that we're all just completely done for, that there is no chance for us to pivot or find other ways to continue to create in ways that will be great, but yeah, this is hopeful. It's a hopeful thing, I think, yeah. - I mean, that particular, like just what we just read, I mean, I think it's fair to also acknowledge the way he put like that, yeah, like this is a real thing that's happening, like we can't deny that there's AI and there's technology and that there are ways that this can be used, which, you know, is proper ways like licensing and things like this. There's just, there's clearly ways that it can't be used, which is what is happening here. So I can appreciate that and I know a lot of the libraries and some of the sync folks that we work with in our circle, like there's stuff going on in those worlds too, but it's like, and that's maybe a whole other conversation as well, but I think there's, you know, at least being maybe not necessarily transparent, but they're not just starting to, at least in my knowledge, rip off the artists and use their music without us knowing, you know, they're reaching out and speaking about those things. So it's like, yeah, let's acknowledge that this is happening, there's a way to do it, technology won't stop moving, we just have to kind of, yeah, let's think carefully and intentionally about what we're doing here. - Yeah. - Yeah, no? - Yeah, well, and like to that effect, I want to hear everything that Kirk and Ben have to say on this too, but it sets a little bit of a precedent, right? Where like, if this is being called out on the grandest scale there is, that gives even more wind to, if it happens on a smaller scale, if it's something that happens within a certain platform or a certain licensing platform and there is just behavior, fraudulent behavior that is training on any of us or any of whoever, it looks like there is now legal precedence to take action on this. And that's, yeah, that it's being taken, at least currently, I mean, you know, who knows what's gonna happen in court, but at least currently that this is being flexed on as a, this is gonna get sorted out. And hopefully the hammer comes down on it. And yeah, it'll just be really interesting to see how this plays out. I think the worst thing that could happen is if it was just kind of a little slap on the wrist and maybe just a little, you know, and just like a little fine or whatever, but still is just a giant, anyway, I digress. Go ahead, I'd love to hear Kirk, Ben, what are you able to say? - Yeah, I mean, to me, it feels a little bit like kind of when Napster arrived on the scene, what was that like 15, 20 years ago? When you're kind of in that state of flux and there's this new technology and the technology itself, there's something wrong with it. It's a good technology, but it's being used in a way that is not benefiting the artists and the creators. It's just being used because it's a cool new technology and the industry itself hasn't caught up to know how to use that. And it took a few years, but of course you get Apple iTunes, which was revolutionary at the time and then that translates over to Spotify and other things. So it kind of feels like we're in that moment and what the industry and artists and the AI company see to find is what the right use case is, like how are people going to legally use this in a way that is exciting and has a place within the industry, not just kind of, 'cause at the moment, people just randomly kind of creating fun stuff and then some of them are posting it to Spotify or whatever, but basically it's just used in that context and what is the genuine use case for this amazing technology and for sure, there will be some use cases for artists themselves within DAWs maybe and kind of idea creation and all that kind of stuff, but from a kind of end user perspective, from a listener perspective, where does this fit in and how does it benefit artists, right? - The use case, that will be an enlightening moment and I think that's gonna probably come from either one of these companies restructuring after having to fight to stay alive or it's gonna be some other company who's waiting in the wings to see how a couple things play out and then they go for it and so like the use case, I think is going to answer in that question, I think it's gonna help shape the least the beginning of whatever this other company is. That's exactly what I was thinking is like, okay, this is another Napster moment and there's gonna be something, but even iTunes, what they did was slightly illegal. You know, they just kind of did it and they're like, what are you gonna do? We're just, we're doing it and then by the way, there's money, yeah, here's a bunch of money and the labels are like, oh, okay, we'll let you keep doing it for taking 30% or whatever it is. So there might be something like that, but what they did was they created a structure that actually pays the owners, you know? And so if you do that, then they're gonna back off at least a little because they're getting something rather than nothing. And so I think whatever this company is or whatever the lawsuit brings in restructuring, it's kind of like, okay. So I think about like some of the