[MUSIC PLAYING] Back in on Kidock Central. We are for enzyme-Pacific Vancouver's premier Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, and Jeep, Superstore on 2nd Avenue between Cambia and Maine, or at enzyme-Pacific Chrysler.ca. We are in the Mobile Kintec Studio Kintec, Canada's favorite orthotics provider, powered by thousands of five-star Google reviews. Soarfeet, what are you waiting for? That sound in the background is the Canucks getting ready for dress rehearsal, getting ready for the big one tonight, the potential Western Conference Finals preview between the Canucks and Colorado Avalanche. And it's going to be a big one in that-- Canucks haven't beaten the Colorado Avalanche to this point in the season. And it's been close in both of these games. The last one, a 3-1 loss with an empty netter, was real tight, almost like a playoff game. Dan Reachow, Satyar Shah. It is Canucks Central. Let's bring in our next guest. He is the goalie guru in goal magazine and NHL.com. It is Kevin Woodley. He is in presentation of White Rock Hyundai. Thanks for this, Woodley. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's going to be a little better if the folks that are filming, whatever movie they're filming, around Roger's Arena, mixed in the odd signs, pulled into five different parking lots, none signs that you weren't allowed to park there that I typically use, only to be chewed off later on. So no problem, I understand. Hollywood North matters. But my Hyundai is magical. It gets me through HOV lanes and missed the tunnel traffic and all that. It does not, however, tell me which parking lots are open and closed. So it would be great if the people closing them actually mixed in the odd signs to tell you they were closed. So there is my rant for the day, boys. Oh, it's so funny. You're talking to Roger's Arena tonight. Do you have a plan necessarily on using your regular spot? Yeah, it's funny, because coming in, we notice the same thing. And then Tyler Green popped his head in here when he arrived. And he's like, it's going to be an absolute disaster, because he's not letting anybody through on the roads here. So I was thinking about all the media converging. So it was only a matter of time. We'll leave before we get caught up. Hey, listen, Justin, the media aren't going to be a problem compared to the 18,000 fans. Yeah, you might want to Skytrain this one for tonight, if you are able to imagine if they're not done by six. Like, I would imagine they should be done by fucking. They're not going to be done by six. Well, one of them was kind enough to tell me that they will be reopening some of the lots around 5.30 or 6. He did not, however, have a clue which ones. That's great. Well, we'll find out. It should be interesting getting to the rink tonight. But Skytrain is here. Skytrain is here, boys. Yeah, pretty much. All right, so the big story. You're the goalie guru, and the big story as it's developed since Thatcher-Demko left Saturday night's win over the Winnipeg Jets. Casey Desmith going to have a chance to run with the ball here. But I know a lot of people have focused on, is this injury a-- does it have some kind of direct correlation to the feeling that the Canucks were maybe overplaying Thatcher-Demko, relying on him too much. Yet again, at 49 starts when this happened. What's your feel on Demko's usage heading into this situation? Well, I mean, like, he's on pace. Or he was on pace for 61 starts, which isn't crazy, even if it's amongst the highest in the league. And we had talked earlier going into the season. And I don't want to misquote him. But if I remember correctly, even in that season, starting presser with Jim and Patrick Alvin, I thought Jim dropped something around the 55 mark. So 61 is more than that. But I don't think it's at the point where you're panicking over workload. I know they've started them a lot since the All-Star break. I know a lot of guys I've talked to that were at. Part of the All-Star game I've talked about how much there is that dog days that they were experiencing from the All-Star break until the trade deadline. And how much that affected some of their play and some of their performances and some of their results. So the fact they played them that much during that run, you could maybe quibble with. My understanding, though, is this was an injury that could happen to a goaltender in game four, game nine, or game 49, regardless of your workload, as opposed to a wear and tear body's broken down. So haven't been able to get a ton of information about it specifically. Obviously rely on the reporting of the true insiders, the far-hand logies, and Rick Follywalls of the world in terms of timeline, and that seemed to match what Rick Talk had said yesterday. But my understanding is that it wasn't so much about him being worn down. And yet, at the same time, this is now three years in a row. And so it's fair or not, the questions will be asked until you've done it, you haven't done it. And in terms of planning for future, when it is three years in a row, do you have to be cognizant of making sure you've got an insurance plan? And listen, if the other thing too, he's certainly not the only one. Look around the league, right? Like a lot of the work horses. Outside of Connor Hellebach, missed time here and there. So let's see how long this one is before we overreact to it. The fact that he's back, according to Talk it, without any fear or worries or concerns before the playoffs is the positives. Should be enough runway to get him up to speed. And, you know, I mean, the downside is there were plenty of breaks coming. They sort of just needed to make it through Saturday. And the other downside is like just from a, you know, Canucks fan always waiting for the other shoot-a-drop mentality, like, man, like he was, he looked like the guy we saw for the first six weeks over the past four or five starts. Like, I really liked where his game was at. And so, you know, making sure he can get back to that at the start of the playoffs. You know, there's no guarantees, but there's enough runway to do so. - Well, that was gonna be my question