Stories Behind the Story with Better Reading

Stories Behind the Story: Danielle Binks on the importance of reading without making it feel like a chore

Danielle Binks talks to Cheryl about the importance of promoting the joy of reading, the vital role of libraries in creating welcoming spaces, and how storytelling can nurture empathy and build community. Her latest YA novel, Six Summers of Tash and Leopold, is out now.

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Duration:: 34m
Broadcast on:: 13 Oct 2024
Audio Format:: other

This is the Better Reading Podcast platform with stories behind the story, Jane's Be Better podcast, my book chat with Caroline Overington, and more. Looking for a particular podcast? Remember, you can always skip to it. Welcome to the Better Reading Podcast, stories behind the story brought to you by Belinda Audio. Listen to Belinda audio books, anywhere, everywhere. Hi, this is Cheryl Arkel from the Better Reading Podcast, stories behind the story. We talked to authors about how they came to tell us their story. Danielle Binks, welcome to Better Reading. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. I've been looking forward to this conversation because, you know, I was reading through my research notes and I was looking at your extensive career and I thought, I don't know if I knew that. I don't know if I knew any of this. So I want to go right back to how you came to be. Right back. Where I'm from? Where I'm from? Where I'm from? Where I'm from? How I came to be? Oh, so you want to know that I could only ever illustrate frogs, so I would put together picture books purely about frogs because that's what I could illustrate. No, I genuinely think I was always a reader thanks to my mom, my auntie, and my grandma, who always the carrot dangled in front of me as a kid was always books. Books was always the treat and for anyone who remembers so that I wouldn't chuck a tante at the supermarket, I would be promised a little golden book at checkout back when they cost like 50 cents and I still have my stack of golden books. And also the trip to the public library was always the treat for me. So they clocked me, they knew me very well, and my mom, my auntie, and my grandma in particular were all big readers. So I always saw them reading. I always understood that reading was for pleasure. They got a lot of enjoyment out of it. I saw them talking about books together, so it was very communal and beautiful. So I just always had aspirations of being a reader. I was a reader and I'm not in the least bit surprised if I look back at all the photos of me reading on the potty. Reading little golden books as a little curly-haired toddler. I'm really not too shocked that I have a life in books now. I'm very honoured. You work in children's books, so you know where I'm coming from here, but a lot of times I see around me and everybody's trying their best as parents. So I'm not being critical. I'm just kind of it's an observation, but I see a lot of people that make reading, and I don't know if you've seen any of these readers that kids can bring home, and it's such a chore, right? You know, so reading becomes homework, and I think that is really very unfortunate because you lose the joy of the story. And the other night, one of my great nephews came back with a bunch of books. They were readers, and they were awful. And I thought that really could be quite detrimental to your intake and interest in story. Absolutely. I see this constantly, and I do query why they don't turn to book publishing a bit more instead of educational publishing, because it's not as so children's books aren't thinking about children's education and development. Something really interesting in recent years, speaking as a literary agent as well, something really interesting is the way that picture books have changed. So publishers have acknowledged that a lot of people, a lot of kids, for whom English is a second language, they're learning English at the same time, but they don't want to be babyed. And those early reader books, if you're an older kid, or even a teenager, to be given one of those is kind of humiliating and a humiliating way to learn English. And it's not a very joyful way to be welcomed into a new country and to learn a new language. So publishers have been doing things like making picture books that are a little bit more graphic novel-esque, a little bit more interest on the page, and they don't actually look like baby picture books. They're a little bit thicker, trace, for instance, is a great author of these. And they have been designed acknowledging that, hey, some older kids need more enticement in their reading to get good at this stuff. And I also think, why don't they envelop audio books a lot more? Because I know as a kid growing up, something as simple as those little Disney read-along tapes that you would put the tape into the recorder. And it would say, "Perm the Page," when you hear the Tinker Bell swinkle, etc. They were so much fun. And I think audio books have come such a long way now that we can incorporate that a lot more into our education too. But you're completely right. If you don't show reading as a joy, as something that improves your life, that will be with you for life, that will be an adventure that you can always tap into and that your local public library that wants nothing more from you than for you to come into a community space and feel safe and find knowledge and enjoyment and entertainment. If you do not teach that to kids from a young age, I think they're missing a really big trick. I think they're missing out on one of the joys of being part of society. I think then we give them that resistance to reading if we don't make it joyful and if