On the first half the show, City Council President Ruthzee Louijeune joins us. On the second half, a mini debate on ballot Question 4 about whether to legalize psychedelics for treatment and personal use. For the YES side is Emily Oneschuk, a Navy veteran and a spokesperson for MA for Mental Health Options. For the NO side, Dr. Nassir Ghaemi, President of the MA Psychiatric Society.
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Talk Of The Neighborhoods
Good evening and welcome to Talk of the Neighborhoods. I'm Joe Heisler, your host, coming to you from the B&N live studios in Eggleston Square, where tonight we're also being simulcast on our sister radio station, WBCA 102.9 FM. Tonight, a terrific show, as usual, all politics, as is our usual want and tonight in two parts. First up, please tap joining me, the president of the Boston City Council, Lucy Luizhen, and she took the gavel in January and is wrapping up her first year in that suite, and one more year she has. So, we'll find out what's ahead for the Boston City Council, including some very interesting tax proposals that are now being bandied about. I think that's fair to say. Then in the second half, well, we continue our coverage of the ballot issues, and tonight will feature a mini debate on question four. That's the ballot question that would legalize and regulate the use of psychedelic substances to treat, well, among other things, PTSD and veterans, and also other mental health conditions, and all that, and more tonight on Talk of the Neighborhoods. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. [Music] [Music] [Music] Alright, we're back with Talk of the Neighborhoods. I'm Joe Icy, host, tonight two-part show, and in this staff I'm pleased to have joining me, the president of the Boston City Council of Ruthie Luizhen, and she sends taking the gavel in January, has handled the rather sometimes fractious City Council, including a number of important issues that are still up in the air this year, and I'm pleased to have her joining me now. Nice to have you here. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, Joe. It's a pleasure to be here. I appreciate that. Well, how's it been? I remember when you were here, I think you were last year in January, and shortly after being elected, and of course you topped the ticket in the last time around, and then you were then elected unanimously by your colleagues. Not always, at that point, it was a rather rough year last year at the Council. How are you handling it? How are you enjoying it? Is it a curse or a blessing? Most days it's a blessing, but it is politics, so some days there are some some some tough days, but you know it really is a privilege for me, as a daughter of this city, to be able to serve every neighborhood in the city, and to be able to serve the council as a president of the body, to bring stability, to bring normalcy, to bring collegiality, that's what I hope, and you know that's what we've been doing these past ten months, so it really is a joy to serve as president of the body. First term, my first term, last term, was a bit challenging, and I hope that my colleagues feel like they have entered, and that it is a better, healthier working environment where we can really, I want the city council to be boring and focus on the issues that matter most to the residents of the city of Boston, potholes, lights, improving schools, finding houses for people, getting rid of trash on the side of the road, dealing with the road and population, those are all the things that I want to make sure that our residents know that we're doing day in and day out to serve the residents of this great city. Well it always wasn't so it was a lot of egos up there of course, and it's you know the nature of the business I suppose, but I mean how are your colleagues feeling, are they feeling like last year, I mean I think it was described by various publications as a rather toxic environment, are they feeling better about it, and what's been the key to kind of calming the water so to speak. Well I hope that my colleagues would say that they feel better, I know that I feel better about the working environment, not only just for myself but for the staff who work at the city council and the staff who work for the city council, little things like when we when I started off my presidency I made sure we we did a fun activity together and then we sat down with someone with someone about how we we went rock climbing together at the Phoenix right right right a new market and then after rock climbing we sat down with a consultant and she talked to us about how we are to deal with our you know you know issues of the council and as a body and how we come together despite our differences and I think that was great table setting we've we've designed new sweat church to create more of a culture of belonging yesterday we had a staff night out right after our council meeting and so I think little things like that are our attempts to really bring us back together as a body do I are we always going to agree no we're gonna have policy differences that's the nature of politics especially when you represent a diversity of 700,000 people but can it be a healthier and more collegial environment yes and I would I believe my colleagues would agree with me that it that it well and we've had several of them in here and of course it echoed much what you were saying although some of them have suggested that they weren't always being heard or they there was a committee hearings or hearings that they wanted that weren't always held or how do you navigate that kind of yeah well I mean we are a body of 13 people this 13 personalities and I always make it clear that I am no one's boss my job is to set the agenda to run the Wednesday meetings to help solve problems and as much as other counselors want me involved in helping to resolve disputes and issues I believe that they you know right now we're on a steady pace of having and holding the hearings I haven't heard recently for many I have in the past but I haven't heard recently in the past month or two that any customer who wanted a hearing on a matter hasn't been able to get one and so I think we are diligently moving part of it is about a colleague schedule the chair of the committee whether they