Hey leaders, it's Kerry Newhoff. I'm on the road this week and we decided to do something to serve you as podcast listeners. A few months ago, I did a series on pastoring in a partisan age and with the election right around the corner, we are re-issuing those episodes. I really hope you enjoy. I hope it's helpful and I hope it's just in time as you lead your congregation and the people you care about through a very, very critical time. The art of leadership network. I've done this. I've literally said this most nuanced thing that I prepare for days and someone will come up with a conspiracy theory. It's too right, too left, whatever. And that draws me back to God. So if you're anxious about this season, what if God is allowing some of this fractiousness to continue to push the church back into a dependency on him, not into techniques and procedures that would protect us from pine. Welcome to the Kerry Newhoff Leadership Podcast. It's Kerry here and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Man, we got some fun today. Hey, we have got Mark Sayers coming up. This is part of our pastoring in a partisan age. For a little break in the clouds, do you know that it is our 10th anniversary coming up this month? That's right. 10 years ago, this month, we started the podcast. I'm doing a giveaway. I'm doing a big green egg giveaway. You follow me on Instagram or other channels. You know, it's my favorite thing. I love grilling, smoking on my big green egg. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to give away one grand prize, an extra large big green egg. That is the correct one. Accessories and a special state subscription for you. We've got two runners up. You're going to get small mini max big green eggs. They're super cool for tailgating, etc. Open to US and Canadian residents only. So if you want to win my big green egg 10th anniversary prize pack, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening or watching and then make your entry at CNLP.live. That's just CNLP.live. Winners are going to be chosen on September 26. So dive in because we are celebrating this month together and thank you, the listener, for making this such an incredible decade. Today's episode is brought to you by the Art of Navigating Church Conflict. Hey, this month, I'm releasing a brand new course on September 23 called the Art of Navigating Church Conflict. If you want to mitigate criticism, unite your church, inspire people, join the waitlist for the course at artofchurchconflict.com. And today's episode is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. Whether it's organizing an event or supporting families in need, Convoy wants to find a way to reignite a love in your congregation for compassion ministry. Learn more and support their work at convoy.org/carrying. Well, we have got Mark Sayers back on the podcast. Every time I talk to Mark, I just want to talk to him more. I think we'll have him back again sooner rather than later. He is the lead pastor of Red Church in Melbourne, Australia. He's passionate about spiritual renewal and the future of the church. He has authored a number of books, including a non-anxious presence in the reappearing church. He lives in Melbourne or Melbourne. If you want to say it that way, come on Australia, did I get it right? And I got to tell you, like he has a unique perspective. I don't know anyone who thinks like him, who reads as widely and diversely as he does. And that's why I wanted him in on our past spring and a partisan age. We are going to look at the macro reasons why people are so upset. The rise of the culture wars. Why do we end up here? Conspiracy theories, cultural elites, and what God is doing when it seems you just can't win anymore. I think you're going to love this conversation. Hey, as we're wrapping up this podcast series, we aren't talking about conflict, but I want to share a few more details about something I hinted at a few weeks back. On September 23rd, I am releasing a brand new course called the Art of Navigating Church Conflict. It is my brand new comprehensive training where you will learn proven framework strategies and skills to unite, inspire, and empower your church to navigate conflict and to mitigate criticism. Using the material, you will get like instant relief from the day-to-day whirlwind of dealing with people that aren't on the same page. You'll have case-by-case scenarios of how to approach tricky situations. And you'll do it with confidence because the course comes with word-for-word scripts, strategies, templates, and guides that simply work. I draw from the best experts and my own experience, and it comes with dozens of step-by-step guides that you and your team can use for all of the uncomfortable situations you face. If you're on my email list, you'll be the very first to know about when registration opens, and we're offering some bonuses as well, so be sure to check your inbox. And if you aren't already on my email list, join the wait list for the course at artofchurchconflict.com. That's artofchurchconflict.com. So Convoy of Hope wants to help the church embody the compassionate heart of Jesus. People are hurting, and over and over again, Convoy has watched God position his church in the middle of chaos, disaster, and hardship to point people back to him. So Convoy resources and mobilizes congregations of every size to meet the needs of their communities. Whether it's organizing an event or supporting families in need, Convoy wants to find a way to reignite the compassionate love of God in your congregation for ministry. So learn more and be part of their work by going to convoy.org/carry. That's convoy.org/carry. And now my conversation with Mark Sayers. Mark, so good to have you back on the podcast, and thanks for joining us in this series. Yeah, so excited to be training again. Well, we've had some great conversations, and I want to start here because you have such a good historic perspective and global perspective in terms of tribalization and division. What is different today than say in the 1990s or even 20 years ago? Well, I think it's a number of things coming together at once is what is driving this. So one thing I would say is that we had 2008 at a global financial crisis. And a lot of today's problems can be really traced back to that and the responses to that. And that you saw that affect a lot of working people around the world. It really affected the economic system. And a lot of the solutions to that from printing money and going to debt are affecting people today. And I think that's the background story that a lot of people don't talk about. Obviously, COVID and the economic response to COVID was also something which repeated those patterns of printing money, and we'll see things like inflation and so on. And there's an increasing sense that people are struggling to get ahead economically. There's a growing divide between those at the very top. And even since 2020, we've seen just that top 1% grow financially. So anytime you have economic disparity, it just pours fuel on other social disconnection. I think that's one of the background stories that people are talking about. And you can see that everywhere from Mungua Desch to Boston. The second thing is that we live in a time of, in our entire way, we process information has changed through social media. And social media has brought the world a lot closer. So events that we previously had distance from such as you'd read the newspaper and read about a flashpoint. It's now on our phones all the time. And it doesn't just prevent present text. It presents faces and voices and emotions. And sadly, one of the things that travels very fast on social media is negative emotions, anger, frustration. So you put those two things to get a growing sense of inequality. And I said the third thing is too that we, Marshall McLuhan, a great Canadian, talked about a global village, which sounds very sort of lovely. But actual his interpretation of that is, villages can be quite tribal places. They can be violet places and very loud places. And I think we're seeing that too, as the world is becoming connected, we're also becoming disconnected, as people find identity and meaning in tribal subgroups. And then lastly, I just would say too, I think we're going through a political crisis that there is a number of countries around the world that if you had a scale of their political health and 10 was very healthy, people have dropped down several numbers. And particularly that that's true in some Western countries, which are not used to that. And all of this is driving a very tribalized environment. Yeah, you know, the economics hasn't really come up on the series so far. So I'd like to dive into that, right? Because if I remember the terminology correctly in 2008, we called it quantitative easing, right? We'll just print a whole bunch of money, get some prosperity. You saw probably a V2 of that during COVID, where I know in Canada, the government just, and in America too, just printed boatloads of money to get people through the crisis, stock market rebounded. You know, you kind of look at that and go, well, isn't that a good thing? Like, isn't that what happened during the Depression? I mean, the argument is that if Roosevelt hadn't