Special guest Assad (Assad (@CoverDriveCric) / X) is back on the Last Wicket to discuss the latest happenings in Pakistan cricket and what lies ahead. We talk about the constant upheavals, flailing performances, state of domestic cricket and much more.
The Last Wicket
Checking in on Pakistan Cricket with Assad
He heads back, he heads to back, and stand out, and share the heads together, at the end of the audience! Hey guys, this is Benny. Before we get into this episode's discussion with Asad, I just want to highlight the fact that this conversation occurred before Pakistan's went over England and New Zealand's went over India recently. So, keep in mind that this episode might feel outdated already, but I do believe that the larger points stand, the larger points surrounding Pakistan cricket today, specifically the systemic issues, surrounding administration, infrastructure, player management, and so on. So, in that regard, this conversation with Asad was plenty insightful and offers a nuanced exploration of what ails Pakistan cricket. So, do keep listening for a good conversation with Asad. Hello, and welcome to The Last Wicked. I'm your host, Benny. Thank you for joining us. And today, I'm joined, as always, by my fellow co-host, Mike. Hey, Mike. Hey. And special guest who is back on the podcast for the second time to talk about what can only be considered as an eventful face in Pakistan, cricket. We have podcaster/fan Asad back. Hey, Asad. Hey, hey, Benny. Hey, man. Nice to be back with you guys. Nice to be nice to talk to you again. How are you feeling? Let's start with that, because, you know, sorry to put you on the spot, but from the perspective of an Indian cricket fan, it's kind of a weird position to be in where the Indian men's team are doing really well, you know, formats, just, you know, recently concluded this thrashing of the Bangladesh team. And so it's kind of an interesting situation where we can appreciate the team's performances and not really have too many complaints. And then we look across the pond and it seems like Pakistan has, you know, their own stuff that they're going through. So I think let's just hear from you. How are you feeling as a fan, just with everything that's been going on in Pakistan, cricket recently? Well, Pakistan cricket, I've been watching this and sounds like five, five years old. Yeah, obviously back then I didn't feel I wasn't really privy to the inner workings of how stuff works. So you kind of just watched the cricket. And as you grew older, you kind of start diving deeper. And you kind of get to a point where you realize that the system behind all of this is just messed up to the point where growing up a lot of the time, I think maybe we're just bad at this sport. And now I've got into a point where I'm like, we're not bad at it. It's just the people in charge are never going to let things take its take their course. Lots of chaos, lots of shops and changes all the time. And actually, for a few years in between, I would say somewhere around probably from 2017 to 2022, there was a phase of like five years where you. There was still little things here and there which I feel like every team has those every cricket board has its kinks. But there was a phase where box anchor looked like there was some sort of structure going on, you had a new domestic system, you had that domestic system producing a lot of players who do play for box time today. The PSL was giving you talent. The likes of fuckers of mine, Shallab Khan, like these are people who have played a bit of domestic beforehand, but they really shown on that stage and things seem to be heading on the right trajectory, but as you pointed out the last two years or so. It seems like everything's falling apart and box thunder get is once again on fire and that's something that we've seen quite a bit over the course of the last two decades. So as far as what I feel right now is. I would say I don't think I felt more disconnected as a fan throughout my time watching this team because it's one thing to be losing teams go through their ups and downs but then there's another thing where you're losing and the way you're losing. Ran on top of that you have your cricket board trying to make scapegoats left, right at the center, the players themselves not big up to standard. And it's just a whole mess, honestly, for any cricket fan. It's just, I think it's just a very depressing state of affairs right now. Yeah, you've had multiple captains, multiple sets of selectors, both presidents that have changed and you have a unique coaching arrangement as well for across the different formats. And we're just talking about the last two years or so. So what is the, I mean, you kind of talked about your perspective on on it all, but I'm curious about the general sense among the general fans of wakasane cricket, like when you talk with other fans, either online or in person. Is there anyone among you who's like more optimistic that it can only get better from here or do you think you need to still go through more some more painful times before. You know, looking on the other side. Um, I don't know if you guys are familiar with that meme on circles around a lot on Pakistan, whether it's like the bad days are over, it's time for even worse days now. So I feel like we've been there in the fans at one point, but yes, we are aware. Yeah, so I honestly don't see much to be on one hand. I could say that, okay, it can get any worse than it already is. But I said that when we, that's I said that when you lost to the USA, I'm like, I don't think it can get any worse than this. And then we go on to lose a test series and home to Bangladesh and cricket can keep, like this can, I am not going to say it can get any worse because I've said that multiple times over the last year and it's proceeded to get worse. Um, I don't think there's a lot of optimism around Pakistan cricket right now and. Part of the reason for that is just the way the cricket board is run. Um, now I'm someone who gives a really hard time to the players and frankly I'm not. Well, I'm interacting with other fans. I've not all these come across as very popular with my opinions, but I do think there is a sense of responsibility that these players also hold for not. Up holding themselves to a certain standard, whether that's with their own skills as a cricketer, whether it's with their fitness, whether it's with their fielding, or the last two years there's been over the last three years now you in two years I'll say there's been like a really high sense of complacency and I'll come, I'll mention why that is when we get a bit further into this podcast but. I think the main issue is the way the board is run. Your cricket chairman is also the minister of interior of the country. And that's apart from the prime minister that's the most important office. Possibly in the in the whole country, maybe along with finance so you have a guy who's like, basically handling your entire city security apparatus. And at the same time he's trying to run your cricket team so. On, I don't know what other example I can think of. I mean, it sounds like it's from the 90s playbook. I mean, this is