"The Art of Leadership Network." - You asked me the question, so I'm gonna answer it very, very candidly. I think that you make a huge mistake when you reduce the vision God's told you that you need to be doing to fit what you think people can handle. That's why 2/3 of all giving by Christians is done outside the church. That's a big number. And so it's not, it's sitting there. It's just not coming to you. (upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Carrie here, I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership, man. It's real to welcome you to the podcast. I do not take your time for granted and a special welcome to all the young leaders listening. You know, I see this as shortcuts. It's like what took a lot of us like decades to figure out, you can figure out so quickly, that's why we do what we do. And today, I feature lead domain. Might be a new name to you, but I met him a couple of years ago and my goodness have I ever learned a lot. We're gonna talk about what business leaders need from church leaders to create exponential growth and giving. We're gonna go inside the mind of an entrepreneur and we're gonna talk about the detoxing power of time off for leaders and a whole lot more. Today's episode is brought to you by 10 by 10 and compassion. You can visit 10by10.org/partners to learn more about how you can create healthy faith environments where young people thrive. And for over 70 years, compassion international has been lifting children from poverty. Get involved by going to compassion.com/carrying. Well, lead domain is an entrepreneur. He's an international speaker, a pastor and author of four books. He's passionate for the local church. He is deeply involved at church of the highlands in Birmingham, Alabama. He's the CEO of Grow Leader and he's got his own ministry, which we'll dive into deeply because we talk a lot about raising money for the church. Kingdom Builders US. Lee was the youngest person to be named the 2008 Business Report Junior Achievement Business Person of the Year. In 2014, Lee and his wife Laura received the Community Leaders of the Year Award from the Santa Corps Foundation. He served on various boards like A21, Omni Bank and Promise Keepers. So thank you really going to enjoy the conversation today. And hey, I know a lot of you are passionate about the next generation and you want to connect with other leaders to fast-track their learning and growth. Our friends at 10 by 10 are doing exactly that. They're convening leaders just like you in a conversation about the future of the church. With more than 130 partners, 10 by 10 is on a mission to make faith matter more to the next generation through relational discipleship radically focused on Jesus. From resources and training to research to thought leadership, 10 by 10 has a partnership opportunity for anyone with a desire to love young people and point them to Jesus. So if you want to get involved, go to 10by10.org/partners. I'll spell that out for you. T-E-N-X10.org/partners. To learn more about how you can partner with 10 by 10 and join a growing movement of leaders committed to creating healthy faith communities where young people can thrive. As a pastor and a leader, I have the privilege of seeing people released from difficult circumstances again and again. And while on their mission to release millions of children from poverty in Jesus' name, Compassion International has worked tirelessly to help others know their identity in Jesus Christ through the local church. They do it by teaching children and their families that only God gets to define them, not their circumstances. I've seen this on the ground. It's unbelievable to see the joy in people who are partnering with Compassion. My church has partnered with Compassion for over a decade. I want to encourage your church to get involved. And to do that, go to compassion.com/carry. Again, that is compassion.com/c-a-r-e-y. And now, whatever you're doing, you're at the gym. Maybe you're on a late season bike ride, I don't know. Maybe have it for a walk or just sitting down to listen or watch a podcast. Here we go, my conversation with Lee Domain. Lee, welcome to the podcast. - Gary, thank you so much. It's an honor to be here. Just love what you're doing and helping leaders all over the world and churches advance the kingdom. You're just, you're a blessing and I've, in meeting you and Cabo at an event recently, I've really admired you from afar but getting to know you's been a tremendous blessing. So thank you for having me. - Well, it's been a blessing to get to know you too and you're coming from the World Headquarters podcast studio at Church of the Highlands, Grow Leader, right? So that's awesome. And we're gonna talk about your involvement with Chris Hodges and Church of the Highlands and everything. But you and I were comparing notes beforehand were about a year apart, year ahead of me. You just celebrated a really big birthday and you did something that, have you ever done it before? Taken, what, six weeks off? - You know, I've tried many years to take time off and then I get to about eight, nine days and my wife's like, you need to go back to work. You're driving me crazy and just uptight, anxious climb in the walls. I gotta go do something. And so last year I took a month off and it was glorious but this year took about six and a half weeks off and did not open my laptop one time. - Wow. - Which was, it was weird. It was a different dynamic up until about week three. When I had a breakthrough in week three that was just glorious. And so I was detached. We took some trips, you know, celebrated my 60th birthday, which is we can reflect later on that. But it was a monumental birthday of reflection and it was different than any other. It was more weighty than any other birthday. But I took that time off to celebrate 35 years of marriage, 60th birthday and spend time with family and we just had an amazing time. I didn't even care what day it was after three weeks. I didn't even care. And so it was great. - So you are, you've had numerous companies that required your full attention. These days you devote a lot of your attention to the church and we're gonna talk about your work in terms of helping donors and helping churches realize their vision and so on. But you're an A-type like, very nice kind, but like A-type driven leader. What prevented you from taking that time off until your 60th birthday? - You know, one in my early years, I've been, I've built several businesses over 35 years. And so ranging from technology to the financial services industry to healthcare, oil and gas, even dabbled in aviation at one point and also real estate. So always been very entrepreneurial. Well, I thought honestly, I thought it was not a sin, but I thought you were weak if you took time off. I really did, it's like only weak people or lazy people take time off, you have to produce. So in the early years, my identity was really tied to the scorecard of what you produced in any area, whether it was financially, whether it was in building businesses or relationships or there was a scorecard. And so which produced really kind of an unhealthy work ethic where I worked over 80 hours a week for 20 years. And so I loved it, I love work. I do think work is a holy calling though, but I was out of balance. And so I really felt guilty about taking time off. I was never in the moment in vacations early on. I could act like it, my wife goes, you're really not connected to this, are you? And oh yeah, honey, I am, I am. And my mind's going 150 miles an hour on all kind of different business opportunities, but I loved it. So it was not hard to me to go and work the 80 hour work week, but it's not sustainable. And so it wasn't until a couple of years ago, Pastor Chris, he was like, you've got to make sure, you know what you can do for me? You got to stay healthy. That's the greatest gift that you can give me as your pastor, stay healthy. And so I started understanding what it meant that taking a Sabbath or taking time off was not a suggestion, it was actually a command, you know, in scripture. And so I started incorporating in that. And so last year took, you know, basically the month off and it was just amazing. But it wasn't until there's something about 21 days, Gary, that's a breakthrough moment. Kind of like the marathon runner at a certain pace, at a certain distance, they have this euphoric, I don't know if it's adrenaline or whatever, but it helps them go to a different gear. Same thing in taking time off. And it has to be time off that's all at one time, not moments of five days, four days, three days. It is several weeks off. And so for me, 21 days was the number where I had this breakthrough. And it was a decompression, it was almost like a drug. It was a decompression like I had never had before. And all of a sudden my sleep was deeper. My in the moment, there was a depth there, there was a connection there. My time in the word, just praying throughout the day, a joy, a peace, a non-anxiousness. My mind became sharper. My creativity started to rise week four or five and started dreaming again. Things that maybe had been dormant 'cause you're just running on that treadmill. And