have the schedule to hold a hearing part of it sometimes is we want more data before we can actually hold a hearing so that it's actually the hearing can actually provide robust information so and it's up to the chairs discretion the chair of every committee to determine when and how to hold a hearing so and you know in as a president of the city council I think we have really great colleagues who are astute and who are deliberative and who are intentional and how we move as a body we are I think working a lot more effectively and efficiently together in a more collegial environment and you know that doesn't mean that you know part of the president I hear I hear about people when they're upset and you're not gonna make anyone happy a hundred percent of the well and then there's the the politics that involved of course exactly one of your colleagues here at large colleagues ran for our county post and it was turned out unsuccessful that seemed to kind of create some different allegiances we're coming up on an election year of course that's always you know talk about stirring the pot but including a mayoral election and some thought that people are positioned themselves how do you kind of yeah stay above that prayer kind of out of arms way yeah you know politics is always gonna be politics I think you know the as much as I can try to keep that out outside of chambers and people want us to be doing the work talking about the rat birth control fertility pilot that we have going on a Jamaica plane to deal with the the rat issue the rodent issue and so are sure there's always going to be you know you know someone go vying for another office that creates tension potentially on the body my job is to try to soften that out as much as possible so that what more in the chambers we're doing the work of the people whatever you want to do on your own time and I think you I think people's desires and ambitions may play into feelings of like you know maybe I'm not feeling heard or you know or someone just being very critical of every and any policy as part of their political platform so I think there's also that and I can't I can't do anything if part of your the way that you want to sell yourself or your campaign or whatever is dependent on being critical of every choice exactly exactly well I know you have a very important issue coming up as my fact sounds like I think it's tomorrow you have a meeting on the mayor's I don't know I call it compromised tax proposal it's been in play of course there was an original homeroa petition that was passed by the council sent to the legislature the legislature passed the house or a version of it I should say pass out but not the Senate and still in play and of course we're coming up at the end of the year and when the tax notices get sent out and how important is this hearing and what do you expect to come out of it it's well meeting yes it's yes it's yet it's so to reschedule the special emergency meeting of the city council tomorrow it's not going to be a substantive meeting the mayor attempted yesterday to file late that compromise deal between that she worked on together with the business community and the Boston Municipal Research Bureau a colleague of mine blocked it it only takes one person to block a matter that is not filed as part of the regular agenda the mayor filed it late so that a colleague counselor blocked that late file so we weren't able to accept it and so therefore I'm just calling a quick emergency meeting because we have these deadlines both here in the city the assessors need to be able to send out tax bills and we need to get it up to the state house for them to sign off sign off on and so it is a matter of us to work on with very quickly and so we'll accept it tomorrow and I'll assign it to committee and the committee chair will likely decide to hold a hearing and and then we will take it up for committee well yes it's a big as a home rule petition it's a law all law proposed laws ordinances home rule petitions go to the committee on government operations which is chaired by my great colleague counselor Gigi Gabriela Kalata who represents the north and East Boston in Georgetown yes exactly and and so then the committee would need to hold a hearing on it there's no requirement that it that a hearing be held but I believe that she will be holding a hearing on the matter before it comes up for a vote and in terms of the substance of it because the mayor was kind of holding fast to you know her original proposal what you hope to do which for our viewers if you haven't been paying attention would affect the the rates tax rates on residences versus commercial exactly industrial you know I'm trying to balance them out a little bit more and that's over simplification say the least but of the mayor's proposal now do you think that will ultimately win approval I think it will win approval let's say just a bit can you help us to understand it yeah so the mayor's original proposal was to shift more of the tax burden than allowed by law to commercial taxes so that our residents wouldn't experience a significant tax increase in their property tax bill you know home I'm a homeowner everyone's going to experience a tax increase but it's trying to blunt the the how quickly of they experience that tax increase and by doing that she proposed a shift in the commercial taxes that would allow her to tax the commercial properties higher in part because we wouldn't you know 60% we 72% of the city's revenue comes from property taxes we are over relying on property taxes within that the split is 60% commercial and 40% residential because of the nature of the businesses downtown post COVID people working from home the valuation of the commercial real estate market right now if things are as remained as is we would experience a lower collection rate of taxes for the commercial properties which would shift more of the burden on to residential taxes on the mayor proposed a homo petition that would allow it to increase up to 200% for commercial tax property taxes and that has been sort of the the back and forth with the business community and the Senate so the agreement there's a compromise I believe it's 181.5% limiting that to the ceiling for the first year and then a decrease of the second and three and second