(air whooshing) Our next in-person mastermind is coming up this fall and we're heading to Vegas. We're kicking off this mastermind with an in-person tour at Zappos downtown Las Vegas campus, where you'll learn their strategies behind company culture, core values, employee engagement, and customer service. Looking outside the legal industry for business concepts and strategies allows you to gain fresh perspectives and innovative solutions that can be applied to improve and differentiate your firm's operations. Following the tour are the mastermind hot seats. Every attendee has the opportunity to dive deep into their business obstacles with their mastermind group and coach. We believe that nothing beats working on your firm in-person. So join us in Las Vegas on November 7th and 8th. This is your chance to break through barriers, spark new ideas, and accelerate your law firm's success. Limited spots are available. Visit maxlawevents.com for full event details and to grab your ticket today. Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast. Your hosts, Jim Hacking, and Tyson Nutrips. Let's partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer podcast. I'm Jim Hacking. And I'm Tyson Nutrips. What's up, Jimmy? Oh, we had fun. You were zooming in and out with your camera before we started, so that was funny. Yeah, like I said, I think we should have-- it would have been nice if we would have recorded that because it was pretty funny. But maybe I'll do it during the show just to throw you all off. You should, you should. I'll wait till you're not expecting it. But let's get to our guest today. And our guest today is Ron Lats. We're going to-- we're going to be talking about LinkedIn. We'll be talking about some other stuff, too. But let me introduce him really quick. Ron is a seasoned legal marketing consultant and the founder of Legal Phoenix. Make sure I got that right. Legal Phoenix is F-E-N-I-X, a consultancy dedicated to providing industry-leading marketing, consulting, and a fractional CMO services. It's funny. We don't hear a lot of CMO. We hear CFO and other things that are fraction of whatnot, not much CMO. So I'm really curious to hear a lot about that. Services to the legal community with a deep understanding of lawyers' unique challenges with their legal marketing. Ron has helped hundreds of law firms enhance their market presence, attract more clients, and transform their marketing results. And we'll get to more of that in a little bit. But Ron, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. And if you're going to do that video trick, just make sure it's when Jim's talking to not me, because I'll start laughing. I won't do it to you. I'll definitely do it to Jim. All right. Ron, why in the world would anyone interested in marketing focus on lawyers? I get to ask that question a lot. I really do enjoy it for a lot of different reasons. The first one being somewhat selfish in that I do have an appreciation for working with a group of professionals that is really geared towards serving others during some of the most difficult times of their lives. That is something that I do take pride in. I also really enjoy the challenge. For the most part, legal consumers spend their entire lives, whether they know it or not, avoiding using lawyers. But there are some instances that they unfortunately run into, that it requires their services. And I think that's a unique challenge and makes it very interesting as far as trying to bring awareness and visibility to the services that lawyers will offer. And I also just enjoy working with the group. Highly intelligent, very much though, looking at things from an analytical perspective, want to have justification for why we're doing certain things. I'm big into data, process, and understanding how all these things can work together. And I've just kind of been gravitated towards it for the past 15 years and don't really see myself leaving. - Love it. And I'm sure that we were probably just all wonderful clients to deal with and that we all listen really well to your advice and do a good job of that. Although I doubt that that's actually true. But I do want to ask you about the, before we kind of get into LinkedIn all that, I want to talk about the CMO stuff because I am interested because you just don't see it a lot. You see a lot about the CFOs and not CMOs. And I'm curious how that works when it comes to the work you do for law firms. - Yeah, you do see a lot of CFOs. You also see a lot of COO, especially with more and more law firms adopting EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system, where they'll have an integrator come into place to kind of man the ship and ensure that all the pieces are moving in the right direction. The fractional CMO piece has somewhat diverged upon the scene in recent years. And I have found that having someone at the helm that you can outsource the management of strategy kind of marketing operations and ensuring that the tactics that you've put in place are all in alignment to reach your original business goals and objectives. So similarly to the CFO and the COO, they're able to tap into an executive that has significant years of experience, right? At a fraction of the cost. I manage about a half dozen