Showdown
Showdown Episode 22 3-19-24
(gentle guitar music) - Welcome to Showdown. I'm Mark Kason, and today is Tuesday, March 19th. And I have with me a very good friend, representative, Yolanda Fountain Henderson. Yolanda, how are you? - I'm doing great, Mark, how are you? - I am doing terrific, and I had a nice opportunity to talk to you earlier today, and I know you're excited about the work that you're doing, which you've been out serving the community for a long time. - A long time. - Yes, you have. And with distinction, for sure. - Yes. - Yes. - So tell me, you know, when you decided to run for the Missouri legislature, how did you feel when you thought about, how many Republicans there are in there? - Well, I know we have 163 legislators, period, in majority, or Republicans. I look at, eventually it will flip again. Don't know when, but it will flip again. That's why it's so important for people to get registered to vote. So we can flip them seats. Now, some seats were flipped. They were Republican seats, and then some flipped to Democrat. - Yeah, and I happen to agree with you completely. I mean, I think that things will change. And, you know, a lot of people worry because they believe that Donald Trump has some kind of a grip on America. But the fact is, you know, he's got a grip on our imagination, but not on our reality because actually they always keep losing. I totally agree with you. Some people say, "Oh, Trump gonna get it this time." And I said, "I don't think so. I really don't think so." When you thought he was gonna get it, he didn't get it. I mean, when I look at the situation that happened in Washington, that was her hurting thing. We talk about Trump in that, but what about the ones that passed away? Like the guards, the different. I mean, one man, he saw his wife get killed right there in front of, you know, right there in the window. So, I don't think so. I really, I mean, I have someone, you know, the mayor of Jenny's, he said, "Oh, Trump's gonna get it." I said, "I don't think so. I really don't think so." - No, people said that. - Yo, people, listen, I've got relatives who are against him, but say, "Oh, he's gonna win." They think he is, they're, in fact, it's because they're afraid. And because he does, he has captured people's imaginations, but in a very sick and dark sense. - Did you hear what he said the other day? - I hear every word. - About worse, man, it's gonna be bloodshed. - Yeah. - If he doesn't win. Well, and of course, the moment he says it, he denies it. You know. - Exactly. I was listening to the view. And they said, "Well, he didn't mean it this way. He meant it. Well, he was talking about the car industry and blah, blah, blah." No, I took it, like he said, because it was bloodshed the first time when people lost their lives. - Yeah. And also, anybody that listens to the actual language, which I realize doesn't count. But he said this whole thing about blood, or blood, a bloodbath in the auto industry. But then he went on to say, "And that's just the least of it because it's coming in America." So he specifically extended it beyond the automobile industry. But then he turned around and shifted at the other direction when his people, I guess, said, "Hey, Donald, they're coming after us." But you know, it's not like he's worried because he really thinks that he can escape anything. And he really feels that he can bring it all the way down to your level, that he can control all the way to the state legislatures, but he thinks he can, but he's losing in those battles. I mean, all over the country, he's losing. And one of the reasons he's losing, and you can talk to this, is this whole problem with women's health care. - Yes, women should have their right to choose what they do with their own body. - Yeah, but I didn't even say that. Forget that for a minute. - Yeah, leave that out. How about this? How about if you go to a doctor with a pregnancy that is failing, you know, you're starting to bleed. And the doctor says, you know, this is coming apart at the seams. You're in trouble. Okay, doctor, what are you gonna do? I can't do anything. Somebody will think it's an abortion. That is what the problem is all over the country. - Yes. - And women aren't happy, I would say. And in fact, I think we're gonna see increasingly, which we've already seen some of it, but increasingly we're gonna see seats like you're talking about flipped to the Democrats because women don't wanna deal with this, they wanna live. They do, they do. And like I said, I have saw one particular seat. She flipped and she says she is the very first African-American that ever served in this seat. And she repeats it constantly and if that's why it is so important, I'm going right back, important that people vote, we can make a difference. I look at Trump and then I just cut it off 'cause I don't wanna hear anymore. Then I look at Joe Biden. And like I said, everyone's keep on Trump. I see signs out here. When I go to Jefferson City, I see this one particular sign say Joe Biden, I mean, excuse me, whatever, to Biden Trump 2024. But I'm out here rallyinging. I will be out here on the front line trying to make sure that Trump does not get it at all. 