[MUSIC] Fan Morning Joe Sports time 5.9 in the fan bed at his prank gunning. All right, Civil War has me thanking. [MUSIC] Dubasites versus the non-dubasites. [MUSIC] And yeah, Leaf fans eventually will all get together not have to fight over, you know, who's the architect of this leaf steam or who to blame. There, that's the one, the case of Kyle Dubas. Here's what's, I think, unimpachable. >> Mm-hm. >> Leaf's are in a pretty good spot, gold-tending wise, would you say that it's not? It's not like a bad spot. >> Yeah, and a fine spot. >> And that is the responsibility of Kyle Dubas. Yeah, Brad for a living has not put his stamp on this team when it comes to the gold-tending. I think it's unimpeachable to say that the contract that he gave Joseph Wall, is it? Really, really smart one. He's under contract for under 800K for next season as well before he becomes a restricted free agent with arbitration rights. Ilya Sampsonov was a guy that kind of landed in his lap because he had some suitors and I think by all accounts he took less because he saw the opportunity to turn into the number one starter in Toronto. >> But that worked out for him pretty well. >> Pretty well. Yeah, you can quibble with the Matt Murray of it, but it also should be said that Matt Murray was part of the regular season that went pretty well for the Maple Leafs a season ago. >> Here's the most important thing about Matt Murray. Took the dive. >> Okay. >> Yeah, and Matt Murray is not hurting this Leafs team right now when it comes to his number, clearly, because he's on LTIR. >> Right. That's what I meant by that. I just meant he had an injury and he was hurt and there was no questions. >> I mean, guys don't volunteer to have unnecessary surgeries. >> No. >> No, they don't. >> I don't think anybody's questioning that Matt Murray was hurt to some degree. >> No, it just was curious that he was healthy at the end of the season. >> Yeah, and then not healthy. >> It's weird. >> I don't know. >> LTIR. What are you going to do? >> All right. So how do you view, if goal techniques, the most important thing? >> Sure. >> We all agree. It shouldn't be called hoggage. We called goal technique. >> Goaler. >> And I guess we have to wait for this to play out. But again, Ilya Sampsonov, better of the two goalies in the six game series against the lightning and Damian Cox is big on talking about how, hey, yeah, the Leafs lost in five games to the Panthers and pointing to the Sampsonov injuries reason why. I guess like there's a world in which he outdoals Sergei Babrowski in that series and the Leafs are overcoming the disappearance of their star players in it. Joe Vol is fine. >> The Leafs lost that series because they fell asleep for the first two minutes of the second period in game. I forgot two or three, whatever it was, and they never looked back and it was over from that moment. >> Awesome, Matthew said nine points and five goals in the series against the lightning. >> Yeah, him going goalless and that matters as much. >> That's right. >> I think. >> We'll have to see how this plays out. So again, we're talking about credit and who's going to be the guy that is viewed as the architect of this Leafs team, if they have success, should we not be leaning more in Dubas's corner considering the goal tending that he's put together for this team? It's still his goal, goal tending tandem and that's the most important thing, Brent. I want everyone to listen very carefully so they don't think I just blindly agree with any praise of Cal Dubas at any point in time. Did a good job selecting Joe Wall, but giving him the two-year contract at 800K, you get exactly as much credit for that as Brad for Living gets locking up Austin Matthews. It's like, good job. You signed a guy who hadn't done anything to an ELC that was going to take him to continued RFA years. He's managed to hit like, good job, but I don't look at this as some transcendent find. I'd love for it to turn out that way. It's yet to be proven. The dice roll on Ilya Sampsonov, yes, we can sit here and say it worked out and boy did it. They won a playoff series last year. What conversations were we having when he was dead and gone as an NHL goalie this year? >> And that was in the before times. You're right, and surely there's no way that guy can rear his ugly head again. I'm not saying it will happen. I am not ruling out that possibility either. So I think you give Cal Dubas a little bit of credit for where the teams act goal-tending wise. But I also think that much like I think some people look at Simone Bemwa and say, okay, how much credit does true Living get? He took a flyer on a guy and it's panning out really well. I think it's kind of a similar scenario with Sampsonov that there were many flyers to be had. He took and it's hit, but I don't look at that as some slam dunk win for Cal Dubas and his last, you know, final pieces of business as Leafs jam. >> Well, was factually win. >> Seven game series win. >> True. >> Or six games. >> Yeah. >> It only took six games. >> Close my eyes and see Tavares on the 1-me fist bump him right now. >> Mm-hmm. So now the Leafs are a normal team. >> Yeah. >> It's too far. >> Yeah. >> All right. Time now for our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley North Lexus.com. Today's insider, former NHL goalie, doing work now for daily face off and Leafs nation, Carter Hutton. How's it going Carter? >> Good, good, good, guys. I'm happy to be on. It's March break. So any chance I can get a little space for my kids here. It's very important this time of year. >> Anytime. If you want to come back tomorrow, we'd happily have you Carter. I'm in a spot where I just, so I was on vacation with my family, which was great. Like, just a week ago, they returned to school for one week and now they're back on vacation on March break, which is like, yeah, it's, I love my kids. I love them to death. But yeah, coming home at 10 o'clock, where it's normally my nap time and then, you know, needing to be entertained, it's not ideal. >> Yeah, that's a well, as I stare down at my painted toenails on my daughter, so this is, you know, I'm used to playing the NHL. Things have changed. Times are different, but it's a good different, that's for sure. >> Yeah. All right. Let's talk about this Leafs goaltending tandem. Like, if throughout the course of the season, given percentage chances on which goalie, I think will be the game one starter for the Leafs in the postseason. At one point, I had Martin Jones's more than a 50% chance of being the game one starter. Obviously, he's the third goalie right now, he's not in the equation. And