in the third year so this is a tax shift proposal for over three three years that will eventually be phased out as we you know think about what our explore the other ways for us to be raising revenue which is also very dependent on the state house because we as a city of Boston are limited in what we can do on our own right we have to go ask for permission and I'm a little devil's advocate here of course some of the critics I'm a success of all you could reduce your budget and do you think that did that ever get serious consideration it's it that's a very interesting you know thing to to discuss it's really important that we are providing for the necessary city services to make this city run that our EMS have what they need that our schools have really met they need and so you know and I think that we do a good job now as a Boston City Council we have the power to amend the mayor's budget that was given to us by frankly the prior city council and that the voters agreed to and in the process we have been able to look at the departments that have had significant underspending over the past few years I think that is a good place for us to look but you know the core of the budget is to fund the city that we believe in one that is inclusive one that is you know charting the course on climate change one that is addressing the very real housing crisis and you know ensuring that Boston is the safest big city in the country that doesn't come without deep investments in community and in people and in a city that is trying to figure out how we share the prosperity that we have as a foundation of the city with great education and of great hospitals so I think that's something for us to look at but I'd also want us to look very critically at like how we've had a transfer fee bill before the state house that if it was enacted we as a city of Boston would have a hundred million dollars a year in revenue so some other sources yes yes and I want to talk about some other things as well but just very quickly do you think the mayor over played her hand on this at the state house was some back and forth with the Senate president on it yeah and I know it's an important issue don't get me wrong but I think you know we're just in a situation where we're trying to put residents first and I think what the Senate president wanted to make sure that we do that we were including all voices including the business community which the mayor you know our proposal did as well you had there's there's work in there's allocation there to help small businesses I think that oftentimes people realize that we have we have the same same goal I'm not sure if she overplayed her hand and as much as understanding how much the business community really feels that given the uncertainty of what's happening in the commercial environment exactly that this wasn't just a we don't want to pay taxes it I think it was a little bit more here and sort of like this is a lot of uncertainty in the market and and therefore you know compromise is not a dirty word and so I think that all the parties here have have been able to compromise and and you know I think we at the city council will see that and look on that favorably well and hopefully well they could be called back into session I guess to deal with it but they're an informal session now we're talking about the state house that there's some potential to get something through yet before years and yeah because it means that the assessor needs to so prepare the our bills and tax analysis go out November 1 exactly I think I think it might be at the end of November but you know we had mass in your action council in City Hall yesterday because seniors don't want to they can't living on the fixed income they can't experience these significant increases in their car and their daily budgets and that's what we're trying to prevent from happening at the end of the day we take all the politics of the hoopla out of it it's about we get the calls every day from seniors who are living on fixed income and who can't afford to live in this expensive city we are looking out for the most vulnerable including tax increases we've got just a few minutes left I got it I saw that you had a hearing on so much to talk about I know there is control rain choice voting I don't know and why why would we change over to that so rain chase voting is all about making sure that the person who was elected is a person who most reflects the majority will of the voters right now we have a winner take all system where you know the person who gets the most percentage points is the one who wins so if we have eight people running in a race and one person gets 30 percent and everyone else gets the remainder it's a person with 30 percent who ends up winning but is that person represent what the what the district actually wants what if that 80 percent what if that eighth candidate who gets 30 percent you know you know hates dogs and all of the other seven candidates love dogs but there were some different you know things here and there that made voters split their votes between those seven candidates so we have a district that basically loves dogs and they end up with a candidate who hates dogs because these other seven candidates who all love dogs split the vote and so this is all about how many we make sure that voters get to rank their vote just the same way that you're able to rank all the things similar to the system that Cambridge has in place it is it is I think Maine also has a yeah exactly and I worked as a lawyer I worked on Maine's first congressional election that had a ranked race voting and people always like to say about ranked is voting like oh it's confusing for the voter I as a lawyer looked at the ballots during the recount one by one and you could very clearly see that voters knew exactly what it means to rank we rank every day I go to the store I want vanilla ice cream they don't have it all right I'll think about getting chocolate I definitely don't want strawberry so we rank every day and I think voters it's intuitive it's also about creating a more collegial environment you get less of that in fighting or opposition among candidates because you know maybe your voter wants to rank me second right so you don't want it you don't want to alien anyway so it's