I love it. Thank you. (upbeat music) - Okay, love it. This is my first bed podcast. See, that's the idea. Like, no one's doing this. - It's so great. - Okay. Tony, are you ready to get in bed with me? - See. (laughs) - Should we speak Spanish? (speaking in foreign language) - Oh, I can't hear you. - Easy. - Okay, I love it. Okay, everyone, welcome back. I have Tony Lara. - Yeah, it's a Mexican name, so you can roll the R, yeah. - Tony Lara, she is a bisexual sober expert, sex expert actually, and author of Dry Humping. Here's her book. It's actually pretty. Thank you so much for coming. - Thank you for having me, my love. - I'm so excited. A lot of people worry about needing alcohol for like courage. So, what was your experience, and what are some advice to stop needing in to like talk to people, be on a date, or do whatever it is that you have to do? - I mean, that is literally why I wrote this book, because when I quit drinking, why I wrote Dry Humping? - Believe it right there. - When I quit drinking almost eight years ago, the thought of dating, let alone having sex without alcohol, just like truly scared the shit out of me. So I needed resources on how to do it, how to literally do it. So that's why I wrote this book. But so to answer your question, I relied on liquid courage my whole sexual life. Teen years early in 20s, I quit drinking at 29. I relied on liquid courage. And now that I've done a lot of recovery work, I know that all of that was self-medicating anxiety, depression, PTSD. I just, taking a shot of tequila, tequila, tequila. Taking a shot of tequila was a hell of a lot easier than doing the work to actually be confident. - Yeah, and feeling the discomfort too, 'cause it might be uncomfortable, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. You just feel the discomfort. - Exactly. So I really dug deep in my own recovery and journalistically, as you know, I interviewed so many people about like, what actually is liquid courage? Why do we as a society rely on this as our default behavior or activator, you know? - Yeah, and it's usually not just a shot. It's like a shot or two while you're getting ready. And then on the date, if you're dating, it's like a bunch of other drinks. - Yes. - And you talk about piecing together the night, the next morning, which is like, so many people go through that. It's like, you have to go through your texts. You have to speak to your best friend if you were out with them and like, "Hey, did I do anything embarrassing?" Like, what happened, et cetera. And it's like, why do you not want to remember? And it's also like, you don't remember, but if you did do something shitty, then it was still you. Like, you should have responsible for your actions even if you don't remember them. I used to have a friend and he's like, "Don't tell me what I did." I'm like, "No, you actually hurt me." And I want to talk about it. He's like, "Well, no, 'cause I don't remember "and I don't want to." Especially if I fucked up. And I'm like, "Yeah, but like, what about me?" Like, I want to talk about it. He needs to know that his behavior is impacting other people. So I actually love this book, especially if you have a healthy relationship with alcohol or drugs. Maybe it's not for you, but maybe you have sober people in your life or you do have or you do want to reduce or completely eliminate drinking. And then it's an amazing resource. Well, it's interesting you say that 'cause I'm actually finding that people that have a healthy relationship with alcohol are still resonating with this book because maybe they know how to have a glass of wine or have a beer every once in a while, but it's like, how do I have sex with my husband without having a glass of wine first? So it's like, I am alcohol-free for almost eight years, but you don't have to be alcohol-free or even sober curious to question your relationship with alcohol, be mindful of how your relationship with alcohol intersects with your love life, dating life and romantic life. Yeah, that's true. I have never been fully sober, but I used to drink way more. And now it's like, sometimes I'll have a drink, but I'd rather be sober. I'm more present, I connect more, sex is more enjoyable. If I am slightly drunk, it's like, I'm dizzy. I just, it's not my thing. Well, exactly, that's exactly it. And it's like, it's the liquid courage that you don't, I mean, you don't need it. You don't need it anymore. No. You never needed it, but like, you've also found-- That's probably when I was younger, but like, it's just not worth it. I'd rather do the work, honestly. And also, I literally got a message yesterday, like, hey, I wanna start dating, but I don't drink. I'm worried about people like, or not being able to go on dates. And it's like, you can have endless dates that don't involve drinking. And when I'm out for dinner, I'm like, hey, I just don't feel like drinking. And no one's said anything literally ever. It's like, okay, then don't drink, or like-- Yeah, that's not drinking. Like, it's fine. You know, what's so interesting is like, when I quit drinking, I totally relate to that question that your follower asked. It's like, I couldn't imagine someone who A, had a healthier relationship with alcohol, or B, just didn't even drink. It was just like, I would go on dates and some people, I would tell people, oh, I don't drink. And some would be like, oh, yeah, I mean, either. Or I don't really drink much. Some people just-- Or their reliefs, it's like, oh, good, I didn't wanna drink anyway. It's like, oh, perfect. And there's this societal pressure again to-- They were going to do it just because you're on a date, right? And it's like, no, you don't have to. And I have a dating series about this, well, not about this, but like, so many date ideas that are out of the box of drinks or coffee. And I thought we could brainstorm a little bit. - Let's do it. - Pottery class. - Oh, I love that. - There you go. - Okay, because it's interactive, you know? Anything like a zoo, botanical garden, like walk around and go see cool shit. - Cooking class. And you don't have to drink during a cooking class. And like, anything you do can involve drinking if you fucking want it to, but like, it doesn't. You can play bull with mocktails, I love playing bull. You can bowling, even though it's like cliche. I love bowling, it's gonna say fun. - Bowling go, roller skating, ice skating. - Do an arcade and like, do all