for you. How many games do you think he would ideally want before the postseason? - You know, when I was on a Monday with Jamie and Thomas, I pointed to the example of the preseason in the regular season, right? Like starters typically only get three starts, maybe three full games, sometimes not even, heading into the regular season. I can't remember and I probably should have looked this up by now how many Thatcher actually got this year. But when you look at how well he played out at the gate, you know, the best goalie in the NHL, like lap the field for the first six weeks of the regular season, that's where the Vezna case was established. You know, it's probably not that much. Now, there's also sort of what you're doing up until that point, right? Like the games are only one part of it. And obviously when you play in the preseason, you're getting a lot of practice reps, you're getting a lot of time with the goalie coach. And, you know, so how much is he out? If he was over two and a half months and he had three games, maybe not. But if it's only gonna be a couple of weeks or three weeks and he can still get three, four games, I think that's more than enough as long as, you know, there's a buildup and an opportunity with the goalie coach in practice to be comfortable with everything you do as a goaltender in terms of movements and getting around the crease and that you can trust your body to do those things and make those explosive moments, movements, sorry, without sort of having in the back of your head, you know, is this going to happen again? - Yeah, I guess in that sense, maybe it would have been better to have an upper body injury, but I guess these things kind of, they happen, right? You can't really avoid it and injuries are a part of the game, but good news is, Demko looks to be on track to be back before the playoffs begin. Now, the ball gets handed to Casey to Smith here, Woodley, and you know, he's had a pretty good season by backup standards. You know, we've talked about him quite a bit here in our hits with you weekly. And, you know, I think it was really funny what Rick Talkett said yesterday, how much he's liked by the team. They're gonna block more shots for him because of how much they like Casey to Smith. I love that. - Listen, like he's not wrong. And I talked about this earlier in the season. Like honestly, like we talked about this at the beginning of the year, one of the reasons people were so excited about to Smith, and let's not forget, we're not that far removed from people in my mentions and people on the radio talking about starting him more. And at times, maybe even ahead of Demko, right? He was running a 919 for the longest time. He had one of the highest expected say percentages in the lake. It was well over 900, which never maintains and his hasn't. It's closer to 900 right now, but it was well over for a while there. And that's a sign of a guy that, you know, like this guy's busting his ass in practice. He's staying out late with a target on his chest for guys to load up one tease, doing all the things that nobody wants to do as a goaltender. But if you're a good team and good people and good group understand the value of, and when he got into the net, they played and defended really hard for him. I wouldn't just say blocking shots. That's just, I think that's just the phrase that pocket used yesterday. But I've seen it, I've seen it around the league. There are guys in that role that their team will play harder for them because they know how hard that role can be. And they see the day in day out work. There are other guys, I'm not gonna name names, but there are other guys who are ill suited specifically for the backup job because they've got stronger personalities that can sometimes wear on guys. And so it's not like you're not out there not trying. You're still playing hard, but there are different levels of sacrifice within the game. And sometimes you're not willing to make those for every guy in mid-October. The fine line is you have to do it within the structure of the system. Like it's like when a team moves his face and a goaltender and they feel like they have to do his job and go out of their way to block shots when it's not within, that's when you get into trouble. But I thought early on, especially for Casey to Smith, this team did a really good job. And it could be, it wasn't even blocking shots. It was just taking care of the front of the net. We talked about it early in the year. There were some rebounds there. Always kept them in front of them. They're not necessarily bad rebounds, but there wasn't a lot of rebounds early in the year. And the team was just fantastic at battling and blocking out and taking care of that area in front of him in those instances. And to me, that was sort of the signs of a team that was defending really hard for a guy that was working really hard for them, even when he wasn't getting in the net. - Yeah, I mean, he's played so well here for the Canucks. It's gonna be really interesting to see what he does for the rest of the season and how that plays into what happens in the postseason after the season and whether he comes back to Vancouver or not. But I want to also ask you, with Demko getting injured now, and he leaves the entire National Hockey League and wins with 34. The guy who's playing for the abs tonight, or I don't know if he's actually playing for the abs, Gorgia has 33 wins on the campaign, so he's only one, so he is playing for them, right? Now, in terms of the Vessner race, does this kind of take Demko out of it, you think? This injury? - Yeah, it doesn't take him. I still think he has a really good chance to be a finalist at. But short of kind of Helibok falling on a cliff, and yeah, he's interesting, you know, like he had a shot out the other night, but that game in Vancouver was five straight with three goals or more, and the second time in that stretch, he had he given up five. And so statistically, Demko was still ahead of him in terms of goals, saved and well expected. Helibok retook that position with the shot out the other night. But I do think Thatcher has a chance