Joseph Wall's returned hasn't exactly looked like the elite goalie that he looked like before the high ankle sprain. Ilya Sampsonov does look a lot like the guy that we saw throughout the entirety of last regular season and then into the playoffs in the six games against the lighting. Let me just ask you flat out, Carter, who do you think starts game one of the post-season? Is it Joe Wall? Is it Ilya Sampsonov? >> If it started today, it'd be Ilya Sampsonov, and I hate to say that because I am pro Joe Wall. It's just Sampsonov is dialed in right now, and he's playing very well. And for me, it's just the untimely goals right now from Joseph Wall. I don't think you have a lot of help last week against the Boston Bruins by any means, but there's a few goals in those games that he wants back. I did like his game when he first came back against Arizona. He played well, but we're talking about a game against Arizona here. That was a tough week last week for him, per se, but I also think he's only three games back from an injury, and a lot can change in that time. I also don't think we're very far removed from Ilya Sampsonov just taking an absolute turn for the worst at the start of the season and having a sabbatical. So for me, I love Sampsonov's body language as of right now and the way he's played, and you can't deny his last 15 games, right? He's 12 and three in at times. He's been protected. They've scored goals and they've done a good job, but for me, I don't think the increase is settled by any means. I still think there's a lot of hockey left and a lot of meaningful games. So I still think it's going to play itself out, but I think day one right now, if you had to pick a goalie to start at the Ilya Sampsonov. I agree with you. I've also been super bullish on Wall. I think the team has been as well. You just listen to everything they've said at most parts of the season. It seems like all things being equal, or honestly, even if they're not totally equal, Wall's a guy, they just do feel a little more comfortable in, but Sampsonov's been kind of undeniable right now. You mentioned you liking Wall, you have an uncomfortability there. What is it you see in him because it's been odd in that there seems to be a, I won't say a chasm because I think there's a big part of the Leaf fans that are confident and comfortable with Wall. But it's been odd to see a guy who has such limited NHL track record, and honestly, even limited American League track record, just because of the injuries where kind of universally, all of you guys like them. What is it about Wall that stands out for you? You know, for me, a little touch of like what I wish I could have did a better job of when I played the NHL. So I tend to be more like Sampsonov when things work going my way. I start to chase the game a bit more. I get outside my post. I'm kind of moving too much. I'm sliding where when you watch Sampsonov play bad or struggle early like he did in the season, those are tells in his game where when I watch him now it's crisp and he's shifting into pox instead of sliding. When I watch Joseph Wall, everything is simple. He lets the game come to him. He never overplays pox. And even when he's not at his best, he's always given himself a better chance because he's playing within the post. So it's really a simple concept to think of like, we'll just stay inside the post, right? Like I'm sure some viewers are like listeners are like, you know, why didn't you do that? It's tricky, right? He comes at you so fast, but Joseph Wall's schooling and the difference between him and Sampsonov is that alone is just his patience and poise and that's why I think so many people are high on him because he is still young, right? You're talking about he hasn't played a ton of games in the NHL by any means. So I think he's got 29 games in the NHL, but I also feel like he's very poise beyond his years, right? These are things that usually it takes time and maturity to get to where he's starting at a pretty good spot. So that's why I think you see majority of people see Wall and they look at him and it's almost like he reflects someone that should have more experience than he does. Yeah. And he's the future of the goaltending position for the Toronto Maple Leafs, just like factually because he's under contract for next season, and Elia Sampsonov isn't. And maybe they'd figure something out, Sampsonov does with the Toronto Maple Leafs, but it does feel like given their druthers, like all things being equal, they would prefer for Joe Wall to be the guy that takes the reins and starts game one of the postseason and leads them to greatness, because he's younger, because he's under contract and a good number for next year, it just, everything they've shown us, it leads us to that belief. And maybe it changes this week, Sampsonov's been very good, he was very good last Saturday or two Saturdays ago against the Rangers and didn't get the start immediately following that. Joe Wall got the two starts in the marquee games of the week against the Boston Bruins. Some things have changed since then, if they don't treat that position more as a meritocracy this week or for the next couple of weeks, is there a risk of like some internal discord there? No, I don't think so. I believe it's something that just comes with the position, right? Like these guys have played at different levels and been pushed and been a guy, been the back of it. It's something you have to learn to handle and manage. And I still see both these guys as like fairly young boys. I know Sampsonov's 27, Wall's only 25, but it doesn't have a ton of time. I think they've done a good job in the sense of letting him simmer in the American hockey league and be prepared for this step forward for Wall. And for Sampsonov, there's been such a knock on him, you know, over his career, whether it was, you know, the way he handled himself in Washington, his a little bit lazy at times. And I think frustrating to management because they don't just let number one go, he's walked out of organizations, right? There was a reason for that. There's a reason he went to arbitration and only got a year after the season he had last year, right? He was intimidated by signing him, so I think that's why you're seeing them want Joseph Wall to step forward and be the guy. Because there's just his character, his demeanor is just something that you want to have in your team. And as your number one goalie, not that Sampsonov won't have it, right? He's still 27, and there's maturing to do. There's a process. And there's always that cultural barrier. You come from Russia. It's a different