(upbeat music) You're listening to the FitMind FitBody podcast where we explore the connection between running and positive mental health. We do this by talking to runners from all walks of life who generously share their experiences with us. So you don't miss an episode, I've created an email list for you to join. Check the show notes for more details. Without further ado, I am your host Michelle Frost. Let's get moving. (upbeat music) Today on the podcast, we've got Jackson Milan, an entrepreneur who never thought of himself as a runner until he decided to take on one of the toughest trail races in Australia. Jackson shares how he went from avoiding running to tackling ultra endurance events, all while juggling a busy life in business and martial arts. And I should say, in a very short time. In this episode, Jackson talks about what running has taught him about mindset, pushing through discomfort and the power of setting big goals. His journey is full of valuable lessons and whether you're new to running or looking for some inspiration, you won't wanna miss this conversation. Let's dive into a chat with Jackson Milan. You're really gonna love this one. Today on FitMind FitBody, I am really excited to introduce you all to a gentleman that I've known for a little while been in completely other circles. So Jackson Milan, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, looking forward to having a chat. - This is really exciting. I was just explaining, I haven't done a podcast recording for a little while, so a little bit rusty. But you're one of those people who, I've known for a while, but I didn't know you as a runner. I knew you in other spheres. And suddenly you've sort of, it appears, suddenly that you have taken on this whole running world, which is what I obviously love, 'cause I've been addicted to it myself or pretty much most of my life. So it's really exciting when I have been watching your journey via Facebook. And hence I wanted to get you on to share that story, 'cause I think it will inspire others, whether they're runners currently and need a bit of motivation to keep going. Or maybe they're new to running and trying to work it out and whether it's for them. So thank you for agreeing to jump on. Really appreciate it. - My absolute pleasure. I actually never thought I'd be on a running podcast in a million years, so I'm very excited to have this chat. And hopefully we can share some wisdom of my journey along the way. - I love it. I'm a bit of a running Nazi. I don't really understand why everybody doesn't run because their bodies are made like that. So I become this kind of, yeah, we should all run. I don't understand it. It's like brushing your teeth. Or the things that we have to do, eat and breathe every day. I won't talk about that there. Let's move all the way back to where did Jackson grow up? Tell us a little bit about your childhood. - Yes, so childhood I grew up in Wollongong, so about an hour south of Sydney. And I was by no means an athlete or a talented fitness fanatic in Niwo shape or form. So just to sit the scene, I'm five, six and I weigh 55 kilos, strip and wet. So I'm only a little tacker. And I was just, it was never naturally gifted when it came to sports. And I always remember like I've got memories. There's a couple that jumped a bind. My dad was a fanatic soccer player in South American. He was from Chile and obviously South Americans, football was in their blood. And he tried his very best to kind of mentor me and coached me, but I was never a gifted soccer player either. I wasn't a good runner. And I was very anxious because of my lack of talent. And it wasn't until much later in my life that I realized that people aren't, the vast majority of people aren't born with their talents. They earned them over a very long amount of time. And as a naive kid, I just thought that you either had it or you didn't. And therefore I struggled a lot. In my entire soccer career of basically from being four years old all the way through to about 18, I scored one goal. And that one goal, Michelle, was there was a corner that was shot into the box. I went to go swing and kick it on the full, I missed. And I was so convincing that the keeper jumped for it. And then I got it on the second try. So that was just the epitome of my lack of skill that managed to get me one goal. And my second memory around fitness was the school athletics carnival. I wasn't a gifted runner at all. And I was at symptoms of being an asthmatic as a kid. And I just have this feeling that when I would run, I would get just super flaming and this horrible, chesty breath, this feeling and this heaviness afterwards that I'm just like, it's just another thing that I'm just not naturally gifted for. And I took it through my entire life that up until literally this year, I would say I'm not a runner. And it was just kind of part of my DNA. And that's where I started. - So let's go back to childhood to say a little bit more dear siblings. - I've got five seconds. - What? - Yeah. - Where are you in that fire? - I'm in the, I am the second youngest. - Wow. - Five sisters. - Mind you, I'm one of five and my brother is the only, like the only male in all of that. So he's almost up to you, but he's only got four sisters. That's amazing. - And they're all half sisters, mind you. So we've got a pretty brady bunch family. My dad always like to say that he'd love to wedding cake. So that was his excuse. And yeah, typical passionate South American man. So yeah, we've got a bit of a brady bunch family. - I love it. Well, yeah, I've got one, one of my sisters is a half sister, but the rest of us are not so much. But my dad's English, so maybe not as passionate. (laughs) I don't know if it's South American. Are your siblings with a sporty? I know you said your dad was a bit of a soccer dude? - My second oldest sister Rebecca was very sporty. And sport was part of her DNA growing up. It was very athletic, but the rest of my family are not athletic at all. - Not so much. - So it was, I never really had a lot of role models in that space. And it was really interesting that I saw, I went to school with a lot of really gifted athletes who were just the epitome of what they did. And it just seemed to come so naturally. And it was so interesting just to see that I'm just like, yeah, that's not for me. That's just not who I am. And I've just made that decision and I never thought about it again. And look, I think it was probably cemented throughout being a lifelong martial artist as well for the big part of the last decade. I've trained Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and all full contact martial arts are incredibly challenging because you can't fake it. It's just you have to earn the skills and that those skills are earned through a lot of perseverance. And just, yeah, the repetition of going through the reps and against an opponent who is going full force against you. You can't bluff your way through it. And I just, I had this entire time that, okay, you have to work hard for anything when it comes to anything to do with sport or athletics. And that was just my kind of, my mantra. Work harder than everyone else. - And you did. With the Jiu-Jitsu, how long ago was it that you started that? - I started Jiu-Jitsu, so it's been a decade now. So I'm 35 now. - Yeah, you're a baby. - So mid 20s. - So when you started that, what was the impetus? What made you think? I should, 'cause that is a sport. I mean, it's a sport of sorts. Like it's a physical activity. It's a movement thing that you're doing on a regular basis. What made you decide to take that on? - My dad made it very clear, 'cause he was a martial artist as well and he knew that I was gonna be small. And he said, you need to know how to handle yourself through a school, being able to kind of protect yourself with bullies. And he's like, most bullies, as soon as you put up resistance, they're gonna leave you alone. And he'll basically prepared me that you're gonna get flogged by bigger people. But the reality is that they would prefer to pick a weak opponent. So as long as you