to be a finalist still, I think his chances of beating out Helibok were gonna depend on a strong finish, and that's why I love the way his game was shaping up that final week. And I think it would be tough, like I said, outside of Helibok falling off for him to overpass him. Like there are other guys who should be in the conversation. You know, we've talked about Jacob Markstrom at one point was lapping the field himself, not too long ago in terms of goals, saved up like a full like can ahead of Demko, eight ahead of Helibok. That's obviously gonna come down there, our tire fire defensively. They were not great defensively all year, but with no handoff in and no can of basically remove their top pairing. Like we've seen what's happened there and no goal he can save you from that, that level of defending for long. So I expect Markstrom to sort of fall off here. The guy who's worked his way into the mix and is actually ahead of Connor Helibok and Thatcher, Demko, and goals saved about expected. But again, I don't think his team makes the playoffs. And so he probably won't get strong consideration is Jordan Bennington. You know, he, like I said, he's second behind only Jacob Markstrom and Colestate of public perspective. Part of that again for both guys is playing behind a bad defensive team. You can make up large ground by playing well behind a team like that, harder to do when your team's, you know, not giving up a ton of expected goals, defending really soundly. But I, you know, I think a Bennington or Markstrom should, could and should be in the finalist discussion. I don't think even with three weeks or a month off, it'll be enough for them to pass them going knock them out of being a finalist. But it would take a lot for anybody to knock Connor Helibok off this day. Just, I mean, it's the way the GM's vote. It's, you know, the nature of the beast in terms of them wanting to avoid another Jim Carrey moment. I'm picking a guy who never does it again. The fact Connor's won once increases his chance of winning again just the reality of having the general manager's vote on this. And so it'll be very hard to knock Helibok out of that spot. - Yeah, I almost feel like when we talk about the Vesna, we have to kind of question or wonder how general managers are going to vote. And I just do a quick look at save percentage and see Jeremy Swamin and Sergey Babrowski pretty high on the list there too. And they both play on really good hockey teams. So I'd imagine they'd probably get some love too. - Yeah, and it is interesting, right? Like you mentioned, Georg, you have like his, last time I checked his adjusted save percentage was right around expected, you know, like in the 30s in the league, kind of wins. But I could see him getting votes, you're right. Like at the end of the day, the fact that general managers vote on this means that wins are going to matter, save percentage is going to matter. Some of them do do some digging. I have goalie coaches that will reach out because their general managers reach out to them and they will ask me for some insight into the underlying numbers that their team may not subscribe to. They're not asking for my opinion, certainly. They're just asking, hey, can I have a look or what do you, what do the numbers say about, you know, who's been the best in the league? And I'll share that with them. I'll give you my, this is how absurd it is that general managers vote on this award anecdote, but besides the obvious ones they've missed over the years or the not even having Sorrows as a finalist last year when he was the only guy who had any case to maybe even, you know, usurp Almark. And that would be having a goalie coach ask me about the list, giving him a certain name of a goaltender who yes, the numbers were true. He does deserve to be the top guy. And the answer being, well, I can't put him number one on my list 'cause my GM hates him. Maybe if I put him in at two or three, he'll actually include him. If I put him at number one, he might actually ignore him altogether. Like that's the level of absurdity we're dealing with. I'm not saying all of them, but the fact that wins in say percentage is typically enough to be a deciding factor tells you all you need to know about the level of research that goes in for many. - So we do have a question from a listener. It's rich in Cloverdale. And he wants your take on what the contract value for KC to Smith might be or how it could be affected by his play as he gets the starters net here for a little while with the Canucks. And, you know, can he outplay his way into a spot away from Vancouver by potentially getting too expensive? - Absolutely, he can. Like I would suggest that he was doing that for a large part of the season. You know, certainly as I talked about the 919 save percentage for the longest time, like here's the challenge for KC. It's almost impossible for him to dig himself statistically out of the hole created by the Minnesota wild game, right? Like statistically there's probably not enough runway even with them go hurt for him to truly erase a night like that. I guess if he were to start everyone for the next eight or nine and he plays really well then maybe. But that's a bit of a challenge. When he had a 919, I was already starting to hear those things from other goalie coaches, other people around the league about where he might fit and how big a role he could have as a 1B. What this gives him an opportunity to show. He's showing he can give you good games every two weeks. The flip side of that is can you be great if they need you for two straight weeks? And this is his opportunity to show that. If they can defend as well as they have for the past week for the next couple, I absolutely like his chances of playing his way into a bigger role and a bigger payday somewhere else. We are talking about a league where Danny Sabrin, I crap you not pardon the pun, literally got a contract in a one way contract and extended his stay in the National Hockey League because of those two and a half minutes that Roberto Malongo and here's where the pun comes in. Was stuck on the John. So two and