Good morning. Happy Saturday. We are less than a week away from the Academy Awards and this is significant because I was thinking about a specific person. My former boss, Justin Wells, Doppelganger, Bradley Cooper has been nominated for an Academy Award five times and not one. I'm just curious, is there a football equivalent? Is there a team that has been really, really great or over a period of time that have been really, really great and have not won a national championship? Obviously the analog in the NFL people immediately jumped to is the Buffalo Bills, right? They were there. They were a great team. They were consistently competing for a Super Bowl but just couldn't pull it off. Now obviously in the NFL you have the luxury and in many ways is the privilege of having consistency, right? It's a different league. You can have the same team over a period of time. You don't get that in college and that's why we wanted to talk today about what are the teams that were really, really great that didn't win the game. So we're going to bring in Paul and we're going to bring in Ian and we're going to talk about this. Now understand that we are very aware that this is fodder for the comments section. There's no way we're going to get this right. You're going to tell us how stupid we are. You're going to tell us all the teams that we forgot we're well aware of that. We've got very thick skin or we wouldn't be doing this. But one of the problems also is the question. Is this even a valid question, Paul? Is this even something that we could possibly pursue given the fact that the college game and the NFL game is just so different? So great question and the comments will tell us we're stupid, irrespective of the subject matter. So it doesn't matter. Here's the interesting thing. Two things. One, you're absolutely right. The NFL game is fundamentally different from the college game. The NFL game has also changed as well, right? The NFL doesn't have graduation, but it's got free agency in a way that it didn't have before. And with the salary cap, you're not capable of running it back with the same team over and over and over the way you could back in the 90s with the bills, right? Who had this star crossed relationship with the Super Bowl, ranging from losing on missed last second field goals or made last second field goals or just getting blown out of the building, right? Not even showing up. And I don't... The other thing that characterizes it that's different is the bills famously never got it done, right? They never got there. Usually the college teams that are the almost there, almost there, when are they going to do it? They do kind of eventually get there. And sometimes it's under new management, sometimes it's a new realization of the program, a new offense, a new style of play. It's a rebrand. And we're not talking about college football dynasties that have become defunct, right? We're talking about the modern era of football, where these name brand teams that were known for not getting it done, interestingly, unlike the Buffalo Bills, they do eventually get theirs. And so Nebraska is the first that leaps to mind. Tom Osborne and Nebraska had this amazing consistent program where they in Oklahoma dominated the big eight, which was a really bad league most years. And they played Oklahoma and then inevitably, usually they'd lose to OU. But when they would win in B.D. OU, they'd inevitably go to a New Year's game and play a fast team from Florida, from the South, and they would just get boat raced. And that was the life of a Nebraska fan. You had this 12 and 1 or 11 and 2 final season record that was effectively a mirage, because nine of those wins were against teams that are really not that competitive in football. So the kind of joke was Tom Osborne can't get it. Dr. Tom Osborne, as Nebraska fan, Senator Tom Osborne, Chancellor Tom, you know, Provost, Grand Puba, Tom Osborne. But the whole thing was, well, you can't get it done. Until he got it done. And he got it done with what a lot of people consider the most dominant team of its decade, right? 95 Nebraska. And 94 Nebraska was effectively just as good. And then, of course, 96 Nebraska, Texas ruined all of their ambitions and dreams in an amazing big football title game. So that's the first school that leaps to mind for me that sort of initiated this conversation. Ian, did you have any thoughts on any of this? Well, it's funny. I think that's more the norm, is that you have to knock on the door for a while. More recently, we've seen it with Kirby Smart, who, you know, got bested by Nick Saban with the unexpected move to Duotonga Bailoa in the second half of the National Championship game. And then Kirby Smart just couldn't quite get there until back-to-back championships. And then Jim Harbaugh also, immediate success at Michigan with a few 10-win seasons up the gate, but couldn't made Ohio State and couldn't win a play. And then couldn't win a playoff game for the longest time until I finally did it. And then Sayonara. So that's been more the norm. Dabo Swinning was like that as well. But nationally, it was considered like Bob Stupes won in year two, right? Right. Nick Saban won in year three, is that right? In Alabama? Everybody's doing some mental calculations. 