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Visit maxlawevents.com for full event details and to grab your ticket today. Run your law firm the right way. This is the maximum lawyer podcast. Your hosts, Jim Hacking, and Tyson Matrix. Let's partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the maximum lawyer podcast. I'm Jim Hacking. I'm Tyson Matrix. That was the most exciting intro you've done. How are you doing, Jimbo? I'm great. I'm great. How are you? This is our last recording session of the day, so I'm excited. Less than normal. We must have more than the can, which is good. Some days we've had like six. This is, I think, four for the day, so not too bad. I guess it's about normal. It's about normal. So four, not too bad, not too bad, but I'm really excited. We were just chatting with our guest, and it's going to be a good one. I love the bio. I think it's funny because of Jimbo and his immigration, but I just think it's fantastic. It's Julio Oyanarte is the world's most followed immigration lawyer. That's my favorite part of all of it, because Jim has spent a lot of time with it when it comes to people following him on YouTube and everything. I just think it's fantastic. I went through all your social media profiles, and I think that that's accurate. He is the most followed immigration lawyer with a community of 13 million followers and over two billion video views across social media. With more than 17 years of legal experience, he provides guidance and advocacy to immigrants worldwide. Love it. Julio, welcome to the show. Hi, Tyson. Hi, Jim. Thanks for having me. For sure. So we were introduced to Julio through our friend Ryan McKeen. Ryan thought Julio would be a great guest for us. I wanted to have him on because I wanted to ask sort of about some of the ways that he uses social media and teaches people in foreign countries about how to come to the United States. But Julio, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Social media is changing everything for lawyers. It started slow for me at first. The typical thing was creating these platforms with the name of my law firm, D.G.O. League. Nobody cared. Besides my mother and my siblings, I have seven siblings, so I had, plus my father, I had nine followers. Then I was like, this is wrong. We should do something that tries to connect more with people. And so I put, unfortunately, my face and my name, and we rebranded quite quickly, I would say, to immigration TV in English and immigration TV in Spanish. But we started in Spanish. So I have a question. It may be kind of a silly question, but I noticed in your videos you have a lot of energy. You've got a lot of energy. Just talking to you. I just, and beforehand, I can just tell you, you've got energy. Do you think that people with, that don't have your personality, your charisma, can still succeed on social media, YouTube, what you name it, or do you, or do you think there's sort of like a, there's a pocket of people for everybody? Because it does seem like people that are, have your energy do have more successful channels, whether it's on TikTok or YouTube or whatever maybe. So what are your thoughts on that? That's a good question. Actually, I think, yeah, I think everyone can succeed if they do the right thing. That being said, in this short form video world that we are living right now, this explosion on every platform, including LinkedIn right now, that's a new thing. I think that you have, you need to have at least some energy because that's creating more engagement. That being said, that the answer will depend on what are your goals? Do you want a lot of followers or do you want to expand your law firm or your business? Because I think like in the end, what's most important is that this may sound like a cliche, but you need to be authentic. If you don't have high energy, don't try to have high energy because never underestimate the public. People will know that you're posting as something that you are not. So for example, my business partner, John Franco, he's more not as energetic as myself, but his brain, he knows a lot about immigration and we go live together. We make videos together sometimes and he has some personality and a lot of people like him more over myself and that's perfect. So my advice would be, yeah, you need to have some, you know, engaging energy, but be yourself over anything, you know. Clio, how did your channels grow? How did your popularity grow? Talk about that. So I started slow, but then I started, I had a marketing advisor. This is 2020. And he said, you should do TikTok. Back in the day, TikTok was not like it was today. I was like, but I'm a lawyer, you know, it's like, I have a lot of years of experience, master's degree, working kong, blah, blah, blah, like I'm going to go to TikTok. That's for a little kid's dancing, you know. We lawyers are self aware that, you know, we are lawyers, blah, but I got that in my mind. I started doing some research about the platform and other platforms. It's like, okay, maybe this works for the marketing of my firm. And so I started looking at some other lawyers that were there already to see what were they doing, the things that were working for them, and then try to put my own thing, you know. And after doing a lot of research, not only among lawyers, but other creators, I posted my first, I call it my first horrible video because now I watch it and I cringe about it. But I did a few things that were right at that time and that video exploded. My first video, this is not the story that I started