Christian Music Industry Podcast

Understanding the Booking Side of Christian Music with Tim Robinson, Founder of Aligned Talent Agency

Tim Robinson is a dedicated booking agent in the Christian music industry, with a career that began in the 1990s. He has a rich background that includes managing bands, running a music venue, and founding a Christian music festival in Colorado. After a semi-retirement phase, Tim was invited to join Greg Oliver Agency (GOA), where he further developed his expertise. Following the agency's closure, he established Aligned Talent Agency (ATA) to continue his mission of connecting artists with meaningful opportunities. Based in Spring Hill, Tennessee, Tim leads a small team focused on building relationships and finding gigs for artists while emphasizing the importance of serving ministries and uplifting communities through music.

Learn more about Aligned Talent Agency: alignedtalentagency.com

CONNECT WITH US:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Wisdom Moon on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Lula Music Group⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Lula Music Group on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Lula Street Records⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Christian Music Industry Podcast on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pure Mosaic Collective⁠

Duration:: 1h 0m
Broadcast on:: 29 Oct 2024
Audio Format:: other

- You're listening to the Christian Music Industry Podcast, powered by Pure Mosaic Collective. I'm your host, Wisdom Moon, and we're here to share wisdom and insights to help artists and songwriters navigate the Christian Music Industry. Let's get started. Hey friends, welcome back to the podcast today. I have a friend of mine who works in an area in the Christian Music Industry that we've never had anybody on the podcast from, so I'm really excited. And if you never listened to the podcast, I'm your host, Wisdom Moon, and we talk all things Christian Music Industry, and specifically for artists and songwriters, and we wanna really help equip artists, help empower artists and songwriters so that you can navigate this industry with as much knowledge and insight as possible, and also if you work in the industry, hopefully this is helpful as well, but today joining me here in the studio in Spring Hill, Tennessee is Tim Robinson, welcome to. - Hey, thank you Wisdom. Love what you're doing, man. I know we've been talking about it, but you're really helping a lot of people, so it's awesome. - Oh, thank you so much. So you work in probably the hardest aspect of the industry, I feel like you're saying that. (laughs) I'm thankful, I don't work in it, and I'm thankful for people like you that do it, and are passionate about it, so yeah, tell us a little bit about what you do, and how you got there. - Sure, yeah, yeah, so I'm the booking agent that no one ever talks about, right? (laughs) So, I mean, what we do is, I mean, we book gigs, I mean, that's what it comes down to, and we're just out hunting, trying to find opportunities, for artists, that's our daily, you know, of reaching out to, you know, churches, venues, whatever we find, festival's fairs. So I've been kind of in and out of the music business since the '90s, actually, I'm really old, I know. But, you know, I started back then, just kind of managing bands, and then I had my own venue for a while, and then from there, I continued to kind of end the management style things, you know, you know how it is in this business you wear every hat. So that's kind of how I learned, and then in Colorado, I started and ran a Christian Music Festival for eight years. My wife and I started that, that was a lot of fun, a lot of work, and then, you know, I always had one foot out and in, every time I tried to get out, I would be called, you know, back in. I was always working with somebody in the music business, just not like a full-time gig. And then out of the blue, I got a call from Greg Oliver with GOA, and he's like, "What are you doing?" And at the time, I was kind of semi-retired, and he's like, "Well, you wanna come join our booking agency?" So I moved here to Big Spring Hills, Tennessee, and started working for them, and then Greg decided to close that down, and just concentrate on speaker side, and I ended up taking that over and opening the line, telling agency. So that's kind of a real short story. I mean, there's a lot in between, but that's, yeah. - Wow. So when you were doing festivals, and you did it for a long time, was it more of your desire to do something that wasn't really happening in your area? 'Cause I feel like typically festivals, there's like one per area or something from what I've seen. - Yeah, I mean, it was multiple things, but the biggest thing for me was, when I moved to this small town in Colorado, it felt dark to me. So I felt like I need to bring something positive to the community, and they had beautiful parks there, that really were kind of underutilized. So the funny thing is, and I tell people this, my wife and I put the first festival together in three weeks. - Oh, wow. - I mean, it was like, we got after it. - Wow. - And so, and God bless that. And then we just continue to try to, you know, make it a little bit bigger and better every year. It never was a huge festival, but it did what I wanted to do. It made community people that you probably wouldn't get in a church, they came out to a park to hear music. - That's awesome, so. I've always been curious about people that put on festivals, and basically like, why a festival versus a concert? Like, I've put on a lot of concerts, and I've even done conferences and retreats. Festivals, to me, just sound so daunting, you know? - Yeah, you know, we had amazing volunteers, and there was definitely times where like, why are we doing this? 