keep fighting back, even if you get flogged, they will leave you alone. And it worked. And I just kept with it my entire life. And it's interesting, I find, as a martial artist myself, and I know I can almost pick martial artists straight away, they hold themselves with a particular confidence. And it's interesting that when you are that talented, in terms of from a lethal perspective, you drop the ego. - Yeah. - And you just carry yourself with this very quiet confidence that oozes through everything that you do. And it's been very, very addictive. But it's interesting, I almost kind of compartmentalised martial arts and like athletics and sports as two fundamentally different things, because of those subconscious anchors that I had from a kid. - Funny what we drag with us from our childhood. - Certainly. - That's amazing. Okay, let's just go back a little bit. So as I said to you at the start, we try and we talk a little bit about your life outside of sport to a degree as well, because that's what other people will relate to. They'll be like, oh, you know, Jackson runs now, but he didn't always run. And he was, you know, did X in his 20s and Y in his 30s or whatever. So tell us a little bit about your 20s. What did you do in your left school? - So my entire adult life has basically been dedicated to entrepreneurship. And my parents were business owners. That was a tradie. Mum was a hairdresser. They were both incredibly hard workers. And they always said to me, Jackson, if you want to be successful in this world, you've got to work hard for it. And I always was very suspicious of that because I saw them working incredibly hard, but I never saw any of the spoils of that hard work. We always had roof over ahead and we always had food on the table where there's never any excess. So I basically had this epiphany that I wanted to break this generational cycle of financial hardship. And I started training to become a financial advisor. And I wanted to help people like my parents. And I became very disheartened in the first business that I was with. I worked for a big fall bank and I very quickly saw that they didn't care about people like my parents. I only cared about people who were incredibly wealthy and they wanted to make them wealthier. And they wanted to sell commission-based products to people like my parents who quite frankly didn't need them and certainly wasn't going to help them create financial freedom. So from that point, I basically committed my entire life to entrepreneurship. And since then I've built an eight-figure business and I've helped my clients build over $3 billion and combined wealth. I'm a five-time international best-selling author. I've got a team of 35. I've spoken to tens of thousands of the world around. So I definitely categorised myself as a high performer and a high achiever in the world of business and entrepreneurship and thought leadership. And that's basically been what I've measured my life by since I was 18 years old. - So the people that you help, are they still, you know, you would think of them as people like your parents as you were growing up? - Yeah, so they're all business owners. They're multi-six figure and seven figure business owners. So that kind of our positioning is that most of our clients come to us because they know how to make money, but they don't know how to keep it and make it work for them. And we helped them crack that part because we're not taught, right? And we're not taught that at school. If we're lucky, we might have parents who have some level of experience, but it's usually very subjective. And we basically put people through financial school in business and personal so they can take control of their financial future and create financial freedom faster. - Oh, I love that. Now, one of the things that I remember that you did in the last, I don't know, a couple, three or four years, you went on a little traveling thing. Tell us a little bit about that because you jumped outside of the traditional lane. When you're being an entrepreneur, that's harder. But anyway, but you didn't stay living in a house. You went traveling. - No, I certainly didn't. - Yeah, so I've always done things in a very unconventional way and I follow my heart and I do the things that are different. And I'm definitely not afraid of going to the path less traveled. And one of the goals that I had is we see so many business owners create a prison for themselves in their business, right? And most people get into business because they want freedom and flexibility, but then they end up working double the amount of time for half the money. - Yeah. - And lots of bosses instead of just one. - Exactly. And when we speak to our clients, I've got to always have the same conversation that it's somewhere in their goals. They would say, I want to spend a year traveling in Australia or I want to spend three months in Europe with my family. And I want to be able to enjoy this amazing experience. So then when I'd ask them when, they'd be like, oh, yeah, five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And I'm like, well, why not sooner? And then I'd be met with just this laundry list of reasons why. I'm my business isn't ready and I need to do this, this, and this first. And I got stuff that. I'm going to show you guys how this is done. So I'm going to work on getting my business to a point where I can actually spend a year traveling around Australia in a four-wheel drive, going to the remote as parts of the world, go with my partner and our two dogs at the time which turned into three dogs, but that's a story for another time. And show you how not only I can do this in my thirties, but also grow and scale my business simultaneously. And I spent a year preparing the business. So I could do that. We spent also a year fitting out a Toyota trip carrier that could take us to the remote as parts of Australia. And then basically documenting the entire journey which I turned into my second book, Secrets to Scaling a Seven-Figger Lifestyle Business. And we did that. We packed everything up into the Troopy. And we spent a year traveling around Australia looking for our dream home. And it was really interesting. It did coincide with COVID. So we basically left after the first lockdown. And the fascinating thing about it is that so many people basically lived the carrier just leave through us. And I've had countless people reach out to us saying, like, Jackson, it was your trip around Australia that actually gave us hope that we'd make it through this lockdown and gave us something to look forward to. And the amount of people subsequent to that who've gone and done something similar or the same thing with their families, it feeds my soul. - It does not. - So yeah, it was amazing. It was scary, but so fulfilling. - Did you have internet? Like, I was just thinking, 'cause I've just done this trip on the yacht and we had Starlink. Was Starlink available then? I can't remember. - It wasn't, no. So we did Telstra. And we basically got this cell phone booster. So basically, as long as I could get one bar of reception, it would actually boost it up to full bars. And we had an app on my phone that would tell me where the Telstra towers were. So then if I had a webinar or something or had an important meeting, in some cases, we would park the troupey under the cell phone tower. And I'd run a webinar from the back of the troupey and that the troupey inside looked like the inside of a tank. And everyone's like, are you in a battle tank or something? That I don't know, I'm telling you the story. But it was fantastic. It was so much fun. - Oh, I love that. Oh, well, something you don't know about me is 10 years ago, I took my three younger children and I went up, we drove in a terrago up the west coast of Australia from Tasmania, which is where I'm from. And then eventually we stayed in a tent. I did webinars in a tent in Broome. That was kind of funny. And then, 'cause that was back in my day, we didn't have Starlink then either. All of this other thing. And we sold the van and all of our gear in Darwin and then we