The Guild is maximum lawyers' community of legal entrepreneurs who are taking their businesses and lives to the next level. As a Guild member, you'll build relationships, be held accountable, and learn strategies specifically designed to get you unstuck and accelerate your plan for growth. Members are also granted exclusive access to masterminds hosted around the country. Our next event is coming up, and we're heading to Scottsdale, Arizona. There's something truly magical about the power of these in-person connections, where real-time breakthroughs happen. Picture this, you're surrounded by like-minded law firm owners tackling your business and mindset challenges together. The energy is electric, the insights are transformative, and the results are game-changing. Investing in yourself is the best decision you'll ever make. The knowledge, strategies, and breakthroughs you'll gain are priceless assets that will supercharge your practice and propel you forward. Join the Guild and secure your ticket to Scottsdale at the best possible price by visiting max slot events.com. Run your law firm the right way. This is the Maximum Liar Podcast. Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Matrix, let's partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show. Welcome to this episode of Maximum Liar. I'm Tyson Matrix, and today we're diving into something a lot of you probably thought about at some point in your career, and that's making a transition from one practice area to another. You're really going to enjoy listening to this conversation that I had with Tainer Demery. He's a South Florida attorney that currently practices in criminal defense, and he's considering making a shift to personal injury. If you've ever considered pivoting your practice from one area to the next, or if you just are interested in an interesting conversation, you're really going to want to stick around. Tainer had reached out to me via text because he wanted to know how I did it because that's something that I had done in the past, and that's why he reached out to me, just to give you a little bit of context around the conversation. Tainer, he's been doing criminal defense for about 20 years, and he's built a pretty solid practice, but like many of us that have gone through it, especially when it comes to criminal defense, I'm sure many of you, when it comes to family law, you start wondering a little bit, is this really where I want to be? In this episode, what we're going to do is we're going to break down what it's like to step away from that world that's a flat fee is getting paid up front to a practice area that's quite a bit different. You don't have all the court appearances. You have a lot less court appearances. You do have court, but you're not getting paid up front, and you're fronting a bunch of expenses. It's a really interesting conversation where we talk about the differences in the two. We start by discussing Tainer's reasons for wanting to make the change, which I think is really, really important. Trust me, they're probably going to resonate with you whenever you hear what he has to say. He's looking for more than just creating that job for himself. Many people have done, they've started their own firm, but it's essentially just a job. It's nothing more than that. If you want a job, then you can probably go work for someone else with a lot less risk, but that's not why many of us are doing this. We're doing this for a lot of other things. He wants to build a business that is a practice that's not only profitable, but also it gives him that quality of life that he's really been wanting, that he's really been aiming for. I'm sure that probably sounds familiar to a lot of you. You're going to hear us dive into the logistics of making this move, from ramping up the PI practice, to managing cash flow, and avoiding the pitfalls of juggling too many cases while you make the transition, especially when it comes to litigation heavy practice like criminal defense, to a PI practice that could be litigation heavy, but they're handled in very, very different ways. We also talk about setting up a timeline. Is this something where you go cold turkey and you shut down your firm completely, or is this something that you ramp up over time, maybe over a couple of years? You'll hear how we talk about that, how we assess that, and that way it might help you make some of your decisions. We also talk about if you're going to get into PI, how do you stay competitive with those big PI firms, because that's a big problem. You've got to make sure that you are fishing in the right pond, because if you're not, you switch to PI, then you might face some issues. Finally, I share some practical insights near the end. It's very PI heavy near the end of things, and so just giving you a fair warning on that, but I talk about case selection. I talk about red flags to look at for. I don't go with all the red flags, I do go through some of the red flags. I talk about how to value a case, and I talk about the importance of solidifying your processes all while keeping in mind the human side of personal injury, and that is a really important part of this conversation, in my opinion. It's a small part, but it's a really, really important part of it. If you're thinking about changing the way you practice or just want to hear how a criminal defense attorney is looking to pivot, you're in for a treat, I believe, so let's get into it. Enjoy the show. All right, so I want to start with your objective with doing this because I think the moment you sent that text message to me about switching over, I was really fascinated about this, and I've been through it, and I think it's really, really interesting, but what is your objective? What's the end goal of doing this transition? I think the end goal is to make better use of my time and skill set and get perhaps more bang for the buck, if you will. I think there's some overlap between P.I. and criminal. I have some friends that do P.I., and they seem to do exceptionally well. I'm just getting started. I don't know if you really remember my story. I came to Minneapolis, and February, middle of February was my first hang in my shingle. I had worked at a firm that did P.I., but I was primarily tasked with running the criminal department. I got a little bit of exposure, but not near as much as I would have liked. It's something that I've always had an interest in, and I've taken C.L.E.'s, and that sort of thing, read a lot of different resources over the years. I just said, "If I'm going to go to all this trouble, and rather than committing years and years, which I've already spent years and years in this career, I've been doing this 20 years, rather than spending years toiling as a solo and then building up a criminal practice." It's like, "Why not cut through all the B.S. and just start taking the steps to ramp up a P.I. firm instead?" Because while I've been doing well for the last seven months, eight months, I want to do much better than well. I didn't want to create a job for myself. I didn't want to create just another task. I'd like to do something a little more excited about. I mean, dare I say, I know there's more money involved. It just seems like, and maybe I'm totally wrong, it just seems like there's a lot more, you're getting a lot more in return for your time, and maybe that's not correct. Maybe I'm just not appropriately scaled in the criminal realm, but it just seems like I do a lot of spinning my wheels for $5,000, $4,000, $3,500, $2,000, $5,000. Oh, $15,000, $4,000, $4,000, $3,000. I look at my intake for all my billing, I'm like, "Man, you've been busy." But here we go, and I've got about $200,000 to show for, which, hey, I'm super stoked. I think that's super admirable first year out, first eight months out in my mind, I'm killing it. But all I've really done is created a six-figure job that's now my own, and now I've got to worry about all the other stuff that my boss used to tell me. He's like, "I'll trade with you, and in a second, you have no idea what I get paid and what I have to worry about this and that." I said, "Well, I don't know, you get to make all the decisions here, and I'm kind of stuck with that." I'm starting to get to make these decisions, but I'm like, "Man, my quality of life. I don't know how much different it's going to be, and if you might recall, my biggest concern was being my father. My father has a successful auto repair business. He's worked his whole life, and he's gotten that in the show for, because the second he's not there, the wheels come off the bus, so to speak. Here I am about eight months in, and I'm like, "Ugh, you're replicating Pops. You're working real hard. You're doing pretty good, but where's