'Cause we, literally you would work and work and work, and you know, the show would come, and then you would work and work and work afterwards. But it was, you know, you're trying to bring some positive to people, and that's what I always just kept on top of my mind. You know, I would say without good teams, festivals are extremely hard, you know, but it can be done, if I can do it anyway. (laughing) - So, you went to Greg Oliver agency, also. - Why are all the booking agencies like initials? - I don't know, I don't know. - G-O-A, and yours is A-T-A. - A-T-A, yeah. - I just did it because everybody else was. I don't know. - Yeah, it's interesting how, you know, on the label side, nobody really does that, but then booking-wise, everybody goes by initials. - Yeah. - And then, I guess, in order to do that, you create three words in the name, so it's like three letters. - Well, it was funny because I didn't go after, I didn't think of A-T-A, I just thought of a line because I felt like God was aligning a lot of stuff together, you know, for me? And I just felt like that was the word that came to me for the name, and then I kind of looked and go, like, do A-T-A because everybody else is, you know? And I wanted to shorten the domain down, you know, the name, but it was already taken, so I had to stay with the longer, but anyway. - Yeah, I feel like everything's taken, like anything.com is taken there, unless you, yeah, do something really long. - Right, right. - Yeah, that's tough. So, how long ago did you start A-T-A? - Man, it's only been, I guess, four months now. - Oh, wow. - Yeah, it's been, I think it's been about four months. I don't know, time, it's going so fast. Every day's a blur, you know, like, a day's over? (laughs) - So, okay, so what does your day-to-day look like? - Well, my day-to-day is, I mean, my day-to-night, let me put it that way. Really, the work never stops. You always have emails coming in, you know, so my day starts in the morning, there's just answering emails. And then, typically, I have a, I have, you know, if I have meetings or whatever, 'cause there's a, you know this, was a mirror, you're in like meetings all day, you got like me, so, you know, what we're trying to do is just build relationships and network for artists and find opportunities, and sometimes that's working with other agencies, or other managers, whatever. But it really varies, but I do have days where I block out everything, and I'm just a cold caller. Yeah, I do a lot of cold calling, a lot of emails. The weird thing is, is that people don't like cold calls anymore, you know, it's like, so you're like, "Why are you calling me?" - Yeah. (laughs) - So, emails tend to work, and then texting, you know, trying to get some text out. Seems to work a little better than just a cold call in these days. - That's interesting, yeah, 'cause, I mean, it wasn't even that long ago, we all had phones to make phone calls, (laughs) now it's like, you don't really use phones for phone, like you're not supposed to. (laughs) - Yeah, I mean, are you, you know this, you call somebody, and you're trying to have a conversation, and they're like, you can't get anything out of 'em, 'cause they don't talk on the phone. - Yeah. (laughs) - So, yeah, it's pretty interesting. - Yeah, wow. So, yeah, it sounds like you have a full busy day every day, and is it just you, or what does your team look like? - No, I have three other people that work with me, and, you know, typically they're, what we do is we have territories. So, the other three have territories of the states. I just oversee the business, and, you know, the day-to-day, and try to keep up with the offers coming in, and things like that. - Yeah. So, it's basically like somebody has the West Coast, Midwest, and then East Coast kind of that. - Yeah, and maybe any state that they lived in, or they, you know, have family in, or something, and we'll give 'em that state. - Okay, and then each person is then calling and emailing people, and that-- - Yeah, yeah, so, I mean, the way it works in our businesses, you know, like, for instance, if I'm booking for whoever it may be, what we'll try to do is we'll try to get a game plan together. So, like, hey, I wanna do 10 days in, you know, Alabama, whatever. - Yeah. - So, then whoever's in that region, we'll start working on that, and reaching out. - Yeah. - And then, for us, you know, I was blessed with a big database, so it helps for us to be able to reach out, you know, maybe is more like a blast, or able to get to more people quickly. - Yeah. - Without you just having to go Google, and be like, "Oh, let me go find some churches," or, you know, so it's a little easier. It's still not easy, but it does help a little bit with, you know, reaching more people quicker. - Yeah, and I think when I was saying earlier that you're working the hardest part of the music business, to me, you know, 'cause I've talked to different booking agents, and even, you know, artists that are touring, or like, trying to tour, it's so tough, like, to get people to commit to bring somebody out, and for a booking agent, like, you're off of commission, and you have to, so one other question is actually, I asked people, "Do you have any questions "for a booking agent for this podcast?" And I had a lot of questions, so-- - Well, that's-- - One of the questions which ties into this is, what's a typical split? So, basically, I think they're asking what's your commission typically when you're working with an artist? - Our typical commission's 10 to 15%, depending on the artist. - Okay, so when we're talking 10, 15%, (laughs) somebody gets booked $1,000, you know, for a gig. You're talking $100 for all of your work. - Right. - That's, I mean, that's a lot of work, you know. - It is, yeah, and it's funny because, like, if you go to, like, the Dove Awards, for instance, no one ever mentions their booking agents. (laughs) - That's so true. (laughs) - So, yeah, I mean, it's a ton of work, and, you know, I think to be a booking agent or an agency, you have to do it from a serving position. You know, like, I feel like I'm helping ministries reach other people that they wouldn't be able to do by themselves, so that's some mindset I take daily because you could, if you get in the money thing, it's like, oh my goodness, you know, you're not making a lot, but, you know. - You also don't want to be in a starving position. - That's right, that's right. So there is a balance there, I mean. - Yeah. - You know, that's, that's why we always try to, you know, with our roster, we try to keep our roster strength, you know, where you have, you know, you have the developing artist, but you maybe have some other ones that are, bring in a little more money. - So, one person that's, what's your ideal artist? (laughing) - That's a tough one. - Yeah, I don't know if there's, yeah. Probably some financial aspect to it where, I mean, 'cause you guys do so much work to book one show. - Yeah. - So, you know, 10% of a thousand, I mean, 'cause a lot of indie artists, a thousand is a lot to ask. - All right. - Even $100, it's so small, you know, to be able to support your team and your business and operations of everything. So, I'm sure there's a financial aspect of your ideal artist, but yeah, what are some things that you typically look for? - There's a lot of things we look at. I mean, I, so here, let me just back up a little bit. I'm the kind of guy that has a hard time saying no. So this, it gets me a trouble, you know? So I've figured out and found out that I definitely have to have that team around that I can say, okay, what do you think about this artist? 