about actually also electing the person who is a consensus builder it ends up cutting off people on the extremes and who can be the coalition building candidate and I think that's really important I think it's really important for us to think about how are we building how are we doing the work of building a democracy and ranked race voting gets us there what's next in that is it will have you put forward a proposal to actually put it in place yes we're still talking about at this point there is a homo petition we had a first hearing on it a few weeks ago there's a wide coalition of folks ranked race Boston that's supporting it from mass vote to the urban league to the Jewish Community Relations Council there are so many community partners who aren't support of this and then once we pass it on the Boston City Council signed by the mayor it goes to the state house and so you know we have a road ahead of us but I I'm really grateful for the coalition I really think that democracy shouldn't be stagnant that our work really is to really be innovative and think about how are we building a democracy where people really feel like their voices are heard if you like you have the support to pass it on the council I do and I think my you know my we had a really great year and have you talked to the mayor and she I hope so I think you know it was something to mention is in 2020 this was a statewide referendum on the ballot and you know it it's it failed slightly statewide but boss 62% of Bostonians voted in favor of ranked race voting and that gives me hope that gives me hope that the people of Boston believe that this could be a really great and it's not getting rid of the preliminary and just instead of two mayoral candidates going on from the preliminary you'll have four preliminaries you'll have four candidates moving on from a preliminary and for the at-large seats instead of choosing four candidates you're gonna rank for among eight and for district councilor same thing instead of two candidates moving on after preliminary there'll be four candidates moving on and just allowing also more people to participate in democracy when you're able to rank candidates you feel less like oh I'm not going I some candidates will say I don't want to run because I don't want to spoil it I don't want to you see it often in in in race where there's a Democrat or a Republican and there's a spoiler green party candidate or an independent party candidate for interest voting prevents that sense of like there's a someone who's gonna spoil the election after we shall see and we've got just a couple minutes left out priorities for you got one more year yeah yeah president what what do you have your sights set on that you want to be certain to get through we got to do the big things in a small things we got to get rid of the road and set up in our streets we're running a rat birth control fertility pilot program to think about how do we really get rid of rats how do we do it in a more humane way and so we're working on that and in Jamaica Plain we're working on how do we ensure we have a housing crisis for more schools how do we make sure that they become affordable housing former schools police stations municipal buildings that are coming offline we've seen it done successfully at the pride in Hyde Park and in so many of the places so we're thinking about building that into law and we're you know I just filed a hearing order on high dosage tutoring so many of our students are still struggling academically there have been models that have been used to of high dosage tutoring very intentional number of hours in a week so that our students can have that one-on-one support Atlanta has been using it Chicago's been using it and I want us to really look critically and we've been using it here we've been doing a pilot in East Boston and the city's been doing it throughout the district but should we is this something that we should be investing more and so those are all of those are just a few of the things that we're working on but housing schools everyday quality of life issues mass and cast I just came from a town hall forum about fentanyl overdoses we're doing all the things big and small so that Boston can be the great city I saw one of your colleagues issued a statement or whatever saying that mass and cast is back and there's still a problem there are still yeah the problem the progress we hope for failing well they're the tents are down and that's a that's a really big you know sign of progress dr. Basola Ojukutu heads of Boston Public Health Commission stated that there are signs of success when we have individualized case management for the people who are struggling with the disease of addiction the problem is is that is expensive and so we have to find out more ways that we are investing in people to help them to healing Sue Sullivan in the new market business improvement district has a great program for those in recovery paying them to clean up the streets to pick up the needles to become landscapers how do we bring that model to Nubian Square I think it's you know we're not going to arrest our way out of this problem now is that in Bay Village last night I was going to Sergeant Cross and saying that articulating that so well we are not going to arrest our way out of the problem we do need to make sure that we are you know using the using the law and law enforcement to deal with those who are praying on the most vulnerable down there but those who are suffering from the disease of addiction we need long-term recovery beds we need support we need long I need to rebuild Long Island so that we can deal with homeless get that bridge exactly and we're just a few just a minute or so left is it too early to talk about reelection you'd be the first to ask when it's never too early so yeah it's never too early go at this point planning to run for reelection or maybe you are planning to run for mayor no Joe I love my job I love serving the residents of the city as an at-large city council or as president of the council and so if I'm if I'm able to do this work and continue to be to be reelected if that is a plan that that God has for me that is what I will want to do as a daughter of this city honestly it brings me it brings me such joy to be able to be in Matapan