traveled all through Asia and Europe for the next year after that. So we're away from home for 18 months. So we did a similar kind of thing and had a blog called Upsticks and Go. So just way back when it feels like a lifetime ago, but I can concur the what an amazing experience it is to jump out of the train track that everyone else is on, even if you're an entrepreneur, you still can find yourself on that. As you said, all of your customers, or clients had all the excuses about why they couldn't. And we were a little the same until we decided that we don't have to be the same. We can just make another choice and then work towards it and make it happen, which we did. - It's really interesting, right? As Confucius famously said, he who said he can and he who said he can't are both right. - Correct. - And funnily enough, that read it's ugly head with me and running, which we'll get to. - Yeah. - But I just, I documented all of the self-limiting beliefs that I had around doing that trip. And then I just worked through them, right? And if something is important enough to you, you will find a solution. And I'm also a big believer that the worst addiction in this world is the addiction to comfort. - Yeah. - That we all get so comfortable. And the thought of looking back on my life and regretting all of the risks that I chose not to take because of what could have been, I never wanna be in that position. So as soon as I desire something and I go through a process of getting clear on what my motivators are, and if I really want something, there is nothing in this world that was coming. - It's actually, a lot of what I'm trying to do is teach people mindfulness in movement. And a lot of that is acceptance that things are gonna be uncomfortable. So it's not even that you run towards the discomfort but that you accept that it's going to be there, especially if you want the other things that are on the other side. And most people do. They realize that it takes a struggle and discomfort and even pain sometimes to get where you want to go. So accepting that's gonna happen and just allowing rather than that, you know, always the forcing trying to get away from it or trying to always just be comfortable. As you said, we talk a lot of the podcast about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable and how important that is. I don't think it's not just about running. It's about life and everything in between. I like that you bring that up. - One of my good friends said to me the other day, he said, don't wish for an easy life, wish for the skills to handle a hard one. And I'm very fortunate that I've been able to remove a lot of the stresses and things that many people have to endure. But I don't take that opportunity for granted. I manufacture my own hardships, which comes through running and through martial arts and other things that I do because that's what keeps us sharp and keeps us growing. And I think it's so important. Don't focus so much on getting out of these hardships to then get caught up in this comfortable, cushy life because that's not what happiness is for. - Well, discomfort will come for you anyway. Like, you know, even if it's only up here, a lot of, you know, if you just sit around and don't keep yourself occupied and don't keep yourself getting a bit uncomfortable, you will very quickly start to, you know, find discomfort, it finds you, you know, the thoughts that are going on in our heads and stuff, even when we are comfortable. They can quickly, things that you wouldn't even worry about suddenly become bigger than Ben Hur because you're not, you know, otherwise occupied and things that are helping you grow and evolve, so I'd love that. You alluded to in your trip, traveling around until you found a place? - Yes. - Did you find a place? Tell me about your trip. - We did, we found a place. So the story goes, we went up and did the cape, we went right to the tip, and we found a dog, a stray dog. There's lots of community dogs out there in this dog who we then called Yorkie, who's still with us. She was very, very sick. And we found out that she was diagnosed with this, this tick-borne illness called eliciosis, which basically is almost a certain death. There's no vets up there. So we put her in the truck and drove her back six to 10 hours to cans and got her emergency treatment, blood transfusions, she actually went blind in both eyes and then subsequently got all of her sight back. It was miraculous, she had less than a 1% chance of survival. And then we had to go through a very strong cause of antibiotics and everything off the back of it. But essentially after that situation, we then got stuck with a border closing into the Northern Territory. So we couldn't actually continue our full lap. - Oh no. - And then we got, oh crap, well there goes our trip. So we were kind of stuck in cans. I'd never been to cans before. It was my first time that we'd been in funnel. Queensland, the thought of being in cans had never even crossed my mind. And being bored, and we'd been looking at properties all up the East Coast, and we didn't find what we wanted. And every year I write what's called by annual love letter, and in there I document all of my goals, dreams and aspirations. And my partner, Anna and I had done with that property. So we had very explicit requirements. And none of the properties that we looked at ticked the boxes. And I was bored one day, looking just on real estate to come to that AU. And the first property I looked at just fed myself. I had this attraction to him. So I said to my partner, and now let's go and have a look at it. We went and looked at it on a rainy day, and we had the list, and it ticked every single box on the list. And we go, "This is our." And so we decided to make an offer, and we exchanged contracts on that property. And we settled on it, and it's now been three years. So our home is called Aureus Acres after our business. We've created an animal sanctuary. So we've got 70 acres, and we're surrounded by about 5,000 acres of World Heritage Rainforest. - Oh, beautiful. - We've got Cass. Cassowaries here every day, wallabies here every day. And we've rescued over 100 animals and given them their forever home. So we've ticked off a number of our bucket list items, which is amazing. - I feel like it would be hard for you to go and complete your lap now, because you've got this thing that's going on at home. - Exactly. Look, I feel that everything works out for a reason. And it just worked out the way that it did. And we're so happy where we are. It's so magical. And we're so grateful that we have this amazing place to call home that we can enjoy every single day. So yeah, the lap is on pause. I'm sure we'll get back to it one day. - Yeah. - But whenever that happens. - Well, part of our time away, especially once we got to Europe, was house sitting. So we house sat for like six months. So you could just, like, we were the kind of, 'cause we had kids, we were the kind of house sitters that would go to a place like yours. You know, like a place with lots of animals and out the country and stuff. So yeah, that's what you'll need. You want to get to find some house sitters and come and look after your place, your forever home. That's amazing. Now, tell me, 'cause that was all bits just me being indulgent. I wanted to find out more information about that myself. Now, let's get to the running bit. Jackson, why are you now running? What happened? - So as the story goes, up here in Far North Queensland, there is this mountain. It is very hot. Like, the thought of running never crossed my mind ever. Since that experience of a child, I've always said, I can't run. And he has said he can, and he has said he can't, but both right. And there's this mountain up in Far North Queensland in a place called Gordon Vale that's called the Pyramid. Okay, and this is about a kilometer high elevation. And there's actually a race that happens every single year. And it's happened for over 50 years. Very, very famous race up here. Arguably one of the hardest trail races of its kind. And we were waiting for our property to settle. We were staying in a camping ground that's actually across the road from the pyramid. And we were fortunate enough one year to see the race on. And I would just remember hearing the stories of people saying like, this is a really dangerous race. Like you have to prepare for it. People have died on the mountain in the race. And it's about a 13 kilometer race. You have three kilometers to the base, about three kilometers to the peak, and then back again. And swelter in heat, usually 30 degrees, right? 