The art of leadership network. I'm so exhausted personally, professionally. I'm growing so skeptical. I feel like, when is the shoe going to drop, even with my best of best friends? Are they all eventually going to betray me? Is trust just the fool's game? Welcome to the Carry New Hoth Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in leadership. My guest is Lisa Turkers. It's so good to have her back. We're going to talk about trust. That's a major issue. At least it was for me in leadership. It probably is for you. Who can you trust? What are the signs that you can or cannot trust somebody? And a whole lot more. Also, I want to let you know, if you're a pastor and you're listening to this, hey, Pastor Appreciation Day coming up this weekend. I just want you to know how much me and my team appreciate everything you do. Leadership is hard. Pastoral ministry is harder. We've got a little giveaway happening on social media for you this weekend, but I just want to say how much I appreciate you. And hopefully bringing you interviews, conversations like this and all the other ones that we do is some encouragement, a little bit of help, along a difficult but very rewarding journey. And we also have some incredible partners who are in your corner. Make sure you check out the work that Glue and Convoy of Hope are doing. Whether it's organizing an event or supporting families in need, Convoy of Hope wants to find a way to help your church. Re-ignite its love for compassion ministry. Learn more at convoy.org/carry. And Glue wants to connect you with the people in your church with free texting from Glue. Visit glue.us at glo.us/freetexting and begin texting today. Well, Lisa Turkhurst is president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 ministry. She's the author of seven, count them seven New York Times bestsellers, including good boundaries and good buys, forgiving what you can't forget, and it's not supposed to be this way. And we are going to talk about the red flags that show you can't trust somebody, how to recover from betrayal, and why she didn't quit ministry and moved to Montana and become a waitress. She actually thought about it. You've gotten a skate clause too. Come on, let's be honest. But we want to keep you in leadership in the long haul. That's why we do what we do. Hey, make sure you check out Convoy of Hope. They want to help your church embody the compassionate heart of Christ. Over and over again, Convoy has watched God position his church in the middle of chaos, disaster and hardship to point people back to him. So even if you're a big church, you probably don't have the resources to be everywhere helping out with crisis after crisis, Convoy does. So whether it's organizing an event or supporting families in need, Convoy wants to find a way to partner with your church, learn more and support their work at convoy.org. That's convoy.org/carry. And also, I sat down recently with Glue. By now, you probably know that Glue offers a suite of free texting tools. But I hear leaders asking, well, how would I actually use texting in my church? So Brad Hill is here from Glue to give us some practical examples. Brad, is texting just a replacement for email or is there more? Well, that's a great place to start, Kerry, because what we're learning is that text messages get opened about double the rate that emails do. So that's a first reason that it's important to think about this in your communication strategy. But there are some really practical ways through the church year that you can use as we think about new visitors, for example. Getting every new visitor into a follow-up sequence on text is a great way to make sure no one falls through the cracks. Another example is holidays. You know, we think about Christmas and Easter. These are the two times a year that you probably have the most new people sitting in your service. And we saw huge success last Christmas asking visitors for prayer requests. Very simple. Just ask people, how can we pray for you? It can be a really powerful gateway to start a relationship with them and build trust. And then finally, new year planning. You know, kicking off 2025, thinking about text-based devotionals, prayer series, even an assessment to spur growth in your people all year long. And the great thing on Glue is we've got templates and resources and what we call workflows that anyone can pick up and start immediately saving you tons of time. If you want to learn more, you can visit glue.us/freetexting and begin texting today. That's g-l-o-o.us/freetexting and you can start texting today. And now my conversation with Lisa Turkerst. Lisa, it's good to chat again. Thank you so much, Carrie. I always love looking at my calendar and seeing the name Carrie Newhoff on my schedule. So today's a great day. Well, it's mutual. And like a lot of leaders, you have been through a lot over the last few years, a lot of really deep personal pain. You've had some painful friendships break up that you allude to in your new book, The Death of Your Marriage, Other Devastating Betrayals. I know that's a heavy place to start, but you're going to have the attention of every leader listening because if you've led for more than 10 minutes, you probably had a betrayal of trust. You probably had somebody that you counted on who let you down. And there's a lot of people listening to this podcast who are like, "I don't know if I can do it anymore." Can you just narrate some of the difficulties and heartbreaks you've been through over the last number of years to the level that you're comfortable disclosing? Absolutely. Well, I was just processing yesterday the layers of what happens when a betrayal occurs. And so I'll walk through these layers and then I'll kind of personalize it so you can see. So the first layer of a betrayal is when you know something's off, but you can't figure out what is off. You're having a discernment that there's like a warning signal, but the discernment isn't giving you details. And here's where it gets a little complicated for Christians is that we want to believe the best. And it almost feels biblical, like believe the best about this person, speak life into this person. Those things are really, really good, but it can be complicated when