come along in the Depression, how would we have pulled out of it? And you could also argue the war solved the Depression, Second World War. So in some circles, that scene is helped for the little guy, but the little guy ends up being very frustrated at the end. If I understand you correctly, can you explain that a little bit more? Yeah. So one of the things that has happened in the last sort of 10 years or so has been a real struggle for economies to become more productive. So my understanding of the Canadian economy is that it's struggled to produce and grow during the last nine years. And this has happened across the world. And then COVID, a lot of people forget, because we're so focused on the medical side of COVID is it created one of the biggest economic shocks since the Great Depression. We didn't feel that necessary because you're right. We just had a quantitative easing, printing money. But what that has happened, it's almost like we use that solution back in 2008. You can't keep using that solution because you have a flow and effective inflation. So a lot of cost of living concerns in the last while have been around inflation. So people who might be less engaged in a moment of cultural polarization, all of a sudden when they have that burger costs more money, when they can't pay their mortgage payments on their home, everything starts to become more inflamed. And I think you're right to bring out the Great Depression. There's a lot of parallels to what happened in the '30s where you saw real polarization across the world, the far left far right rose. And there's another parallel in the 1970s where the world had inflation, low growth, and an oil shock. And again too, I just have read several histories of the '70s lately. And the parallels are amazing to what's happening now. So I think that economic background is what a lot of people don't talk about when it comes to cultural, sort of polarization and tension. But I think it's one of the big stories. A lot of people feel left behind. And then that drives looking for answers, ideologies, which can explain that story. You know, when you look at the density of podcast listeners to this show, top five cities are all American, but you have LA, Chicago, New York, I think Atlanta and Dallas are the top five consistently for listeners of this show. With a couple of exceptions, housing is all but unattainable and unaffordable in those big cities. You think about even in Melbourne, where you are, you know, or near Toronto, where I'm located, housing has just gone bananas. And when you think about that, you know, you're pastoring Red Church. A lot of listeners here are engaged in their local church. You're dealing with a significant now percentage of the population that just can't even meet their bills anymore. It's like rent has gone through the roof. I don't know there'll ever be able to afford a house. I don't know whether I can keep our house. Cars are crazy in terms of expense. And as you say, everybody wants a tip. You know, my wife and I, we went out and we just had burritos, like to go burritos. And we took them to have, you know, the waterfront and just relax. It was $46 with tax and tip for two burritos. And I'm like, what plan am I living on? Like this is crazy. And so, you know, you think about that. How does that impact you as a pastor, as a local leader, when your people are under that much financial stress? Well, it definitely changes locality. You know, the idea of that people are going to go through their life journey from, you know, perhaps being a young family to a retiree and do all that in one community. Now, we've already seen that change happening in people moving around a lot more. But yeah, like Melbourne's housing price is very similar to, you know, what's happened around the world. It's just incredibly unaffordable. And we've seen that, you know, get people come along, you connect, they love your church, and they have to leave, not because of a theological issue, whatever. They just cannot afford to live in the area. And I'd also say too, it's one interesting thing that pastors, I think, need to get their heads around is the fact that there's an inevitable conservative force about buying a home that changes people. And this has been talked about a lot in politics. You, in a sense, have something to conserve, to work towards, you know, but when you don't have that, people become a lot more mobile. There's a greater discouragement about the future. So I see a lot of hopelessness passed orally that, well, we can never get ahead. Systems wreaked against us. You know, what are we meant to do? So as a whole new layer, that perhaps wasn't there in the past when housing was more affordable, particularly amongst the young. When you think about the culture wars, Christians seem to have really gotten caught up in the culture wars in our lifetime. I don't know whether it was always so. You can make an argument either way from history. But I'm curious as to why you think that has accelerated. First of all, do you think that's accelerated Christians participating in the culture wars? And if so, why have we become so hypnotized by them, mesmerized by these culture wars that are going on around us? Yeah. Well, we went through a culture war really after World War II, called the Cold War. We had a cultural war element between communism and democracy. And that very much shaped the world. You know, you watch a movie like Rambo or Rocky with, you know, where he fights the Soviet fighter. There are also still own movies. But, you know, if you go back and watch movies from the 1980s or even '70s, there's this constant theme of cultural war between those two political forces. When the world became unipolar, meaning America became the sole power in the world, in a sense that America got to determine so much of global culture and popular culture. And politics seem to disappear there, particularly at the fall of the Iron Curtain. And we almost went into this anti-politics or agnostic politics time where people thought that the economy is going to keep growing. The world's going to slide to a sort of utopia. Politics is almost over. We don't need to argue about these things. I always think of the show 'Sign Felt', which was the most popular show about nothing, you know, just their individual lives and little quirks they went through in their day. And all of a sudden, culture was come back. And I think part of that is because the United States in particular, as the country which shapes the world so much in terms of particularly the English-speaking world, through its popular culture, re-entered into a political battle, really. And that has gone through the whole of the culture. So everything that we have, you can imagine like an expanding circle where perhaps in the '90s, politics was spoken about, like people are really interested in politics, but now it's expanded out into everything. So in terms of Christians, one thing I've been fascinated by is just looking at other areas. I'm improving on some online conversations around just following some American Muslims and what they were thinking. And it looked exactly the same as some of the battles you'll see in the American Christian Church. People are calling each other 'woke' and accusing other people who want supremacists. And this was in Muslim chats. It was just fascinating. You look at, in Judaism, you've got different parts of Judaism, from liberal Judaism to Orthodox Judaism, which is splitting politically. You see this in... I remember that when I dawned on me that something big was happening, was when I read an article about how the culture had split the knitting community in America. It's like actually like knitting quilts and outkins, types of knitting. And people were like, in 2020, like what side are you on, and people were like knitting instead of just like a scarf, or we would say jump out, people would understand where it's at. Like political statements on them, and these groups are falling apart. So for me, I think it's less why have Christians been engulfed in it. The big question for me is, why has so much of culture... Now in Australia, it's not as widespread. I don't feel the culture is anywhere like it is in other countries. But you can see places like Brazil, India, like polarization, Netherlands, it's gone across the world. I think a lot is driven by popular culture becoming much more political at every level. And then therefore that begins to overtake. Because we live so much in the world now, it's harder to distance yourself from the world. So social media just means we're constantly in an ideological soup. So that leads me to my next question, which is, why has our theology? We've talked particularly in the last four years about the crisis and discipleship, right? When COVID hit, everybody looked around, people left the church, people deconverted, people became secular, whatever. And it's like, whoa, we have a crisis in discipleship. What is it about our theology that has left us not as well inoculated from the culture wars as we perhaps hoped we had been? Does that make sense as a question? Why was our theology not more robust that we could see or that we can see, hey, this isn't gospel. This is culture. Any thoughts on that? I think