so for me, it's been kind of life changing. So now I've incorporated that in with my team, which we work on a lot of different things together, but my team and my family, we've incorporated that to where about May 20th to July 4th, I'm out. - Wow. So I wanna talk about the decompression process, that first 21 days. And I know you're new to this. I started taking July off back in 2016. So it's been eight years, nine years now of taking a whole month off. And that's as soon as I stepped out of the lead pastor role, I just thought it was good for me. And let me see, do I actually have a business, right? Like, or is it really reliant on me? All right, do I actually have a team or is it just me? And I find I get very agitated in the first week or so. - What did you experience in that first 21 days? - Guilt. - Mm-hmm. - Honestly, guilt. It won't survive without me. So I don't know if you could classify that as pride or arrogance, it won't survive without me. Something's gonna happen, catastrophic while I'm out. So my mind was running plays that weren't actually even real. My mind was going to assumptions that weren't actually really even validated. But it's just, there was even a level I think in the beginning of a little bit of insecurity. I think there's, but the biggest for me, because my identity issues, the biggest for me was, I would say more than anything was pure guilt. Like, you need to be there. You need to earn your keep. I'm earning my keep. I'm a producer. I've always been in my whole life. But yet it's never quite been enough. And so I think taking the time off is almost, it's like giving and it's like tithing. It's like, it's an exchange of trust. It's an exchange of trust where you're saying, God, I trust you. And it also is saying, I trust you, my team, that you can do this. And when I've found I've empowered my team to actually go and run and do this, there's a joy that they have both in what they're doing, but also that they're supporting me that I'm gonna come back refreshed. I'm gonna come back focused. I'm gonna come back with fresh ideas and new vision. And I'm gonna be probably a little bit nicer when I'm around that. (laughing) - So you're feeling guilt, you're struggling with identity. How were you present to your wife and to your environment in that first week or two? - Well, the first week, as she would say, she would say this to you, she would say, you know, Kerry, if Laura, my wife was here, she would say, you know, he's pretty tough, those first eight days. You know, I'm wondering if he's better off back in the office because there's only so many times I can clean something, fix something, reorganize something, go through. You know, I can rearrange my, the garage, my, I can rearrange my closet, in my closet, everything is color coded, seasons based, the right coat hangers, they're all spaced exactly the same. I know, I need therapy. - I'm laughing with, no, I'm laughing with you. This is, this is, we are the same person. Oh my gosh, I mean, I haven't got your business background, but like gosh, yeah, I know. I went nuts in July of 2024, that first week. I was like power washing, everything I was, I was doing so much. And eventually, Tony, my wife just looked at me and said, this is not fun. Like we're trying a staycation this year. So he was, this is not fun. And I'm like, well, I know, but I gotta get the stuff done. And I gotta, you know, and I gotta get this. And then last year, you know, we were traveling more. And so, you know, I'm just like, and at the end of eight days, I was kind of like, yeah, this isn't fun. What is wrong with me? But it's that, okay. So a period of like, it's a detox. It's a detox. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a detox for, it was a detox for me. So now that I've recognized it, one of the secret sauces for this year that was the best decision we ever made is we plan different trips. So we plan these outings rather than just staying at the house or go to our lake house and just confine to these things that we always do, go to new environments, disconnect. That helped me a ton. And maybe some of you are listening and it's like, well, man, look, I don't have the budget to go travel to New Zealand or whatever, but create a space or a moment where you can replenish. And it's an area sometimes that's new and fresh that doesn't, it doesn't create where you're having to produce something. Yeah, we went to Quebec City for a few days and got a beautiful Airbnb and it's not my house. So it's not my problem. It was beautiful, but like at my house, it's beautiful, but I see all the problems, you know, it's like, or this could be better or this needs to be reorganized. All right, what was the magic at day 21? What happened? For me is I woke up, honestly, there was a, it truly was within 24 to 48 hours of that that it's just, it's something that you hit a gear or a level of decompression that you're like, wow. It's almost like I had taken something that was a, not a downer, but something more like a, you know, I've had, I've had, whether you get injured, you have back spasms or whatever, but you take almost something that to make your body relax or a muscle relax and it was almost a little bit like that. And it was, you know, wasn't the narcotic type of feel, but it was, it was like, wow, okay. I'm enjoying my coffee, I'm reading the word, I'm having a conversation with my wife that actually went 47 minutes uninterrupted or undistracted. That's not normal. Like it's usually, you know, we're talking about diff, it was like deep conversation, it was a life conversation. It wasn't like to do conversation. It wasn't like a to do list or we've got to do this or problems, it was just great, rich conversation. Well, there was a deficit in that area and it showed me the deficits because I didn't realize how much I needed it until I was at the place of like, wow, of true, I would say this, a true sanctuary, a true peace, and it was an inward, not an outward. It wasn't a feeling or a moment of like, some outer thing making me feel good like a sporting event or a concert or something that I went to, I was entertained, this is not entertainment. This was something that happened inside of me that my soul was beginning to rest. - So you made it a discipline now or a decision that you're gonna take six weeks off every year? - Yes. - Decompressed. How did you deal with your phone? Because I agree, it's easy to leave the laptop behind, I didn't take mine to Quebec City, but your phone is kind of an everything thing. It's texting friends, it's Google mapping where you're going next, it's helping your dinner, open table for reservations, all that stuff. So I find it this really bizarre in-between world and yeah, you can remove social media, you can remove your email, but it's very hard for me as a leader to like totally disengage. What did you do with your phone during that? - We took a whole lot of pictures with our phone. So I had my phone all the time, but what we made fun moments, it's like we were almost on a honeymoon. And in some ways better, we were, I'm not gonna show you all the pictures 'cause some of them are just hilarious, but we're joking, we're cutting up, it's like we're sitting here as a 16 year olds in high school, just taking videos and little reels and we're joking with each other and we're having this amazing time laughing and cutting up that we haven't done in so long. And so we used our phone in that aspect. I tried to stay off of text, email, anything like that. I think some of the best things you can do is tell the people closest to you or the ones that you get the majority of incoming text, emails, communications, phone calls, any of that, let them know that you are completely off the grid and unless the house is burning down and the fireman can't save it, don't call me. And so that was a big portion of it was either team interaction or even Pastor Chris, my pastor, my best friend, also boss. And it's just like, he did not, I text him one time to ask him a question during that time. And he's like, hey, be glad that you're there and not here, enjoy it. He didn't even answer, he didn't even answer my question. And so, I think you train your environment, you train yourself first and then you train your environment. And I don't think you eliminate it, but I think you can definitely minimize it to a really healthy rhythm with your phone. - It got so quiet for me 'cause I did a very similar thing by the end of July that I'm like, okay, somebody text me. Like, you know, I do have friends where we were. - Yeah, you get lonely. - Yeah, you get a little bit lonely. Okay, that's really, really helpful. A hypothetical question, but you have had, you know, serial entrepreneur, numerous businesses, super driven, very successful. Let's say you started that at 30, not at 60. How would your leadership have been different? - One, I would have had, I started a business that was very, very successful in my late 20s that really revolutionized the way the automobile industry is today. And it was the first online platform to buy and sell automobiles in 1993 on the web. And so it's created-- - Wow, and '93, so it was like-- - '93, so it's not dial up notums, it's Netscape, it's browser, it's awful, screens painting the whole bit. So, but that business was very, very successful in a real short period of time. But later, they passed some laws that stopped me being able to do that business. But if the core of that business issue that the business failed was really having the character to handle the blessing that we're believing God for, because you need both character and competence. I was very competent, but my competence outweighed my character. And so for me, what I would tell myself is making sure that I have somebody as an upstream in my life. You see, you need an upstream and a downstream in your life. You get wisdom only from an upstream. But to get fulfillment, you've got to give that wisdom away to a downstream. See, I had downstreams in my life, but I wasn't really accountable. I wasn't really, my financial success made room for me in environments and people left me alone. 