with 2000 videos. It never worked and suddenly one day, no, that's not my story. My story is that my first video exploded. That's not normal, but I did a lot of research before posting. And that, yeah, the first video worked, but I wouldn't recommend that to people, to lawyers, because I have this phrase that helped me a lot at the beginning, which is, and today, which is done is better than perfect. People try, and that's a way of masking our insecurities that we are not good enough for, people will like me or not, people will troll me. What I know, is it valuable about what I know to other people or not? Just put whatever you kind of first and start learning by doing, you know, that's, that's my advice. But, so my first video really exploded. It never stopped in Spanish. And then fast forward 2022, John Franco, told me, we should, you should do the videos in English as well. And as you can tell, I don't have a perfect English far from it. And I'm aware of that. I promise you, I'm much more intelligent in Spanish. I feel trapped in English. Anyways, I was like, yeah, in English, no, but I will make mistakes. A lawyer making mistakes while the lawyer is speaking is a bad thing for the brand. And, you know, okay, let's try and do it. First video got 1.4 million views on TikTok. I had zero followers. Why? Because I already had two years of experience. I knew what worked, what didn't. And my accent, my mistakes, doesn't matter. They don't matter. And it works anyway, even for an Argentinian trying to speak in English, you know, so that's not important. But yeah, and fast forward now we're reaching hopefully 14 million followers across platforms. Two billion video views is these numbers, I just don't understand them. That's what's going on. So yeah, that's a story. Yeah. So I want to ask you, you've got a really interesting background. Your grandfather was a Supreme Court justice in Argentina. You worked in the Argentine Congress. You worked in the judiciary and also in the private sector. And I don't know how big of a following you had or how well known you were in Argentina. But like, so if someone starts a channel today and they're really famous for something, they're going to get a lot of followers. How much of the success that you saw early on was because you were already sort of pretty well known, or was it sort of this recipe that you followed based on the research you had done on social media? Which would you attribute it to more? And if there was like, what sort of a recipe that you followed, what was that formula you were using? Okay. So no, I was not well known at all. Like, my name is well known because I'm named after my grandfather within the legal industry. He was a Supreme Court justice twice during a few years. And he is well respected, among lawyers and my law professors. But that didn't have any impact in social media at all. No, my formula was like, I think I had good timing, like entering a TikTok at the early stage. But I think it's not late at all. But I was one of probably the first lawyers there. There were some lawyers before me, as I said. But then I think the key was trying to, like my short form video worked really well. And that's bringing you a lot of good things, so short form video is good for a lot of things. But it's not good for other things. For good things are, bring awareness. So it's the top of your marketing funnel. You will be, people will look at you and see you. It's good to create, start building your email list, if you give a lead magnet of something of value in exchange for an email. And then you start gathering your own data to sell other stuff or send more information in the future. Yeah. So that was driving all the following. But that doesn't mean like short form content doesn't mean necessarily that you will get a lot of clients as a lawyer. It's for awareness, but it's not great to build community. It's not great to sign a client right away, because they just saw a 30 second video. For example, two days ago, I posted a video on Instagram, sorry, on TikTok in Spanish. It got 11 million views. That gave me over a hundred thousand emails from people interested in that video in exchange for a lead magnet. But that doesn't mean they will hire afterward. But I had a hundred thousand emails now. What was the lead magnet? I've got to ask, what was the lead magnet? Because that's impressive. So this is about a program that is really exciting for the immigrants, which is the diversity green card program or the green card lottery. The US gives away over 50,000 permanent residences, green card to foster diversity in immigration from countries with low immigration rates. And so people get really excited about this program because it's a huge price. And so I offer them a free guide giving them tips about the program, the requirements, and very simple, but given value. And so I told them, hey, the lottery is about to start. Don't use the word lottery on social media because you may get banned because of the community guidelines of, but the US is giving away 50,000 green cards. This is amazing. But there are some requirements, blah, blah, blah. Go to the link in my bio and download the guide for more information. So it's giving them something and it has to be of value. Don't try to trick people like to give them the email and then you give nothing. Now give them something that's good, you know, it's a way of creating trust and, you know, you need to give value all the time. That's part of my marketing is trying to give without asking in return. I see a lot of people