(intense music) Hey y'all, real quick. We got some really good news. The right side out series we did on the show about ADHD and positive self psychology and my relationship to my mom got selected to be a finalist in the Signal Awards. If you don't know the Signal Awards, they are kind of a thing in podcasting and our series got picked. Now, we are so honored with this, but it also means that you're up for a listener's choice award. I will warn you, however, somehow we're in a category with Oprah. So I don't know, I'm up against Oprah in the self-help advice category. And so, I don't know. But we would just love it if you all would take a second and vote for the series at creativepeptalk.com/vote. That will send you to where you need to go. And we would just super appreciate it. Thanks. Oh, and if you haven't listened to the series, it starts on episode 449 of this podcast and it's six episodes. (upbeat music) Take a deep breath in and then breathe out. Did you know that conscious breathing can significantly decrease stress and anxiety? And if you're wanting less of those in your life, then meditation is key. The Meditation for Women podcast provides free daily guided meditations covering just about every topic, so it's easy to press play and let yourself be guided to more calm and clarity. Listen and follow Meditation for Women on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) ♪ On the creative journey ♪ ♪ It's easy to get lost ♪ ♪ But don't worry, you're liftoff ♪ ♪ Sometimes you just need a creative pep song ♪ (upbeat music) Creativepeptalk is a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. Let's get into it. (upbeat music) Author and story expert Brian McDonald is back on the show. We had Brian and his collaborative partner, branding expert, Jesse Brian, on an earlier episode of this podcast, episode 326. They came to talk about their podcast. You are a storyteller and we just jammed and talked about storytelling. It's a great episode if you like this episode. I said go back to 326 and listen to that one. I wanted to have Brian back on on his own because he has a new edition of his book, his brilliant book, Invisible Inc. It has been re-released. This book is one of the biggest influences on me in terms of story. There's not a lot that has influenced me as much next to this. Maybe the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung stuff, but this is right up there. It is foundational for how I think about storytelling or the podcast, public speaking and kids books. Can't recommend it enough. If you're new to the idea of storytelling, this is a great book to start with. The forward of the book is written by Stuart Stern, the screenwriter of Rebel Without a Cause. Brian has done consulting work for the likes of Pixar and New Line Cinema and Sony Games, just to name a few. And this chat that we had is just chock full of so much great story stuff and some of my favorite ideas around story. A couple things to listen out for in this episode. Number one is I believe that the key to making great creative work isn't just having flashy, timely, fashionable styles and themes, but having deep, timeless substance that only storytelling can provide and speaking in a language that speaks to the deepest parts of us that only story can. This episode is full of tips on how to do just that. Stay until the end of this episode. At the end, Brian has his own creative call to adventure about how you can find the stories that you already have within you that are just waiting to be told. So stick around for that and I'll be back at the end just to wrap everything up. For now, let's get into this episode with Brian McDonald. I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out Squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. (loud beeping) Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that sinks in real time so you and your team can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. I really love the Miro mind maps and flow charts because when I'm working on a bit of writing, I like to free associate and kind of let my mind explore and wonder and the idea of being able to brainstorm with someone across the world in real time with Miro is just really cool. You can open up one of the boards and just start working right away. It's super intuitive and easy to use. So whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, UX, agile or IT, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster from idea to outcome. Go to Miro.com to find out how that's M-I-R-O.com. (soft music) - I love the way you think it's very, I mean, I wouldn't put myself in your shoes. I think you'd do something I don't do but I relate to it heavily and I'm really- - What do you think that I do? What do you think that I do? I don't know? - Yeah, I think what you do is it's something around seeing big picture. That's how I would think about it. - Okay, yeah. - And I'm very, very similar to that now. We both consider ourselves to be neurodivergent in some manner. I'm guessing something about that kind of brain chemistry. Maybe it's a heavily right brain thing. I don't really know the ins and outs of it but I think it's something around that. I think, I know this is an oversimplification but when I think of right brain versus left brain, which is also an oversimplification, I think a big picture, you know, head in the clouds and then left brain being detail oriented feet on the ground really in the details. And I think that you and I interact with story and in a similar fashion where I am thinking about it through the lens of the point, the heart, why it works too. Like what are the mechanisms they're using to make it have an effect on me? - Right. - So I'm thinking like that and I think you're really insightful in terms of, I think most people just don't have, it's almost like, you know, to get to your book Invisible Inc. It's, I think that part is invisible to most people. They're not seeing that element. And that's why, you know, most people that love when they say they love story, they say what they really mean is they're thinking about plot, they're thinking about the stuff that's happening, you know? - Right. They're also often, I think you're right about that. When I'm teaching people, I find that this is a very difficult way for them to think of a whole thing. And often when I don't like something, somebody will say, yeah, but then you like this part and this part and this part. And it's like, oh, I don't think of it that way. It's a whole thing. So I don't like a part of it. It's because if it doesn't fit into the rest of it, it doesn't really matter. - Yes. - I can't tell if it's working or not if it isn't supporting the main idea. - I feel exactly the same. - Yeah. - You know, I first of all just wanna say, I'm really excited that your book is getting a second edition. - Oh, thanks. - Thanks. - Where did that come from? And maybe you could just introduce people to the book that I've never heard of Invisible Inc. - So yeah, sure. So Invisible Inc, there are several reasons I wrote Invisible Inc, but this was one of them. Well, one of them was I got rejected by Disney for their fellowship program. And they sent me a list of books