how it was for most Asian countries, I feel, and it's still happening with Pakistan. But let's drill down to the specifics. So Mike, why don't you. Yeah, so I mean, I think you mentioned a couple of interesting examples you said, you know, the loss to the US and the 2020 World Cup. Obviously that was a one off game and, you know, with T 20 being a more fickle format. It's understandable having a bad day or something like that. Now Pakistan have not won the 11 consecutive test matches at home, which is a joint longest streak for them since it last happened back in 1975. To your point, they're not, they're not a team that does not have talented cricketers. And while I understand some of the issues around, you know, just terrible boat tactics from the board 26 or 25 different selectors in the last three or some something ridiculous. I couldn't believe it's 25 but it's somewhere around that number. What's happening on the field, I guess, what, what, where are they lacking on the field, which, because to me, sure they England is a good side and they're going to they were always going to push Pakistan but to losing to Bangladesh who although have improved substantially. I would, I would argue are still on paper at least not as good aside as Pakistan was. Yeah, I think you're spot on like, not with respect to Bangladesh but seeing where they are as a destination and comparing to, I wouldn't say we are a great destination either as you mentioned we haven't won one in 11. But this looking at the talent on offer, whether it's up to leisure fee, barbarism, on others one, China for you to seem shut. When you see both names on your roster you should be expecting to beat one of the lower ranked teams. But all credit to Bangladesh, of course, like I watch those games and they played some really good cricket that some really good plans set up against us and they exploited some weaknesses that having pretty evident to anyone who watches Pakistan cricket. And even historically speaking we're not a team that's really been good at playing short, short pitch bowling. Most of your batteries that come through the domestic system, they're pretty solid on their front foot, but their back foot technique is not the greatest when you compare to other countries and I think that's the case for a lot of South Asian countries, even India until the likes of Coley, Rohit and Paul came along I think that's something most, most teams like Australia used to exploit when we would tour their shores and they still do that in Pakistan goes on their shores because you don't really have anyone who can deal with that. So there's that another issue is that they are Pakistan's create Pakistan's batting stocks at this moment, are completely devoid of anyone being able to play spin in a competent manner, which is very uncharacteristic you go back in time like it's the greatest of Pakistan missed power hub, you and has come on the mom abusive and so and so like one thing he and his mom, another one like these are all guys that you could count like if you, if you pitch the ball up to them, they were going to take you to the cleaners like you couldn't as a spinner you just had to watch out for them, but now you have the issue where that's not the case anymore, and they really struggle with playing the spin and I'll take you guys back to the T20 World Cup in the US, obviously I know we're talking about tests but just as an example to extrapolate, I was actually present for that game between India and Pakistan in New York. And we had some really nice Indian fans sitting right next to us. And one of them was asking me like what's awesome kind doing in your team like that's not that guy is not fair enough to be playing at an international level. I'm like I mean you're not wrong, but the fact of the matter is when you when you look at all the numbers across all of Pakistan's domestic competitions and if you especially look at the PSL which is like the highest form of their of domestic cricket we have. Azam Khan is the only player who's consistently striking at about 140 against against spin. So fact of the matter is, in an ideal world, would you take someone with that fitness in your team know but what are your resources you don't have them so that's an in test cricket that gets exploited even more when you have a 45 pitches where the cracks are opening up there's rough patches. You need to be able to have a solid spin game and we simply don't have that and that translates into my next point where it's why is that it's because you don't have quality spinners at domestic level, which translates into Pakistan's national team we don't have enough spinners to be playing in our team. We have a broad but he's facing injury issues but beyond him. There's no one quite ready for test level yet and that translates in the quality of matters you produce for your team. Yeah and I find it pretty interesting because a bar was the example that came to mind as you were saying that and obviously he's out I think sick with viral fever or something for this next test but. I think there's definitely been a dip in terms of spinners because you know again growing up. We also from like somebody like much like Emma who was such a great spinner was always a second spinner to somebody like. And you know just the quality of depth that Pakistan cricket had in terms of spin and baseballing to be honest both was just amazing like there would be all rounders like Abdul Raza can you know somebody who's currently involved. As are my mood who are always there. So is it a case of, I mean obviously spin batting sure is missing because there's not depth and spinners but how are the other departments doing from a depth perspective. I would say that twice Pakistan struggled a lot and I think part of the reason there's it's not that there's not enough options to have a proper depth, your charts. One thing that the PCB has done right one of the very few things is that they've been organizing a lot more eight hours recently so the Pakistan Shahins they've been going to Australia to Sri Lanka. So this is a place like this and and you've had like the second tier of players playing there. But that's only just started this is something that should have been happening for a while now and I know Australia England India all the top teams have been doing this for years now. And on top of that if you look at T 20 by later on a lot of teams use those to test out their bench strength. So you will probably see Australia India England anytime they go for a TV series. So I think there'd be tier of players to like get some exposure at the highest level. The issue for Pakistan is they've been so hesitant to do that. They only did it once last year against Afghanistan and we lost that series. But the issue is that a lot for top teams these days is bilateral series are unless they're part of the CDC they're not the results aren't worth anything it's more so about building your combination. Unfortunately, you could have one loss, like I remember just after that first you 20 we lost to Afghanistan, you had the media. Pulling out the pitchforks and be like what's going on was this. Why is this happening you have the expert