'Cause they said, "Oh, you know, wife's great, kids look great, house is great, finances and success are great." He must have it all together, which in really, in honestly, I was medicating the pain, really, of a lot of unfulfillment. And so I would tell myself, who's the upstream in your life? And what an upstream is, it's someone who has a life worth emulating, but it's a life that they have a marriage, solid marriage, kids, success in business, love Jesus. Have tremendous character. And so I would say find that person early on in my journey. The other thing is I would say to my 30-year-old self is excellence is the game changer. Having a spirit of excellence is a separator from everyone else. It's why Chick-fil-A kicks everybody's tail on one less day. They don't do it on the same time. They actually, it's almost comical. It's like God saying, yeah, my principles work. Look at those chicken, God's chicken business, is they're kicking everybody's tail by far on one less day. And so, but they have a spirit of excellence throughout the whole organization. Well, that being the case, if someone wants to be promoted, if someone wants to be successful, if someone wants to be set apart, excellence is that I think the greatest pastors, I think it's the greatest witness to the 21st century audience is a spirit of excellence. - And now a quick word from one of our partners. Today's episode is brought to you by preaching cheat sheet. A recent study showed that 46% of pastors say one of their biggest struggles is feeling like attendees don't absorb or use what they preach. Did you hear that? 46% of pastors feel that way. Look, I get it, okay, we've all been there. But if you feel this way more often than not, I would love to help. I have a free 10-step preaching cheat sheet that outlines you guessed at 10 simple steps to help you get the most out of your sermon prep. Each step ensures that your sermon and delivery are clear. In other words, you're ready to go before you get into the pulpit. You don't sit there at lunch going, ah, you know, could have done this, could have done that. Get that done first. Over 30,000 pastors have downloaded copy to help with their sermon prep. It's something I still use to this day, even after decades of preaching. I love filling out each of the steps as I write my sermon. And then I sit down to review the message the night before and I can go in with reasonable confidence that this message is gonna land or at least that I have done my best. So I'd love to get a copy for you for free. If you wanna be more confident on Sunday mornings, visit preaching cheat sheet.com. That's preaching cheat sheet.com to download your copy for free. And now back to the conversation. One of the things I wanna talk to you about, it's a bit of a recurring theme on this podcast, but, you know, I know you believe this lead, but often pastors don't know how to approach successful business leaders and successful business leaders aren't sure what to do with pastors. So we got both audiences listening to the show. Take us back to your digital car business, car sales online, you know, you're wildly successful in your late 20s, early 30s. You're making more money probably than you ever dreamed of. - Right. - What did that do to you, that early success? You said you had more confidence than character at the time, like give us a picture of 32 year old Lee. - A hundred miles an hour with my hair on fire, giving away 20% of my income. Very, very generous. I had, I have a spiritual gift, the Bible talks about, of generosity, the spiritual gift of giving Paul talks about Romans 12, six through eight. I did not know though, that many times I was giving really as a way to fill either an insecurity, avoid in my life. And so, again, you know, again, I was always the person that was validated by outcomes. I was validated by how I won. And that, in other words, I wasn't gonna, I wasn't a cocky person. I wasn't a braggadocious person. But boy, I'm gonna show you I'm gonna get it done. And he who has the most digits wins. That was kind of the mentality. - Not the biggest house, the most digits. - My in game was never, my in game was never about money, honestly. It was about trying to search for fulfillment. It was trying to, you know, 'cause it, when you get those things, you have planes and Ferraris and big houses and just all those things that the world can provide, you get 'em and we both know. You're gonna, you may build this massive dynasty, but God wants you to leave a legacy. There's a difference between dynasty and legacy. Dynasties are selfish, legacies are selfless. Dynasties always point to self in what I'm gonna get. And it's all about me where legacies are about others. And it's generational. So you look in these moments as God's taking me on this journey, honestly, he was protecting me for myself. And so when I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to fight them in that law, I didn't even know what lobbying and government relations was at that time in my life. I learned the hard way. As my dad said, Lee, you went to Harvard Business School, the hard way. But you see what happens when you go through those, you can either allow it to define you, which is what the world wants your setbacks to do, or what God wants is it to refine you. And I chose the latter. And so that experience that I went through took me through. And so every experience we go through, if you connect the dots, if you keep your hearts soft, God will use them to refine that entire situation, refine your life. And that's what he did with me. So I had these different ideas coming out of that loss that helped me create my second business, which is still very, very successful today. And actually, which is a national and part of a global company today in both the, it's a FinTech, it's a financial tech play, and it's owned by the largest compliance and information services company in the world today. And so that business, as it was built, came out of the ashes of that first business. So if I would have kept my heart hard, if I would have made myself a victim, if I would have sat there and demoted myself and say, you know what God, you really don't have that gift on my life. I just need to go work for somebody and just be a good employee somewhere. Where God's saying, no, no, no, no, no. Your Colossians 116, you're created by me, but you're created for me. And so don't quit, don't get discouraged. I'm using all those things to prepare you to be able to handle what's coming next. You're seeing it as a failure. I'm telling you, no, it's a setup for what's next. And so I learned a ton going, was in that environment and then learned a ton that took me into my next season that God had for me. - Do you know what is underneath your need to succeed, your drive, your, you know, he who has the most digits wins. Do you know what's underneath that? - Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I think early on, I didn't know. So I didn't know what, I didn't know how to fix it, address it until one day there's two things that happen. One day I just prayed and asked God, Lord, if there's anything in my life that's not pleasing to you, show me. Just show me, 'cause I don't want that in my life. So whatever's not pleasing to you, would you show me and then don't give me a desire, help me not to have a desire for it, whatever that is. And so I looked at my life and I saw these shortcomings, but I think at the end of it, it was, there was an insecurity and a need for validation, what was under the hood of that. So when I started having the mind of Christ and holding the thoughts and feelings and purposes of his heart, being a believer and not a doubter and hold fast to the confession of faith. And I walk by faith, my faith comes by hearing, by the word of God. Jesus is the author and developer of my faith. I tread upon surfaces, scorpions, and all of the power of the enemy. So it was the word of God that started renewing my mind and there was a confidence and a faith of knowing who I am. And then going through a business failure will help you get over your fear of man, or being man pleasing. 