a half weeks in the number one role if you show you can handle it. I think that would erase whatever damage was done statistically by the Minnesota Wild for a guy who was already in that conversation before the Wild game undid all his numbers. - Yeah, and ultimately, I mean, I just don't see them overspending on a back of goaltender, but so we'll see ultimately what happens with him in the off season. Before we let you go, I didn't wanna ask you a little bit about the Western Conference goaltending hierarchy a little bit 'cause sometimes you're right, the goaltending is such a difficult thing to judge and you can't just go by the numbers. And I think we often assume that Jake Autinger is one of the best goalies in the league and he's been fantastic, but then, you know, he's had some troubles this season. And then a guy like Gorgia, who we'll see here with the abs, he's second and wins in the National Hockey League and they'd love him and call Roberto, but reputationally isn't maybe viewed as a top-end goaltender, but given how they played this season, like how far, how much separates a guy like Gorgia from Autinger this year? - Not much, to be honest with you. It's interesting, I'm someone who believed that Gorgia could be a number one goal center when he was in New York. Some of the underlying stuff I had indicated that. Situation specific, like I think one Shishterkin took over and the potential for him to earn more minutes disappeared, his play suffered. When he was a long-hander, long-quest, he was really good. And so I saw that potential and believed he could be a number one. I like what I saw from him in the playoffs. I covered that series against Seattle last year for NHL.com down in Seattle and I don't think they were eliminated. Frankly, I know they weren't eliminated because of goaltending in the first round, as much as it was disappointing for them to be out that early. He held up his end of the bargain. This year's been interesting. Like statistically, it's not as good. I do think part of that, some of that is, they just played the wheels off him early. And you could see, I thought he started really strong, but then as the games played piled up, some of the performance dropped off. Now, I know he would probably push against that. He's a guy that wants to be out there every night and liked that opportunity. But I think when you look at it, he's been better here as they've gotten Eustis and in and playing more. Not only has he played well, but Georgiav's performances have gotten better as well. So I believe he's the number one goaltender. Do I put him in the upper echelon with the Demko's in the halibucks? Not necessarily. Autinger, all the pedigree says he's there. This has just been a really down year for him. It's been about a week since I've checked. But the last time I looked at the numbers, he was below expected for the season. I did a story on USA hockey, goaltending. And how, when you look at the top of the league, I think it was like four of the top six and say percentage and seven of the top 11, if you included, reduce the game's plate to include Joseph Wall, where American goal is. And I was almost surprised to see how far down that list Autinger fell. He had, not a lot of people realize this. He had off season ankle surgery that really slowed his off season and kept him off the ice. And I wonder how much that change in preparation is affecting him as this year's gone on. The talent's there. You still know what he's capable of. He doesn't come out of the conversation of potentially elite guys or his number one goal fenders, 'cause we've seen what he can do. But the reality is he hasn't done it consistently this season. And unless he gets on a roll, like Shastirkin is, for the Rangers right now, it's fair to have questions about where they'll be at with their goal attending, even if he's absolutely the guy once the playoffs start. 'Cause right now, statistically, it doesn't look like a strength, even though we know both these guys are capable and have done it in the past. - Hey Woodley, we'll see you here at the rink. Thanks for this. - Yeah, if we ever find a place to park. - Yeah, well, good luck with that. Godspeed. There he is. Kevin Woodley on Sports at 650 Brought to you by White Rock Hyundai. Visit the showroom on King George in White Rock or whiterockhunday.com. And you heard it from Woodley. Guys will block more shots for goalies that they like. So that's good news for Casey to Smith, who's at least got the reputation of good guy in the room around these parts. - Rick Talking was on to something. - Yeah. - Go figure. It's Dan Riccio and Satyarsha coming up. Sean Shapiro is gonna join us. We'll take a look at some of the league-wide story lines and also his take on potential NHL expansion in Atlanta and Utah. That's coming up next on "Conox Central." (upbeat music) - "Conox Central," it's Dan Riccio, Satyarsha. We are 90 minutes from the official pregame show beginning and 90 minutes because the night's puck drop between the Canucks and Avalanche is a 7.30 puck drop. That means you get more Canucks Central and that means you get more Canucks Central postgame. Well, I guess it's not more Canucks Central postgame. It's just that lasts longer 'cause it's going to midnight. - Yes. - So Sat's pulling an eight hour shift. - That's a long shift. But we're here for the people. That's what I'm saying, please win. I'm like, I wanna see a Canucks victory because I already know what the tone of a postgame show is going to be based on how they play or what happens. - They can't beat the good teams is probably what will be the take. - Yeah, exactly, and there'll be lots of it. And see, I told you so and a lot of stuff like that, which is never fun 'cause to me, it's not a fun conversation. It's like, I told you, they're not gonna, they can't beat these teams, like, okay, good for you. - Yeah. - Good call. - I will say, if they do manage to continue defending well, and ultimately this is what it comes down to for the Vancouver Canucks, where when they're defending well, they can have a lot of success. And these last few games, the Vegas game, certainly