we don't make it about the story. But listen, you just made reference to you being a literary agent. And I'm interviewing you based on being a children's author for this particular podcast. So before we go any further, perhaps you need to explain to our listeners what is your job? So I have been a literary agent with Jacinta de Marzay Management, which is a Melbourne boutique agency. I've been an agent since 2016. I did not go to university to learn to be an agent. I did not formally train. I was somebody who had studied to be a journalist for many years. And then I had done a course at RMIT University called Professional Writing and Editing, where I now teach, which was kind of the background if you wanted to work behind the scenes in books. And I kind of did that course thinking I'd be an editor one day. But at the same time, I was updating a book review blog that I had. And because of my book review blog, a literary journal called Kill Your Darling's also invited me to be a contributor looking at youth literature in Australia. So I was being, so wanted a better term, very male, the online, very opinionated about books online. So one day at the Wheeler Center in Melbourne, I got tapped on the shoulder by Jacinta, who said she recognized my curly hair. And she had been reading my articles and my book review blogs. And she said to me, your very opinionated online, you have a lot of opinions about youth literature in Australia in particular. And she said, I think you would be a really good agent. Why don't you come and work with me? So I got really hands-on training and experience being an agent. And specifically being an agent who really wanted to look for diverse voices in youth literature in Australia. When I was blogging and writing for Kill Your Darling's Literary Journal, I was querying things like, hey, where's all the indigenous youth literature? Where's all the queer youth literature? Why don't we embrace graphic novels and comic books a little bit more in Australia? And now as an agent, that's what I get to do. I get to find creators who I think have a good story to tell. And I help them sell them in your scripts to publishing houses. And I've learned on the job as I've gone on. But the way that Jacinta categorizes this is so brilliant where she says, look, publishers are out for publishers. Publishers are out to make money for their corporation. Agents are out for creators. We're here to help creators in this path, in this business. To find their way. To find their way and to get their dues and to keep creating, to have a long career in this place as well. So that's what I do. And I'm very, very lucky to do it. And you're an author of children's books and adult books as well. Yes, I am. And I gather you don't sleep much. If I stop to count the number of plates that I'm spinning, I fear that they will all go crashing. But for the time being, I love what I do. I can't believe that my entire life is books and reading and publishing. I'm very, very lucky to be here. But yes, I don't sleep much. Do you know, I sleep a lot, actually. I'm a good sleeper. However, we share the same passion. We are lucky. And there's not many people that I've spoken to in this industry who don't just love it. Because none of us are doing it for money, you know. I mean, we're trying to run businesses, but we're not going to get rich. But I mean, I say this often on my Instagram, I was at work the other day. And there was, you know, Danica Mackenzie and Michael Roboff and talking about their careers. And you had one early career and one later career. And here I am sitting there, just steering, I think, the conversation and having the privilege of sitting there in my office. And I just, I do think a lot of the times, how did I get here? It's a pinch yourself moment, you know, and you clearly have those. So we're recording this on the 27th of August. So the previous week was Book Week, CBCA, Children's Book Council, Australia Book Week. And I was doing a lot of tours around Melbourne and Victoria and down where I live on the Southeast and suburbs, visiting schools and such. And amidst all of this, number one, I get to work with young people, who are the cleverest amongst us, who are going to rule the world. And so they should, I want to give them the keys right now. Because they are truly brilliant. I feel the same way. Yeah. Yeah. And amidst all of this, the CBCA Book Awards were announced. And two of our authors at JDM won. One of my authors in particular, the young adult author, Karen Comer, won for the older Readeth category with her first novel, Grace Notes. And then one of the authors, Brian Eastuit, author, illustrator, won for her early childhood book, Gymnastika, Fantastika. And at one point, I asked one of the librarians I was working with to let me know when the announcement was made. And she let me know by holding up Grace's book, Grace Notes, waving it around and saying it won, it won. And I just had this like pinch me moment of thinking, wow, I'm a kid who was once so entranced by that, that gold sticker on a book. And now I've had a little hand in helping one of my creators win that gold sticker and put some really good literature out into the world for young people and just the enormous privilege of that. And one saying that I have that I repeat constantly is art changes people and people change the world. And that's why I can't believe that this is my job, that I get to have a little say in putting more empathy into the world, in finding narratives and diverse voices that haven't necessarily been heard before, and helping them come out of the shadows a little bit, be upheld and celebrated, and read by kids who I genuinely think need to see all sorts of people in their stories, from all