scenario being in North America. But I think moving forward, having both goalies, going is the best thing to see you can have to push each other. Because at the end of the day, they're competing with themselves, let alone each other. So I think it's just going to draw the best of the Toronto Maple Leafs because in ethnic Atlantic Division, they're going to be in over their head as they come play off time. Yeah, you mentioned the cultural barriers there. It is as easy a transition anywhere in the NHL to Washington, though, if you're a Russian player, like they did have a few of those poking around. You mentioned the different kind of styles the guys have. I've always kind of looked at it. This is super simplistic, but Joe Wall is the guy with the higher floor. And Samsonov maybe right now at least possesses the higher ceiling. Do you think that one, you know, the thought I've kind of bandied around is last year's Leafs team maybe needed one style of goalie. And this year's Leafs team that gives up a little more and tries to go get a little more maybe needs a different style. How much of there is truth to that that, you know, maybe Ilya Samsonov is the right goalie for one team and Joe Wall is the right goalie for another. And it's not to say one guy's better than the other, but it's just kind of what they bring to the table. You know, I look at Samsonov and he feels like the guy who's capable of making five ten bell saves in a row if you need it, whereas Joe Wall is the guy who, if it's a little bit of a sleepy game and all of a sudden you need a big, big save, he's the guy I feel a little more comfortable and confident in in that scenario. Is there something to each of those guys would be the better goalie depending on which version of the Leafs team you're seeing? You know, I agree. And I think that comes with maturity in that where you are you're able to play under different circumstances. And right now I would agree with you that when it has been a wide open game and Samsonov has been absolutely rock solid and he's making these ten bell saves where at times it's like just the one you want back from Wall, where maybe when you get to a playoff game or a tighter fought game, Wall is the guy because he stays with it. And something I struggled with a bit in my career early on was how could I be the goalie when I believe my numbers were absurd when I had over 35 shots. But then it was games where I wasn't as busy, how do I manage those games where maybe you're not in it for ten minutes and they come down and get a score and chance and for me I always touch on the trade when Ryan Miller left Buffalo and came to St. Louis. You know, lights out, all star, you know, Vesna Trophy winner in Buffalo and he was playing well that year, comes to St. Louis who was a team that defended really well didn't give up a lot. He struggled with the transition, right? Because you go from staying in a flow and getting a lot of shots where if you're not in that rhythm and you don't have that maturity to fight through those times and it's more between your ears at that point, right? How do you stay in the game and find a way to, you know, stay focused and I think right now, Samsonov has that rhythm. I don't think Wall can't have that rhythm. I just think it's going to be a dogfight the last little bit of the year here to see you who really can distinguish themselves as a demo and go into playoffs. Speaking of your time with the St. Louis Blues, you spent some time with one Joel Edmondson, who's now a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs after the trade deadline. What do you think he's going to bring to the table here for the Maple Leafs as they try to win a Stanley Cup? You know, I think his game on the ice, there's not really a lot to break down. He plays a mean game. He is a guy that is going to make you pay if you come to the front of that. He does a great job on the penalty kill when he's on it. He's a guy that takes up space, can move pucks. And for me, what Joel creates and a lot of the bigger defense from that I played with in St. Louis, when we look at Simone Monlon, your team, Jake McCabe, I spent three years with, you know, the Bush cannot play with in Arizona, is they create more predictability for the goaltender in the defensive zone. Now, what I mean by that is when I was in St. Louis, you know, the game was much easier to play as a goalie. I knew, hey, you got this guy, I got this shot, you have that. And then when I went to Buffalo, for example, with a younger decor, more offensive, you end up being, you know, almost, you're just a fish out of water there, like, because the puck is moving so fast, it's unpredictable, knowing each time someone goes to make the play, they're not doing the same thing where with these defensemen you have now in Toronto, I would like to see them over the next few games create that predictability where this is the goalie shot. I have my guy and then, you know, then it's covered from there. And I think that's what Joel Edmondson brings, as well as off the ice, he's just a great guy, a great locker room guy, good person, someone who's low maintenance, you're never going to have to worry about. He's never going to rub anyone the wrong way. So I think it's a great add by them. I'm a big fan of Eddie. So I look forward to see him this place out. Yeah, he already endearing himself to all of Leafs Nation when he was in the building, but not in the lineup for the rough game against Boston last week, talking about how he was itching to get down there. You know, we've talked a lot about this team being a tougher team or one that sticks together more. They've shown it in spades this year, at least in spades compared to years past. How much do you think that stuff matters and how much is it just things we talk about because we can't just talk about goaltending and the stars coming through and it matters the most every single day? Like how much is that a positive sign for the Leafs that they were able to? And, you know, I know they lost the game. I don't need to reiterate it, but that they were able to kind of stick up for themselves and stand together there against Boston. You know, at times, the fighting, you know, the stage fight where guys at center ice, you know, gets the crowd into the game, but from a standpoint on the impact it has on the game, when you talk about players like Ryan Reeves and Bertuzzi and Domie and guys that are going to go and hammer guys every shift when it comes to playoff time or Jake McCabe or Benoit or Edmondson, Labushkin, these guys that are going to make it so hard come a playoff series, that's where