trying to sell all the time. I don't do that. I just give information and then some people hire, you know, eventually I, yeah, I tell if you want more, pick in the link in my bio and then they can hire. But it's not, I'm not trying to sell all the time, you know, that's what I do. But yeah, and the same video worked in English, but half, it had five million views. So it also worked. So it's, these numbers are insane, but I'm offering something, you know, Julio, have you developed anything in between the free magnet and someone actually hiring you like a course or anything? Is there anything else that you've been able to do to work with that big list that you have? So what I do is first, you give a short form video, give in value, then at the end, the call to action should be, if you want more, you can get the free guide in the link in my bio. When they download that PDF or whatever you give them, you get the email. Then you have an automated email sequence, giving more free value or driving people to a YouTube video, I don't know, a 10 minute video or something like that, giving more, more insights. And every step of the way, they have a button to start the case with us. Then what I tried a few months ago was a free online course about asylum. It was like 14 classes, teaching stuff for free. In every class, you had a button to start the case with us. So that was an experiment, you know, giving a free course, a complete 14 class course, and that worked really well. We got a lot of clients out of that. And of course, many of these people cannot even hire because they are outside the US. They're just thinking about asylum, but they are in Guatemala, you know, they didn't even hear. But still, it's valuable for them. And then what happens, three months ago, four months ago, after the fact, after I launched the course, during consultations with potential clients, they said, "Oh, I watched your course while I was in Ecuador." So I started thinking about you. By the time this person reached the US, I wasn't top of their minds, you know. So you need a lot of points in the middle before someone, you know, being excited to hire you. And in my opinion, the thing that works better are live streaming. Live streams are really good because then you can show your personality more at the beginning. I had an advisor saying, "Who do you suppose five videos per day?" That's insane. I don't do that. But one out of five should be about your personality. I don't do that. I don't like it. I don't know how can anyone can care about it. But during the live stream, people ask me, "Where are you from? What's your soccer team?" And that's a chance of showing my personality because people are asking, not because I'm saying it, and that creates a bond and builds trust in some weird way, but it does because people look at you and see that you're a relatable person and some people connect with you and some will hire you. But yeah, having as many data points in the middle before having the call with the potential pipeline. When it comes to live streaming, do you do something where it's like a live show where you just take questions? Because I know Jim has a Q&A kind of a thing, and what's the frequency? What's the setup of the show and then what's the frequency? That's a great question. I made a lot of mistakes here. At first, I went live and I was just answering what people were asking. That's a mistake. I mean, you can do that, but you need to think not only about the live stream going on right now, but what will happen with the recording afterwards, example. I had a live stream, most of my live streams on YouTube had like, after the fact, like 2000 views. I was like, what's going on? It's not working. Then I switched and I did like a mini-class, of course, thumbnail of a topic title that's really important, that are combined. Then Hook, talking about the topic for 20 minutes, giving value while ignoring the questions, and then you answer something. And then that video got 350,000 views, that live stream. That was the first time. It was a few weeks ago, so I switched my strategy and it's working. Some don't work, but what I do right now is mini-class, ignore questions. Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone, and it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? 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Example, how to get a tourist visa, and I give you a lot of information about that, and then I answer questions about the tourist visa. So the person watching these two years after the live streaming on YouTube, they will be engaged about the topic that you promised with the thumbnail and the title. So that's my strategy now. But I mean, you can do a random live stream without any given topic, but that won't work in the future. That's my opinion. And then frequency, I think it's important if you can have, like people can anticipate that at a given time or day you will be there, I'm not good at that. I'm trying to be better at it. So in general, I go live like 7 p.m. Pacific for the Latin American community, and then at noon for Europe, Asia, and Africa, for the people outside the US in other time zones. So twice a day, that's what I'm trying to get better at, but it's a lot of work because I work as a lawyer at the same time. You mentioned earlier that you got into TikTok early, and you also said that it's not anywhere close to being too late to get into TikTok. For lawyers that are thinking about doing TikTok, what advice do you have, Julio? Dan is better than perfect, you don't need a million