the end?" You really need to ... I know I have things I need to clean up in terms of systems and automating practices and all those things, and I'm still figuring out a lot of that, but that's kind of what gave me the idea, because I remember watching content from a maximum lawyer and guild, and of you saying how, "Hey, I remember making the jump over to PI, and at a certain point, I had to shut off those criminal intakes and those criminal calls," because the one was cannibalizing the other, and he's like, "It's such a different intake process that it slows down the PI," and I was like, "Here's a guy who made the jump clearly was proficient and criminal for a while, and decided to rip the bandied off and go for it." He said, "I'd really like to reach out to him and ask him, 'Hey, what did you do? Where were you at when you made that decision? What was the sort of transitional mechanism that was going on there? Where were you at with your criminal law firm at that point? What kind of numbers were you putting out? What kind of caseload did you have? Did you have a staff? How big was it? Those sorts of things. Again, I don't claim to have it all figured out as I started with if I'm going to spin my wheels on something, and I remember I worked for my little cousin, wife, a long time ago, she was, her office building was behind a very prominent Palm Beach PI firm, and she was like, "You shouldn't be doing this stuff here." She's like, "Go to PI. Go to PI." I feel like my whole life, everyone's been doing PI, has done very well. It's not to say they're not working their tails off. I know they work very hard, but I'm working very hard, so you know what I mean? I feel like, well, you must have had one of those moments, so I respect, I've been trolling through y'all's information for well over a year, and then I finally joined. I respect the process of what you guys have gone through, and I'm a relative neophyte when it comes to running a business and all that stuff, and I'm learning, and it's been very helpful, but I thought, rather than being too proud and just quietly reading books, like, "Why don't you just talk to someone, ask them questions. That's why the resources are here, and maybe you get some insight and maybe you hear something that says, "Yeah, get off your butt and do it, and take these steps and start moving in this direction if that's what you want to do." The backstory as well is my wife, she works at a big law firm, she does big-scale insurance defense stuff. No, the opposite. She got someone on the other side, that's interesting. So on the down low, she'd kill me if I was talking about her, my wife wanting to leave and go work with her husband and start that aspect of things. That's kind of what's in the back of my mind, and maybe that's crazy, I don't know, but I know if I could carve that out and get that going, I would have someone there that wants to jump in, and she's a highly competent attorney, and has that drive to go after that as well. I kind of wanted to speak to someone who kind of came from my background, because it sounds like you sort of did, worked at it, did well with it, and then said, "This is not where it's at, it's over here," and then you finally decided, "No, we're shutting it out." You made some statement about, I think it was web content, and you kept getting these Aaron calls, and it was messing up your SEO, I guess, just by having any word of criminal out there in the realm, and it was kind of like, "All right, we're taking it all off." Maria, you said you had a pretty decent nut coming in from those criminal calls, but you had to say, "No more," and I wanted to pick your brain about that thought process, because obviously you were a bit more involved in your knowledge of PI, no doubt, before you decided to get involved with it than I am right now, but if that's something I wanted to do, I think it obviously is a great place to start and start making those decisions now, rather than screwing around for another year or two or more, before I started saying, "Oh, I'd sort of like to make this transition." Yeah, there's a lot in there that it's good, because I think that's a good setup. I made a list of questions, too, for you. That's good, because I'll have questions for you, too, because I want to start with why you wanted to do it in a way, but we are similar, because in more ways than one, my dad's a mechanic. He owns his own garage. I've been very frustrated with telling him, "You need to hire, because he's 69," and I'm like, "Dad, he's a retirement agent, and I want him to be able to actually retire and enjoy himself and everything else." The guy is 69, turning a wrench, still, but you're right, he leaves in the business. He has other mechanics, but still, if he left, the business would go away, and so you've got definitely going to scale. It's the same exact thing. I talked to him yesterday, and I'm just like, "What happened to this retirement plan? What happened?" I'm just like, "It scares me to death, because you know that blood's in there." I guess a few things, and I don't know if I'm able to remember everything. Everything you said completely, but there's definitely a lot of things I want to talk about. The transition, we'll get to the transition a little bit, because I don't want to jump too far ahead. I will say this, we're similar in that we were, I'm assuming since you've been doing this so long, you're going to have to offload, not offload, you're going to have to resolve your criminal cases in one way, the other, whether that's give money back, or that means actually go through to completion. We were very similar in that. Do you have an idea as to what you want to do there? Are you wanting to give money back, or are you wanting to complete all those cases for the clients that you have now? I have a number of cases that are probably close to completion, you know, that people on payment plans that I could probably reasonably shore up. I think there's only a handful of cases that probably are headed for trial or major motions. Those are going to actually come to head probably in the next month, and then it's kind of a clean slate in terms of any real heavy lifting and work up, so a lot of these cases are cases that are ready to kind of resolve themselves, so that's not a huge concern. It's not like I have a giant book of business right at this moment. So, the way I'm kind of looking at this for you is since you, now I knew PI, right? I started in PI, so I knew PI, you're a little different, so my timeline, we were, I think the original timeline was two years, and we accelerated it to 18 months for the transition, and this was back. We started this back in like 2015 or 2016, so I'm trying to remember everything, but I think we started, yeah, I think we started the transition in 2016, and it was a two-year plan that we then, because right in between there, we had a partnership that I had, so we accelerated it quite a bit, but with yours, I would extend it to that full two years probably, and the reason why is you have to learn it first, so there's the part of like learning it, so maybe the first thing I would start doing is start slightly raising your rates on the criminal case, because that was one of the things we did, which was very, very beneficial for a variety of reasons, but we, the beginning of our plan was we doubled the rates, we actually doubled all of our rates, where we lost a bunch of cases, but we got a bunch of cases still, because they were coming in through referrals, and you are right, I would not shut off the website stuff yet, because with that, we were, I would wait until you're fully in PI to shut that off, and even then, you might find another way to do something with that content, but the problem with the criminal, once we were in fully in PI, is that we were, it was creating way too much of a headache, because we were having to deal with all the leads, and then refer them out to people, a lot of them were returning clients, or referred from clients, and that was, it was just a, it was a lot of pain, and we kept getting phone calls on it, and there was this website, or this video I had on warrants, like what should you do if you have a warrant, and it was like our number one video, and it took me a while to, to figure out where all of those damn calls were coming from, and a lot of them were from that video, where we, and so finally figured it out, and we, we shut that video down, and that we didn't, we didn't figure that out until well after the PI, we were into the PI, and we were done with the criminal, but I would, I would maybe, if I were you look at this more like, because you've been doing this a really long time, you have a lot of contacts, you probably have a lot of