of fractional engagements where I am responsible for the entire marketing strategy. And that will include things like not only developing the strategy and ensuring that we're executing upon it, but vendor management, in-house resource management or oversight. And again, to ensure that messaging and positioning are locked down and that the left hand basically knows what the right is doing. - So Ryan, we wanted to talk about LinkedIn. Let's talk globally about what are your thoughts about LinkedIn as a platform and then maybe we can get into why lawyers should spend more time there. - I think LinkedIn is an incredible platform. I'm very grateful for all the opportunity that has provided for me. I try to show up on a daily basis where I can share my thoughts, flush out ideas, connect with other individuals and really learn from a lot of unique perspectives that are shared on the platform. It has certainly changed over the past handful of years, just like many platforms like Visibility Tenants do decline as the more pay for play model does get introduced and those platforms are trying to be monetized. But I have found it to be a great resource for me to capitalize on opportunities like speaking engagements, guessing on podcasts, and then just making connections that could be worthwhile for my clients. I don't look at it from a lead gen perspective where I think that's where a lot of firms or other individuals go wrong 'cause they're just hoping that they're going to get a lead or someone in their DM city business with them. - Okay, so that's a fantastic segue 'cause I wanted to talk to you about that part of it 'cause I don't see, 'cause you and I are seeing I die on this 'cause I don't see the connection between getting clients directly from their real lead gen and a lot of people talk about it. I know we view it more as a potential referral partner where then could lead the leads eventually but not necessarily when it comes to lead gen. - So I guess let's talk a little bit more about that then. What is the best than approach that at least the mindset an attorney should go in with when it comes to LinkedIn if they want to spend more time on it and we kind of hinted at it but I wonder if you got a little bit more insight on it. - It all really depends on what you're trying to get out of it, right? Like there are certain firms or attorneys that jump on the platform to develop relationships with other lawyers in the hopes that they might create referral relationships, right? So if you're a personal injury attorney, you're in any given market, maybe you, for example, want to capture medical malpractice cases 'cause there's a lot of lawyers in your market that always outsource that stuff. They always refer it out. So you can connect with those individuals. You can share content about your expertise or some success stories or just your experiences in that particular subset of PI so that you can be the subject matter expert. And when those lawyers get those types of cases inevitably through their website or other marketing channels, your top of mind and maybe they will refer business to you. Another instance is just outside of your own practice area, right, making connections and building relationships with the family, the criminal, the estate planning, the bankruptcy attorneys in your market that don't handle any of the types of cases that you do but they need someone within their fold to be able to provide a reliable resource to someone when their clients ask for a name or referral, right? That's just a referral part of it. I have clients that look at this and they say, listen, I'm trying to develop some subject matter expertise. I wanna be known as a thought leader and the way that I'm going to build my brand and build more brand awareness is to use the platform to maybe get speaking opportunities. Whether that's at conferences, maybe they connect with the local bar associations, put on CLEs, but they use the platform as one of the ways to make those relationships. They then bring them offline and try to find ways to do that. Could you talk a little bit about, I feel like I have a different persona on different platforms. My Twitter as Tyson Kinatest is sort of over-the-top, crazy liberal, immigrant, loving, right-wing, bashing Twitter account. But on LinkedIn, I try to keep it a little higher level, a little more thoughtful. Do you think that there's a place for that? Do you think I'm being inconsistent? Any advice on that, Ron? No, I don't think that you're necessarily being inconsistent. Like I use this platform to share insights on a very professional level. It's very rarely for me. And this is unlike a lot of other people who have consistently told me, "Hey, Ron, if you share more personal information," right? Marketing one-on-one, it's no like and trust. You share more personal information, you're going to broaden your reach, you're going to get more visibility. That's great for some individuals, right? For me, I tend to keep that stuff pretty close to the chest. I don't go and share a lot of information necessarily about the things that I do outside of work. On occasion, I will, right? Like I'm a runner, I have children, I attend sporting events and I'll share that stuff occasionally. But I don't think