100% humidity, pretty serious stuff. And I had this fleeting thought. And I'm like, I'd love to do that one day. 'Cause I've lived my entire life doing hard things and ticking things off the bucket list. And I kind of subconsciously put it on the bucket list, but it was way down and on a pedestal. Because my initial thought was, you're gonna have to prepare for years for this. Like you need to become a proper athlete to do this. Current Jackson is nowhere near close enough to doing this. And that's the kind of pedestal that it stayed on. And I don't know what the catalyst was, but one day I just decided, I'm gonna go buy some new running shoes and I'm gonna do the pyramid race this year. And basically that was about April this year. So the pyramid race was in August. So like, okay, I've got like six months to prepare and I'm just gonna start running. And that kind of my process for goal-setting is to avoid procrastination, I declare things publicly. Because my process has always been, as soon as I declare things publicly, I never want people to think that I'm a liar, that I'm a big noter, that I am all talk and no action. So if I'm serious about something, I declare it publicly and that's my skin in the game. The decision is made, must be done. - And you do it on a video, do you always do it? - Sorry, do you always do a video? - It could be a video or it could be written one or the other. I do think this is a written post. And I did the post and I said, well, this is gonna be my biggest challenge. I've said that I'm not a runner. I'm gonna prepare for this. I'm gonna do this race. And my goal is just to finish. And a friend of mine, Glade Dobson, who's also known as fossil, he's an Ironman, he's done like a lot. He's done Ironman 40 or 50 of them. He's done a lot of endurance running. He's run the Sahara, he's done so many different things. And he basically just volunteered himself as my mentor. - Wow. - And essentially just gave me a plan and I just remember the text that I got in April 'cause he's like, how much are you running? I'm like, oh, I did 10K this week. And he goes, that was a rookie number. He's like, let's sort this out. And he basically taught me everything. He's like, okay, this is how you ramp up your numbers. This is how you've got a shortened stride. Here's how you've put your strike. I want you to send me your step count. I want you to run zone two or you to do this, and he basically laid out a plan. And anything that Glenn said, I did. And essentially, since starting running in April through till September last month, I've gone from zero to 200 kilometers a month average in training hours. - Wow. - I did the pyramid in, I didn't just finish it. I did it in two hours and six minutes. And I then went on to do a 60 kilometer ultra marathon two weeks after the pyramid because the pyramid wasn't a challenge anymore. So I would-- - Oh my God. - You're right, it's full stick pretty quick. - So, did your friend say anything about that (laughs) going from from zero to an ultra so quickly? - It was interesting. And look, he was fascinated by my work ethic is that you've got the mind for this, right? The thing that you just, you don't have is the physical endurance and the miles yet. You just, you've got to ramp it up. So he basically just pushed me. He said, look, the first three weeks is your test. I'm gonna give you this plan. And if you follow it, I will then give you the next three weeks. And I just followed it to a T. And he's like, okay, we've built the base. Okay, now we've got to then prepare. So he had me running up the pyramid twice in a day and using weight vests and doing tire pulls and doing hill repeats and all of these things. Anything he said, I did. And we just kept pushing it. And then basically I got kind of a couple of weeks away from the pyramid race. And I saw this ultra-comer 'cause I was kind of looking for the next challenge. And I had this kind of thing that I'd done the pyramid so many times in training. The race itself wasn't even a challenge anymore and my mind was done. So I just went on to the race calendar and I was looking for another race and I saw it and I get sent into text. I said, "When there's a 60 kilometer ultra "car rounded a port Douglas, "it's two weeks after. "What are your thoughts?" And his response was, "You've already asked me the question "so your decision is already made, right?" And he's like, "You just look up a validation." And I go, "That's exactly what I'm looking for." And he's like, "You gotta be fine." So this is what you've got to do. We're gonna use the pyramid as the-- The training race. And this is what you've got to do to prepare for that. And my goal was to get the ultra done in eight hours. And I think I've got it done in eight hours in two minutes. That's awesome. What does it taught you? What does this whole running thing taught you? The reason why I do it is it's the game of mindset, right? The thing that I like about running and the reason why I wish I discovered is this lesson sooner is that there is no cheating when it comes to running. It's much like martial arts. Instead, it's even a simpler form compared to martial arts because in Jiu Jitsu, you still need a resisting opponent. And the resistance you get is dependent on how that person turned up and what their day was like and their training, whereas running, it is just you. - In the environment. - And it's in the environment, right? And we're not in very forgiving environments up here, right? - No. - And the game, it's a game of mindset first. The decision must be made in the mind if it's going to be made in the body. And the thing that I really enjoy is the mind games that I must play with myself to get out and run. The thought of, ah, that feel good today, legs are sore or ah, it's okay. Let's just go for five kilometers instead of 10. Or who's going to know? And no one's going to be in the know, it's fine. It's not a big deal. Do it tomorrow. And having to work through those mind games and have the follow through and the perseverance to be in control and to allow that heart of my conscious or subconscious to be in the driver's seat is the thing that I enjoy the most. And I think it teaches me how to ensure that that permeates through every other aspect of my life. Because if that's happening in running, and I'm sure all everyone listening to this or watching this has felt this, right? God, do I want to go for a run today? Nah, it's cold. I'm going to stay in bed. I'm going to hit the snooze button. I'll go tomorrow. Whatever that kind of procrastination may be. If that's rearing its ugly head there, where else is that appearing in your life? Where else are you not playing for that? Where else are you allowing yourself to cop out from doing the hard work? Where else are you not reaching your fullest potential? And that's the thing that I enjoy the most. - So as a new and quite addicted runner, which is what tends to happen in the beginning, and then it tends to stick with this as well, 'cause that's how it works. Where are you seeing it? Where do you think it's going to take you? And I'm pretty sure I've already seen your next thoughts. - Yeah, I'm a little bit disappointed because I did have a next goal. My next goal was, at the end of November, was to do the cosy 100. And I procrastinated on it, and I didn't get my ticket and it sold out. So I'm on the waiting list, and I'm still preparing as if I am running the race. And I'm also going to try and use my negotiation skills to call race directors and organizers to see if I can swindle myself a ticket. But look, it