that I should read on screenwriting and I got really angry because I thought, have you read these books? Because I could write one of these books and I did. So that was one of them. - So that was one reason, but that was one reason. But the other reason was the first class I taught, I was not interested in teaching, was not a goal, not a thing, but it's kind of a family business, you know? And yeah, in a way, yeah, my brother was a teacher and my sister's kind of a teacher and my aunt's a teacher and my aunt would say, when are you gonna teach it? I would think, why would I do that? So I was pursuing directing and screenwriting. I was not thinking about being a teacher, but somebody needed a teacher to teach screenwriting and I needed a job, so I took the job and then it turns out I was good at teaching, which I didn't, that's not something I knew. And then, so one of my students, very first class, she said to me, you should write a book. And I was like, yeah, yeah, people tell me that, you know? And I was kind of bowling it off and she looked me dead in the eye and she said, no, you're good at this, you have a responsibility to write a book. - Yeah, exactly, you should listen when people say stuff like that. - Yeah, I know, and so, you know, so that was another reason I wrote the book. But what it is is, I've noticed that most people, when they talk about stories or doesn't have to be for movies, that's my training, but you can use it for anything and I've had playwrights, use it in other people. But it's that most people are thinking about details and they're thinking about the stuff on the surface. But there's a lot of stuff about writing stories that happens underneath and the stuff that's not very visible. The stuff that's visible is really just the skin, I call it the costume that the story wears, it's just the skin. And there's a whole bunch of underlying architecture that makes it work. You know, people think what happens is important and matters and it doesn't really matter what happens, it matters how that impacts the characters and the audience. So one example I like to use, I don't use it in the book, I don't think, but I've taught about it a ton of a lot. So I was overhearing some people that were discussing something that happened in some movie they had seen and they saw things, kept saying it would have been better if X had happened or if Y had happened and it kept thinking about the surface of it, it doesn't matter what happened, doesn't matter. So I say, let's take the gesture, an innocuous gesture of someone handing someone else an apple. That means nothing, unless it's Snow White. - Yeah. - Right? - Yes. - Oh wait, now it means everything, right? Or unless it's Eve, right? - Yes. - Right? Or unless it's, there was a story of woman who was in a concentration camp in World War II. And she said that, they separated the men from the women and there was this, she was very young at the time and there was this boy she had a crush on. And he was on the other side. She says, I would see him every now and then when they would take us outside and I could see him through a fence. And that was how they saw each other just through this fence. And she said, one day he passed an apple to me. And she goes, I don't know when the last time I had seen an apple. So that would have meant he would have had to sacrifice his own food, whatever he had to do to get that apple he gave her an apple. Now, the action hasn't changed. It's someone handing someone an apple. But what's underneath all of it? - Yeah. - And that's the stuff people miss. - The meaning and the characters and yeah, what is, what's the point? - Right. - I think what I ran into this quote that I've just obsessed over 'cause it's the way that I think about art and I think I mentioned it to you last time. It's the Percival Wild quote. I think it gets to the heart of what your book is about which is there's no art which does not conceal his still greater art. And this is kind of the greater art underneath story is kind of what you're getting at. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. So it's the difference. People talk about story structure a lot, but I think most people talk about it without understanding it. - Yeah. - And it works like this. So people think a story has a structure, right? And they talk about it like that. They talk about people messing with structure and all of that. Oh, it's out of order or it's backwards with it. They're messing with structure. - Yeah. - But here's the thing about structure. A story doesn't have a structure. - Yeah. - A story is a structure. The same way a building is a structure or a bridge is a structure. They are structures. So if you don't link the events together, they are not a story. - Yeah, yes. - Right? Once you start linking them together, they have structure. - Yeah. - And the, what determines that structure is the need of the thing. So right, so if you're building a building, well, are you building a two-story single family home? Or are you building a 76 floor skyscraper? Right? The structure is determined by what you are building. - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. - You can't just go, I'm gonna mess with this structure. - Right. - Right. - You know? - Well, yeah. - And I think, you know, maybe we'll get to this, I'd like to get to this later, this element of structure, because I've come to think of it as, there's kind of, you know, when people hear, you say something like, the action doesn't matter the way you think it does, I hear what you're saying as, it's further down the process of a domino effect. Like I think of, you have the point, that leads to the structure, like what's the equation that leads to that point? - Right. - Maybe you illustrate that through the action. So it's kind of, you know, the action's irrelevant if you don't have these other layers. - Right. - Yeah. - Right. - So I wanna get to that, but before we go there, maybe we could talk about, 'cause I wanna get to why the point matters, because, okay, one little aside before we get there, because what we have here is, there is a, I like to think about story the same way you do, because the kind of stories I like to write and my favorite stories to experience, are the ones that mirror joke telling. So I love a joke with a really well-crafted punchline, and in my mind, a great story, like a great joke should make you laugh, a great story should probably make you cry, or at least feel something, right? And so the kind of stuff I, my favorite stuff is that kind of stuff. So if it was comedy, it'd be like stand up, versus maybe comedy acting, which is much more abstract. And so I always like to note that, I do like books and movies that aren't really stories. Like I like their son, not all, but I like some. There are people, there are movies that are really abstract, poetic, really break the form, that I really enjoy. They're just not the kind of things that I would define as a story. Does that check out? 