'Cause we're looking at if he does get in, what's he gonna do? What is he going to do? - Well, he's already told everybody everything that he wants to do and it's so horrific that the only thing you can compare it to is the person who he has apparently taken on as some kind of an idol or mentor or something. And to say the name is almost unbelievable in 2024 but the name is, of course, Adolf Hitler. I mean, listen, when John Kelly tells you that this man has been telling him, the chief of staff, I think Hitler did a great job. Then what are we talking about? - I think something is wrong with the brain upstairs. - Yeah, I do doubt. - But a lot of people, like you said, is this imaginary person, they just live, they breed Trump, Trump, Trump. I don't get it. But I know I would not be voting for Trump, period. - Because of what his beliefs are. - Well, no question about that. And he was on TV for 10 years, which gave him enormous power. It's just like, a lot of people thought Robert Young was a great doctor. I mean, Marcus Welby was an actor. You know? - Marcus Welby Kennedy's. - Marcus Welby Kennedy. - Yeah, you gotta get over this television thing. It'll lead you to believe things that are completely imaginary. And when they act like, oh well, Trump is a genius business person. Yeah, he's a genius liar. That, he's very good at that. And here we are on March 19th, listening to the news where they're explaining, which I know a lot of people don't want to hear and don't believe that the man does not have $500 million. They, he needs it in six days, but he hasn't got it. - Yes, he does. My money, my money, he needs that money. - This guy does, this guy is so bad. And the problem is, like I say, it comes all the way down to where you all are in the state capitals, all 50 state capitals where you've got people who have been elected who really take this nonsense seriously. - I do. - You know, so, you know, I mean, the only thing is to do what you say. Flip these seats. - Flip, and that's what we're, I mean matter of fact, you know, I'm on a group chat with us and they're keeping us on tab on, we need to get more people registered. We get to need people to sign up for these elections. So, and we're out here, you know, like some of my legislators are about to turn out. They got people coming right behind them that they're endorsing. And that's great. At least we're not leaving that seat open for whoever. So we're fighting, we're fighting, you know, real hard up in this legislator. - Yeah, you know, it's sort of interesting here in the second congressional district, in the last few days, it was announced, you know, that Ray Hartman is going to run against Dan Wagner. - Yeah, I heard that. - Yeah, and the thing is that left unchallenged, certainly Wagner, you know, walks right back in again, but I wouldn't be so sure that she can take a challenge from a very seasoned political person, never elected before, but forget that, Ray knows how to talk, Ray knows how to make points, Ray knows how to get on the air and get in, when I say get on the air, he can get on if you ask him on, but he also knows how to get on, he can find ways to get himself injected into the discussion in a way that normally it would be an incumbent. So I think Ann Wagner has got herself a challenge, and again, the women's issue is going to continue to be at every level, whether it's the congressional races or all the way into the state legislature, there are women who wanna live. - Yes, and we do talk about that. I mean, we have majority women in the judges. So women are stepping up now, because we don't have that many women, and we're pushing for more women. I don't know much about Ms. Wagner, and I heard that, I mean, it's gonna be a lot of challenges during the 2024 election year. - Absolutely, now this is gonna be, this is gonna be a great election to sit down and sift through the numbers, and as you know, I teach at Cardinal Ritter, college prep, okay, so I've got, you know, seniors and sophomores, actually, and my seniors are my government class, but we talk about everything in all the classes, and I can tell you that come next November to sit down with those young people and really sift through the numbers and see what those numbers tell us about what's happening in America. That is a phenomenal opportunity for our schools. - Do you, do they play like they're voting? Do you do the mock voting there? - You know, we haven't done it, and I've done it at other places, but I can tell you this, we have so many people, elected officials, who come into the classrooms and talk to the students directly about real issues, and we really get into these things in a very serious way, and not the least of which is obviously the black history issue in 2024, which none of us would have believed. You know, 20 years ago, if you'd have said that schools are gonna try to block teaching black history, we'd have said, look, yeah, there are bad things in this country, but they're not that crazy. But actually, they are that crazy. - Holocaust. - Look, interesting that you say that, because first of all, we just finished World War II in my sophomore world history class, and we wrote about how you feel about the connection between the Jewish Holocaust and the black Holocaust. And it's sort of interesting too, there's a great professor, brand new, at Washington University, his name is Temba, and he came from South Africa, young guy, 33 years old, and that's his work. His research is connecting the black and Jewish Holocaust, and so he's gonna come up and talk with the kids about it, and look, these are things that all young people should be talking about. But if you're out in St. Charles, if it's Francis Howe, if you're out in Wensville, they don't wanna hear that, because they say some young white kid might feel uncomfortable. I mean, I'm sorry, maybe you need to feel uncomfortable in America. - Yeah, when it comes to that, you know, we're teaching it, 'cause I had one