the little silly games with like the tickets and win a fucking stuffed animal. That's fun. I did, for my birthday, I did an appetizer at a restaurant, main course at another restaurant and dessert at another restaurant. And like, it was amazing. Like, it was so fun. - Oh, 'cause you're like hopping around. - Yeah, I was just hopping around restaurants for my birthday. I love that. That's great. One of my friends had a birthday party at this indoor adventure, like an adult adventure place. So there's like indoor rock climbing. There's like, you're in a harness and you're like flying around the room. And it was just, it was so fun. And like, I think everything that we're saying, like the central theme is like, it's an activity. - Yes, okay. As long as the main activity is not drinking, which is what I hate, it's like, is that all we're doing? Like, that's fucking boring. It's do something. And if you want to add a drink, add a drink, but like, do something else, I have to be, that doesn't revolve around, you know, having a fucking drink, that's just boring to me. - It really is. And it also helps, like, just the movement helps get rid of some of the first date jitters. - Yeah. - You know, like if dating's awkward, like let's be real, dating's fucking awkward. So if you can incorporate movement in any sort of way, that's gonna just help you literally get that, because I eat it out of your body. And even if you're just having coffee, you're still just like staring at each other. - Yeah, and you have to sit still, which is like fine if you're anxious. - Literally. - And to say that. - You know what I do when I have to sit still. But even maybe you'll appreciate this. If I want, like right now, if I'm on camera, or if I'm interviewing someone, and I don't want to like tap, you know, I'll do Kegels. - So I'm moving. - Obsess. - I'm moving. - Obsess. - But you can't see it. - You cannot see it. - You can't see it. I'm doing it now. - That's so fun. - Right? - Oh my God, that's so ingenious. - Insider tips. So if you are having a coffee day, do Kegels. That's a good way to get rid of some of your energy. - And then you'll say thinking about sex, which is also great. - Yes, it's a win-win situation. - Literally. - And you're strengthening your pelvic floor, it's amazing. - Exactly. - Oh my God. Okay, I love it. Okay, let's get into the actual effects. Like what does alcohol do to our bodies, especially this actually, this is not sex. So this was, this is huge. So, you know, Brene Brown, she said, "You know, you can't selectively numb emotions." And I cite that in my book. And the reason I cited is because a lot of us drink because we're nervous, we're anxious, we're, you know-- - Or pressured to. - There's so many reasons that we drink on a date. But you cannot selectively numb emotions. So if you're drinking on a date, you're not just numbing your anxiety. You're also, it's alcohol is a central nervous system depressant. So you are quite literally not feeling maximum pleasure when you are having drunk or even slightly inebriated buzzed sex. You're not feeling maximum pleasure because there is this numbness to your central nervous system. - Overall numbness, yeah. Okay, and it's also what about other, like sexually consequences, like erections or even being lubricated, the friction. - Exactly, it can lead to erectile dysfunction. This is again, excess alcohol abuse. We're not talking about having a glass of wine every once in a while. You know, it can lead to, yeah, also vaginal dryness. It can also dry out your mouth, it dries out your skin. So it's like you're not performing to opt at your optimal level. And again, you're not feeling maximum pleasure. You know, we need, you need lubrication. - That's pretty important. - Use fucking lube. - It's pretty important. - Yeah. - Yeah, and people have a heart attack coming too. So, yeah, and also the consent thing is very important as well, especially if you have way too many drinks, which is why I also want to bring the subject of sex parties, which is at the end of my question list, but we can bring it up now. - Let's do it, I'm gonna grab my coffee. - Yeah, you do you, we're in bed. You can do whatever you want. - Thanks for letting me wear jeans in bed. - Yeah, I'll do pajamas. - There we go. - Okay, let's talk about sex parties. - Yes, okay, so literally 'cause I saw you quoted Zachary saying, which is one of my very good friends, and he's extremely right. He says, even at sex parties, drinking is discouraged. 'Cause like, in sex parties can get really wild and everyone's sober, most people are sober, and you have the kinkiest sex you've ever seen. You have seven people orgies. You have orgasms all around the room, and you don't, no one's needing alcohol to feel these things, like it's possible. You don't need alcohol to be wild or sexually liberated, like it's there, and people, we're doing it. - We're doing, I mean, I went to one of, I'm sure you know, Lola Jean. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, she's coming on tomorrow. - Oh good, so I went to one of her recent play parties. She's doing afternoon play parties, which I love, because I can't go to something that starts at 10, like I can't do it. - I love the brunches, it's like one PM to eight PM. Like I'm there. - No, it was like a one to six, and it was daytime of course, but it was also substance free. There were no drugs or alcohol. - So the brunch. - And it was one of the wildest afternoons of my life, but it was a wild party, and I was like, I was just sitting there, I was like, obviously I was having fun, but it was also like, as an anthropologically, I was like, look at all these people at three o'clock in the afternoon doing weird shit in Tribeca. - Literally, sober. - Sober. - And like at two PM, it doesn't even have to be late at night. I am the most pro person for like morning afternoon sex. I've had a lot of group play in the afternoon, 'cause I'm like, I am not doing this at midnight. It's just not fucking happening now, I need sleep. I need a, if I do, I need a big nap. - Oh yeah. But then the next day is like fucked up, and no. - Exactly, I'm a morning person. - Same. - Yeah, it's, if you want the best version of me, it's not gonna, you're not gonna get it at night. After like eight PM, honestly. I'm like, it's half of me, you're getting half of me, and I wish I could give you all of me, and this does not happen. - You want all of me book me