almost the subset of theology here is missiology. And I think part of my approach to ministry has been particularly as the new begin who were outside of the West context, but then came back and applied the principles that we've learned to communicate the gospel well in different cultural contexts back to the West. And in missiology, you're always asking the question, what part of my communicating the gospel and what part am I living at the Kingdom, but also what are parts of my culture that I'm bringing? So, missiology naturally brings self-examination. What parts of my culture and biases that I don't see, not in some sort, I know those word biases used a lot in the culture, I'm more many from a biblical sense, that in a sense that I'm a fallen sinful person. So, there's going to be things where I'm going to fall short. So, how am I doing that? So, you're constantly examining your side in missiology. I think what's happening now is there's people who are doing a form of missiology, but it's always at the other side. And part of my analysis is I look what's happening, say, in the culture war, you can look at and say, "Well, the other side's bad, they're the ones doing everything wrong." And that may indeed be largely true. But what polarization does is it makes you look at the people across the aisle, but it doesn't look at the overarching dynamic that's happening in society. That's why I say culture war is really the political kind of political culture in many countries. But what happens is that often when you are looking across the aisle at your political enemy, you're missing what you're doing wrong. And often also what happens is you're looking for, it's so emotional, cultural war, and it always touches key issues of identity, meaning belonging. And often what happens is you get seduced in a cultural war, not by waking up and all of a sudden one day, you're your political enemy. The person who's super conservative is not going to wake up one day, "Oh, I'm a Marxist." I mean, it occasionally happens. The person who's super left is not going to wake up and say, "Well, I'm a fascist." You more get seduced by the people you've made alliances with against the other side. So the enemy seduces you by coming close sounding like, so it's actually allies which often compromise us. And I think you need a theology or a missiology where you can examine yourself. Stay true. So like, hear me. I'm not talking about a constant sort of self-flagellation, but you need to ask the question, "Hey, I could be getting this wrong and wherever I sort of my culture has been compromised, then it's not possible." And now a quick word from one of our partners. Today's episode is brought to you by Preaching Cheat Sheet. A recent study showed that 46% of pastors say one of their biggest struggles is feeling like attendees don't absorb or use what they preach. Did you hear that? 46%. A pastor's feel that way. Look, I get it. Okay, we've all been there, but if you feel this way more often than not, I would love to help. I have a free 10-step Preaching Cheat Sheet that outlines you guessed at 10 simple steps to help you get the most out of your sermon prep. Each step ensures that your sermon and delivery are clear. In other words, you're ready to go before you get into the pulpit. You don't sit there at lunch going, "Ah, you know, could have done this. Could have done that." Get that done first. Over 30,000 pastors have downloaded copy to help with their sermon prep. It's something I still use to this day, even after decades of preaching. I love filling out each of the steps as I write my sermon, and then I sit down to review the message the night before, and I can go in with reasonable confidence that this message is going to land, or at least that I have done my best. So I'd love to get a copy for you for free. If you want to be more confident on Sunday mornings, visit preaching cheat sheet.com. That's preaching cheat sheet.com to download your copy for free. And now back to the conversation. Well, I absolutely love your podcast, the rebuilders podcast, one of your podcasts, and you had a series of episodes over the course of this year on conspiracy theories, corruption, elites, et cetera, that I thought were very eye-opening. I want to start with conspiracy theories. They seem to be as widespread as ever. Can you help us understand why these are so appealing, why they keep spreading? And then I'd love a few pointers on what to do when you as a leader in a local context have someone come up and they're peddling the latest conspiracy theory on you name it. Yeah. Well, a few things like conspiracy theories have grown in our time. And a few things about conspiracy, number one, one of the things, particularly if you live in a liberal, Western democracy, one of the things that you imbide without realizing is that you can have a significant say over what is happening in the world through voting and engaging the political process. We increasingly live in a world which is globalized, hugely complex. And even some of our elected officials are struggling with the issues that they're facing. So you actually feel very, very disempowerly. And I just go to the government and these problems are still here. And as that sense of disenfranchised men from the political process, people start to have to have a story to explain that. This doesn't seem to be changing. This doesn't make a difference. There must be something bigger going on. Now, the other thing that is difficult with conspiracy theories is you can also fall into this binary of going all conspiracy theories are bad or all conspiracy theories are true. And the reality is throughout history, there are times when governments don't tell the truth. I'll give a non-controversial example for your audience. When World War II happened, Japanese army attacked all across the Pacific Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and they bombed the northern city of Darwin in Australia. And actually, the Australian government did not tell the full extent because it was wartime of the damage that had been inflicted in Darwin. So the government actually withheld the truth of what was going on. And they saw that as valuable to the propaganda efforts of the Australian army and not to demoralize the Australian people. So there are things that are hidden. Another example, just recently, more evidence came out in the trial that the 9/11 families have put to try and get more evidence of possible Saudi government involvement in 9/11. And there is stuff that is coming out, the British intelligence services of releasing videos, which show things that people did not know. So there is an element that in that story, because of geopolitical realities, there was some stuff around 9/11, particularly the Saudi government's involvement, that the American government didn't want to know because of different geopolitical interlinking. Now, that's not the same as some conspiracy theories where people are saying, "Oh, there was explosives put on every floor and they detonated the 9." So the world is complex and governments sometimes do not release all of the information. The files on JFK have not been fully released. Donald Trump said he would got into office, did release them. So there's some things that we don't know. And in an individual West, where we're told that we're empowered, that drives us insane. So there is an element that sometimes those in power will hold things back. But I think conspiracy theories, where it then moves into a kind of almost religious sense, where it becomes an explanation of the different dynamics that are operating the world. It becomes an explanation for evil. So all evil that is pertained against me must be because of a hidden cabal out there. So there is this real nuance needed at the moment where I think some of the things, so for example, I think governments have lost some legitimacy. You look at the reasoning given to go into the Iraq war, was presented that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. That was not true. And we know more about that. So I think leaders walking their way through this need to recognize, when is someone genuinely asking truth to power? And then when is someone entering into almost the religious framework where everything is answered by this worldview that's very rudimentary and very pits asked versus a shadowy cabal at the top. But also in a world where I often tell people to read the book, McMarthia by Michiglenny, which is about economic corruption in the world. And there is a lot of conspiracies around economic corruption. So a lot of conspiracies I actually think go back to economic corruption versus some ideological group trying to move everything towards their direction. So what do you do on a pastoral level? Because I mean, people can debate this forever. It starts to infect small groups. It becomes the Q&A you get over coffee. I've been to red church. So you know, you're having a nice flat white at the bat. And somebody comes up and says, well, you know what really happened at fill in the blank. How do you approach that on a congregational level when you've got conspiracy theories one way or the other flying around? Yeah, I think again too, it's training people to do what I guess I said in the