you're necessarily selling yourself short by keeping your persona on one platform different than another. You can let that bleed into each other. But whatever you're most comfortable with, there's no, I don't believe that there's a right or a wrong way to necessarily share your experience and your stories. I do think that if you're using the platform just for humble brags and job postings and like look at me, look at me, you're just going to drown out in the feed and people are going to ignore you. And you're never going to get any traction because it's self-serving. - So let me follow up with that. So one of my best performing LinkedIn posts of all time was about there's a program called optional practical training, which is for international students who want to sort of find a job, right? And so that was a very optimistic and positive and explanatory post. It was sort of teaching employers and potential employees how they can connect 'cause there's a real disconnect there. And that was something that just totally took off. It got shared, I think 50 times. And so I think that there's a place for optimism on LinkedIn too that you don't necessarily see on other platforms. - Completely agree. And that ties into the question that you were asking earlier about the different ways that you can leverage the platform, right? I talked about referrals. I talked about sharing thought leadership and maybe getting speaking engagements. I know lawyers were their specific strategy is to try to help their firm become more of an employer of choice. So their lawyers out there that they speak to themselves like what would I want to know as a one, two, three L? Like what are the things that I wish somebody else like took me under their wing and just showed me the light, like just showed me the ropes a little bit. And those firms, or at least those lawyers that have taken that type of approach within their firms, if they're targeting specific universities and colleges that attract students in their given market, like they're just creating like an online recruiting tool for themselves. Like they're gonna go and they're gonna try to find out if there is value alignment to see if there's an opportunity to work at some of those firms. - Yeah. Something I've noticed is what you post, I feel like sometimes what you post on Twitter or X is you could post the same thing on Instagram and you could post the same thing on Facebook and not really have an issue. But if you post it on LinkedIn, you definitely get a different reaction. I'm trying to pull up my post from last year. It was a Halloween post from last year and it was about something about being very, very scary. And I got so much, I was bashing defense attorneys, but I had put the same thing on Twitter and it got a good response. And then, but on LinkedIn, it was definitely not the same response that I expected. So we talk a little bit about the reasons or how you should craft your messaging on one platform versus another. - Listen, like if the Facebook is gonna be a little bit more receptive to the personal post, the family post, your hobbies, your interests, right? Things like that. I think Twitter and X, which I am not and have never been active on that platform, just tends to encourage a lot of conversation which side you're on, like your crew, your tribe is really gonna jump in heavy for you. Whereas, LinkedIn, right? Like there's a little bit more of a delicate balance there. There are people that do not believe that you should be sharing personal information. You see all these posts in the comments like this isn't Facebook, you shouldn't be sharing this or you shouldn't be sharing that, which I think that's nonsense. I might not do it. But others that do it and share that information 'cause it's important to them and it's part of their, how they blend both personal and their professional lives, like all day long, more power to them. - So the post of yours on LinkedIn, which peaked our interest, was all about building a personal brand on LinkedIn. And I know Gary Vaynerchuk talks a lot about how great the algorithm is right now in LinkedIn that it's as far as searchability and spreading your message to people through the people that you know is never been higher. So can you talk about what, I guess, some people might not even know what a personal brand even means. So could you start sort of that basic level and then how LinkedIn can help someone who wants to develop a personal brand? - I look at your personal brand as basically your reputation, right? It's like the things that you do behind closed doors that like people are saying about you and you're not necessarily in the room. I think it's the ways that you articulate your values as well as the things that are most important to you and hopefully that can showcase through you articulating through a post, the things that matter. So when you're trying to develop that personal brand and share that information, you share stories, you share your expertise, you share some of your experiences. The things that are going to be most important to the individuals that you want to connect with, how are you going to help them? What are the things that you can share that might make their life easier, their job easier, things a