your heart wants to very much believe the best, but your head is picking up on warning signs. And so those two can come into conflict. So the first layer is that slow growth of a betrayal. Like you fear some things off, but you don't really really acknowledge all that you're seeing, or you just can't figure it out. The second layer is where it's the big shock. That's where either you've discovered that there's a betrayal or there's a disclosure that there's a betrayal. And so in my situation, there was a discovery. I always like to tell people discovery is worse than disclosure. Both of them, if someone discloses a betrayal, it's still shocking. But the discovery of a betrayal is almost doubly painful, because at least with a disclosure, if the person discloses what they've done, at least you have a starting point to say, hey, they didn't have to acknowledge what they've done. But the Lord must be working on their heart, and there must be enough humility there to where they're acknowledging that they recognize, I've done this. It's wrong. I have hurt you. There's a cost to this. And if they're approaching your humility, now I want to try to make it right, right? And at least it's relational if they disclose it. I'm coming to you to tell you about something rather than you discovering something on my phone or inbox or whatever. Exactly. In my situation, what made it really, really hard is there was only admission as far as every discovery I would make. So there was never any admission beyond the discovery. And it's impossible to build trust that keeps getting broken. And so there was like discovery, discovery, discovery, discovery. And so that was really hard. So the second layer of betrayal is the big shock, right? The third layer of betrayal is the reaction of the person who's betrayed you. If their reaction, like we just talked about, if their reaction is humble, then there's a much greater chance, a much more likely chance that that relationship can be repaired. If their response is immediate defensiveness, anger, blaming, shaming you, calling you crazy, denial, then that's a really harsh layer. It's further deepening the betrayal, right? Because it's pretty brutal when someone gaslights you and says, you saw this, but what you saw isn't what you really saw. And so therefore, the issue is that you're crazy. That's like a whole another level of deep betrayal. The fourth layer then is the reaction of other people. This can also determine how quickly we're going to heal from the betrayal or not. When you hear other people being sympathetic and they want to be a help, maybe by not adding their own commentary, but rather praying for you, supporting you, doing what needs to be done to help you, then that's great. But oftentimes, the reaction of other people is that they want to know why this happened so that it doesn't happen to them. And that was my experience. I had some lifelong friends that I thought would be by my side, no matter what. And there was one in particular when she found out that my ex-husband was having an affair on me. Her immediate response was, I think it's because you travel. And I think what was happening there is she wanted a reason. My husband cheated on me because I traveled and she doesn't travel. So therefore, that's a layer of assurance that this same thing won't happen to her. But that reaction caused me another layer of grief, another layer of great betrayal. So we've gone down now, we're at the fifth. The fifth layer of betrayal is why didn't I see this coming? It's almost like I feel like I betrayed myself. I should have seen this coming when they said that in the meeting, like imagine a pastor going through this, when they said that in the meeting, when they put conditions on their generous gift, when I saw them recruiting other people to support an initiative and using their influence in incorrect ways. Like I should have seen this coming. And so then you can almost have this other layer of betrayal. Like I betrayed myself. I felt the warning signs, but I let my heart override them time and time again. The sixth layer of betrayal, which is also something that I faced is feeling a little bit betrayed by God. Like God, you saw what was going on behind the scenes and you didn't stop it. And even now, it doesn't feel like you're addressing the sin that is causing me so much pain. Like it feels like the person who hurt me is getting away with it. And that can almost make you feel betrayed by God. So I went through all of those. And if you relate to any of those, whether it's a big trauma, trust, like a betrayal of infidelity in your marriage or like you mentioned, a pastor being betrayed by somebody that was in high up in leadership or a very significant person of their ministry. And then they somehow got the pastor fired or diminished the pastor's credibility. Those are big T trust issues. Or whether it's a smaller trust issue. Like somebody said they were going to do something and they just never quite followed through. So I just can't count on them. You know, that's still a betrayal. That's still a trust issue. They're just on different scopes. But sometimes those layers of betrayal are the same. You know, I wouldn't mind drilling into because we talked about the marriage challenges before and we're going to talk about them again. But you talked about the breakdown in friendships. And when you look at the loneliness of leaders, first of all, it's an epidemic. Secondly, last four or five years have made that way harder. And you know, there was one story anecdote, it's not an anecdote in the book where a quote friend of yours was running a conference. And the tagline for this marriage conference was something like, don't let what happened to Lisa's marriage happen to your marriage. And when I read that, I gasped. I like, oh my gosh, like there's someone you trusted as a friend who takes the breakdown, the death of your marriage and turns it into a marketing tool for a conference. By the way, listeners, I did Google it. I couldn't find it. So you're not going to find out who it was. But I mean, talk about that dynamic, like that, that is just staggering. And I'm afraid you're probably not the first and not the last to have something like that happen to you. So can you talk about that dynamics of a friendship or a colleague relational breakdown? Well, I absolutely can. Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So a relationship without trust is a relationship without vulnerability and depth. A relationship without trust is a relationship void of the kind of love we were meant to give and receive. You see, broken trust complicates every bits of the part of love that should be comforting to us. Like we should have people that we really believe we can count on. But here's the challenge. You know, I wish that I could say the promise of this book is I'm going to give you all the tools to make sure you never get your trust broken again. I cannot make that promise. All relationships carry risk with it. And the risk of relationships is not something that I can solve. As a matter of fact, I feel like the greater proposition I can make in this book is go ahead and count on that you will have your trust broken. Go ahead and count on the fact that people will let you down. And I'm going to give you the tools so that you have a different kind of inner stability to weather the trust issues that are naturally there. Look, statistics show that the average American lies four times a day. They're being deceitful four times a day. On average for men, it's a little higher, it's like six times a day. And women, it's a little less, maybe three times a day, but they smush those together and came up with four. So no wonder we're so skeptical. Also with our family of origin, with our experiences in the past past rejections we've gone through, no wonder we have trust issues, right? And so I just think it's important that we acknowledge those, but then we need the tools to help us better navigate those. You see, when we're in a relationship with a friend or a family member or a romantic relationship, whatever it is, the fabric of trust is made up of safety and connection. So we need connections that are safe. The problem is sometimes when we have our trust broken, we start to prioritize one or the other in extremes. So we may start to prioritize connection. Like we want this relationship so bad that we're willing to diminish our need for safety and overlook red flags and warning signs that we shouldn't overlook, because we are desperate for that connection. Other times, other people will take it into an opposite extreme. And this is what I do. I start to prioritize safety so high that I want to diminish all risk. Therefore, I diminish connection in those relationships. So you would draw, you, you, what do you do? Yeah, I withdraw or I stop sharing things that could make anything about what I share vulnerable. And I kind of make excuses to kind of keep start making that person more at arms length, because I don't want the closeness that carries the greatest risk. So therefore, in order to reduce the risk of getting hurt again, I diminish the closeness. I can relate to that. That would be my response to I don't, I don't lean into deeper connection. I'm like, all right, you're further away now than you used to be. Yeah. And of course, we do this, right? We don't want to get hurt and we do want connection in our relationships. And so that's why this gets so complicated. And one other fact that I'll share that I think really opened my eyes to why I cannot promise that you read this book and you're not going to get betrayed again. I cannot promise that you're not going to have your trust broken. In the Bible, there's the word batah, B-A-T-A-H. That word means trust. When the object of the trust, when batah is used and the object of trust is God in the Bible, it's always used in a positive sense. When batah is used and the context is trusting other people, trusting positions, power, possessions, batah is almost always used in a negative sense. Find that fascinating. So the goal of the book, no matter what kind of relationship we're talking about, and certainly friendships is a huge one, I think we have to go ahead and accept that the only way to create an inner stability is to recognize the trustworthiness of God. And I don't want to hyper-spiritualize this and say like, "Oh, trust God and everything will be okay." No, it's that we shouldn't put ultimate trust on other people. We should never have unconditional trust with other people because sometimes that means blind trust. And I think as Christians, sometimes we're like, "No, no, no, no. They're a Christian. I'm a Christian. I should absolutely trust them." Great. Then make sure that's wise trust. Make sure that's a person who has a proven track record that they've done what they say they're going to do. They are who they say they are, and they've shown that over time so that you can use wise trust and not blind trust. When you saw that conference tagline, what did you do? Well, they sent it to me to inform me that this is a campaign. So their team sent it to you or your team. Their team sent it to me to try to get me to endorse the campaign and they actually wanted me to verbally encourage people. Don't let what happened to my marriage happen to yours. Go to the conference. Oh, my gosh. And when I saw that, here's the thing. First of all, I was crushed by it. The second thing is I knew that tagline wasn't created in a vacuum by one person. There was a whole group of people at that organization that looked at this and thought it was okay. So then suddenly, I just didn't just feel betrayed by one person. I felt like an entire organization was coming against me. And that's a very daunting feeling. And so I was at first shocked. And then I thought, "How dare you?" And then I thought, "I want to talk to your legal department." Because did your legal department really approve this? Because if they did, then we've got bigger issues here. You can't take the worst tragedy that a human has ever faced and used it as a marketing tagline to draw people to your ministry. You can do that. But why in the world would you? And who would want to go to a conference where that was the marketing tagline? Right? So their legal department pulled it down before it ever ran. But just the fact that I saw it and knew that if I would have approved that, you would be able to Google it and find it because they would have used it. And that was really