walks of life, from all backgrounds, because that grows their empathy. But like I said, the more important thing is, art changes people and people change the world. And I get to be a little cog in that wheel and it's very- I'm just going to make a comment about Book Week. We get involved a little bit through our Better Reading Kids. However, ABC Drive asked me to do a segment on Book Week at Glass Week Radio, and I was again collating my notes and having you think about what I was going to say. And what struck me this year is I feel as that it's grown exponentially over the years, Book Week. And you know, schools have embraced it, kids have embraced it, teachers have embraced it, authors have embraced it. And I thought how lucky we are to have it, because one of the equivalents was, you know, Halloween. It was something that you could compare it to, but Halloween's about candy, really, where Book Week is about the power of story. And my great nephew, who's three, and in that moment that I was thinking about it, and in that moment that I was going to talk on radio, my niece sent me a photo of my great nephew, her son, and he was wearing a cockroach outfit. And the smile on his face, Danielle, the pride, you know. - How tough to ask. I love it. - Yes. Yeah. So it was an a firm book. I forgot the title. And I just thought the magic of story has touched that boy. - I love this so wholeheartedly. Also because, yes, the Book Week parade where you get to dress up is one component of it, but you don't need to go all out and buy a costume and get like a Disney approved or anything like that. By no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can find a character who was a footy player or a nipple player. And if you already have that costume, wear that. Right? Absolutely. If you want to be a tennis player, go look up Ash Barty's beautiful books, and then you have an Ash Barty dedication. Perfect, amazing, brilliant. I think the true celebration of Book Week is, yes, story, and also how it potentially centers for people, how important the school library is to a school community. And if your school doesn't have a school library, if they've cut the budget or they don't think that they need a dedicated teacher librarian, can I just say go and find yourself the website students need school libraries.org.au. It is amazing the studies that have been done into the health of a school community if there is a dedicated library space. Oh, yeah, without a doubt. If you think about it, it is a librarian's job to reflect the community that they are servicing. So they will look for books that are diverse if their school community is diverse or speaks to them. You know, if you have a big community, school community of refugees or, you know, immigrants, they can look for those stories so they can see themselves reflected in the page and feel less lonely. And it's the place with the kids who need a place to hang out, to feel safe, to regulate themselves, absolutely, but then even more than that. And to escape sometimes. Totally to escape. And, you know, if you think about the power of perhaps being a queer teenager and finding a display of queer books in your library and thinking, "Oh, wow, I'm accepted. That's really beautiful." And I think the library itself, this is where you're going to see a little bit of my politics coming through, but the library is the one place in the world that doesn't ask anything of you. They don't want you to spend money. They just want you to come in, take a book, take its knowledge, or it's fun that it's giving you, take it away, experience that, then bring it back for somebody else to enjoy. And it is this pure form of true community spirit of, hey, this is for everybody. Please treat it as such. Please come in here, see. And it's global. And it's global. And that is why I genuinely think when I hear about, you know, in the UK, so many libraries are being shut down because of funding cuts, I heard in New York, the great New York Public Library was being shut on weekends because they couldn't fund it. And the number of people that came out and said, "It's not just people borrowing books there. It's people that grow there to study who do not have access to Wi-Fi. It's homeless people that also go there who are experiencing houselessness and need a safe place to just be." I've seen that many times. I've seen homeless people sitting there reading the newspaper, having a coffee out of a coffee machine. That's a beautiful, pure form. And that's a little bit of a storyline in my new book as well. Six months of Tash and Leopold features, a really beautiful school library. And then a transition for one of the characters when they go to high school, and their high school doesn't have a librarian, they just have an automated checkout, and they have a school board who approve titles, etc. And the difference in their mental health when that happens as well, and it really makes them reflect on, hey, I really, my school library gave me a lot. And the fact that the school library and the story helps to unravel a little bit of a mystery as well. All of that is my personal beliefs about the library, how beautiful and glorious instruction this is, but we should always invest in them. And then it's the health of a community, whether it's school or town, to have a good library, absolutely. Expand the way you work and think with Claude by Anthropic. Whether brainstorming solo or working with the team, Claude is AI built for you. It's perfect for analyzing images and graphs, generating code, processing multiple languages, and solving complex problems. Plus, Claude is incredibly secure, trustworthy, and reliable, so you can focus on what matters. Curious? Visit claud.ai and see how Claude can elevate your work. Cue the fireplace and your favorite fall movie. There's nothing better than a cozy evening at home with a class of first-leaf wine. First-leaf is a personalized wine club that delivers right to your door. Sounds magical, right? They get to know your favorite tasting notes, which varietals you enjoy, and whether you prefer sweet or dry wines. So in every shipment, you get bottles tailored to your unique palette. Go to tryfirstleaf.com/fall to get your first six wines for just $44.95 with free shipping. My career started at Miracle Library. Yeah, I was a library assistant. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah, so anyway, I want to go back. We got a little bit sidetracked about your career path, so we only got to primary school, I think. Primary school, yes. No. So, I don't know. I just, I always loved books and reading, and now that's my entire world, and even more beautifully, I went to RMIT University and I studied professional writing and editing, not to be an agent, purely because I thought that I would work behind the scenes books, and my first thought was editor, and then in the very back of my brain, in the place that you don't allow to speak aloud, I was thinking, "What if I wrote a book one day? What if I, what if I maybe sometimes put..." That was the question I wanted to ask you. Was it something that you thought about in primary school and high school? Was that kind of like, "I want to be, I want to be one of them? I want to be one a storyteller?" In primary school, I truly don't believe I had any knowledge that there were people who made books, until Paul Jennings came to my primary school at the height of Round the Twist, and I just remember sitting at his feet as he read from a new book and thinking, "Oh my gosh, a person wrote that?" I didn't realize that there was an actual, that was the first hint in primary school at the very young age, but then in high school, I discovered something called fan fiction, which is writing characters and universes that you did not create, but you want to keep adding to the story. I discovered fan fiction at the same time that Twilight kind of was out, so very embarrassing, but actually not, because I'm quite proud of the fact that I began in fan fiction. I actually wrote 391,000 words of fan fiction all up, and it was my writing of fan fiction that got me into the course RMIT Professional Writing and Editing, because I had to submit some of my own stories, and I didn't have any of my own stories, I had fan fiction. So I submitted fan fiction, I went before a panel who had to decide if I'd be allowed into the course, and I had to explain to them, I did not invent Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I wrote fan fiction of Buffy, but they sort of said, "Look, you've got something here, maybe doing the course will allow you to tap into your own storytelling." So that's what I did at the age of 22. What was that moment like when you thought maybe I'll write a book? Very scary. And I still feel that moment. I feel that moment still when I have a story idea, but I don't yet want to commit it to the page in case it all evaporates, but the idea in my head is brilliant. So for a long time, the idea in my head that I would whisper and kind of think, "Maybe I'll be an author one day." It was too brilliant an idea, too audacious an idea to, you know, put into verbalised words, that I started squirreling away a few story ideas, I started entering short story writing competitions via VoiceWorks and Express Media, which is an organisation dedicated to young writers in Australia, and I came runner up in a few prizes, I got some short stories printed, and seeing your name and print for the first time is a very heedy experience, and it becomes a little bit addictive. So yeah, I just had a few little wins thanks to incredible Australian organisations, like Express Media, like VoiceWorks. That's such a good tip for writers, isn't it? You know, like if you're going to write, you've got to connect and network with as much as possible, enter as many competitions as possible. Talk to me about your first actual book, how they came about and how they got published, and what genre? Because you write children's books, you write adult books as well, too. Well, I write middle grade, which is meant to be for eight, 12-year-olds, but I fully acknowledge that quite a lot of teenagers read my middle grade books, because literacy, you know, is a little bit complicated, and my books get studied up to year nine even, which I think is beautiful, because it's a bit more accessible for a range of students of various ability, which I think also it's the story. Yes, I do, because I write for children, I do think about how will this connect to what kids studying, what they're living through in the real world right now, because I do write contemporary realistic fiction. So I think about that a lot. My first solo book was The Year the Maps Changed, which is set in 1999, which having just lived through Book Week, I did Adorably Have Some Students Who Was Calling That The Middle Ages, which really hammered home that 1999 is historic fiction to them. I don't know if I needed that reminder of somebody saying to me back in the Middle Ages, when you didn't have internet, or you had dial up internet, and I was like, thank you so much for that. I've been humbled to an enormous degree now. Just remember, I have a very, very clear memory of no mobile phones. It's great. Absolutely. It's like a glorious memory. So The Year the Maps Changed, my first solo novel, is that in 1999, it deals with a 12 going on 13-year-old girl called Fred, who lives on the Mornington Peninsula Sorento down here in Victoria, and it's the year of the Kosovo War, which