High Park to our Chester East Boston Charleston listening to people working through our differences and solving people's problems every day that's what I love doing as an at-large city counselor the lawyer and me the girl who grew up in Matapan High Park I love the city immeasurably and I want us to all work together so that we can be the most inclusive the one the city that shares its prosperity among its residents the city where you know we know that our Boston public schools are turning out good outcomes for our kids that's what I want to work on every single day oh that's a real challenging agenda and I know you have a challenging agenda you you know best of luck and thanks for coming in and and sharing with us again a Boston City Council City Council President Roussey Louis Jen and it's not in December to relate talk about the election I guess never too much for coming in so much when we come back with more of talking to the neighbors what was shift gears still all politics next up a mini debate over question for that is a ballot question that would legalize regulate license distribution of psychedelic substances usually mushrooms and the polls showing at a very close race neck and neck so we'll find out next some pros and cons on that stay tuned we'll be right back just a few weeks ago during the 2024 presidential election debate former President Donald Trump perpetuated violent and false claims against Haitian immigrants in Springfield Ohio causing an uproar of discrimination against Haitians all across the nation on Tuesday the Haitian community and their allies stood in solidarity and let their voices be heard during the stop discrimination rally at the Embrace statue in Boston Columbia in this moment we've all have come together to stand up as the Americans and say enough is enough and to stand up with the people of Ohio yes who are suffering right now sadly today the same forces that once sought to keep Haiti enslaved are now using the tool of othering painting Haitians black people immigrants and somehow less as if we are not worthy of respect or deserving of humanity and we know that's a lie race with a construct that was created my friends and it was created to divide us the fact of the matter is all of our hearts beat all of our blood bleeds red we all breathe in oxygen and we exhale it these are nothing but lies from the enemy to try to keep us apart and to keep us not focused on the goal that is ahead of us the location was a perfect setting for the message they were proclaiming stop the lies stop the hate and treat our immigrants with respect after all their contributions to this nation are and I'm not just here to support the Haitian community I'm here for all of us yeah when you attack someone in Springfield we feel it in Boston when you injure our Haitian neighbors the whole country bleeds as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said we all have inherent dignity and nobody can take that away unless we relinquish it and we are standing here to say that Haitians deserve respect and will not give up their duty the Mira coalition stands firmly against any attacks on our immigrant communities here in Massachusetts racist xenophobic language and baseless sneers have no place in our multicultural multi-racial society rather I want to stand with you all today and I want to celebrate the amazing contributions of Haitian Americans and Haitian immigrants to the United States and to Massachusetts the impact of spreading these hateful words and false narratives about Haitian immigrants doesn't just affect that community it ripples throughout the country and causes more people rhetoric towards all of our immigrants whenever you attack one (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Free Speech Week is a yearly event to raise public awareness of the importance of freedom of speech and the press in our democracy and to celebrate that freedom. (upbeat music) For the 11th year in a row, the Big Head Festival brought the community together to honor the monumental sculpture, Eternal Presence, crafted by Roxbury's own John Wilson. Participants took part in the cherished tradition of washing and waxing this iconic sculpture, a groundbreaking work that celebrates the Black community as the first of its kind to depict a Black figure. For my father, having the sculpture here was of tremendous importance and significance. He grew up here and he grew up not being able to see images that looked like him. So he wanted to make a monumental African-American presence in his community for kids to be able to look at and see themselves and all their potential. I brought my two sons to the Big Head Festival. What I see when I look at the Big Head is longevity, curiosity. I see myself, I see a community that is banded together to raise up where we've been to where we want to go. With sleeves rolled up, attendees showed their deep respect for both the artist and his creation, meticulously caring for this awe-inspiring piece of art. Alright, we're back with more of Talk to the Neighborhoods. I'm Joe Heist, the host. And on the second half tonight, we'll have a mini debate on one of the ballot questions. There's five in total. But the question that's showing up in the polls, the closest, is actually question four. It shows it as a very tight race. This is a question that would well to oversimplify, legalize, regulate, and license the distribution of natural psychedelic substances for use in treating a variety of mental illnesses, including PTSD. Here's what it would do. Just very quickly, it would create a natural, psychedelic substances commission and advisory board to license and regulate these substances. Would authorize individuals, 21 years and older, to grow, possess, and use a personal amount of these substances. It would impose an excise tax of 15% on the sale of substances at licensed facilities. And last but not least, it would authorize municipalities to levy an additional 2% tax and further regulate the operations of the licensees. And I'm pleased to have joining us tonight to talk about this, pro and con. First up on my immediate right is Emily O'Neshak. She is a Navy veteran, and she's with the Massachusetts Mental Health Options Group, which is an organization that was formed to promote this question. And from