hard. I was shocked that I was livid whenever that. And I take it, that relationship probably died after that did it. Yes. And the sad thing is the relationship didn't have to die. This was a person who I had a friendship with. And they had done a lot of good. And I don't want to take the sum total of their entire ministry and park it into this one mistake. This wasn't a pattern of behavior. Everybody makes mistakes. It's different when this is a mistake and when this is a pattern of behavior. So the friendship didn't have to die. If they would have acknowledged the mistake and they would have understood and acknowledged the cost of what it did to me to see that in that email. And I think if there would have been a humble response in that moment, then I think that the relationship absolutely could have survived. But there was not a humble response. There was just more accusations, more questions, more, I guess more words spoken to me that made it really evident you have no clue what it feels like to walk through what I'm walking through. And so in that I was able to just acknowledge that people are down on what they're not up on. And they just didn't understand. But it also made me incredibly sensitive to never ever do that to somebody who's already been knocked down by circumstances from choices that weren't theirs. I didn't choose this. I didn't want this. It was placed on me and it was devastating to me. I'm so sorry that happened. And I don't want to jump way ahead, but you mentioned wise trust. So you didn't date for a couple of years after your marriage died. You dated a little bit, you found someone you've been married now for, well, over half a year. And what was it like, what was different? I mean, I can imagine, well, you said it in your book, you're like, I don't think I'm ever going to date again. I think I'm going to be alone. And I can see that being a very natural response, particularly in the face of betrayal, betrayal is different than death. Death is a morning, but it was sort of beyond your control. Betrayal, that's a whole other thing. And I'm thinking of it all the leaders who are tempted to quit because they've been betrayed numerous times who, you know, this is their third board. This is their fifth executive pastor. This is their whatever, whatever friend that they trusted. What does wise trust look like? What did it look like for you when you decided, all right, I'm going to go on a date. I might allow myself to fall in love. Maybe I'll get married. Like, what's what happened? Well, first, when I like I said, it took me a long time to get to the place where I was even willing to date. And here's the main reason why. I did not want to approach any new relationship with the a little bit of desperation for them to help step into my pain and help ease the ache up my pain. So in other words, I didn't want to date because I needed someone to help me get through the hardships of having been betrayed in the past. I wanted to be at a certain place where I could date someone and be freed up to want the right person without needing them to step in and help, like ease the ache of my healing process. And that there's a big difference when you step into a relationship, if you're desperate, then that's going to lead to some compromises because you just you want a connection with another person because you've hurt so bad from this other person. But one thing that my counselor helped me see is that my picker was broken. Now you have to be careful how you say that because that's how it feels, right? Like your ability to spot who was right for you was broken. And so I needed to spend two years working on my healing so that I wouldn't keep attracting people at my same level of health when I was at an unhealthy broken place. So I needed to spend that time to do the work to get healthy, to figure out all the effects that this had on me and what can I do to elevate my health because we will attract other people at our same level of health. And I didn't want to attract another unhealthy partner. I wanted to attract what was healthy. And sometimes it wasn't just about the brokenness inside of me. It's that I had lived in dysfunction for so long that dysfunction started to feel normal to me. And when dysfunction feels normal, we will attract other people who feel normal. But if dysfunction feels normal, then we're going to attract other people who will have the same kind of dysfunctional dance with us that we had before. So for those reasons, I wanted to recognize what is dysfunctional. And I needed to get to a place where I saw that dysfunction is not normal. There's an elevated sense of what normal is. And so I wanted to get to that place where I was attracting people who had done their work, people who had been through some stuff and had enough empathy to understand the hardships, but at the same time, who had spent time doing their healing work. So that's why those two years of no relationship, no dating, that was pretty crucial for me. Then when I did step into dating, I at first was so panicked, like I have to pick up on every red flag. So I felt like I was stepping into a date already assuming the worst about this person and feeling the pressure. I've got to, I've got to pick apart everything they say. And that was not, that was not going well for me. And so I decided instead, I would step into a date giving myself permission to not look for red flags. If they emerged, then acknowledge that that's a red flag. But the main priority for me in the date was yes, to learn a little bit about this other person. But I made it my goal every time I came home from a date to ask myself the question, what did I learn about me? What did I discover about what I need and what I want? And it really served me well. So therefore, I wasn't hunting for a husband. I was in search of for the first time being able to acknowledge what I wanted and what I needed and what I didn't want and what I didn't need. And learning about myself was really important. I did not know before I dated my now husband, I did not know how important it would be that this other person had conquered addictions. I would have said I need someone who's never struggled with addictions. And maybe that would have worked out beautifully too. But