'Cause I wanna like lay that out because some people hear this and they think, oh, you're saying, abstract weird stuff sucks, and doesn't count, where I feel like, it's not necessarily my favorite thing, or what we're talking about. I still think it has validity. - Yeah. I hear that a lot too, so I'm just trying to figure out. So the story is a very specific thing. - Yeah. - And what's happening now is people are trying to put a lot of things in that bucket. This is also a story, this is also a story. To the point where it has no definition. - Yeah, right. - And that's a problem. - Yes. - Because if I go into a corporate setting, and I'm trying to help them, a company find their story, or I'm working at an animation company, and they're trying to, whatever, if everybody in the room has a different definition for story, we are not communicating from the very beginning. And so what that means is, people think, well, I'll put this abstract thing in, and I go, well, that doesn't fit what we're trying to do. Well, what do you mean? So then they think it's all about an opinion, but we're like, no, we're building a bridge across a chasm. These are the things we're going to need to build a bridge across a chasm. And they're like, well, can we do this with the bridge? No, it doesn't do this thing. It's not necessarily a good or bad idea. It's just that it's not good for this. And so that's the problem. But there's nothing wrong with being, it's not my favorite stuff. - No, it's not. - It's either? - It tends not to be. - Right, but I will say this. There is probably even in stuff that's abstract, a point. - Yeah. - Right? So what's weird about that is like, you take something like Mark Rothko, right? Who decided, hey, you know what? I will remove form, right? So we're just looking at color and things like that. I'm going to take form away. Right? - Yeah, yeah. - But I'm not going to be representational in a way. But there's a point there. There's a thing happening there, right? And so if all of a sudden Mark Rothko decided, I'm going to do a still life in the middle of this thing. It doesn't fit what he's trying to do, right? So even the stuff that's abstract has its own internal rules and logic. - And even if you, you know, by the nature of what you edit or include, you, even if your point is something nihilistic, it's to a point. Even if it's a thing that there is no point, there is no meaning. - That's still a point. - That's your point. - Right. (all laughing) You know? And anything that goes against that doesn't fit in your, so it's just, you know, so having a point. And here's the other thing about having a point that I find really fascinating. You know, I like to take, I like to think about stories as a natural, very natural thing, right? That, I mean, I talk about it all the time now, but I think human beings were designed to be storytellers. And I don't mean it in any, this is not artistic, this part of it. - Yeah, yeah. - This part of it. Now what you do with it could be better or worse than somebody else or whatever can be artistic. But the thing itself is that its core is not art. It isn't art, right? It is a way for us to pass on interesting or not interesting imperative information to one another, right? That's what it is. It is an efficient way, right? Of, like Jesse Graham likes to say, of getting something out of my head in at your head, right? - Yeah, yeah. - Right? And it's a way to pass on information both horizontally from B to U or vertically down the generations, right? - Yeah. - And it's, so we know stuff that people said 10,000 years ago, right? You know, you know, because of stories, right? We know what people are thinking about, you know? And so that's a really important thing because that informs us now. It has a structure that just comes with the software we're born with, right? And there's a structure there. All of that to say that when we're talking and we don't think we're telling stories and we're just talking to each other, we will have a point. - Yeah. - We will. So it's way abstract the idea of not having a point. It actually goes against everything that we do every day. So if you're, you know, so even, and it works like this, I don't know every word I'm going to say before I say it to you. But I know the idea that I want to get across to you when I'm talking to you right now. Right? - Yes. - Correct. And the only words I use are the words that help me do that. - Yeah. - I don't throw in extraneous words, aluminum, in the middle of the thing I'm trying to say. - 'Cause it distracts and it kind of breaks it down. - Right. Yeah, but I like the word aluminum. Right? Who cares? It doesn't, right? Everybody does it all the time every day. They streamline there and the people who don't are very difficult to listen to. Everybody knows that. - Yeah, definitely. And I, you know, I think kind of two things come to mind for me with that. One is I like the notion of getting something from my head to your head, but I also think that the way I like to think about it is the story as a way of usually getting something that's already in your head, into your heart. Because a lot of these things are things that you maybe know are true on a, you know, a lot of the stories that are hitting philosophical truths, they ring true and they're almost like reminders of, oh yeah, family matters or, oh yeah, that, you know, you can, you can be more than you are born into or, you know what? These different things that are easy to have in your head, but putting them in a story as a way of living through them and then feeling them so that they're, you know, you can embody them. - Well, if you go back to the, and this is another discussion that often occurs, this idea of philosophy over feeling things, right? - Right, yeah. - And so here's what's interesting, especially in the dramatic form. And by dramatic form, I mean, anything performed or, right? So going back to the Greeks, who invented drama as we know it. I mean, they may have gotten it from somebody else, but nobody says that, so, okay. But often you find out, no, they went to Africa and they get, you know, I don't know, but they're the ones credited with, right? - Another classic story that we have. - Right, yeah. - Too many times. - Yeah, but as, you know, as it comes down to us, it starts with the Greeks. And I have no reason to doubt that actually, but it starts with the Greeks. So, okay, so here's what's interesting. So people are telling stories, right? And I can't remember the name of the guy, but somebody, one of the playwrights, decided, hey, what if I have the actors just talk to each other, you know? Like that was an invention, right? But the word drama means to do. It means action or to do stuff. So when you are dramatizing something, you are demonstrating something. - Yeah. - So instead of saying some things are more important than money, you are demonstrating that through the story. - Yeah, yes. - Now, here's what's interesting. If you think about the logo, the ancient Greek logo for drama, it was the masks of comedy and tragedy, both drama, by the way, 'cause they're not using drama the way we use it now, right? Both, they were comedies and tragedies. That's how they separated those things, but we use drama to mean comedy. It doesn't, we're misusing it. But anyway, so there are motion, they're masking are emotional. They're frowning, crying, and laughing. There's nothing about thinking