it makes a difference for me is when you're going to see a team in a seven game series and every time that puck gets dumped in or every time you got to go and try to receive a retrieve of the puck in the offensive zone corner, you're getting cross-jacked or you're getting hit, it makes it hard on guys and not just over 60 minutes, but over a seven game series, that's where you still need to be big, you still need to be strong. Like Vegas did it last year with a big decor. I think it's something where the game is always a copycat lead, right? You're going to get teams that, you know, skill, it's got to be skill, it's got to be this and I still think there's an aspect of physicality that wears on guys. The playoffs are hard enough as it is. It's a lot harder when a guy's cross-checking you and running you into the boards every single time you're on the ice. So I feel like it can have an impact on it as long as you can still play. You can't be a liability. So that's where it's going to be interesting what happens with Reeves moving forward, but I love Reeves's game right now. He's playing well and he's a guy that can have an impact on a game. It doesn't have to be able to score sheet. Yeah, and just the fact that he's been able to kind of get over the start to the season he had. He's like, now he can kind of have the proper impact on his team. I mean, when he was dash a million through the first eight games of the year, it's kind of hard to be that voice in the room when the thing that's doing the loudest talking is the dashes that you have. This is a totally unfair question, but hey, if I can't put a guy on the spot on sports radio, I won't be able to do it anywhere. I'm giving you one game. You tell me you forget about the team in front of them. One game. It's a game seven. Which goaltender in the league right now do you have the most confidence in? And I think this is a fun question to ask because if I ask you again, forget seven days from now, seven hours, we might get a different answer. Right now, one game, game seven, who's the goal that you feel the most confident in? You know, I'm going to go. I'm not totally off the board by any means, but someone, you know, for me, that is so consistent. It had to be counter hell about. I just think I am so jealous of his game. I talk about simplicity. I talk about, you know what you're getting every single game, right? He is a guy that can just absolutely be rock solid, whether the jets have been brutal or the jets have been good. And that's based on that consistency. And if I can add one more guy, I just think if there's a guy that I need to steal a game, it's got to be Babrowski at this point. He has just been so good these last two seasons. His experience, you know, the two ends of the spectrum. So those are my guys for sure. Carter, we appreciate the time. Thanks for doing this, man. Hey, no problem. Thanks for having me on, guys. It's Carter Hutton, former NHL goalie and our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom visit Don Valley, north Lexus.com. He didn't go with the alias Amsterdam, despite the fact that he came through battle and has to future a Hall of Famer and Andre Vasilevsky, who also was on his list. But understandably so, this is like when that guy who got mad at us because we didn't mention it. I'm sure it's like, guess what? There's a lot of good goalies, guys. And now Carter Hutton, back to the spa for him. Yeah. You know, there are a lot of good goalies out there. There were some goalies that moved the deadline and the devil's getting a couple of them. But there's also a bunch of goalies and it looks like you're going to be available this offseason. Right? We saw the rumors and it didn't end up happening around Lena's Olmark and obviously Jeremy Swamann has to get paid this offseason as a restricted free agent. This is a guy that won a vasna trophy last year, although stubbed his toe pretty hard in the six games that he started against the Panthers in the postseason. I do have to say it warmed my heart to see some of a block of trade to LA. That was just, I love that for me. I just needed that. That was chicken soup for the soul right there. Seeing a guy, and I know it's like he's still in America and he's still in Boston. But seeing a guy go, "LA, no thanks." I actually think it might be the first time in NHL history it's happened. So he's available and you're right, like just factually was traded for except said thanks but no thanks. I'm good. UC Sorrows is not available, well I don't know, his availability this year is weird and the Predators went on that run to get into playoffs. We talked about it. It's the contractor, I don't want to do it price. You could have them. Yeah. You just have to overpay through the nose. This offseason I think they revisit that, headed into the final year of his deal where he makes five million bucks. Jacob Markstrom, not too pleased with the Calgary Flames organization. Mm-hmm. New. But he's still there. Um, his contract is for more money and for longer and he's older than UC Sorrows. But he's a very good goaltender. Hey, depending on what happens with Ilya Sampsonov this postseason, maybe somebody's going to be falling over themselves to sign him to a long, I don't think so, but like, I don't, I think it's probably a shorter term deal for Ilya Sampsonov. But this is an off season in which the most important position in the sport, you can remake that position. Yup, for, for, for anybody, including the Toronto Maple Leafs, there's a lot still to be decided here. I mean, that's part of the reason they want to see what they got in Joe Wall here, because if they're not comfortable with him being the starter going into next season, it changes everything. I think it's part of the reason Brad's living kept the biggest chips in his, well, you don't keep chips in your holster and keep bullets in your, in your chamber, I guess. It's the reason why he didn't go all in at the deadline. It just mixes many metaphors as I possibly can there. Well done. Because look at the teams he's built. He wants a goalie he can trust. He unlike the last guy and unlike many guys across the NHL, it seems pretty certain that he doesn't want to roll the dice on that position. And it's entirely possible Joe Wall comes through in a way that it doesn't feel like he's doing that. But if he's not confident, did he hold on to the first round pick so he can include it in a pick for a trade for a goaltender in this year's draft? Did he hold on to Fraser Minton? So he can include him in a pick for, or include him in a trade for a goaltender at this year's draft. I'm not ruling out that