'Cause even if I like them, then I mean, yeah, anything. So we always tell people to think of it as we are salespeople. So can we sell the product that we're given? So there's a lot of variables to that. So we look at if the artist is not working and we're gonna outwork the artist, then that's not gonna be right for us. And we look at the team they have around them. If they have a team, they typically get it or at least have help around them. And then I always look at have they gigged or are they gigging? And do they have some music out that's, I mean, obviously it's got to be good music when you know that and be like, ah, you know? And we probably can't sell that. So there's a lot of variables. And we do use some software that looks at some different, we're scoring socials and things like that, just kind of looking at everything overall. I mean, I would tell any like newer artists, like for me, social media and streaming numbers means so much. We look at that social media is, to me, and you probably feel the same way wisdom, it's just it's huge, either make or break you. I mean, that's just the name of the game now. And there's a lot of people that just don't get it. - Yeah, it's really hard to convince artists to get it. They have to just get it on their own a lot of times because you could say all the right things and try to convince them, show them all the numbers and all the examples and case studies. But if they don't really embrace it and get it after all, they may get excited and maybe do it for a couple of weeks and then it'll fizzle out again. And yeah, I see that a lot with artists. And yeah, it is such a big part of music and like growing your fan base and things like that these days. And I would say also like now being an independent artist, there's a lot of opportunity. Like you don't have to always be signed to somebody. And there are a lot of independent artists that are touring a lot and making a living, doing what they love. So like I know some booking agencies I've talked to, they basically say they have to be signed to a label, they have to have national radio play and things like that. Like are those important factors? - Not necessarily. I mean, for me, the label thing I think used to be way bigger than it is now from a booking side. I would take streaming numbers over being signed to a label any day because that's real. People are actually listening to your music. And in a lot of the labels, and I'm not speaking bad about labels 'cause they're needed is they're going and producing a song. But after that, they're not really given the artist much. They don't know what to do after that, I guess, it's the point. So I don't necessarily look at that. And then as far as radio goes, I mean, obviously that's always a plus and it's pretty rare. I mean, if I would love for, hey, I've got the number three song right now, I wanna join her agency. It doesn't happen that way and typically. So unless it's just one that's wanting to move on to a different agency. - Yeah. And you know this 'cause you're involved in so much in the music businesses that radio's changed a lot too. I mean, it's going to streaming, it's not, it's always been where it's a certain people are being played and it's still that way. But with all the online and streaming type stuff, it's really changing for the independent artists. They're able to somewhat compete and be heard, which is really great. - Okay, so I think that gives a little hope for the people that are not signed, that are not touring, are not on the radio. So when it comes to social media and streaming numbers, 'cause obviously Spotify makes it pretty easy to see all the numbers, most of the other platforms don't. So when you're diving in to those numbers, what is it good in the care of, okay, this artist is ready for booking. Are there certain like minimum numbers that you're looking at? - I wouldn't say a minimum number. I mean, because I'm looking at a lot of different things at that point. - Yeah. - I would say like, for me, if an artist has never booked themselves, they're not ready for an agency. - Yeah. - And I say that because they need to know how hard it is. And number, the second part of that, and I tell a lot of artists on my roster, you know a lot of the artists on my roster, is that you will learn who you are and how to sell yourself if you start booking yourself. - Yeah. - You'll start getting the same feedback and understanding what you need to work on as an artist, or I don't fit in that style. I need to move over to here. This is what people are pushing me. So I definitely push people. I would probably say that's probably the most important that we look at. - Yeah. - Are they gigging at all, you know, or are they, you know, playing in shows? - Yeah. - Yeah, I don't know also if you intentionally, I guess work with a lot of kind of up-and-coming artists or independent artists, but personally, I've realized for myself, I love helping build things. And even with artists, I love helping artists build their ministry and career and, you know, fan base. I've worked with, you know, big artists and artists that have been doing this for 20 plus years. I love them and I love working with them, but there's something about, I think, the way God's wired me. I am able to really help, you know, up-and-coming artists and I'm really passionate about that. So is that something that you feel like you guys are excited about or, you know, whether it's like personally or as a company, as a team? - Yeah, it's funny you said that because I feel like everyone on my team loves artist development. So, you know, not to say that we don't want to work with, you know, some big artists, but we really love to pour into artists that are in development. - Yeah. And not only from a booking side, but from a feedback side. Because that's one thing I don't think artists understand is when you have a booking agent, we hear a lot of different things. There's a lot of truth to it because they're not talking directly to the artists. So we can really get some real feedback, you know. But yeah, I'm the same as you is, I love building. Always been that way, I'm an entrepreneur. And it's the same thing in what I'm doing now. Like if I can see something in an artist that I really feel like there's something there, then we'll definitely take a chance. - Yeah, that's awesome. So what are some critical feedback you've gotten or negative feedback, whatever you want to say it, about artists, whether, you know, currently that you're working with or previously that have been really helpful to you as a booking agent. And also my follow-up question to that would be how have some artists responded, you know, to