little bit that are geared towards making them more successful? Not just about sharing all the great things that you might have accomplished or done, but putting yourself in a situation in which you can leverage those stories and share them as much as you can. Call your brand, right? Like the personal brand is really what that's all about. - More on that, something I've kind of struggled with just getting my mind around was having the, we've got the business profile on LinkedIn, but we also have like my individual profile. What's the best way to optimize the two, I mean, should you and have both of them? Or and with that, what's the best way to optimize them when it comes to like, which content should go on one and which content should go on the other? - I do think it's important to have both. And I think the content on each of those serves or can serve a very different purpose. For the most part, right? Like people interact with people. Like unless you're a massive brand, right? Disney or Nike or things of that nature where people are interacting with you because it's more like consumer goods or based products and you want to engage with them in a different way 'cause they have fun campaigns like Coca-Cola and Pepsi, things like that. Very different than what you're looking at with a law firm. I think on the personal side is on the personal profile, your individual profile. That's where you share the things that I just talked about when you're trying to develop, you know, your own personal brand. It's the stories and the experiences. And then depending upon what your goal is, like what your strategy is, like that's how you can craft your content strategy to share the specific types of posts that you're gonna share. Typically that will fall onto some very specific content pillars, right? Five or six things that you tend to post about most frequently so that you can become known for that thing that you do, whatever it may be, right? Like I talk a lot about legal sales and marketing, legal technology. Like I try to help lawyers navigate the vendor landscape so they know who to choose as a marketing partner, right? When they're going through that process, what are the things that they should look for? Access to their own tools and systems, right? Like I try to put information out there that's gonna help the lawyer navigate that process as seamlessly and without friction as much as possible. I think when I look at my company page, I'm sharing more, you know, typically the articles or the podcasts that I might be on from a law firm's perspective. I think that's a great opportunity right now, right? Like I don't have a ton of employees, but for a law firm that might have, you know, a lot more. - Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right, no long-term commitments tying you down. So, what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit RiseUpMedia.com/maxlaw and Rise is spelled with a Z. RiseUpMedia.com/maxlaw. - Boys, sharing the things that matter to you most, that how you support them, if you're doing activities, you're in community involvement. Like, what's most important to you so that if someone were to go to your company page, they see the things that matter most. And if you again, depending upon what you are trying to accomplish, if you're trying to generate more referral relationships, maybe you are sharing more information about your successes, your verdicts, your settlements, the things that you did to help other people through those referral relationships. If you're trying to use it as more of a recruiting tool, you could talk about the fact that you go to a monthly baseball game, you donate and will cover the cost for an adoption, for a pet, at a shelter, whatever it is that you care about. You're sponsoring the 5K. If that's important to you, you can then share in that way on that profile so that the people that are looking at that instead of just your individual profile can get a better sense of who you are, what you do and how you might be doing it. So let me ask you about the verdicts and settlements, part of it, 'cause I'm very hesitant to do that. Yeah, the chess beating is type of marketing. I see it 'cause we do person-driven, we get great results all the time, right? But I see people post things and I'm seeing like, you're just, you just, you don't sound like an arrogant, you know, person, like a attorney that is posting on Facebook and no one really cares. So am I wrong, and if I am wrong, how much of our post should be the chess beating and how much of it should be other stuff? Jim, you talked about Gary Vaynerchuk, right? It's like, jab, jab, jab, right, or Adam Grant, like give, give, give, and then eventually you can make the ask or take. I think it's all a delicate balance. I don't think that your daily post should be about all of your successful wins and verdicts and settlements and the what was, check me out, pat on my chess type of stuff. But if you sprinkle that in one every dozen posts or so, just to share that you're good at what you do, this is what you're passionate about and we were happy for the result that we got our client. Like there are individuals out there that will remember that. But if you're just drowning the feed with that information