'Cause you go through that, it's a tough season. But all I had was all I needed and that was my wife, my pastor and my relationship with God. And that carried me through a season of restoration. And God used it for his glory. - What did you learn when that highly successful business failed? Don't believe your own press releases. I think your relationships really, really matter. And you're gonna find out really what relational inequities all about because when you're flying high and you're on the cover of magazines and you're really, really blowing and going as this innovator in the industry and all of a sudden it flip-flops. And you go through that, you're not getting many people calling you for lunch. You're not getting many people calling you to hang out and to do things and all of that. And so I learned in that season that the most important things to me are my wife and my family, my relationship with the Lord, relationship with people. It proves out covenant relationships. God's not schizophrenic. He doesn't bring people in the covenant to be ripped apart. If you're in covenant, there's something that happens, whether we get offended or whatever else. But at the core of it, I think I learned the lesson of what I call you have to be unoffendable. You have to be, if you're gonna be used by God in a great way and you as a pastor and you having this global ministry that you have now, you're seeing it on this, Matt, you're seeing it at such a large area. You know this as well as anybody. You're gonna have plenty of times to get offended. And offense is the, it's the cryptonite to fulfilling what God's created you to do. So I choose each and every day I'm gonna be unoffendable. Well, that person said this or this, that, and they are totally wrong, but you know what? God's my vindicator, I'm gonna be unoffendable. And he has proven that by me, when I take that stance, it allows him to move and he to vindicate and he to make room. And so I just exhale and say, I'm be unoffendable. God brings me in relationship with people that are covenant, divorce ain't an option. If you talk to Pastor Chris, he would tell you, you and Lee's divorce ain't an option. We're gonna work through it. We have disagreements. We have different things that, you know, we talk about and they're, you know, we discuss and, you know, a part of grow leader or what we're doing with the Kingdom Builders or just all the different things that we have going on. But at the end of the day, there's a covenant relationship. So it taught me that I was, could be valued and my relationship should be built, not on what I'm going to provide or do, but on who I am. I had my notes be unoffendable and I'm glad you raised it. Because that, I mean, there is probably more now to take offense at or to be offended than there was even 20 years ago, right? Like, so can you unpack that a little bit? Because I think there are a lot of hurt people listening and, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot in my own life over the last five years. Like we have an expression in English that says, you know, well, first of all, the scripture says, do not be easily offended. So when I'm wrestling through that, I thought, you know, even in English, we talk about taking offense. I take offense to what you said. And I thought, well, wait a minute, that's a deliberate action, right? If I take offense, I guess if I can take it, I can choose not to take offense. I can choose not to be offended. I thought that was a really interesting, you know, phrase as the English language developed that we take offense or choose not to. So what do you do when someone insults you or says, you know, well, he isn't who he says he is or not or not or not. Or whatever, how do you not let that get under your skin? - You know, earlier years, it would get under my skin and then over time, I think you just get seasoned. It's the great Billy Graham that said, you know, when they asked him, why don't you, you know, why don't you respond to your critics? And he simply said, well, my critics would never believe my response and my friends never required one. And I think that's just a powerful statement of how to handle. I'm not going to engage in things that don't add value to my life. I'm not going to sit there and pick, there's a book, I can't remember the name of it, but it basically talks about taking the bait of offense. And so when you take the bait of offense, all you're doing, it is the numb, it's self-sabotage. You are taking something that you're bringing into your life, a disease, a sickness. If you knew it was COVID, if you knew it was some form of terminal illness, which you just invite it and go take it and bring it into your house, absolutely not, you wouldn't do that. But that's how offense is, that's how bitterness is, is that we bring this in and so we have to make a choice each and every day. I'm not going to touch that. I'm not going to pick that up. I'm not going to get engaged in that. I'm not going to respond to that. 'Cause what's the real outcome or value? It just extends the issue rather than doing this saying, choices lead, feelings follow. I'm going to make a choice. This is how what I'm going to do. I may not feel like it 'cause I really want to punch them in the mouth. I'm not going to punch them in the mouth because I'm going to take the higher road. Pastor Chris and John Maxwell just wrote this book called The Jesus High Road Leader. Jesus the High Road Leader that's coming out, I think in January. And it's a book about learning how to take the high road and I was not good at taking the high road early on. I would fight you. And at the same time, I'm like, what real value does that bring? And so what I've found over the years is just let it go. It's like the song that my grandkids saying, "Let it go, let it go." You know, from Frozen. It's like, just, that's prophetic. Let it go. Don't pick it up. And what's going to happen is as you will create, this is really important. If you're consistent in it, in the beginning, you will create a discipline that it becomes very easy to do that no matter how bad the offense is. Because you have taught yourself, you've disciplined yourself to be able to navigate that. - I think that's really good advice. And I think it's a sign of maturity, right? You think about what maturity does, what maturity brings in your life. And the people I admire most who I would say have maturity are not the people who are like, "Well, let me tell you why you're wrong." You know, they're not those people. It's a goal for me. So let's go back to business leaders and church leaders. So when you were on the business side and you're still involved in business, but a lot of your time now goes onto the church side as well, what were some things you were looking for from your church? And I'm asking the question through the lens of, there's a lot of church leaders listening who are wondering how to serve their business leaders. So what are a couple of things that business leaders really need desire or should have from their church leaders? - Great, great, great question. I would say this as a business person who sat in a pew in the church, who asked themselves this question every Sunday, "Is this all there is for me?" - Wow. - I was the, I was one, if not the top two, and I'd say this with all human, but I was in the top two largest givers in our church. And I'm sitting here, my wife and I, and I'm looking at her going, I don't know if I even want this anymore. I'm saved, I know I'm going to heaven, but I don't fit in this box called the local church 'cause I'm building a business. So what happened was as I created this compartmentalization world that I had my business world and I had my church world. And the two, there was a tension that was established because the closer I got to the Lord, the more I wanted to do something amazing for him, because what he had done for me, and I wanted to give my life away, but I didn't fit quite in that small group model. I didn't fit quite in making every single church service, potluck, supper, youth night, whatever the fundraiser, I didn't make those things because I was busy building the business during the week. So I remember I was trying to close this bank. We had thousands of banks that used our technology. And so I was trying to close our first big fish. This was a whale, you would know as a household name bank. And so trying to close this bank on our technology and I missed three Sundays. We're in the south, down here in Alabama, Louisiana, you missed three Sundays, Gary, you're going to hell. - Exactly. - It's like, I guess you gave up on the faith, didn't you Lee? - Yeah, gave up on the faith, he's a backslider. And so I missed a couple of Sundays. Well, I'm in the foyer. True story, I'm in the foyer. My pastor is in the foyer and I'm hiding from him, avoiding from him. I'm avoiding him. I'm waiting for him to go into the sanctuary and then I'm going to go grab a seat 'cause I was embarrassed 'cause I had missed three Sundays. Watch this. He sees me and comes over to me. He says, "Hey man, where you been?" And I'm like, "Oh gosh." I said, "Pastor, I'm so sorry." I said, "I'm so sorry." I missed, and then it hit me. I was like, "I'm a grown man hiding from my pastor. What is wrong with me?" And so I said, "Pastor, I'm trying to close this deal. It's