possibility at all. Look at the team's trees built. It is loaded on the back end and he generally pays a goalie that has not been the way things have gone here. And if you're going to do that, something's got to give can't pay everybody. Yeah. And is it a they didn't pay for a rental at the deadline this year? Is it a different deal if you're paying for a one year rental at the the draft in five million bucks of UC Sorrows and I mean, would you rather pay I don't know the idea of trading with the flames? It seems like it's it's it's far field that the flames are low to deal with the Toronto Maple Leafs. You did throw the idea of Conroy not never doing it just not right off the hop. And I don't think that's at all out of the realm and possibility. I just I really can't believe the lease went from having the GM that apparently like couldn't make deals with everybody and everybody had to win their trades against him to the one team with assets that you have a completely different GM who can't trade with them for a different reason. That was it. I don't know. That's yeah, the goaltending position is for Markstrom. It's two years after this one at six million. Yeah. So and not that this not that this whole more not that this holy matters for an org like the flames and he's older. He's like it's like six years old and he is older. He is older. He is got it in front of me here. He is 34 years old and he turned that in January. So at least he's a young 34, sure, just like me, but not that this matters a ton but it's not nothing. He does have two signing bonuses left. They're the only signing bonuses on the deal and it's two and a half million July, I should assume July one. That's when most of these are paid out. And then another one for the year after that, that's two and a half million. It's not it's not shouldn't predicate the flames decision on the matter, but it's not nothing either in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, it's nothing for the Maple Leafs. No, it's definitely nothing. That's pocket change. Hey, the money. It's the cap it that hurts the most. It's the finger thing means the taxes. As mentioned, blue rodeo hits Budweiser stage on Saturday, August 24th, along with guests Matt Mayes and begonia. And we are giving away tickets in today's show to enter for a chance to win Texan today's code word rodeo to 59590. Again, that is rodeo 59590 given away another pair of tickets tomorrow. But if you don't win with us, make sure you secure your tickets on Friday at 10 AM on ticketmaster.ca. When we come back, guess who's returned to the Blue Jays lineup? Vlad Amir Guerrero Jr. with his myriad of little nicks and bruises this spring is going to play in a great for league game today. When will that happen for Joey Votto? Last Ben Nicholson Smith next. As the fan morning show continues, Ben and his friend Gunning sports that 590 the fan. The best Blue Jays show out there, period, Blair and Barker, be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Fan morning show sports on 590 the fan, Ben and his friend Gunning. So I mentioned it in regards to Jose burrios and some of the guys the Blue Jays have targeted in free agency that being healthy, being able to answer the bell posting is a very important skill set when it comes to any professional athlete, but specifically one in major league baseball where you play every day by 162 games. Mm hmm. Brent. You may have heard this one. Best ability is your availability. I have heard that. So Jose burrios has never spent one fleeting moment on the injured list in his entire career. He throws a baseball, which like that just doesn't happen as not an actual full stop. Impressive. It like it's impressive that he's a baseball player and has never ended up on the I.L. Let alone a pitcher. Yeah. Listen, as a man who's now 40, but I play catch with my son, would you, would you say that you're a man and you're 40? I, I, I, I. Come after me. Exactly. God bless my gunny. Yeah. I, not the same kind of the same. I, I play catch with my, my young son. Yeah. And boy, I don't stretch it out correctly. I'm on the shelf. And no, daddy can't play catch because daddy's fingers are numb right now and that happened once. I want to talk to a dog. Yeah. I don't know. I just like shook it out. And like a couple of days later was like, Hey, I get the old Josh Donaldson dead arm from time to time, but not the finger. Fingers tingling. It's like that feels like a circulation. Yeah. No, I don't know. Pinch nerve. I don't know. Whatever. Uh, yeah. I, I've had my issues with my arm and I just playing catch with my eight year old son. So long toss it with the two of you that you could go through an entire major league career throwing fast balls in the upper nineties and not end up on the aisle is an impressive feat. That being said, so the reason I bring this up, I mentioned it going to break Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is in today's lineup as the DH for the Blue Jays as they get set to play yet another spring game who are they playing today? The pirates in Dunedin, but they, the pirates play in Bradenton. I know that one. This game is, you know, I'm really proud of myself and I know it was spring trading. So congratulations to you. I know Dunedin as well. More. Yeah. Ooh, Justin Turner at first base. Incredible. Yeah. I got to give Vlad the day off. Yeah, Vlad is the DH. So it must be said that, well, I've been disappointed with the performance from Vladimir Guerrero Jr. outside of 2021. And that's not to say he hasn't been good, but man, the expectations as the best prospect in all of baseball and the heights that he reached in that one season, it's hard not to be disappointed. What is not as saleable as this guy plays through it and he also posts and look at Aaron Judge in New York. And it is interesting that Aaron Judge had one of his most healthy seasons in the year before he became a free agent. But this is part of the Aaron Judge experience is that he spent some time on the injured list that you hope to get a hundred games at an Aaron Judge. And that's part of, that's part of what it is to pay Aaron Judge a bunch of money and just hope that those games that he's healthy for come at the end of the season into the post season. But Vladimir Guerrero Jr, man, that guy will play through some pain. And maybe that's, it might be in his best interest to not play through as much. And maybe the end of the season numbers look a little better last year if he in fact takes some time off. But Kudos to Vlad Jr, he plays through his Boba shed in large part. All right, let's talk to Ben Nicholson Smith of the at