previous answer, which is to be a messiologist to examine. Okay, so yeah, what's the truth in that? What could be wrong? What could we be missing? And I think when you do that, people start to go, Oh, okay, you know, like, so I think a lot of this comes down to discernment. There is going to be reality too, where you have to, you know, create some firewalls, because there are some people which is zealots about this. And there are, you know, which could be in the part, what if I need to see, is it the past people might have said, I've got this group in my church, which is really big into this particular theological, you know, like, you know, issue that seems to be disappearing. And it's been replaced by politics in many ways. So I think, you know, there's some points where if it's becoming destructive, so also, there's conversations need to happen in the sort of boundaries of how we're encouraged to do that as the Christian church, you know, respect, listening to the other person and attitude of love and kindness, also need to develop that. But I also just recognize, you know, like, again, I say I have the privilege in Australia, where I think we have that, you know, an ability to talk around things more. I know many parts of self spoken to us just come like a firestorm through their church. And that will happen sometimes. So yeah, I recognize it's any, I can say that from a place that it being easier for me. Happy to discuss this with you. And we may get some listener feedback on this, but my approach over the years. And remember, I'm not leading a church day today. I'm helping church leaders. So I'm not leading this day today in 2024. But, you know, conspiracy theories have been around for a while. I remember leading through 9/11. And I can picture the people who would come up to me, well, you know what really happened, you know what really happened on, or they're researching some niche issue and they come back and it's like, well, you know, the truth behind that is, and they basically tell me this. And then I would just not comment. Yeah. Yeah. And it would fall to the ground like a thud. And I'd say something like, well, thanks for sharing that or good to talk to you. And I would just not comment and let it die. And it almost like gave the message that this kind of stuff is not what we're going to major in here. I don't know whether that would fly in this exact current. But I mean, in a large measure, that's what I do on this show. That's what I do in all the comments. I mean, anybody who's been in the internet for 10 minutes knows it's not hard to attract commenters who are in that. And we just kind of let those comments die if they can become really disruptive. It's like, Hey, that's not what we're leading with here. Just so you know, we're going to focus on the gospel. We're going to focus on a different emphasis. What are your thoughts about that? In the moment, good strategy, bad strategy or outdated? Feel free to, you know, I think it can be a good strategy. I think, you know, we're going to, with that rebuilds podcast, you know, we have some similar things where, you know, like, time is really important. And you know, people talk about rabbit holes and there's, you know, the fascinations that people get into. I have my own fascinations about obscure issues, you know, like, I'll go down. But I also know that, you know, if I'm at a dinner party, probably people don't want to hear about my exploration of, you know, the political culture of some random country in the 1970s. You know, so you got to learn of when it's appropriate. And so I think it's actually a good one. I think it's a good one for many issues as well today, that just because we have an opinion and we have platforms that enable us to broadcast opinion, that doesn't always translate into interpersonal relationships in the same way. So I think it's a good approach. Yeah, and I find if you fan it, you kind of fuel it. And if you let it die, it's like, that's, that's kind of not what we're about here. We're going to focus on reaching people, introducing people to the gospel. You know, you're working really hard on revival right now, you can point them to what God is doing in your midst, etc, etc. Okay, helpful. There's also really appreciated your work on elite power and corruption as well. Clearly, there's corruption around the world. I mean, I've read major corporations have got like a, they don't call it. Maybe I heard this on your podcast. I can't remember whether it was from a friend, but it was like, you know, we have a director in charge of corruption to make sure that things actually cross borders and, you know, government officials and part of me in my little, you know, naive bubble that I live in wants to believe that's not true, but it's true. So on the one hand, you can live in denial. It's like, none of that stuff is real. On the other hand, you can be like, everybody's corrupt. And, you know, I got a theory about this. And, you know, the elites are always stealing power, etc. You know, you should see what happens at the World Economic Forum, etc. I would love your thoughts on how to pastor when that becomes an issue. For the people you're leading. Yeah, I think what's happened in many contexts. It's happened globally. It's more intense in some places. I would say the United States is one place where this is more intense is that suspicion of power and elites has trickled down. So instead of like, you know, those two large, you know, billionaires who are behind that political campaign in that election, it becomes, well, my pastor, well, you know, you're part of this, or part of this big story. So there's this innate suspicion around power. You know, I think that there's an element where, you know, I've been in situations where you meet people who have influence. And when you start to understand something, you realize that, again, there's a lot we don't know. And that's disempowering, but it's not always the worst, if that makes sense. But sadly, that suspicion, you know, how many of your suspicion, if you like, has become part of so many places where I think we there's almost a sort of left rejection of power as something which inherently creates a hierarchy. But there's also a conservative rejection of power that anyone in power now is pushing a secret agenda as well. You know, in Australia and some other countries, we have something called the tall poppy syndrome where those in leadership must be cut down. So I think, you know, being an Australian, you're just born into a cultural context where power is seen as suspicious. Anyone has power, you know, must be sort of brought down. And there's an element there, which I think that one way I've seen it, it's really difficult at times, but it creates a humbling dynamic constantly. And it's a thorn in the flesh at times. But I think it also does undermine the potential to go to the opposite extreme, which is to allow power to corrupt you. So, you know, what it means is that your authentic self having to win people over sit down with people, work through people, see people see you as an actual human being is also leading at the same time. I think there's also an invitation in that moment as well. And helping people understand that, you know, leaders are also servants, you know, and leaders are actually here to partner with those that they lead. I think once you get into that sort of posture, it begins to undermine some of those dynamics. You know, I'm curious about this because you're extremely well read, you watch YouTube videos for a hobby, you read for a hobby, be curious to know what rabbit hole you're following yourself personally that might bomb at a cocktail party. But, you know, you're right, I take a month off every summer and that month isn't spent entirely offline, but it's largely offline. And one of the things that always amazes me is, and I don't want to be agnostic about what's happening at the world in the world or indifferent to what's happening in the world. I believe God has a plan for the world. I believe he loves the world, etc. But it's amazing how much of that steady diet of information and social media has zero bearing on day to day life. You can, you know, unless there's some kind of nuclear holocaust or whatever, you can live through an election, you can live through, you know, and that's a privileged position living in a peaceful country in North America or Australia. But it's amazing how much that stuff gets in your head when you're following it and how irrelevant it really is if you spend a month or a week largely offline. Any thoughts about healthy amounts of intake, healthy amounts of information versus unhealthy amounts of information? I think it's, you know, like you can eat different kinds of food and has different calorie levels and health or it's processed or whatever. And I think part of what this is, is it is a quantity amount, but it's also a quality issue, if that makes sense. So for example, you know, there is currently a conflict in Sudan and, you know, it's incredibly tragic. And, you know, it has geopolitical implications and virtually no one knows about it. You know, the death toll is incredible and people outside of perhaps the, you know, Sudanese diaspora, you know, there's very few people