Saturday's win over Winnipeg, they defended really well, and that's gonna be key, especially now that Casey DeSmith has taken over these starters now. We'll get more into the pregame coming up a little bit later on, but now joining us is Sean Shapiro covering the NHL. Thanks for this, Sean, how are you? - I'm good, how are you guys doing tonight? - We're doing pretty well. - Getting ready for a big time Western Conference battle. How do you see the Western Conference right now? I mean, Canucks are right there. The Dallas Stars are among the best, and obviously Colorado, Edmonton, Vegas. There's the three juggernauts we thought coming into the season have now been joined by maybe three others at the very least here in the West. - Yeah, it's funny looking at it for me, right? Where Vegas is obviously, you saw the hoopla and everything, but then you look at the standings and all of the stuff that they did at the deadline and all the moves and everything. It's the team that I actually had to do the most since they're literally sitting in a wilder spot. They're still, right? So for me, that's, and then I look at, I look at Dallas as a fascinating team to me because I think coming in, I thought they were a team that had a chance to really be the team coming out of the West this year and their body works been great, but something I was looking at today, where when you look at their record against the other top contenders, there's something about 39 and two or whatever against the other top teams. And so for me, and then it includes there, they lost the Florida yesterday too in a game where, and they also have, with the goal-tending situation, we thought Jake Autinger was gonna be kind of the guy this year and he's been just kind of one of the guys. So I look at the West and it's, you look at what Vancouver's done there and obviously you guys know way more about how the Canucks have surpassed expectations than I do, but I look out West and it's, to me, it's really, I think, whoever comes out of the Central and wins the Central is gonna have a huge advantage by avoiding one of the either, whether it's Dallas or Colorado or Winnipeg, by avoiding one of the other ones from the first round. And then I actually would love to see that matchup with Vancouver kind of in the conference final. - I mean, hey, we'd love to see it. It's been a long time since we've seen a real playoff hockey in Vancouver, I mean, the last time they made it was the bubble, so no fans got to see it. It's almost been a decade here, Sean, before, since we've seen a playoff game on Roger's Arena, but, you know, as far as the Canucks are concerned and there are chances, I think, you know, none of us really expected them to be in this spot this season, and even so, I'm sure that if you ask most prognosticators, they probably have the Canucks still as not a, you know, clear-cut favorite, but is it fair to say that this Canucks team has a chance to win the Cup this year? - Oh, 100%, yeah, I definitely look at them as a team that could win the Cup this year. I think too often we try to find reasons to rip teams down and narratives and everything like that. Like, I think that's something that we push and prod, and at the end of the day, if you're one of those top four or five teams out west or out east, you've got a great team to win the Cup. There's as good of a chance as you can. I think that's just the reality of the sport, and I think too often we look for ways to try to pull teams down and everything and finding poke holes in it, and even when you do that with the Canucks team for me, watching from afar, I don't see as many holes as I see with some of the other teams, too. So I would, I don't know if I'm being too optimistic for your answer there, but I look at them as a real contender. - Yeah, it's taken a long time for the Canucks to sort of prove themselves to everybody, right? They had the shooting percentage binge that was going on early in the season, and you just did a quick look at their PDO, and it was like, wow, okay, that's not sustainable, but they've gotten better as the season's gone on, and their defensive game is really developed, and really, Sean, when I look at contenders, you know, ultimately you've got to be able to defend, and your puck management's got to be good, and I know that's very hockey talk, very cliche of me to say, but generally that's what ends up winning in the playoffs. The teams that make the fewest mistakes end up being the last one standing come the end of it. - Well, in Vegas was, I mean, Vegas was a perfect example of that, right? Everyone talks about it. It's easy for people to get wrapped up in what they did, and how they aggressively push the cap with their roster and everything like that, but at the end of the day, the reason Vegas won the Stanley Cup last year is, essentially, they rolled out a defense where everyone was six foot two or bigger, they boxed out the net, they gave you the errors, and they were willing to take away and defend and control the dangerous areas of the ice, and that's the real Vegas story from last year, right? And that's what winning hockey is. That's why we see other teams have looked at what Vegas do defensively and tried to do similar things this year, and you look at Dallas, a team that's been clicking along offensively. Why do they go and make the TANF trade? Well, they need to get better defensively. You look at some of the other moves that made it the deadline. To me, you're right, it's cliche, and I know people, and I'd love to see six, seven, five, six lacrosse-type scores, but at the end of the day, we're gonna see a team win the Cup that can win a game three, two, one in June. Yeah, and I think ultimately, one of the things that I think we often forget about when we're talking about regular season hockey is how different things get in the postseason, and that's why when I look at a number of teams, I know like sometimes it's a hockey cliche, Sean, to say, well, this team can't play the right way, but like literally, if your team doesn't know how to play defense as a five-man unit, you're not gonna have a chance in the