[Music] Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast at Skirks, the perilous drop-off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are Academic Nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a wallow and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Season 2 Rewatch. [Music] Hey, hello peeps and welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, this is Tori. And this is Rebecca and we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Season 2 Episode 8, The Dark Age. Which I still don't quite get as the title. Well, I think it's kind of alluding to that dark period of Giles' life. Okay. At least that was in my interpretation. I can't think of anything better than that. That seems reasonable. Okay, well, I have a very short summary for this episode. Lay it on me. Giles' past comes to get him and the rest of his gang from his youth because they played demon instead of guitar in their misspent. In their misspent 20s. Calendar gets the worst of it, leaving the future of their budding romance in Jeopardy. [Laughter] Yeah. Tough. I mean, this, being possessed by a demon, let's check out a little too real for calendar in this episode. Just wee bit, just wee bit. Yes. Yeah, what did you, what was your overall take on the episode? Yeah, I liked it. I would put it somewhere in the middle. It's, you know, we had very little of Angel. We had no spike. So I think though, we had some Cordelia and that's good. And so I liked having her, though they made her a little ditzy. Oh, ditzier than usual. I feel like they're making her a little more ditzy this season than last season. But anyway, so yeah, I just kind of put it in the middle. It was fine. It was fine. I kind of wanted a little, I mean, I still don't understand why Giles is called Ripper. And I don't know, I was sort of like, okay, so this was his misspent youth we've learned about. I don't know. Well, maybe a part of it. Although, you know, I wonder if Ripper, you know, they have that thing in England where they use a word as a euphemism for something else because it leads to it. Do you know what I'm talking about? Okay, I'm trying to, I'm trying to give an example and I just heard one the other day and I'm trying, but the one I'm trying to remember is from to serve with love. Have you seen that movie? Not that I recall. It's the movie that made me want to be a teacher, actually. Oh, wow. Sydney Portier. Oh, wow. And he goes to kind of a depressed area of London to teach. And those kids are always kind of ripping off words and they explain to him how they get to it, which really just still doesn't make sense to me, but I know it's something that's done in some parts of England. Okay. I just can't think of a good example off the top of my head because I don't remember the one. Sure. From something about a doc, I think. I don't know. Well, what happens to come to you? Maybe it will come to me, maybe it will come to me, but maybe it has something to do with that. Oh, it's a rhyming slang. So, you know, old fashioned coffee. It's not used anymore. It's just for the old people. Oh, it's a drag, sir. Frog means rosus, frog and toe road. Trouble in stride. Why? We can below pillow. You just use the first word, see? Now the old car and buns, sir. That's a son. Apples and pears, stairs. Have you killed still? Maybe, you know, we see in that one picture, he's playing a guitar. Maybe he works on his guitar. I don't know. Yeah. Could be any of the above. Well, it seemed like at one point, I thought Willow said, you know, after asking why did they come to you? Yeah. I was asking why did they call him Ripper and then she's like, Oh, I see like after he grabbed. That was Cordelia. Oh, Cordelia. Yes. Thank you. And I was like, I still don't get it. Yeah. Yeah, that didn't make sense to me either. Well, there's nothing there that he did that really made me think of Ripper. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, what do you, what's your overall thoughts on this particular episode and how it fits in? Well, I mean, I think it's another one of those kind of important episodes for a couple of reasons. One is that, of course, we get a little bit more background on Giles. And two, it's another lesson for Buffy in growing up that adults are human and they have passed. And, you know, sometimes those paths aren't full of virtue. Let us say, you know, people make mistakes when they're, I hope I don't find anybody, but I use this phrase a lot when we're young and dumb. I know when I was young and dumb, I did incredibly stupid things when I was in my 20s. But I think, you know, that's kind of kind of a, another one of her coming of age steps, right? I don't learn this. And I mean, I think on some level, people know it, but until it's like in your face, you don't really think about it in relation to the adults that you look up to and that are in your immediate circle. Like, I remember, don't ask me why because I don't remember why I went and saw this movie with my father, but I saw porkies. My dad. Wow. Yeah. And to this day, I really don't know why I was there with my father. We're walking out and he's like, wow, that really reminded me of high school. And I was like, what? Oh my gosh. He's like, I'm not going to give any details. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm horrified. Like, it's like, what in those moments, right? I was like, oh my gosh, what was my dad looking at me? Right, right. Well, I did like the ending of this one. It was like Buffy was comforting Giles and telling him the truth. Right. And last episode, she asked Giles to comfort her by lying to her. Yeah, I like that they did these two episodes back to back. Agreed. That I liked for sure. Yeah. I actually found that Rolling Stone, I think it was when the 25th anniversary or 20th anniversary of Buffy rolled around. They actually ranked all of the episodes. Oh, and this one was ranked number 53. So kind of right in the middle, like because there's like 144 episodes. So it's a little bit more on the on the upper side, but still in the middle there. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So, okay. Cool. Yeah. And, and they were using what did they use to rank. Let's see. To the top of the page, up to the top of the page. Oh, it was the 20th anniversary of the show ending. And they looked at how each episode moved the narrative forward, how it did with character development, how it tackled the core themes of the show. They just put in so much more. So I don't know what else they looked at. But, I mean, and, you know, I can see why this one's in the center. It does get some of those things. I'm curious of, do you happen to know what is the highest rank one we've seen so far? I don't right now, but I could level. Let's see. Let's go. I'm just kind of curious. I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that. No. No. I was wondering about that one where we find out about angels passed. Right. All right. So we're not in the one to nine. There's nothing that we've seen yet. Let's see. Let's look at the next list. So far. There's several that are coming up. I mean, there's a lot that's coming coming up in season two. And it's nice season three. Very cool. Well, last week's episode lied to me is ranked number 14. Wow. I'm that surprises me. Well, you did say what a formative. Yeah. Yeah. Episode. You felt that was. And that seems to be one of their criteria. Like you said, moving the plot around, move along, moving the character development. Mm hmm. Yeah. That is them. That's the highest one so far. Okay. Yeah. I think I'll try to remember to look this up. Yeah. I like this idea. So, and maybe it was kind of fun. It's kind of fun to see what we think versus what, you know, you don't. My first impression. Now, I don't have the full cannon in front of me, but I can at least compare to the things so far. Yeah. Yeah. Now, it's interesting because here's what they wrote about lied to me. It's sometimes the very best episodes aren't about the wider season art. Or the big bad, the Scooby's on a collision course. Oh, that's weirdly phrased. They're just episodes about how hard life can be. And they say lie to me is a devastating example of this about recognizing the bad guys. I think they missed the main point of this particular episode. Because they say about recognizing the bad guys aren't always the monsters and the shadows, but sometimes the people who stand in front of us. So, yeah, I think they kind of missed some of it, but surprisingly figured out it should be high. Although I'm surprised I would not rank it that high at all. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, anyway, I thought that was interesting, but I think I'll bookmark this article and come back to it. Yeah, please do. And maybe what I was look at the ones that we've already watched and see where they rank and I like that talk about that at another, on another episode. I like that. I'll be interested with the bottom 10 are. Yeah, I think we've probably seen a couple of those. All righty. Well, this beginning, I was certain that that like metal briefcase was going to have something to do with this. Yeah, nothing. We never saw the case again. Nope. Nope. Yeah, you would have thought. Okay, I'm sorry. I just was scrolling down that article. Teachers, which we all know is one of the episodes I really like the least number 140 out of 144. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so is that the lowest ranked one we've seen? Yes. Okay. That's cool. That's cool. Okay. So we have seen near the bottom of the bottom, but really haven't seen the top of the top. That is true. Okay. That is true. Okay, I'm going to close that article out. So I stopped looking at it. I was excited about this episode because I think it's one of the first times, or at least one of the earliest episodes that Marty Noxen gets involved in and she starts out as a staff writer, but then it really takes on producing roles and things like that as the seasons go on. So that's exciting. That is cool. And you'll start to see her name come up more and more and more. Okay. So anyways, I just thought I'd throw that in there. I was like, what were you saying before I got a self track a little bit? Oh, just that I thought that briefcase was going to have something to do with something and it was a total red herring, never again. The guy and D DRA barely had anything else to do either. But anyway, which guy? The guy. Well, I mean, we, we see more of them. The one that gets to dear dread turns. What was his name, Phillip, Phillip. Yeah, Phillip Henry Phillips just to conduit. We don't really learn about Phillip as a person. That's right. There's no development of them at all except we know that they were part of this group that. I don't think they worshiped. I gone. It's like they used him as a drug. It's like they used him to get high. I actually wrote down one place. I don't know where it is in my notes, but I'm like, I got and starts with the E like ecstasy. Yeah. So he's their E. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they should have done ecstasy instead. Yeah. I think there's this seems like a really, really bad move. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I did. I got to laugh about the pearls that D DRA was wearing. I noticed that as well. I was like, okay, zombie-ish because at this point, right? It just looks like a zombie. We don't know anything about I gone. I was like, wow, pearls on a zombie. High class. High class, Buffy. I thought we were seeing another of like that mummy princess who needed to keep sucking life force out of people that she aged so fast without more life force, but I guess it was just kind of their demon look. I don't know. I didn't understand quite all the calculus in the demon situation, but we'll get into that as we proceed. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you want to talk about next? Let's see. Well, I just want to give a quick nod to this custodian. Okay. I does he, does he appear anymore in the show? Does this custodian have any other role? I need to remember. There's one other, I would say that I know where we, the custodian comes back into play, but I don't know if it's the same person. I mean, it is my experience that custodians do know everyone and know where everything is. Yes. I don't think it's the same person that plays this custodian in later season. No, he's just in the one episode. I'm on IMDB. His name is Michael Earl Reed. Okay. So, you know, character, actor, background actor. Yeah. So there's a no. Yeah. Well, I just, he kind of had a little role here. It's a little bitippy and I thought maybe we'd see him again, but weirdest library door ever. I don't think there was external access to the library at my school. Maybe an emergency door or something. I mean, you know, it seemed like it was night. Yeah. Saying that they were in the library at all. Right. But the reason they couldn't hear the pounding was because of Buffy's Robics music. Yeah, I do have to say I'm with Giles on the assessment of Buffy's music. Yeah, I don't know what that noise was. What is he talking about his brain dripping out of his ears or something at some point? Mm hmm. I'm like, yeah, no. Yeah, it's, I mean, I can understand why they would be doing that at night. Because you don't want the rest of the school to be going, uh, why has Buffy Summers working out in the library? I'm not sure why she has to be working out at the library. Does Giles need to watch every. Yoga routine and aerobics thing and jog that she does. Evidently that answers. Yes. Evidently. Evidently. Evidently. It must be in the watch your handbook. You must watch every single workout. This layer does. Yeah. Make sure there's a balance of aerobics and strength training and weaponry. What you're gonna call it