is coming out of what's wrong what's happening to Pakistan cricket. And I think there's a very lack, high lack of understanding of how modern cricket works cricket has come a long way this is in the 90s. This isn't even the early, I would say even till the mid 2010s bivattros meant a lot to teams, but they don't really mean that anymore you need to be using these bivattros to test out what you have as your backup. And we've seen Pakistan have faced issues because of this so if you go back last year. So I got injured right before the word yeah I woke up, and you had no you had no backup, like to take us another he was way back past his best with the white ball. And Shahina free the year before he was not ready for the key to any world cup but. Ramiz Raja the chairman was persistent and rushing him back and he's not been the same baller ever since because he re injured himself. Yeah, I'm not saying my point would be that there's not a lack of talent it's just, you're not, you're not creating the proper pathways for that talent to develop any player who comes into the box 19. You don't see their skill level increase 90% of the time, if a player if a young promising player comes in, chances are six months down the line he's going through a back patch and he gets dropped and he's back in like purgatory and playing for some random domestic team for the for like the rest of his career. So yeah I think you talked about pathways you touched on pathways a little bit and one of the things that the PCB at least the recent PCB chairman has done is introduce champions cup, which is, I believe, I don't know if it's ODI or ODI and T20 both all three formats, all three formats okay I found that interesting because in my mind like Pakistan has a limited oversight is still a very good side short like the recent T20 World Cup. But at the end of the day PSL is a very good standard league, and to add one more league to that didn't to me at least didn't make too much sense. And especially the ODI chapter because I feel like at this point we are none of the major nations really spend a ton of time, one worrying about ODI tournaments. I guess good though, good that time have been better used by introducing a longer format which is where they seem to be struggling the most. And the other question that comes to mind is I know Pakistan has been very hesitant as far as providing, you know, providing people, allowing people to participate in foreign leagues. Because that is obviously a great place to learn their skills, you know, CPL other places obviously they don't participate in the IPL but all these other leagues are, you know, great places to learn skills and track with other players. And even there Pakistan has been very, very hesitant to let their players participate. So thoughts on these two and do you think this is also contributing to that lack of depth. I don't necessarily disagree with having a one day tournament I think it's just the timing of it. Now you're entering your test season for the next I think the next. So right now we have we had so just before this we had the Bangladesh series now we have the England series and then we're going to South Africa in December and I believe we're playing Western these in tests in January. Not too sure about that one but I'm pretty sure it's scheduled somewhere in the first few months of the year. Now ideally speaking, you want to structure your domestic season in a way where it complements your international schedule so if you're about to have the home test season. The smart thing to do is what would be to do that for do the first class competition first. And this is where PCB is kind of all over the place. There's essentially two parallel domestic systems functioning right now in the country. You have this new Champions Cup, and I would say it's not really new and as such it's just, they've recycled the structure that was introduced during the machine con administration, which was like six regional teams. With second 11 playing all three formats. But essentially what happened was from a governmental level, they had an instruction to get rid of that system and reintroduce the departmental system. And I'm not sure if something like this has existed in India or not, but essentially it's departments are all these government state on enterprises so you're whatever state, like your state banks banks for city corporations. So essentially how it works is that they let these players play for them in the competitions and in return these players get employment for the off season. So, with these with these companies. So, this system's been around in Pakistan since the 60s. And it had it had its place back then obviously the economies of the world were completely different thing back then you not like cricket was not as lucrative that person could just like focus on it all the time. But it's been outdated for a good two decades at this point and I think in 2019, when Imran Khan became the prime minister he was the one who gave the director to get rid of it. And ever since then there's been a lot of like outdoor outdoor from media and from like some of the beneficiary so that system that they're like oh you took away the likelihoods of cricketers and I sympathize with that I think the way that they transition from the old system to the new was a bit rushed, it could have been better executed. But at the end of the day that new system was giving Pakistan a lot of benefits because some of the guys playing the team right now. Like Salman Aliaga is probably one of the best players performance wise for Pakistan right now. And he was pretty much an unknown commodity before that new system came around. So, it did reduce the amount of teams because the departmental system had like pretty two teams. And this new system had just six again I think that was a bit too less considering Pakistan's population, but again a step in the right direction. And now what happened when Imran Khan went and the new prime minister came in, he was like restore the departments. Was the system, and they tried it for a year and the standard was absolutely terrible like I watched some of those games and genuinely I could not watch it because it was such a little standard of cricket and that was supposed to be our optimistic competitions outside. The PSL I don't really count it as domestic because you do have players of other nationalities come in as well. But, so it's really hurting those and now they've sort of recognized that they made a blunder. So to just keep the government happy they have that one system still happening so there is actually another one day cup happening right now in Pakistan. It's called the president's cup that's the departmental tournament. And on the other hand you have a champions cup which is basically the old domestic system recycled and then what kind of he said be kind of admitting that yeah we made a blunder but we don't really want to admit it. Sorry that was really long. Dangent. Well, yeah I'm not sure how like selection becomes easy when there's like two sets of, you know, matches going on that everything gets more convoluted. It's not good for the players either because that's just so