the letters podcast from Florida. How's it going? Benny. Hey guys, it's going great. Pretty quiet morning here at Bluejade camp and yeah, it's interesting times for this team and like you guys are just saying, this division. Yes, it is. We'll get to the Yankees of it all in just a second. So yeah, I just quickly Vlad back in the lineup today as the DH you've been kind of on this thing and the messaging has been pretty consistent that this is not a serious issue. And I guess when a guy's back in the lineup, got to take him at their word, it does feel like, yeah, there's almost like a parallel the Vlad injury quote unquote and the whatever Kevin Gossman is going through. It's like usually when you hear the team say, hey, nothing to see here. You get the little skeptical, but it does feel like there's no serious issue with either guy. Well, I almost would put them in two different categories. I mean, yeah, like, I don't think anything is serious, serious with either one, but we're flat junior. I mean, he's fine. Like he's, he's totally fine. It's not a big deal. Like he, I saw him out here yesterday, you know, he was in the, in the live BP that year ago Rodriguez was throwing and he looked completely comfortable. I mean, he hit a couple of rockets off Rodriguez, who looked pretty good, by the way. And you know, he was, he was his normal self, like he's, he needs a couple of days. It is the middle of March, this is not the time to push it. He's already had seven games in spring training and he'll get at least probably 10 more if he needs them. So he'll be fine. So not a concern there at all. I think with Gossman, there's no structural damage. No one's saying it's an injury. Gossman saying himself that he believes that, you know, he can be ready to pitch pretty soon. But you know, when you start mapping out the pitching schedule, it's going to be tough for him to break camp, but this team, that seems pretty unlikely. And I think even in an optimistic situation, he's probably missing a starter to, to begin the season and they have to probably start with someone else in the rotation. Yeah, I think, you know, the first someone else is, is Bowden Francis, Mitch White, also poking around there. You know, how much of it as well is just the nature of their relative positions, right? With a position player, obviously, there are certain injuries you would be more careful with. And like you said, this is certainly not the time to push anything, but you have to treat all pitchers with kid gloves to a certain extent, especially one that's going to matter as much as Kevin Gossman does to you. How much of the timeline is, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, belabor what you're saying here. The idea that it is slightly different injuries, but how much of it is just the kind of varying nature of their positions as well, Ben? That can figure in for sure. I still think like, yeah, because if you were to flip the injuries and you said, okay, Kevin Gossman has a bruised knee and Vlad Jr. has shoulder issue, then, you know, you wouldn't be worried about Kevin Gossman because players recover from bruised knees. Like it's fine. They're going to get better from that. And in the jammed finger, I mean, those things you know that they're going to get better in the course of a week or 10 days. In the course of shoulder injury for a hitter, for a pitcher, that's just a little bit more concerning. I hear that obviously, especially for a pitcher. So I think to some extent, it's just the injuries themselves. To some extent, it is the position where, you know, of course, for a pitcher, anytime you hear a shoulder, elbow, it's not great. And this is within that category of shoulder issues. This is probably on the less serious side because Kevin Gossman is throwing, he's throwing off a mound, but never a good thing when you use your shoulder for a pitcher. Yeah. It's better than what the Yankees are dealing with than the uncertainty surrounding Garrett Cole. That's a for sure. But yes, it's not ideal. You want everybody to be 100% healthy. So my understanding with Joey Votto is that there is what a minor league spring training game first for him maybe as early as today and then what into a grapefruit league game shortly thereafter. What is, I mean, what is the most likely root here for him? Because from my perspective and what I've read and the reporting that you've done, it does feel like, hey, Daniel Volgobock still probably cracks the opening day roster with this team and that Joey Votto has to go to Buffalo for at least a couple of weeks to prove that he's a capable enough professional hitter again. Is that how you see it? How do you see the next couple of weeks working out for Joey Votto? Yeah. So today the J's have the Tigers minor leakers coming over. And so we're about to hear from John Schneider in a little bit what the exact plan is for Joey Votto. He won't be surprised that Schneider tells us that Votto is going to play in that game. It could be a way for him to get into a game setting, ramp up a little bit. So we'll see what that looks like. And then I would expect that he's probably in major league games within a few days. You know, at some point, maybe into the weekend, that could happen for sure. And then, you know, at that point, you've got about eight, nine days remaining in spring training. It's conceivable that if everything goes really, really well, he could be ready. It's also conceivable that he might need a bit more time. And then exactly as you're saying there, Ben, then that could be, hey, we got to get Joey Votto to AAA to get him continue to ramp up. He's clearly open to that and he's clearly willing to do that. So then it becomes a question of who takes that other spot on the bench. And, you know, is that an earn equipment, is that a vocal back, is that a probably not a Spencer Horwitz, but there's some different ways that you could go there. And I certainly think that, you know, vocal back looks like a major league back to me. I mean, you've seen them take care of cold deep, we've seen them take left deep deep. You look at the production age, the numbers, the skill set, this is a guy who can hit majorly pitching for sure. What's that role though? Right? Like it's a pretty limited one. It seems like they do have a full-time DH, although he's playing first base today in Justin Turner. He's played some third base, is obviously a position to need, unless Isaiah Kinefalefa is more than he's been throughout the entirety of his professional career. Like what is the role of the lefty DH guy that the Blue Jays apparently are going to have rostered, whether