was a fairly big event. The Balkan region was very unstable. There was a lot happening in Eastern Europe. The Kosovo War begins, and incredibly, the US and UK begin operation, provide refuge. Flying refugees from the Kosovo War, who are Kosovo Albanian, predominantly Muslim, and they give them refuge. And over here in Australia, John Howard, at the time, was very resistant to doing the same thing, but eventually he buckled, and about 5,000 Kosovo Albanian refugees were flown into Australia, and housed eight different locations around Australia, one of which was at a point in the pee-in on the Mornington Peninsula, which is where I've grown up. And I vaguely remembered this event happening, but I wanted to write about it from the perspective of Fred, who's also going through some tumultuous family things, because her stepfather is re-marrying and having a baby with a new woman, and she's feeling a little bit like she's being drawn off the map of her family. At the same time, the map is shifting overseas, as it really did. We now call it the former Yugoslavia, and it totally rations me to think that there is an entire country that no longer exists, because of a war, because of a conflict. But Operation Safe Haven, as it was called, where the Kosovo Albanian, predominantly Muslim refugees were brought over here, that remains our largest ever humanitarian exercise. It is the one and only time Australia has brought that many refugees into the country in response to a conflict unfolding elsewhere. And I wanted to write about that, because it was my life growing up. So I did that very typical thing of writing true to life, of real memory. But I thought it was worthwhile writing about in the present day, because of the way that the Australian government was treating refugees and asylum seekers to the point that the United Nations has accused us of essentially torture. And I wanted to write about this time in history, 1999, which doesn't, I know it's a long time ago, but it's in my living memory. So it's really not. And I wanted to write about this time where we did the right thing. And why can't we go back there again? So it's through the conceit of this child, Fred, who's going through a lot of our peoples, but she meets a young refugee woman who was pregnant, who comes to her town as part of Operation Safe Haven. And then there's action, but it's very much a commentary in what's happening in the present day, even though it's set in the Middle Ages, 1999. It is, I think what I always write is a kind of big hearted story about family, and recognizing that you are part of a bigger whole in a lot of different ways. So we're all different, yeah, they're all different, and that we can all be global citizens and growing our empathy, etc. So that was my very first book, The The Match Change. And how did you get that published? So I was an agent by the time. Ah, you were an agent, right. It still took me five years to write the thing, because though I'm an agent and though I get to see creativity up close, I am still also a procrastinator. So I spent a good chunk of four years researching in air quotes, which was also me postponing the actual writing, trying not to write it, because of that fear that it would not be as good on the page as it was in my head. But then eventually I came to the conclusion that actually if you want to be a writer, and this is a great tip, you have to write. So I did eventually write a first draft in about three months. And because I was an agent, then I had an idea of two publishers who I'd love to work with. I sent it to both of them. One of them came back and said, we love it, but eliminate the entire Kosovo War storyline and the whole 1999 setting just said it in the present day. And then the other one said, no, I love it all, I know exactly what you're trying to do, and I'd like to publish it. So I went with that one, which was a shit, which is who I was still published by to this day. Yeah. So tell me how many books have you had published and genre? So technically my very, very, very, very first but not solo endeavor was begin and begin a love of white anthology, which was me editing myself and nine other Australian authors, their short stories, that was with Harper Collins. In 2018, 2020 was the end of the map change. 2021 was the monster of her age, which does mean, yes, I had two books come out during lockdowns and COVID. So I had two canceled launches. And then six summers of Tash and Leopold is officially kind of officially my fourth book. And I do always write contemporary fiction, realistic fiction, and always Australian set. So always with an Australian sensibility. And if I had to summarize all of my stories for middle grade and young adult, I always think of there's a John Steinbeck quote from one of my favorite books, which is East of Eden, which the end of the quote is, it is an aching kind of growing. And I think that's always what I write. I write about that point where it's an aching kind of growing, whether that's the transition from childhood into young adulthood or young adulthood into adulthood. I always look for that liminal space and that feeling of transition into a different world and realm, that coming of age. I like that. So you have a combined career. If you were to choose, can I ask you that question? Which one would you choose? If you could only have one? If I could only have one career. Yeah. This is hard because being a literary agent and being a teacher is me giving to other people and then author is kind of selfish. But I probably think a literary agent because it is still very creative. I do still edit with my creators. I do a big structural edit, but I can't deny the thrill that I get from going to a bookshop or a library and seeing