much cricket happening. Right. It just sounds very complex and confusing for everyone concerned, almost like models your objectives like what are we aiming to do are we aiming to just develop like short term like you know successes are we thinking long term. That doesn't seem to be any kind of strategic vision behind any of these. And then there isn't I would say because it's all short term like you, you said that there's no space right like there is no space for long term thinking in Pakistan cricket because a chairman comes in. First of all none of these Germans have anything to do with cricket. And when he went when they do like them he's right I was a particular but I would say out of all of our recent chairman he did the most damage to the steam. And we can expand on that a bit later if needed but even the last year we've had like four different chairman each chairman's come in sack the coaching staff brought in his own. And then the players have no continuity. Because they don't know what like they don't know what they're dealing with they could go to sleep today and next morning they wake up and the chairman's gone and then the captain's gone and then this whole cycle repeats itself. So it's always going to be short term visions because all of these chairman want to leave their mark on Pakistan cricket they want to be remembered. And the decisions they make it's, it's, it's taken out of like wanting to leave a legacy but instead it just ends up harming Pakistan cricket because. And I'm not saying that Pakistan is the only place with very governmental figures to take apart like the BCCI has Jay Shah but, you know, what what India does do is that, why they do have political figure at the top. And if you're getting decisions are being taken by people who are really entrenching the system for a very long time so, even if you change the figurehead, whatever happens below as to, like as usual versus Pakistan, where the chairman comes in he'll tear up the entire domestic system and if all the coaches all the trainers everyone's like not doing it anymore. Yeah, and that's, I mean, and that's what I really wanted to, I mean, for me that's the most fascinating part and all of that's, all of what's going on in Pakistan cricket is the leadership because if, if you notice for the English cricket team, the Indian cricket team. They've had so much success, you know, across the formats, and the one common thing between these two teams is the leadership, right, like I'm talking about on field leadership be the captain or the coach. With England, it seems like once Brandon McCollum came on board just the attitude transformed the results came along with it. And whether you like it or not, I mean they have really kind of redefined batting and test cricket. And the same thing with the Indian cricket team, you know, first under Rahul David and I would go to them can be, there seems to be a seamless transition of that, where, and in the meantime, we have with Sharma, under whose leadership, the team has just continued to evolve and get better and better and I, and I really think the captaincy and the coaching for both these teams and we're not even talking about Australia yet. It's such an important part in cricket, you know, the people who lead you and do they inspire you. So, and then we look at Pakistan there's been all these changes. So I wanted to ask you about like your satisfaction with just the personnel at the moment. So, obviously you had Mickey Arthur on and off and now you have Gary Kirsten Jason Gillespie. I think I was remember this still around he's, he seems like the one, a constant in the coaching set up for years. And then the captaincy, you know, for the longest time, Bob Ross was captain, then it seems like Shaheena freebie was the new captain for the shortest amount of time. And Bob Ross was back, now Sean was through this captain of the test team, now has the limit over. So we don't know. I mean, we don't know the players don't seem to know or even the board doesn't seem to know who should be leading them. But as a fan, how are you taking stock of the leadership, like on field leadership and what would you like to see. I think on a few leadership wise, Pakistan's options are few far in between. And again, that goes back to the issue with pathways. I probably start from the top where Pakistan was considered to be thriving, which is 2021 to 22. Starting with that T20 World Cup victory against India now, obviously massive achievement, they haven't beaten them before and everyone was pumped. I was pumped. My friends were inviting. We were all really happy with what was happening. But what happened there essentially was before that tournament. Our coaches were missbell, our head coach was missbell and the bullying coach was. And what happened over the summer of 2021 was that what seemed con was in charge as the CEO of box on cricket and I think he was very integral in bringing some sort of stability to the cricket board and adding some proper structure to it. And he made a lot of changes, knowing that how unpredictable about Sandra get is, he read at the Constitution and made a bunch of changes to make sure that even if he was to abruptly get removed. It would take a lot of work to undo the work he's doing. But unfortunately, what happens and what happens a lot and I would say all these some content doubts because like no one cares about cricket as much as the subcontinent does right like in India or Pakistan if your cricket team is not doing that. You could go to look like any corner of the street and you'll find a person depressed about it like that's just how emotionally attached to we are to it. And it's a great thing. I think it's amazing. I think the cricket life is Australia, Australia could win the next five World Cups and no one's going to no one's going to care when when Steve Smith lands in the airport. But essentially what ends up happening was that there was a lot of pressure from the media. Even though like you could see that the structure was input in place, but the Prime Minister abruptly decided, Oh, I need a new chairman. And he moved to a son money, a son money was supposed to stay on. But then he cited personal reasons he's that I'm too old like I'm going to be moving on. That was a really important moment because in Hong Kong decided to go with the Ramis Raja. Now Ramis Raja was a whole new. New sort of personality to be placing a son money, a son money was someone who was really happy to just be sitting in the background making sure that, you know, everything's going as it's supposed to any kind he gave a really free hand to a scene con to like redo the whole structure because obviously he came from the county system so he knew he had experience as a cricket administrator and he was the right person to be doing making those kinds of decisions. But Ramis came in and he's like, he don't was he concentrated that I'm going to be doing everything now like I'm not here to sit around. First thing he did was tell the coaches that you guys can be calling the shots anymore, the captain will be because in Ramis's eyes he wanted to make barbarism the next Imran Khan. Because unfortunately a lot