daily, they're just gonna turn you off. So I think, first of all, if you're not comfortable doing it, I would say then don't do it. But if you can find a way to just balance that with all the other information, it will be worthwhile. So people know who to go to and the fact that you can generate really good results for them. - Can you talk about where to get content ideas, cadence, how often we should be posting, things like that, Ron? - The way that I got started is I purchased Justin Walsh's LinkedIn operating system. It's like a $150 course. I'm not sure what the cost is right now, but that really fine-tuned my strategy, my content pillars, how I was going to kind of position and message my content on the platform. And then eventually as I start getting more comfortable, like for the most part, I've been posting at least four to five times a week for the past two years or so, right? That's not to say that you have to do that. If you've never posted at all, probably gonna be a little hesitant. You're not gonna be sure what you wanna write. So I would jump in to the comments first, right? Like find information, find things that you care about, that you might have an opinion to share, if you disagree, do it respectfully. But at least this way, you can get a little bit more familiar with the platform, find people that you care about what they're posting. It's relevant and interesting to you. But you don't have to jump into the depend from day one. - It's funny, you mentioned Justin Walsh, and I know Justin Walsh from X. I do not know him from LinkedIn. So it's interesting. I mean, I follow him and he writes a lot and he posts quite a bit. And I think he's got quite a large following on X. I'm assuming he does the same thing. I just don't get on LinkedIn as much. When it comes to LinkedIn, and I don't know if we've gotten into this yet, I apologize if we have, but when it comes to frequency and like the length of posts and all that, is there one approach that's better than others? - Depending upon whose research you like, read, believe, or trust, like there will be times in which they believe the algorithm is favoring short content versus long content or short form video or long form versus video. I mean, right now with the introduction of the video feed on LinkedIn, like video is getting much more significant reach than it had before. I'm someone that typically will share mostly text-based only posts, right? There are others that will typically do a text plus an image, like those do perform well. But again, I try not to get tied up in all that stuff. I really just try to make sure like, I'm sharing the things that I know what I'm talking about. I feel like I'm gonna offer value. Like there are some posts that I write that it's funny, my wife will say like that is a novel. Like who is going to read that? And there's some of my best performing posts. They're highly tactical, right? They're very dense, but like I'm not out there trying to go viral and get 50, 60, 70,000 impressions, right? Like to think about having to like engage and respond to all those comments, like I gotta work every day. Like it takes a lot of time and I don't just want to put people off. Like I want to take the time if they took the time out of their day to engage with them. So, you know, sometimes I throw in a little snarky, sarcastic, short types of posts, right? Similar to the one that brought you to me. Like listen, there are people that look at it at the short term and the long term. There's two distinct camps here. Which one are you in? Or like making advice to agencies about like stop selling to lawyers that you know that their intake isn't on lock. And vice versa, lawyers stop investing in marketing if you can't handle the intake, right? Like it's a two way road. You both have to be accountable here. So some of those posts, you know, they get more likes than some of my others, but that's not how I'm evaluating the success of the platform. - Ron, have you seen lawyers make any big mistakes or you look at them on LinkedIn and you're like, whoa, I can't believe they just did that? - Yeah, sometimes. I mean, again, it's not the like, you could tell automatically right now these days when someone is using AI. It's like, you know, it's bookend with the emojis or they've got like language that you would never really use or you have the dash in there that's typically not going to be in a normal post. They're also sometimes where you know it's completely outsourced and you've got like a paragraph of hashtags. Again, it's not, I'm not gonna say that it is a mistake per se, but you can tell when they're not necessarily genuine and authentic or it's just, they're checking the box, right? And is that technically a mistake? No, they wanna have a presence, but like, are you going to get the rewards that the platform can provide to you? Like, that's where I think that there's the miss because you're not going to be able to. - I saw someone the other day, it was on Facebook. They had copied and pasted something directly from chat GPT. You could tell because it had those, the hashtags that were like for the bolding and all that. Like it was like, do you not know that we know what you did? Like that's, it's like, how do you not know that? I