clients, do you do traffic and criminal, or just traffic, or just criminal? You know, I do DYs, but I, I try not to do the traffic stuff at all. Okay, because we, we do a lot of traffic too, because it was, for us, I was a loss later, because we were doing, you know, 50 bucks a ticket, but they led to criminal cases, and we had all, in Missouri, back then, I, I think it's gotten a lot, a little more complicated, but the, it was just, you know, you sent a couple letters, like one to the court, and one of the client, that was that, and it was pretty much done, they would pay for it, and if it weren't warrant, you'd get more money, and you'd go clear the warrant, and you'd do it all over again, kind of a thing, but it's, so it was, it was an easy, really, really easy thing to do, and we, we had automated a bunch of this stuff anyways, but, so I would look at this as more like a, you know, a two year plan, where you start to build up the PI business, you start to raise your rates a little bit, so you can build, learn, but then also build the PI business, which, and we're gonna get to kind of how you can get some of those cases, I think that part's important too. Something to consider, you know, on the back end of this two years, is you're gonna need more staff with the PI, that's, that's part of it too, is you're gonna need more people, generally, and we can, there's ways that you can kind of use your staff load by, by using a service, kind of like Yossières, where they order the records, there's a lot of them out there by far, to me, Yossières is the best, there's a, like, by far, there's a lot of benefits to them getting the medical records and bills, that's, that's the biggest challenge, and do you have any staff now? No. Okay, so you're, he'd be crazy not to do something like Yossières at this point, because you're, you're, I mean, you're not gonna be able to run a court all day as you're winding down these criminal cases, and then still remembered to request the medical records, and then follow up on the medical records, and then realize that you only have a partial set of medical records, I have to make a phone call, wait on 30 minutes, like it's, it's a real, if there's a time suck, it's medical records, and so that's the thing, that's the one of the most, if not the most important bits of information that you need, and it's really, but to get the most difficult thing to do, especially because of HIPAA laws, and it, you know, it should be difficult, that's a, that's, it's a good thing that it is difficult, because you don't want these hospitals just giving medical records out willy-nilly, but it is, it is a challenging part of the process, and Josier just kind of makes it all streamlined and easy for you. The rates, I would, don't skip on the rates though, I would definitely raise your rates, a good, good number, because what you have to do at this point, think about in two years what you want that to look like. Okay, so in two years, if, if you're still taking those cases at the same rate, you're going to, I mean, the number of cases is going to be higher in two years than if you were to raise the rate. Once you raise your rates, you're gonna, you're not going to get as many, but you're going to make probably just as much money if the, the way the math will play out. I, I know it's one of those things where a lot, a lot of people are very skeptical of that, but talk to people like Scott Rose, he'll tell you, keep raising your rates, you're going to be making just as much money, but doing less work, because you're, oh, I'll give you an example. When we did, I'll just make this really simple. Like with the D, like DWIs, we did, if we doubled our rates, so, and we kept getting, what was crazy for us was, we kept getting pretty much the same conversion rate, which was like, it did lower, but we're like, okay, we're still making more money, but it was, it, like, when we raised it even more after that, we were making, we were taking less cases in, but we were getting, we were actually making more money. And then that was nice, because I'm doing less work now, I'm doing less work, making more money, which is great. And then that's going to free up your time on the PI stuff. So you're going to, as the two year mark goes on, you're going to keep raising your rates, you're just going to keep raising them and keep raising them and keep raising them as you're bringing on the PI cases. And then that way, your caseload is lowering and you're not, you're not taking a big hit. If you told me you had, like, you know, million dollars in the bank that you could just do whatever you wanted with, I would tell you, okay, just shut it down, shut down the criminal, quit taking them, but you don't, I'm assuming. And so you, this is the, this is the kind of transition that I would do. I would not, I would not just cold turkey it, because that's, you're going to take a pretty big shock, a pretty big of a hit, pretty big hit, because you're, you just, I mean, you don't have that, that cushion that you need. The other thing is when PI too is, and this is where you need to factor, you've got to know this part of it too, is if you kind of look at like a graph, right, where you want to see, you're like, tell me like, your revenues and all that kind of stuff and your profit. So if we're talking about profit and then revenue, you're, you're really, you're, you're not going to be going up like this, like you want on the chart, it's going to be in the red immediately for PI. So you're not going to make a penny on PI for at a minimum, unless, unless someone walks in tomorrow with some policy limits case, that's, it's even if it's $100,000 policy limits case, that you, someone died in it. So let's say it's even $100,000 car crash, $100,000 wrongful death case, the only amount of policy available is $100,000. Okay, they, they offer that team mark to you tomorrow. Okay, great. You're still going to have to have a wrongful death hearing on that. I'm assuming in your state, you're going to need at least in Missouri, we would need to, but let's say it's a really serious injury, you're staying out of deal with liens and everything else. So you're spending money on your average case, you're losing your, you're losing money until you start making money. And at a minimum, you're going to wait six months before you make a penny on, on anything PI. So you're going to be losing money for six months on PI, sorry, the PI side of it. There will be a point where you start to hit the black and you'll hit pretty quick is you'll settle the case. And let's say you take 10 cases over the next six months, I think there's ways of getting way more than 10 cases. But let's say over the next six months, you get 10 cases, each of those go six months or so, you'll be, you'll be in the, in the red for a while, and all of a sudden one of them will hit and you'll go automatically in the black unless you've spent a ton of money on one of those cases. But so you will hit it, it's just a matter of, it's a matter of when. And I mean, the thing with PI's speed, sometimes with criminal, I mean, sometimes criminal speed is good. But sometimes to get the best results, speed is not great. You want to kind of slow it up, slow it down a little bit, especially victim cases, you kind of want to have to slow those down a little bit, wait, wait for all the emotions to kind of go and all that PI, it's the opposite, you've got to, you want to move those cases as quickly as possible, the older they get, the stailer they get, the less value there is. And so you want to keep that in mind too. But I have, so I have a lot of pointers and I can keep talking the whole time, but I know you have a lot of questions. So let's get your questions. I want to get your as many of the questions as we can. So let's fire up with another one of your questions and I can kind of add my pointers as I go. Okay, so just as a point of reference for me, how long were you practicing criminal before you made the, started doing this transition? So since we did it, it would have been six years. And what was interesting for me is I, I started in PI, but then I picked up the criminal. I in St. Louis, I got pretty early to the game with PPC. So the, you know, the AdWords and everything. And we, so we, we, we went gangbusters from fairly, fairly early. So we were able to pick up a lot of clients pretty quickly, which was a blessing and a curse all at the same time. But so six years before we, we made the transition. So you've been doing a lot longer. So yours is, yours may be a little bit more difficult. And why do you say it's more difficult just unlearning those, that format? Well, no, because just because you might have a lot more cases than I had. Yeah, then just maybe