Chaz is 10 years sober. And I knew that he had the ability to conquer addictions that feel so scary to me. And he has built into his life patterns of behavior that are his toolbox to help regulate him when he gets dysregulated. When he gets upset about something, he's not turning to an addiction to help ease the ache of that pain. He has so many healthy coping mechanisms. And I had no idea that I needed that, but I learned that about myself when I started dating him. And now a quick word from one of our partners. Today's episode is brought to you by preaching cheat sheet. A recent study showed that 46% of pastors say one of their biggest struggles is feeling like attendees don't absorb or use what they preach. Did you hear that? 46% of pastors feel that way. Look, I get it. Okay, we've all been there. But if you feel this way more often than not, I would love to help. I have a free 10 step preaching cheat sheet that outlines you guessed at 10 simple steps to help you get the most out of your sermon prep. Each step ensures that your sermon and delivery are clear. In other words, you're ready to go before you get into the pulpit. You don't sit there at lunch going, you know, could have done this, could have done that. Get that done first. Over 30,000 pastors have downloaded copy to help with their sermon prep. It's something I still use to this day even after decades of preaching. I love filling out each of the steps as I write my sermon. And then I sit down to review the message the night before and I can go in with reasonable confidence that this message is going to land or at least that I have done my best. So, I'd love to get a copy for you for free. If you want to be more confident on Sunday mornings, visit preaching cheat sheet.com. That's preaching cheat sheet.com to download your copy for free. And now, back to the conversation. So, this is interesting. The broken picker thing, never heard about it, never thought about it, and had a lot flash through my eyes. And I think my picker has probably been broken at different points in my life where you end up and, you know, you hire the same kind of person, you make friends with the same kind of person, and it doesn't work out. And then you go back and you do it again. What are, and maybe I don't know how to answer this. So, I'm not sure where this is going, but what are some signs that your picker might be broken to use that term or that it needs some work or that it's not working out for you out of your own life or out of what you've learned about that principle in general? Yeah, such a good question. I think that there are several indicators, and I won't generalize this to other people, so I'm just going to personalize it to me. Here's some indications that my picker was broken, and I already alluded to one. I accepted certain dysfunctions as normal, and normal, those dysfunctions felt comfortable to me. And so, I needed to be able to step back and have a counselor help me identify. These things feel normal to you, but these are in fact, dysfunctions. So, let me give you an example of just a funny dysfunction. Sure, sure. So, my sister came to visit, and my sister and I, to give you a little background, the first half of our childhood, we were being raised by a single mom, and we were very, very, very poor. So, we didn't have money, and something would break at our house. We didn't have money to go hire a professional, so we would do what's called a work around. Like, we would figure out how to kind of rig it so it would kind of work, but it wasn't fixed. It was just a work around where we could kind of like make it work even though it wasn't ultimately fixed. And so, when you live in the dysfunction of we can't afford for something to get fixed, like, for a vast majority of your childhood, then as an adult, when I could afford to have things fixed, that same broken thought pattern, that same mentality would go, you know, it's going to be too expensive to get this fixed. So, just work around, like, figure out how to make it work. So, my sister comes to visit, and I had just had some renovations done, and somehow, I mean, this is going to sound unbelievable, but it is absolutely true. Somehow, the hot water heater and the back floodlights were connected. So, as long as the back floodlights were on, you would have hot water. But if somebody turned the back floodlights off, the hot water would go out. Now, I cannot explain why this is true, that it was true. And so, my sister goes upstairs, and she takes a shower, and somebody must have turned the back floodlights off. And so, she jumps out of the shower and yells down, "Lisa, something just happened to the hot water," to which I replied, "Sorry, I'll go turn the back floodlights back on." So, she gets out of the shower, she walks downstairs, she walks downstairs, she gets really close to my face, like, only a sister could. And she said, "Repeat to me what you said when I told you the hot water heater went out." And I said, "Oh, sorry." Like, if the floodlights get turned off, then the hot water heater goes out. So, I just needed to flip the switch back on. And she looked at me, she goes, "You know that's not normal, right?" Like, you know that that is not normal. And I said, "Oh, I know, I know." You see, I've been meaning to make a sign to put by that light switch, to say, "Don't turn this off, otherwise the hot water heater will go out." But I just hadn't had time. And she leaned in, she goes, "Okay, Lisa, now that's not only not normal, that is dysfunctional." Like, did it ever occur to you to actually get a professional out here to fix this? And it occurred to me, "No. No. My solution was to print a sign and live with this dysfunction." Okay. So, that's what I mean. I mean, that's a funny example, but we do this in relationships, too. And because we will attract people that feel comfortable to us, if dysfunction feels comfortable, then we may, in effect, be attracting people with those same dysfunctions, just because that's comfortable. But just because it's comfortable doesn't mean that it's good long term. That's fantastic. You know, we were sitting down with some really, really close friends a couple of weeks ago. And we were just talking about our families. And I mentioned my