class I walked in on, and I go, okay, I just, you know, walked out, but I'm definitely still against, we should be talking about our black history. I'm still keen on that. - Sure. - Like on the month of February, we all, most of the legislators, we all, most of the legislators, we all had a set up that we recognize one person every day, and we were recognized on the floor. So I talked about homogee Phillips. So I told them, and then at the end, I let them know my mother was born at homogee Phillips. I was born at homogee Phillips, and I told a history, and a lot of them stood up and they watched me, and they said, I cannot believe what I heard. I didn't know this. I didn't know this. I didn't know this. I didn't know this, but we need to be talking about stuff that can affect us, 'cause I told them right now, they're fighting, trying to get the name, you know, taking off the one, the, I guess, the make believe one on Jefferson. I want to keep it over here where I was born at. - Well, I'll tell you, I think you're gonna like when I tell you this, but the first part of the show tonight, I've got you on, the second part of the show tonight, I have on a man named Justin Joyce, who is one of the top scholars in the entire world having to do with James Baldwin. And he's gonna talk about everything he knows, which actually if he did that, we'd be here for a month. The guy is really terrific. He writes for and he runs something called the James Baldwin Review. And this is really internationally read. And all this comes out of Washington University. And so, you know, we're gonna talk about that. James Baldwin with him. And in addition to that, the kids will get a chance to watch tomorrow and the next day here on the feed, on the video feed that I've got. Although he and others are perfectly willing and will come into the classroom and talk to the kids as well. So, you know, out in St. Charles and Wentzville and beyond, you know, out in the middle of the state, which sometimes we call Alabama, there's no question that they're trying to do everything they can to depress black history, but in some parts of Missouri, we're in the real world. Yes, yes, we are, especially with my school being Madonna African American. The Jenny School District. Sure. The Riverview, I represent Riverview, Normandy and Jennings. Those are the schools that's in my district. I try to attend, I attend a lot of Jennings. I'm starting to attend Riverview since I'm over it. And also I got to, you know, put my majority, it's another legislator that has majority Normandy, but I want to at least show my face in the book. Sure, you bet. No, I have every confidence that you would be there. And, you know, I have to say at some point, I'd love for you to drop by and talk to our kids as well. I will love to because, you know, I have this Unity Community Resource Fair coming up on tomorrow. And it's not just for my area, it's for to help people. That's what I'm about. That's why I'm this legislator today, is to assist and help people. And it's coming up at the Gary Gore Community Center. This Gary Gore Community Center is a area in Jennings that, you know, the Jenny School District owns. Sure. So we have different things that goes on. We even have our board meetings there because our board meetings have gotten too big to, you know, to hold our parents. So we moved it over. We have every day, I mean, every meeting per month, we have a war ceremony for the teacher. I mean, the student of the month for all of our different schools who be, and we have also a attendance award. With school, they compete, trying to get the students there one time. So it's going to be at this particular location from 10 to two. And it's a two, five, four, five, Doorwood Avenue in Jennings, Missouri. So two, two, five, four, five. Doorwood, D-O-R-W-O-D. Okay. And in this end, six, three, one, three, six. I am trying to get some signs out there. So no one would get lost so they can direct it. It's also a polling site. So-- Well, GPS should get anybody there, so. Yes, yes. Two, five, four, five, Doorwood. Well, Yolanda, I thank you so much. And like I say, we've got, you know-- We've got work to do. We've got to, yeah. Well, we have work to do. We are, we're going to talk about that. I mean, we're, like I said, I certainly want to get you, out and meet with some of our students. And, you know, it might even be interesting to have you come out and even maybe hook up some of the students on Zoom from Jennings and let the students talk while you're there. You know what, that's a great idea. Yeah, I've got ideas. Okay, there we go. I believe in, you know, hearing from you, hearing from them so we can all work together. Absolutely. And like I say, you're going to be followed by James Baldwin, basically, so you can't beat that. Okay, so Yolanda Fountain Henderson, thank you so much. My good friend for being here tonight and we'll catch up again soon. And I thank you. Thank you for having me. You bet. All right. Okay, so in a moment, we'll be talking about James Baldwin. But first, just a little bit early here, we're going to catch up on some food. And the food is at Wentes. Wentes is in Chesterfield, 18,000 Chesterfield Airport Road and everything you can imagine. Smoked meats, wings, hamburgers, cheeseburgers, patty melts, which I love with the onions. They're great. And also baby back ribs, onion rings, pizza. You name it. The food is outstanding. The atmosphere is great. And of course, as I always say, Ben is there. He's the owner. And he would love to talk to you, guaranteed. Talks to everybody's a really