going to change the life of my family, my finances, my future." This is when the company was just starting and the second company. And he looked at me and he gut-checked me. Here he goes, "Are you kidding me Lee?" He goes, "You could do more for our church closing that deal than you ever could come into my mens' night." He said, "God has called you to the marketplace and do you know Lee, it's a holy calling." So business person, pastor, hear what I'm saying right now. This was life-changing for me. You want business people to go all in with you at your church. You've got to create a space to be able for them to onboard and on-ramp into your world. But it's got to be something in an ecosystem that is sustainable. And I'll get to that here in a second. So he basically affirmed me in my calling that day. I then started seeing my Monday through Friday as holy, as redemptive, as equally as important as the calling this on his life as a senior pastor. - Wow. - Because it's just different. Because then watch this, pastor set vision, business leaders set pace. Pastor set vision, business leaders have the ability to accelerate the vision, not just fund some of it, get your pet project building done. Pastors all the time, they focus on one project. Well, God's given them a whole vision to reach local, national, global missions and outreach to help next generation students education leadership. Yes, build that capital project campaign building, but you never stop being serving the community while you did that, but you stop talking about it. And so what happens is pastors need to create this, what we call a team. We call it, for many churches that I work with, we call it kingdom builders. Here at Highlands, we call it legacy team. It's irrelevant what you call it. You just need to have one, and this is why. God has called everyone to worship, but some people have a gift for it. That would be your worship team. God's called everyone to be generous, but some people have a gift for it. And that would be that business leader in the marketplace that has a gift in business to make money and influence, but yet they don't know their place inside the context of the local church. So you know what they do? They go create all these philanthropic ventures outside the church called noble philanthropy. It's good. I'm not disagreeing that it's good or bad. It's good, but the church is best equipped by God to not only deliver the physical needs of water, of helping the poor is rescuing girls out of the sex trade, all of that. 'Cause what we do is twofold and don't miss this. It's twofold. We handle the physical need and the spiritual need because everything we do is in Jesus name. And that is one of the massive differences between let's say a great NGO that's doing great work, trying to help folks and maybe a convoy of hope that's doing the same thing in disaster recovery, but they're doing it in Jesus name, which is the greater gift. The physical needs great solve that, but the spiritual need, why would we withhold that greater gift just to feed somebody? Let's do both. And so when you, if one has vision and one sets pace, if one has vision, one is can accelerate, that means that their destinies are intertwined. That's a big statement. So my destiny is tied to cresages. But I would say this, his destinies tied to me as a business leader. And though I have this anomaly kind of, I'm a little bit of a hybrid in our church, a little bit like area 51, you know, okay, he's absolutely. You know, but what it is is these business leaders are longing for this one thing. Outside of salvation, every single listener, every single person in the world is longing for this one thing. And that one thing is fulfillment. They're longing for fulfillment. They want to know that their lives matter. They want to know, but they just, it's like Christian business leaders I find, they know they're supposed to be on the team. They just don't know the position that they can actually play and play well. So they get apathetic, they draw back. And because we see them on a list that they gave and they're on an attendance and they may be in a small group, we think they're crushing it. I was that guy and I was the one asking myself, is this all there is? So let's help them. Yeah, let's help them connect to kingdom purpose, take them on a journey of discovering that God has hardwired them with spiritual gifts and then help them in that spiritual gifts discovery, then connect with that, not outside the church, but inside the church. So we would say this at highlands. We don't want people giving two highlands. We want them giving through highlands. But we see the local church as a kingdom mutual fund. Think about that a second. A mutual fund is a fund that's made up of multiple investments in various different things based upon risk tolerances and different categories. You got fund managers, but you invest in one fund and it produces this return or lack thereof. I see the local church like that. They're a kingdom mutual fund helping local missions and outreach prisons, dream centers. They're helping ministries that are around the U.S. and then the great commission around the world and then they're helping students and kids and children's ministry and college age and they're helping raise up leaders and they're building buildings in the real estate side of it. So you got all this diversity of investment producing and this is one of the most important things I think I would say today. It's producing outcomes, but those outcomes have to show pastor how you're winning because people want to win. They want to see the tangible difference being made. So you need to learn to speak the language of a business person. You pastor speak Mandarin, they speak Cantonese. You both are speaking Chinese, but they're completely different and you can understand one as a Chinese person and not the other. Well, pastors are speaking one dialect, business people speaking another. And here's the challenge. A business leader will never tell, they're not going to tell you they don't understand. They're just going to kind of like have a conversation and nod a little bit and then leave and either be halfway in or I guess I understood pastor, but it was a little spiritual and I mean, he goes and gets with God. I'm just trying to stay saved and not make dumb decisions and keep my life out the ditch and God's giving me a gift to make money is what I do dirty is making money a bad thing. Is it a redemptive thing? No man, it works a holy calling. And so, but a pastor has to help them. Number one, understand the value of their calling. Number two, create an ecosystem where they can be a part of the church family and be their ministry expression is their Monday through Friday in what they do for a living. Don't try to load them up and putting things on them that they can't sustain. You create the ecosystem, then you allow them to plug and play at the speed of their world, not the demands of your project. And what we saw at Highlands when I instituted what I took was what I was doing with kingdom builders. We instituted in the legacy team our giving has quadrupled over the last nine years. What, four times. That's huge. And it's a huge, and it's already a big number back then. But, and so there's lots of margin. Well, what is all that far? The outcome is not the money. The outcome's not, no, no, no, no. At the end of the day, pastor, you're helping that business leader fulfill what God created them to do. It's not about money. You just make it about money and giving and you don't explain the why and you give them a seat at the table. I'm not talking about governance or board or any of that. I'm talking about allowing them to have their place in their God-given lane. With your God-given lane, with Kerry's God-given lane and Lee's God-given lane. And then when you do that, you create a super highway to get a whole lot more done. But they don't know how to onboard into that. So you have to make that very clear at the church level through invitation, through discovery of we do a spiritual gifts assessment that's very comprehensive. So think Myers-Briggs and dis-profile, thrown all together, and then you wait the scores out and it points you to the area within and the church that you need to serve. Very effective. I think I can sing. Nobody's inviting me to be on their stage to sing 'cause I can't. Well, some people think they should be on a generosity team because they have the gift of giving, but it's their time. No, that's outreach. This team is giving a finances. And so we are very clear on how we onboard because the way you bring someone into something, you have to keep doing it to keep them connected to it. That can be good or bad. And so you wanna make sure that there's clear expectation of what the team does on the front end and then what you get is low maintenance, high impact. 