at like one or two. - I've had braces at seven a.m., but I'd woken up at like five 30 or something, so I was refreshed, but they hadn't even gone to bed. It's like, I was there, I was ready for everything, and they were like, we're so tired. I'm like, you guys invited me over, like, come on, we're having a fucking threesome. - And you're like just starting your day. - Yeah, and I'm like, this is basically the star we did, and they're like, we're going to bed now, and I was like, okay, bye. - And it's, the reason I quoted Zach is, because he also touches on the consent's factor of like, that's why play parties are, it's discouraged to be fucked up, because consent is huge, and I interviewed a lot of sober porn stars, who talked about how like on set, you have to have your signing a document that says that you are not under the influence, because you're at work, you know, people don't realize you're at work, you're performing, your job is to perform and look good while you perform, right? And consent. - Consent, no, literally, that's why these clubs, sex clubs, discouraged, not that there's no alcohol involved, but like, if they see you're fucked up, you're getting kicked out, because you cannot consent, and no one wants to, at least in those places, luckily, no one wants to take advantage of a drunk person, like literally, we want you to have sex with us. - And you don't want to have sex with someone whose eyes are rolling in the back of their head. - Exactly, like that's also not something. - If I don't see you into it, and in the moment, I'm gonna be like, I literally don't want to have sex with you, like, do you need water? (laughing) - Let me get you some coffee. (laughing) Okay, you talk about how being sober has helped you embrace your bisexuality. Let's talk about that. - Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I knew that I was bisexual from a young age, but I never felt, I was like 14. - Oh, wow. - It was when I watched the music video for Lenny Kravitz again, is Lenny Kravitz and Gina Gershon, and I was like, I want to make out on both of them. I love that. - You know? - Oh my God, obsessed. - So, and I'm very grateful to have two queer family members, so I knew that there was nothing wrong with that, with my attraction. - That's amazing. - Which is, like, I've never felt shame. I'm very, very grateful for that. But I did feel a lot of imposter syndrome, a lot of not-enough-ness. - Not being by-enough? - Not being by-enough, because all of my long-term relationships have been with men. It doesn't matter how many women I've dated or had sex with. I've never been in a long-term relationship with a woman, therefore, I didn't think I was bisexual enough. - Right. - So getting sober really just clears, it cleared my head. It really cleared my head to work on my shit. And, you know, earlier I mentioned anxiety, PTSD, but on the positive note, it was getting in touch with my sexuality. You know, I followed bisexual people on Instagram, I read books, and there's finally, like, bisexual representation on film and television. - We need more. - We need more. - We need more. - We're definitely getting there, but, you know, growing up in the L-word and sex in the city era, we're a punchline. - Yeah. - You know, that leads to the internalization. - Yeah, it's like, you're either gay, or you're lesbian, or you're a straight, and it's like, okay. - And you need to pick a side. - Right about, yeah. And then, I've had, lesbians have been really mean to me. Like, if you're a lesbian and you want to be nice to me, please come forward because I'm terrified of lesbians. Like, they're so mean. - I will say some of the strongest bi-phobia I've experienced has been within the queer community. - Yeah. It's so sad. - It is. - So I'm happy we're finally getting, like, more spaces. Zach and I were just at bi-week in Jamaica, and it was, like, hundreds of bi people. - Yes. - And I was like, holy shit. - And how many were men? - So much, it was like a swinger saying, so it was like couples. But you would see, like, a 60-year-old man sucking another six-year-old man's dick, and I was like, that's bi-six-year-old? - Yes. - Like, that's so affirming, you know? It was amazing. I love it. I'm going back next year. - Is this hedonism? - Yeah. - Okay, I was following Zach's trip. - Yeah, yeah. - I love how he's, like, subtly here in this conversation. - I know, it's sad. Where are you? - I know. It's just 'cause it's spending so much time together. - Okay, I want to make it clear that this is not, like, being anti-alcohol. It's about you guys finding, and being mindful of if this is impacting, or how it is impacting your life, and finding that balance. And the benefits of, like, dry or sobering life, it's not like, oh my God, alcohol's the worst-fucking thing, right? No. It's just another resource. And so many people have issues with alcohol, even if it's not like, you're an alcoholic, but, like, your relationship with alcohol is not great, so this is why we're doing this. It's also such a good thing 'cause alcohol and sex have been tied together very strongly. - Yes. - For all of humanity. So this is great. I love it that you're speaking about this. - Thank you, and I'm glad that you brought up the, it's not anti-alcohol at all. Many of my close friends drink alcohol. I am not anti-alcohol. I'm anti binge drinking. I'm anti, you know, alcohol-fueled hookup culture. And just, I think anyone could benefit from being more mindful with their relationship with alcohol in general, but especially, you know, my work focuses on the intersection of how alcohol shows up in your interpersonal relationships and how being a more mindful drinker could it make you a better partner, a better daughter, a better sister, you know, like just be a better version of yourself. And I also wanted to touch on the queer community again, like alcohol, 'cause you said something about how alcohol is just like, we're introduced, the way we're introduced to it. There is this rite of passage for queer people is to go to the gay bar. And when you learn that, when you come to your sexual or gender identity with alcohol or with substances or party drugs, that could be very detrimental to your mental growth, your sexual growth, your sexual identity. Because like you're learning of like, I'm allowed to be queer, but I have to be fucked up to be queer. So, you know, a lot of people that I interviewed had to deconstruct their