certain feedback and were they receptive and teachable? - Yeah, that's a great question or questions. I've had feedback of just saying, you know, the typical of like they were so wonderful to work with, you know. And we want them back, if we get that, then we know that the artist is doing something because it's so competitive now too, you know. So you're trying to make a difference when you go in. One thing that I would really, you know, try to tell any artist is, and we've got this on the negative feedback. Don't hide in the back room. - Because those people that are sitting out there, you're fans, they're the ones that actually pay your bills. - Yeah. - And if you show face and you're real, the positive is going to come out, you know, and they're going to want you back. I mean, I have, I have a, I'm just going to say their name. I have love in the outcome on our roster. They've been doing it a long time, people love them. And they get requested back wherever they go because they just love on people, you know, and some don't, it's a transaction. So I would just say that it's very important to, I don't know that I answered your question, but I was just, 'cause I've gotten all a lot of different weird feedbacks, you know. Like, oh, they didn't like our food, oh, I'm sorry, you know. Like, I don't want to tell you or something like that. - So there's been some, there's been some weird ones for sure. - Yeah. - Have you found artists that you've worked with that when they get feedback where, you know, you relate to feedback, they are really receptive and they want to hear honest feedback versus, I guess, you know, have you had artists that get really defensive when you give them feedback? - Mixture. - Yeah. - And what do you prefer? - I mean, obviously you, when we give feedback, we're not trying to break down anybody, we're just telling them what we heard or, and sometimes we go to the artists for clarification. 'Cause it may not even have been that. - Yeah. - It's like, oh, no, it didn't happen that way. But, you know, I would say this, the successful ones and the good ones take feedback and take it, you know, like, great, I'm gonna work on that. The ones that are probably struggling probably don't take feedback very well. - Yeah. - So. - Yeah. It's so hard, you know, even from the artist perspective because it's almost like their identity, you know, in so many ways, their music and their artist brand and creatives are also usually very emotional. - Yeah. - And it is hard to hear feedback at the gazza creative, especially about their art or their performance or, you know, whatever it might be because it is so personal to them. And, I mean, maybe the artists that the venue said didn't like their food maybe didn't say that. And like the food, maybe they just think a second. (laughing) - Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because I don't think any of us really like to hear the feedback. I mean, it'd be truth be told. - Yeah. - But sometimes you just have to kind of grit your teeth and go, you know what? I'm gonna look at that more. Maybe they're right, you know, so. - Yeah. - Anyway, yeah. - Yeah, I think I've found it to be helpful with a lot of artists where I relay the feedback and then let them process it for a couple of days and then reconvene because a lot of times the initial reaction is defensive and, you know, wanting to kind of, you know, tell your side of the story. But then if they're mature enough and they can sit and process, they might come back and be like, yeah, I totally get what they're saying and, you know, I'm gonna work on that. Those are the artists I love working with, you know? (laughing) - Yeah. Well, a lot of times too, like you, we will give that feedback to a manager and then they can relay it to the artist and if the artist wants to talk to us, that's great. But, you know, I mean, we could get off on that side too, which that's one of the things why I think management's important, you know, just where it's not like, 'cause when you're an artist, like you just talked about, you're so, that's your baby. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? And that's your heart. So it's hard for people to come in between that or just say anything negative. - Yeah. - Yeah. So anyway. - Yeah. Somebody asked, what are common misconceptions about your job? (laughing) - That when I sign with an agency, I'm gonna have so many bookings. - I'm gonna be so busy. - Yeah. - That's, I mean, that's just totally not true. And we never tell anybody that, you know, so it's what we tell everybody is we're, it's, we're basically a marketing company. You know, that's really what we are, especially for unknown artists. - Yeah. - We spend more time selling who they are and their music than just like, ah, give me another booking, you know? So it's, it takes so much time. - Yeah. - And then there's just like this really weird momentum of just like this switch that you just feel internally when you're in a booking agency for certain artists. - Yeah. - Here they go. - Yeah. - You know, when you just, you can feel it. - So that makes sense. - Yeah, but that would be one. And the other one that I, that I know and could be possibly true is that we just sit around and wait for the phone to ring. And that's far from the truth. - Yeah. - I mean, there's just no way. Now, if you have one, maybe two big artists that then you could probably do that, but with a roster of smaller artists and things like that, you're, you're definitely making a lot out, out, outgoing calls. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - What are, this is another question somebody sent to what are the approaches used for tours, festivals, and album launches? I don't know if you guys do much around like actual album releases, but. - No, we don't, we're not normally, they leave a side of that. (laughing) Yeah, we don't do much on that. Other than maybe doing a radio tour, you know, we might do something like that of routing, you know, to radio stations. - Yes. - Tying in shows, but festivals, festivals are, we have a track record, a GOA that, we have a ton of festivals that reach out to us already. And we're always just searching for new festivals 'cause they pop up all over the place. - Yeah. - You know, so we're always just reaching out to them, submitting our artists. Typically, well, we've learned from a festival they kind of want your whole roster. Like give me your roster and give me your prices. Or they say, I want an artist from 20 to 30,000 and I open her from five to six and you just give them that. So that's kind of it on the festival side of things. And they're kind of weird, some start booking, you know, right after their festival's over. And then other