there. - Yeah. - The Greeks are famous for their philosophy, right? It wasn't like they didn't have it, right? So they could've had another mask of somebody thinking, that's not there. Why isn't that there? It's not there because they very specifically thought that there was something that was good for your health about weeping with the people in the story. They, it was an emotional, it's designed to be an emotional form. - Yeah. Yes. - It's a form in which, here's something we know, or here's something that the author, the creator, the artist feels this is true, and here's the way that I'm going to illustrate it through action so that you can feel it, so that you can test it. And I think we have, I think I've heard you talk about this before, like we have that resonance that we're shooting for that breaks down when the pieces don't work. That comes from when, I think you see this a lot in like propaganda, where the thing there, the truth, the so-called truth they're trying to illustrate won't play out in the story because the story is the grounds in which we test that information. When you're experiencing it, if it doesn't add up, you're not going to come, you're not going to be left with the feelings that were intended. - Right. - Right? - Yeah. - Right, and the other thing is that feeling is another way to understand the thing, right? That's also a way to understand, so why is the Diary of Anne Frank an important book, right? Because of the feeling. - Yeah, we could have all the facts all day, we had all the facts. - Right, right. - Without the doing and the drama and the story and the characters in the setting, it doesn't illuminate on a feeling level. - Right, it's not human, statistics aren't human. - Yes, exactly. When it gets to that point of, I love when you talk about the idea of how this links to survival information. Could you talk a little bit about that? - Yeah, what I think stories are for is I generally believe that the stories exist for human beings to pass on survival information or survival strategies onto each other. And there's lots of evidence that I think proves this. - Yeah. - First of all, every writing teacher in the world will tell you that in order for your story to be compelling or interesting, that it needs to have conflict, right? Now, as a dyslexic, that's not enough information for me. So I remember asking, well, why is that more interesting? Well, just because it is. Well, that's not an answer, that's not an answer. That means you don't know, that's what that means, right? I don't know, people find it more interesting. Well, why? Why would we be wired to find it more interesting? Because conflict is the thing that we are trying to survive. That's why it's interesting. - And it gets, 'cause I do the exact same thing. And when I was talking about earlier of how you, I relate to your big picture kind of approach or like seeing theory, I think it comes from a place of needing to feel it. And so when you say, when a teacher says, "It has to have conflict," I have that same response of, okay, why? And it's because I'm not feeling it. I'm not feeling, I don't know what that will, conflict's not doing it, like, why do we need conflict? I don't even like conflict, why would we need that? Then you start pulling it out and you get to, oh, this is because the stakes and people's lives. And if you don't, if this happens, these people suffer and all of a sudden now, I'm feeling it. And I'm like, oh, I get why we need the conflict. - Yeah, it's an important component. One of the things that most people do when they're writing is try to avoid conflict because that's what they do in their lives. So it's really interesting. So they'll be like, I don't wanna do this to my character or that seems cruel or whatever. It's like, no, this is the place for that. You're not being cruel to your character, they're not real. It's fine, everybody's gonna be okay. So, but yeah, it is funny. It's one of the biggest things, it's avoiding that stuff. People avoid emotions often in stories. It becomes a vulnerable position and people don't wanna take that vulnerable position. Like, oh, if I reveal, because you often have to reveal something emotionally about yourself in order to get that into the story, that a lot of people wanna avoid that. And so that makes their stories not work as well. (upbeat music) - When you need meal time inspiration, it's worth shopping king supers for thousands of appetizing ingredients that inspire countless mouth-watering meals. And no matter what tasty choice you make, you'll enjoy our everyday low prices. Plus, extra ways to save. Like digital coupons worth over $600 each week and up to $1 off per gallon at the pump with points. So you can get big flavors and big savings, king supers, fresh for everyone, fuel restrictions apply. - Earlier you were talking about, I wanna see if I understood something right. You're talking about the element of this that isn't art. Here's how I kind of was thinking about that. Could you explain the idea of armature real quick before I go into that? - Sure, so armature is the word I used to describe. So here's the thing, when I was 21 years old, I worked in creature shots. I did that for a couple of years. This was in the 1980s and I worked in creature shots and that was before CGI or anything. And so everything had to be built. - Is this similar to kind of like what Henson things are? - Kind of, yeah, kind of. I did work with a guy who did work with them or he was offered a job with them, but he didn't take it, but it's similar. So yeah, makeup special effects kind of stuff, but you would might build a creature. So "Night of the Creeps" was the first movie I worked on. Some people know that. Some people, most people don't. I've never watched it. (both laughing) - That's hilarious. - "Night of the Creeps", "Return of the Living Dead" part two, which I have also never watched, but I did some zombies stuff on that and helped out on that. Anyway, but I was kind of the low person. I was new and I was kind of, so I would watch these people, these amazing sculptors. Some of them went on to work on Jurassic Park later and stuff like that. Amazing people. And they would do these little maquettes, these little mini sculptures of whatever the creature was, whatever the monster or whatever, so that producers could look at it. I remember when I got there, they were working on Predator when I first moved there. And so there were all these sculptures of Predator or what he could look like and beautiful sculptures. And I noticed they would make these sort of wire skeletons before they sculpted these things in clay. And I asked why and they said, "Oh, because clay can't support its own weight." So we make an armature, this skeleton, this is called armature wire, actually. We make this armature and it holds everything up. And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And then after a while I started thinking about stories in terms of having an armature, have a thing at the center that everything is built around, that is invisible once you're done. Nobody sees it. It's one of the most important parts of the sculpture. The whole thing falls apart without it, but it's not a thing people