postseason. Well, and the other thing about it, too, is that the thing about playoff hockey that we often forget is there's the, the film familiarity over a series that exposes your flaws, right? Like one of the great things about regular season hockey is you go and you play a team and you play them, like regular season coaches effectively only care about their own team in the regular season. You have to do some pre-scal and everything like that, but really it's about your own team because you got to play tight and say Philadelphia and then play in New York the next night. You're really worried about your own team. The playoffs are the first time hockey coaches actually go into that chess match mode where they try to find flaws and they try to and they actually have the ability to try to find the weaknesses in other teams and then those get exposed over the course of a seven-game series. And that to me is really the big story. We often miss when it comes to playoff hockey where it's, yes, it's tough and difficult and physical, but really what it is is it's coaches now, instead of being like, okay, how do I manage four games against four teams in a week, it's how do I beat one team over the course of seven games? And that's one of the beauties of it. Like I think there's, I covered obvious, I covered the stars for a long time. And I look at one of the things with Jim Montgomery who coaches the Boston Bruins now. Really good regular season coach. And last year we saw the playoffs at Outcoach by Paul Murray from that first round. When I covered him in Dallas, he got Outcoach by Craig Burube in the series against Blues. Really good regular season coach, but all of a sudden lost the chess match in the playoffs. And that's where, if we're sticking with a Canucks team on this, you're looking like, okay, for Rick Talkett, what he's doing in the regular season, the team is great. When you, in that first round all of a sudden, the other team starts trying to find your flaws and you find their flaws. That's when you kind of learn a lot about when your coach really is right now. - Sean Shapiro, our guest, follow him on Twitter by his name. Check out his SHAP shots blog, and also check out his work at EP ringside among other venues. So the Vegas Golden Knights, they are the biggest story in the league. It seems like every time we get in and around the trade deadline, we're a few days beyond it now. And people are still talking about what Vegas did. And, you know, I am curious how it all comes together, come play out time with hurdle outs and trying to get all these guys integrated into their roster and things like that. But I have to imagine, Sean, like not only us as fans, but owners around the league are probably going to their GMs and be like, how come they're always able to do this kind of stuff? And we're always stuck in the middle or, you know, stuck in the mud and working around the salary cap while they keep doing what they do. And it, like that's the frustrating part of it. Even if we ultimately respect George McPhee and Kelly McCriman for how much work they've put into that roster and how aggressive they've been in always improving it. - Yeah, and the other thing that Vegas, like the truth, the other thing about Vegas that they've done that's been an owner that obviously signs off on this. And this is such a, one of the employees they've gone against is they don't care about their first round pick. And that's something where there's so many GMs and owners and every single year we hear about the currency and what a first round pick is. And Vegas has, other than in their entire franchise history, they've only kept one first round pick. They've either, they traded away the most recent one in this deadline, Brendan Bursam's the only first round pick that's still in the fold. And I think kind of accepting that first round picks are currency is kind of one of the things where a lot of people be like, oh, I want my owner or my GM to be more aggressive and be like this. But at the same time, we'll get both fans and GMs. We always get the same kind of a reaction of like, oh, you can't trade a first round pick. We got to protect that way. I think kind of Vegas from the beginning has been willing to go against some of those norms. And they've also at the same time when it comes to the cap stuff, like they're willing to play the last day they played what? I think it was 12 or 13 games of 17 skaters because they were willing to go up against the emergency conditions with the injuries and everything like that. It's one of those things where I think Vegas is kind of, the longer Vegas does this without the ultimate bottom out, the more you get kind of a copycat lead at some point will be like, oh, it's not just a Vegas thing. It's something everyone can do. But for right now, I think people look at them as an outlier who plays, not plays by a different set of rules, but they're pushing and pushing. At some point it's going to bite them. It's going to bite them and it's going to catch them and it hasn't yet. - No, it certainly hasn't. And we'll see if it does this year in the postseason. But the success of Vegas as an expansion franchise and honestly the relative success as well, the Seattle crack in three years and being competitive, making the playoffs last year, seems to have been bold in the National Hockey League in the efforts to further expand in the National Hockey League. And we've heard that Atlanta has formally re-entered the expansion chat with their letter of intent and they want to bring a team back. Is it really just a matter of when when we see a team whether in Salt Lake or Atlanta at this point? - I mean, it feels a lot like it. And you look at the, I mean, there is a, from the Atlanta perspective, there's a couple of key caveats right there that make it pretty obvious that there's, hey, you have a good ownership. It seems like a pretty good ownership group coming, coming to the table to bring this happen. The other thing is a lot of the stuff with the NHL is follow the money, follow the TV deals at the same time. I mean, it doesn't, the fact that the NHL's, one of the