queerness from their relationship with alcohol. A lot of people have come out since they got sober, come out as trans. So it's, it's, this is layered. It's a really important topic. - Yeah, no, it's great. And also, 'cause when you think about queer spaces, it's usually like a Dungy bar, you know, that's like a speakeasy and no one talks about it, right? Like that's, oh my God, stereotypical idea. But, and yeah, a lot of the queer spaces are alcohol-based, but I wanna find, and there are, they're out there, activities that are for queer people, and there are so, there are activities like we were saying, and the main idea is not drinking or dancing while you're drinking, it's to play board games. - Oh, fucking draw a picture, whatever the fucking it is, or travel, like even, I'm a part of Facebook group that's called Queer Backpackers, or I don't know what the fuck it's called, and it's like, hey, I'm queer, and I'm going to this place, let's meet up, or do you wanna be my tour guide? Do you wanna do something? Do you wanna do this activity? Who else is going here? And then they all meet up, and they're all queer, and they'd go like hiking and do sightseeing, all the things, and it's like, that is so wholesome. - It is. - So there are ways to go about it, even if it's still very in our culture, to drink and be queer. - That's such a good point. There's a group here in the city that they do like queer walks around Prospect Park. I host me and my friend, Dub's Wine Blat. We co-host sober queer meetups, just because it's so important to have these queer, safer spaces that are not fueled with alcohol. - Yeah, I love it. Okay, you speak a lot about reconnecting with yourself and dating yourself. How can someone do that if they're already in a relationship? - Yes, great, great question, 'cause a lot of people like see this book, and they're like, well, I'm already in a relationship, I don't think I need this. And it's like, no, this is about relationships in general. For me, dating myself meant I took a lot of classes, like I took writing classes, I was studying Spanish. - You're doing great. - Gracias. So, you know, and the reason I bring that up is like, for me, learning new things makes me feel more confident in myself. - It's so fun. - It is, like, it's fun. I'm a nerd, I love learning. And I also met interesting people in my writing classes in Spanish class, and it didn't matter if they drank or not, because we found something in common, you know? - We had nothing to do with it. - We meet up and we study Spanish, we meet up and we exchange drafts of our writing. So, that, for me, that was a big part of dating myself and it still is, like, now, I married now, I got married two weeks ago. (laughing) - Oh my God, I thought you were, like, engaged still or something. - Yeah, no, I got engaged. We were engaged for, like, five weeks. We just did a quick little courthouse moment, yeah. - Congratulations. - Thank you. - Aww. - Thank you very much. But, you know, we still have our own hobbies. You know, he goes into his office and he'll, like, nerd out on synthesizers for hours. He does his thing. I do my things. - My nerds fell in love. - Literally. - And now they're married. - We do sober nerds, we both sober. But it's important to have an identity outside of your relationship. - Yeah, I do. - And that includes hanging out with your friends. A lot of people forget that they have friends when they get into a relationship. - You prioritize your friendship with people. Even if you're in a relationship, it's so important. - Yes, like, dating, the first chapter of my book is called Dating Yourself. But that doesn't mean that you have to be alone. It just means, like, yes, find hobbies that are, you know, important to you. But have lunch with your friends. Travel with your friends. Like, you have to figure out, the whole point of this is to figure out who you are without liquid courage. - Yeah, a stable relationship will still be there. After you go on and do it yourself, like, it's fine. You can spend a few hours apart, I promise. - If anyone that you're dating does not want you to have hobbies, get the fuck out. - Yeah. - Like, if they don't want you to see your friends, they don't want you to see your siblings, they're trying to isolate you. And don't want you to have hobbies or interests outside of them. Like, wave giant red flag. - Red flag. - Like, get out. - Get out. - Get the fuck out. - If you can, hopefully you can. - Okay. Alcohol to help body confidence, which is a band aid, 'cause you're not actually becoming more confident. You're just kind of like forgetting your insecurities for a second, and then they're coming right back at you. But a lot of people are like, oh, I just, I can wear this when I'm drunk because I feel confident. - Yeah. - So, what is it? Do people just have to do the inner work and be like, hey, no, just work on your body image? - Or, you know, unfortunately, like, that's the, yes. Basically, just nicer. - Timey will say way nicer than me. - Well, it's like, you know, I get that question a lot. It's like, how do I feel more confident without alcohol? And it's like, you want that shot of tequila. You know, you want that quick fix. It's, nothing good is gonna come from like a quick fix. There's no get rich, quick scheme, like nothing like that works. You literally have to work hard. In my book, I talk about having body dysmorphia and using alcohol to feel more confident with my body image. So I had to, once I removed alcohol from the scenario, I had to seriously do some deep work with my therapist, with myself to love my body. And it's still a daily work. It's still daily. - Oh, for sure. - My husband, I'm still, I get to say husband, no. No, he had to be very frank with me. Like, if I would be like, do I look fat in this? How does my, does my stuff? He's like, you cannot talk to me about this. Like, you have like, boundaries. - Oh my God. - Oh, I love that he was like, I think you look beautiful. I think you look great. But I cannot hear you talk negatively about yourself. And I was like, fuck, I love you. I know he's wonderful. - That's great, yeah. Honestly, and I say this all the time, but like, babies do not have insecurities. They are given to us as we're growing up. They were thrown at you and we believe them because everyone's insecure. So like, being confident when you're growing up, it's like, I'm sorry, you don't hit your body. What the fuck's