ones book, you know, like a little ways out. So it's just, it's really all over the place. - Yeah. - I don't remember what the other part of that question was, but. - That album launches, but I don't think, yeah. - Oh, okay, yeah. - You said they leave you out, yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - He'll let you deal with that. - So do you personally prefer the tours or festivals or does it matter to you? - It doesn't matter to me. I mean, well, from a financial standpoint. - Yeah, both. - I prefer festivals. They typically pay better. - Okay. - You know, the tour, depending on how, you know, if you're the headliner of the tour, if I'm booking the headliner, then it's pretty good. If I'm booking an opener, you know the game. It's many times with unknown artists or indie artists, they're just happy to be on the tour. - Yeah. - So they may just be selling merch or making $100. - Yeah. - So. - We're buying onto a tour. - Right. - You pay. - Right. So it's just a mixture. - Yeah. - I'm motivated by challenge though. So for me, like if I was taking a tour on, it's pretty exciting. 'Cause they're like, hey, we're gonna do 10 cities. Let's go. - Yeah. - You know, you have to have that mindset, this crazy side of the business. - Yeah. - You won't make it. (both laughing) - In booking agencies, the 10 to 15%, are you taking a 10 to 15% on all of their revenue or just things you book? How does that work? - Just whatever we secure. So like if it's just a guarantee, we don't take anything for merch sales or anything like that. - Okay. - Yeah. I think a lot of people don't know, you know, how that all works 'cause it's such a mystery to most people, especially, you know, I think up until ATA was birthed a few months ago, most booking agencies won't even talk to independent artists to even give them information, you know, like this is how things work, you know? So yeah, it's such a mystery, but so many artists want to, you know, figure it out and learn how to get to the point where they're ready for a booking agency. But if they're not giving much information from the agency side or they don't even know what to aim for, you know, so I'm glad we're able to unpack and unveil some of this today. - Yeah, no, I appreciate it, yeah. - Yeah, another question I got is, what mistakes do artists typically make working with you or using your services? - Mistakes? I don't know how to answer that one, just because I mean, I mean, I don't know if they make any mistakes by using our service. - I mean, other than, I mean, honestly, other than I'm just saying it's not, you know, it's not what I thought it was going to be. That's the only thing I could think of. - One thing I think you recently even mentioned to me was where, you know, artists should be trying to book things as well, because yeah, like what you said earlier, it's also when people sign to labels in their mind, it's like, if I sign to a label, all my problems go away, they do all the work. It's saying for booking, you know, people will just have this idea of if I sign with a booking agency, they do all the booking. I don't have to worry about it again. They're going to magically fill my calendar with the exact number of dates I want, you know. - Right, yeah, no, that's, you know, I wasn't thinking of that as a mistake, but yeah, I guess, to your point, like, I guess them just quit working, you know, like, and you see it a lot of times, even with them having, you know, they put a single out that does well, and then it's like, I'm just going to, I don't have anything else. And it's like, well, we need more. But yeah, I would say that. I mean, that's a big one is, it takes an army to book, you know, and it takes, you know, management, it takes artists reaching out to other artists. That's one that I think has really missed a lot of times is artists building relationships with other artists, because, and I talk to every agency almost daily. And many of the tours that people see are the artists putting them together. So, you know, it's just, they come to the agent and say, "Hey, I won't sew and sew on this," 'cause I like them, you know, like. So, you know, if you take anything from this podcast, I would say, like, if you're an artist, man, go make friendships, you know, and just connect. 'Cause it might get you on something bigger, for sure. - Yeah, I would echo that. And also caution people in becoming opportunistic with relationships and friendships. - Yeah. - 'Cause I see that a lot in this town, where somebody says, "Oh, I'm gonna connect with so-and-so." 'Cause maybe they'll let me open for their show, you know, which becomes very transactional. And you're basically going into it, wanting to use that relationship. And then when they're not useful, you probably can move on to the next one, you know. And this town and the industry is so relational that if you start doing that, you'll quickly burn pressure. - Yeah, yeah. And I don't think a lot of people where it allows how small it is. Like, everyone knows everyone. - Yeah. - And it's the weirdest thing. I mean, like, like, I would tell you something and then, you know, five people later out here that, you know, we would be talking about the same thing. It's just like, yeah, this is so weird, you know? - Yeah. - That's one thing I love about it, too, though, is just that the relationships, the family, it's just one big family. - Yeah. - So yeah, that's a great point you brought up the wisdom because people can see that and they know if you're, you know, being real or you're, you know, just trying to use them. But there is a step to that that I think there's a myth to a lot of times is that it's okay to ask. And I think that a lot of people build their relationships and they really truly friends with someone, but they never ask them, hey, do you ever need a support person? I'd love to join you on a tour. Maybe they're gonna say yes or no. - Yeah. - So, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, as long as you can't be shy about those kind of things. - Yeah, yeah. - For sure. So you see a lot of artists in town in Iraq with a lot of them. You see a lot of them at different events and I'm sure a lot of them reach out to you. So from your vantage point, what are some things that help you basically recognize, okay, there's something about this artist. Maybe they're not huge yet, but you see something with them and you see that potential, you know, and something's gonna happen with this artist before maybe, you know, like everybody else can see it. You know, with the public numbers or whatever on social media or streaming. But yeah, when you're interacting and meeting artists, are there things that indicate those things to you? - Yeah, yeah, there