terrific person. And he's got a great restaurant, him and his wife. And the food is terrific. It's great. That's Wentes, 18,000 Chesterfield Airport Road in Chesterfield Valley. Now, if you want jewelry, you go to 4506, Hampton in St. Louis. And I can tell you right now that Al and his son, AJ are there and ready to show you all the great things that they've got. And they have a ton of creatively put together new pieces of jewelry that they make. Then also they buy and sell jewelry and coins. Absolutely without a question. Jules on Hampton is just a great jewelry store. Again, with the owner present, and that always really helps those businesses along. And I'll tell you Al has a great business. Jules on Hampton, 4506, Hampton. Now, the suits and ties are what I just happen to love. I just like to dress up. And I do all the time. And here I am with my, I guess they call this charcoal, maybe something like that. And the rest of this, I believe is blue with a little white and who knows what else is in there. You know, I'm colorblind, but I can tell you right now, I may be colorblind, but the people at St. Louis Suit Company, they can tell me all the time what to wear. They match it up for me and make sure that I'm wearing the right thing and I love it. The St. Louis Suit Company is on the corner of Forsyth and Central that's in Clayton. They have been there for 29 years. Jay and Nick are there all the time, ready to serve you, ready to help you pick out clothing for weddings. I can tell you right now they do a lot of weddings. So go to the St. Louis Suit Company, corner of Forsyth and Central and believe me, you will love the St. Louis Suit Company. And don't forget again, these ties are $5. The same exact tie, I'm telling you right now, if you bought it from Donald Trump, it would cost you $50 and then you'd put it on your neck and it would choke you. So forget that, just spend $5 and it all works out fine, you don't have to be choked. That St. Louis Suit Company, Forsyth and Central in Clayton. Okay, before we're joined here by Justin Joyce, which should happen any moment, let me mention a couple of things today that I thought were amazing. It's the one thing about Donald Trump that's actually good. He helps us to visualize the craziest things that could ever happen in the world, which could help you to avoid those things. For example, Donald says that if you don't vote for Trump, you're a bad Jew, not so happens, I'm Jewish. So I guess I'm a really bad one because I wouldn't have voted for him. I don't know, ever, there's nothing you could have done. I mean, you could torture me, I wouldn't do it. So I guess I'm a very, very bad Jew. But in all seriousness, to even say things like this, it's so sick, it's so demeaning, but it's so Donald and that's what he does. So, you know, if you're Jewish out there, just remember Donald says, if you don't vote for him, you're a bad Jew. Now I have to tell you, he doesn't know what a Jewish person is. I know he's got Jared and all that business. Honestly, he doesn't know. If you wrote it down for him, he wouldn't know because look, we know he doesn't read, except one thing according to his wife, his ex-wife, he does, before he goes to sleep, he reads, believe it or not, the speeches of Adolf Hitler. And with that having been said, I am joined now by a very esteemed guest and he's gonna be talking about a real writer, a real great American. And that's James Baldwin. Justin Joyce, how are you? - I'm great Mark, how are you? - I am terrific and it was so nice to meet you at the event that we had at WashU. And I just really value this opportunity to speak to a real scholar and to really look at some important ideas that sometimes we don't think about and especially in 2024, when a lot of schools are talking about banning black history and black literature, I guess this is a good time to be talking to a great scholar of James Baldwin. - Well, I appreciate the opportunity. I mean, certainly there are others who probably could speak better about Baldwin's work than I, but I'll give it a shot, I'll do my best. - Okay. - Yeah, well first thing, tell us about the James Baldwin review, tell us about that. - Sure, so I'm one of the founding editors for the journal and I'm the current managing editor. So James Baldwin review is an open access academic publication, comes out once a year and it's a collection of scholarly criticism, journalistic pieces, interviews. We have done some creative nonfiction and we feature different artwork on the cover every year. As I said, it's open access. So it's a publishing partnership between Washington University and St. Louis and Manchester University Press. And it's free to everybody all around the world. As you can read it online, there's no paywalls, there's no subscription. And we also do a print version, there's a very small print run. So if you want to buy it and hold it in your hand and not read it online, you can do that as well. So we are just now in earnest putting together our 10th anniversary volume. So we've happily coincided, our 10th anniversary is the same year as the Baldwin Centennial, because Baldwin was born in 1924. So everybody's putting on events and trying to celebrate the year he would have turned on. - Right, obviously one of the great authors in American history and a lot of people would say, yeah, black author and certainly he was, but just one of the all-time great authors, period. And he addressed issues that are so important in our time, which unfortunately, we're not just looking back in the past and saying it used to be that way. Here