the Massachusetts Psychiatric Society, Dr. Nasir Ghami. It's here, nice to have you here as well, Dr. All right, let's start with this. And because I think people are somewhat confused about this and really trying to understand, get their arms around this. And we'll start with you, Emily, if you don't mind. What have you experienced that makes you believe that this would be a viable treatment option? Have you personally partaked? I should think the right word. And what did it do for you? Yeah, well, thank you for having me. So I came to this work because I personally benefited from natural psychedelic therapy. I, you know, seven years ago, I lost my brother to gun violence. At the same time, I was the first female Navy SEAL candidate, and I was under a lot of pressure and a lot of stress. And I took all of that and went into active duty military service, which is not a great place to deal with grief or your emotions or, you know, really get well. And I came out of that time, you know, on active duty with PTSD, depression, and anxiety. And I did everything that I was supposed to do, right? I went to the VA. I went through counseling. I did cognitive behavioral therapy. I was using all the tools I had available to me. But life, like, the person I had been was just slipping further and further away from me. And it was really frustrating and frankly kind of scary. But I had read "How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan. So there's this little bug in my ears. Like there's something else I could try. And I ended up on a natural psychedelic therapy retreat for female veterans in Jamaica almost two years ago. And that, for me, was like the first breakthrough and what was a very thick wall of, you know, protections that I had built up. I had a lot of grief. I had a lot of anger that I couldn't reach through these traditional things. How did it affect that? How did you break through? And we're coming to you with doctors, so don't. Yeah, so I, you know, like I said, all these traditional methods, like we're kind of like chipping away at it, but I couldn't reach like the anger I had and the sadness. Like it was too big for me to hold. And these substances, you know, they work in a variety of ways. And one of the things that they helped do is kind of reach these subconscious things that maybe I couldn't access in normal therapy, which was really profound for me and made, you know, all of the therapy I did after that much more effective. So it, it gave me this like, you know, kind of this touch point of hope and like light that I just had lost for, you know, a better part of a decade. And I was, you know, when I did that, I was 27 and that's a really long time to feel like, you know, you're underwater. Dr. Gummy, of course you've dealt with a lot of different mental illnesses over the course of your career. Is that typical? And what, what, and if not, what convinces you otherwise? Well, I'm president of the Master of Psych Society. I'm also a researcher in psychopharmacology. I've authored a textbook on it. And I've probably treated over 10,000 patients over 30 years. I've estimated primarily with mooding for PTSD. Yeah, including PTSD. I'm director of the mood disorders program at Tufts Medical Center. So a lot of my patients have depression and bipolar illness, but many of them also have PTSD addiction, sorry, addiction is anxiety. So, yeah, we see this kind of scenario a lot where people will have depression, anxiety, PTSD. There are a lot of treatments for them. And we are not opposed to the idea that some hallucinogens, psychedelics, is not a scientifically sound term. These are drugs that cause hallucinations and delusions. If given carefully in low doses or certain settings at higher doses, that can be helpful. Some studies are suggesting. And we'll have to see how that plays out. If the research supports its use in PTSD in particular, which there is a big need, we are very supportive of that. We'd love to give it in depression, which is more my specialty as well. The drugs have been studied and shown in their primary outcomes, the main focus on the research to be equal to standard antidepressants, but not better. Therefore, not transformative and not suddenly going to solve mental health crisis. So, you know, the mental health crisis has different aspects, depression and PTSD. I think on the depression and it's weaker on the PTSD and it's promising, but not proven. And therefore, we need to let, we think, like with any medicine, any drug in medicine, everything except these drugs, we let the researchers do the research and the doctors do the prescribing. We don't let voters just grow it in their spare bedroom, as this. So, too soon, is that the objection? Too soon or reckless? You can grow this in your set in your guest bedroom in the 12-foot, 12-life area, distribute it to whoever you want to. Supposedly above age 21, but don't think that the 20-year-old is not going to get it, and the teenagers, and if the kids get into it, and the pets, you know, that happens with cannabis right now, and if children eat edibles and go to the emergency rooms, 10% of them end up in the ICU and some in a coma. Pets get injured, too. And 50% of adolescents right now are using cannabis, even though it's supposed to be legal only above age 21. Right now, hallucinogen uses 10%, about 10% in adults and adolescents. It'll go up higher than that if we make it a home distribution, home growth, unregulated, available to everybody, and that's what we object to. Emily, do you buy that or is that fear tactics? So, you know, what I want to say to that is, and I think the doctor said this, people are already using this, right? And a lot of people are seeking it, and a lot of people are curious about it. And I think what prevents, you know, increasing public safety is keeping the prohibition and keeping it in these, you know, in the darkness, keeping the stigma up and preventing people from having the conversations they need, you know, to engage with it responsibly, because like the doctor said, people are already using it. We can't pretend they're not, and keeping this, you know, stigma attached and keeping the prohibition just prevents people from getting the information they need to make responsible decisions. If I may respond. Sure. People are