is. I mean, I think you meet certain artists that get it. And what I mean by that is like, they understand how important relationships are. And if you go to one of their events or even to a networking event and they're there and they are talking to people and you can see people who are just connecting really well with them, chances are they're gonna make it. Because I don't care what you say, it's still about relationships. And if people don't like you, they're not gonna put you on tours. They're not gonna pay for you to come to their church. You know, they're not gonna buy your music. - Yeah. - So I feel like I look for that of like really real conversations. And you have a ton of conversations too. You can tell the canned, like, that's not sincere. And I'm like, this person said this a million times, you know, before. So yeah, I mean, that's something I look at. And I don't know, I can't explain it, but there's just this feeling. And you see it in the movies and stuff. Oh, that person has it or whatever. You feel that. When you're in front of people, sometimes you're like, man, something special about this person. You can't really pinpoint it, but you can feel it. - Yeah. - So anyway. - Yeah, definitely. I wanna open the can of worms. - Oh. - Is that okay? I wanna ask you a pretty controversial question. - Sure. - 'Cause I grew up in the church world. I worked in ministry for a long time, and I've been a worship leader for a long time. And, you know, like I mentioned, I've put on concerts and things like that. And there's this whole controversy around, should you charge people to come to your show if you're a Christian artist, especially if you're a worship artist. Apparently that's a sin if you charge people. There's whole websites out there for this topic, basically saying, basically that is a sin, and if you charge people for the gospel, quote unquote. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, and maybe we can get some hate mail for this. I would love to hear some hate mail. - Yeah, no, I'll give you my address. I feel like, to me it's disturbing, just to be truthful with you. I mean, because it is an art that they're working on, it is their living, to me I always compare it to this. So if I saw a painter, an artist, that I love the painting, but they told me they're a Christian, should I just walk, I can't buy that then, can you give it to me? - Yeah. - 'Cause it took them time to put that art together. It was the same with music. - Yeah. - These songs aren't just produced out of nowhere. I mean, there's a lot of money being spent on the other side of that, a lot of time, a lot of work. So for me, I always push back on that. 'Cause we deal with a lot of places that tell us just what you said, wisdom, and they go on my naughty list. That's awesome, you know, it's like, ah, that one's not, but you know, I can remember, this was years ago when I was doing Booking, I can remember telling a guy, I don't remember how I worded it, but he said something like that, and I asked him, just flat out, do you work for free? And he went silent, like, he didn't know how to respond. And I said, why should this person work for free? - Yeah. - And it flipped him like that. And I don't know if he never thought about it. But I mean, there's this fine line there though, wisdom, and you know it, there's some artists that are taking advantage of it and saying, "Oh, you can have me for a million dollars," or whatever. Not in the Christian side of things, but anyway. But yeah, I am 100% for artists making something. They shouldn't have to do it for free. - Yeah, yeah, I've had those conversations a lot. And yeah, typically it's somebody that doesn't do music or at least for a living, they don't work in the industry. And my first question is, "Oh, what do you do for a living?" You know, if they're in the counter or whatever, and I'll ask them, "So you're a Christian, and do you do accounting? So do you do that for free? Because you're a Christian, for other Christians, you know, like if you're expecting artists to do the best that they can and create the best music that they can, you know, for the Lord and to be a ministry, you know, to people, then how can they do that if they can't, you know, have any compensation, and it's all expected to be done for free. Yeah, it is, I mean, I don't really understand the argument, I guess, I mean, they use scripture and everything too, so it sounds all, you know, like, "Oh, this is a great argument." But then if you really think about it, we all have to provide for our families, we have to pay bills. And yeah, I mean, if I don't have to pay bills, I would do everything I do for free, 'cause I love it, you know, it just doesn't work that way. No, and I mean, we could really open can of worms, you know, referring to the church stuff, but, you know, I mean, it's, you know, worship teams are getting bigger and bigger. And they're, a lot of times paid. So, I mean, you could get in that argument there of like, "Well, why aren't they just serving?" Well, they are. Yeah. Right, so it's, I mean, it's, we could probably have a whole episode just about that. You can be a whole podcast. (laughing) Well, we would get some good mail, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think the music industry the Christian music industry, it is, it is really like sometimes hard to navigate because it's like the ministry side, but then there's this whole other side, the business side, I'll call it, that makes everything work. And that makes everything continue to work, you know, and able to help art, 'cause, you know, most artists aren't focused on the business side, like a lot of them aren't business savvy. And if they had to do that, as well as be an artist, I mean, it will, really a lot of times, just suck the creativity out of them. Yeah. So I think there is a need for the business side and for people like you that, you know, help with, I mean, there's so much that goes into booking all the logistics and details. And if the artists have to do it all to themselves, a lot of artists would just quit. Yeah, I definitely would, if I had to do all that. Yeah, yeah. And also there's the whole joke, you know, I'm sure most people I've heard about like, yeah, the blue M&Ms or whatever, you know, in the green room, and how, you know, artists, I guess more, bigger artists are known to ask for very big things or they feel like are, I guess, yeah, just a little bit on the diva side of the things. So what are your thoughts on asking for certain things like that? It's funny, it's funny you say that, it's like, I review writers right off the bat. When we sign an artist, either we tell them that the need a writer and we'll still review it. And if I review, and I can give you people, I'm not gonna name them, they're on my roster now that I'm like, where did you get this writer? 