music libraries or I think about some of the sample pack companies, like a splice or whatever, to where it's almost like, man, you wanna get on, like you wanna be a label on splice or you wanna be a producer that has a pack on splice because now it's like a place to go to that's good because now you get a little bit of royalties, a little bit of recognition, and on the libraries, it's like you have all these filters and the filters have all these words and the words are kind of vague, but they definitely point to a style, but those styles point back to artists and lots of artists who have contributed over decades, you know? And so I imagine that there will be a way for whether you have to start over from scratch or backlog or whatever. I'm sure it's kind of Wild West, how they put it together, but it's like, if you have the opportunity essentially to feed into this AI, then you get thrown into the pot, your band or your style, like let's say there's 100 bands that go into the funk, whatever, and they each have 20 songs from the catalog and each one of those is a percentage of whatever. And then all that stuff gets tagged in the filter and the filter gets tagged to the download and it all becomes, you know, this new creation now has 100% of something and it's all, you know, and then that goes out into the world and generates money or it's just a one-time transaction at the moment of download. They get their micro sync fee and then now it's a new creation out there in the world. So it's like, it could happen like that, but it could also happen to where there's still a stamp on that and there's a new ISRC code that then filters back to, you know, it's all gonna be micro, but because it's all digital, it's like, it's not outside the realm of impossibility 'cause you build it correctly on the front, on the back end. And so it's almost like, if someone does it right, it's like, if I was smart enough and actually want to do that, which I have no, like less than no desire, negative, lots of desire to do anything like that, but it's like, you could build something to where people are actually, are like, oh, this is like an opportunity to like actually be in this thing that's feeding this new thing that's eventually pay artists, you know, even if it's micro sense at a time, but you scale that over, you know, millions of users and it's like, oh, or someone could like generate their own custom, I imagine it's like, okay, it's Spotify even thinking about like, how do we create this thing? Like, maybe they are. And it's like, now they have a playlist that you can like filter out your five favorite bands, right? And you're like, I want a sad song that is by these five bands, I love all these vocalists and they're all built into the thing and all those people get paid and you get the song and you get to listen to it and it's made just, you know, out of your imagination, you're prompt. It's like, okay, I don't know is that, you know, if everybody's getting paid, then I guess it's all good, yeah. Well, then I think the interesting gray space in that equation is like how much one would hope that the lion's share of money that would be generated from that would go straight to the artists in which the content that was used to, you know, generate this, you know, this AI-cooked thing. But I could see, 'cause really, like when you think about it, I mean, if you're using existing content to train an AI model, at that point, all that you're doing is you're either thinking of a prompt or you're just googling what other prompts other people are using and just typing in and like boop. And so like by typing in and hitting the return key, am I now like the quote, creator of this? Right, the author of range or is the platform, you know, that I did, or the AI like, you know, it was done on open AI. So they're the ones who have, you know, like the lion's share, and is it just this little like piecemeal, you know, like 15 or 20% of what happens, you know, actually goes to the artists? And then that's, I think that equation's gonna be really interested because like the new stuff wouldn't exist at all had it not been for those artists. I get that there would probably be another artist who would just say, "Sure, hey, I'll throw my hat in the ring," because, you know, there will be. But yeah, gosh, it really, it has to be artist-centric at that point. Otherwise, yeah, I don't know, I think it could fall apart real fast, but that'll be a really, there's a lot of unanswered questions in the, yeah, how this gets divvied out in this and that, interesting. I have a silly question for you all. If you were approached by, on the other side of this, all the legality gets ironed out and you were, you were approached by someone that just said, "Hey, we will, we will pay you blah." Like, "Well, we'll give you a lump sum." If we are now allowed the opportunity to train, yeah, use your entire catalog to train our AI models and generate music that is very similar to yours. It won't go under the name. You know, "We Dream of Eden," "Be Still the Earth," and "Dr. Guayslands," "Dear Gravity," anybody, whoever, it won't go under that name, but it will bear a lot of the same characteristics of those because we