wrong with you? It's like that. It's like you're speaking with your teenage girlfriends. Like, everyone's saying what they fucking hate and you're like, oh, I guess I must hate myself. So everyone, everyone I know has had to be, has had to do body work, body image work. And I've had to do so much. I've been bigger. I've been skinnier. I've been everything. And I've never felt more confident than right now because of all the work I've been doing. Yes. But I still have shitty body days and there are days when I'm like, ew, you know, but that's okay. It's not like, you know, it's not a perfect journey. And it's fine. You just have to acknowledge it and do the work and be like, it's okay that I'm having a shitty body day. I still love myself and what does my body need? How can I take care of this body right now? It's still my home, you know. I love that reframe of like it's, 'cause all of these societal pressures and insecurities come from, it's all external, but it's like, this is our home. Like this, the only one we'll ever have forever. Our bodies do so much for us. And we're so focused on what it looks like. But like, like what it does for us. But like, what does it do for you? Like it carries you through this world. Like, I mean, it digests food. How fucking cool is that? It lets you move. You walk. It gives you life, it gives you pleasure. And we're like, oh, how does my stomach look in this shirt? And so I'm like, oh, how can I nourish my body give it the fuel that it needs so that I can go do all of these fucking activities that I wanna do. I wanna go scuba diving, what do I need? How can I be better? Should I swim? Should I do, you know, whatever the fuck it is? That mindset, shifting that, 'cause it was hard. It's hard. That, it's like, okay, let me do all these things for my body and not like for how people want me to look. And no one fucking cares, like, you know? It's just, it's so bad. Weightlifting has helped a lot, has helped me a lot with that because it's like, I would die it and try to become smaller and count calories. But now that I'm weightlifting, it's like lifting heavier. Like seeing the number get bigger. That's been a mind fun. And you have to eat so much. You've got muscles to grow. Like you have to fuel your body. And it's like, 'cause before you're like trying to eat the least amount of food to be smaller. And I was like, no, I have to eat so much so that I can grow and be stronger and like take care of my body. Exactly. And taking care of your body also includes being mindful of what you put into it, which is, you know, brings us back to the alcohol of just like, it's really difficult to take care of your body and like go to the gym several times a week if you're hungover. Yeah. No, and I know doctors that are like, look, you can do G, smoke weed, mushrooms, like not all drugs, but like subjects. Please don't drink. Like drinking is so harmful for your body. Even like one drink and like I feel it in my stomach. I have a shitty night's sleep. Like even like the smallest, 'cause like I'm like an old lady on the inside, but like I feel the effects. And it's like even a small amount can have big effects on your life. So yeah. It's terrible. You don't need, there's nothing in alcohol that you need. You know, like there, anything like, you know, there was a lot of studies that are like, oh, the antioxidants in red wine. It's from the grapes. That's bullshit. Like just eat grapes. You don't need anything. Yeah. It's like fucking antioxidants. Yeah, no, it's obviously not nourishing you. You don't, you don't need it. Like if you want it, fine. Like, but again, it's this conversation is about being more mindful. Why are you grabbing, why are you grabbing that drink? There's no, like, it's fine that you're drinking. Why are you grabbing it? Like, these are the questions that you should ask yourself instead of just the default, let's go out, let's go for happy hour. Why are we going to happy hour? Like only because you're saving money, which let's be fucking on it. You're gonna drink the double the amount. You're gonna spend the same amount of money. And then you're gonna be hungry, so fucking you're gonna spend as much money as you can because you wanna, you know, satisfy their craving. And it's, you're not saving money. And then you're gonna go home and scroll on Instagram and then like binge purchase this blazer that you don't need because you're drunk. - Exactly. And that's like my own, so people like buy flights when they're drunk. - Buy flights, oh my God. - It's like, I deserve a holiday. You're like, babe, you just need to go to bed. Come on. Okay, what if, 'cause you speak about this, two people are in recovery or you listen to this and you're like, oh my God, maybe I do need to get some help, I need to stop drinking. And you meet other people that are on the same journey, but how do you avoid trauma bonding? 'Cause you met your now husband in AA, which is like the only meeting you. - I know too. - And you met him there, but like you were both three years sober by now. - Yeah. - But how can you avoid trauma bonding? 'Cause like you meet people that are like, oh my God, I get you, we're in the same place. - Yeah. - And then you start having, you know, you're the same and then you bond over that. They're like, how can you avoid this? 'Cause this is, it's dangerous. - It's very dangerous. So I met my now husband in an AA meeting, like she said, and I've only been to a handful of meetings. You know, AA is not part of my story, except for, I guess, my love story. But I did, you know, we met at about three years sober, each of us, and I introduced this story because even though I met my partner in a support group, it's actually not a good place to meet, to find love. Because a support group, a peer support group, offers safety and community and listening and dialogue and resources and anything that can taint that, it can be really messy. And a lot of relapse comes from relationships. So be cautious when, if you do start dating someone in a support group because you can be at risk for a trauma bond, which is, you know, like, I know people and I've heard stories of people that, you know, went to rehab for a 30-day treatment and then they met the love of one. - They met the love of one. - Yeah, so it's like, you know, it, sure, it can happen. But just be mindful, what are you guys talking about? What is the bond? - If your relationship revolves around