'Cause it doesn't even match who they are. And they don't even know what's on it. Oh, wow. Like literally, they have no clue of what, and it is stuff like that, you know, of like, well, I need, you know, only eat, you know, this certain brand, the bread, and this and that, because what they've done is they, number one, they don't, they don't even know how to write a writer, write a writer. Yeah, that's kinda weird. So they're just taking what they find, and they're just throwing their info on it, and they don't even really look through it. So, I definitely try to do that. What we do from a booking agency standpoint is, I don't typically send the writer, until I get to know who I'm talking with and what they're looking for, right? 'Cause if you send a writer right off the bat, and they look at that, then most of the people that, well, a lot of the people we deal with don't, they never book the concert, or they're not, like, they don't even know what the writer means. So if they see that like that, like, I need blue towels folded this way, you know what I mean? They're gonna be like, oh, we can't do this. So we try to build a relationship with them first, and then we'll send the writer over, and a lot of times I'll explain it. Like, hey, I just wanna talk to you about the writer. It's just a wish list. No, you know, don't get, don't let it scare you. - Yeah. - Yeah, but we see it. We see it, even with these indie artists. I mean, the writers are just like nuts. - So maybe for people that don't know what you're referring to, what is a writer? - It's basically, there's two parts to it. Typically it's a hospitality writer, which is saying, you know, like, we can only eat this, or we prefer this, and we need a green room, or whatever. It kind of explains things that they need. And then there's a kind of a technical writer part. A lot of times they're together, and that's telling them, like, we need, you know, 24 inputs, and this and that. We need a drum kit. We need, you know, then it's really getting in more of the technical side of things. - Okay. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah, and I've looked through a lot of writers too, and I mean, some of them like, I don't know that many churches that would be able to pull this off. You know, like, there was one that I saw where they required an armed security person at all times next to the artist, the whole time that the artist is there. And I get the safety, security side of it, especially for a younger, you know, female artist, I get that, and immediately my thought was, 'cause I'm trying to assume the best about the artist, you know, something must have happened at some point, you know, but they didn't have this. And so, and in the writer, it basically says, this is non-negotiable. - Wow. (laughs) - Wow. - So that eliminates a lot of churches that get to potentially host them. So, yeah, I guess, what are your recommendations when it comes to a writer, maybe somebody's trying to put together a writer for themselves? What are, what should be the non-negotiables versus things that they should be flexible on? - You know, I think the non-negotiables would be, you know, if you do have an allergic, you know, you're allergic to something, you know, on a food side of things. - You're allergic to people. (laughs) - Yeah, I wanna stay in the back room. You know, I would think, well, I know, like, make sure that your sound side is dialed in. Like, I mean, that is probably, especially when you're working with churches, that's probably the side that I would really take a lot of time on, make simplifying. And, you know, kind of making it where it's a little bit easier for them to understand. Some of our artists go out in different ways. You know, they might go out as a duo, a trio. I would highly recommend having a writer for each one of those. - Yeah. - It just really helps with that. But yeah, I mean, that's probably the two things that I would say you definitely want. - Yeah. - I mean, all the other stuff of like, you know, I need a 10 by 10 room with this and that. - Right, I mean, I don't know if it's that necessary. - Yeah. - That's just my opinion. - I need essential oils. - Right. - And calming music playing in the background. - Yeah, yeah. - What's up with all the black towels that everybody asks for in the writer? - I have no clue. I thought you could tell me that. I don't know. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm not sure. - I figured it's first wet, you know, but yeah, it's specifically black for every single writer that I've seen that asks for that. - Yeah, I don't know. I've never really, I've never asked that question, but now I'm going to. (laughing) I don't think I've ever really had anybody. Oh, yeah, I did. Not too long ago, someone asked me, "Do we really have those black towels?" I said, "I just said no." (laughing) Nah, you don't need-- - You're pretty cool. (laughing) - Yeah, I'm assuming it's for sweat and stuff, I guess. And black doesn't show as much. - I mean, maybe somebody that listens to all your podcasts can answer that, huh? - Yeah. - Why do you need black towels? (laughing) - So closing out, my final question for you is with all the, you know, all that you see as a bookie agent and, you know, working with, 'cause you do work with, cornicle with like a level artist all the way down to like really, you know, new artists and you see the gamut. And what would be your encouragement, you know, as, I mean, it's kind of crazy to say but we're like heading into the new year 2025. (laughing) - Where'd the year go? (laughing) - What would be something that you would encourage them to really focus on or grow in that can help them maybe be able to go on the road more than 2025? - I think we talked about it earlier, but I would say, you know, it's probably three things that come top of my mind. It's like, you know, build relationships, like real relationships. And what I mean by that is go to every networking event you can go to, you know, that's gonna be around people that potentially can make a difference in your career. And then, you know, as far as your social media is just, I mean, you have to do it. - Yeah. - And, you know, it's a must, it's not any consistency. And that's the same on a booking side. If you ever wanna book yourself, you gotta be consistent. And then, I would say the third would be, we talked about it is learn how to book yourself, learn how to sell your music and sell yourself. Because that's so hard, like if I would walk up to some artists and say, tell me how it's sell you to someone that's a buyer, they probably wouldn't be