who are talking about it. So to sit and read say, a New York Times article, which gets into the history of this conflict, you know, the different sides, what's going on, you read that, that does bring a different emotion than if you're just flicking through memes of, you know, cultural war stuff in the election. You know, so for me, one thing I try and do is, you know, I do ingest a lot of content. I haven't said it before. You don't have to be me. I run a podcast. I'm fascinated by this stuff. But one thing in that I, I do differently is I always go to the macro. What's the big story here? So that's me. But I think, you know, clicking off is really crucial. I think the fact that our phones are constantly in our pocket, your phone is the business model of your phone is to get you looking at it as much as possible. And getting you angry about politics one way, it can do that. And actually it's, it's, you are like, like, just as, you know, oil is a resource or lithium is a resource that people are trying to pull out of the earth. They're trying to pull your attention out of the earth. And that's sold on your attention to companies and billions and billions of dollars are made from your attention. So some of the smartest minds are out there trying to get your attention. So, you know, like I was looking at a bunch of stuff the other day. And just having those moments where you switch off, go outside, look at the natural environment you're in, you know, I'm looking at a lot of overseas stuff. And then I want to say, I'm in Melbourne. I'm in this particular part of Melbourne. There's the hills over there. Here's these trees. They're going to be here in 10 years when these politicians come and go. I think that eternal perspective is really key. The other thing too is that there is a disempowering. I think it was Thomas Kelly in Testament of Devotion, his book, which talked about that. We actually can't affect as much as we think. So I'm actually just going to pick one thing that you're going to do. Most of our influence, actually, is going to be at a local level with the people you made walking your kids to school. We have a political influence in the world, but it's actually far less than we think. And realizing that is a humbling thing, but also a freeing thing. Well, and it's the difference between being outraged at what's happening in a capital city of your country, what's happening in Washington, what's happening in, you know, London or something like that, which you probably can't control versus your neighbor who needs someone to mow their lawn, or a friend who's grieving that really needs someone to come sit with them right. And I'm saying you have to completely ignore that. I'd love to know. I've talked to Seth Godin about this. He's coming back on the podcast this fall, which I'm excited for. But he says, "Choose your sources really, really carefully." And I think there's wisdom to that. And, you know, as they say, you're not going to beat the algorithm. And I'm struggling with that, too. You know, I'll get sucked into reels. And they're for longer than I want to be. And I'm like, man, that force is very, very difficult to defeat. So what are some filters, boundaries, guardrails, guidelines that you have embraced to make sure that your online consumption is more constructive than destructive. Yeah. So some things that I listen to is like podcasts, like the BBC World Service, which give you an overarching thing. I listen to the news, but then I put it. So I have in my day a timer, and I'm going to consume the news. And I actually think text is better than reels and memes and all of this, you know, like, and you know, reading an article where you understand the broadness of the topic. It's also really helpful to get outside of your own country. One of the brilliant things about this time in history is that you can look at new sources from other countries, which I often do, you know. And you begin to realize, so like, Indian politics is, you know, very energetic and has the same cultural issues. And, you know, I understand some of them, but it's just interesting sometimes to jump on an Indian newspaper and we go, wow, they're all angry about this stuff. But I don't even understand who half of these people are. And once you sort of have a distance from it, it gives your perspective back on your own environment that this is what this must look like to outside us. So I think in terms of sourcing, most news is biased towards a particular direction. It doesn't give you all the information trying to get as broad perspective as possible. And then having limits on that, you know, I think about the fact that, you know, my dad growing up, my dad was always very engaged with the news. And he would wake up, listen to the radio for 20 minutes, he got ready, he'd reach the newspaper with his breakfast. And then he would engage with the news during the day, he went to work, he got on the train. And he'd come home at night and watch the seven o'clock news, which made him very informed that there was boundaries around that, you know, he wasn't constantly following things. So I think having your own, we've got to put the boundaries in now. So just having a moment of the day, if you do want to be informed about the world, which I think we should, I still believe, I guess the bottom half a quote, you know, read the Bible with your newspaper in one hand. I think that's still important to know what to pray in the world, engage with the world, but having limitations around that so that you're not constantly being overwhelmed. I think that's really important. Yeah, and it's important for people to know, as much as you enjoy this, you are leading a local church that's got services every weekend and people to minister to, et cetera, et cetera. You've mentioned, and we talked about this briefly, the 1930s, the Second World War. I'm wondering if you see parallels to the Second World War, you mentioned Bonhoeffer, the Nazi sympathizers with the evangelical church versus the confessing church. We've heard those illusions made over the last five or 10 years. Do you see that at all, or you think, nah, this is a different era? Yeah, I mean, I think there was, there's a difference between what happened at the beginning of the 1930s and what happened at the end of the 1930s. At the beginning of the 1930s, you had, you know, real polarization. There was a sense that liberal democracies were under tremendous pressure. There was the tremendous economic effects of the Great Depression, which is far worse than what we have now. There was, you know, Bolshevik sort of military, you know, militias on the street versus fascist militias in different countries, and they have been in more places than people realize. And there was just a general sense that society was coming undone. Now, what that led to was, you know, some barriers, you know, fascist regimes in different countries, like Italy and Germany. I don't think we're at that stage yet. I think we're earlier on. And, you know, I think Mr. Mark Twain said history repeats as it rhymes, but it doesn't repeat. So I think there's a range of where you can learn from it and see some parallels. You know, are we at the stage where, you know, we're at a Bonhoeffer stage? I don't think so in many Western countries. It's really important, you know, upset and spoke into Christians in Iran. And when you hear what it's like to be a Christian in Iran, or places like that, or hear from North Koreans, who I think are in a Bonhoeffer situation, you begin to realize the difference between where we are as well. And I think one of the difficulties in cultural war, there's a term maximalist, maximalist is taking every position to the extreme view. So people say, you know, we're here. We're here yet. We need nuance in these particular things. We always need to be vigilant about, you know, where things could go politically, but we also need to be realistic. Yeah. And when you talk to someone from Iran, where, you know, they're basically preparing for the fact that, you know, they could get a job at any moment. And what's the plan when the secret police rock on the house because you're a pastor? You know, I don't think we're at that stage at all. Can for those who may not be familiar with Bonhoeffer's history, can you give us the thumbnail on Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Yeah, yeah, Bonhoeffer was part of a group, you know, Copy Confessing Church, you know, which realized as fascism and Nazism, you know, rose in Germany, that they had to take a stand as the Nazi state tried to shape the church, particularly the state, leader in church, towards its ends. And for Bonhoeffer, this took him on a sort of journey that was, you know, theological and political, where he was, you know, in Oxford, he was, he was, in a sense, in safety, but he decided to come back to Germany to serve the Confessing Church and be as a witness to the church. And this led him towards being part of a plot with some other political figures to assassinate Hitler. And this plot then saw him imprisoned. And sadly, he lost his life at the very end of the war, what war and became a martyr. So Bonhoeffer, for a lot of people, provides a example of how do you resist, you know, totalitarian