recovery and that's the only thing you can talk about, maybe that's not in. - Yes, exactly. Or it's like, a lot of us use alcohol or drugs to self-medicate. Are you self-medicating the same thing? Did you experience a similar childhood trauma? And you guys talk about that all the time. This is what trauma bonding is. So, and it's like, and that's, it's very different than having, you know, yes, this happened to me too. And I am this person now. Which is why I think it worked for Nick and I because we had three years of our own recovery before we found each other. So we worked through a lot of our shit and we're still working through it. But if you meet someone in early sobriety, this is why you're not supposed to date as early sobriety. - Do you think it's like, yeah. - Be careful, like really spend time alone. Not alone, like being single is very important in early sobriety. And if you get sober while you're in a relationship, you need to spend, you still need to spend some time. - Figure out who you are outside of alcohol. And that's why there's a chapter in my book of like how to be in a relationship with someone who drinks. - Yeah, I wanted to talk about that 'cause first of all, let's do dating apps 'cause you have a whole section of like saying when to tell people you're not drinking, you're sober, et cetera. And I loved it because it's a good guide, but also do people really care that much? 'Cause like, I'm not sober, but when I say I'm like, I don't wanna drink or I really drink, they're like, okay. You know? - Yeah. - Or like how, what's your advice? Or what's your experience in it? Like are people actually that judgmental that you have to think about it so hard? Like, oh my God, when do I tell this person that I don't fucking drink? - Yeah. Yeah, it's a super common question that I get. And I split that chapter up into like, you know, option one, you can tell them upfront. You can put it on your dating profile. Like sober, sober, curious. I don't drink doing a dry month, however you wanna word it. You can wait until you're at the DMing stage. Or you can wait until IRL, wait until you're in person. Maybe it's the first date. Maybe you wanna wait until it's someone that you really care about before you share that with them. - I think it depends on your comfort level. But also at the same time, if you put it on your dating profile, you'll filter out the people that will be a dick about it. - And then you, you know, already getting like the best of it, kind of dating apps suck. - No, literally. I mean, I found being upfront to be the most efficient that worked best for me. But really what works for you. And I think it's also worth pointing out that dating while sober, curious is very different than dating while in recovery. - Mm-hmm. - Also disclosing that is a different process of like, there's a big difference between I'm doing a dry month and I am in recovery from addiction. - And I will get triggered if you have five drinks in front of me. - Exactly. So it's a very personal, how you decide to approach sober dating is very personal. And I lay out the different approaches that I took. And I give the reader conversation starters to really to get that going because it can be really tough. There's, when you're in recovery, there can also be a great deal of shame and stigma of having substance use disorder. - Mm-hmm. - You know, it can be-- - For sure. - There could be a lot of shame in that. Whereas doing a dry January, that's pretty like, trendy now, you know, it's like not really-- - It's like, oh, you're not doing it? - Yeah, exactly. - Are you still drinking January? How retro? (laughing) - So just be mindful of how you feel and what you wanna share. - Yeah, and you don't owe anyone this information if you don't wanna share it. And if you do, that's perfect. It's your comfort level, right? - Okay, I wanna mention that. I just noticed you have a ring that says, cunt, and then another one says daddy, and then I'm obsessed with cunt and daddy. - Yeah, that's perfect. - Cut daddy. - So the camera. - Cut daddy. - Oh my god. - Okay, and then if you are thinking about switching your relationship with alcohol, and you are in a relationship with someone that drinks, how can people navigate this a little bit better? - Yeah, this is a tricky one. This is probably one of the trickiest chapters to research, and right? Because a lot of relationships don't make it when someone gets sober. - And that's a necessarily bad thing. I'm like, breakups do not mean the end of the world or that the relationship was a failure. It just means maybe you're not compatible anymore, and that's fine. - Exactly. - But yeah, sometimes they don't survive it, which is okay. Hardful, and you have to grieve it, but it's fine. - Which is why there's also a breakup chapter. - Yeah. - Because I'm like, I can't write a book about sober dating and relationships without a breakup chapter, because people relapse in breakups all the time. It's heartache is the worst. - Yeah, 'cause you wanna numb yourself. - I mean, heartache is one of the worst feelings in the world. It's horribly, it's awful. Heartache and grief. So yeah, there's a whole chapter about that, but there's conversation starters in the how to date someone who drinks chapter of how to tell your spouse, your partner. I wanna try a dry month, or I think I might have a problem with alcohol. I need this kind of support. Here's how you can support me. And if your partner is supportive, that's the ideal scenario. But realistically, sometimes you might be met with some combative response. - Yeah, or like, I'm not gonna start drinking for you. - Yeah. - Like you figured out, right? - It's tough. You have to figure out what works for you. Like maybe that means no alcohol in the house, or maybe you'll allow your partner to drink in the house, but they have to keep the alcohol somewhere that you don't know about. But again, this is why I provide the conversation starters because you can say, I don't feel comfortable having alcohol in the house. They might, that might not be okay for them. You two have to find something that works for both of you. You have to compromise. - And if you don't. - And that may mean a breakup or a break. - Yeah, that might be the only solution. - Okay, let's talk about ways, or the best way, either someone casually, while dating tells you, they're sober, how can we react in the best way? And also if our partner's stable