was interesting, right? In life, not everything could be an armchair ride, right? I'm very fortunate, look, I've made a decision to start running. I ramp myself up very quickly, and I've achieved my goals in a very short time period, far faster than whatever thought I could. And I imagine a world where I would continue to remain on that trajectory, when everything come easy, right? And I get out there, I ramp up the miles, injury free, I mean, good spirits, I continue to chip away at it. Where is the joy in that experience? There is that, there must be ups and downs. And I look forward to the downs as much as I look forward to the ups. So I reflect on my experience, yes, I should have booked my ticket, should have got it done sooner. And I think there was definitely a, of not having complete conviction to the decision. And therefore, I pushed it back a little bit, and it's come back to buy me. So I'll deal with those consequences, and I'll build that into my system, that if I commit to doing a race, I'm going to book it straight away. So I let myself down a little bit there, but I think there's a lesson to be learned in that experience as well. - There's a lot of other 100k races around as well. - Exactly. - I did one this year called Gone Nuts in Tasmania, which is a 101, actually 103 kilometers, but they advertise it as 101, goes along the coastline of the Northern Tasmania, and it's very challenging. So if you want one that's really challenging, that'll prove you, I think it's marked or something. Anyway. - Amazing, I'll check it out. - There's eight out there, and Gone Nuts has tied up right up your alley. (laughs) It summarizes me pretty well. - People are pretty nuts who do that. Now, when you were saying that, you were talking about challenges and things like that, and how it's all come quite easy, but I'm sure it hasn't. If you reflect, I might feel like it now because you've come out this other side and you've managed to tickle these boxes. But just even, as you said, the motivation to get yourself out the door, when you're actually in events, every moment in that event isn't sunshine and roses, every, there are moments where you think, why am I here, why did I just, I'm doing this voluntarily, what's wrong with me? You know, there's, you know, my body's screaming at me. Surely you had those moments as well, Tex, and they weren't, it's not just me, it's the place. - I certainly did. That is not hard for me. - Yeah. - The reason for it is because I think the way that I've crafted my mindset is that, once the decision is made, and once I'm fully committed to something, or once I'm going through the motions, I don't agree. And like my commitment to the 60K Ultra was, you just need to finish. Like if you've got a crawl, you've got a crawl. And it's gonna get done. And the moment to moment, pains and aches and things like that, are inconsequential, because like my mind is structured in such a way that I know all of those things are just temporary. And even the games of the procrastination and overcoming that little voice in my head, I know they're fleeting. Like I've measured it. For the vast majority of people, that fleeting thought is anywhere between three and 10 seconds. If I can just bullshit myself back to overcome that three to 10 seconds of resistance, I'm through the other side and then it's easier again. And even if that means you've got to do that in like 30 to 60 second increments of like, okay, cool, I'm just gonna run to that tree or I'm just gonna run to that sign. Or I'm just gonna do this. I just developed this, this rhythm of going from the one thing to the next. So I've got enough muscle memory. And I guess I call it mental muscle memory of gaming myself through that process. So I don't find that difficult at all. I think the thing that has definitely been the most difficult is managing the eager and learning to follow the system and not run from that position of eager. - Yeah. - 'Cause it's interesting. But it's funny how this patterns. Much like when I did the trip around Australia and how so many people reached out to me since starting my running journey, I've had the same thing of people reaching out to me saying, because if you have started running and I'm doing this race and I'm doing that, I'm like, awesome. So all of that wisdom that Glenn gave me, I've found myself passing on. And the interesting thing is that I see so many of these people running with ego of like, I've just got to go and sprint as fast as I can for 10 kilometers and then not die at the end. And that's the same force that I'm battling against as well. So try to keep that in check is probably the hardest part for me. - We talk a lot on the podcast about one of the only things we can be guaranteed is change. Is it things are gonna change? And just going back to what you were talking about before, where it's really hurts right now in this given moment, but then you know, then in the next few moments, it may well change and it probably will. Like, that's one thing that's guaranteed. It may get worse or it may get better, but it's gonna change and the seasons as well that we have as runners where sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. At the moment, you haven't got to the point where you've had any real injuries as of yet, I assure you. - So I had a couple. So after the ultra, one of the big things with the ultra that I was really focused on was my nutrition and my hydration. - Yeah. - And the main reason for that is it's interesting. I'm big on TikTok. I love TikTok, it's a phenomenal platform. And the algorithm is so scary because as soon as it knows you like something, it just serves you in these videos, right? It was actually how I got my original ADHD diagnosis. And then once I started running, I started getting served all of these long distance running videos and one of them was this particular medical condition associated with marathon long distance runners who don't hydrate and take care of their nutrition where basically their body breaks down their muscles and it creates this vicious cycle. The main escapes me. But I was very, very focused on making sure that I didn't cause any injuries or potentially life altering consequences. So everything was fine, nutrition was great, everything was really good. And I run my ultra and a week later, I come to Sydney 'cause I had a speaking engagement. And I was tapering my running back on, so I hadn't run a lot. And I just finished about a five count of treadmill in staying in a hotel and didn't feel great. I went back to my hotel room and started pain blood. - Oh, no. - Yeah, so that was scary. Went to hospital and they diagnosed it as an acute kidney injury. - Yes. - And luckily no permanent thing, they kept me out of observation, lots of hydration and kidney function all went back to normal. But they basically said, look, because of the short amount of time that you've been running and the sheer volume that you've just run, potentially just the shock of your kidneys and not being used to that amount of distance and that amount of shock is what caused it. So, yeah, that was interesting, a little bit scary, particularly because I thought I'd taken all of the preventative measures and I didn't have any, yeah, I didn't have any of the symptoms, skin elasticity was fine, tongue was colored, pee was normal color, there was no real signs, just all of a sudden just happened. So, yeah, that was the first kind of scary experience. And I think back to when I was listening to David Goggin's book and him talking about trying to qualify for bad water and him kind of pain blood and I'm like, I never wanna be this lunatic, I think. I've only got one life and one body. I don't wanna push it out like this. So, just not considering my health, it seems silly, but some things you just can't avoid, right? - So, and that kind of ties into the injury question, but identity, would you call yourself a runner now? - Sure. - Mm-hmm. - So, if and when, just when, we all get injured, I wasn't expecting that kind of injury. So, most people, when they get started, it's to do with their muscles