notice. And so the armature is the point you're trying to make, right? It doesn't have to be obvious. It doesn't have to be there on the surface for everybody to see, but it has to be there in every decision that you make about the characters that inhabit that story, the places where they are, the creatures if they're there, whatever is there, it all has to go back to this central idea to the armature. It has to be built around the armature, it doesn't work. - Yeah. - So the other word for armature would be theme, right? But I don't like to use the word theme because just like the word story, people have different ideas for that. So I like to describe it first as armature and explain it. And then we can use the words interchangeably because we know what we're talking about. But what I find is that when people hear this, sometimes they misunderstand it. So they'll say, well, the theme of my piece or the armature is revenge or greed or they'll have a word. It's like, okay, that's not something you can demonstrate through. I mean, you can show greed, but you're not saying anything about greed, right? So, or revenge, right? So a thing can't be revenge. An armature is not revenge. An armature is revenge harms the avenger. Revenge is sweet. That's something you, those are things you can demonstrate through the story, dramatize, demonstrate, right? Right. Some things are more important than gold or more valuable than gold. That's something you can demonstrate through the characters and the actions and the settings and everything else. So it has to be a sentence that you can prove or disprove. Yeah, and I think of it, you know, I've thought, I think I read your, I think the original version of Invisible Inc, probably maybe five years ago, something like that. So I've kind of been working on that and kind of adding my own thoughts in terms of how I want to approach stuff. And I kind of tend to think of that armature, the point that you're trying to make, the, I've heard you talk about story math. I think about it like act one, act two, act three, it has to, the act three has to add up to the point. Like that's the point. So it's an equation. The story adds up to, this is the thing that becomes evident from the process. Maybe you could give one of the ones, I've heard you do it for a bunch of different examples, but one of my favorites is your take on the armature of Jurassic Park. Does that freshen your mind? Yeah, let me think about it for a second. Yeah. What did I say? It's something about leaving the past in the past and kind of something about how like it's what happens when you try to resurrect the past. Oh, there's a whole thing that's in the land of the dead. Yeah, that's a whole different, that's all, that's a whole different thing. Okay, we're talking about land of the dead, but that's the last book, we can talk about it, but it will take us down a path. I think we better, I think we better do that on a different discussion, but that's why, I heard you, I think you were talking about Jurassic Park as an example. I might've been, yeah. What happens when you try to resurrect the dead? Yeah, it was probably in the context of the land of the dead, which I highly recommend people checking out. I think there's, I think it's a great framework for thinking about all this stuff. But this is like, what is my personal favorite book of mine? Oh, yeah, it's amazing. And I think it's a really interesting concept in terms of how to think about, the way I think about that book is, it reminds me of the hero's journey, in that it's like, you're going into a world that you can't stay, there has to be a return home, wouldn't you could explain what that is? But briefly, 'cause otherwise we're going to completely derail this. That's a whole, that's a whole different thing. Essentially, I hadn't noticed a pattern of characters journeying into the underworld in stories. Yeah. And it happened a lot. So I was like, why does this happen so much? So I, you know, I did a deep dive into why it happens. And actually it's funny, because a lot of people compare the book to Joseph Campbell, which is funny. It's great, it's fine. But there's actually a guy that predates him named Otto Rank that wrote a book called The Myth of the Birth of the Hero. And that's actually more for me that says like, oh, yeah, okay, people who know Joseph Campbell. So that's what they think, like there were people doing it before Joseph Campbell and Otto Rank is one of those people. And he talks about every hero, like he goes through every hero, mythological hero, religious heroes. And he talks about how their births are very similar in all the stories. It's really interesting. So it's, so I was, yeah, so I was looking at, I was looking at, yeah, why characters go into the underworld all the time? And what I noticed is they usually go there and they gain some kind of wisdom there and they come back. And that is more universal than we know. And the things that you find in the land of the dead and any of those stories are things you can find in life. And when you're in those situations, you are in the land of the dead, you know. - In those situations, you mean like, when it's life or death, right? - No, not necessarily life or death. - Okay, yeah. - What are the examples of that? - An example might be, an example might be going through a horrible time in your life where nothing's working out, right? Because one of the things you find in the land of the dead are suffering souls, right? - Yeah. - So if you're around a hospital could be land of the dead, a nursing home could be a land of the dead. prisons are a land of the dead. Shashank retention takes place in the land of the dead, right? Right? So any place they're suffering of any kind, the threat of death, sure, that's there. But there's always wisdom to be gained there. If you stay there, you are also dear dead. So you have to gain the wisdom and then leave, right? And so in fact, what I found and I didn't know this before, there's a word for this during the land of the dead, which is called the catapuses. I didn't know there was a word for it, but it happens enough that there was a word for it, right? So there's an actual word, the catapuses. And so we all kind of go through a catapuses at maybe several points in our life. And you're supposed to learn the lesson of it, otherwise you get stuck in that state, right? So anyway, that's kind of what the land of the dead is about and I talk about it in mythology and I talk about it in modern movies and I talk about it in life. That's what that book is. - Yeah, I love that. If you get stuck in that place, like life cannot continue figuratively, literally, metaphorically, I love that. Back to a threat I was gonna close was when you were talking about, here's how I heard what you said, 'cause I was right there with you in terms of the part of the story, the part of making stories that isn't art. I often think about art, I call it the cup and the coffee. So the coffee is like the substance. It's the espresso, it's what people are there for, but the cup you put it in needs to match the flavor. Or if you think about it like wine in a wine glass, right? Like now there are, there's really interesting