of box sounds cricket, former cricketers are still in that hangover from 1992 where they're still looking for that next Imran Khan various cricket doesn't work like that anymore. The captain is just there to lead on the field, and he has a whole backroom stuff running the show for him behind behind the scenes, whether it's your data analysts whether it's your coaches. So miss buying what car resigned because they obviously didn't want to be pocket coaches because they're like if we get knocked out in the World Cup you're just going to believe us for us and sack it. A pairtaker coach was a sandwich stock. And Pakistan going into that tournament were in chaos. But what ended up happening is you beat India, and all you need to beat India you won all five group games and you went to the semifinals and you lost so whatever changes were being made beforehand, where work came because that's how we got there. But the call of the credit for that ended up going to Ramis and to supply stock and supply stock was made the permanent head coach and this is where all the problems kind of started. Because number one second was in there to really make any calls he was just there as a man manager. For us and was given complete control, whether it was on selections, whether it was on tactics, and Pakistan made some errors in that semi final in 2021, which they just refused to learn from because you didn't have a proper coach in place. And that's where the complacency said, and Bobber and Rizwan were awarded this untouchable status where it's like, there's no way Pakistan's going to play without these two opening the batting. So it's not about affecting me in the 20s, but quickly you could see the impact rolling over into other formats. So if you go to the 2022 test series against Australia at home. That's the first time you really saw the August on speeches really taking a turn for the worse. Now they've never been the best like this is a misconception where everyone's like oh what happened, Pakistan's pitches, it was the same in the 2000s it's just cricket wasn't there for 10 years. But you kind of just forgot what Pakistan's pitches behave like, but you did have who really good pitches in the country one was in Raul Pindy. And one was in Karachi. Nowadays Raul Pindy is known for being a flat road but Raul Pindy when prepared right is the most fast ball or friendly pitch in the entire country whether it's in terms of balance whether in terms of movement. And so it's completely undid all of that just because they were, but because Rames didn't want us to get trapped by Australia. And that kind of started a whole domino effect of come off just of just reinforcing mediocrity in the team. There is what go out of form and Pakistan has had this issue where they give up on players too early. Now the issue is that they don't know when to give up their break they've gone to the other extreme. And the players have now been performing for a while, but you will still see them in the team because the captain wants to back them and Babar was a big. Now I blame Babar a lot, but I blame Rames even more for empowering Babar like that was Babar does not have that tactical acumen to be holding that much power as a captain. So because of the whole cult of personality that was built on Babar, you never really prepared any other leaders for the day where he would eventually have to go and if I was chairman he would have been sacked way before. So that's the end of 23, because clearly he was not willing to go along with modern, the modern way of captaining the team, whether that's through data through matchups, etc. So by the time Babar got sacked, half of your team was already out of form, and no one was really ready to step into that way. And that's what you see today you have Sean Masuda as your test captain, whereas I would argue Sean probably shouldn't even be in the team. He's just scored a 150 but that's just one innings. If you look at the last five 78 matches before that he was consistently a month like amongst the worst performers on the team. And similarly in white wall, Shaheen came in for five games. And then out of nowhere a new chairman comes in and he's like, I want to expect that to destroy the next single man, how that dominated was bucks on getting knocked out in the group stages of the World Cup of the 2020 World Cup. And that's where Babar, I think really messed up to overthrow someone who had really backed him when he was traveling as a captain, and just coming in and taking his captain see after five games. I think that that didn't get the respect a lot of Fox 90s after Babar as a, as a player. And that kind of brings, sorry, I'm going in circles right now but there's just so much that's been going on in the background that I'm just curious. No, it makes sense. I mean, there's a lot has happened. I'm just curious why. Pakistan is never really considered Riz one he seems like, you know, well liked, even among his teammates and seems to be very popular with fans. Is there any reason that he's never seriously been considered. So Riz one does not have too many fans in the cricket board, as far as I'm aware, I can't really go into the specifics of it but essentially what happened last year was. Right, I don't know if you guys were following the new cycle but until like the World Cup in India, Pakistan's players were playing without central contracts for like a couple of months. And the reason for that was there was like a huge deadlock box on flares are very underpaid. When you look at the amount of money that the board generates. Obviously they don't generate as much as the big three but outside the big three PCB is probably the richest cricket board in the world. But there is barely get like any any portion of that so. The players were playing a lot of hardball and the thing was that Baba Rizwan and Shahin were at the forefront of that, where they were demanding that they get that all the players get a chunk of the TV revenue that the PCB gets. And eventually the PCB that came in, which was a major moment for player power in Pakistan which has not existed. So, Rizwan was really and the thing was Rizwan and Baba belong to the same player agency and they were, Rizwan especially had had a hand in that so he was kind of singled out for it, even though he wasn't the only one leading the front. They needed a scapegoat and they made Rizwan that scapegoat so when Shahin when when Baba was sacked, logic would have dictated that Rizwan should have been the captain but. That's the secret made the captain and even now. They look at what you have Rizwan is still the only option you really have for captain see especially in tests and only eyes. T20s I think you can still can gamble on someone young. But for the longer formats you definitely need someone who's been. No basis. Knowing Pakistan and how they have done recently I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to the sub froze has. Captain. Yeah, I don't think I saw it but set for us was sitting in on that selection committee meeting two days ago, while being an active part of the squad because he's a mentor in the champion. And then after that meeting he was dropped from