and their ligaments and that kind of stuff, but it's more related to that, which puts them out for a few weeks or whatever, depending on what it is, tattoo it. How will you deal with it? Do you think if your identity is now quite connected to being a runner and you can't run for some reason for a little bit? - I've got a lot of track history with this in martial arts in particular Jiu Jitsu because it is a full contact sport and I've had more injuries than I can even remember. The amount of ligament tears and bone breaks and sprains. It's just been endless. And in many cases, some of them had me out from training for 12 months or so long. - Oh, wow. - And it's incredibly frustrating. But I realized that anything in life is about progress over perfection and injury and hurdles and obstacles are, they're inevitable, they're gonna happen. It's just a matter of when. And so it's just a matter of recognizing them, checking the ego and then managing them as effectively as you possibly can and rehabbing your way back to hopefully your prior levels. So yeah, that's the process. You just gotta be patient sometimes. - Do you think also attaching your identity is something that's a little bit broader than say just one activity? Could help. Like I'm somebody who likes to stay healthy as I can or I'm like someone who likes to move, whether I can't run for a little bit, but maybe I can swim or I can cycle or I can walk or whatever it is at that period. - Yeah, I'm the believer of this idea of multi-faceted identity. So I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an author, a speaker, I'm a martial artist, I'm a runner, I'm an animal sanctuary owner. And because I have such diverse interests, I feel that diversification allows me to just put my energy and my creative focus into other pursuits. And I also realize that there's seasons, right? And there's seasons where things must give way for others. So I think it is important for anybody who does have kind of an obsessive personality similar to myself, that you must have diverse interests because it can be catastrophic when you've got all of your eggs in my basket and outside of your control, your ability to pursue that interest is impacted. So I think it's so important to have that diversity or if you don't have it, then look for it and fill that space with other things. - Why do you think you've been so drawn to, like you didn't just start running, you didn't just go to case five, case 10, case 21, marathon or whatever, or even you didn't just stick to a 10k, you didn't just stick to a 5k park run? Why do you think you've been so drawn to, they're not the extreme necessarily anymore? They used to be when I first started running ultra distances, like a marathon seemed extreme. Why do you think you're drawn to that, to the longer distances in our culture, if you like, they feel like the longer distances? - I've always prided myself on doing hard things and challenging myself and what I'm capable of. So I guess the thought had never crossed my mind of doing that in terms of running, but I guess now that I've experienced it, I don't think there's any purer way athletically to test yourself than long distance running. And now that I've discovered it, I'm really enjoying it. But it's something that I strive for in all aspects of my life. I want to do incredibly hard things and prove that I can. - Yeah, I love that. I've spoken to a lot of people who do ultra distances, whether it's one, 200 miles or multi-day events, or even there's the Transcendental Shree Chimney, it's a mug thing. They do, I'm really terrible at pronouncing the name or even describing it, but they do, I think it's 3,200 miles, might be miles in and it goes for like two months and they go around this lap in New York, which is, I can't remember the distance, it's found a park in New York. They have to be there at 6 a.m. in the morning and it finishes at 6 a.m. at night every day and they do that for like two or three months. But the whole purpose and the reason that it's even, that I try and say the word "transformative" is because it's like this monk identified just how transformative running and because as you said, the pure form of it actually is for us. And I've noticed a thing for a lot of people that I talked to on the podcast, tend to be ultra runners. And when I ask, you know, why do you run these super duper long distances, from our, you know, I've done talked to world champions as well as, you know, just our everyday ultra runners like me and you. And everybody says it's the transformative effect that they feel that, or they give him, Pat Farmer said to me, he put it really well, that he loves the experience of being broken down, like literally breaks you down. But by the time he finishes one of his events or runs around Australia for the Yes campaign or whatever he's doing, he's built back up again. It's that transformative experience that he goes through each time that he finds empowering. That's one of the reasons he does it because, you know, you're more in touch with who you are and who you're becoming, which is always changing. And I just find that it's fascinating. And I think you kind of described it as well in a similar way as to why you're drawn to it and to doing hard things. But running, as you said, is one of the simplest forms of hard things that we are accessible to the most people, I believe. Exactly. Yeah. And it's interesting. In my first ultra that I did, I listened to the ultra marathon man by Dean Carnezis. And it was about the midway point, fortuitously, where he said, your legs take you the first half and it's your mindset that takes you the other half. Yeah. And that's my measure for life. I think life is a game. And most of that game is a game of mindset and perception. And we have so many subconscious lenses that dictate the quality of our experience and realizing that we are in control of those lenses and by controlling those lenses that we can drastically change and alter absolutely everything about our existence and bend it to our will. And yeah, I think running is just one of those modalities that reinforces that. So I'm really enjoying it. And the journey is just beginning. And it is. I love talking to you. Yeah, look forward to plenty more achievements to come. I love it. But in saying that, like you've had this goal, like another thing I ask people, are you goal driven, do you think? Or will you just get up and run for the pure joy of running every day? Where there are people who like, I have to have that scary 100k goal or whatever it is out there to run like a purpose to run? And that could change over your life of running too. What your motivation is each day? - I'm very goal oriented. So I definitely need to have something to work towards. And even since being disheartened by the Cosi 100 on Friday, even though the stuff at the weekend, it altered my motivation. And so having to regroup on that and work towards the next thing. But in saying that, I don't necessarily want to be that type of person. I want to be able to make a decision to do something. And that becomes a non-negotiable in the way I choose to live my life. And the one thing that resonated me with me most in David Goggins book is always be ready. - Yes. I've had a few of my world class athletes on here say that that's all they want. They train, they don't train what I ask them that question. Well, I could run a 100k tomorrow if I really wanted to because I trained at a level where I can. So I can just jump in to an event that might be open for me to jump into at any given moments. And that's how they like to be. Yeah, that's how they do their training and handle it. But it's like, oh. Whereas other people, you know, like you said, they need that goal at that time in their life anyway. It works for them to have the scary ask goal to chase, to get them out of bed and motivated, to moon and be uncomfortable. What is, in saying that, what does your training look like now? Like, what does your average week look like? How are you moving? - Yeah, so I'm a bit of a spreadsheet nerd. So in heading up to my