2009 was year three, I believe so. Again, that's why we have the comments section, and don't worry. We have our own ombudsman, we call the comments section. Well, for a while, the result of that was that people thought, if your coach just win immediately in year two or three, and like the highest stages, then you made, whoops, wrong hype. That was like the expectation, and certainly Texas, because they had a Bob Stupes kicking the door down every mid-October Texas fair day game. So yeah, that's been an interesting feature to polish football in the last couple of decades, is that the Buffalo Bills, until they're not kind of phenomenon. Well, I did a little Googling, and Nick Saban is, I actually alt-vista, I didn't Google it. Oh, wow, all right. Yeah, yeah. A little throwback. Okay. 2002. It was year three, and I don't know, I think a lot of people know this, but I think most people don't know this, which was Nick Saban and that Alabama staff were surprised to win the national title. They did not think that that was the team, they didn't think that was the year, they had holes in their lineup, they had some great headlining players, they had the Julio Jones and Marcel Darius and all that, but people don't remember that some of their role players were not quite Alabama quality yet, and hopefully they needed some things to go right in that game to beat Texas. But he got there early, and just like Bob Stupes famously got there in year two, which was one of the most unbelievable coaching jobs in college football history. I've heard about Oklahoma as well that the Oklahoma coaching staff believed the 2000 team was one of their elite talented units, like probably every team that went to the national championship game after that, it came up short, they regarded as being better, more talented teams. But I think that 2000 team had just, you know, a little something different about them. Let's talk, let's bring this a little bit forward. We've got our Oklahoma teams, and one of the things that you notice here is obviously, look, that Oklahoma game against the Red River rivalry for a period of time in that Mac and Stupes era, that really decided a lot of the BCS, it was decided in October whether one of those teams was going to go because both were playing at such an elite level. And it really obviously wasn't until Mac was able to get over that Red River game hump that even afforded him the opportunity to move forward in this. But the modern analog, really, in terms of just consistency, and I'm saying this outside of Alabama, has to be Ohio State. Now, when we start thinking about the trestle era, the tattoos, the cards, the selling of jerseys, all of the fun things that made trestle an amazing football coach, we have now a series where Ryan Day has been able to maintain a level of consistency there, but hasn't been able to get over that hump. And that's something that we really unique, especially at a powerhouse like Ohio State, that is accustomed to certainly competing in the game, but winning that game. And I'd love for you to expand on that if you can, Ian. Well, they added Ryan Day to the staff to kind of boost up the offense in 2018, I believe, 2017. One of those years. And he updated their passing gains and kind of brought Ohio State out of an urban ball option game into more sophisticated passing, which really boosted them. They started embarrassing Michigan over a year, dropping 50, 60 points on Jim Harbaugh. But they couldn't quite win the national championship. And then they ended up planting the seeds of their own downfall by motivating Harbaugh that's the ending act, and figuring out how to beat them and elevating Michigan up a level beyond. So the Ryan Day Buckeyes have this amazing record of life. I don't know if they've won less than 11 games since Ryan Day has been a part of the program. And certainly since he's been head coach, I'm pretty sure they're definitely at 10 every year, and I think actually it will win every season. But limited playoff success and now consistent thrashings against Michigan. So they are like, they are right now, they are your buckle up bills up until they either break out in the coming years, or they go down and everything like that and they have to make a change. Especially when you consider now that we've really boiled it down or even talking about somewhat of the atrophy of opportunity here, we've got these two leagues, right? We've got the SEC, we've got the Big Ten. That pressure on an Ohio State is that much greater just given the parity in that league is so much, it's so rare, frankly, as in comparison to something like the SEC, you're really, really top heavy in the Big Ten. So if you're not that Ohio State, you're not that Michigan, if you're not there in that competition, that speaks volumes more so than it might, even if you're a third place team in the SEC. So without that being considered, what do we think moving forward needs to, what is our team moving forward? If we had to guess, are we going to stay? Is it still going to be Ohio State? Are they the ones? I mean, they're sitting, it's really nice that their biggest competitor, Harbaugh, is now out of the league. Do you think that this is the time for them to kind of break that curse? Yeah, and I think what they're going to do, I mean, Ohio State is a great object lesson in hanging around. They're probably the beginning of the 2000s, right? Had one of the most interesting national championship games, probably since Penn State, Miami, back in the 80s, when that was a huge upset, right? You're talking about O2 with Miami? I'm talking about O2 with Miami, yeah, I mean, that was, I was thinking that that team had a very good defense, but their offense was terrible all year, and they played just incredibly tight games in every game they played. I mean, against Purdue, against, you know, five and seven big 10 teams, these games are coming down to the wire, and they went out and they, because they kind of hung around, I don't know if that team would have advanced to the national title game in a playoff format, but in the BCS format, they got a one and done, and everyone said, oh, you know, how badly is Miami going to beat them? But Miami had this weakness, well, two weaknesses. They had Ken Dorsey, who was a quarterback that was going to wilt under against higher level defenses, even though he had this amazing sporting cast, and then their coaching had fallen off, right? And, you know, Ed Orgeron is one of national title, Larry Coker was one of national title, you know, you don't have to be elite, necessarily a college football to win a national title. But over time, that coaching is going to catch up to you, right? And they beat, they