the squad so. I don't know that he was he was he sitting like yeah I'm going to drop myself. Yeah, it was it's a mess so yeah Rizwan should I do the captain but there's a lot of board politics involved that I don't know I think they might finally go to him now because they've kind of exhausted every option to avoid it. But yeah it's been it's been quite it's been quite the run around. I also find it interesting and I'm glad you mentioned the money aspect of it because you're right like Pakistan cricket does not generate the money that the big three does but at the same time it's not like they're, you know, not making any money whatsoever. There's obviously as you said, don of interest and and one of the things that strikes me as pretty crazy is they have, I think the broadcasting deal that the PCB had for a two year period was worth six and a half million US dollars. And they decided to appoint these five mentors including sir for a really high salary which amounts to $2.7 million. And so I mean I guess that to me just those my mind is when you think about, you know, let's say any coaches salary there's no chance in the world that no matter how high profile the coaches let's say I'll drop it for example. There is no chances earning anywhere close to what the top players in the Indian cricket team are earning. That just seems wrong considering the resources that they have. And I think the other aspect that you mentioned, you know, political interference. You're right it's absolutely there on the Indian side as well. But I think the issue that the reason we don't see that being an issue on a day to day basis is at the end of the day India has enough money to play around with. So if got them the mirror or in previous years, Robert wanted to come up and say, hey, we need more of this, they had enough money to throw around and be like, yeah, I'll do that and still not, you know, care. And to me it feels like there also needs to be better utilization of the money that's being generated. But for some reason, these five people who are probably, you know, either respected or our friends with the board, whatever the reasoning is, are being given a major chunk of the pie without actually even being out there on the field. And I don't even think about these the issue here because PCB has money to throw around that's never been the issue. In fact, I don't know about the current figures, but I think until two years ago, especially post PS of the PCBs been operating at a profit, and they've, they've been operating at a surplus so there's money they're not even dipping their toes into. Now, when you look at 2.7 US dollars, a million dollars US dollars. There is so much that could be achieved at a grassroots level with that kind of money, because the issue with the Pakistan cricket team isn't just what's happening with the national team like okay yeah the coaching situation, the Chairman's, that's obviously to playing a part. But if you look at the talent centers in Pakistan traditionally you had Karachi, Lahore, we were near town centers. Now what's changed over the last decade is that that town center has shifted to the KP province so the shower and the surrounding areas. The reason for that is from right, that seems up from North yeah so not quite near there but like, not quite shower but like, like we're there somewhere around there, you know, so I don't worry around that area. And same with Shaheen Rizwan, if the car who's been playing a lot for us fuckers, fuckers, originally from there, even though he played a lot of this cricket in Karachi. So, and even like mama go seem juniors aman Khan, all of these players like I would say like 80% of Pakistan's national tool right now is from that province. And the reason for that is because the government there really invested a lot of money on building grounds at schools in parks so on where, where youngsters could own their craft. And then while if you look at Karachi and Lahore, the the colony of talent coming through there has like drastically reduced because there is just not enough grounds for kids to be playing that because obviously these are urban centers like Karachi you could pretty much equate with Mumbai as an example where it's such a spread out city and there's barely any space to like build anything anymore. But whatever existing grounds that are, they're in a terrible condition so a lot of the, a lot of the places you can't even play with spikes because the pitches are so worn out. Now, when you look at $2.7 million, the smart thing would be is to invest on these grounds getting them up to speed so that players at under 1600 13 level like they have the right facilities, or you can upskill your coaches, because the coaching techniques used in Pakistan are still quite outdated the way of fast bowling is coached. Most of our bowlers who come through the ranks, they end up having, when they do debut for Pakistan, whether it's a 119 or international level, it's very obvious that the biomechanics aren't right. And their actions are very injury prone it's because no one coaches these things at a younger level because no one knows about them. But Pakistanis are naturally just really good at fastball and because we have that whole tape all cricket scene which just means that, that just helps and having more speed by regardless. So, rather than investing out in the grassroots infrastructure they're paying these five mentors who I don't even know what they're, I don't know what their job is essentially. I miss about has coaching experience so he has a lot he can teach these kids. Sakhlan has enough coaching experience where you couldn't let him get away with it. What car units has been Pakistan sports three times and each time he's left the team worse off. Sir for us hasn't even retired yet so I don't know what exactly his qualifications are. Troy mother hasn't officially retired yet either so, again it's just, it's just money or throwing into a hole where you could like invested in more longer term projects again no chairman's going to do that. Because if you compare it again I'm going to bring them back to comparison with India where while India does have political interference I think there's enough stability at a government level where they can still get away with it. I'm not getting into the politics of all this but just like, it's like a fact I can have the same government for 10 years now. So, whatever guys at the top he knows he's not he doesn't have any tone breeding up his neck or is this for us unfortunately there's a lot of chopping and changing at that level. And it's a reality we have to live with, but I think there's ways where the PCB can strengthen its constitution to minimize that impact but unfortunately no one's willing to take that step yet. One of the things you briefly mentioned was, you know, knowing when to cut off players. Having said, heard some of the recent news and you know so, Shaheen Afridi Naseem Shah and Babarazim have been, well I shouldn't say dropped they've been arrested apparently for the second test, which Pakistan must win if they have to stay alive in the series. And that's on that and I guess, you know, dropping people for their