'Cause people now who are hardwired by God, don't miss us. They're hardwired by God. With the gift of giving, Paul said in Romans 12, 68. Do you realize of all 27? I'm not a pastor of theologian, but the study that I've put to this and I've asked some very smart people, there's about 27 spiritual gifts in scripture. Of those spiritual gifts, all of them support the vision of the church moving forward, the body of Christ, the great commission, go and make disciples, the commands of Christ, all of that. All of them simply support that. The one gift that has the ability to accelerate it is generosity, but nobody talks about that. Most churches that we work with, they have a team for every single area to serve, except for generosity. It's because it's weird to them. They sit there and say, "Well, I don't wanna talk to make this about money." You're not. Legacy team and kingdom builders isn't about money. It's about helping those people with the gift of giving fulfill what God created them to do. Hence, what does that bring? Landing the plane, fulfillment, sustainability, acceleration, more lives changed, get debt free. So you have more margin to do more great things for the gospel. - So if you had to give the elevator pitch for building a legacy team, and I've had a chance to visit not Church of the Highlands, but some other large churches that have legacy teams, really inspiring to see. But I want you to talk to the pastor of a church of less than a thousand people who, let's say they have one and a quarter million dollar budget, but they realize there's so much more potential. There's so much more they wanna do. Give them the elevator pitch for what a legacy team could do to help them. - I think number one is you need to make sure you're not under-visioning your church. - But you know what, just not to interrupt you, but a lot of pastors, their vision is limited. They're just historically, we're a $200,000 church, we're a $700,000 church, we're a $2 million church. We can't quote, squeeze, air quotes, anything else out of our people. So therefore, my limit is automatically set by my resources. They haven't dreamed in ever. - But I would challenge him this. You asked me the question, so I'm gonna answer it very, very candidly. I think that you make a huge mistake when you reduce the vision, God's told you that you need to be doing to fit what you think people can handle. That's why 2/3 of all giving by Christians is done outside the church. That's a big number. And so it's not, it's sitting there. It's just not coming to you. And so that's why pastor, when you see the church, which my heartbeat is that church of 300 to 700. I love working with churches like that because there's so much unrealized potential. And it's not that things are mass broken. They're just little tweaks that are 10 degrees off and you're able to help them. We had one in prior Oklahoma and it's doubled in two years. It's doubled. - Wow. - And so it's massive growth and they're experiencing it 'cause they simply ran the play. And so when you have to make sure you're not undervisioning in the church. So if Pastor Chris was on this podcast, he would say, "Lee, what you helped me with was this." And we call this vision gap. And vision gap is simply this. Most pastors say, "Here's what we're gonna do church and here's what we have. The difference is the need." Makes sense. No, that's not what you wanna do. You wanna communicate, "Here's what we're gonna do church. Here's what we have." But here's what we could do if that is what is in your heart that you and your wife been talking about for five years as pastors, but you've never shared with the people. So when Pastor Chris went from 17 million in vision to 400 million in vision communicating it, we started getting, for the first time, since the inception of Highlands in year 15, we started getting seven figure checks. We started getting people said, "I wanna do a dream center in my town. I'll underwrite the whole thing." Well, no one had ever said part of the vision was doing dream centers in certain areas of Alabama. Well, that was in PC's heart. That's what we call Pastor Chris. It was in his heart. I said, "Well, PC start talking about it." He goes, "Man, 400 million dollars." I think I said, "No, let's start putting it out to the people who self-identified that they have the gift of giving. They're already hardwired for it." I'm tired of seeing the hospital get another 10 million dollar grant. How about the church get that 10 million dollars and let's go do a whole lot of good and hospitals are great, but it's like most philanthropy doesn't happen through the church. How many billion dollar gifts do you see happening in the church? Well, there's plenty of billionaires out there, but you just don't see them. And it's because I think it's an under-visioning thing. So, and then you have to trust God. You be faithful in the pursuit to trust God with the outcome. But you have to communicate clearly and consistently. It can't just be project to project. You have to create this portfolio of wins and outcomes and new vision. We call those lane reports. The vision of our church is broken up and every pastor on this podcast, the vision of your church is in five areas. Never six, it's five areas. - What are those five areas? - Yep, it's capital projects, brick and mortar, buildings, campuses, renovation. It's next generation, which is students, children's, college, ministry, high school ministry. It's local missions and outreach, prisons, dream centers. It would be whatever you're doing in your state, in your city. Then the fifth lane or the fourth lane is national. And national simply, where are you partnering, sending people in money and partnerships and making a difference outside your state could be with convoy of hopes, Samaritan's Purse, could be an organization you're partnering with. The fifth one is the global lane. And global is that great commission, it's to the other ends of the earth. So what is it, Judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth? - The ends of the earth, yeah. - The model of the five lanes, well each lane has a comprehensive report. It speaks the language of the business person. It's not churchy language. It's showing how we're winning because the winds justify more new vision getting done. So Pastor, if you can't share how you're winning at campus number one, don't talk about expanding multi-site campus number two. Show how you're winning at campus number one and the people will get behind investing in that campus number two because they want to win. We've got to be able to have a mechanism of communication that is super clear and super consistent. So we send five lane reports out every single four months. So January, May and September, there's no secret sauce to that by the way. Some of the churches we help with this, they send it quarterly. I would not do more frequent than that. And the reason why is there's not enough movement on those, because some of those are massive capital projects. So keep it at a minimum, we do it three times a year, but these lane reports show six things in them. And those six things are all the same in each of the lane reports. It's new vision, that's fluid, that can change. We believe we have three new campuses in these cities. We're believing God for it, that we feel God. So there, million dollars each, we go temporary or pop up and then we'll do permanent, but it's a million dollars to go temporary, pop up in that. So that's three million dollars worth of vision, one million for those each three. That can change, somebody gives property next week. Well, we were gonna go this, but now the vision's changed because there's an opportunity here. That's fluid and you can change it. Once the vision gets into play, then it moves to the second part, which is progress reports. Progress reports are updates on what used to be new vision that's now in play being built or getting done. It's not completed yet, okay? So you have new vision, progress reports, then you have vision gap, and I shared with you what vision gap was, and it's simply the delta between what we could do if and what we have. The fourth section is community and connection. And community and connection is here's ways that you can do things more than write a check. So we have mission strips, we go on as a team, we have small groups, we have mentor, mentee, we're upstream and downstreams are connecting together and it's just producing gold for us in fulfillment. And we have different opportunities of events where we do corporate gatherings and private lunches and it's this massive ecosystem. I'm running through it quick 'cause it takes, it usually takes me four hours to go through just all of this work. So I'm trying to touch on the high point. So the fifth section is wins, my favorite, because it's the metrics of life change that's happening in that lane. So for example, the projects lane would be salvation, baptisms, assimilation, small groups, it's the health of your church. I would ask every pastor, if you didn't get that report every Monday on what the offering was, attendance, baptism, salvation, could you run your church getting it every year on an annual report? Absolutely not. You'd fire whoever, you'd replace whoever you had to to make sure you got that information timely, accurately and consistently. And the reason being is you have to make decisions, don't miss this. You have to make decisions that are massive that are going to lead and position the church. Same thing with your business