already using it, and they're doing very badly with it. Many of my patients tell me about being on psychedelics. They don't hold it back, and the patients that I see are doing badly with it. And I'll give you an example. I've done it before. This will be just brief. I had a patient in her early twenties who was treated with ayahuasca, which has DMT, which is one of the five substances in the ballot question. For mild depression, and she developed a more severe depression, became very psychotic with delusions and hallucinations, was hospitalized for six months with catatonia, meaning she couldn't eat, move, drink, or talk, and had to get a feeding tube, almost killed her. And she responded eventually with electroshock treatment and gradually got better. She's not the only case. I've had many other patients who've been addicted to it, or had other battery reactions to it. And 5% of the population in the state, hundreds of thousands of people, are at risk because they have depression, bipolar and schizophrenia, which makes them prone to getting more psychotic with these drugs. So it's not for everybody. Is there enough, would there be enough controls in place to control the excesses, the abuse, the potential for adolescents? So the ballot question's in two parts. That's up the regulated framework, which is a two-year rulemaking process where we set up what that system would look like here for people to access this therapy. And that's already going on in Oregon. Colorado has it coming online. So Oregon's had a lot of success. They've seen upwards of 5,000 patients. They have gone first, so they've had to work through a lot of what it looks like to set up this totally new system. Colorado's learned from them and improved upon what they had and will improve upon what they have. But there's weightless to my along. There's weightless to get into these studies because people are really seeking other options. I don't want to diminish the risk. There are risks associated with these, but it's the exception, not the rule. I've known so many people that these have helped hundreds and hundreds of people over the course of my time on this campaign, and that's just in Massachusetts, not to mention nationally. And I think the way we approach this and make it more safe is to talk about it and to take it out of the shadows where it currently is because people are going to keep doing it and preventing people from having information and having open and honest conversations isn't keeping anyone safer. Could this be, well, and of course it's put forth, the legislature could change it if they wanted to. Could there be some additional? Do you have faith in the, I'm thinking of the Cannabis Control Commission? And frankly, in my opinion, it's a mess. There's a lot of back and forth infighting, poor management, blah, blah, blah, take it back a way to control this and regulate it. Let me speak first, and then you describe how it's done in Oregon, for instance, they have not reported any data on whether it's harmful or not, and they have it stated that they won't report 90-2025, so we don't really know what the effects there are in terms of safety. We do know how they're doing it and how this bill is set up. It is not licensed to medical professionals or mental health professionals. The regulation actually states that it cannot be restricted to medical or mental health professionals. That means you have to allow people with college degrees and high school degrees to be the so-called licensed facilitators, and that's what they are in Oregon. They're high school graduates. They take a couple month course, sometimes online. That's not enough to get the training that you need to identify who should get the medications, who shouldn't, and to deal with the psychosis and other risks. One of them causes cardiac arrest. How are they going to handle that? I have four years of medical school, four years of psychiatry training, 30 years of clinical experience. You don't get that in a couple months online course after getting high school degrees. That's what the current licensed facilitators are. That's why the American Psychiatric Association, which represents 40,000 psychiatrists in the country, the Mass Psych Society, which represents majority psychiatrists here, and the Massachusetts Medical Association has expressed concern about this, because that's the biggest thing that we think makes it on the so-called regulated side of really not safely being given to people separate from growing it in your guessbook. And Emily, you're up against these licensed professionals and doctors. How do you overcome the doubts that some people have, including, obviously, some of these doctors and medical people? The doubts are real, and I understand this is very different than what our system has been, and I think for a good reason. I think a lot of people are dismayed and disenfranchised with the current mental health system, and this is a way forward to change the options that we have. And what I'll say to that is Oregon did not have the tiered licensure system, but Colorado improved on that, right? So licensed therapists and clinicians can provide this treatment. Would that be the same here? So that would be decided during the rulemaking process, I assume so, because there's a lot of people. And what I also want to say is not everyone needs the same level of care, right? These can help for a myriad of things, and not everyone needs a psychiatrist to help them with whatever they're going through. Sometimes they just need peer support. So there's different levels of care for different people, because, you know, whatever you grief doesn't necessarily require a doctor to help you sit through. Sometimes it's just a compassionate person sitting next to you. But that's why there's, you know, a medical, there's a screening before you go through this treatment. There's, you know, it's a rigorous process. It's thoughtful. It's not haphazard. It's just we're trying to figure out how to help each other. I'm afraid this is practicing medicine without a license. The fact is that one of these drugs has its cardiac arrest. If you're not a doctor, you don't know how to deal with that. And physicians and mental health professionals, I don't think we'll be able to participate, even if the state passes