just thought it was really interesting. They didn't try to clean it up at all. I was like, wow, that's wild. - Another big one just to jump in about that is the usage of bots for your comments, right? Like, I tried to have a little fun with it. So I would respond in the comments. I'd tag the person and just put the robot emoji with a question mark and you never get a response 'cause you know that they're not behind it. Someone else is doing it. But then I started doing it. Like, people didn't get the joke and they're like, what are you doing? So I stopped on it. - Yeah, I don't, I've never tried that. That seems kind of, I don't know. It seems like a recipe for disaster if you want to do something like that. When it comes to LinkedIn, I know that a while ago, they were, they were talking about like, video is going to be a bigger part of the platform. Is there anything else that's on the horizon that you think we should be looking at to say, yeah, do more of this on LinkedIn? Do less of that on LinkedIn. I mean, video is the biggest one. Video, the video feed, vertical video, right? You have reels, you've got shorts, you've got TikTok, like vertical video has been, it's been a long time coming for LinkedIn, right? So if you are comfortable getting on camera, being recorded and you just wanna use some of your old posts and just stay them on video to try to test it out, get in the feed, see if you can increase your reach on that. I think that's something that you could certainly test out. Otherwise, there's been some rumors on the platform that those collaborative articles are gonna go away because the nonsense around like the golden badge and like the pseudo top voice badge that isn't the blue badge, if you will. So I probably like, in the beginning, jumped into it a little bit, but I would say, focus your efforts on sharing your own content there instead of just kind of pumping the content in for training LinkedIn's AI or just their SEO strategy. - Everybody wants their badge. - We spend a lot of time talking about the creation of content for LinkedIn. What about the networking aspects of LinkedIn? What are your tips for that? - Engage, right? Like if you just post in ghost, it's never gonna be reciprocated, right? When you go and if people are leaving comments and you're just not responding to them at all and you're kind of leaving them to hang, you're never gonna garner that engagement and provide yourself with an opportunity to take that digital relationship and take it offline. And those referral opportunities are gonna be shot. So I would say make sure if you are spending some time on the platform, spend a little bit of time writing your own posts or jumping into the comments, as well as balancing that with engaging with others so that you can fill those relationships. - Very good. All right, so we're about at time. I wanna make sure that people know how to reach out to you though, Ron, before we start to wrap things up. What's the best way to reach out to you? Is it LinkedIn or is it some other way if they wanna consider working with you? - Yeah, I would say go to LinkedIn. I'm pretty easy to follow there or just go to legalphoenix.com, right? I'm trying to share information as best as I can to help lawyers navigate the marketing landscape. So if you've got questions about that, I'm happy to answer them however I can. - Yeah, and for everyone, it's legalphoenixLEGALFENIX.com. So legalphoenix.com. All right, so let's start to wrap things up. I wanna remind everyone, join us in the big Facebook group where we don't have a group on LinkedIn, but we have a group on Facebook. Maximum lawyer on Facebook, we'd love to have you there. A lot of great information in the Facebook group. If you need something, just search, and I would almost guarantee that it's there. If you want a more, I guess, in-person experience, we have the trainings and everything in the guild. We have in-person experiences when it comes to the guild, so join us in the guild, go to maxlaw@gilled.com. We would love to have you. And we would love it if you gave us a five-star review, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, or if you got something from this episode, it'd be great if you gave us a five-star review, helps us spread the love to attorneys all over the world and helps us get the information and they need to run a successful law firm. Jimmy, what is your hack of the week? - Well, well, well, I'm a little reluctant to share my hack of the week, but I'm gonna- - Oh, this might be a good one. - It's a podcast, and it's a podcast about a lawyer told by his son that the dad lawyer clearly had issues. He won a case at the US Supreme Court, but he also found out that a local restaurant would give a dollar off if you brought a cork in for some environmental thing off your bill, and there was no limit on it. So he brought garbage bags of corks and ordered 10 lobsters. So the story is from his son. The attorney's name was Richard Jacobs. He eventually got disbarred. He had clear mental health issues, narcissism, and all kinds of stuff. It's a train wreck. It's really, really sad, but it's very interesting. So they did the first two episodes, and then they sort of ran out of money to keep going. Now they've got their money