two NHL large partners, the other National Broadcast Partner in the United States Turner, they're based right, they're in Atlanta. They've got one of the things where, if something doesn't work out with the coyotes, I've always been told and read things where the fact of the matter is, there's extreme value in being in a certain amount of top 10 American markets. And Atlanta is a top 10 American market from media side, everything like that. And whether it's Atlanta and Salt Lake City, and that's what it seems like the most, it's NHL owners want to make more money too. And as, whether it's a relocation, doesn't really make any money other than maybe someone selling the team to someone else. The expansion fee, whether it's gonna be, if it's a billion dollars now or whatever it's gonna be, that's a lot of money in other people's pockets. And at some point, right, it feels like it's gonna happen. And I just think once, I really look a lot at that Turner deal, once Turner kind of came into play with the NHL, and with their base in Atlanta and everything like that, that really added that additional partner/legitimacy, whatever you want to call it, to really make Atlanta something that doesn't just feel like, if but more of when now for me. - Sean, we really appreciate the times. Thanks so much for this. - Yeah, thanks a lot, guys, just fun. - Yeah, there he is. Sean Shapiro, follow him on Twitter, buy his name, and of course, check out his work @ep ringside, and also his shap shots blog. Had covered the league for a long time, covering the business side of the league as well, and part of the reason we wanted his take on potential expansion was just that. He covered the business side of the league, and as mentioned, the TNT Sports deal, having those games on TNT, maybe was the first signal of the NHL making its way, or trying to get its way back into Atlanta, and ultimately, I know Elliott Friedman has made this point on 32 thoughts. The NHL, yes, as more teams in the NHL than there is in baseball or in the NBA, but also, there's fewer teams in American markets than there is in the NBA or Major League Baseball, and certainly the NFL. So you start to do the math. Well, maybe there is room for expansion into more cities in the US for the NHL, and getting that ultimate number up. What it does for the quality of the league and all of that, those are the next questions to answer, but it's pretty clear. Gary Bettman wants to keep expanding if he can. - Yeah, and honestly, I don't love it, and I know you made a good argument in the past, and it's the right argument, really. It's about the longevity of the long term of it, getting into more markets, and long-term, it'll pay off, it'll catch up and everything. It's, I just, I don't know, I just find, you already have 30 teams, you just got two teams in, and it seems very aggressive, and that doesn't mean it won't be worth it in the end, but I just, I don't know, I almost feel like it's too soon to water the product down even more, so quickly, after adding two more teams in, and you're already, I mean, it was different for me when you were in the 20s, right? Yeah, 22 teams, 24, you're trying to expand and get to 30. Now that you're at 30, now at 32, it's really difficult to keep adding teams and not see a big difference. I do think this is the year, the first year, we're starting to see the real impact of having 32 teams. Like, look across the league, we always talk about how now, how all the teams are flawed. It's almost impossible, not only because of the cap, but also the scarcity of talent. - Yeah. - You know, like, when you have so many good players spread out over 32 teams, it makes it harder for the top teams to load up even more. So, like, our concept of a Stanley Cup winning hockey team is going to keep changing with more teams coming in because teams aren't gonna be able to load up as well, as much. - The talent is continuing to get more spread out. - Yeah. - And, you know, I think Major League Soccer's had this problem at times where, you know, the parody of the league, one of the talks about MLS has always been, they're just expanding way too fast. Like, what are they at, 28 teams now or something like that? And, you know, they've just been expanding, expanding, expanding, expanding, and there's got to be a limit at some point, is there not? But, clearly, the NHL feels that there are some spots they'd really like to go to. Is there continued expansion beyond 34 teams? Because, at this point, they've gone so far down the line with Utah and Atlanta, I almost feel like, I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen at some point in the next little while with those two clubs and with those two cities, but is there more beyond those 34 cities? - Yeah, we'll be something I'd be interested in. Danaricho and Satyar Shah. So, you look at the Western Conference and, you know, we are going to get to our preview and pregame for the Canucks and Avalanche coming up. It feels like the Western Conference is setting up similar to how the Eastern Conference played out last year. Where there's so many juggernauts, all-in-one conference, so many good teams, all-in-one conference, that it's going to take a lot to navigate your way through that playoff. And what happened with Florida? By the end, I mean, they were just like, they were being held together by duct tape, by the time they got to the Stanley Cup. - It's a gauntlet to get through. But, you know, as much as good as Florida was last year, they also kind of caught lightning in a bottle, you know, too, with how they came up and to beat the Bruins and then get through the Leafs and everything too. - But they hadn't let go of it. It's not like they dropped off this. - No, but I did think they kind of punched above their weight a little bit as a team, right? I think they have improved, obviously, and they're a good team again this year. But it's always a war of attrition in the playoffs, you know? And that's why, you know, we were talking about, you know, Canucks adding depth at the deadline, and we're sitting here bemoaning the fact that could you have added a eighth