beat Miami effectively by hanging around, by being a program and not just a good team. But then in the mid 2000s, they were the poster child for why is Ohio State even playing in this game? They get boat raced by Florida, right? Urban Myers, Florida, and this wasn't the Tim Tebow Florida, it was Chris Leak, Florida, by the way, and they look like glacially slow in that game. And in the next year, LSU whips him. And that wasn't Jamarkus Russell LSU, that was Matt Flynn LSU, that was Nick Saban, that's what got, that's what started his path to legend. And the whole thing was Ohio State's so slow. This is pathetic. Well, Ohio State rehauled their entire recruiting approach, particularly later, but they started looking at it. And they became not a team of the Midwest of a bunch of Ohio boys, and you know, where they play pretty good football, they became a team of a bunch of Texans, Georgians and Floridians. And Ohio State's pretty much stayed that way. And so they may read Midwest on paper, but that's an SEC program, effectively. And they just keep hanging around. So to your point, this is a long winded way of getting back to your question, which was, they're going to keep hanging around. And just like facing a Ken Dorsey created a fortuitous environment for them, not facing Jim Harbaugh, not facing that incredible defensive staff, is going to create a great environment for them. Now, can Oregon come in and be the new burner side? Yeah, we're going to find out. But Ohio State's going to line up against every team they play in the regular season, and in the big 12 title and big 10 title game, I should say, and they will be better. They will be a better football team. The question is, you know, can you win every week? A common, I think an analog for, for maybe we do have some fans that are a little bit unfamiliar with this. But Ryan Day, the analog there is Mac Brown, just absolutely consistent winning years, 10 win seasons, 11 win seasons, just right on the cusp of that greatness. And again, Mac didn't have the playoff. I think that that we could, there's some arguments that could be made there that though some of those years with Mac would have been different if a playoff was available to them. And the one game that was the Red River shootout didn't matter as much. But moving forward, we've got this Mac Brown-esque person in terms of Ryan Day. And really, the question is, as Ian pointed out, what is the, what is the appetite and what is the sustainability of being great over a period of time with your fan base if you're not winning championships? I mean, the idea that Ryan Day is being considered on the hot seat blows my mind. I mean, he has someone that has been able to maintain a level of consistency over a long period of time, which again, in college football, y'all is virtually impossible. You've got so many variables that are coming in and out, especially in the modern era, to maintain a level of consistency when so many things are coming in and out every year is damn near impossible. So that, to me, is a really impressive program. Are there any other teams that just popped to mind? I mean, I'm looking at, you know, you've got your, in some ways, you've got your Clemson, right? Your Clemson's been there. You've got your, your DABO's been there for a while. He's, he's teared off for a little bit, but he had that run of, of just really consistently good football. And only really, what did he get? He got two, one national championship out of that? Two, he got, he got 16 and 18, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, over that time period, 16 years of Clemson would shock me. I looked it up. And I didn't realize time had flown like that. He's 170 and 43 at Clemson. Now, he's coaching in the ACC, that helps quite a bit. But he's still 170 and 43 and say whatever you want, but the ACC, they, they had a playoff system and Clemson won two national titles, right? He falls off in 2023, falls off in 2022, a little falls off really in 2023. And people are already like, he's done, it's, it's dead, it's over. It's, it's really interesting. I mean, and it could be, I don't know, he might, he's gonna have to change some practices if he wants to say relevant. Hey, a quick thing on Ohio State that, and this is relevant to all programs that are striving to get there, Texas being the unnamed program we're talking about, right? You need to hang around a little first and then you break through. Right. And that's what we're hoping we do. Every elite team now in college football, this is the first time in history, starting next year, starting this year, I should say, you will end your season except for one team with a loss. That's what the NFL fan is used to. The college football fan is used to. Oh, I tell you down the stretch, there was no team hotter than us. And we went to the blue bonnet bowl and we blew out, blah, blah, blah. Man, look out for Texas next year, right? You always had this false hope of you could end your season on this big upswing and then, you know, I've got all this momentum and, oh, good thing, there's not a playoff. No one would want to play this Texas team, right? Well, there's a playoff now and every elite team is going to end their season except for one with a loss. So how are college football fans going to deal with that? How are Ohio State football fans going to deal with that? If Ohio State has a great year, plays for the national title and loses by a field goal, right? Well, still can't get it done. We got to get someone who can get it done. Well, to expand on that even further, let's let's take that from the playoff system, even into the regular season. I mean, there for a long time, again, let's go back to those Red River games with, with Mac and Bob, you lose one game. Job done. That is it. And now the fan can have a little bit of breathing room, especially if they're in one of those two leagues where people are already talking about like automatic bids and nonsense. Like you, you can