ultra, I decided to build a spreadsheet for all of my nutrition and all of my training plan. So at the moment, I'm averaging about 50K a week, which is split between kind of easy runs, tempo runs, long runs, so on and so forth. And it's really just about consistency and getting the reps up. I wouldn't say that my running is hard. Most of it's kind of design two training and it's just kind of plotting along and sprinkling in their kind of strength training and continuing to build up the speed and the interesting thing. And like so many people have said this when I was first starting, is that you have to run slow to run fast. And it's so true. It's interesting just to see that the more I pace myself and I do that kind of that low impact, low heart rate training, I'm smashing PBs like left, right and center. So it's just continuing to build that cardiovascular base. I'm slowly improving VO2 max and it's just making the space to do the work. That's probably the most challenging part. I'm very fortunate that I've got a lot of, yeah, I've got a lot of flexibility about business. I've got a phenomenal team and I've got to a point of my business career where my value is not measured by the hours that I do anymore. It's the impact of what I do in those hours. So I'm very fortunate that I can block that timeout and get it done. I think the most challenging part for most people, it's not necessarily challenging for me is making that time for the long runs. Like being, going and running for two or three hours is challenging. Like, even Gene said, he's like, sometimes you're just going to rely on less sleep and you've got to be better run at night or early in the morning, you've got to make space for it. - Because you're in a hot place too. So it's not like you want to run in the middle of the day. Matt. - Call me, call me whatever you like. But I actually quite like running in the middle of the day. So I actually quite enjoy it. So I just, I think it's an added element that needs to be considered as part of the overall training. So, yeah. - So would you, like if you have your calendar a week ahead, so I'm a planner on a Sunday. I will look at whatever my meetings, but my meetings don't even get in there if they clash with my regular running slots in my calendar. So the meetings tend to be around when I've already put in my, so running comes first, that's the priority. And then my meeting's coming after that, but I would look a week ahead. I guess that's really what I'm saying. Are you a bit like that too? Do you look ahead for the week, what's coming up and then plan appropriately? - I'm big on managing my calendar and the calendar is gospel. So once that something's in the calendar, it gets done. I'm an afternoon runner. So I typically run four until five, five to 30, depending on what I'm running on that day. And then on the weekend, I take Wednesdays off. So Wednesdays, Wednesdays my rest day. And then I'll usually do my long run on a Saturday and then follow that up. And that long run at the moment's usually about 20K. And the plan is ramping up as I head towards the, the cosy 100 day. And then I usually follow up with a 10K on a Sunday. So once again, trying to reinforce running on sore legs, which is like, it's been game changing, realizing that sore legs doesn't mean useless legs has been a pivotal part of my training. - I love that. Yeah, it is really important. I think you ever mentioned earlier, my coach had me when I was training for the 100K doing double run days. I think you mentioned that you had also done that. So that's that, you know, running on tired legs is very valuable, I think, you know, rather than necessarily just running for 30 or 40Ks in one session. You run still 30 or 40Ks in a day, but it's over two different sessions which need less chance of injuries as well. - Yeah, I often found, after the second run, I feel better. And it's just, once again, it's another one of those counter-intuitive things, where when you go and if you just pace yourself and work your way through it, I always feel better as a during and after. - Yeah. It's one of those things even on this podcast who said many times people say I'm too tired, I can't start running. - And then it's like-- - So I'm gonna show my headset just cut out. Give me one second. - Can you hear me? Hello, hello. I'll just keep talking. I could do that forever. - Go chat. - I could just keep talking and talking. Oh, on the podcast, we often talk about how you think you're gonna get tired because you've gone for a run, but the reality is when you go for a run, for most people, it actually will give you more energy to do the rest of the things you have to do in life. I had five children and I was swear that I could never have kept up with them if I hadn't been a runner at the time. I think it just gave me a lot more energy to be the kind of mum who could run around and do all the things with the kids and to this day, I still do, including with the grandkids, so. But it's because of running. It gives me that energy. It doesn't take it away being-- - Yes. - Which I think is awesome. A question I ask everyone is, what do you think your life would be like if you had you not adopted running this year? Like, what would you be missing? Was it given here, but in a positive perspective? - I think I would be missing the confirmation that I can achieve anything I put my mind to, right? And I think it was proof that I will rise to the self-limiting beliefs that I have and those invisible seedlings that I accept for what they are. It's so easy for all of us to put certain goals and milestones with no context on a pedestal. I can still see the image in my head of previously thinking about running the pyramid race. - Yeah. - And like I went and ran it again on Saturday and it was a breeze. - Of course. - And I'm like, wow, imagine living the rest of my life with that belief being reinforced and not going out and proving it to be wrong. And where else does that exist? So I'm grateful for the opportunity that running as a platform gave me to smash those self-limiting beliefs down and realize that I can do whatever I put online to. - Well, with that being said, how long do you think you'll run for in your life? - I think I'll run forever until I'm no longer able. I see so much value in running and I think it's a lifestyle choice that people should make and they should make that decision in whatever capacity they possibly can for the rest of their days. - What does your partner think about your running? - So we've been on a little bit of a fitness journey together and she's focusing a lot more on the weights and strength and side of things, but she's super supportive of all of the crazy things that I do. And yeah, she's all for it. Not necessarily for her. I've made her go and hike the pyramid a couple of times. - Yeah. - And she enjoyed it, but not necessarily her, Jan. Yeah, she's very supportive. - Well, not right now anyway. Not everybody who runs have still run ultras either. Running could just be 5Ks or whatever, doesn't matter. And in the same vein, what are your family and friends who, you know, gone from this Jackson that they knew who admitted earlier on in the podcast that running wasn't for him. He was never going to be a runner to the Jackson now. Like how are they seeing this new person? How are they reacting to that? - Yeah, my mum is always terrified and she's always scared of a lot of things and just tells me to be careful and not to push myself too hard and that kind of thing. But she's very proud of what I've been able to achieve in all aspects of my life and with running included. As I mentioned before, many of my friends have decided to start running or pick up running again or if they were running, take it to the next level and get back to competing. So that's been really awesome. - Beautiful. - And yeah, and also in my team, my leadership team, particularly, they're pushing themselves to go and do other things. And I've got a team member who's looking to do a full triathlon shortly and a couple of other things. So I think this is the thing. We should talk about