strategy. I guess those are the four things the slayer would need, right? Aerobics. Strength training, strength training, weapons training and strategizing, learning how to do strategy in the heated moment. Mm hmm. I don't know why I just did the beep beep beep beep thing. And I actually, you can't see it, but I had hand motions too. But I'll imagine it. Yeah, you can imagine it. So we have Deirdre sort of melt away, transferring in to fill up. Mm hmm. The green goo was very X files. Oh, I wonder. Oh, yeah. And the X files at this point would have already done the green goo from the aliens. Nice. Nice. I'm doing, I've been been gene. Yeah, X files while I'm here at the hotel. So very cool. Yeah. So my next note is what kind of hippie demon crap is Giles dreaming? So do you think there's a blonde guy that's kind of featured in the dream? Yeah. You think he's the one that died that couldn't control it that Giles tells us about later? Oh, maybe I thought it was supposed to be Giles. Oh. Because I mean, think about that picture that they show. Yes. Yes. It looks pretty light. I think it's supposed to be Giles. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I was like, what is this? And, and Charles was in his jammies. Yes. It's the first time we see inside Giles as a place. It's the first time I recalled seeing inside his place. I'm not going to say that that is for sure true. I think it's definitely the first time we've seen in his bedroom. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, he's going to need a bigger bed. Yeah. Yeah. It looked like Giles has like a Tiffany lamp. Yeah. It's pretty. I like that lamp. It's a little, it's a little, it's a little too much for me, but I can see how it's a beautiful thing. I just think it's a very kind of ornate thing. I think that's supposed to, is it, I mean, I don't, are they trying, I don't associate Tiffany lamps with Britain. Are they from Britain? I have no idea. I mean, maybe it's supposed to represent his fussiness. I don't know. A few moments later. Tiffany lamp. Okay. Designed by Lewis comfort. Tiffany and colleagues. Part of Art Nouveau movements. First exhibited in 1893. Hello. Can you New York? So yeah, I don't really associate those. No connections. Yeah. I thought they were made here in the US. Mm hmm. I don't know why they put it in there. I don't even know if it's a Tiffany lamp. I just, it just looks like maybe looks like a Tiffany lamp. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? then we get into a rousing game of anywhere but here. Anywhere but I had to look up a couple of the people they mentioned. Of course I had to look up the only one I didn't have to look up was John Cusack. Exactly. I was excited to hear that Gavin Rosdale was from Bush. I loved that band. I never really got into them. Oh, I totally did graduate school. I listened to them so much. If somebody said, "Hey, I'll give you a million dollars." If you can name one Bush song, I'd be out a million bucks. Glycerin. Okay. You $1 million. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And then Amy Yip, basically Hong Kong porn star. So I was like, Yeah. Where would Xander get his hands on? Yes. And it sounds like he's got a consistent crush on her. But I absolutely, I mean, willows was perfect. I'm in Florence, Italy. I've rented a scooter that's parked outside. I'm in a little restaurant eating ziti. And there are no more tables left. So they have to see this guy with me and it's John Cusack. Oh, yeah. I mean, traveling, check. Yeah. Eating delicious food. Yeah. John Cusack. So I pick willows hands down. I don't need the guy from Bush who's not even the lead singer rubbing my feet on the beat on the beach. Well, you don't even like to get pedicures, do you? You're correct. I don't like to get pedicures. I don't like to lay out on the beach. And I would have picked another guy from Bush who I don't know his name either, but he's the lead singer. Uh huh. Yeah, I was wondering, who would I pick? And I was like, why are you wondering? You know, exactly. I know exactly who you'd pick. You know exactly who you'd pick. America's ass. America's ass. For sure. Where we would go would be the big question, because there's lots of different places I would like to go with America's ass. Yeah, I think you'd let him pick. I think you'd just be like happy to be there. I'm with you. We can do pretty much anything. Anyway, oh, okay. Fair. A lot of sports things, no. Fair. Okay. But you'd probably, if, if you got to sit next to Chris Evans at the, uh, rugby game, you'd, you'd say yes. Come on. I thought you were going to pull in the monster trucks again. Oh my gosh, that would have been good. That would have been good. Yeah, probably, probably. I'd probably just be like, sure. I mean, I would, I, same would be true for me. And you could pick a variety of people, Benedict Cumberbatch, Tom Hiddleston. Tom Hiddleston, yes. Oh, for sure. I think that's probably. Jeremy Irons. Oh my God, Jeremy. Some of these people are back in the day, but yeah. I mean, he's still Jeremy Irons still. Yeah. The guy you brought up last week. Chris, I know he passed away now, but he would have that too. But I was thinking of somebody we were talking about a little more recently who played Malfoy, Lucius Malfoy. Oh, Jason Isaac. Yeah. I guess it was just a couple of days ago. But anyway, yeah. And my gosh. Oh, no, I'm not going to remember his name, that they just found his body in California. He'd been hiking. Do you hear about this? No, this just couldn't happen. He was in room with a view. Blonde. I'm not going to remember his name. Anyway, he's also cute or was. Sadly, Julian Sands. You hadn't heard this. He's been missing. He's been missing for like a couple of months. Holy cow. I, of course, absolutely love Julian Sands. And how did I not text you about that? This doesn't surprise me that you like him. Yeah, and I like him. And I just, that was so tragic. And I had heard about him missing. And that was a while ago. And they finally found him. Holy cow. I had not heard anything about that. It didn't show up in any of my social media feeds, or maybe it was just on some days I didn't look at it. That's crazy. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Don't hike alone, folks. Bring a buddy. Yeah. At least on the, at least on the trail around here, if I keel over, there's going to be 10 people walking by me in two minutes. If you've seen room with a view, you'll understand that. But yeah, speaking, speaking of room with a view will be. We'll talk about that later. When, when speculating which, which Forster book. Yes, yes. This is the first edition. I'm sorry. I'm just so stunned. My brain is like, just processing. It's like the rainbow circle on the map. I like it's that process. Okay. Yeah. All right. Gone too soon. Oh, gosh. I mean, yeah. Wow. 65. Okay. Okay. So we just go, wow. And you'll know what it's about. Okay. Okay. Okay. Does Willow really need extra credit? I mean, what the heck? I know. But you know, a lot of times it is the students like Willow that like, you had an extra credit I can do. 100%. It's like you've already gotten a plus. What do you want from me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't want to get into that. But anyways, yeah, I always find a lot of students that are doing really well. Like, yeah, that's a credit. I'm like, why? Why do you want to do extra work? And then students who do ask for extra credit, who actually could use it. I'm like, why don't you do the work that's assigned to you? There's, you know, there's an easy way for you to get better grade. Just do the work that's assigned. Yeah. Instead of creating extra work for yourself and extra work for me. Yeah. Yeah. No. Anyways, wow, I'm sorry. I know what you're thinking about. Yeah, you're going to have to look into it afterward. Oh, I skimmed an article while we were talking. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So yes, I had kind of an interesting revelation here when we were talking about this, when Giles and calendar were talking about the first edition book is I was like, Oh, yeah. What did Forrester write? And so I was looking up Forrester. See, I always thought I know I always thought it was EM Forrester. I was yes. I, so I believe they were talking about EM Forrester. And I thought it was EM Forrester. Right. So I looked up Forrester and what did you say? C, C, C, S. And that came out up and I'm like, no, no, no, that's not right. I think it was EM. So then I put an EM Forrester and it came back EM Forrester. And I, I have just always, I've just always said EM Forrester. I really thought that that name was spelled differently than it was. But don't you think it's EM Forrester that they're talking about Forrester that they're talking about? No, I actually don't see a Forrester Horatio Hornblower. You think that that's what they were so excited about? You don't think it was maybe passage to India or room with a view or Howard's end? Well, I was thinking, you know, Giles's dad, because he got the book from his dad. And of course, we don't know anything except that, you know, he probably were allowed to tweet as well. I mean, that's a supposition of my part. But yeah, I was like, Oh yeah, Horatio Hornblower. I could see that. But because I mean, she's specifically said Forrester book and he didn't correct her and say, it's Forrester, which you know, Giles would do. Well, I wish I wanted, I did not freeze the pain with the book. It sort of looked like it was clothbound or something and tough to see. And maybe the title was only on the spine. But I might have to go back. I would prefer to do that right now. But I'd have to disconnect my VPN and it would cut you off. So no, that's that's fine. But I just was sure that because even when you say Forrester, I kind of still hear Forrester. So I thought that maybe Callender was just saying Forrester and she sounded like Forrester. Yeah, I mean, either one of them would be appropriate for Giles. But how can she describe it? I thought she said something about it being either poignant or I don't know. Let me see. Forrester. I found a site somewhere that actually has transcript of the scripts. Oh, well, this is. But could they be also confused? That's true. I mean, all this time, I thought it was EM Forrester. I'm not sure I only asked you which one you thought it was. So. Well, you have the answer. Yeah, let's see. Okay, here we go. They've got Forrester written in the scripts. Okay, well, but I mean, I've never read Horatio Hornblower. She does say, Jenny says, yeah, it was so romantic, so evocative. That's Forrester. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd apply that to. You know, it's Horatio Hornblower really romantic and evocative. I mean, freaking a passage to India. Howard's end. Right. Yeah, I think it's Forrester. Well, based on what Jenny said, then yes, I would probably go with EM Forrester. Yeah. But of course, the spelling they've got in the script is CS Forrester. But do they say CS? No, it just says Forrester. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you what. Yeah. I think I will. I am going to see if I can get a better look at that book, though. I really don't think the title is on what we saw. But oh, it's even having a correct book. Because when I put the name in it, I saw her and I was like, Horatio Hornblower. That can't be right. Wait, what's the C? Yes, instead of EM? And anyway, it was a whole, it was a whole revelation. And apparently, I own nothing by him or I would know this answer. And in fact, I am not sure. I have read any of them. I just think I've seen the movies. Yeah, I've never read any of them. Yeah. Well, it's a period of writing. I'm not really too into the novels of that time. For some reason, I just find them really hard to get through. I'm a little surprised. I haven't read Howard's End, which how with how much I loved that movie. Yeah. But anyway, time to remedy that. Yes. Yes. And at least I'll know the correct author's name spelling to search for. Well, I've never read Horatio Hornblower. Maybe it is romantic kind of. But that's not what jumps to mind. I think Horatio Hornblower. I think, you know, colonial English Navy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I, and come on. Yeah, I, I think they were similarly confused. And I'm not really sure. I've seen it written, you know, or I certainly haven't internalized it. I've, I've definitely heard the name E.M. Forster. A lot more often than I've seen it. Yes. And I still, when I say Forster, it still sounds like Forster. Forster. Forster. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. On with the show. Yeah. Jenny's clearly I went down. No. Yeah. Yeah. You did go down the rabbit hole, didn't you? Oh, big time. That hole was deep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was just gonna say Jenny's cute in this scene. She's her saucy little self. No doubt. And she is pretty much promising Giles. He's going to get some this weekend. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiven for pretending to have destroyed them. I mean, I knew from when she said dog-eared pages that she was pulling his leg. She knows him too well. Yeah. She does. I did. I have to say about this point in the, in the episode, I started thinking about what Jenny represents in this terms of female empowerment. I don't know why it popped into my head because right we see Buffy as a female taking ownership of the power that she has. And we're starting to see Willow really taking pride and ownership of her intelligence. Yes. And so Jenny, I really see as this woman who's taking control of her sexuality because I don't know, maybe it's just how it's portrayed in movies and television and so forth. But in the stuff you watch from the 60s and 70s and even some of the 80s, women weren't subtle in any way, right? It was now we've got this freedom. Boeing were in it. And what I find with Jenny is she's totally in control of her sexuality and she has a subtlety and humor about it that I think is really cool. Oh, I love that. And I love her job, right? She's computer in the 90s when it was pretty much dominated by men. I love that you mentioned this because if you'd asked me what Jenny represented, I was like she is a kick-ass woman in STEM. And yeah, and a computer programmer and cool and goes to do monster truck stuff. And, you know, where's cute little outfits and, you know, just breaking all sorts of walls there. And so I love that she is in especially at the time a field you would expect, you know, stereotypically male dominated and was I mean, those were just backs. Yeah, it was even today it's still dominated by males. So those were the numbers. So and yes, pointing in hopefully somewhat of a better direction. But I just love that. And when we were in the computer lab, there was some computer programming written on the whiteboard behind her. I couldn't really make a whole lot out of it. But so yeah, yeah, I well, we both love counter. And I am going to be interested to see what's next because she has a real blow in this episode. Yeah, she does. Which I hate. I hate it. I hate that this happened to her. Because it's not that she's just upset with Giles. She's very shaken. Understandably, I mean, I'm not saying she's a was. I mean, this is a horrific thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. All right. I have a question for you. Okay. Thank goodness. I have never had to do this. But when you go to identify a body, do you really think it's necessary to take the sheet all the way down to the waist? I don't think they do that. I think they just pull it back to see the face, right? Or if there's maybe like a tattoo on the arm, they want them to check out, they might show the arm. But I don't think they pull everything down like that. No, that was that was ridiculous. Yeah. That was ridiculous. I was like, how are you going with that? Yeah. Yeah. This is unnecessary. I don't know. I mean, that's just my guess. I've never had to do it either. Thank goodness. Yeah. That's me knocking on wood. Yes. But I would think they wouldn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that just I'm less than work attendant is a real sadist. I mean, I've seen on some crime shows that it's not even you go into the same room, like you might be behind glass or something, certainly not pulling them out of the body refrigeration. Yeah. But maybe family ID is different than Hey, there's here's this bloke that we found outside your library. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't know he was going to know him, but I mean, he did have his name, but whatever. Yeah. So yeah, that's all I had for that scene. But we soon find out he's alive. Yes. Yes. I thought it was odd that the work attendant was checking tote eggs. I mean, what do you have to make sure everybody's still there? Maybe they do in Sunnydale. I thought the same thing. What does he need to check and make sure the bodies are still in there? It is exactly. I mean, I was like, are you kidding me? But it turns out to pay off because one of them isn't there. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. Did that happen in this scene or did that happen a little later? Was that this scene? No, no, this was just when this was just when when Giles was going in and identifying the body. This is before because I have some other things to say about that morgue attendant. We got to go back a bit. Well, yeah. I mean, because we see this is after Giles identifies the body. It's after the library scene and so forth. And then the scene after it is when they're back in school and Buffy shows up at the computer lab. Okay. Well, why do I have the the drug deal blood situation? Well, I think we might have skipped over that a little bit. Okay. Can I go back to the the blood? Yeah. So this whole blood thing, I've got so many questions. And this is this is where I said, this is the most drug deal looking blood delivery ever. Unmarked van. Did they flash the lights to signal like on this? This is how you know, the blood deals going down. And like the bags were just in like an igloo hicknic cooler. Well, that I can imagine. I can it is the it is it is the chain of all of these things together. I mean, the van is like, it's like a tan van without windows. I mean, and obviously it's totally sus. I don't I just I just don't understand how any of this happened and why the doctors, I mean, were vampires and what I I don't understand anything about how this this happened. And clearly, angel and Giles need to communicate more because they could be teaming up. Yes. Yeah. Like everybody knows that blood delivery is on Tuesday or whatever. And so anyway, I was just I was just laughing through the whole scene. And I just I really was like, I was ready for somebody to yell out blood delivery. Yeah. So I was like, dang, those vamps are in a convertible. Nice. You know, the one vamp after the van drives away. Oh, yes. And that one vamp comes up the convertible. Yes. Yes. And who knew the vamps were hot doctors? I mean, any sense. And then he's like, uh, uh, angel, could you get this to the right people? Where even are the right people? Why was this done in the back alley here instead of going into the main entrance of the hospital? Anyway, so many questions, but yeah, we got to we got to see. I don't know. Maybe they don't do blood deliveries and through the main entrance because it might freak people out. Oh, it's just a little cooler. And I mean, I definitely have, you know, I think harvested organs get put in coolers as well. But I don't know. I don't know. It's not like it was bags of dripping blood. I mean, it I don't think it anyway. I don't know how blood is procured and shipped, but I do not think this was representative. Probably not. Probably not. All right. That's all that's all I had to say about lung delivery. Okay. All right. But then then we go to Giles's apartment. Yes. And Giles is acting sus. Deirdre is DED. And Giles is hitting the sauce hard. He is. I was trying to figure out what he was drinking, but I couldn't quite read the whole label. But I think we know it's hard liquor. Yeah, whiskey or scotch, I would imagine for for an Englishman like that. But now, did you look at the names on his list? I did. Okay. So I've got Philip Henry, Deirdre Page, Ethan Rain, Rupert Giles. But the first one was Thomas Sutcliffe. So where the heck was Thomas? Well, I think he's already dead. He's the guy that I assumed had first, you know, we learn later that somebody's not that's Randall. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's Randall. And I was wondering Thomas in this episode. Exactly. And we don't see Randall's name on the list. Yeah. So he already knows Randall's dead. So I know, but Randall is crossed off. So I thought he well, that's fair. But anyway, he was crossing off the people who were dead. And so this Sutcliffe, maybe there was a little bit of the episode that was cut out because I was looking, I was looking and I was like, was it Thomas Randall? And Randall was the last name. But you saw it clearly a Sutcliffe. I had the glasses were kind of over and I had a hard time seeing it with the freeze frame I did. But it was but Randall is the boy who died. So Thomas Sutcliffe is a bit of mystery. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then, then Buffy shows up. I mean, she's the one person in the gang who was not invited into computer tutor class. But but Rupert was home alone drinking. Now, will I don't drink? I don't drink a lot. I don't drink a lot at home alone. But been known to have a glass of water. Yeah. Getting blitzed on hard liquor, maybe not. But COVID. Yeah. Fair. All bets off on that. All bets are in coat pandemic. They really thought this was horrifying. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know that we should be casting the charge judgment judgment on this. But we've come to my trivia question. Okay. So Giles, I'm not Giles. Xander tells a little story here. And my question to you is his story is about Uncle Rory. Yeah. And what was Uncle Rory's profession? He's a taxidermist. Very good job. Good. Yes. I can't remember if I have a trivia question. I actually looked back at my notes because I didn't think of one wall. I usually sort of keep an eye out. And I got to the end and I was like, I didn't see anything to grab my attention. So then I just kind of went back and tried to look at a detail I wrote to. Well, you know, the posters and the books and the flyers are getting old. Yeah. So I was trying to think about new stuff. And I don't really know how to do trivia on the other stuff. So I might not have one this time, but we'll see. We'll see. It's fine. Figure one out, but it's never like Xander get over it moments when Buffy walks in and he's like, am I dreaming? Yeah. Are they fall asleep already? Yeah. So come on. We get it, Xander. Yeah. We got it after the first couple of episodes in season one. So let's just move on now. Yeah. It's so year later. So Cordelia indicates about the police a little important nugget about why Giles might not be himself himself right now. You know, I was surprised, you know, when Buffy rushes out of the computer lab, why didn't Jenny go with her? I mean, it is her boyfriend after all. Yeah, he was planning on having sex with that night. Right. Right. I was like, go. What are you doing? But doesn't Buffy go to the library? She does. But wouldn't I mean, I would have gone with her, right? I would have wanted a phone call myself. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I actually thought Buffy was going to go to Giles is so I was surprised that she went to the library. Yeah. And I got to admit, I didn't recognize Ethan. I did not know it was custom costume guy. And I thought he looked younger than he did in season one. Maybe he had a little dye job on his hair or something. Oh, I'm surprised you couldn't. You didn't recognize him. Not that you couldn't, but you didn't. I mean, as soon as they said it, I'm like, Oh, yeah, of course, but I'm glad they said it. Yeah. And I didn't. Maybe just because of course I've seen it so many times. It's. Yeah. Well, I appreciated the that they streamed that together for me. I loved when Buffy punches him in the face. Buffy punches him in the face. Cordelia gets him in the nuts later. Yeah. I was like, we're Ethan, Maddie. I don't feel bad for him at all. He deserves it all. I like the character. I like he was a character because I mean, even though he's not really does have a ton of screen screen time, we know some things about him, right? It's true. So he's got some decent character development for the short bit of time. You know, he was into the Egon culty thing and excuse me, I think it's I gone. I got I'm sorry. Did I say Egon? I think I said I got earlier. I knew I was going to get some point. It's I gone. Yeah. I remember having a conversation with myself. Don't say Egon. Don't say Egon. I think you're thinking of Egon or Eor. All could be could be. Anyways, last my train of thought. One, two, three. What was I talking about? Oh, I like Ethan because again, we find out he was part of that. So clearly, he's ready to believe in in things. And of course, we know that from season one, or I'm sorry, not season one from the Halloween episode that he's into the occult. Yes. And he's like a total coward. Yes. Yes. For the little bit of time that he's on screen, we get to know a little bit about him. I appreciate that. He's not smart me. He's real smart ass. Yeah. And a real self-preserver. Oh, yeah. Self-preservation, my name is Ethan Rain. Well, we've actually talked about everything I want to talk about with Ethan here. Yeah. Okay. I mean, we already mentioned it because I love when Cordelia needs him in the balls. Good kit Cordelia. Aging Philip arrives on the scene. Luckily. Oh, yes. Luckily, the library has a jail, but apparently that jail needs a little bit of reinforcement. Yes. Maybe the vampires. Maybe the vampires did a number on it. Back when it was used last. Yeah, it sure didn't take him much to break out of there. Well, it's like they didn't even close the door. Yeah. Right into Jenny. Oh, right into Jenny. And apparently you can either be dead or unconscious in order for the demon too. And you know, I couldn't really understand. Like they used to have I gone go into them all the time and they didn't turn into puddles a goo and die. I don't quite get what's going on here. How this possession and it certainly didn't seem like this possession was euphoric. I don't know. I didn't quite the connection between this demon now and how they were messing with him when they were using him as a drug. I just didn't get that. Well, I think maybe explained a little bit when Giles is telling Buffy about it. You know, he said Randall lost control. Yes. I remember that. He was killed. So I'm thinking if you can maintain control of I gone, then, you know, it's fine. But again, Jenny was unconscious. So she doesn't even know any of this that. But Daedra and Philip both had been possessed by him back when they were playing with him. So I don't know why they were so terrible with it. I do understand Jenny. Yeah. I would like to know and we don't we don't get this explanation of like, how did I gone return? Right. And maybe that was the difference. Maybe they summoned him and this is a little bit more out of I gone's agency as opposed to yeah. Right. Yeah. And you know, it could have been some other dumbasses messing around that summoned him and lost control. And then I got like, I'm gonna go get the first ones because they ditched me and kind of locked me down and I'm gonna get my revenge. Yeah. There's our backstory. Okay. Okay. That's what we that's what we put together. That's what we put together. It's gonna be our head cannon. Yes. Yeah. Understatement of the year. Yeah. I did like willow. There's something there that's something you don't see every day. Yeah. Did you see Xander protecting Cordelia or at least try it? Yeah. Yep. I tell you, I I predict something's gonna happen with those two. Something's gonna go down. All right. We will see. Yeah. We will see. I mean, for a moment here, I was a little worried that this was gonna be the end of Jenny. So glad it's not, but future is uncertain. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So, gosh, where do you want to go next after this? Well, I wondered how these books were organized that like, where are they gonna look up this I gone's? You know, I I thought, how are you gonna find this? Yeah. But they did. And what I what about me? I care about Giles. Yeah. Yeah. That smile on her face, which she jumps off of the counter. Yeah, that was cute. And when I said I cared about it. Yeah. But not enough to work with Xander. Yeah. Now this brought up a whole in my knowledge that I did not look up. Okay. So Willow, yeah, might cleverly figures out this symbol is not Egyptian, which she had been thinking maybe it was, but a Truscan. Yeah. I don't actually I've heard a Truscan. Mm-hmm. But I actually do not know what people or culture or geographical region that actually refers to. Okay. Well, I do. I thought you might. So please enlighten me there in or they were in modern day Italy. So kind of south of Venice and they kind of swept over to the west coast. So it wasn't all Italy and then like down the west coast to where like, what is it? Campania, Camparia or something like that in Italy. So it wasn't all of Italy and they did predate the Romans. But we don't really know much about the Etruscan. It's because it's does kind of seem like the Roman then occupation and growth kind of wiped out quite a bit of that earlier. Okay. So we don't know tons about the Etruscan. Is there a piece of art or an Etruscan scroll or is there is there something associated with Etruscan that makes me know the word that is more common day. Is anything jump out? Well, there's yes. Okay. I don't know. Is it a freeze maybe and maybe some pottery? Okay. And usually when people are talking about the rise of Rome, the Etruscans get brought up. That word gets bandied about. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. That's very helpful. And I'll actually probably remember that. So yeah, we don't know much about them. Etrus thought that they might have originated at Anatolia, which is modern day Turkey. Okay. But again, it's they're not really sure where they came from. They might have been kind of maybe this is just me positing things because I'm sorry. I was just looking at something that says they didn't speak it into European language. So which makes me wonder kind of like the Basque, right? They have been in Europe forever and they predate all of the big European societies. So maybe the Etruscans might have been them or like the Italian equivalent of the Basque, but got wiped out. Interesting. Or maybe not wiped out, but absorbed into Roman culture. Okay. Okay. Excellent. But will has got the dates on wrong. They did not predate any jobs by a long shot. When she said that, I was like, that's wrong. That is wrong, wrong, wrong. Somebody didn't do their research. Okay. Okay. Let's see. We're two. And they figure out that Eigen must have jumped into Jenny. And so, of course, well, I think Buffy first tries to call Jenny or Giles, right? But Jenny, Jenny Eigen, Eigen Jenny. And I have a note here, there are cleaner, quieter ways to disconnect a phone other than just a whole ripping it out of the wall. Yeah. Yeah. In the 90s, didn't they just have they had the little clicky things, right? Easy. Exactly. Easy. Jazz probably stayed back in 1950s or 1960s. Well, you probably did have to rip them. I think, I think it was a rotary phone now that you say that. But I mean, he would have had to adapt to whatever a place had. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So Jenny could find a faster way to pull that. Yeah. To disengage the phone that wouldn't have taken gotten Giles attention. Yeah. Yeah. That's where we started. Well, and here's where we started. This for me, this is where this episode gets more philosophically interesting, right? Because Jenny's trying to make out with Giles and Giles is like, it's not right. You're not yourself right now. And you know, then Egon, Jenny, Egon, Jenny, excuse me, says, God, you just don't change, do you? It's not right. It wouldn't be proper. People might get hurt. You're like a woman, ripper. You cry at every funeral. And so now we're starting to get into these big moral questions. And because Giles is the pillar of morality for the gang and the series up to now and we're finding out, Oh my gosh, you know, Giles wasn't always this way. We got a hint of it right back in the Halloween episode. And now we're getting deets on it. Mm hmm. But I do have to say, I don't like what Robie Alamoort was doing with her head during this part. Oh, yes, she's possessed. I was like, that's getting me to creeps. I don't like it. Yeah. But I do. I mean, I do appreciate that Giles is like, no, this would be taking advantage of you. You are you're vulnerable right now. Now he did not even realize she was totally possessed. Oh, yeah. Right. Right. Right. She was just, you know, possibly post concussion protocol or something like that. Right. But he was doing the right thing. Oh, sure. And yes, this is a bad thing that he did. But I don't really understand why it was all him. I mean, this group of idiots and you and I have both said, you know, you do stupid things. And it was like, I think I don't think they realized the seriousness of what they were doing, right, which is often the case. So I'm not sure. I mean, yes, it certainly totally blows out of the water. This perfect Giles who's always had tea for. But I don't think he comes off as being just horrible. Well, no, I'm not trying to, if I if that's what I implied, that's not what I meant to imply. But I think it just kind of gets back to that thing that we can, or maybe what I was trying to say is we're, we can see people in a certain way, right? And he's been this moral pillar for everybody. Absolutely. Without knowing anybody's background. Right. Right. Which was a bad assumption, right? To think he came out of the womb in tweed, right? Which is really how he's portrayed. Well, even mentioned, you know, his diapers were tweed. Exactly. So they have a real misrepresentation of Giles, but they only can come to a determination of what Giles is based on what they know at any particular time. Right. Right. Yeah, I'm tracking. Okay. That's