The chief minister has hit back at comments made by the former Health Minister calling him 'disingenuous' for continuing to make broader comments about the council of ministers' position.
It's after Lawrie Hooper said CoMin ‘completely ignored’ information provided by Manx Care about the impact on service delivery if cuts were made.
Hi, I'm Sean, one of the editors at Manx Radio. Now, over the weekend, the former Health Minister Laurie Hooper made comments to Manx Radio about the Council of Ministers' completely ignoring information provided by Manx Care about the impact on service delivery if cuts were made. It's something that the Chief Minister Alfred Cannon has refuted he joined for myself and Ben on Manx Radio Breakfast. Mr Hooper saying that had he told you in advance he was going to step down, you'd have fired him and thrown him under the bus, would you? Well, not going to get into tip for tap with Laurie Hooper. I mean, the fact that he stepped down now and there was an exchange of views last week about the reasons why he stepped down. But it is very disingenuous of him to carry on making broader comments about the Council of Ministers' position here. Because Council, the bottom line is, Council have never, ever voted through any cuts to health services. Council have taken a very responsible position in my view regarding the funding position. And Laurie just fundamentally seems to just disagree with the fact that the health care system has got a responsibility to function within the budgets that it is allocated. Now, Council has said it is just irresponsible and unethical maybe in some ways to go to the public, to go through the pain of voting through a 10% tax increase. And then for the organisation to turn around a matter of months later, or maybe arguably weeks later and say, 'By the way, we're now going to be forecast to be £16 million over spend.' It's just simply not responsible for us to continue to endorse this kind of over expenditure because the long-term impacts on our future security, our financial security are hugely significant. And that's been Council of Ministers' position. It has not been the Council of Ministers' position that they want to see cuts to health care services, or indeed, privatisation. Mr Hooper's position is very much that this information, it wasn't known months after the budget. This was information you've had for a long time and that it was ignored because in his words, it didn't fit with your world view. Is that something you would agree with? Absolutely not. And Council were clear, very clear when we got to that position of supporting the budget and supporting that tax increase. And as I think were many members of Tim Ward led to believe that this additional resource, the extra £43 million that was going into health, the 10% tax increase was done on the basis that the organisation had enough money to operate properly this year. And that was always the position. It has not been the clear position that actually health was not financially planning properly, that there was an audit report that said that health spending and financial management was not in a good position. And subsequently, all this has come out following Laurie Hooper's resignation. Look, we've got to pick this up. I've spoken to a number of Tim Ward colleagues over the weekend, and they all want to see this brought to resolution. It is a very, very serious matter. Laurie has walked away from the position. That's fine. I and my colleagues and many other members in Tim Ward now want to deal with this issue and we've got to deal with it quickly. We're only months away from a few months away from the next budget. And we've got to get ourselves into a position where we can tell the nation that we are properly in control of our finances. And if health care spending and banks care cannot operate within budgets, then we need to tackle the fundamental issues as to why that is and try and put them right. You yourself have now been interim health minister for, I think this is day six. You said in Tim Ward last week that you'll be coming to November Tim Ward with a bit of a look at the mandate. What exactly can patients in particular expect to see from that? Well, patients, I hope we'll continue to receive first-class health care. And I was at the hospital on Friday. I spoke to a number of the staff, the frontline staff and look. People are getting excellent care on the whole from banks care and the frontline doctors and nurses who are providing that. What I have wanted to do now, I think obsessing about the minister is just the wrong position to take. This is far broader than just one minister tucked away in the Department of Health and Social Care trying to sort out the issues. I brought in Chris Thomas and David Ashford to support me. In the short term, at least whilst we start to identify the critical areas that we need to tackle, I need to do that in conjunction with other members of Tim Ward. I also need to do that in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Care, Manx Care, and we're appropriate the public. But I think that's going to be a slightly bigger question and one that will take longer to answer. As I said, Sean, we've got to sort this out and sort this out quickly. And that means looking at the budget, looking at the mandate, looking at the engagement with people, both in the health care service, but also more broadly across the community and particularly with my colleagues in Tim Ward. We've got to understand the transformation program that is currently in place and the costs associated with that and the relevance of that seven years after Sir Jonathan Michael. And then we need to look at the governance around the organisation. There isn't a lot of time, haven't got time for big consultations. This really is about quickly understanding the issues, working together to understand the problems and agree the solutions that are necessary. As I said, the organisation, not just health, but across government, needs to operate within budget. We've got a financial responsibility to do so for future generations and it's critical that we don't get distracted by arguments about privatisation, which frankly are a nonsense. Well, Chief Minister, you say this situation has to be turned around quickly. I think a lot of people now will be listening to you. Actually, we don't care about all this infighting, this backbiting, this tip for tat. It just needs sorting, this situation at Manx Care, the funding, services being cut. So you say the situation needs to be turned around quickly. Can you give us a time