afford yourself the opportunity to lose, gosh, how many games to three, depending on what league you're in and still potentially make the playoff. So as a fan, that in some ways takes a little bit of that pressure off, knowing that you can do that. This is the, this is like really my only major pick up with the playoffs is that it diminishes the intensity around the rivalry games like the world's largest outdoor cocktail party or the iron bowl, the game up here in Michigan, or Ohio State, and then the Red River shootout. But the big drop championship game I've already done that to some extent, which I didn't like as well. But it was, I do think it was better when those games and have like special atmospheres were basically mid-season playoff games. And we're gonna, I guess lose that. But yeah, the other games become much more expendable. I wonder if, like if you're SARC, applying that reasoning to next year's schedule, you have Oklahoma and Georgia back to back. Now, before, if you might say, hey, let's, we'll give Oklahoma their, their, we'll give the devil is due, but we have to be ready for Georgia the week after. So let, let's think about if there's a way we can approach Oklahoma that leaves us a little more ready for Georgia. This coming year, I don't think there's actually not much reason to do that. Obviously you want to beat Georgia, but it's just not essential to your goals, right? You can make the playoffs a number of ways without beating Georgia in the regular season, whereas you cannot really afford that, right? So I guess the rivalry game is still kind of important. They still, they really need to beat Oklahoma, right? So these, all the different calculations are, they change. Also, as far as hanging around, one thing that we haven't touched on is NIA. And there's, I don't know the extent to which is, this is real, but a lot of programs are talking about donor fatigue, right? Like how long can we ask our boosters and our fans to chip in money for us to buy a team to win? And if you think like an Ohio State was crazy about losing the last game of the regular season or the playoff game before, and their donors would go a little stir crazy, imagine after they spent, however much has been rumored that they spent, you know, like in the 15 to 20 million range this year to build up this roster, if they fall flat on their faces again, then what is the donor out cry like, you know? Then what does the fan out cry look like against Ryan Daley? We gave this guy the world, we gave this guy Chip Kelly as his offensive coordinator, and he still can't be in Michigan, right? And so, and same with Sark, honestly, I mean, Sark has all the goodwill he needs right now, but if he loses for a couple of years in the SEC with the level of player that Texas has on the roster, then we're going to see that the patients will wear out in because of the investment in the expected ROI, right? So you're, what you're saying is the, the patience is directly correlated with the amount of money that's going into it from a fan perspective, not necessarily from a, a program perspective, like is the, is the fan going to be more inclined to get rid of a Ryan day that's been wildly consistent up to this point, because now they've got, you know, dinner table food, a dinner table money rather in the game. I would think so, and certainly, you know, it's still going to come down more to the donors, like the big donors, they're, they're the ones that are footing the major bills for this and I all stuff, but they're certainly going to, some of them are going to feel that way, I think. If you're like a mom and pop restaurant that chipped in for a sponsorship from the quarterback and your team wins 11 games and they're the playoffs and he's advertising for your restaurant, you're probably great, right? You've got what you've got what she wanted. If you're just a donor that's like throwing in some of your money in hopes of seeing a championship in your lifetime or something like that, I think it's a very different calculation. Yeah, I think it also is the metrics, right? Texas is really run by profit. I mean, that's the lesson you take over the last decade plus. Texas hasn't won a lot and Texas is still hyper profitable. And so, is there really an impetus to act? You don't have that same urgency because there's people operating off of different metrics, but then you get new leadership at Texas and suddenly their metric is fan happiness, fan buy-in and donors are sort of a proxy for that, right? And that's a different world. There's a good version of that, which is it enforces change and it creates a vitality curve. There's a bad version of that where it's Auburn and you're just insane. And then you'll accept NCAA sanctioned. You know, when you're at Tennessee, they turned in their own program for NCAA sanctioned so they could fire the coach and not have to retire. That's gangster. Is Texas that ruthless? No. We have no evidence of that, but we have new leadership now. And so, the metrics that were acceptable in 2015 are no longer acceptable in Austin. And so, I think that is also what are your metrics? And in Ohio State, I think there's an intensity around the program that's hard to deny. And I don't think it's just about profitability there anymore, right? Yeah. Time will tell. We are in a situation right now where everything is changing, the sands, the grounds below us are altering on every single day. So we want to take this opportunity again. Appreciate you checking in with us today on your Saturday. Please go to insidetexas.com. We're still offering that $1 for one month of subscription. It's, honestly, the probably the best deal in sports you can get right now. So please come check us out. We really appreciate your time and you sticking with us on this Saturday hook 'em.
LC, Paul, and Ian look at all the teams that hung around long enough to see some success. Can Texas do that in the coming years?
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