things you can do. Like there are lots of us have been in those scenarios where we're drinking wine out of a red solo cup. That's a different, you're doing that for a different reason and that can either be really sad or it can be really fun. Like, but there's a lot of pieces of how that comes together. So I think about the packaging and the essence of something. And so I was thinking about this in terms of story for me, as you said that, I started thinking like, yeah, I think when I approach a story, I'm thinking of it. There's kind of two pieces, there's three pieces to it when you're thinking about the armature, which is the skeleton, the meat. And then I think of like the skin. And so the, maybe for me, the art is the idea, the truth that like it's almost like a vision, like a thing where like, I want to communicate this, that the catching of that is an art. It feels like to me. And then I think the styling, so like the skin also feels like an art. Now, I think it should serve the point, but I think it still is an art. And then the in-between, like the meat of that, that feels more like mechanics. That's more like this leads to that leads to that. Is that kind of? - I talk about it in the book, but in the new version, but I think of it as bones muscle skin. - Yes. - Right? And so the bones, and what's interesting about this for me is when I started thinking about it this way, it helps with collaboration, to think of it this way. Because here's the thing with collaboration. When you're working on a project with someone, and they say, maybe, so for instance, you're working out the bones, and you say, "Okay, the guy's got to find out that his business partner is in bezel." Right? Okay, that's all you need right now. But there's often someone who's getting into muscle, and they'll say, "Well, how do I find that out?" Now you slow down the bone process. - Yes. - Right? Now we got to stop and figure that out, but we're still building bones. Let's just build bones. You find it out. We'll figure that out later. We just need that, right? Those are bones, right? In this case, I would think of the armature. It changes slightly when you're thinking about bones and skin, and the armature is really the soul at that point. - Oh, yeah. - Right? - I hadn't thought of that. - Right? It's the heart. - Yes. - Right? - Yeah. - It's the spirit, the consciousness, the core. - Right? - Yes. - That's great. - And then so then the bones are, you know, if this has to happen, this has to happen, these kinds of things. The muscle is all the things, all that working out, like, how does he find out in blah, blah, blah? And then what does he do exactly? And how does that guy get a hold of a gun, even though, whatever it is, right? You know, you've got to figure all that stuff out. And that's muscle. And skin is maybe we could shoot it in black and white because blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, maybe this should have a more cartoony style because of that's why it still needs to serve your point. But making that choice about the skin, or maybe this is a Western, and maybe this is a samurai thing. 'Cause none of that other stuff changes, right? - Yes. - Right? - And you can also do interesting things too, where one of my favorite ways this plays out in a way that is surprising is when you can, and this is where there's an art to it to me, where you can then do what I call a mismatch for a purpose. So I think about things like the cure being, when you first hear the cure, the band, it sounds upbeat and like dance music. But then when you notice the disconnect between how depressing what they're talking about is, it makes you lean in and it gives you, it hooks you, right? And so there are interesting things too of, and this, it kind of reminds me of Charlemons thing, where he talks about how he worked out that he could put different skin on it, but it had to be less interesting than the soul that you're saying. Like the twist had to be an elevation of the plot. Like you notice like, have you talked about this before? I can't remember if I've heard you kind of. - I have written about Charlemons before that. - Yeah, I heard him say this, I thought. He was like, he was making these movies and he felt like he'd gotten to a rut because he didn't realize that if he sold it as an action movie and then it ended up being a drama, that felt like the stakes lowered. And so he realized he had to flip it the other way where the soul had to kind of outdo the skin. And that's kind of, you know, it's abstract, but I think that's where the artistry comes in. Like that's where you get creative about how are we going to, like what is the best way to bring this soul to life for people, you know? Yeah. - It's funny, I think very little about the skin. - Yeah, actually, because a guy I know is learning how to sculpt. - Yeah. - And I told him, okay, you got to start, you got to, you know, the bones, muscles, skin thing. And as he did his research and learned more, he found out that's what you have to do. And here's what's interesting. If you're sculpting in clay, if you sculpt the muscles and you lay the skin on, it will do all the things it's supposed to do and the muscles make it work. So it's like, even though people see the surface and they think it's all happening on the surface, it's the muscles that make it do what it's doing. And so I always think that the skin kind of takes care of itself. - Yeah. - Well, yeah, and I'm just, you know, that's, I love, we're adding all these layers 'cause now we got the soul all the way up to the skin. And then as you're saying that, then I'm thinking about, I want to go back to you thinking primarily about the soul of it 'cause I think there's some other, in collaboration, 'cause I think there's something else interesting there too. But then the next piece that comes to mind is the clothes and how you dress it. And then I feel like we're getting into this territory of the timeless soul of a thing versus the timely, like attention grabbing. Like I'm really fast and like, I'm like you too, in that what, where I get interested in is the soul. That's where my, that's what I'm all about. But I'm interested in the fact that what people, what grabs people's attention is often the clothes. It's our, it's an interesting dynamic. - Yes, having said that. - Yeah, first of all, okay, since Caesar was a comedian. Since Caesar was a comedian who had a TV show in the 50s. That is really the grandfather of Saturday Night Live. - Okay, yeah. - And since Caesar was very, it was a major show. The writers on that show are legendary. They ended up being some of the best. Mel Brooks was on that writing staff. But everybody who was on that writing staff is at that level of, as long as they were alive, they were relevant. Mel Brooks is still relevant right now, right? He's like almost 100 years old. Like this was a major show. And since Caesar said something really interesting in an interview, he said, you know, you can walk on stage and have a funny costume. And you'll get a lot of laughs. And he said, but after that, you better have something funny to say 'cause that costume ain't getting no more laughs, right? - Yeah, yeah, right, right. - And