regimes? And how do you stay true to your faith in a moment of totalitarianism? Yeah, an interesting study. I want to read some more Bonhoeffer this year. Okay, I want to drill down on some very practical do's and don'ts and strategies and tactics that I want to cover with you. But before we leave that, is there any other broad overarching philosophical, theological, metaphorical issue that you think is coloring the conversation now that maybe we haven't touched on? I think what people need to realize is that we're in a political process, which is very normal throughout history. I think part of the reasons this moment seems so crazy, is we went through an unusual period of history, you know, in the 90s, the 2000s, where the world seemed peaceful and politics, in a sense, seemed over. Francis Vicki Yammer, the American political scientist declared the end of history. And what he meant by that is the great struggle for what political systems going to run the world is over and liberal capitalistic democracy won. And so people have grown up in this really weird time where you could just do church and get as many people in a room and you didn't have to do with political issues. And it was more about what's the car parking situation like or are the seats comfortable? And in a sense, we've just returned to normality. So I think that's really important for people to know. Read about the 14th century. Read about the 1930s. Read about the 1960s. The church has always been involved in very politically fractious times. The other thing I was going to say to is I think it's really important that people don't see what's particularly in the US and some of these elections are happening that this is not going to be a rerun of 2016 or 2020. There are new things happening in the world. Politics is fragmenting. I think we're moving from polarization to hyper fragmentation, whereas not going to be two sides versus each other. It's also happening in a world which geopolitics is influencing more and more and more. That's what happens in a country on the other side of the world. So we are moving almost to a Cold War situation in the world where you've got sort of an alliance of NATO, Western countries, sort of positioning themselves increasingly against the sort of axis of Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, countries like that. So this is going to shape the elections going forward. They might not seem like they did in the past, and they're actually going to be, I think, more complex. And that level of complexity, I think it's going to create is going to undermine polarization. So I think polarization is going to be slowly undermined by the complexity in the world. So what a lot of us grew up in and got used to leading in is a bubble, and it's over 100 percent, 100 percent. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's sobering, but it's also helpful to know. So in light of all that, Mark, I want to know what are some do's and don'ts that you would have for pastors leading through this fall and beyond, because whatever happens, this isn't going away. We're in a different world. What are some do's and don'ts in your mind for leaders on the ground? Number one is understand your context. I think because we feel like social media makes the world close, what is the actual realities in your particular context? And you may be blind to them. So for example, where we are here in Melbourne, there is a large Chinese population. And one of the real polarization issues has been around politics in China. During the Hong Kong protests, there was posters and sort of protests and different things happening. Now, for a lot of that, that was a dominant thing in the community where I live. Now, that wasn't on my social media that much, because I'm not on Chinese language, social media. But for people in this area, that was a very real issue. And so sometimes what I find is that I meet people, and even this is true of people in Australia or New Zealand, who are very invested in what's happening in American politics or who's the VP pick in the American election, and sometimes social media disconnects us from the actual political realities on the ground where you are. So just because social media has seemingly evaporated the distance between where you are, still be very connected to your local community, particularly if you're a pastor, someone living in a community, be connected where you are. I think it's going to be really hard to, I think just being careful of what to speak into and what to not speak into. So what I mean by that is, there's definitely some issues which have a kind of national importance which you need to speak into. But increasingly, the issues that are going to come across your path, that's just going to come more and more and more. And there's an element where people can fall into a position of having to almost make policy statements on so many different things, to the point where what's your policy statement as a church on who should be the elected leader in Venezuela. You know what I mean? It gets to the point where you're not necessarily, it's not like you're a, and I think even universities and local governments are struggling with this now of what do you make a comment on something that maybe on the other side of the world or initially that you have little control over. So I think, you know, I don't have an answer. I'm not saying then don't mention anything because there'll be things of national importance, local importance, global. And often I just find praying for things is sometimes better than a statement, if that makes sense. Praying into situations is really, really key. The third thing I would say too is realize your limitations. Again, I just repeat, you know, I love looking at this stuff. I love understanding politics and culture. It's really almost a hobby for me that I get to talk about. You don't have to understand everything like I do. And sometimes get people like, man, how do I understand everything like you don't have to. You know, you're a person who has finite time. You have finite knowledge on these things. Don't be forced into a corner where you have to understand everything because the big flash, I mean, the issue that people are probably going to be talking about in two years, possibly two months is not the issue they're talking about now. The church has got caught in that 24 hour news cycle as well as the whole of society. So I think understanding your limitations and even being honest with people around that, I think is really key going forward because, let me tell you now, I was probably going to politicians and they don't even understand all of these issues, let alone the local church pastor. So I think free yourself of having to be pastor, slash political expert, sociological expert on everything. We need to be informed, but the amount of stuff that we have to get our head around is so growing rapidly that I think is becoming a burden for many people. And that's an expectation which is unfair on a lot of leaders. I think that's a really good point, Mark. And I wonder if we've seen the pendulum start to swing back in the other direction. There was a period a few years ago where everybody needed a statement on everything. And when an incident happened, he had to post immediately on social media, he had to make some kind of statement issue, a press release. And I've seen a few companies anyway, now go, you know what, we make pots and pans. We're not issuing a statement on every event, or we make clothing. That's what we do. We're not going to have a position on every public policy issue. And I wonder if there's wisdom in church leaders and I love, I don't want people to miss what you said when you said you can pray about it. Like you can pray about the election. But that doesn't mean you have to comment on every aspect of the election knowing that hopefully you've got people from both sides of the aisle in your aisles that you've got people from both sides of the spectrum within your community or all sides of the spectrum from within your community. Any thoughts on that? Are we starting to get a little more like, hey, maybe we don't have to say something on everything? Or did I miss something in that? No, no, I think you're right. We've seen that in companies that increasingly companies are just finding that, you know, it's really difficult. And, you know, as I said, you're never really going to miss something. I'm an example of Sudan. I just, you know, I've not heard a church make us say I'm a Sudan. I've heard some church, you know, so the Palestine Sudan situation is really interesting. There's a lot of, you know, focus on Nongaza and Palestine and Israel. Very similar situation having a Sudan, virtually no commentary. So, you know, there's an element that you're going to miss something eventually. So also, I don't want people to hear me saying, let's be apolitical. You know, I saw a church in a country that's not yours, not mine, where there's been a real national issue. And I just saw on Instagram last night that they're going to call a prayer meeting around them. I thought, "Brian, you need to talk into that. That is a national issue. That is contentious, but you need to be praying into that fear-nation brilliant." But I