performance obviously that's nothing, you know, out of the ordinary. But these are not, you know, these are not every day, these are not, you know, newcomers to the side these are probably the most established and one would argue the most talented three players in the squad so thoughts on that and where do you see that heading. This is something both India and Pakistan have in common where players don't get dropped, they either have a muscle issue or they have a viral fever, or they're just being arrested or missing for personal reasons. Yeah, under I don't know why they dodge around that word drop so much but it is how it is. I would see with Babar, did he deserve to be dropped. I think there's a lot of arguments that yes he did considering how he's been playing for the last couple of months now. I would say maybe even the last year and a half he hasn't really had any statement performances, and I think they were fair to be sticking with him because when you have a player of that stature you do give them as long for rope as you possibly can but eventually there has to be a time where you're like standard I don't read like regardless of what your stature as a player is. It's not working out or take some time off, play some domestic cricket if you have to. There's a way to go about it. Now, doing it in the middle of a series, that's where things get really, really messy because you're, when you take a, when you take out a senior player from your dressing room, it's going to it's going to shake things up now. So I would say that, let's say India were playing the border Gavaskar trophy, and like, and then after the second test that they're like, Oh, Coli is not scoring so he's gone. Now that's going to have an impact I'm not saying that they're the same level of player but the stature that they provide each of their teams. And I'm saying this as someone who's not been barbers biggest fan for the last year in fact, as long as he was captain, you would be finding at least five tweets for asking for me to asking for him to get sacked literally every day. But there is a way to go about it I think if you wanted to drop him it should have been before the series or after the series doing admit series makes no sense and it helps no one. Shahin and the seem, I can't understand for the life of me okay they weren't taking wickets but, did you look at what that pitch that pitch was not giving them anything even though they were trying their best. And I seem even managed to guess. Were they, we'll be also taking wickets either. Exactly and it only happened in the second innings that England got through us but that's because they were bowling at us. Now if you had Shahin and the same ball to our top six, I'm sure they would get a few few wickets too because the way some of our batters got out was just. There was nothing great about England's bowling it was just like really, really stupid batting on our corporate. So, again I have no idea what they're doing there. They're just trying to, I think a lot of this is to show the players where the power lies, which is with the PC and as I mentioned last year there was this situation with the whole contract, contract standoff and ever since then the PC has been trying to take advantage of the downturn in performances because at that point, Boston was performing quite well so they didn't truly have much to stand on against the players but now that the performances are down. They're using whatever chance they get examples of certain players and be like rear the ones with the power rather than you. I want to talk on pitches. Usually I'm not a believer in talking too much about pitches because I feel like all sorts of pitches result in, you know, test of different types of skills and all that and that's why I think, you know, high and bouncy breakdown is just as fair as a low and spinny one at Kanpur but yeah Pakistan's pitches have been incredibly flat to think you touched on it. Recently and I find it surprising that they've gone to the route like you mentioned or made the decision to make those pitches flat for the Australia series, which is kind of opposite to how I've, you know, we've seen most teams prepare a home pitch that'll advantage them so whether it's a spinning track in India, whether it's a seeming track in, you know, in a bouncy track in the South and South Africa. Most teams have been saying we're going to prepare juicy pitches because we know our players can do more, our bowlers can do more of those compared to the opposition, no matter how good the opposition is. Pakistan seem to have taken sort of a back step towards it and they've been more defensive. Is that, I guess, a first statement and, you know, do you think there's maybe scope for being a little more versatile with them and maybe, you know, you mentioned other pitches which are good in the country. So maybe hosting matches in some other locations. Yeah, no, I 100% agree with you and I think they happen defensive and that's been the case ever since that game against Australia, all the way back in 2022. Now the context behind that was Shaheen was out. Yeah, he was, and for us and was out and injury and they're pretty much panicked and they created the flattest pitch ever out of fear that they would lose and I think that was the wrong way to go about it. You need to be backing your backup players and you're going to give them something to work with. I'm a famous leader. I was called out on this by a journalist and this is a bunch of you guys want to see about her score a century and I'm like if that's the guy running the cricket affairs in my country I can only wonder what goes on behind the scenes. It's been happening ever since the fact that these pitches, a lot of these pitches were not terrible and then domestic level, especially you'll see a lot of games that have scores going all the way up to 700 and that needs to be rectified and it's on. Right, I think you need to be investing money into fixing the pitches, a domestic level, especially because that's where your time. But the issue is they've been trying to do so much. They've been the thing with the thing is they think that they can make one massive change that just changes everything for them and that's not how it works. You need to be looking at it at a very microscopic level so look at your curators, what level of training do they have you need to upskill them because you know excavations of all science nowadays. On top of that, you need to be. Give something for your bowlers because, on one hand, I'm mad that they drop Shaheen in the scene but on the other hand I'm glad they drop Shaheen in the scene I don't want them to be toiling for like 30 overs on a piss that's giving them absolutely nothing because that's how the injuries happen. So, I think what they need to do is identify your test centers and I think they've done that already there's not many. There's not a lot of stadiums up to like that level right now. But the ones that are probably Cindy and Karachi and these have always been the most result oriented pitches in Pakistan. You have Miltan, which was pretty recent oriented last year, or the year before England, the year before when