what it was is that you have way more, you might have more way more cases than we did at the time, because you've been doing it longer. That would bring me to our next question. What was the size of your, your criminal defense firm before you started this process? Yeah, back then we're probably a couple hundred, couple hundred criminal cases. I'd say between two and three. I don't know if, I don't know if we ever got to three when it comes to. And how big was your, your office, like your operation? How much staff did you have? We had at that time three in, in, in person, so in seat. And then we had, we were heavy remote people at that time, like big time, like overseas remote. And back then we were probably, yeah, that would have been 2016. So we would have been probably 10 or 15 remote. So we had a pretty decent remote staff at the time. And that, that was, for us, that was absolutely necessary because we had to get the, we had to get the records. We had a big, I don't think we had that big of a, I think probably at that time for the medical records team, I think the medical records team back then might have been, it was the other three or four people at one point got to six people total that were like full-time people. But back then it was probably three or four. And prior to doing the jump off into the PI though, I mean, how big was your operation for the criminal? Right before, right before switching over to PI was because, like fully PI, because we were doing both. We were doing both at the same time. That's when we were right around that 10 to 15. That was, that was the virtual. And then we had three in person. And then I guess for you, what was that triggering motion to say, all right, well, things are going good with criminal, but this isn't where it's at for me. I wouldn't say there's a triggering moment. I would just say it was a culmination of watching my cases go stale on the PI side because we weren't able to move them. We just, you're just dealing so much with criminal where you've got, and I'm just making assumptions that it's like, like that down there. But here it was, you got a court in the morning, you got a little bit of break, you kind of, maybe you'd come back to the office for a little bit, get a little bit of work done, go back at one o'clock or one 30, whichever docket it was. And with those, by the way, you're running from court to court to court. So you may not even come back to the office. And then you go after you're all, you're doing all the morning dockets, you're then running to the afternoon dockets. And then maybe you get back near the end of the day. And if you have night court, which night courts in St. Louis had both criminal and they've got traffic. So you're doing both and you're running all over and night courts run from Monday through Thursday. And you're doing that all day. So you're not, you're not moving any cases on the PI side. They were just growing stale. And I knew, I knew, I made the decision, honestly, probably two or three years later than I should have. It was one of the things where I, I knew the answer, but I knew how much money we were making PI, or criminal-wise. And I didn't want to give up the money. And that's one thing. I was afraid of giving up the money, and I shouldn't have been, because I knew better. I just waited longer than what I should have. So I guess my question, it's sort of the opposite of me going into this, like, it sounds like you were doing PI, but you did criminal because it's sort of bread and butter. You got money coming in, flat fees, versus the contingency setup. Got that ramped up. But then at some point, you realize, man, this is really kind of cut again to my ability to really ramp up the PI settlements and work up over all these cases, because they're getting stale, too much run around, too much in-person time with court on the criminal. So that sounds like you always kind of were doing PI. You just, you ventured into criminal to sort of, I guess, keep the lights on, I guess, in between those settlements, you know. That's exact, because we were, I mean, we were financing our own cases. That's the thing, like, we were, and this is something I'd picked up from somebody early on. They said, you know, like, start taking criminal cases, because, and I got lucky enough that the firm I worked for, it was really interesting. It was an injury firm, right? That's what they were. But one of the, one of the guys, Ed, he did, it was like this, it was just weird, it was like a secret in a way, because it was an injury firm. But one of the guys still did traffic and criminal. He's one of the, one of the, he was one of the owners. And it was like, they didn't really want people to know about it, but they did, it was just weird, it was just a really weird dynamic. But the benefit to me was that Ed would ever once in a while, he'd send me out on a criminal case. And so I was like, I got to actually got familiar with it enough where I felt comfortable enough doing it, because I could have done a variety of things. I could have done family law or whatever, but I felt comfortable enough with criminal. And I remember talking some way early on, they're like, you know, when you first start out, you're going to want to do both of those so that you can fund those cases. And I, and I, I thought it was pretty good advice, because if you're starting it, if you're to start a PI firm from scratch, you got to have some sort of money to help pay for things, because you're financing the, not your, your, your, I guess, in a way, you are financing the cases for the clients, but you have to, you have to find a way to pay for all the expenses that you incur on these cases. Otherwise, the other alternative is, is bringing in another firm to help, you know, finance the cases for you or using one of those case finance companies, which I don't like either one of those ideas, because you're then, because one of the case finance companies, the interest rates are pretty silly. The, if you're, if you're splitting the fee with someone, because they're finding some, you're, it's not worth it. It's really not like it's the investments great for them, but it's not for you. So you're losing out a lot of those fees. And so you have, you have options if you want to do that, but you need some sort of money, some sort of way to pay for the PI cases to do it the right way. On like your average case, it's not, it's nothing usually ridiculous as you're not talking about, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, but sometimes you're talking, you're talking about hundreds at least you're talking about thousands sometimes, but on the bigger cases, you're, you're definitely talking about the thousands on, and so you've got to have a, you have to find a way to pay for that. Otherwise, you're not going to do the case any justice and you're not going to get as much money on that case as you should, which is bad for the client and it's bad for you. I guess, what do you think that your best advice in terms of what do you really have to be absolutely kind of square on to say, this is, this is what I want to do, you know, I'm willing to make this transition from, you know, a flat fee, you get paid, you kind of know what's coming in versus rolling the dice on these contingency cases where, I mean, obviously, you probably have a good eye once you do this a little while, you see, okay, well, this case, I've just got this call, I think it's, it's probably worth about this amount of money and you probably get good eyeballing those cases. So you know what's involved, you know what it's going to take, just like in criminal with flat fee. So I guess, what is that biggest, other than, yeah, you got a little bit of money, some more than a little to work up these cases and float them to investigate them. But I guess, what is that biggest thing you saw that was someone in my position should be very much aware of before they make this jump? That's a, that's a fun question. You got to be willing to spend money. You got, so you got to be willing to take some of that risk. But more important than that is you've got to know when to, when to settle. And you got, you really got to know when you got to keep pushing harder, because the, the big mistake that I see people make is they, they will, they will settle cases for a lower value than what they should. And I assume the reason for that is, is that they need the money, they need to move the cases for the money, as opposed to, you know, waiting it out. Because once you have enough cases, one case settling or not selling it should not, you know, affect you, you know, it's obviously a really big case comes in, and you, you're close to selling that. If you get a massive windfall where you