frame on this? Are we talking days, weeks, months are actually, is this so big? It could take longer than that to actually turn around and get properly sorted. No, there's an absolutely critical issue first and foremost and that is the ability of the Treasury Minister to come to Tim Wold and the nation next February with a budget that we can all absolutely endorse and trust. Our economic plans, our financial fiscal plans are strong or solid, but they are only in a finite position and they are delicately balanced. So, over expenditure, particularly in health, where we have given so much money already over the last three years, will cause us long-term problems, Ben. It's going to eat into our reserves to a point where they will damage the reserves and damage the strength of the island's ability to manage in the long-term unless we bring this under control. And that's why it is a serious issue and that's why it's an issue that involves us all because everybody at some point will, of course, want some involvement with the health care system, but also it's absolutely vital that we ensure that we protect our financial security for the long-term as well. So, but it does need quick resolution. So, if the nightcare budget then is not under control, do you have to make changes at the top at Manx Care? Is that something you're considering because three and a half years in? Clearly, this budget is not under control. Well, one of the one of the strong reasons behind agreeing to Manx Care was, of course, the budget tree issue, the budget tree overspend. The other reasons, of course, were around delivery of professional health care and the need for greater professional oversight around that. So, how do you turn that around quickly, then you say it has to be done quickly? Well, how do you do that? By first of all, you have to get everybody in the room, identify and agree where the issues are, look for some of the underlying problems that are leading to those issues, whether that is a need for more financial support, whether that is a need for adjustments on the mandate, or indeed a need for any adjustments around the governance and the relationships that are happening between the DHSC, Manx Care, and indeed, Tim Wood. And I think all three are very, very important relationships. And you seek to put in place immediately the changes that are needed to, one, allow people to ensure that they are capable of delivering the financial planning and financial management. Secondly, that they have got a clear mandate for service, delivery, and we all understand what services are to be delivered. And that must align with the financial allocation, budget tree allocation, financial planning, sorry. And the third element, of course, is the governance around that, the sharing of information and the complete understanding that this is not something that's done in isolation by Manx Care alone. They have a responsibility, it's public money that they're spending, and they've got a responsibility to engage properly with Tim Wood and their overseas, whether that be the DHSC or indeed any of the regulatory bodies that are overseeing their delivery. So is the governance good? Is the relationship between government and Manx Care in a good situation at the moment, or does it need bringing back into line? I think that we need to move quickly. I think that all of us, Manx Care, the DHSC, Tim Wood need to be receptive to understanding that there are issues that need to be resolved. As I said, it's not ethical to go to the public, raise taxes by 10%, put in £43 million of additional funding, and then turn around and tell everybody it just wasn't enough. There's £16 million overspent. That's completely unfunded. I don't know where that money's going to come from, presumably out of reserves, but even worse than that, it knocks on into next year's budget, and I can already tell you that over and above what's planned and what was delivered in last year's budget in terms of future financial forecasts is already going to be £20 million a drift. That's not funded, Ben. There is no income coming in to cover that, and that means that decisions have to be made, and difficult decisions have to be made. But my point is, and the difference is that Laurie and others just expect the taxpayer to pay more taxes through whatever mechanism whilst others, myself included, and many very much council want to understand that we have the proper governance, the proper mandate, and the proper budgeting ability before and controls in place, and that the organisation is capable of operating to a budget before we start having to go down further routes of increasing taxation or looking at ways to raise revenues to fund this growing and expansive healthcare delivery body, and just to add, of course, I accept all the issues of the ageing population and the demographics and all the pressures that are applied on health. We must not lose sight of our responsibilities also to make sure our finances are in the absolute best position for the future. Mr Hooper, as part of his conversation with Phil yesterday, he did touch on the issue of a motion of no confidence. It's something we heard. Mr Glover mentioned last week as well. He said he believes it is time for a vote. Do you at this moment feel you still have the confidence of the House of Keys? I've spoke to a number of my colleagues yesterday. They want to see this issue sorted out and resolved and for us to get on. Look, that's a matter of Tim Glover wants to get on with this. He needs to get on with this, but he does also need to stop destabilising the work of the parliamentary bodies and also the government as well. My focus today and for the next few weeks will be on getting this resolved. I've brought in a good team around me. I'll be engaging with Tim Wood colleagues imminently, I expect, and I hope later this week on a number of issues regarding this. I've just got to get on with sorting this out. You have to remember Laurie Hooper resigned and walked away from the difficulties that I've counsel and many others on the floor of Tim Wood and Chris Thomas and David Ashford and others that I've spoken to just want to get involved and get this resolved. And that's what my focus is going to be. Thank you for making it to the end of the Manx Radio newscast. You are obviously someone with exquisite taste. May I politely suggest you might want to subscribe to this and a wide range of Manx Radio podcasts at your favourite podcast provider, so our best bits will magically appear on your smartphone. Thank you. [Music] (gentle music) [BLANK_AUDIO]