defenseman, or an extra guy that could upgrade on Friedman, for instance. And it seems ridiculous today. Yeah, once you get through two rounds, if you're so lucky to get through two rounds, be there for the third or perhaps get to the Cup final. So many guys go down, you're relying on, you know, guys that haven't played games for you, probably, at all, at some point in the NHL this season. And that's just a reality of these long runs, and that's why you want to get as much depth as you possibly can. But it's one of those things too, where you just need luck, you know, like, honestly, you need a little bit of luck to go your way. That's why, you know, people mention all take on Vegas in the first round, don't be afraid of him. I'm not afraid of any opponent, 'cause you should take it on. But if you're trying to plot together your best chance to get to a Cup final, you have to avoid a few opponents, you have to have a few short series, you have to have some luck with injuries. Like, if you don't get those things, you're just not going to win. Taking a look at the Dumbbar Lumber text message inbox, answer some questions here. If we see the Canucks go on a run with the Smith, would that be enough of a reason for fans to gain more confidence in the team? That is from Brandon in Langley. So, you look at the Winnipeg Jets, both Lauren Persuah and Connor Hallibuck, I think the last time I checked, we're both above a 920 save percent. - Yeah. - Is that, how much of that is a testament on how good the goal tenders are? And we know Hallibuck has been among the best goalies in the league for his entire NHL career. But how much of that is also on the team? And I think some of the Smiths, and we talked about this with Woodley earlier, some of the Smiths early season success, was in part because the team really clamped down when he was in net and he really played well in front of him. But, we've come to a spot in the league where I think us as analysts and even more so fans can tell when a goalie is saving and stealing games for his team, and when there's a combo of, hey, we've got a good goalie, but also the team that's playing in front of him is helping him out quite a bit. I think the Canucks are going to have to help the Smith out, maybe more so than Thatcher Demko, like maybe he's not gonna make those big saves like the one on Alex Turkot, or some others that he made through this recent four-game win streak, but he hasn't given up the easy one. And ultimately, that's almost all you can ask for out of your backup netminder. So as long as the Canucks take care of things in front of him, Casey Dismith should be okay making the saves behind them. - He should be. At the same time though, what separates these goalies is something bad happens to you, how do you recover from it? - Yeah. - Can you prevent from giving the bad goal up, and dismiss to his credit, hasn't, don't let it snowball on you? - And honestly, like sometimes the mental side of starters is really what separates them. And we hear this a lot in terms of talent, there isn't a lot, it's just little small things and mentality is such a big part of goal-tending as well. It's almost like tennis in a way, like you have a couple of unforced errors, then you get that out of your head, and it's just you on an island, you know what I mean? Like you have to face the next shot, you can't let somebody else take the next volley. As a goal, you can't let somebody else take the next rush. And those are the types of things where if he can just handle that, I think it's fine. And if you look at the Canucks overall defensive play this year, you're right, and if you look at it from just a goals against standpoint, the Canucks are first in the National Hockey League, five on five, no sorry, second in the National Hockey League, five on five when it comes to goals four per 60, and the Canucks goals against per 60 are fourth in the National Hockey League. - So they're good at both ends. - And they happen in terms of results. Now I know we start looking at some of the other metrics, but even by those metrics, like you mentioned yesterday, the Canucks have gone from being a team that was rioting percentage, so to speak, to being a team now that ranks amongst the tops defensively as well in the NHL, when in terms of chances per 60, high dangerous goals, expected against, and all of these other factors from this counting stats, they all look very favorable when it comes to Vancouver. So you're right, it's a team game that matters the most, and in the regular season, I'm not as worried about dismiss, it's more about the playoffs, but hopefully by that point, you don't need to worry about it with Demko being healthy. - The old cliche is good defense leads to a good offense. It's kind of true in hockey. - Last year, Canucks were, I think, off the top of my head, they were bottom five in goals against, and they weren't, I think they were like 12th or 13th in goals for. Like they weren't a top 10 offensive team. We talked about the Canucks as if they were running gun and all they knew how to do was score, and oh, they could score, but they can't defend when, yeah, they were like very average offensive team in the last couple of years. Of course, you had your top end guys, but they didn't have a lot of depth beyond it. And this year, not only have they gone from being a bottom five defensive team, but they're now a top five defensive team, and also the offense is crept up with it. That was for a lot of the Travis Green era, their issue, if they had to sacrifice defense to get more offense, and they had to sacrifice offense to be a little bit stronger defensively. But now they've found a way, and I think it's because of, you know, how they've increased the floor of this team with the talent that they've brought in, they've got an ability to do it at both ends. And that's what the numbers have told us about the Vancouver Canucks. Coming up, we're gonna get to overrated or underrated. We've got a lot of your texts coming in, you can keep them coming, $6.50, $6.50 in the Dunbar Lumber text message inbox. It's Dan Reicho and Satyar Shah on Canucks Central.