sisters, and he pointed out one of the sisters, he goes, "Oh, yeah, she's the normal one." I'm like, "So I'm abnormal." And he goes, "Well, you know, there's a lot, sometimes a little extreme, sometimes I'm like, "Yeah, you're right." You know? But you're right. We just become so accustomed to who we are that we stop noticing things. Okay. That's really helpful. Now, you spent some time with Dr. Amen, whose name has come up again and again and again in my life. In the last month or two, I got to track this down. What did you learn about what broken trust does to the body and to the brain? Because this is not just like, you know, have a good night's sleep. You'll get over it. This actually changes your brain chemistry, neural pathways. What does it do? Absolutely. Well, I wanted to have my brain scanned because I didn't want to just talk about this in theory as it relates to other people, or in theory as the research shows. But I wanted to personalize it. I really, really wanted to know. Like, I have walked through some serious betrayal. What effect did this have? What impact did this have on my brain? And so, Dr. Amen scanned my brain. And he put me through a battery of tests. And that's his real name, by the way. It's a cool name, but that's his real name. So he put me through a battery of tests so he could see my brain activity when I was at rest and when I was at work, when I felt calm and when I felt stressed. So it was a whole bunch of cognitive tests. And it was a lot and several scans of my brain. But when the results came back, he put up a picture of a healthy brain and a brain that you would expect, someone who has not walked through, some of what I've walked through, you would expect for there to be this level of help in the brain for a woman my age. Then he put up my brain. And he pointed out, he's like, Lisa, do you see these four lit up places in your brain? Those lit up places are anxiety centers. And those anxiety centers are lit up, not just when you're stressed or busy or working hard about, you know, working hard on things, but they stay lit up even when you're at rest. So you have ongoing anxiety, and they call these four centers when you see it, they form the shape of a diamond, they call it the trauma diamond. It's like, like, this is evidence of betrayal. This is evidence of having your trust, trust book, and this is evidence of, believe it or not, emotional abuse. And when I could see that trauma diamond, when I could see it with my very own eyes, I thought never again, am I going to shy away from using those words, emotional abuse? Because I could see the cause and the effect. I could see the cost to me. For example, the top part of the diamond that was lit up, that's the anxiety around certain traumas that happened. And it's where PTSD is often found. And boy, did I have that lit up? But the good news is, he said he could also see evidence that all the work I was doing, EMDR, which is a beautiful thing. If you've never heard of EMDR, highly recommend it. It sounds crazy, but it really does work. I have someone close to me who's been through it. I haven't been through it, but here are great things. A couple of people close to me. It's amazing. It's helping the two sides of the brain reconnect so you can better process things. So he said, I can see that you've done EMDR. I can see that you're doing your counseling work. I can see that you're serious about praying through these issues and working on forgiveness because he could see that there was evidence of that PTSD, but that it was getting better. And that filled me with hope. He also helped explain. There's another part of the trauma diamond where if that part is lit up, it's common for you to then misread cues from other people. And at first, when he said this, I'm like, no, I'm very socially aware. I feel like I can really read people, but here's where it plays out for me is that today, if we're on the interview, and you may do like this to look up at lights, but I could misread that when I'm putting it through a filter of having been betrayed and rejection, I could say, man, Carrie just thought what I just said sounded stupid. And it's like, no, Carrie heard a buzzing noise. And so he looked up at the light, right? And so we can misread cues by other people. Another part that was lit up was often what causes overthinking and catastrophic thinking. And that's made so much sense to me too, because I used to say, okay, it's like, I can pretty much guarantee you think of the worst case scenario, but worst case scenarios don't often happen. But I had been through so many worst case scenarios coming true that now catastrophic thinking was always factored in. And so I could see the impact that this betrayal trauma had had on me. And yeah, it was hard to receive that news, but it also helped me make sense of why I do certain things. And just making me aware of it is helping me know those are specific things I need to address and work on. So it proved to be very, very helpful. Yeah. And from what I understand, and again, I've been fairly recently introduced to it, you don't have brain surgery and it gets fixed. This is emotional work that you do, healing work you do. You reorient yourself through trauma, prayer, all of that stuff. And then your brain actually changes. And hopefully if you got a second scan, it would show progress in those areas. Yeah, you also healthy choices. You know, I mean, there's a lot of healthy choices. There are supplements you can take. It's good nutrition. It's exercise. I mean, all of that really does play into it too. Okay. No, that's good to know. But you know, the idea that this actually has an impact on how your brain functions and create sort of a loop, a negative spiral, is really, really fascinating. We're learning so much in that area. You mentioned this earlier, and I want to come back to it because I've heard this so many times in leadership and been guilty of it myself more so in years gone by than currently, but we over spiritualize. We're like, hey, we're Christians. We should trust everybody. Hey, Lisa, you should have just forgiven him. Hey, Lisa, you know, you just pray about that and everything will be okay. What is the problem with over spiritualizing it? Well, it's funny that