think having to comment on every single thing, you know, it becomes different. Even politicians are pulling back from that a bit, because, you know, it just puts yourself in the possible position at times. I think one other thing I would say as well, I think we need to understand that you can do this incredibly well and you're still going to get a backlash. You know, I just said this, but rebuilders, you know, we really try to go macro on things and we still get backlashes and we've had people have have goes at us and stuff like this. You know, I personally, speaking through things, nuance, you know, with nuance, praying about things, I've still had people come up and rip shreds off me. And I think part of there is almost like a mentality, particularly for younger leaders, it's about the came of age in that period where politics disappeared and, you know, you can almost take that all the way up to 2016. That, well, I can just do this in the right way and do these five things and I'm not going to experience this. And I think there's a reality that part of what we call to do as leaders is that Jesus very clearly said, you know, people against you and it's unpopular. And I think, you know, that that's almost something we need to just outline as part of leadership. Leadership is really tough at times. And I think we've done a disservice to many leaders saying, no, it's not. You can do these seven things and you're going to be really popular. It's simply not. So I think there is a way where this is just part of something. And when that happens, like, you know, I had a situation which was just really tough around this. And I remember afterwards, just like, Lord, it came at the worst moment. Like I was at a low moment and with a bunch of other stuff going on. And, you know, I just thought, God, I'm not getting a bit here. I'm not going to get scared. How does this push me back to you? And I think those feeling dread looking forward to upcoming elections and going, okay, instead of like going, we do need to be wise in these things we can do. And hopefully there's wisdom in what we presented here today and what you're presenting in some of this series. There's a point where we're not good enough to dodge the political bullets on all this stuff and not be controversial. And you can say this nuanced thing on this. I've done this. I've literally said this most nuanced thing that I prepare for days and someone will come up with the conspiracy serials. It's too right, too left, whatever. And that draws me back to God. So like, if you're anxious about this season, what if God is allowing some of this fractiousness that continue to push the church back into a dependency on him, not into techniques and procedures that will protect us from pain? Well, let that sink in for a moment. I think that's really good advice. It doesn't always protect us from pain. And there's part of me that really misses that little golden era where we all got a free pass for a few minutes. And we're not there anymore. I'm going to ask you a hypothetical question. And I could say, you know, do this for Australia, but Australia isn't nearly as contentious as the United States is right now, nor is Canada. Any thoughts on whether it's wise to preach a series around the election? I'm not talking about, hey, we're endorsing so-and-so, not so-and-so. I'm not talking that. But like, to what extent would you speak into that beyond prayer? Where is the wisdom in that? Knowing that, you know, what you just shared, you're probably going to get in trouble anyway. If you don't speak about it, people are going to be like, why aren't you? You know, if you do speak about it, you didn't do it this way or that way. What's your wisdom on speaking into the issues right now as people head into the fall? Well, the first thing again, I would fully go into prayer for discernment number one. What are you asking us to do here? The second thing I'd ask context, like, I think it's true, the US is facing a contentious election. What's your context? You know, I've got friends who are in completely Republican states. I've got friends who are in completely Democrat states or cities or whatever. And others who have absolute fault lines have gone through tremendous polarization, division, people leaving over the last little while. So first of all, what's your context? Secondly, what's the context of your leadership? You know, you may be just a pastor with maybe one person on an administrator or you could have a whole team. You know, you'd almost need everyone on board if you can do something like this. But I was talking to American pastor just a couple weeks ago and he's going to do a series, but he's going to come at it very biblically because there were resources, books on the book of Revelation, studying books on it, which sounds like, oh my goodness, being the revelation during an election series. But there is many things in the scriptures where I think Paul and the rise in New Testament are struggling with this. They were in a very political environment with a Roman Empire. And I think there is resources in scripture. So I would come at it very biblically as well. You must have to get people out of, don't come at almost front. This is my, if I was going to do it, don't come at frontally, like we're going to go to these issues, go in the first century. This is what they're facing and this is what they learn. This perhaps relates to us today. So I think at the end of the day, bringing people back to the word, to scriptures, to understanding how people throughout history have approached these things, to realize that there's, we're not the only ones who've gone through this. The people of God have faced these things before and often even more intense things before. I would talk to people outside of your own context, interview someone on video. I was watching a video of some Christians in Lebanon who were doing some prayer initiatives and what Lebanon has gone through. Oh my goodness. When you think of polarization, civil war, the Beirut, but you know, port lines, you start listening to that and you go, what am I? Yeah, because what am I worrying about? In comparison to what they go through and people still live their lives. In a sense, but Lebanon's gone through the utter nightmare that many of its fear could happen. And people still go to the supermarket and people meet in church and just hearing their stories outside of your context and perhaps we went on the context of the things politically could be helpful as well. Something it could be a wise thing, but you really want to pray about it, think through it, discern it and make it biblical. I think there are some pastors who are afraid of their congregation. They remember what happened in 2020, 2016. They've tried whatever they got bitten. They really prayed about it. They were as nuanced as they could be. What advice do you have? And you've certainly taken your share of criticism both outside and inside your church. What advice do you have for pastors who might feel afraid of their congregation or the reaction of their congregation? Well, fear, you know, and I don't know how to say this, as you just explained over who I've lived is. Fear is a fantastic field for the enemy to plant seeds. And, you know, fear has a corrosive effect on leadership. People are drawn to leaders who have confidence and boldness and go forward with courage. We follow those who are brave, but also there can be full heartiness as well and braveness without wisdom and desire. I think we have to say goodbye to the myth that did develop in the church during that golden period that if we just do some focus groups and, you know, again, have nice lighting, have nice seats and car parking, that we can get a large group in a room and that's the goal. At the end of the day, I think we are living in more fractious times. And there's going to be people who leave and get offended no matter what you do. That's what I realized. And also, I've had the other experience where you so prepare for something and you nuance it and then person A over here reacts to something completely different and ridiculous and I could never have thought of that. This is what I know how this happened. So, you know, I do think that at the end of the day, we have to realize that we're being called to preach God's word, to partner with God as his kingdom advances in the world, to bring people to Jesus. And we're not going to do that just pleasing everyone. We're just going to create a sort of, you know, I don't know, anodyne, beige, Christianity that the world is not looking for, you know. Can I just say, really interesting stat that came out of Australia? And I don't think America is here at all if you're hearing this, but I just found this fascinating there. Recently, we were told that Australians trust in institutions had plummeted, but to our complete shock, one institution that had gone up was the church because people are becoming so disillusioned with all the institutions of society. They're like, "I need church guys, you're a bit strange." But, you know, we're going to give you a try because everything else is falling over. People need to hear there is more of those people than people realize out there. You know, you know, there is something