it's Volgobok or whether it's Votto or whether it's Spencer Horwitz? Yeah. And it depends a little on who that player is, I think. I mean, if it were Volgobok, then it's a pinch hit DH role where, you know, against a right-handed pitcher, maybe you put Turner in the field, and then you're able to get that lefty DH champ. If you're facing, obviously, left-handed starting pitcher, that player isn't starting, but maybe he comes off the bench, faces a tough reliever late in the game, you pinch hit, and then you substitute a fielder in back for that player. So for Votto, maybe you're comfortable putting him a first base, for Volgobok back, almost certainly not. So it depends a little bit on the player and also on Turner's health because if Turner is able to go out there and continue playing the field, then you're talking about more flexibility with the DH spot. If Turner runs into issues of his own, and remember, Turner is pretty much the oldest remaining player, Turner and Votto are two of the oldest position players in baseball. Like they might be one and two this year in Major League Baseball. So if Turner needs some time, then there's a possibility that that opens up some DH at bat, and then that lefty is able to get in there and DH against some right-handed pitcher. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Just stick him with Votto. I know I'm kind of painting with a ride brush here, but I don't think either of you will disagree. You know, by and large, spring training results in games do not matter. It matters for some people, but for others much, much less. Are they hoping to see, you know, be it against Tigers, minor leaguers today, be it in great fruit league games from Joey Votto? I mean, you bring him in here with a base understanding of what he is, even at his age now, but it's also so hard when you're looking to see something from a player in games where we look at and say, yeah, the results, the stat line, you know, the slash line to a certain extent doesn't even matter. What are they looking for? What do they kind of need to see from him, not to break camp with the team, because that feels like almost an impossibility at this point, but just in general in camp leading into presuming start in the year at Triple A. Yeah, it's a great question. I think, you know, you're pretty confident in his base running, you're pretty confident in his defense. We're talking mostly about offense here. And so, you know, that means it's not about results, but I think, again, with Votto, you're also pretty sure that he has a really good idea of the strike zone, so you're not worried about him chasing, you know, O2 sliders off the plate. That's just not who he's been ever in the Major League. So really, if I was the Blue Jays, what I would want to see would be someone's coming after him with fastballs in his own. They're challenging him with heaters up, it's 95, it's 96. And he's timing it up. He's getting around on it. He's hitting it off the wall. He's hitting a liner into the gap, or maybe someone catches it. It's not the point whether it lands on the grass or not, but you want to see Votto, you know, not having to cheat to get to the fastball, you want to see him really comfortable in there, timing up all these different pitches, and just getting enough reps in, too, because it can't just be one game of that where, great, he turns around 95 a couple of times. That doesn't mean he's ready. You've got to build up just a little bit of reps before you're really comfortable putting someone into that game setting. JD Davis was released by the Giants, and he must have been fistmom, he's like, "I won my arbitration hearing." And then the Giants are like, "As a result of that, you will be released from your contract." So he's available. He played a bunch of third base last season. I understand the Blue Jays are, I guess, a money-in, money-out situation, if you believe Ross Atkins at his word, is JD Davis a guy that you think they will have a conversation about? Yes, I would think they have a conversation about him internally, at least. I don't know where that leads. You look at the bench picture right now, and it already is pretty crowded. I mean, some of this might come down to their assessment of a Davis Schneider, right? Because that's probably a similar role to what you'd be looking at from JD Davis, and it might also come down to their assessment of him as a defender. Because if you believe that JD Davis can play third base capably, then that might make him more appealing. If he's more of just a DH, you kind of have enough of those already. This is a team that's not short on DH-only types. When you think of a Turner, a Vlogo back, even Kirk on days that he DH is, right? Like there are a lot of guys on this team who are in that first base DH bucket. So JD Davis would have to give you something that your confidence is an upgrade. And I think that offensively, he could be viewed as an upgrade over someone like Santiago Espinal. They happen to share the same agent, so that's just a note to keep in mind. And yeah, I mean, Espinal 2 is fighting for a bench spot with Ernie Clemente. So there are a lot of moving pieces here, right? If Clemente on the team at Espinal's office, does that create a spot for someone outside the organization? I don't know. But ultimately, it is a very thorough, I can guarantee that they've already had conversations internally about JD Davis. Yeah, to me, like I'm doing my permutations and thinking about how the 26-man roster looks at the beginning of the season, I see Santiago Espinal on the outside looking in. And I don't think Ernie Clemente is going to put you over the top, but I'd be-- the difference between Ernie Clemente and Santiago Espinal is not-- I don't think it's the reason the Blue Jays aren't going to be in the playoffs because they wanted to hold on to Ernie Clemente and they didn't bring Santiago Espinal north, and that was the reason they lost a bunch of games at the beginning of the season. That was stupid. They should have prioritized winning over asset retention, but no, I'd be fine with Ernie Clemente making this team in Santiago Espinal at least starting the season in Triple A. I don't see a scenario where David Schneider is not on this team, Ben. I mean, partly because, you know, he can split time maybe at second base with Cav and Bijio. We know he's been working on his left field ability this offseason and during spring. And also, like, doesn't the 30-game sample at the Major League level last year mean something? Like, is there any scenario that David Schneider's not coming north of this team? Yeah, I think