we are. - To sort of jump off of that, Mark, and one thing I would say is it's a weird position to be in professionally, to be working on an author whose work is so painfully relevant, but who also wrote really stridently about all the social changes that we needed to make and all the personal changes and introspection and reflection and progress that needed to happen in America. And he's so relevant today because so many of those things haven't happened. Now I wanna be very clear that a lot has been achieved and a lot has changed since Baldwin first started writing. Right, I mean, his first published writings are in the early 50s, late 40s, early 50s. And so, I mean, we're talking, there's a lot of difference, but the fact that he's still relevant today, I mean, I sort of joke with colleagues that it would be nicer for the world if we had less people interested in James Baldwin for his political relevance. If that makes any sense. Oh, it makes a lot of sense. In fact, tell me when you talk to college students about Baldwin, I'm sure you do, what does their attitude seem to be? Do they love reading him? It's a mixture of frustration that some of the things they're finding in Baldwin, they don't know about, right? They don't know about a past that isn't, I guess I want to, I have too many negatives there, Mark. If you don't mind, I'll start over and say it. You know, Baldwin is not an easy writer to read. He's challenging on a personal level and he's also challenging on the page. He has very long sentences. There's a very complex sentence structure. So sometimes that challenge combined with the frustration of not knowing things from the recent past, a lot of people just don't want to deal with Baldwin in both senses of the word, right? And that's part of why we have Baldwin so readily available as sound bites and bits and snippets. I mean, Baldwin is imminently quotable on Instagram and all kinds of places because you can just take this one little nugget and there's no context. So the challenge is to fill out the context. What was happening when Baldwin said this? Yes, it matters, it resonates today, but why didn't it matter in 1976 or 1984 or 1963, right? And so for a lot of students and whether that student is college age or, you know, my age or older, there's a real challenge there to the historical perspective that Baldwin presents. And I also think that's what a lot of people end up loving about Baldwin. He's fiercely personal, but also relatable because he is able to look out at how his problems relate to everybody else's. Yeah, tell me about maybe some of the interesting people that you've come into contact with because of your work with Baldwin. Maybe people, for example, who might have known him or certainly people who worked on research related to him. Sure, yeah, so I mean, I've been able to go to, there was a number of conferences that were put together, almost at a steady every other year clip for a while. So I was able to go to France twice and meet scholars there. My other main partner besides Dwight A. McBride is also at Washington University in St. Louis. And so Dwight and I and our third partner Douglas Field is in Manchester in the UK. So to have that real international partnership that Transatlantic work is very exciting. And certainly there's different perspectives that people are bringing, but I mean, it's strange so much of the work that we do in literary criticism and working on an academic journal is akin to having a modern day pen pal, right? So I write an email and I ask for permission to use a photograph or to reprint a piece. And I end up having a very long relationship in conversation with people that I may never have met before. I can give an example from the most recent issue of the journal, Volume Nine, which came out in October of 2023. There is a piece there which is a reprint of a man who knew Baldwin personally and worked with Baldwin when Baldwin wrote a essay for Playboy magazine, right? So Walter Lowe was the editor's name at Playboy. And Walter Lowe was the one who brought Baldwin on this specific project. And that project became one of Baldwin's last books, which is The Evidence of Things Not Seen. It's about the Atlanta child murders. And so I ended up having a very long several months conversation through email. We once spoke on the phone with Walter Lowe. And then it was really, it was very gratifying. It was very interesting for him that people were still interested in this and it was interesting for me to learn about and from somebody who knew Baldwin personally, like picked him up at the airport, took him around Atlanta, that kind of thing. And there are members of the editorial board for the journal that knew Baldwin personally. Yeah, we could spend all day talking about the authorities, but that's one example that resonates recently. - Yeah, it seems like you take somebody that's so important like this in American history. And when young people who are studying this, you know, they probably ask the question, but what's so important about this? How's this man different than other people? How do you relate that to some of these young people? How do you help them to understand? - Well, it's a good question. And I think that's part of why the study of literature is so important for perspective, right? And Baldwin himself is one of his really quotable quotes, is you think your pain and your heartbreak are unprecedented in the history of the world. And then you read. Right, so that perspective, that historical lens that Baldwin provides. So part of the answer directly to your