get a, you make windfalls right out the way, putting it, but you get a massive settlement where a bunch of money comes in. Yeah, that affects you in a certain way. But it's not going to affect your decision making on, on, on how you should, what you should do with certain cases. So you, there, there should not be a point where you're selling cases just for the sake that you need the money in. And that is something that you just got to be, you can't rush some of these cases. Some of these cases, they do take a little bit of time. And I, so I, I did say that, you know, you got to be fast with these cases. But that doesn't mean you, you do it to the point where you're, you're sacrificing tens of thousands of dollars, because you can't wait a couple months, you know, like that's, you got to be, you got to be willing to wait it out sometimes. Sometimes you got a, you got a file suit on a case that you didn't really want to file suit on. But you know that that's the only way that you're going to get the full value for it, which that's the other part of it too. Sometimes full value is not, is not always something to go for. So I, that, you have to be able to balance these things too, because yeah, I can go, I can push this thing all the way to trial it. Let's say we'll just use a, let's use a rear end car crash case where they're fighting us on damage, damages. So we've, you know, it's clear liability, but we're just, it's, you know, chiropractic treatment with MRIs, we've got the imaging and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, we say the case is worth, we think full value is $45,000. They say full value is $30,000. Okay. Yeah, I might be able to get full value by taking this thing filing suit on it and pushing it all the way up to the bring a trial where the point where they finally file offer $45,000. That could be a thing. Or maybe at the, maybe you could settle for $40,000 and you could do that after filing suit or you get to the point where pre-lit right before you file, they offer $40,000. Okay, it's, it makes much more sense to, to settle it at 40 than it does at 45, because your, your client isn't going to want to have to go through all that crap. You're not going to want to have to go all that when it comes to litigation, depositions. And I mean, at 45 versus $40,000 litigation versus pre-lit, you're, they're losing money by getting $45,000 because of all the case expenses, right? Like, so you're, you have to start to weigh those factors because you, you could make the mistake of filing suit on a case and spending a bunch of money and then the client gets less than pre-lit. That's not a good idea. That's a, that's a, that's a way for a client to be really mad or you having to cut your fees, which actually, you know what? Let me, let me segue to that. Don't cut your fees ever. There's a, there's a, there's a lot of reasons why not to do that. I had this conversation. We, we have a firm stance in our office. We don't cut our fees. There's, there's got to be a really good reason. And the only, the only real main reason that we should do it is because we're, we, we would be getting more than the client. And that does, because sometimes with a lean statute, Missouri works, rarely this happens, but sometimes the way it works is that we'll be getting slightly more than the client. So we'll adjust our fee so that we're getting less than the clients. We don't, I just don't, I just don't feel right about that. But I've had, I had a, we've had an attorney join our firm and he had a previous client that kind of fell out of, he started to get, he got mad at the client, at that attorney. And so I switched over, I took over the case. The client said something to me like, well, you know, I want you to lower your fee on this case. What, and I said, well, we don't, we don't do that. Well, such and such whenever, you know, they handled my case before, they lowered the fee and he, you know, they screwed up on the case. I know it was because they screwed up on the case. And I said, well, we have, we didn't screw up on your case on this case. We, we're not lowering our fee. We don't lower our fee. So the first point is, is that people will assume that you screwed up and that's why you load your fee. Okay, that's, that is number one. Number two, when defense attorneys know that you're going to cut your fee, they'll just low volume. I had, I had this conversation a few months ago. The, the attorney said something to me, she made a comment to me, which I've had defense attorneys do this to me before, where you can just cut your fee. The, the first time this, I, or the time previously that someone had said this to me was a defense attorney, we were standing outside of court and he said something to me about, and they'd actually made a pretty decent offer that we were going to accept, but he said something because I just kind of like, I don't know if that's going to get it done. And he goes, well, you can just make, you just cut your fee. And I said, we don't cut our fees. And then this attorney that I was talking to a few months ago, she said, you know, you just cut your fee. I said, we don't cut our fees. She's like, why? Everybody does it. I said, we don't. And I went there and I told all the reasons why, like we, we earned our fee. That's how much money we made on that case. We set our fees a certain way for a reason. And so the, what they will do is these defense attorneys, they'll make offers based on you cutting your fees. So now what you've done is you've lowered the value of your case, you're getting less money and the client's getting less money just because they know you're lowering your fees. And since then, I talked to that attorney again, she says, you know, I think it's so smart that you don't cut your fees. It's because it really does set a bad, bad precedent. And so we had this other, so it's a thing. And once they know that you're not cutting your fees, they'll stop low balling you on the numbers. So just know that too. And if you get, if you get a reputation for settling cases for less than the worth and they'll just start offering less on the case anyway. So just, there's a lot, a lot with that. But the, the main thing is, is don't, don't under settle a case. That's, that's a bad idea. Taking that into terms of dealing with cases and then all makes good sense. Being in South Florida, obviously we had a lot of big, big heavy hitters, you know, how do you stay competitive with, with the gorillas, you know, out there in the PI realm? There's, I mean, a few things. The, you know, I was actually talking to some attorneys about this the other day. There's, there's plenty of business for everybody. So start with that mindset. There's, there's just, there's plenty of business for everybody. But the way to beat them is, is really through the, through referrals. That's the way to beat them. But you, there's, there's still plenty of business in your area and my area where they don't want to hire, where people don't want to hire those, those big gorillas, because they know that they're volume firms and that they'll be another, they'll just be another number. And we, we're, we have Morgan and Morgan in town. We have before them, there was a firm called, uh, Brandon Crouppen. They were like the big volume firm in St. Louis and, and, and in the state. But it has, with Morgan and Morgan and Morgan and town, it hasn't changed our numbers any. I'm sure it's, I'm almost certain it's probably lowered Brandon Crouppen's numbers. It probably has because they're fishing in that pond, but I mean, the, the small to mid-size firms, I think we're just fishing in different ponds where we probably have higher value cases than they do. We're getting a lot of ours through, through networking and all that, which this is a good time to kind of talk about where, what I want to talk about, like the way you should get some of the cases. So this is how you compete with them. You, you go to some of these PI firms, the bigger ones, and you talk to their people because they don't, they don't keep all their cases and, and let them take on some of the litigation files. So they don't want it to them, a lot of the volume firms, they don't want to take these PI cases if they're going to litigation. So they'll take it, they'll take it up to a certain point and then they'll be like, they'll either want to dump the case or they'll want to refer it and, and they don't really want to file suit on it. So there's a lot of business you can get from the firms that don't want, the volume firms that don't want to file suit on. So that's one way. But then also, if you were just to network with people, animal law attorneys, criminal defense attorneys, you probably know a ton of them down there