there are scenarios, and I think there have to be because she has options, right? Like, you know, and furthermore, it doesn't-- we're not talking about a season long since. There's no scenario where David Schneider doesn't get chances to impact Major League team this year. He will get those chances. He deserves them. That will happen. Out of the gate on opening day, keep in mind, too. The Rays have all right-handed starters, right? So you're talking about who do you want in that lineup coming out of the gate. Like, maybe you do want to go a little heavier with speed and defense and left-handed bats. David Schneider's a right-handed bat. You're probably not going to start him against Savali or Efland or, you know, Latel or Bradley or the guys that you're going to face. I mean, you might, but you might not. So it sort of depends on how things look. I think if the Jays were facing a team that had three left-handed starting pitchers, then there would be no chance that David Schneider wouldn't break camp because he's really been good in that role at the major league level. So, you know, I don't know-- like, last year this time, you know, we're talking about Auto Lopez and Nathan Lucas and how it's all going to unfold. And, you know, I just hesitate to speak with too much certainty about what will or won't definitively happen. I think there are a lot of things on the table. And remember that, of course, you know, the roster that they break camp with probably will shift within three, four, five days of the season beginning. Yeah. You know, it's a baseball season. There's going to be a lot of flux one way or another. I know that, you know, you never want to be too strapped down into one way of thinking and, you know, binary zero or one, but what happened to the master plan here? It was supposed to be a team where there was a lot of versatility and you were really banking on your defense. And, you know, all of a sudden, as we just-- as we've been talking about here, the team has like five guys who are barely DH only or, you know, DH in maybe another position here. Have they kind of done an about course on the plan they had? Do you think it's just kind of taking what the cards have laid out for them? What have you made of what seems to me like a little bit of a departure from how they initially planned to set this thing out with having a versatile team built on defense as well? Yeah. That's a great point, Brent. I think that's pretty accurate, right? Like you think about even you trace it back, like, I don't know, I guess it'd be six or seven years now to when Ross Atkins was first trying to make this team and he talked about we want to be younger and more versatile and more athletic and those are all great things to want in a baseball team. Those are attributes that some of the best teams have and that led to them pursuing a show Hey O'Connie and, you know, that's what you want. The Dodgers have a lot of that, certainly Atlanta has a lot of that. Those are great traits to have. Now you look at this Blue Jays team. They're kind of old, they're kind of slow, they're not as versatile and it's super interesting like it is low-key become one of those older teams, right, with Votto and Turner and, you know, even these young, young J's are getting a little bit older into their careers where guys like having Visio and San Diego after all are now late 20s as opposed to early 20s. And look, you can win like that. You're probably not going to win for five years in a row with that roster. In fact, you're definitely not, but it maybe can work for one year and if the J's are going to win anything this year, it's probably more than a 2013 Red Sox model and this definitely isn't a dynasty team that's going to win four in a row with this lineup because in four years, Justin, Turner and Joey Votto are 43 and 44. Yeah, we appreciate you taking time out of your visit to the Aviary to do this radio hit. That's cool. It's just all the Blue Jays hanging over them. Yeah, quickly. That's not what they sound like. We've got to go, but the Yankees appear to be in a bit a spot of trouble. And I guess we got to wait until we see the MRI for Garrett Cole, but Blake Snell still out there, man. I mean, is Scott Boris licking his lips here? Well, if you want to go deep conspiracy theory, maybe Garrett Cole says to stop Boris saying my shoulder's not feeling great and Scott Boris might say you have to get this checked out. You owe it to yourself. Your career is so important to you. You owe it to yourself, man, get an MRI. And then oh, by the way, yeah, hey, Brian, yeah, just to let you know, like Blake Snell still out there and you can get him, you know, it's only going to cost you 240 million. So I mean, just a bargain. So good. So I don't know. I mean, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that that's a, you know, a possibility. But look, I mean, the Yankees are the Yankees, right? Like they're a, they're a really good team. They're the best team in the American League East, one healthy. No question about that in the minds of the people that I speak to down here in Florida. They're better than the Blue Jays. They're better than the Rays. They're really good when healthy. But if you take away Garrett Cole and Aaron Judge, that totally changes the dynamic of the division. And at that point, they're getable. I mean, Cole and Judge are two Hall Famers. You take two Hall Famers in their prime out of that mix, even if it's for a few weeks or a couple of months or whatever the case is, that is a game changer. So everybody in baseball is very curious to see where those two injuries lead. Yeah, that'll be an interesting headline to follow Ben. This was great. Again, back to the birds. You go. Thanks, buddy. Yeah. I didn't realize they're so loud, but yeah, always get to talk to you guys and enjoy. See you buddy. Ben Nicholson, Smith, the at the letters podcast, formerly of trade rumors, MLB trade rumors dot com. So yeah, like very embedded back to his roots right there, like those conspiracy theory talks and like, yeah, that makes all the sense of the world. Of course it does. And a good job, Gary Cole, if that's what you're what you're doing, leading the Yankees of cash. I mean, but yeah, I mean, does he mean to does he need to make Scott Boris more money? Like why? Because he wore a Boris Corp hat before he was a free agent still. He gets his whatever 4% he's just that we want athletes who love the team and he does love his team. Yeah, Boris. Great point. I'm back to the fan morning show. Ben and his friend, Johnny, sports at five round event. Good morning. (upbeat music) (dramatic music)