relationship is like, hey, I need help, how can we react in the best way? - I love this question because as you know, allyship is huge in the queer community. So I brought a lot of that conversation into basically how to be an ally to your sober friends. - Your sober friends, your sober partners. - Yeah, I mean, it's simple, like, I love you. How can I support you? It can go a very long way. I will also recommend, there are peer support groups for this exact scenario. Allenan is a big part of my recovery, because even though Nick and I are both sober, I still love someone who was addicted to alcohol, you know? And those problems don't go away. So going to an Allenan meeting is for people who love people who are either active in substance abuse or in recovery. And so it's a peer support group that really helps you set boundaries. It helps you, the three tenants are like, "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it." Because when it can be really tempting to go into the codependency route, trying to solve your partner's alcoholism, which you can't do, spoiler alert, they have to do it for themselves. - You can just support them, yeah, in the best way. - And you have to take care of yourself. You really like, just like your husband, when he was like, "Please do not talk to me negatively "about yourself, I can't handle it." Boundaries, people. - You have to communicate and it can be tough if your partner has a drinking problem and you don't. If you can drink alcohol in a healthy way, but your partner can't and they're trying to cut back, it can be a really trying time. But it's taking care of yourself is the best thing you can do and ask them how you can support them. - Yeah. And if it's a casual thing, if you're just dating, like you say in your book, indifference is probably the best approach. When I tell people, I don't wanna drink, they're like, "Okay." And if someone's like, "I don't drink," I'm like, "Okay, whatever." And that's the best way. It's like, don't make a big deal out of it because it's fine, it's just alcohol. - Really? I mean, that's really it, it's just alcohol and if you can take it or leave it, great. And some people, it really might be life or death. They might really-- - Right. They have to remove it from their lives altogether. So, all of this advice is like, it's just so deeply personal for each person. - Yeah, not for sure. We're just trying to give you all the resources. - Yeah. - Okay. And then, 'cause a lot of people think alcohol abuse, like that's the main issue, but you're like, no, and you say alcohol abuse is often treated as a problem when it's usually a symptom of a problem. So like, the problem's not that you're drinking so much, it's probably that maybe you're depressed, you have PTSD, what else, and how often is this the case? - Yes, I mean, I don't have a statistic, but I know everyone that I know in recovery, and I know a lot of people in recovery, we all have co-occurring mental health disorders, anxiety, PTSD, depression, ADHD, autism. Like, there's alcohol is really great at helping you mask your problems, which is why we've all used it to excess. So a lot of people think sobriety is simply just not drinking, and yes, sure, like that's a big part of it, but when you're in recovery, you really figure out why. To be able to not drink, you have to heal. - You have to heal. - Sit down on other things and be okay with not drinking. - Exactly, like if, like for me, it was anxiety and PTSD, those were the big drivers behind my substance abuse. So once I got in therapy, properly medicated on anxiety medication instead of self-medicating with drugs and alcohol, I was able to actually approach my anxiety, work with it, learn from it, but it's still something that I struggle with every day. And so that's why I'm saying like a lot of people think, oh, if my partner could just get sober, everything will get better. It's usually about to get a little bit harder because once they remove the alcohol, then you're gonna get like the raw version of them, the trauma, the mental health stuff, which is again, why I recommend taking care of yourself and leaning into peer support when you can. - I love that. Okay, I wanna say a quote of your book and then we'll finish with my last few questions. You say, "My sexual liberation is inextricably linked "to my sobriety. "Once I stop comparing my relationship with alcohol "to other people's relationships with alcohol, "I could finally see how damaging my drinking habits were. "Embrace in sexuality can be similar. "When you stop worrying about what everyone else is doing, "you can tap into what feels right for you. "Let's talk about your sexual liberation journey. "Tell us more." - Yeah, so I thought sexual liberation meant more, more, more, you know, like doing these like sex parties. - Free the people, like, which is like all the kinks, which is like, yes, and we still do that. Not knocking any of that. But for me, I really had to reel it in. Like for me, sexual liberation meant figuring out which positions I don't like, figuring out which places I do not wanna be touched. That I think needs to be talked about more, where we think about adding things to our sexual repertoire. It could also be taking some stuff away. - 100%. - Because for me, sex was largely performative when I drank. You know, I was faking orgasms. I was trying to be this version of myself that I thought people wanted me to be in bed. So really figuring out who the hell I am sexually. That's how I got to my sexual liberation. - I loved when you told this one guy, like, for the first time, like, hey, I can actually only come by myself. Never had an orgasm with someone else. And that was the first time you were like, you know, I've been faking in my whole life. And it was great. - Yeah. - That was like the start, basically the start of your whole journey right there. - It was. You know, when I quit drinking. - And that takes balls. Like, oh, it's so hard. - Thank you. - To be like, hey, like, I have a heart, 'cause we're taught that, you know, you just have to come with whatever, right? And it takes a lot of courage, even though there's nothing wrong with you, it takes balls, it takes ovaries. - I was gonna say, it takes ovaries. - It takes ovaries. - Yeah. - To be like, hey, and be that vulnerable, with a stranger, by the way. And you were like, hey, this has never happened to me. - Yeah. - So. - It was really like, I was just saying