these things publicly we should share it and Australia is so, we're so guilty for this tall poppy syndrome where we don't like to talk about our achievements or our goals or even our failures because of the fear of being judged and look down on from others have been kind of braggadocious and egotistical. It's our duty to focus on rising, focus on having rising ties lift all ships, to elevate the quality of the people that we surround ourselves with. So I think we should all declare it more publicly and it's proof that we can inspire others to go out and do great things. - So everyone that you know who, listen to this podcast who starts running to come on the podcast as well. So they can help lift all those ties. - Exactly. - Get everybody running. - I must say, I procrastinated about coming on and chatting with you because I'm like, "Who am I?" I like to talk about running and I'm just a guy who started running a couple of months ago and I still am working stuff out. And, but I think it's important that no matter your level of experience, we all have an experience and that's because of the way that we've lived our life and the reasons behind what we do and sharing that experience is motivating for others. And I always find it very interesting listening to other people's motivations and stories and it's great that you provide this platform for runners. - Yeah, I don't think it matters whether you've run for a week or 30 years. There's so much to be learned from everyone's story 'cause it's not just about you running. It's how you got to where you are now. And in fact, sometimes it's much more fun to interview people who've just started running 'cause they are so enthusiastic. They're so awesome. I love it. Yeah, anyway, so I thank you for coming on. Before we wrap up, one of the things I always ask people is for some tips for beginner runners, which I will ask you in a minute. So with understanding that, I also would like to ask you, is there anything about running that we haven't touched on that you'd like to share? Obviously, I'm gonna ask you about tips in a minute. So anything else about running itself that you'd like to share? - I did just run your own race, right? I think there are, particularly in the age of social media and Strava and all of these things. It can be very easy to compare yourself to others and that can be, get you in a negative headspace and you can beat yourself up about it. And I think it's just important that you can look for inspiration externally, but you should only measure yourself internally by your own achievements and focus on that progress of a perfection. And that's gonna come to the tips that I'll share as well. What I've found is work best for me in terms of creating motivation and intrinsic drive in my training plan and continuing to ramp it up and compound it so quickly. - Yeah, that's perfect. All right, tips, Jackson, give us some tips. Somebody comes up to you and they already have by the sound of it. Come up to you and say, I want to start running. Looks like you're having a good time doing it, so I want to give it a go. Where would you tell them to start? - Yes, so I like to use principles from business and I think they're universal. So as Peter Drucker says, what gets tracked gets measured and what gets measured gets improved. One of the best investments you can make is get a fitness watch whether it be an Apple Watch or something else and track your running. Come up with a plan and work on just starting with something that is sustainable. There's no point going out and running 10 kilometers on one day and the aim is to try and break it down over a certain number of days and focus on your cumulative kilometers per week. That was my first mistake that Glenn helped me overcome and the idea is, and this is the system and the commitment that you must make. You, whatever you start doing, you never stop doing and each week you must add a little bit to the number of the distance that you're traveling and that never goes backwards. So typically general rule of thumb is try and increase it by 10%, but even if you increase it by 1%. So let's say this week you run 10 kilometers and next week you run at a 10.1, right? Yeah, but then you never go back again. So then the week after that has to go to 10.2 and it just becomes this momentum building exercise. And that's what I've done kind of week on week of trying to increase it by 10%. And as I mentioned last month I did 200k, this month I'm aiming to 250. So we're continuing to ramp that up. I think the big part is run slow to run fast. So like 70 to 80% of your runs I've found doing them in zone two to be most beneficial in terms of low impact, low soreness and being enjoyable because I'm not kind of hyperventilating and dying the entire time. And it ensures that I minimize the likelihood of injury. And then I think the last point is go book a race and push yourself, find something that scares you a little bit. So for you it might be a 10k, it could be even a 5k and maybe it's an ultramarathon and whatever it might be. Go book a race because when you've got something that you're working towards that is skin in the game it will drive you to that next level. And I found it in Jiu Jitsu as well. When you've got a competition you're training just elevates and therefore your progression and your skill will elevate. There's nothing quite like competition to raise the stakes. - And if you don't go book it straight away when you thought about it, you might not get in. - Yeah, exactly, that's a hard lesson to learn at her. - My daughter has got addicted to running recently, my 30 year old daughter. And she's doing 100k in the surf coast something or other. In a couple of weeks and I've got to go down and support her in Victoria. So that'll be first, her first 100. But I only say that because she's had a number of times where she's wanted to do a race and then she procrastinated entering and didn't get it. It's very popular at the moment. That's kind of the point of that little rant is that if you want to do it you should book it as soon as you can because at the moment is quite a swing for especially ultra trail events and they're booking up quite quickly. Jump in and then you have something to train for and it'll push forward. - Thank you Jackson, that was an amazing conversation. I have picked up so many awesome moments of inspiration showing you I would talking to you because that's what you do in your everyday life as well, helping people with their finances and their everyday life in an inspiring way. So I really appreciate you coming on here and sharing the same sort of messages but through the running filter. It's been amazing and I knew it would be. So I do appreciate you sharing your time and we'll have to check in next year and see how. If you're going to count your brain, my brain was like, okay, so if it's just going to keep increasing this time in a year's time, how far are you running in a week? I'm going to have to check in and find out just how far you will be running in a week or in a month by then. Yeah, that'll be fascinating. Everyone will want to know as well. Again, thank you so much. Don't jump off straight away but I do appreciate the time has been with us. Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you for listening to the FitMind FitBody podcast. I'd love to talk to you about your running journey. Send me a message on Facebook or on the website and let's do it. I also wanted to let you know that I've created an email list so you won't miss any podcast episodes. You'll find details in the show notes and on the FitMind FitBody website along with a bunch of resources on mindful running. They'll help you to get and stay mentally and physically fit. And I'll see you there. Plus, I'll be back here in your podcast player a few times a week. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And before you go, I'd really appreciate it if you would leave a review. It'll help more people to find the podcast and get inspired to start running and automatically to improve their life. See you soon. (upbeat music) [ Silence ]