question, Mark, is you tell young people, look, it makes sense to you today that of course, we have people who are talking about LGBTQ rights. Of course, we have people that are talking about trans rights. We have all kinds of different ways that people are advocating and writing and sharing about their perspectives. But when Baldwin wrote his second novel, Giovanni's Room, which is a homosexual story, when he wrote this in the early '50s, this was unprecedented. This was absolutely groundbreaking literary work, right? So to think about that, I don't wanna use the term class ceiling exactly 'cause that has a different meaning, right? But to be able to break a certain barrier and to have the historical perspective of that, I mean, just this award cycle, right? - Rustin, the movie that came out about Bayard Rustin. - Right. - Jamie Baldwin was walking literally physically boots on the ground in movement and marches in the South, in the US, in the '60s, where Bayard Rustin was. And both of them were sidelined and silenced because of their sexuality. That's something that today, we're talking a whole lot more about, but in Baldwin's time, he was one of a few, very fiercely brave individuals who was able to say, "This is all of my complexity. "This is everything I'm bringing to the table." - Do you think that James Baldwin would have been surprised that the sexuality issue has opened up so dramatically, and yet, the race issue in a lot of ways has remained so shut down? - That's a good question. I'm trying not to give the scholarly answer here, Mark, which is a dumb version of, hmm, that's interesting. Tell me more about what I'm talking about. - Yeah, right. I think there's a lot that Baldwin would be surprised about. I mean, quite honestly, and he always thought and wrote, I mean, as far as I can tell, I never do the man, right? - Right, right. - He always thought and wrote that, you know, race and sexuality were entwined. They were combined in the American imagination in the American psyche. And so to have progress on one side and not as recognizable progress in terms of equality on the other side, I think would be surprising to have. I think Baldwin would be the first one to point to the difference between, you know, equality before the law versus equality of treatment and equality of outcomes. Baldwin was very quick to make those kinds of distinctions that are super important in our current political movement where we're having people turn things around in terms of what we mean when we talk about race and, you know, DEI programs and minority inclusion programs. They get twisted and turned around and Baldwin would be the first one to say, absolutely not. This is not what is meant here and how dare you, right? And that's, I think, one of the other things to go back to your earlier question that makes Baldwin's such a profound impact on people and especially young people is because he was fierce. He was eloquent and biting and not afraid to go on the attack. And that's certain we see less of that today. - Yeah. Do you think that he believed that being on the attack over time would work? Or do you think that there was some ultimate pessimism just because the racial problem has been so difficult in this country? - It's funny that you asked that. Well, funny only because I was thinking about this. - I read your mind, I read your mind, I knew. - It's funny that you ask because one of the things I was trying to find, right, while I was sitting here, I knew we were gonna talk and so I was sort of thumbing through some Baldwin stuff and there's, he gets asked this question, this very question, many, many times, especially later in his life, basically, why are you so bitter? Why are you so in despair? Why, and his answer is often some version of I'm not in despair, I'm enraged. I'm indignant, I'm furious. And that sort of semantic distinction was really important to him. And I think that that is, you know, it's also linked to, he will say you can't be in despair. Despair is something that you can't afford to have. You can't, how do you move on with that, right? And his quote is, how can you tell the children there is no hope? You have to be able to have hope, hope springs eternal. Each day is a new opportunity for change, right? And so part of that is even though Baldwin left the church at a young age, he was raised in a pedicotal, excuse me, pedicotal church upbringing. And there is certainly an issue of faith and perseverance in his, in his makeup, right? He couldn't afford despair. He wouldn't allow it. - So when you talk to young people, first I'm wondering, you know, there's a thing about historical memory, which unfortunately, and somebody like you is probably so well aware that it's so short in a lot of ways. And when people are gone, often they're gone. You know, I always ask about somebody like Walter Cronkite, and I'll actually have people say, oh, who's that? You know, so if they don't remember Walter Cronkite, you know, who do they remember? You know, so, you know, but tell me, what do you think in terms of historical memory, what do you think the situation is with Baldwin? I think he sort of has hung around more than a lot of other people, am I right? - I think you are right, and I think you're right for a combination of reasons, right? So part of it is that it needs to be said that there have been people working very hard to make that happen, right? - Okay. - So after, you know, so Baldwin dies in '87, and don't quote me on the date, but I think it's about 10 years later, that they come out with his collective work through the