trained on, you know, on your music. And maybe not even a kick on the back and maybe a small one, but like, what would, we don't have to name numbers, but like, is just the sheer concept of that, something that makes you guys want to throw up a little bit? Or is that just kind of the inevitable thing that's gonna happen someday, which at that point, then it almost becomes less about, gosh, and like, it could almost be a cool thing in the sense that like, I wanna create a sound that is signature to me, right? Instead of, you know, how it kind of lines up with other, maybe other artists in the space or this and that, like, I want it to feel like me, especially because if it's gonna, if somebody's gonna train on my entire catalog, like, what makes "Dear Gravity" different than picking other artists in our, you know, stable of friends or whatever? Yeah, that day might be coming. What does that look like to you guys? Does it sound awful? Does it sound awesome? What does it sound like? - No, it's not good. Like, for me, that is not a good situation. And I tell you why, I tell you why. I think there's two reasons. It's not- - Give me the money, girl. - It's not- - No, thank you. - I feel there's two issues with it. One is the kind of one-off payment. I think if it's a kind of ongoing royalty model, then that's one small step in the right direction. But the other thing is that where people can use that music. So I would be okay with that concept if it's like, hey, this is a licensing site and people can generate music for use in, say, YouTube videos or like, you know, non-commercial stuff, you know, wedding videos or whatever, those kind of things. That's fine as long as I'm getting some kind of kick at the back end when people generate using the AI model that has been trained on my music. But when it comes to releasing music to, say, Spotify, I personally would not want that because you want to protect what you have created and the sound that you've created. And I think too many things that sound too similar, just muddy's the water to the point that you just end up with this kind of muddy gray soup. - Yeah, homogenous. - No one likes that. - Muddy gray soup. - I think that's a great point. The whole idea of the use to where it's like the difference between licensing music and like doing that kind of thing and then re-uploading it to a distribution service. That's like a totally different model. Again, I think whenever I hear lump sum for music, that's always to me like a red flag. To me, it's like if you don't honor the relationship enough to like say, "Hey, I want to make money with this stuff." And I'd like you to succeed if this succeeds. That feels way more equitable than like, I want to buy it from you and then make money on it for the next 70 years or whatever. So yeah, the lump sum thing always, you know, whatever it is, it's usually a red flag. But yeah, it would be hard to say how you stop it. Like, how do you stop someone from generating it and then re-uploading it to Spotify, you know? Unless it was either an extra fee or a tag or it's like, but I don't want to be tagged on that. It's like, I don't want to be re-associated with a derivative, you know? - Well, hold on though, what if it was the lump sum but then you could use the service to create your own albums and then you could have your own massive output? - Yeah, just go on vacation. (laughing) And then you're paying yourself to, you're helping. - To do yourself. - Yeah, productivity level there. - There will definitely be artists who do that. It's like an open source AI kind of thing that you can just train on your own stuff that there's a ton of artists who are just like, "Yep, I'm off." - Come on. - It's my new album. - Yeah, it's good enough for-- - I've heard there's some licensing, right? - Major artists who are already doing that and we don't even know about it. - Ew. - It was a joke. - But it's probably true. It's probably true. - You just saw jokes here. - It's not going away. - No, it's gonna figure something out. - It kind of makes my stomach churn a little bit. Like, I'm fascinated by the tech but I'm also like my heart just gets wrenched for the potential bottoming out of the ingenuity and creativity of human beings, being able to keep bringing that into the world in a viable way, in a way that earns enough momentum for them to keep saying yes to it. 'Cause like, you know, those people won't disappear but if there's all of a sudden like zero revenue attached to it because you can just generate the heck out of anything, like there will be much, much fewer people who say yes to it. And yeah, not that it's about everything has to make money but it'll be really nice to feed my family, for sure. And to be able to do it in ways that are, you know, just the most creatively satisfying for me. And so yeah, I just, this is equal parts fascinating but also just a little dystopian and yeah. - Yeah, kind of switching gears a little bit but it's like the voiceover stuff that just dropped with a company that just launched AI voice and other companies, I'm sure that are doing it but it's like, okay, like that's thousands of people who've just lost jobs or at least lost those jobs and are gonna have to