it, because federal regulations will still make it illegal. It's not like we can sit around, take out our prescription pad and prescribe Mescalin to you. So no, it's going to be high school graduates and college graduates, and that's unsafe. And because of the licensing requirements or the professional requirement responsibilities, if there was tighter regulation, is that something that you think that your people in your profession could get behind? So, yes, the tighter regulation would be to just to do what we do with drugs for cancer and drugs for heart disease, which was a two leading cause of death. We say there's a mental health crisis. Well, there's a cancer crisis, too, but nobody's coming out saying, "Hey, here's a new cancer drug. It might work. Let's let 7 million people in Massachusetts have it in their spare bedroom and take it however they like, or let's let a high school graduate give it out for $1,000." Do you think, and I want to come back to you, Emily, but do you think part of how this whole idea grew was the post-pandemic skepticism of science, of medicine? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the pandemic is a good example. I was going to just finish that comment and I'll get to that, which is that we support that this goes through standard FDA approval, which has a fast track for South Simon. The groups that have paid $6.5 million to support this bill could have spent that on too good randomized trials to prove that it works. With that, then we can actually prescribe the medication, but what the pandemic did is it showed us that on issues of public health, and I have a degree in public health from the Harvard School of Public Health, and this is my medical degree. I don't think you have a public health degree, but the pandemic showed us was that on public health issues, we need to be attentive to physicians and researchers, because otherwise a lot of misinformation gets out there on the public, and I think that's what's happening with the scholarship. And what about that? I mean, what are people saying to you, well, how does this idea grow and come to fruition before people are voters? Yeah, so this idea just didn't come out of thin air. There is a lot of research that's gone into it, and it has been granted as a breakthrough treatment for depression, and the research has been going on for a long time. This is an unresearched entity, and I think the reason that it's on the ballot now is because the FDA approval process could take upwards of six, ten years. That's not true. If this doesn't pass on the ballot, it can't be on the ballot for another six years. The FDA has an expedited approval. As far as I'm aware, the FDA isn't moving quickly with this, and we don't expect to see it available to folks for a long time. And I don't have a degree in public health, I have a degree in mechanical engineering, so I also like science. It's not the same thing, though. I wasn't trying to poop with you. And what I go back to is these have been used in indigenous cultures for hundreds and thousands of years to great results, and I think we want to dismiss that in many ways. And these have been around. We didn't just come up with this overnight. This has been a part of people's lives for a long time, and it really helps people. I've seen it really help a lot of people, and this job is hard because people come to me and say, "I've been on SSRIs for 20 years. I've done everything. I wake up every day, and I still don't know why I'm here. I want to try this. How can I go?" I have to tell them to go Mexico. Is it a tough sell? I'm thinking after years of the war on drugs, various initiatives have been put forth, crack cocaine, epidemic, the fear that somehow this will unleash some forces that can't be controlled. Is that a tough sell? It's a tough sell, and Dr. Gummy mentioned the money, because it has gone into the campaign, because a lot of re-education is that we're trying to do is that to happen. It's a lot of discussions. I go up every day and talk about my personal experience, because it's hard for people to understand that these are powerful, but they can be really effective, and we don't need to attach fear with them. We need to educate, and get rid of this kind of huge bubble of misinformation around it. And are you confident that you will prevail on the ballot? Yeah, I've been really touched over the past year with the curiosity I've met, and the stories, and I think people are confident that we can do a good job in Massachusetts with us. I think the misinformation is from the ballot proponents who think this is going to solve the mental health crisis. That's not science, that's science fiction. The people behind the ballot question are the same people who gave you cannabis in prior years, which has some benefits, but they're trying to move it forward. So cannabis right now is a $6 billion industry in Massachusetts, $40 billion in the country. The venture capitalists who have so far put $6.5 million and just gave you $500,000 more this week from Rick Doblin and his group. Those folks, majority of them actually own the majority of them own interest in psychedelic companies, and they would benefit in making billions more if this becomes legal and then eventually commercialized. That's what's driving it. It's not altruism. It's really about profits. It's about money. So I know the donors, and the main donors and the people that helped start this initiative saw the mental health systems fail their families, and they saw this as a promising option. The way this is set up, there's no retail sales, there's no stores, there's no dispensaries. It's a therapy center, much like a chiropractic officer. I know chiropractic offices aren't cash cows, and neither is this. This is from a public health standpoint, not from a commercial standpoint. Therapy centers cost $1,000 a session and will not be reimbursed by insurance. Well, and in terms of your profession, will it somehow adversely affect your profession? Well, it will adversely affect the people with mental illness. Essentially, they call it mental health options, but they ignore people with mental illness. And it will harm the public health with increased car accidents and with increased emergency room hospitalizations. - Yeah, unfortunately we're out of time.