all of my friends thinking that I had a little hand in getting them out there in the world. And I think being a literary agent would still be a way that I could get my view of the world across other people. I could still kind of share what I want to see happen in the world, which is more empathy for young people especially. So probably agenting, even though I would miss writing terribly that I like the idea of giving more than taking. And I think being an author is sometimes a little bit selfish, but I won't stop doing it anyway. No, we're almost out of time. I want to ask you just one question too. I think sometimes, and we have a lot of aspiring authors, as you know, listening to this podcast, the matchmaker element of being an agent. Just touch on that a little bit, because I think that's a nuance that not a lot of people know about. Gosh, the matchmaking begins by approaching agents even. And I always say, if you're looking for who you should be approaching, look up books that you think you're similar writing to and read the acknowledgments, read who they're thinking at the back of the book, whether it's a publisher or the agent. And you know what, if somebody has an agent, but they don't thank them in the acknowledgments, that might be a really good hint. Maybe they're not worth their weight in salt. But it's really interesting. I have to see a way forth for a manuscript. I have to really love something and get behind it because I'm sort of treating it like it's my own story as well. I feel that rollercoaster ride when I really want something to get published because I love it. I backed it. I really want to see it in the world. So if I can't see that connection at a manuscript stage, if I can't really get behind and get really excited for something, and maybe it's because it's technically brilliant, but just not my cup of tea. That's a hard no for me. I'm so sorry, but I really have to be dedicated to a story in order to see it through to the final stages of publication potentially. And then also, I think some people don't know what they want from an agent. Do they want someone who's going to be your best friend or someone who's going to be a bit of a taskmaster? You know, you've got to try and figure out how you work together. I never hear much about best friend agents around taskmasters. It's so funny, though, because I literally found one of my best friends, Carly Findlay, from being her agent. So clearly, I'm a bit of a soft touch occasionally, but I do try and adapt to my creators. And I have some creators who want to send me a bundle of five chapters as they write them and they want my constant feedback. And then I have some creators who I don't hear from for two years until they pop up with a completed manuscript and say, "Hey, I'm ready for the next one." I just adapt to them, absolutely. And then, even once you've got an agent, then it's the matchmaking of finding a publishing home for you. That's right. And that's a discussion about, "Do you want to go conglomerate or indie, big or small? How do you work as an editor?" And I represent quite a few neurodiverse creators as well, autistic creators. And we have to be very upfront about how they work best. So can you meet those needs and of this particular creator to get the best out of them? So it's a real matchmaking process. Yeah, it's multi-level, I think. And I think often people don't talk about that. It really is. Whenever you see a finished book, just know that it truly took a village to create it, which I will also say for any emerging writers listening to this, it's very hard to compare yourself to a finished book because of how many people it took to create it. But you yourself, un-agented, unpublished, it's just you, you yourself and I, that's it. So it's very hard, you know, don't go too hard on yourself comparing yourself to finished product books, because they've gone through so much process through an entire village helping to bring them to life. And they're so different to what was submitted. So different, so different. So just go a little bit easy on yourself. Know that it can be accomplished because every book started out as a first draft or just a pie in the sky idea for a creator, or in my case, you know, it started out as a one line on your, on your notes app, on your phone. And then it eventually evolved into a book that is truly incredible, but go a little bit easier on yourself. Don't always compare yourself to a finished product that's been so polished and marketed and perfected over time by many, many hands. Daniel Binks, congratulations on this book called Six Summers of Tash and Leopold and always lovely to chat. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you so much. If you'd like more information about better reading, follow us on Facebook or visit betterreading.com.au This podcast is proudly sponsored by Belinda Audio. Belinda audio books are available on CD and MP3 from online booksellers and book shops everywhere, or you can download from Audible Google Play or the iBook Store. We've also created our own app called Borobox that's available from both the App Store and Google Play. All you need to do to get it working is to download the app, join your local public library and you'll gain access to the world's best collection of e-books and e-audio books available for you to learn on your phone or your personal device. Belinda, we're here to enable you to escape, imagine, grow and be inspired through the power of storytelling. Belinda audio books anywhere, everywhere. How did you actually sleep last night? If it didn't feel like your very best rest, then you need to upgrade to the softest, most luxurious bedding from bowl and branch. 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