leaders. Second Corinthians 9, 7, a man should decide in his own heart what to give, never under compulsion for God loves a cheerful giver. How can I decide in my own heart what to give without getting great information way ahead of time so I can actually go pray and ask God what I should do? So when we celebrate as a corporate body that we do an annual report, that's a beautiful thing, celebrate it. But for this team of your legacy team, your business leaders, your kingdom builders, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. You need to communicate all throughout the year on what they're doing. And so when you do that, you create an, it's an information tool and it's a retention tool. So you keep them connected to the vision at the speed of their world. So watch this, we send our first lane reports out. This was April of 2015. Two hours later, I get a phone call. Now, I moved here. I spoke at Highlands, I didn't say that, but I spoke at Highlands, fell in love with it. I moved here, my whole family to volunteer at Highlands. Did that for a whole year. Pastor Chris said, it'll take you a year to figure this whole place out. And I'm like, I laughed. I said, PC, I'll get this in three weeks. He was right, I was arrogant. I had to repent. I said, it took me 11 months. And then after 11 months, he's like, he goes, I think you pray about coming on the team. Everybody thinks you're a pastor on staff. You're really leading our legacy team. And I was like, I'm having the time of my life. I mean, come on, I'll do this for the rest of my life. And so God positioned me in that setting. Well, so I'm in my volunteer role, junior apprentice pastor in the making. And I get a phone call two hours after we send the first reports and it's a guy, business leader. He said, hey, calls me son. Hey, son, I said, man, I'm 50 years old. I'm just like, this guy's calling me son. This ain't gonna fly well. And so he's like, I want to have lunch. I said, sure, I'd love to have lunch with you. He goes, today, I was like, well, it's 11 o'clock. And he's like, yeah, today, meet me at the restaurant, son. I want to talk to you. And I'm like, oh gosh, that's the pastor Chris. The pastor Chris is gonna fire me from this volunteer role. And so, cause I know he and I, I could just feel the tension coming. And so I get to the restaurant and carry, he had the reports printed out on the table. And I'm like, oh, Lord Jesus, please help me guard my tongue. Lord, please help me with this. He's gonna just take me to task on some stuff. So I was all prepared for the negative. He looked at me and he said, you know, son, I read these reports. I said, already, I said, wow, that's amazing. He said, you know, I support 37 organizations, seven figures a year outside the church. He was already a big giver at Highlands. He said, I've never been able to get information like this before from them. And he paused and he started to cry. He said, son, you're speaking my language. He said, I see if I give extra mounted equates at that many souls and I'm all about souls, son. I said, yes, sir, you can call me son now. I didn't say that, but that's what I thought. - In your house. - It's gonna be a good meeting. And so we're sitting there and he basically looked at me and he says, this is amazing. I didn't know we were doing all this at the church. I'm moving my giving through Highlands. I wanna give 100 here, 100 here, 100 here, 100 here, 100 here, 100 here, he already had a pre-written check for 500. - I was gonna say, you're not talking to 100 bucks. You're talking to 100,000. - 100,000. - Yeah. - So he said, he has a check pre-written for 500 grand. Before we ever sat down, he says, I wanna invest in souls, keep doing a great job, y'all keep doing it. Please keep me informed. This is amazing 'cause you're speaking my language. - Wow. - Pastor listening right now, do not miss that. You have to learn the language that resonates with those business people so it can connect to them so that you have them giving through your church, not just to it. And what we wanna see is giving redirected so that the body of Christ can accelerate. And we're seeing that in massive ways. But you've gotta take the initiative of setting the team. You've gotta have the right parameters. You've gotta have the right system, systems simply deliver the vision. But you've gotta have the right systems in place. You have to have the right people, but you have to be relentless with this. You have to over-communicate this. This is not one and done. It's also not a campaign or an event. This is forever. Think of them just like a worship team or an outreach team. They're just a team. They're not better than any other team. This isn't a country club with just rich people. We have 25-year-olds on the legacy team and we have 90-year-olds. Is if they simply say, I have the gift of giving, I'm committing to returning 10% of my gross income and giving over and above. That could be a widow with two mites over and above or it could be $2 billion. We don't get involved in that. It's simply those with the gift of giving. - That's really cool. So, you know, when we were in Cabo together and we were sitting around, I think it was a breakfast and you were sharing some of this. I just watched people leading very influential churches sitting around that breakfast table, taking notes faster than I think you were speaking. And I imagine that's happening. Do you have or could you make available a sample report that we could upload in the show notes or something like that? Even if it's like names blocked out or something like that? - Absolutely, absolutely. - That would be great. Because we'll put that in the show notes, Lee, because I think you're right, there's a gap between the way church leaders talk and the way business leaders talk. Can you give us like the nutshell version of some of the key differences between how a pastor would normally talk and what a business leader needs to hear? - Yeah, you know, business leaders want to see the tangible difference being made. And the challenge is they don't think they can ask a question. They never would challenge their pastor. They have too much respect and honor and love for them. They would, even if they disagree with them, they're not going to say anything, but the most part, unless they're on their way out. But if it's someone who's in a healthy relationship, they're not going to say anything. And so that makes it difficult as a pastor, because you think you're hitting on some points, but then they go give 25 million to the hospital right during a building campaign for the church. And you're like, whoa, they gave 50,000 to the church. - Yeah, I stood up there and I cast vision and I said, we're building this many square feet and it's this and we're going to have this much for seating capacity. And they still only gave 50k when they could have given a lot more. - Yep. - I think you have to connect with them. They want, I think you have, I have a phrase that I learned from a pastor a long time ago is you have to help them become rich where they're poor. They are poor in areas and you need to help them through a journey. I would even say this to a church that is, let's say it's a young church or a church that's 200 people. If you're listening and you're maybe three years or less, I wouldn't do a legacy team. As a pastor, I would identify five or six, eight key leaders in my church. And I would start a small group with that group. You have no equity in those relationships yet. You need to pour into them, ask nothing of them and you pour into them through somewhat of a small group and it's your small group. You're not delegating that, it's you. The greatest gift my pastors, I've had three pastors in my life, ones in heaven. I've had three pastors in my entire life. Their greatest single gift to me was allowing me access to their world. And I knew I didn't dominate their time. I was not a toxic needy person, but I knew them because if you want me all in, I gotta know you. If I want you all, we gotta know each other. And so God's called us not to compete against one another. He's called us to complete each other. And so you can set this ecosystem up by taking, you know, certain steps, being super intentional with it, but there's a system to it. Don't try to piecemeal this. Pastors make a huge mistake in trying to, they, well, I learned this from five different churches. So I'm gonna put this gumbo together and season it up and I'm gonna deliver it and it just doesn't hit. And what I would say to you is, is you can't defend what's not working. Number one, you can't defend that. Gotta stop defending it. If it's not working, you need to find the right systems and the right resources that are proven over the long haul. No gimmicks, it's reality. We're doing this together. There's this covenant of relationship that happens. So it's gonna require a little bit of vulnerability and openness from the pastor that, and it's gonna require that the business person, honestly, they have nothing to do with the vision. So you have to set those parameters and expectations up super clearly and we over communicate that. Like, when I say over communicate, I'm talking about to nauseam. 