followers, have a strong hook. You don't have four seconds to grab people's attention. You probably have one second or a frame. So think about the first frame. What are they looking at? What's in the background? What are you saying? Are you using emojis? Are you using a title? What are the collars there? And then offer people something. Think a really quick lesson that I learned from an amazing book called, you probably guys read this, How to Make Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie's 1936 book. And he says, "I love strawberries with cream, that's what I like." And then I also like to go fishing in Maine during the summer. And when I'm building the bait, I don't put strawberries with cream there, which is what I like. I use worms, which is what the fish want, and I want to get fish. And so this simple idea is really powerful when you think about it, and when you apply it for many things in your life. For TikTok, I start my video saying, "Do you want a green card? Do you want a tourist visa? Do you want to win asylum? Did you know that blah, blah, blah?" Because I see a lot of people, lawyers, saying, "I'm Julio, the immigration lawyer." And blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares. Sorry. Sorry. Nobody does. You can say that after they are hooked to build authority, and they say, "Oh, this guy is a lawyer. Okay. He must know what he's talking about." That's important. But not at the beginning. So, hook them. And then once you hook people, it's easier to keep them watching the video. The hard part is to hook them. Once they are there, you need to deliver the value proposition. You need to. Otherwise, even if you trick people, you may trick people into watching the whole video with hook tricks, but then the platforms will learn that people didn't like the video. How they have infinite data points? On YouTube, for example, they do conduct surveys after the video. Why? Because you need to know what the platform wants. This applies to every platform. We all know these platforms want people to watch for as many hours as possible, so they can serve ads. Everyone talks about it. We all know that. But YouTube clearly stated that Todd Bupre, which is the discovery engineer, meaning the algorithm guy, he said, "YouTube also wants that people want to enjoy the video." Why? Because if you trick people into watching the whole video and they didn't like the experience, they will switch the platform. I said, "Yeah, I watched four hours and I learned nothing. I watched 30 seconds. I didn't learn what the hook promised, so I don't like this video. Even if they watch all of it, so you need to deliver the value proposition at the end of it." You need to give at the end of it. I wouldn't say that. I don't have an effect, but you need to end the video high as well, because if the people like, they will remember the end of it, and some of them take action, meaning follow you, share, like, comment, download your free guide. I would say that. For sure, for a video, do that, hook them, keep them, build authorities saying who you are, but once they're hooked, deliver what you promise, and then give them a call to action to keep them. Otherwise, they will keep on scrolling and forget you. Sorry if I talked too much. No, no, this is great. I've actually been taking notes. Yeah, it's fantastic. I've been taking a lot of notes, and I don't always do that. Usually, I try to stay engaged, but I'm actually taking a lot of notes on those. I do wonder, it sounds like you've put a ton of time into the video part of the process. How does that compare to your case process? Because you said you're actually practicing as a lawyer too, so you're not just doing the videos, you're doing both, and how much time do you dedicate to do that part as well? Because part of the problem is you could present really, really well, because sometimes there is a disconnect between the lawyer that looks great on the screen and then the performance when it comes to the case, and that disconnect is not great, because if you look great and then you don't perform well, that's a recipe for disaster. I do wonder how your process compares for your case process compared to the video process, because I'm very pressed. Yeah, so good question. The key there is delegation. That's the word. I do a lot of consoles per day plus video, and then I work some specific cases. But then I have a team of lawyers helping me, my business partners and other lawyers, and a great team. When I do a consultation, for example, sometimes I ask, "Are you going to go to court for me?" I don't do that part of the job, and I tell them, "No, but this other lawyer is my business partner." I started with him at law school, and he's doing this every day. That's the person that goes to court, but you have a team of lawyers looking at your case. It's not just me, I'm part of the team, but I have people better than me doing other parts of the job. That's great. Sometimes the consultation goes to another lawyer. Another lawyer starts a consultation, and I wouldn't have any problem with that. I was concerned about that, saying, "No, people look at me and they will expect me to be all over the case during the two years that it lasts, or once they build trust with other people that you know they are good, that's fine." I protect the brand because they trust me, and that's for me is the only thing I have at the end of the day, which is trust. If you lose that, you're done, and so it's really important who are your business partners, or if you're a solo, you're employees. I