because you do criminal defense, you can get a lot of business from those people. They know that, especially if they know you, they're going to be like, Oh, you know what? I like Tanner. He's doing PI now. He's going to take, take care of me because he, he's going to send me that, that co-counsel fee. So there's a lot of, a lot of ways, but it's the way you compete with them though to, you know, to make it, you know, kind of put a bow on it, but is do that in person networking because you can get a lot of cases that way. And I've, I've told people this on the hot seats all the time where if you want to move to a new city and sort of brand new PI practice, you could do it, or any practice. You should get networking. It's just about meeting people, having coffees, making phone calls. It's, it's a lot like a sales job, but you can do all that. It just, it just takes a lot of leg work, but you can compete with them and you can get a lot, there are a lot better cases too. The cases you get from referral just can be better cases anyways. If to go back, well, I'll go before that. What are some good resources? I guess someone in my position to kind of get either get familiar with or start learning about what are helpful in sort of making that transition to more of this type of a practice area. All right. So this isn't going to give you the nuts and bolts on how to do things, but this is going to give you the, the mindset you need, read running with the bulls, and it's by Nick Rowley, R-O-W-L-E-Y. It's by Nick Rowley and his wife, and I forgot her name, but they're both attorneys, they're both trial attorneys, they're both great, but Nick is, I don't know if you've ever heard Nick Rowley, he's one of the best trial attorneys in the country, if not the, and he's, he's not, he's not that old. He's, he's really good, but he's got the right mindset for it. And so read running with the bulls, it's great. He does give some nuts and bolts, but it gives you a way of evaluating the cases, too, where you remember that they're human beings. So there's, there's a lot of that. I know that we have the, you know, Missouri Association of Trial Attorneys, which is great about putting on, you know, the, the conference every year, it's the, the, the matter conference is very well known in Missouri, like all the trial attorneys go to it. So I, I'll assume that you've got something like that in your, and in Florida, especially in Florida, I would, I would assume something like that. If you're going to get, you're going to get a lot of the nuts and bolts with that specific to Florida law, because that's what you're going to need to know. There, I mean, and we can, we can chat some more about like process and, and, and how you want to do all that. But we, because we have a very certain way of doing it, but the, that, that part, I think I would, that's, that's kind of a, kind of interesting thing, because I, I can tell you to go like one of like the national, you know, programs, but I just, you'll get, you'll get some of it, but you don't, what you're not going to get is you're not going to know that in Missouri, the statute of limitations is five years, but it actually shortened to three years under certain circumstances. You know, you're not going to know that in Illinois, it's generally two years, but if it, if you had a slip and fall on a, at a public hospital, it's actually only one year. So like these other things, like in Florida, where you're not going to know all those by going to some of these national organizations, like you're not going to get that from reading Nick Rowley. You're not going to get that from, so trial lawyers university is another great one. Trial lawyers university is really, really good. I'd, so you could get a subscription to that because they have a lot of videos, they have a lot of free videos that are on YouTube too, so you can watch those, but trial lawyers university is fantastic. I support them. And until my, I, someone asked for a resource, I was mentioning them, I almost forgot to mention them, but they're, they're, they're fantastic. Trialers university, Nick Rowley, and then you're going to, you're going to need to sit down with someone and really figure out what the, like what all the deadlines are in Florida, like that's the stuff that you really want to get down. Don't forget to update your malpractice insurance. That's another thing. Like that's, that's a big one that you're going to want to do because you don't want to get popped on a case where you don't have malpractice insurance because just because you forgot to do it or that, oh, I forgot to tell you I do PI. That's, that's not a good reason. It's not a good reminder. I guess if you could go back, I know you're very tech savvy and, and you, you're very on top of all, it seems like a lot of the latest trends and kind of automating and getting things done at a very high level. Is there anything I guess you would do differently, you know, in hindsight? You know, everyone, some people will say, oh, I wouldn't do anything differently. The best decision I ever made. I wouldn't change the thing. But I think most people in their heart of hearts can say, would have did this differently or would have, would have went this instead of that way. Yeah. So that's, that's an interesting thing. Like how, what I would have done differently, I think, I mean, the main one I think is, is I probably would have done it sooner. I probably would have done that way sooner. This may be kind of an odd one. I have thought about this one quite a bit. The without sounding too harsh. So the first firm I worked for was a volume firm. It was an injury firm. And the way they handled cases was, was much more like the client was a number. And so I kind of, it was odd to me, like whenever I first started, it was, it wasn't the mindset I had, but it was the, the way our processes were set up were much more like an assembly line. And then I got to know PI, once I started my own firm, I started learning, you know, meeting other PI lawyers and I read Nick Rowley and all that. And I, it was this kind of a wake up call that there's a better way of doing things. So don't, don't view clients, don't set up things so that they're viewed as a number because they'll feel that way. I can, I can promise you that. And you, you have to remember that these are human beings that have been injured. Your, your staff has to know that when they call you, they're probably not in a very good mood. They don't have their car, like they're, they're, they're, they're been in a car crash and their car is in a tow lot somewhere. They don't know how they're going to get their kids to school tomorrow. They've got a massive headache. Their, their neck is hurting them. They don't know how hurt they are because they've not got an MRI. So like, they're scared and your people have to know that. And they, they've got to be able to empath empathize with those people. And they've got to be able to absorb a little bit of frustration and anxiety from clients because they're, they're in these, they're not meaning to be rude to, like sometimes that may come off really rude, but it's not them coming off rude as them being in a really tough situation. They're, they're needing help. And, and so your people need to be trained in that way where they know that these people are going to be calling in this manner and that they're, that, that they may sound frustrated and they may seem like they're angry, but they're not angry with us. They're not frustrated to us if they are frustrated. It's just a matter of they need some help. And so you, yeah, give them a little bit of grace. That is, that's one of those things where you'll learn, you'll learn that over time and your people will learn that over time. Luckily you, you're kind of starting from the ground up so you can do that and teach that from the beginning, but you've got to know that that's, that's the mindset that they kind of go in. And what's weird, it's what's interesting is, I don't know if there's a phrase for this, but we should kind of, kind of name it, but they were like, they kind of come out of that. Yeah, like there's like this thing, it was like a transition with a PI client where they, they seem very cranky at the beginning because they probably are cranky, right? But then they come out of it and they become like this very welcome, like this great person, you know, sometimes at the beginning, they're not, sometimes like they're just in a tough spot and they, but then they transition into this kind of like a butterfly, you know, they become this beautiful butterfly that they start to feel better and everything. But you, at sometimes at the beginning, it's just not that way. Sometimes they can be tough. Those