happening. It's happening in Australia, it's happening in Britain, it's happening in Europe. I think it's not happening in the U.S. more where people are just going, "You know, I don't know what to believe anymore." Like, there is a, you know, there was a chat talk, I want to talk about deconstruction in the church. What a lot of people don't realize is there's deconstruction happening at the society. Secularism needs society to operate in a particular way, to promise the ability to live with that God. There are many people outside of the church, deconstructing society. So, yes, people are going to be annoyed by something you may say in church. There's probably going to be another group of people who rock up and want to hear the message of Jesus. And there's an evangelistic opening happening at this moment that we also need to be aware of as well. So, you may lose some cultural Christians and pick up some brilliant comforts. That leads me into what I think is my final question for you, Mark, which is what opportunities does this present for the church? I mean, as fractious and difficult as it is, as nuanced as it is, and everything we talked about for the last hour, there's an opportunity here. What is it? So, two things. So, number one, you know, I really have been studying the 30s and the 1970s as parallel moments. And after the war, and then in the beginning of the 1980s, there was just this sense that people seem to get exhausted by the polarization. And they were just done. I couldn't do it anymore, particularly in the early 80s. So, there is a natural end to some of this stuff. I just wanted to say that. And there's a point where we're going, "I'm done. Let's start to build." When a time of tearing down, a time of building comes after. And so, I think people need to prepare for what comes out of this. Yes, you need to weather the storm, but there will be a time of social building after this. Secondly, so much of this is driven. Tribalization is driven by the death of community and connection in the West. We're going to see increasingly people looking for community and connection. And we are brilliant at doing that. The church is great at doing community. And you may not feel that, but there are so many people that have no one to talk to. They've just got a small group every week or whatever you call them, growth group, Bible study. That's going to become incredibly attractive to a lot of people to be in community. So, be aware of that. And certainly, I really do believe that there's a growing amount of people. Nick Cave, it was a musician I grew up from Melbourne, the post-punk artist. I remember watching him. He was a young like, we have his big cave in the bad seeds. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, you're kidding. Oh, wow. He would come on and he had this song. I remember looking as a kid, I just sort of was getting serious about my faith. And it seemed so dark and he had no shirt on. He was on a herald. And I was like, the absolute opposite to something which got holy. After the death of his son, he is sort of inching towards the church, turning up in church. There's something here. You're seeing many intellectuals starting to just pivot towards church. Dawkins has not got faith. He's talking about being a cultural Christian. Yeah, this is really unexpected. I think the more- Sorry, I missed that. Dawkins is talking about what? Yeah, Dawkins is sort of being described himself as a cultural Christian. He's saying, maybe there is utility to some of these things. You're hearing people begin to talk like this. And this has been happening a lot, particularly in Britain. There's been people having it. But we're seeing it on the streets of people who, when no one's listening, start to want to talk to that faith because they got serious questions. The more people that do psychedelic drugs, the more people that push into crazy stuff, that has some super negative stuff. And I don't want people doing that stuff. But it also means that people start to become spiritually open, you know, in the smalls of the 60s. And when a lot of that stuff happened, there was also the Jesus people movement again. And I think we're going to start to see stuff like that. One of my great sayings is, you know, crisis proceeds are renewal. So the more things that go into crisis, the less people look to the idols and ideologies of the world. And I think Mr. George Huntress said, you know, look, if you want to look for an evangelistic opening, look for the gap between idols. When people's belief in one idol fails, and before they've jumped onto the next one, there's this moment of openness. And I think that's happening now. So, you know, be aware of the opportunities in this moment. It's more chaotic. It's often more painful, but there's serious opportunities. I mean, the other way, I'll just pitch it. I think that golden period was also a rubbish period, because I got sick of trying to lead people who just want to comfort. And, you know, I think now we have an honest real, you know, I just, you have seen this here, traveling around my nation, a growing hunger for God for people who are just like, man, things are bad. We've got to press into God. So that's an opportunity we need to be aware of. And in a sense, just turn down the volume on some of the social noise. And, you know, what's the signal in the midst of all of that? That actually there's an openness to God. People need God. The church is built for moments like this. Let's take advantage of the opportunities. Mark, every time we talk, I feel like I'm seeing the present more clearly, and I'm getting insight into the future. And this has been so, so helpful. You do a lot. You've written numerous books. You have a great podcast and rebuilders. You preach on a weekly basis at your church. If there was a place you would direct people to to learn more, where would you send them? Yeah, you can go to my website, mugsayers.co. And you can check out different social media stuff there. Check out rebuilders going to new book coming out in 2025 called platforms, the pillars. This one very places the start. Well, this won't be our last conversation, Mark. Thanks for being part of our series. And thank you for all you do. You really helped me find clarity and make me think about things that honestly I never would think about without you. So thank you for that gift. Oh, thank you so much. I always love these chats. Man, I love Mark's mind. If you want more, we got show notes for you and go to karaenuhoff.com/episodes. 675. And remember on September 23rd, I am releasing my brand new course, the art of navigating church conflict. It's comprehensive. You'll learn frameworks, proven strategies, word-for-word scripts, and a whole lot more to deal with the criticism that you get in leadership. So if you want to navigate church conflict better, join the waitlist by going to artofchurchconflict.com. And then check out Convoy of Hope. Man, they do such great work. And if you want to reignite a love in your church congregation for compassion ministry, learn more and support their work and get involved at convoy.org/carry. That's convoy.org/cary. We're going to wrap up this podcast series on pastoring in a partisan age. Next episode with a one and only Sharon McMahon. Sharon says so on Instagram. And that is a powerful wrap up. Oh, my goodness. Second time I've interviewed her. This one over delivered. So make sure you tune in for that. Also coming up, Jim Collins, my interview with Mark Clark for our 10th anniversary. Lisa Turkers, Malcolm Gladwell, Seth Godin, Chuck DeGroat, Henry Cloud, Pete Scazero, and a whole lot more. And because you listened to the end, well, first of all, just thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for reviewing. The show has become so much more than I ever imagined it. And that's because of you. So in honor of our 10th anniversary, I want to support you. And I'm giving away one of my favorite things, several big green eggs. The grand prize winner gets an extra large big green egg. That's the exact big green egg that I have. So if you enjoy smoking or grilling or pizza or all of that stuff, man, I am a raving fan. We'll give you the extra large big green egg, all the accessories and a special steak subscription delivery that you're going to enjoy. Two runners up will get mini maxes. Those are small big green eggs that you can take tailgating, camping on the road, wherever you go. And I'll tell you, those are pretty cool prizes at least. I would be excited to get them. I don't even have a mini max. So we're going to give some away anyway. So leave a review or comment wherever you're listening or watching and then enter at CNLP.live. So leave a rating or review and then go to CNLP.live and follow the instructions. We are going to choose the winners on September 26th. This contest is open to US and Canadian residents only for shipping purposes. But hey, thank you to our global audience. If you're in North America, Canada or the US, enter now. And thank you so much for making this an incredible, incredible journey. Really appreciate you and the best is yet to come. So in the meantime, I hope our conversation today has helped you identify and perhaps even break a growth barrier you're facing.