into the point of Shyamalan, I get better be what you have to say, better be funnier than the costume. - Right. - Like you better ramp it up from there or if you can't outperform it, you're in trouble. - Right, so that's the thing, right? So that's the problem with the skin and concentrating on the skin. It's like, yeah, that'll work for a little while, but it won't really sustain you. And what's interesting is if you take all that away, if you take a classic, like it's a wonderful life or a Wizard of Oz. - Yeah. - Style has moved on from those things. It has not diminished anyone's enjoyment of those things. - Yes. - Right, so you take the Wizard of Oz, acting styles have changed, right? The way people shoot things has changed, right? You needed a lot of light back then, right? So everything is bright and overlit, right? It was a bigger deal to shoot outside so all the exteriors are interiors, right? And that gives things a kind of false quality. There's all these things, right? The special effects which were groundbreaking at the time and some of them are still amazing, but compared to what we can do now, right? But it doesn't stop anybody from believing anything that happens in that story. - Definitely, right? - And I completely agree with you. - Yeah. - Go ahead, sorry. - I'm just gonna say that, so what happens is the skin ends up being superficial. - And I completely agree. I'll say two things that I'm just adding here because I'm primarily talking to, I know a lot of times you're probably talking to creative people, but sometimes I imagine, you know, talking to a business or you're talking to people that manage creative people or, you know, executives or whatever. Like, I think the message they need to hear for sure is the soul is what matters. Like, this is what matters. And I think to me, I'm just thinking about primarily creative people who may be already subscribed to the idea that the essence, the espresso, that's what matters. And I'm just saying, 100%. But remember that the clothes is often what sells it to the regular public and to executives. And it doesn't really matter. But, or at least the degree at which it matters is that it doesn't, that it's additive to the soul. Not subtractive, you know? 'Cause I think about Pixar and I'm like, I do think all the so many, I mean, I know that Pixar is celebrated for story, but I think what a lot of people, what brought them to the forefront was, oh, it's this technology, we've never seen it, and a lot of the wrong lessons get learned from that. And that happened over and over and over. - That's true. - So I'm totally right there with you, but I'm kind of talking to creative people of like, yeah, I agree, like, it's not really what matters, but just realize that it's the same thing as like a book cover. It's like, it's not really the key, but it does make a difference on whether people, how people think about it. - Right, well it has a job to do. - It has a job. - I love that, yeah. - Right? - Yeah. - And so that might, actually one of my editors at First Second, I did Land of the Dead, basically said that about covers. He didn't push back on any of the art things he goes, but the cover does have a job to do, right? And I will push back on the cover, 'cause that has to sell the book, right? - Yeah. - And I like the cover of the book, but it doesn't. - Yeah. - But here's what I've noticed over and over again. And this is the stuff I am most proud of when I get out of the way. So when I get out of the way, what's interesting is, I'll give you an example. - Yeah. - One of my favorite things in any story is in Peter Pan. And it's the crocodile. - Yeah. - And the crocodile, right? - Yes. - Here's why. The crocodile has swallowed a clock, right? And so Captain Hook can hear, he's scared of the crocodile, he hear it coming. Okay, here's what's interesting about that. Barry, who wrote Peter Pan, had a brother who died when he was a kid. And they refer to him as the boy who didn't grow up. Never, never land is a land of the dead. You can't stay there, right? - Yeah. - The boys who stay there are lost. - Yeah. - You can't stay in childhood forever, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, it's fun while you're there, but you can't live there, right? So there's that. - Yes. - Okay, so that's what that piece is all about, right? Now, growing up also includes gold growing old and it includes food's diet. Captain Hook is also running from death, right? - Yeah. - The crocodile is deaf and it is pursuing him and it even has a piece of him already, right? Which is why he has a hook, right? So death takes us a little bit at a time, right? So this ticking clock with teeth is chasing Hook, right? Now that looks like creativity, but it is only going to your armature to figure out what to create. - Yes. - You can be way more creative if you listen to your armature than you ever could be trying to come up with a crocodile with a clock and it's stomach, it's chasing a guy. You can't come up with that idea unless you are adhering to your armature and that also happens on a skin level. What does it say it should look like? 'Cause it will be innovative, it will be interesting, it will do all those things, but if you listen to it, once you have your armature, you become a servant of that armature and every decision you make is based on an armature and you will be more creative than you could otherwise be. - Yeah, I freaking love that. I love that example. It's so powerful and it speaks to, I think, again, the getting out of the way thing. To me, it's almost like I've given a lot of thought to how the meat and the skin, it emanates from the soul in a way that's similar to dreams and that you have this pre-lingual self, like the unconscious self, the older part of us that before we learned to talk in terms of humanity that communicates in pictures. And so it communicates in symbols. And so once you have that piece of this is the thing I wanna communicate, that's where you build on the creativity comes from or it speaks for you in that it starts to give you leads on the kind of symbols that will personify the point. - Right, right. - Yes, yeah, and that example is just so powerful. And I also think, we always end with an action that people can take with these ideas, things they can put to their practice. We call it the Call to Adventure CTA. And so I wanna get to that. But I think the way I wanna frame it is, as an illustrator early on, when you think about illustration, most illustrators I know, myself included, you start and you fall in love because of people's style, and you wanna find your style, right? And the thing that I have tried to, I did a class all about finding your style. And the truth is it's really about finding your substance because it emanates from there, you know? And so I wondered if, so for artist, illustrators, authors, whatever, finding that substance, that soul to build a story around or to take cues from from your style, that really is the heart of the thing. I wondered if you had any, with your teaching and workshops, if you had any hacks for, how do I notice these things? These souls that I can build stuff from. - When it comes down to, that's a question people have a