are definitely some good points. I had one last question. I know this is more probably a question that one gains from having the experience and being in the trenches and fielding those calls, doing those intakes and working through these difficult cases, but are there resources out there that you would recommend that kind of help a newbie to the world of PI, you know, crash cases, how to sort through what's a good case, what's a bad case, what's a case you want to run from, you know, because I can remember working on my old firm and a lot of the chatter and discussions about, you know, there's certain things that seem like most PI attorneys try to stay away from at any cost. And then you always hear about this rogue person that says, no one would go near my case. These people put in the effort and it turned into some huge thing. I mean, I know these are outlier situations oftentimes, of course, but overall, not to dumb it down, but do you have sort of that cliff notes advice, if you will, or that jumpstart outline to say, look for these things, avoid these things, or be mindful of these things when evaluating cases, at least in the beginning, before you kind of get your training wheels off. Ignore the outliers, I'll start with that. Yeah, it's just one of those things like we've had, we have our outliers and those are great, but they're outliers, right? They're not indicative of anything, really. But the, all right, so you, the first thing you want to look at is liability, and we can kind of break down what liability, what liability looks like on a PI case, when it comes to a car crash or a premises liability, right? But start with, like, because I'm kind of, I'm going off what, like, we trained, we train our CARES team, which are not lawyers, to evaluate cases, right? So we look for liability, we're off the bat, right? And our willingness on whether or not we want to take a case on liability, if liabilities are rough, if damages are high, we're more willing to take one of those iffy liability cases, and that, so that's one of the things like, you got to have liability, so I'll make it really easy first, but so liabilities clear, you've got good damages, okay? Sometimes that's not so clear, so you want one, it may seem like they're not hurt, I've had these several of these cases, you can ask a lot of PI attorneys about this, they really need to get evaluated before you can really say that they're not hurt. I've had people who are like, ah, because they're calling the day of, they're adrenaline kicking in, and their body, their brain has kind of numb the pain, they're walking around with these tears, and they're, and they're spine, and they, or these herniations, that they really can't even feel, because they're, because they're, they're numbed up, you know, or maybe they went to the ER and they got some pain meds, and they feel fine, but they're not, they're actually just on pain meds. So like they're, you got to give a little bit of, the imaging is, is something that's absolutely crucial in a personal injury case, so I said I was gonna make this simple and I made it more complicated, but imaging is, is one, something we got to talk about too, but clear liability, good damages, okay? Those two, start with those two. The, the, if you want to make it super simple, because we have, we have like four or five things that we ask at, in our micro intakes, but you go, liability damages a pocket to go after, so a pocket could be insurance, or it could be a business, right? Or governmental entity is what we do. So the reason why we put a business, because there's sometimes, like Walmart is self-insured, a lot of grocery stores are self, like the chains are self-insured, where there's no, there's no insurance, but they've, they've set a side money for it, so you've got, you've got, you've got to have the, at least those three things, liability, damages, a pocket to go after, make sure they're not represented by another attorney. And then if you want to get into some of the red flags, this is an interesting one that we, we've, we've identified, or the CARES team has identified. Some of our like worst cases, by worst, I mean, like some of our worst clients are clients without an email, which that, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of funny. They, the clients would add an email address, or for some reason. I think that's universal. Just not great clients. Yeah, it's like, so it is an interesting thing where we're like, we had this winter quarterly meeting last week, and it was just like, we, we've had a conversation about it. So we've, we are considering not taking any more cases where the client does not have an email. Like it would, it's like that bad, but like, you know, if obviously if they're hit by a truck, like a semi-truck, then that's going to be a little different. But the, so, you know, previous attorneys is, is another, another really bad one. Something I've identified, this is, this is rarely not proven right, but clients that are trouble, trouble clients are the ones that say this phrase. It's not about the money to be. It is one, if that's true, that's a problem for you, because they probably won't accept anything. You're trying the case, no matter what, even if it's a bad offer, that means you'll probably never make them happy. Or it's only about the money. It's like someone trying to prove to you that they have, they have a really good case. And so, and they, they, they want a bunch of money and you'll never build a satisfy them. So, you're, that's one of those, that's one of those lines where I, you have to really watch out for it. Now, it's not, it's not about the money to me. Well, if it's about principles to you, then you, then, then we need to have a conversation because you can't take a case on principle. There's got to be, there's got to be an actual legal justification for it. That, that's pretty important. But so, let's talk about the MRI. You got, you got to make sure that they get an MRI. Any of the doctors that you're dealing with, you can deal with a lot of terrible doctors that will screw up a case because they're, like chiropractors are overgeneralized. I will generalize a little bit. Many chiropractors will not refer a client out for an MRI because they're going to lose, they're afraid of losing that, as a, that person as a patient because, you know, your treatment chiropractor, they refer you out for an MRI and let's say you're really jacked up, your spine is jacked up. Well, guess what? They're probably going to start going to an ortho and they're not going to want to come back to you potentially. And you got to know that the, you got to be working with chiropractors that know to get you out to an MRI. They've got to know that they can still treat the patient at the same time that they're getting pain management, they're seeing an ortho and they're, you know, they can, they can, they can, they shift almost like a physical therapy as opposed to like chiropractic. So they got to know that, you know, they can do that because you, they can, you're talking about losing a boatload of money is by working with the wrong doctors. They'll, they'll, they'll screw over the, the client and which means you're going to get paid less money. That's a really big, big thing. But, and then let's give the value because I, we can talk about all these stuff. And I can give you on another call, we can kind of talk more about how to look at an injury case even more and like the things to do, what not to do when it comes to the process. But injury on, on like a car crash, you know, you're looking for, for damage, I'm not even going to say like, you know, severe damage, but you're looking for damage. There's a lot of cars these days where there is damage, but it doesn't look super bad. But it really is because you can go underneath the car and look at the actual frame and see how things are checked out. But when you're looking at like minimal damage, try to avoid those cases. There is like, I'm talking about like a scratch, things like that. Those don't, don't make that be your only thing because we've had cases where car A, no damage. I'm talking literally no damage. Car B destroyed because it maybe hit a bumper the wrong way or hit the, this is a big one where they rear into trailer hitch. So you are, so you're, and you're going to want to understand all the mechanics of injuries too. But all of that force, all right, it was absorbed somewhere as it's usually absorbed by the bodies and the vehicles. So even though car A that rear ends B, A is destroyed and B is not, that doesn't mean people inside were not injured. They might try to say that, but you look at the damage to both vehicles, that that's an important part of it too. But you