you're bringing this up because I went to a therapy group and it was at a retreat. It's called on site and I had a Christian leader, but many of the people in my group weren't Christians or they had different beliefs than me. And it was really fascinating for me to step outside of the Christian bubble and see how other people think about things, how they process things. And so she had this one thing where she was like, okay, I want everybody to go around and name their coping mechanism because we're going to work on replacing unhealthy coping mechanisms with healthy ones. Well, as the people were going around the circle, I was like, oh, wow, these people have so many more choices about unhealthy coping mechanisms. And they have they have ways to numb their pain that like never were part of my thought process, right? And so, you know, they were talking about like alcohol and drugs and one gal was seriously addicted to Netflix, like she laid in her bed for two years and did nothing but watched Netflix, like she was drew from wife completely. You know, and there were all these things. And I was panicked as the circle was coming or like it was about to be my turn. And I thought, I don't have a coping mix mechanism. Maybe that's my problem. Like, I, I've never, I didn't turn to drinking. I didn't turn to drugs. I didn't turn to Netflix. And so I was like, do I make up something? Like, do I just say like cocaine? But then these people know about cocaine. So they're going to ask me a question. I'm not going to know the lingo. So then I'm going to be like, Oh, liar, you know, and so it got to me. And I was honest, I just said, I think my problem is I don't have a coping mechanism. And she said, yes, you do. My therapist was just that quick. Yes, you do. And I said, what is it? She said, you hyper spiritualize everything. So you leapfrog over your need for healing by just hyper spiritualizing it. And so you give yourself permission to deal with nothing because you just like say some Christian saying, and you just leapfrog over the work that needs to be done. And at first, it may be Matt, I was like, Oh, well, you don't understand how powerful God's word is, you know, it's the truth that said free, right? And yes, that is true. And it's also true that we need to work on our stuff. And the Bible is filled with people like creating me a new heart God. You know, there's this filled with people who need to face their sin and deal with their sin so that they can heal from their sin. And you know, I was very guilty of doing that. I didn't want to deal with my stuff. So I would hyper spiritualize it, slap a good Christian saying on it and move on. The problem is, I wasn't healed. I was pretending. And so that really made me aware of how crucial it is to make sure to fully acknowledge the truth sets us free. And to combine that with good practices of peeling back the layers of help that needs to be pursued. And yes, I was the one that was hurt. And and for a while, it made me kind of feel like I don't want to give anybody a reason why it was okay to betray me. So I don't want to present my issues. I don't want to work on my issues. But the thing I had to realize is me acknowledging that I have issues that need to be work on in no way, shape or form. Does that give the betrayer permission to have done what they did, right? It gives me an opportunity to be able to move forward in a healthy way. So that's when I knew, okay, I need to sit with some of these things. One of the most fascinating things I did to work on my issues is and to make sure I wasn't hyper spiritualizing and just leapfrogging over my need for healing is my counselor had me do this thing called the trauma egg. And so I got a big piece of white poster board and I drew an oval like egg shape. And then I divided that egg up into all these little square compartments. And then my counselor instructed me in each little square, draw a stick figure scene of any time that as a child, you felt abused, abandoned, rejected, hurt that there was any kind of like, like, oh man, I'm less than, right? And so it could be simple things like, oh, in the third grade, somebody made fun of me and told me I was stupid, you know, so it could be that. Or it could be like, yeah, my dad left our home and, you know, never looked back. It could be that my dad was, you know, in a mental institution. And I thought it was normal for kids to go visit their dad in a mental institution on Sundays. And then one day my sister went to school and everybody was talking about what they did for the weekend. And she kind of threw out there like, oh yeah, like we, of course, you know, we went to visit dad in the mental institution on Sunday. And for the first time, my sister and I realized that's not normal. Other kids weren't doing that. And so it's anytime there were these little betrayals or these little hurt rejection feeling like I'm abnormal in any way. And so then after I drew all my little stick figure scenes from childhood to present day, I stood in front of my counselor and I briefly told him the story of each picture. And I thought the exercise was just so I could get, get things out and so that he could get to know me better. But actually what he was looking for is a shame script. He was looking for phraseology that I would repeat over and over that indicated a broken belief system about myself. And after I did that exercise, my shame script was Lisa, you are an inconvenience to most people. So don't ask other people to do things for you because it'll be too much. And you'll run the risk of them rejecting you because nobody really wants to do anything to help you. So you can see if that is the narrative that's feeding so much of how I process what's happening to me, that narrative needs to be worked on. It's not so much the traumas that we go through that determine the after effects. It's the narrative we say to ourselves about the trauma and what's broken inside of us that invited that into our lives. It's that narrative that often determines how severely we're affected by the things we walk through. I would love to know because we've known each other for a number of years now and I've spent some time with you and your team and saw some of them when we were getting the interview