back and they're up running. So it's not for the faint of heart, but it's very, very interesting. - Say the name, I was so enamored with you. - It's called How to Destroy Everything, as told by the son of Richard Jacobs. - Ooh, that's a big one. That's a big pill to swallow. I'm not sure. I don't know if I can dig into that one, but it sounds like an interesting story. I just don't know, definitely interesting. Ron, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a heck of the week, what you got for us? - I've been talking a lot about LinkedIn here, and I think if you are hesitant to jumping onto the platform, when you wanna give it a shot, when you make that decision, just don't overthink it. And I think, again, you don't have to post to get started. So just think about what's your baseline strategy, right? What's the goal? Who do you wanna talk to? What are the topics that you care about, and they're also gonna care about? Then before you start even posting, start to curate your feet a little bit. We talked about developing connections. Follow people that share information that matters to you. Start reacting and commenting on other people's posts. And then you can refine your strategy, right? And then just determine how you're gonna define success, like what are some of the metrics you're going to use, and then how long are you gonna give it to take to start working for you? It's not something that happens overnight. You gotta put a time and effort into it, block it out so that you can share those posts, you know, as frequently as you feel comfortable with. I think going in once or even twice a week is more than enough to start generating a little bit of momentum and traction. And then finally, you know, there are people out there that you can start to follow. Like look at Darl Champion, Charlie Rickers, Mitch Chubb, there's Sarah Marlar, Laura Frederick, great contract stuff, Jennifer Jennings, Brittany Leonard. There are so many lawyers out there that are sharing this information so consistently, and they do engage. Follow those people, jump into their comments. It's a community that, for the most part, does come with open arms, and I think that's a way that you can get started. So that's good advice. I did pull up the Justin Welsh, his, the link to his LinkedIn course. It's, if anyone's interested, it's $99. It's learn.justinwelch.me/linkedin. So if anybody is interested in that. For my tip of the week, the thing that I, the reason, the main reason I don't like to get onto Facebook, I think it's an extremely effective tool for us as a firm. It's an effective tool when it comes to maximum lawyer, but I get on it to do something specific, forget the guild, let's say. And then I'm distracted by a bunch of posts. And I know that, I think Jim, you, you recommended an app a while ago, I think, but I'm gonna recommend an extension on, that goes on your browser, and it covers a few different social media networks, but it's news feed eradicator, and it replaces the feed with a quote. And so you don't see that quote. It replaces the feed in Facebook and other social media networks. So you're not seeing that and you're not distracted. 'Cause I don't know about you. If I go on there, I'll get, I'll see a post and I'll, I'll want to read it, and then I'll just get distracted, I'll kind of go down a rabbit hole. So for those of you that don't want to get sucked into social media, and you need to get on there for some specific purpose, like recording a video for your firm, whatever, it's a good way of preventing, getting sucked into that. - Ron, really appreciate coming on. It was fun talking to you about this, and hopefully we'll bring you on some other time to talk about some other stuff, but excellent. You definitely know what you're talking about when it comes to LinkedIn, so thanks for coming on and sharing what you know. - Thanks, a lot of fun, I appreciate it. And then maybe if I missed this zoom in and out, but thanks for not throwing me off there. - Oh geez, yeah, I-- - He forgot, he'll have to do that to the next guest. - Nice. - I actually didn't, I was just like in the middle of it. I was like, I don't know. There was not a real good time to do it. And I'm like, eh, I'm like, I just didn't wanna inject myself into it in the middle of it. Like someone saying something serious, so there was a couple of times I thought about it. I was like, eh, I'm not gonna do it. - You get super imposive on the replay when Jim's saying the guy bought the 10 lobsters with the bag of the cord. - I like that, I'll just kinda give him one of these. Like, you gotta listen to it, it's crazy. You gotta listen to it. - I wanna check it out. - Bye guys. - Thanks Ron. (upbeat music) - Thanks for listening to The Maximum Lawyer Badger. To stay in contact with your host and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com. Have a great week and catch you next time. (upbeat music) - Hey, before you go, stick with me for just a minute 'cause I have a discount that is exclusive to Maximum Lawyer podcast listeners only. And I wanna make sure you know about it. As you all know, it is absolutely crucial to stay on top of calls with clients, with court staff, with judges. 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