fuck you to the performance. - Yeah. - Of faking orgasms. I was just, when I quit drinking, I did not think that sexual liberation was going to be part of it, but there was something so fucking freeing about telling someone, I usually fake orgasms at this point, but I don't wanna do that with you. Like that was one of the biggest moments of growth for me, and I would have never, ever gotten there if I was still drinking. - I love that, that's amazing. - Yeah, thank you. - So much growth. - And I, in the book, as you know, I also talk about, I interviewed several asexual people who realized that once they quit drinking, they actually don't like sex. So I think that also counts as sexual liberation. - Yeah, and how. - They're also not performing. They're like, I actually don't like this. - I actually don't like doing this. - I don't like doing this. - Yeah. - And that's sad. Like if alcohol is literally making you be someone else, it's not authentic to who you truly are. And some people don't even know who they are, because they're so busy performing, right? I love it. Okay, everyone, dry-humping. There you go. We basically touched on a lot of the book, but obviously Tawny writes beautifully, and you should just read it. - Okay, any exciting projects coming up that you wanna share, or you can? - I do have some fun stuff in the works. I will say my husband and I are launching a non-alcoholic drink in a few weeks. - Like a mocktail? - Yeah. - Love. - Yeah. - I love mocktails. - So that's, we're very excited about that. He has an artisanal vinegar line, and I got into herbalism during the pandemic. So this is like really merging our two hobbies into a drink. So it's a vinegar-based botanical beverage called parentheses, so look out for that. - I love amazing. - Yeah, so it's parentheses 'cause it's like this, like a before and an after. So the before drink, we use herbs that are traditionally used to stimulate the senses, and the after has herbs that are traditionally used to just calm you down. And there's a chapter in my book about herbal aphrodisiacs, there's a lot of herbs that can not be a direct one-to-one replacement for alcohol, but some really mindful teas that you can consume. So this drink is really pivoting off of that. - Amazing. - Yeah. - Okay, what is something you wish more people knew about you? - Ooh, more people knew about me. I am a rock and roll trivia aficionado. I am such a nerd for rock and roll. So my dad's not regular trivia people rock and roll trivia. - It's very very specific. My dad is a heavy metal musician, and my mom was his groupie. So music was a huge part of my life. I grew up going to heavy metal bars like my whole life, which is, I think, contributed to my-- - 'Cause you look like such an angel. I literally do not see you, like, listening to heavy metal music. - Yeah, no, I mean, I have tattoos. I have a big vinyl collection. Music is very important to me, but my mom, so my dad's the musician, but my mom is like the trivia nerd. So I grew up listening to music, and my mom was like, okay, who's the singer? What's the band called? How many albums did they have? Where are they from? So I'm hoping one day in my life I'm on a pop culture trivia show where I win a bunch of money using this arsenal of knowledge. - Yes, oh my God. - And do you have any bars in New York that do rock and roll trivia or not? - You know, I don't know. I should look into that. - It's New York, you'll find it. - I mean, there's a community for everything in New York. - Will you get competitive? I'll be like, well, no, 'cause you'll just win. - I'll just win. No, I will definitely be competitive, and I'll be really, really mad at myself if I get an answer wrong. - Okay, it's okay, you're doing great. Okay, what is something you wish more people did? It people did more, Jesus. - Something I wish people did more. - Critical thinking, okay? - Yeah, I think that is why we are in such a polarizing time politically. I don't think, I wish critical thinking skills were part of traditional education instead of just following along with voting the way your parents vote. Ask them why they vote that way. Ask yourself why you vote the way that you vote. What values do you hold close to you? And read about them, think about them, like you might find out that you are wrong. That's actually the goal, that's the goal of science, right? I mean, you go through these experiments expecting to be wrong. So I think we should find ways to implement more of that into our daily life. - That's amazing. - Think critically. - Okay, and something you wish people did less. - You know, people think they have to hit rock bottom to find to change their relationship with alcohol or anything, really, but you don't have to hit rock bottom to make a change in your life. - I love that, even with therapy, usually people come with their already in a crisis and it's like, no, you can catch it way before that. If you're really happy with your life, that's the ideal moment you have therapy. - That's a good time to start therapy. - And then you'll be even your growth, 'cause there's nothing you have to work on that hindering you from growth. And then you can only go up and it's like, you have all this time and the energy to grow. It's amazing. - It's true, and we see addiction on TV portrayed as someone's living under the bridge and their family kicks them out of the house and don't let it get to that point. This is why I'm talking about mindful drinking. You can really get ahead of that, get into therapy, find a peer support group, drink a little bit less. - Even if listening to this, you're just challenging those beliefs and you consider your relationship with alcohol. That's amazing. And if you're like, no, I actually have a good relationship with it. That's perfect. And if you're like, oh, maybe I should reduce my drinking. That's perfect. You can. You really don't have to. - It's so personal. I don't drink at all because that's what works for me, but like I have zero judgment for anyone who drinks. Like do what feels right for you. I just ask, I just really encourage everyone to be more mindful of their relationship with alcohol and to have sober sex. Just try it once. - Oh no, no sober sex for real. - It's, you feel everything more and you're there. And any scene you wanna try, you need your whole focus. - You do. - Yeah, for sure. Okay, we did it. Are you ready to turn off the lights? - Ooh, hell yeah.