England came. A brother got a 74 on that pitch on day one so you have something there as well but I don't know what they tried to do this time. They left a little bit too much grass on it and the cracks just didn't open up. So, you have the first and they've hired a new chief curator he's some guy Australian guy Tony Heming. He used to be the the by the by stadium curator so he's worked with Pakistan before and during an era where we were quite successful so I think you just need to make some changes and give it them time to play out because nothing's going to change overnight, whether that's what the pitches or you just need to give things time to work themselves out. I think that's a great point because I, you know, one of the things that I've noticed in the last five, six years and I complain about the BCCI and all the million things that they don't get right all the time but one of the things that they've done really well is expanding on, you know, just programs that empires and coaches at the junior level do and I'm sure pitch curators are part of it, although I've not come across specific education around that. But, but there are courses at the NCA where somebody like Ralph Robert and VVS Lakshman they'll go in and teach how to coach players and various approaches around it and it's, it's a lot more than just academic interest. There's always a certification things and that's exactly what Pakistan needs in my opinion, they need that sort of scaling for the coaches because the coaching is not up to standard. Right. Yeah, so it sounds like coaching is one aspect curators might be also covered there. I guess we didn't, we don't need to talk about empires specifically to the topic we're talking but it probably doesn't hurt to have that on the aspiring side as well. And then, you know, just the pitch conversation I think the only reason I feel it really matters is India used to have that issue where we did not have a lot of pasers. And in the last, you know, decade and a half we've seen that change, and it's changed one because of fitness standards and proven substantially but also in domestic circuit India started producing a lot more juicy wickets and. So when, you know, I just remember I rocks up to South Africa with like nine first class games, first as debut he knows the length to bowl. He's, this is not, you know, something that, that is a surprise to him and also he has the control to actually execute that. So I do think there's a lot of structural changes but definitely will require patience as you were saying. I feel like this has been a funeral for Pakistan cricket in this podcast recording. So, also tell me, is there something that's exciting for you about Pakistan cricket something that gives you a hope, something that gives something that is like light at the end of the tunnel for you. I think, probably, we have to write competent coaches right now and Gary Kirsten's no slouch you guys will know that. Pointing guys the World Cup. I was Jason Gillespie so I think these are two guys who have given the right amount of power which I don't know how clearly glass people's not happy with Baba being dropped so there might be a couple of issues there. But I think these are two guys who can really help but beyond that I think, I think the one thing that Pakistan cricket's been through worse like I know this looks really bad but there's been worse than this that's happened to us so the talent always gets it gets gets us through and I think cricket has gotten to a point where talent isn't enough because there's just so much science that goes into it now whether it's numbers whether it's video analysis. You could you could pull up footage for a debut time who was never played for Pakistan is only played first class you could find if you're a rival if you're opposing teams on this you could pull it up and just be like yeah this is these are as we can start it in here. So talent, I'm not going to be enough but I think just the level of talent and there's a couple of exciting guys coming through under 19 level right now. I think for whether that's a must, must are cons not at under 19 but he's been performing a lot in domestic level across the first class and 50 overs. Meramam Thaz is a spinner to look out for he's another one who's really exciting. And a couple of guys who weren't quite fulfilling their promise are also still climbing up the ranks so he had the rally, he was someone who was very promising and he's had a sort of a mini resurgence recently. So that's someone to look at so there's a lot of there's a lot of individual talent that I'm excited for. It's just gonna. There's just the hope that this storm starts to come down now and things started to take place because with the amount of talent that Pakistan has, they just have to be doing better than they are right now like, you need to be you need to be up there in the top four to five teams in the world. That's just not that's not that's not that's not negotiable when you have that level of talent in your country. Yeah, I agree and I've mentioned this on the podcast before that an exciting and vibrant Pakistan cricket team is just a must have in international cricket because they bring something unique that even with the clinical performances that India put up or just like those barns tomming performances by England or the ruthlessness of the Australian sites. There's nothing quite like a Pakistani team on song because they bring the passion and the excitement to cricket so I don't think cricket will. I read kind of recently online that oh Pakistan cricket might just die off at this rate no one will be interested in playing or no one will be interested watching. I've heard this about other teams notably India too so it all works out eventually you know like you just mentioned with the amount of exciting talent you have. And with the current coaches you have you never know, they could just kind of coalesce at the right time, you know, and just once once the team starts winning suddenly everyone is just motivated to do better and do more so. I think we should really end on that hopeful note. So, as I would have thank you so much for your time today thanks for coming back and to our listeners you can follow us at cover drive Crick on Twitter now known as X. You can also listen to outside of the coverage drive podcast which he's promised that is it's going to be more regular going forward. Thank you also then yeah do come back not just about Pakistan cricket if you want to talk any cricket in general you're always welcome to come back. We'll have to be back. Thank you for listening to an episode of the last week it do check out other episodes on your podcast app of choice or at the last week it. This podcast is the cricket guys production featuring your hosts Benny and my and if you enjoyed this podcast do let a friend know rate and subscribe on your platform of choice. Follow us on your social media feeds and leave us a voice message if you would like to share your thoughts with us. Thank you again for listening and from all of us here at the last cricket stay safe stay healthy. [Music] [Music] (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]