able to. - Yeah. It's your elevator pitch. - Why are you different than all the other ones? - Yeah. - You know, so. - That's good. I do need to ask a follow-up question, because this comes up a lot too and can be controversial. Your first point of, you know, building relationships, going to networking events, do you feel that artists that are wanting to pursue this full-time, that they need to be here like they need to move to Nashville? - I would say it helps. Yeah, I mean, you know, I always heard it 'cause I didn't live in Nashville, you know, and always heard it. And then you don't understand it until you get here. - Yeah. - And like literally you and I both know this. We could go to events every night. - Oh yeah. (laughing) - Multiples. - So I think like, if you wanna be around people that are doing what you're doing and maybe doing it in an elevated beyond you, you need to be in the middle of that, because the people around you are gonna, I mean, if they're better than you, you're gonna come up to that level. So yeah, I would, probably a year ago I would have said no, but now I'd say probably yeah. - Yeah. - What about you? I wanna ask you that question. (laughing) - Yeah, I mean, I would say now I've been here close to three months, I've been back. And I was very adamant about no, you don't need to move to Nashville and you can, you know, do what you do. And I would also give examples, there's, you know, even certain like churches that are not in Nashville that are making a huge impact, like elevation worship is huge, they're not in Nashville. Beth told music and, you know, artists as well that aren't in town that are writing the biggest songs and touring all over the world and things like that. But yeah, having been back, I think I have a different outlook on it now, even from my first time being here. And because before I even moved to Nashville, I was hosting some songwriting retreats and things like that. I would come to Nashville and host it with some friends and invite people from all over the country. And I had a lot of people actually that came to those retreats end up moving to Nashville and probably within two to three years of it. And I would always go, man, you don't have to move here to, you know, pursue this. But yeah, I think being back for three months, I feel like there's a lot more actually now that are very like indie artists friendly that happen in town that I feel like would be really helpful. And a lot more indie artists are here now because of the migration of just, you know, I mean, Nashville has just become this huge hub of Christian music now, even more than six years ago when me lives here. And so it does make collaboration so much easier for artists, even if you're not trying to get signed. I think my thing was don't move to Nashville to get signed. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. - That was my big thing. But yeah, even if you're not getting signed, I think for collaboration purposes, I think it's really great to be here because like somebody might be listening to this in Canada. I have a lot of artists that I've worked with in Canada. - I have a lot on my roster. - Yeah, and I was gonna say, actually, a lot of them would never even meet you in person if they just stayed in Canada, never visited Nashville. But if they lived here, they may have run into you at a coffee shop, you know? - Right, right. - So, yeah. - I mean, the other part of that is if you can't live here and I get it, maybe you don't wanna live here, make sure you have good people here that can be on this, you know, kind of the street for you. - Yeah. - Like good management, people like that that are building those connections for you. - Yeah, and I think the other thing you can do if you're not ready to move is making visits, you know, twice to four times a week over a month, a year. - Four times a week? - Yeah, just make a lot of trips, you know, hopefully you have a private jet. (laughing) - Well, yeah, I think, you know, just a few times a year can, you know, like if you manage to plan things out well, like you can accomplish a lot, just making some trips. I think the other thing to sometimes artists, I think move your prematurely when they're not ready and they shouldn't. And they come and try to knock on all the doors and because they feel they're ready and they don't understand why nobody else sees that, whether it's a booking agent or a label or a manager, and then they get frustrated and then they become bitter and then they move back or whatever. I've seen that a lot, or they just turn into real estate agents, that's a big thing to do. - So, yeah, I mean, it's so competitive too because I mean, there's so much talent here. - Yeah. - I mean, it's unbelievable. So like, if I was gonna move to Nashville as an artist, I would probably make sure I do like 50 gigs a year already, you know, where you have like a backbone, you come here of like, look, I've been doing this, you know, so it's, you're not just a new artist walking in, ask for help, you're someone established. - Yeah, and yeah, like make sure the only people that are affirming your gift aren't your parents. - Right. (laughing) - I mean, we've seen that on, you know, American Idol and (laughing) - I get calls and emails and believe me, I love that artists reach out, but I mean, yeah. It's hard to tell them that, but you have to. - Yeah. (laughing) - You know, I mean, it's a competitive world. - Yeah, yeah. I think if you're trying to do it professionally and as a vocation, it is competitive. It's a tough business. - Really tough. - So. - Yep, for sure. - Yeah, Tim, thank you so much for being on the podcast. - Thank you, I enjoyed it, it's fun. - Yeah, it's been really great. And I feel like you gave us so much insight to this mysterious world of booking and booking. - The dark side. - Yeah, the dark side. (laughing) Yeah, I feel like what you do is oftentimes the most unappreciated line of work in the industry. And I love what you're doing. And I love that I get to kind of watch you, you know, build it and be able to partner with you and, you know, serving artists as well. - Yeah, thank you so much with some love what you're doing. And I mean, the future's very bright for you and I, I think working together more, so excited about it. - Thanks for listening to the Christian Music Industry podcast. I would love to hear from you. You can connect with me on Instagram or visit lulamusagroup.com. This episode was brought to you by Pure Mosaic Collective, bringing together diverse artistic voices to amplify the name of Jesus. Be sure to check out puremosaicollective.com or follow Pure Mosaic Collective on Instagram. (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music)