kind of where I was going. I just said it badly. No, and I may have just been taking it to another step you didn't intend. Okay. Yeah, I didn't really intend to go there. But yeah. But yeah, I mean, and this is the lesson that Buffy's learning, right? Even if you really know somebody well, you do how well do you really know? I don't think you were saying it. I feel like the show is kind of saying it that Giles has this horrible past. I don't know. I don't think I was picking it up from what you said. I think it was, you know, like this total bubble is shattered, like he was super violent or so. I mean, I don't know. I'm not seeing that clearly. He was upset with Giles kind of when I don't know if he portrays himself as really violent, but he considers his behavior really bad back now. And so that's what the audience gets, right? Because he's like, it's all my fault. I summon him. It's blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. Because he knew he was rebelling, right? He didn't want to be a watcher. And so he drops out. Well, I said, watch your school, but it was really probably just university. Yeah. But he drops out of all that and rebelling. And so he in this world that they've created here, there's not tons of gray. There's still quite a bit of this is good. This is bad. And so I think that's kind of the world. Giles was raised in. And so he only can see that that was bad behavior. And there's not a lot of gray. I think the way he sees himself. For sure. He is his own harshest critic. I think all are usually. But Ethan, Ethan has some choice things to say about him, like maybe even more in the other episode, you know. So, but Ethan's a jerk. He is. He is. Although he does have a great line. He's got Buppy dropped to the table in the costume shop. And he's like, I hate to mutilate and run. Yes. After he's burned off. Oh, God. Put a tattoo on her. Yes. And very convenient location of that nail or whatever at the underneath that table. Yeah, he was tied to hard to believe. Ethan didn't see that when he was tying her up below there, but whatever. Yeah. And I was laughing a little bit in the scene too, because, you know, I got Jenny comes in. Oh my gosh. Framed in green. Yeah. In front of that door. Yeah. And I was like, what? They didn't even bother to lock the door. I mean, she just opened and entered. Yeah. Yeah. But I liked that the demon head straight for Ethan until they realized that the that he doesn't have to mark anymore. Yeah, wrote down. The demons got rules. He's got a code. Even they got a code. And even though the demon knows it with Ethan, he doesn't have the mark anymore. So they have to go to Buffy got to follow the code. I mean, if that was the they could have just all got number moved long ago. Yeah. Yeah. Why didn't they? Probably because I got was never going to come back. But well, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Were you surprised when Angel brushed in? And you loved that. I really it will. As soon as he rushed in, I knew they brought him because he was dead. But I did not know that that's what they were going to do before it happened. I did think that was a really cool idea. Now I'm not sure I guess I guess Angel's demon killed the other demon. I'm not really sure what went down there. Yes. Yes. But I can see why he jumped to the dead person. Right. Right. Because he was Jenny was about ready to die. And I got needs a living person. Or somebody that's unconscious. Well, no, they can jump to a dead person. So why would he jumped from Jenny? No, I'm like, wait a minute. There was something about he was threatened. No, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Now I've confused myself about that whole scene. Well, and yeah. Wait a minute. Okay. I'm not even going to try to puzzle it out right now. No. No. I've been talking about this episode. Very long time. Longer than the episode itself. I don't know how how we did it. But we did it. We got on some tangents. That we did get a few tangents. Uh-huh. Angel is dead. Good idea. Willow. Yeah. And what I did say was Angel's really taken one for the team. I mean, not sure how this was going to go down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, just sad about. I mean, calendars. I mean, they've been through some wacky stuff. Mm-hmm. And the calendar is, again, really spooked by this quite understandably. I mean, possession is a whole different thing. But I don't know. We'll see. We'll see where she goes from here. But at the end of this episode, she looks really, uh, it looks uncalendar like. I mean, just very not wholly herself. Right. Right. And she definitely doesn't want to have anything to do with Giles right now. Yeah. It is very sad. And it, you know, I love that chat when you, we find out, right, that Buffy had seen the whole exchange. And she becomes the adult for a moment. Yes. Trying to comfort Giles. Until he says, basically, it's music. I had to look that up. Well, he stunned me in the silence. I really did. I've never struck you so speechless. Did you find out what song they're super famous for? No, I didn't recognize anything immediately. S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y. Oh, okay. Okay. I absolutely know that. That song totally stunned in the silence. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes you'll be like, Oh, no, it's this. And I'll be like, no, I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never heard that. I've never seen that. But that, that I definitely heard. Okay. Okay. I like it. Oh, sure. It's fun. It's a, it's a fun little ditty. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, uh, Buffy's like, I didn't hear that. And they are Scottish, I believe. Basic religion. I think so. Yeah. Scottish pop rock band is what the internets told me. And that was my last note. All right. Yeah. I don't have anything after that either. So, yeah. Well, again, as I mentioned earlier, a good episode for getting some background and, and, you know, give me just a little bit more about Buffy's journey into adulthood. Yeah. The Bill Doug's Roman. Nice. So next time is our first two, two, two parter. Okay. I'll be ready. Since the begin, since the first one, right? We did the harvest. Yes. Or welcome to Sunnydale and the harvest together. But yeah. So we're going to be doing, what are we? Episode nine? Was that we just did eight? Yeah. Nine and 10 will be doing together. Okay. Well, I'll look forward to it. Yes. And now all we have to do is say, bye. Thanks for listening, everybody. Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer season two rewatched. It's Apache Rock instrumental by SoundItalia, available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback@witsdvpod@gmail.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D@gmail.com. And subscribe, and then subscribe, and then subscribe, and hit that subscribe button like and subscribe.