pivot to figure out other ways to do their thing. And that's real, that's real. And I think those kinds of things are gonna happen in all the spaces and so it's going to be paying attention enough to know how to build your business. Because on the flip side, there's guys who are doing stuff. I followed this one dude at Mark Sebelia, he's a guy in Nashville and he does covers and original music and all this kind of stuff. And he's just doing his thing and doing it in front of people and it's great and it's creative and it's authentic and people dig it and they're following him and he's building the business, you know, because of technologies, accessibility to do things. And so there's always, you know, I have to believe and I have to keep coming back to the idea that there's always gonna be people who want to be with people. There's people who want to connect with creative things that are made by people. There's some things that pay the bills and some of those are gonna change and some of them are just gonna straight up go away, you know. But I think we create because we love to do it and because we have to do it. And so that's not gonna change it. And then it's just gonna be paying attention enough to know like how do we connect with people in a way that's sustainable to keep doing the thing. And I think as artists, it also, it's a reminder and also almost an incentive to kind of make your music feel as real and as kind of human as possible. Especially with like instrumental music. Like how am I bringing in, kind of allowing for imperfection to appear in the music? How am I, you know, using real instruments as much as possible? How am I doing those kind of things? And I'm aware that, hey, I can still kind of replicate a lot of that stuff, but it's just that one step closer to being just real human music. And I do feel that there's gonna be a genuine desire from people for that. The more AI music just kind of gets into the market. - Yeah. I think the people that might perceive this as a threat a little bit more would be those who have a little bit less of a signature and are a little bit more middle ground. Oh, you know, in our genre or in any genre, you know, across the board, like if you're not putting your neck out there and kind of what you said, then we're like, like if this doesn't feel here, I mean, if this doesn't feel like a genuine expression of, you know, a creative human being, like a thought process, ingenuity, all that, then the less signature it feels, the easier it is to replicate, right? The more intricate it can be. And I'm not too intricate. Like, let's add more notes or, you know what? Like, you know what I'm saying? But the more intricate it is, the more signature it is, the more difficult it will be for that to be cloned in a way that is passable as, you know, the real thing. And I think that it'll be interesting to see how that plays into it all. And man, I might even, you know, an interesting part of all this. We might see more and more of the rise of watching people. And you know, I know that there's plenty of reels and videos and all that stuff all over social of musicians already doing this, but it might even pour more fuel on the fire of watching people create what they create. Like, actually, like, actually here, this sound is being birthed by me, playing this and twisting this and doing this as opposed to, you know, AI prompts doing the thing click. And the way it goes, to actually watch the process of art coming to life certainly makes it more, you know, I mean, it's not only alibi in a sense, we're like, hey, this was actually created by human hands. But it also lends itself to the beauty of creation in and of itself, the beauty of bringing something from nothing. And I know that, like, we as humans, that's something that fascinates us all in a lot of senses. So yeah, I think that there is silver lining in the sense that it will not decimate everybody and everything, but it certainly will have an impact. And we'll just have to see what that is. But thank you, big three, for putting some lawsuits in emotion that regardless of what the immediate monetary impact of those things is for those labels and how much of a lawsuit gets slammed on these AI models on UDO and on SUNO, that it will set a giant precedent for everything moving forward. And I am hoping very optimistically that it's gonna go really well. So we shall see. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, awesome. Yep, thanks for chewing through that with me, y'all. And thanks for just bringing your, yeah, just every perspective, every bit of wisdom, always helpful, love it, until the next bit of music news that happens to come our way, let's call it. Thank you for listening to the All Ambient Podcast. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can catch every conversation we have with all these incredible people who share the same passion. I'm looking forward to the next time, and I hope you are too. Can't wait to see you then. And until then, have an incredible day. Here is hoping this music and the heart behind it makes your day and life that much better. We'll see you next time. (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) [BLANK_AUDIO]