lot. They're like, how do I find an armature? And usually they look outside for an armature. - Which is a mistake, I think. - Yeah, it is a huge mistake. You have to look inside for the armature. And there is something that they know. There is something that you believe, and there is something you have learned from some hardship. There just is, you don't get through life without it. You can be in the, it doesn't matter how old you are. None of that stuff matters. There's something you have survived, or you wouldn't be here, right? So there's something you survived, and there's something that you know to be true from your experience. So you just have to look at yourself. What are the things that hold you back? What are the things that have moved you ahead? All those things, and you know those things. You know, you might not wanna think about them, but in order to be a good storyteller, that is what you have to think about. You know, you have to be willing to be vulnerable, and that means even to yourself, and to look at the parts of yourself that you don't necessarily wanna look at. Vulnerability scares people because they think people will attack them for their vulnerabilities. The way I was explaining it to somebody, as I said, they said, well, you know, how do I trust people with that? And, you know, that's, and I said, well, if you look at a dog, when a dog rolls over and wants you to rub their belly, in the natural world of wolves, that is a submissive action. Because all the things that you could kill you are vulnerable. So if another wolf wants to take advantage, they can. You're saying, I trust you, I submit. You win. But if you think about it in a dog, it's a very likable position. Oh, they want to, right, right, right, right. - Yeah. - Right? And it's exactly what happens when you are vulnerable. - It invites connection. - Right. - Yes. It says, I'm trusting you with this. - And that, that's exactly what brings people in. That's the kind of stuff that people lean into. When they give sense that this is a vulnerable thing. - Right. - I think it's, I think it's definitely true. And I love that as a prompt to think about what are the vulnerable areas that you could reveal. - Right. - As an act of trust with your audience. - Yes. - Yeah, and what's interesting is everybody's afraid that people will look at your work and see you. But that's not what happens. They look at their work, your work, when you are vulnerable and they say to themselves, how did they know that about me? That's what happens. - That's, that's amazing. That's amazing. Well, I can, I could talk to you for hours and hours. I've got plenty more. I've got more theories and stuff that I want to throw at you eventually. And I might make a, my own kind of class or book or something sometime, but I owe a ton to you because I feel like this piece, the pieces that you outline in the book are just foundational. And I think any, anybody creating anything needs that kind of substance to build from. And so I really hope people check out the new version of the book, where, where can they find it? - Wherever, whenever find books are sold. So yeah, you should be able to find it anywhere. And if it's not a bookstore that you like to go to, they can order it. So, you know, some people are anti Amazon, but you can get it there, you know, or not, you know what I mean? You know, but yeah, you can find it anywhere. - And where do you, where can people find you? Where do you want to send them? - Oh, they could go to my website, right invisible link. They can follow me on Instagram. I'm B, Mickey D. So it's B, E, E, M, A, C, D, E, E, so on Instagram. And yeah, those are the places where you can find me. - Awesome, thanks, man. - Oh, thanks for having me. It was really fun. (gentle music) - All right, check out the book Invisible Inc. The new edition of the book Invisible Inc. Wherever you get your books, maybe an indie bookstore, if you can. You know, we love to support indie bookstores. Go check it out, Invisible Inc. by Brian McDonald. A, just a fantastic book about story that has just given me so much over the years and really inspired a lot of this podcast. I love Brian's work. I love the way he thinks. He's got a few books out on story. And yeah, go check him out and follow along so that you can stay tuned into all of the great insight that he has. Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show and I hope you get to come back again someday. Each episode of Creative Pep Talk is designed to help you maintain a consistent creative practice. If you're trying to transform your creativity from an infrequent hobby to a regular discipline, sign up to our newsletter at AndyJPizza.substack.com so that you never miss an episode. Creative Pep Talk is part of the Pod Glamorit Network. To learn more, go to www.podglamorit.com. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the Van Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay peped up. Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year, I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately. And if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you want to test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself. And when you're ready to launch, use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. [upbeat music] It's an election year. So you've likely been thinking, why does it feel like American democracy is unraveling? It's the fault of our electoral system and its winner take all ideology. But what if it didn't have to be that way? I'm Colin Cole, one of the hosts of the future of our former democracy where we address the question, is this centuries old electoral system really the best we have in 2024? We look to Northern Ireland and explore how they reformed their political system to overcome deep divides and ensure more equitable representation. Each episode takes a closer look at why the US could learn from Ireland's journey and what it could look like if the United States dismantled its polarizing system and replaced it with a more proportional one. Each episode examines why Northern Ireland's history can act as a blueprint for how we can overcome political divisions and achieve fairer representation. We'll take you on a sound rich journey filled with historical insights, personal narratives and expert interviews to challenge the idea of democracy and explore bold solutions for a more equitable future. So follow the future of our former democracy wherever you get your podcasts.
Why do we tell stories?
What is my story?
How and where do I even start?
This episode is a conversation with award-winning screenwriter, director and author Brian McDonald about the why, what and how of telling stories. We dive deep into the process of finding substance, building structure and connecting with others.
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Show Notes
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Brian McDonald
https://writeinvisibleink.com/
https://www.instagram.com/writeinvisibleink/
Books
https://writeinvisibleink.com/#books
Invisible Ink
Land of the Dead
Previous episode with Brian:
http://creativepeptalk.com/326
SPONSORS:
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