'Cause about the 15th time people start to get it. >> And pastors have usually moved on by then, naturally. >> Yes. >> They're like, I was bored, so we moved on. >> So you have stuck in the same result and you're sitting there spinning your wheels and you start trying these things that you read about, you heard about, but it doesn't have the depth. So because the sequence of steps you take to put a team like this together is everything. It's like algebra, it's like math. You didn't start, or I didn't start, let me just disclaimer. I didn't start with algebra two. I started with pre-algebra. Then it led to algebra one and then algebra two. If I miss those steps, I'm toast. Why is because each step builds on the others. Building a right legacy team is part of the simulation process, part of the spiritual gifts assessment process. It's what do you do on events? How do you communicate? How do you communicate a language that resonates with them? You asked about the reports, what do those things look like? What does it look like if I want to invite them to a private lunch with pastor? What should that feel and look like? What are people's next steps when they ask at different stages of their life, they're a high driving 30 year old 40 year old entrepreneur with no time, but then they're 60 and they got a lot of time? How do you plug and play these different people? 'Cause you know at the end of the day, and I'm not using this word yet, 'cause I've held off on it. This is discipleship in the purest form of your givers. It's discipling them. And it is, and I burnt the bridge behind me, I've given my life to this, that it is going to bring the most fulfillment, 'cause your business leaders just doing noble philanthropy aren't fulfilled. And you need to tell them the truth, that you hold the key that unlocks the door destiny for them. I know that's a bold statement, but they need you. I would say it this way, they will never fulfill the full potential that God has on their life without this partnership, or without having a pastor. Every pastor needs a pastor, but every business leader needs a pastor as well. - You know, it's a really compelling vision, and I totally see how it works. You know, having spent a bit of time around some legacy groups, because it's more than just please write another check, please write another check, it's a holistic vision. I remember having dinner with a group last year. And you know, it was, I think there was a plumber, there was a man and his wife who owned a law firm, et cetera, et cetera. And they just said, we just never thought of our day-to-day work as ministry. We just had no idea, we went to church on the weekend, kind of like you when you were younger, right? And you were hiding from your pastor. So there's a lot more, any final thoughts before, we're gonna give websites where people can learn a lot more, any final thoughts for church leaders, 'cause I think this is an awesome discussion and challenge. You would never pastor do a church service without a worship team. Stop doing it without a generosity team. You have, we have a responsibility to help these business leaders connect to kingdom purpose. If they don't connect to kingdom purpose, I think it's on our hands because they'll medicate the pain of unfulfillment through a lot of unhealthy behavior. And they need you, just like Saul needed Samuel, but he got cocky and arrogant because success will tell you and lie to you that you can be good at everything. And we need each other. That's something that's probably my greatest revelation in the last 15 years is how much I need other people in my life to help me on this journey of whatever God's called me to do. But I think next steps is you need to develop a team, you need to go and you need to try and figure, not just figure it out. There's plenty of resources that are out there. We do an intensive carry where we have a three hour intensive that actually gives churches the ability to train them through three hours intensive. And when they're done, they download a strategic plan that not only gives them every step that they need to take, but every template, every resource, every sample. And it truly is dot to dot, like when we were kids, you'd have a picture, go one, two, three, four, five, and you would hit all the dots. And it gave you this beautiful picture if you followed the dots correctly. And it's the same thing here. And so my son actually made me. He said, "Dad, you can't travel." That's not sustainable. You're going to help all these churches. He said, "Let's do a video intensive." And we actually did it in the studio and it's helping churches all over the world and it's all plug and play. And so I'll make sure that you get the resources of the sample for the Lane Report. And you can put that to the show notes as well. And if anybody's interested in the intensive, they can find out all that information and keep it going. - We'll put that all in the show notes. What's an easy website for people to go to? - They can go either my name, leedomang.com or probably better yet and easy as Kingdom Builders, plural Kingdom Builders.us has all of the resources there on site and written four books to the astonishment of my English teacher in school. But once more of a handbook of a weekly devotion, another is really what I would say the best book for the relationship between the pastor and business person and how that really really pans out. - And which book is that one? - It's called "Purls of the King." - Got it. - And then another book called "Stay in Your Lane." Don't see your Lane as a limitation. See it as an invitation on how God has created you. And then probably one of my favorite and the one that I'm right now most passionate about is the family meeting guide. And we created the family meeting based upon what I was seeing in the corporate world on Highland Worth families would get away and they would plan their family estates and plan what they wanted to do and all of that. And I'm sitting there going, I've invested millions of dollars in corporate events and planning for our team, for values, vision and mission. Never did that for my family. And so it created this family meeting guide which started out as a PowerPoint with a simple invitation for my kids to meet to set a hotel. We set vision, we set mission, we set values. We, as a collaborative, they expected dad to dictate and I wouldn't do it. I said, no, this is good, this is, we're gonna collaborate because I don't want compliant kids. I want kids that have had a heart change. I want kids that were part of the process and know the values and why. And then when the world comes calling the set values or change them, you're gonna say, you know what, I've tasted better. We're the domangs and this is what we value. So we have an affirmations exercise where we verbally look at each other and affirm them in their character trait areas and it's a powerful time. But created a roadmap for people to take their families on that. - Lee, I can't thank you enough. It's been a fascinating conversation that went in some surprising directions, beautiful directions and some very helpful directions. I wanna thank you so much. - No, thank you for all you do, Kara. You're a blessing to the body of Christ, brother. - Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Lee broke my brain and I'm not kidding. I've never seen so many lead pastors take out their pens and start writing as that breakfast meeting I was with Lee. It was great. So I wanted to bring that to you. If you want more, including details, go to karaenuhoff.com/episodes686 where you can get everything we talked about. Show notes, transcripts, links, everything we talked about. That's at karaenuhoff.com/episodes686. Also, check out 10 by 10. They're looking for partners and if you wanna join 130 organizations that are committed to reaching the next generation and helping them define their faith, go to 10by10.org/partners. That's T-E-N-X10.org/partners to learn more today about how you can partner with 10 by 10. And my church has partnered with Compassion for over a decade. How about yours? Go to compassion.com/kari and you can learn more today. Next episode, check the growth is back. We're gonna talk about secrecy and exposure and leadership. Also coming up, Henry Cloud, Carl Vaders, Pete Scazero, Will Gadera, Bob Goff, and a whole lot more. So one more thing for you. We've had so many people take us up on this offer. And if you haven't yet, check out my preaching cheat sheet. It is something that tens of thousands of leaders use every week. And what it is, it's a quick check on your message or your talk actually. You can use it for a business talk too before you deliver your message. Wouldn't you like to know whether you are going to connect or not? You can do that by going to preachingcheatcheat.com. It's super simple, really easy and it's totally free. Preachingcheatcheat.com, you can get started today. Thank you so much for listening. This is a real privilege to be able to do this with you. And I'll catch you next time on the podcast. In the meantime, I hope today's episode helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. [MUSIC PLAYING] (upbeat music)