Library of America, which was put together and edited, Toni Morrison has the editorial credit. And so there are people actively working to make sure that Baldwin was not forgotten. And right around the same time, my colleague and co-editor, Dwight McBride, came out with an edited collection called James Baldwin Now, which was adamantly trying to make sure that people did not forget about the impact Baldwin had, and to really look again at sexuality in Baldwin's work that had been sort of pushed aside a little bit in his later, in the criticism of his later works, right? So, and there are legions of other scholars and colleagues that if I start naming them all, then I'll get even more trouble for the ones I didn't name. - Right. - So there's been active work. A lot of people are trying to make sure this happens. The second part of the answer is that, you know, Baldwin was famous. I mean, famous at a time when fame and celebrity was really undergoing an interesting arc in American history, right? He was on television a lot and photographed a lot, right? He was, you know, Time Magazine cover. And for that to happen in the 20th century, I mean, he was famous, right? And he was also famous in a way for his personality. And this is almost the last generation of an individual who could be that famous simply as a writer, as a novelist, as a playwright, as an essayist, right? And so those resonate with our current notions of fame and celebrity, right? In an age of internet celebrities and influencers and social media stars, somebody who was recognizable just for their face alone. There's a corollary there and Baldwin represents an interesting arc of that historical transition. And I'm sure he would have found it interesting that the documentary showed up in 2016, I am not your Negro. And here, you know, another chance for people in, you know, 30 years after his death to take a look at him and think about him and let, you know, some of his ideas resonate with viewers, hopefully. I have to say, you know, when I saw Dick Cavitt interviewing Jane Baldwin and Cavitt must have been 10 years old at the time, it's sort of amazing. - Yeah, I mean, look, I have a lot of respect for Raul Peck and it's a really moving film. But it needs to be said that every time anybody recuperates Baldwin, there's always a certain package of Baldwin that is presented, right? And in Peck's documentary film, Baldwin's sexuality is almost completely non-existent. There's very little discussion of it. There's actually only one line. And it's not even by Baldwin or a character. It's in a discussion of Baldwin's FBI file. It's just a one throw away thing, right? So there's still very much a coordinating off and policing of Baldwin as a full human being. And I mean, that's one of the things that has been a problem in African American literature and African American studies for a long time is dealing with that full complexity. That's one of the things that Baldwin himself was really quite strident about. And that's part of why he refused to identify as other than a writer if he got his choice. And then, of course, he has to be a black writer. And then, of course, he has to be a black gay writer. But it was always in that order, right? He did not want to be identified. He eschewed all the labels he could. But that's still how he gets packaged today. So in some ways, I think that might be the irony that perhaps would sting most to go back to your earlier question about sexuality or racial identification. - Okay, so he's still pigeonholed. - So one more time. Tell us about how people can read about the journal and about James Baldwin. - Sure, well, this is a good year to be interested in James Baldwin. There's a lot of things coming out. I know that Penguin is an earnest on his back catalog, right? So the publisher of Penguin, Random House, now they're all sort of combined together. They are doing things. I know that the Library of Congress has some plans in the works. I also know just last weekend, forgive me, Mark. I can find it for you. But it was either last weekend or the weekend before the New York Times did a feature on James Baldwin, which was written up by a novelist who used to go by the Twitter handle Son of Baldwin. And so there is just a moment where Baldwin's out and about in the sphere, in the spaces, right? In terms of James Baldwin review, luckily, the Google machine can help there, right? - Yeah, of course. - Second, James Baldwin review, and Google can take you to the link. It's hosted through Manchester University Press. And like I said, it is free to all. We're fiercely proud of the fact that we have readers accessing the site in over 150 countries all around the world. We couldn't do that with just print. We couldn't do that with subscription, right? So to be able to share it freely is really what we're about. And so yeah, James Baldwin review, you can find it through Google. You can also find links through Manchester University Press and the African and African-American Studies Department website at Washington University in St. Louis also has links. - Well, Dr. Justin Joyce, listen, thank you for your time and for your insights and for really helping us to understand a little bit about a really important person in American history. And it's just, it's so valuable and to have your time here like this is truly valuable. - Mark, it was a pleasure, really. I appreciate you taking the time and trying to highlight some of the important works in American letters and really it was my pleasure. - Okay, thanks again and I'll see you I'm sure at Washington