don't, you don't want to be taken cases where there's minimal damage on both sides. When it comes to like a premises liability case, or, and also police reports, you want to make sure that the insurance is good and the, that they got a police report and all that. But on premises case, like falls, like you know, slip and falls, those cases, what you're looking for is your, you know, what caused like specifically what caused you to fall, like not that you fell, like what exactly caused you to fall, because what you don't want to be, and I've been in this depot before, by the way, where, you know, they intake notes say one thing, but the client is in the depot saying, I know I fell, I don't know what exactly what caused me to fall, I don't know what I tripped on, I don't know what I slipped on, whatever, it's like, well, there's going to be a motion for summer judgment coming after this, you know, like, so you, you have to be, you have to be careful about that, like, so figure, they have to tell you exactly what they slipped or tripped on. That's a really important part of it. Witnesses, they're fantastic, you want witnesses, you want to avoid people that have left the store and not reported it to anybody, that's another thing, you want to avoid it where people have walked through that area and then back through that area, that's, that's another thing, that's, that's a big one where you, you just walked through this wet floor that you knew was wet, and you, you tiptoe through it, and then you came back and fell, like, that's, that's not the case here, you want to try that, that may seem obvious to some people, but not so much. Don't, don't be so quick to give up on a case where there's a wet floor sign because it, what does a wet floor sign do? It tells you that there's, there's an issue here, there's something on the floor. Okay, in that spot, right, it doesn't tell you that there's wet floor over there, it tells you there's a wet floor over here in this spot, it doesn't tell you that over there, and, or, and sometimes, like, if you're, so your client is pushing a card or something, they may not see it, so you get to look at it from their perspective, so don't, just because they tell you that, hey, there's a wet floor sign, the, I'm talking about the insurance adjuster, or even if the client mentions it in, in, in the intake call, don't let that be the reason that you don't take the case because there are, you got to look at it from their perspective, try to get the video if you can, if there is one, but there's, there's a lot of, like, pre-existing injuries, don't be scared off by pre-existing injuries, I know a lot of people are worried about W, we've, we've settled tons of cases for really big money on pre-existing injury cases, so I, I, I don't know why people are so afraid of those, there's, there's, to, you can, you can definitely paint it in a way where they're, the case is more valuable now because they had, yeah, they had neck surgery, and guess what, after the neck surgery, they were great, they were in really good shape, I got, I've got that exact case right now, client is, is, had a, had a neck surgery, it was perfectly fine afterwards, was like, like, you know, doing like these extreme athlete things, afterwards, they, they got, they got rear-ended, neck's allject, now they can't do any of that stuff, so there's, there's a lot of value in that case, and there's a lot of value in those cases in general, so don't be afraid of those either. I know earlier you said, when you were talking about things to avoid, and you said, do, you know, don't get involved with folks that previously had an attorney, I hear you correctly, because I know, certainly gotten those calls at my old firm, I was like, oh, I'm represented by fill-in volume, mega firm name here, and, you know, no communication, yada, yada, yada, I haven't heard it from this person, and I haven't heard of many months, they don't even know who I am, you know, the, the usual, you know, I certainly field those calls for criminal, it's like, oh, well, who was your attorney, and I'm like, I'm not this person, okay. I would say on that, it's a red flag, it's not an automatic rule out, right? It's just one of those things where we, we kind of elevate it and say, okay, let's look at this a little bit more, because I've definitely taken over cases where they're, they're, we had good results, but the way I put it to clients, this is, this is the way I put it to clients that I don't want their case. It's like, if I went into, let's say, let's say Tanner, I, you, you cooked a dinner last night, right? You didn't, you cooked the dinner, and you didn't put any of the dishes away, and you didn't clean any of those dishes, and then you asked me to come over and make you dinner tonight. Well, I'm now coming in and I'm cleaning, or I'm cooking a dinner for you with a bunch of dirty dishes, I'm at the wash the dishes myself, and then put them, and then reuse them and wash them again. So I'm cooking in a kitchen where the chef before me, or the person that cooked before me, messed everything up and I'm having to, I'm having to clean up. And that doesn't mean that the other side, the other attorney screwed up, it just means that I've got to now clean up a bunch of stuff that, because we do things differently, like, and so that's the way I put it to people. And that, because, and so you do get, you do sometimes what's, we've taken over cases before where it's a clean file, like we've taken where the other attorneys died before, you know, or, you know, they're retiring or something like that. So you get a, you get a file that looks good, right? But you'll get other ones where you, you might take it over and it's, it's, it's, it, you would have been better off not getting the file and just starting from scratch. So yeah, you should be, be careful about those. All right, so I better end it there because I do at the, at the call of clients. So well, this was fun. Any, any other quick questions I can try to field? I don't think so. You covered a lot of ground and I made a lot of notes here. So I mean, it's a good kind of refresher for me in terms of what to think about and what to start working towards. So that's, that's kind of what I was looking for in general. I mean, I know there's not like kind of a bullet pointed list out there. And I think once I get into it, I can follow up with you with more competent, precise questions and that sort of thing once I kind of dip my toe in a bit further. That's so, but I did want to get you a perspective because I do your background was a little bit similar. And I just thought, well, it's a good place to start, you know, in terms of some, because most people I know they've just done the PI, you know, they've never done any kind of criminal and they are kind of unique in a way. So I just, but in the same right, I've never heard anyone say they regretted being involved with PI and I hear a lot of criminal guys. Yeah, that's so well. I do know, I know a few, but there's, it's one of those things like, yeah, I think sometimes the outside looking in, they see a bunch of big settlements and they don't, they don't realize that there's, there's a lot overhead. So once you get to kind of like the bigger level cases, there's, there's, it gets a little more complicated, but we can, we're going to talk about that in two years, whenever you're freaking crushing it and you've got a massive injury case load. So we can have another conversation there. But no, I think people get a lot, I think you're, I think people are getting a lot from this because they've, they probably considered making a similar transition from their firms. But all what I'll do is we'll, because we always have these transcribed, what I'll do is I'll kind of make these into like a, some sort of, you know, notes, and I'll share it with you. And then if people want it, they can kind of reach out and, and ask us for it and we can kind of, we can share it with them too. But that way you're, you know, we always have, like I said, we have these transcribed, we'll have to turn it into some notes and then I'll just send it over to you. Awesome. Cool, man. I appreciate it. It was, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I enjoyed it. So that's fun. All right, Ben, cool. I'll be in touch and I look forward to the notes and yeah, definitely interested in that. I'm sure I'll be seeing you shortly. Sweet. I mean, thanks, Tanner. We'll see you, bud. All right, Ben. Take care. Have a good one. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to the Maximum Lawyer Badger. To stay in contact with your host and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com. Have a great week and catch you next time. (upbeat music)