try to build the best team that I can and invest in that. Also for video, we have two video editors, in-house video editors, community managers. I'm not doing this alone, although I put a lot of effort into it, but I delegate also the video part, but yeah, it's really hard to find a balance. What worked for me was having obviously a schedule. I try to batch content as well for filming, so once I turn on the camera, I try to film as much as I can. I don't know, five TikTok videos, I script them before, and that gives me more time. Otherwise, you need to put the lightning, the camera, the microphone. It takes a lot of time every time you're filming. Also, I make it easy to film. I have a studio that is already set up, and it's really easy. I just switch on a few lights, and that's it, it's ready to go. But yeah, it's a challenge for me to try to balance my social media appearances with the practice, you know. It's a challenge. I haven't figured it out perfectly. Hulie, what's your favorite kind of content to create? Which platforms and which topics? My favorite platform is my least successful one, which is YouTube. I take it as a challenge, you know? It's hard to grow on YouTube, but I like it for many reasons. The evergreen content there could be watched for the years to come. TikTok, you explode and you die. So for example, 11 million views bloom, but then it dies. That video is gone. Nobody's going to watch it again. It's great. It's 11 million fox, you know, but then it dies. The evergreen content on YouTube, I have clients coming that watch a video that I filmed three years ago, two years ago. I had videos that exploded on YouTube one year after the fact, you know? So YouTube is the customer service is there, it's better. And I take it as a challenge, you know? That's what I like it the most. But obviously, TikTok is what has given me the most because we have more followers there. We're reaching 6 million in Spanish, there 1.8 soon in English on TikTok. And it's quite stable with the views that I have in general. Meta, it comes and goes. So Instagram and Facebook, sometimes I'm exploding and sometimes my views drop like crazy. I don't know why. It's the same content that I'm posting regarding to the part of the question, my favorite content. I really enjoy when I try to mix education, legal education with entertainment. I think that's that's that's explosive. If you can match those things, you can reach more people. At the end of the day, you need also to ask yourself, what are your goals? You want to have 1 million follow, 100,000 million followers, you know? What for? What's the reason behind that? And I think this is a message that is important for the lawyers that are listening to us. You don't need a million followers to be successful on social media. You don't need 100,000 followers to do that. You can start having a great practice with a few followers. Riches are in the niches or something like that is the phrase. I believe that. You can start opening the top of your funnel talking about pop, legal pop things like discussing the Amber Heard versus Johnny Depp case. That's fine. You will get a lot of views, but not necessarily a lot of clients and don't expect social media to pay you a lot of money in that revenue also because a lot of people think, oh, if you make it on YouTube, you make a lot of money. Yeah, but if you have millions and millions of views, if you have a couple of 100,000 views, you won't make a lot of money through AdSense. So the thing is try to make money through clients, you know, that's that's a powerful thing. I was listening to another podcast, not as successful as this one, but they were talking about a real estate company in Dallas that had 5,000 followers, subscribers on YouTube, not a lot, but they were making millions of money. Why? Because they were targeting real estate people with money in Dallas, you know, and that's really niche. And if you watch that, you feel like they're talking to you and therefore you're more likely to hire that company. So don't go crazy trying to have a lot of followers, that's a kind of vanity metric in a way. But depends on what you are, your goals, obviously. I think most lawyers try to expand their practice, you know, so that would be my advice. I love this. This is great. Lots of great, great information. I am, I'm sadly going to say we're going to wrap things up. We want to be respectful of your time, but anytime you want to come on, we're happy to have you because it's, you're great. The, I do want to plug you a little bit when it comes to your channels, TikTok, immigration TV. You also have this, I'm going to give the English versions, not the Spanish versions. It looks like it's immigration TV on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and then also YouTube. So check those out. A lot of great, just a lot of great content that you're putting on. So that's really awesome. If people want to reach out to you and have questions, how can they reach out to you? DMs on social media, I have, I look at them, not all of them, but I have a team reading that or my email is Julio@dgo.legal. You can write me an email and happy to, to engage. I was going to ask you about that if you actually check your DMs, if you have someone check them. So we've had guests on that they have someone check them, but that's, that's interesting that you check your own. I, I tried to do it because I'm sorry to attach them to interrupt, I think it's really important to understand the worms of the fish, you know, what, what your audience wants. And so I read comments all the time. I read comments all the time because you get ideas and inspiration, first, second, you get the reaction, third, you understand your avatar, your avatar or your multiple avatars. And they're not only their demographics, but their psychographics. What do they aspire, what are the fears, concerns, and that therefore you can create and engage better in the future once you start reading comments. I think it's a mistake not to read them. It's part of my job. And I enjoy it. And people are really nice. So, and when there's a hater, I'll just block and move forward. Go for it. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not going to get the worms out of my head. I'm not the, like, it just, I think I like the way you put it when it comes like the strawberries and all that. That's their car name. I'm stealing his phrase, but I'm citing. I, I just don't, it's, it's been so long ago since I've read the book, I don't remember that part of it. I can check it out. Yeah. I thought about rereading that book for a long time. Maybe it's time to go do it, but all right, we are going to wrap things up. But before I do, I'd love to have you all in the Facebook group. So search maximum lawyer in face on Facebook. You'll find us there. You'll probably also see whenever you search maximum lawyer, you'll see the guild. So you want more information about that, go to maxlawgill.com. And I guarantee you got something from this episode. I guarantee it. So if you did, we'd love it if you gave us a five star review, it helps us get the word out to lawyers all over the world so they can improve their firms. Jimmy, what is your heck of the week? Julio, this was great. Thanks so much for being with us. I really appreciate it. Lots of good guidance for all of us. My book or my hack of the week is a book Tyson's tired of me recommending books all the time. But this one's a good one. It was recommended by our friend Victoria Collier. It's called start scale exit repeat. It's a good primer on how to build something that would allow you to sell it. So other than build to sell, which I think is the best book on it, I think this one's right up there. Listen, anytime you want to recommend Victoria, I think that that's great. Is it her book? No. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Somebody started like 27 different companies. Gotcha. Okay. Very good. Yeah. Victoria Collier. It's fantastic too. So very good. All right. Well, Julio, we always ask our guests to give a tip or a hack of the week. She got for us. I'm going to quote Maria Callas, the famous legendary opera singer. She said, people will remember especially how you enter the stage and how you leave it. I think this applies for social media, for sales, for negotiation, how you start the hook that we spoke about it, but also how you leave them at the end of it. So think about that while you're trying to talk to a potential client when you create a video or you're negotiating with something. And then the last impression is the last impression. It's really important how you finish that. But to finish, you need to start somehow. So both things are really important. Nobody's talking, everyone's talking about the hook. I want to also focus at the end of the video or the conversation. Love it. That's great stuff. Well, Jim, I was giving you a crap for a recommend another book, but I have to recommend the one that I don't think I've recommended before. He was one that our really good buddy, David Haskins, had recommended. He had presented to our firm about a month and a half ago and it was about, it was some marketing stuff. Some of it was networking, but a lot of it was getting your story out there. And he recommended a book called Story Wars and it's a really good book and I think it's good. I think it's fitting for this topic because we are sort of developing a story whenever we're recording online and all the content that we put out, we are developing the story. And it does help you kind of rethink and reframe the way you want to tell your story. And they give examples from politics, they give examples from business. So I do find it really interesting. And if you've not read or listened to that book, it's an easy read. So I highly recommend it. Story Wars. Julio, thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I took a bunch of notes. I think it was great talking to you too. You got a lot of great energy. I mentioned that a few times, but it is a nice time to be able to have a really good energy because it's a nice little flow to the show. But thanks for taking the time to come on and sharing your expertise. Really appreciate it. No, the contrary. It's an honor for me, guys. Thank you so much. I enjoyed the conversation and hopefully your audience will learn at least one thing from out of this. Hopefully they do. Awesome. Thanks Julio. See you buddy. Thanks for listening to the Maximum Lawyer Blogger. To stay in contact with your host and to access more content, go to maximumlawyer.com. Have a great week and catch you next time. Hey, before you go, stick with me for just a minute because I have a discount that is exclusive to Maximum Lawyer Podcast listeners only. I want to make sure you know about it. As you all know, it is absolutely crucial to stay on top of calls with clients, with court staff, with judges. I even had a client the other day say that the provider was calling him saying that they have been trying to get ahold of us and they had left us a couple voicemails. 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