University. - There you go, okay. - Thanks Mark. - You bet. Okay, so we still have about eight minutes to go and it's only Tuesday, but we get a lot of things today and I have to say that I met some great scholars at this dinner maybe about a month ago at WashU and there are a few others with some important areas of research that I wanna bring up here to talk a little bit and certainly I love them coming to talk to my kids at school and they really are generous when it comes to the time that they spend doing those things and you know, it's so unfortunate that there's so much out here when it comes to scholarship and learning and thinking and studying that there's just a ton out here. There's a giant world of history that can be explored in not just our country but certainly in our country and yet here we are dealing with an age of insanity that is so unfortunate and the only thing we can do is fight it. Just fight it and for those of you who think that fighting it gets absolutely nowhere and that these Trump people get away with everything maybe it would be worthwhile to think about today and maybe to turn on the news tonight and you may be able to watch Peter Navarro, a strong supporter of Donald Trump, a man who came up with this brilliant theory on how to overturn an election, how to take an American election that was won by Joe Biden and to try to turn it upside down and turn the victory over to another person. As if this were Russia or as if this were some other crazy place in the world where you can play those kind of games but no, if you look at Peter Navarro tonight and you'll see him on the news, if you want to, if not, you can go as Justin Joyce, go to the Google machine and just put in Peter Navarro and you'll be able to watch him take his first steps into the gray bar motel because that's where he belongs. He was subpoenaed. He was supposed to respond to the subpoena. He said, I don't have to. You know, Donald thinks he doesn't have to. Nobody thinks they have to on that side. They forgot about the law. They forgot about what this country is about. They forgot about democracy. So what do they end up with? Well, they end up with what Peter Navarro's got which is a trip to jail because that's where they belong when they break the law. When you break the law in this country, no matter how important you think you are, you go to jail. And believe me, Donald hasn't escaped all of this. These things take years, unfortunately, to run people through the courts because our courts, I say, unfortunately, but in a sense it's fortunate because our courts do want to protect people's rights. Now I admit that in the case of Donald, his rights have been very carefully protected in ways that others would not be, but it's necessary because otherwise, this guy's jumping up and down screaming that he's been had by the witch hunt and it's important that when we finally lock the prison door that we're able to say, pal, you got every opportunity to fight back against this. You said things that you shouldn't have been allowed to say. You threatened people. You threatened jurors. You threatened people in courtrooms that worked for judges. You threatened judges. You even ended up putting a hammer on Paul Pelosi's head and the violence and the, not just the physical violence, but the verbal violence has continued nonstop and there's only one way to get rid of it. And that's to use our democratic process and to show when we're using it that we're not kidding. Everybody gets their chance in a courtroom. And then when the jury says you're guilty, you got a problem. That's when it's over. That's when it's no longer an allegation. So, you know, when a judge says that this jury in the case of Eugene Carroll found that Donald Trump raped a woman, you can believe it, Donald Trump raped this woman and he won't stop talking about it. The first time he paid five million. The second time, 83 million. And he's out there screaming about it again about what a liar she is. And they're gonna drag him right back into a courtroom again. I can tell you, Eugene Carroll has no fear. She's got 88 million plus a few million dollars in interest. So it's 91 million dollars coming. She intends to use it for good for lots of things in America. But certainly, the whole idea here is that we all have to recognize that when people like Donald Trump are found to have done bad things in courtrooms when they're found to have defrauded the government, defrauded individuals, defrauded insurance companies and banks, they will pay a price. And you know, six days, we're gonna see the price. On Donald Trump, we're gonna see if he can come up with five hundred million dollars, which he tells us today after all these years about how wealthy he is, well, now we know the truth. This man's broke, can't come up with a pittance. 500 million dollars, he can't get it. Oh, last I heard he had it, he said he did, but suddenly he doesn't have it and he's begging. Please, please don't take my things. Don't take my toys, but you know what? Leticia James is no joke. She beat him in court and now if he doesn't come up with this five hundred million dollars in six days, she's coming after his toys. And that's not gonna be a pretty sight for him. Maybe for us and it may help to end some of the selection trouble, but we'll see. And we'll see more of you tomorrow, right here on Showdown, brought to you by Wendy's and Jewel, Jewel is on Hampton. Jewel's on Hampton, sorry about that. And of course, the St. Louis suit company. See you then tomorrow, good night. 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