set up and everything. What differences do you notice as you've gotten healthier and been through all of this? What is the team dynamic like now? How has that impacted your team that you work with as opposed to maybe the way things were six or seven years ago? Wow. Honestly, I would love for you at some point to do a round table and ask my team that question without me prepping them at all. I bet there's an impact, Lisa. I'm not the same leader I was 20 years ago. Thank goodness. I would love to hear their answers. So I say that just to say I'm making an assumption here because I've never asked that question. So here's what I hope that they would say is, Lisa, you're so much more aware and in touch with the real pain people are walking through. You're so much more compassionate. You are so much better about drawing healthy boundaries so that you recognize that you have limitations not because you're selfish, but because you're human. Maybe one of the biggest things they would say is that with God, I think it's made such a big difference in my life that I now believe in the goodness of God like I never have before. And out of speaking engagement recently, I took the stage and I felt prompted to ask this question, what would look different about your life if you really believed in the goodness of God? Like, how would your life change if you really believed in the goodness of God? And I think my team would say Lisa really believes in the goodness of God. Appreciate you sharing that. You got a whole chapter on control, right? That can be a response that you have as a leader. And I look back on me and there were so many things I was trying to control both in my family. And my life got divided into I feel like pre-burnout and post-burnout. I had a decade in leadership before burnout. And I was pretty nice but controlling leader. And it feels like the last 18 years have been a series of just learning to let go, learning to let go, learning to let go. I'm wondering, did any of those behaviors, those coping mechanisms, do you notice that they're gone now, that there were things that you tried to do? Like, often there's a lot that we do as a company and we're a really small team that I no longer fully understand. And I'm okay with that. And it seems to be going well. And that's because I trust people. And before I always had to my finger into everything that was true at home, that was true at work. And now I'm just learning, I'll make that in the present tense, to let go, to let go. Because as Craig Rochelle says, our friend, you know, you can have growth or you can have control, but you can't have both. So that's an example from my life. Are there like tangible behaviors that you noticed or your team might notice that are different as you continue on the healing journey? Yes. Well, let me complete, let me answer this question by helping to complete the last question. So I gave you all the positive things my team might say. Here's some of the negative things they might say. Like, whoa, Lisa is a pro at jumping into being able to verbalize worst case scenario. Like you give me a situation right now and I can name the worst case scenario before you can even blink, right? And so they will say like, okay, Lisa, we know why you're doing this, but let's don't jump to that extreme. Like, this probably isn't going to be worst case scenario in it today. And it may not be best case scenario today, but just for today, can we bring the thoughts back into the middle, right? And so there are things that my team is like, okay, we know why you're doing this, but also, let's not park our brain there, right? And so to get to this question now, I think as a team, as we move forward, I think we have to recognize that trust is going to require safety and connection. And so we want a safe environment where the connections within our team dynamic are being fed and safety is being instilled constantly. Because what we don't trust, we will try to control. And so if the trust starts to erode in our team dynamic, then it's only natural to try to take control because things feel out of control. Here's something profound that Joel Munamala, Dr. Joel Munamala, he works on my team. We work directly together all the time. Here's something that he said to me that I really found incredibly profound. He said, Lisa, sometimes if one of us is trying to take control, because what we don't trust, we try to control. Sometimes it's because we're trying to be responsible to make up for what we fear is an irresponsibility in someone else. But there's a big difference between being responsible, like being a faithful steward of this thing that's in front of us and taking control. And the quicker we know the difference, it's good to be responsible. And that means that we do what is within our ability to do. But where you tip over into trying to control is where you're not only doing what you know you can do, but you start attempting to do things that are beyond your ability to control. But you think you're going to try to control it anyways. But that's where you slip into manipulation. That's where you slip into being more severe with people's consequences. And that's where team dysfunction can really grow. I was really interested in your, are there 11 red flags associated with trust? Because some of them were, we're, you know, oh yeah, of course. And then some of them were like so subtle. Could you, I don't know that we have time for all 11, but could you pull a few maybe unlikely red flags that maybe a lot of us would just miss and go like, oh, that's a trust issue. This is present. I should be wary about the trust I put in an individual. Oh, absolutely. And here's the interesting thing about these red flags is not only are they red flags when we're stepping into a relationship that we need to look for, or maybe mid relationship. But if we examine these, these are also the roots of distrust in a relationship. So sometimes it's like, we say the statement like, oh, I don't trust you. And that can mean a lot of things. That can mean like, I don't trust you to pick something up at the grocery store. That's one level of I don't trust you. Or it could mean I don't trust that you really are who you say you are. That's a whole nother level of I don't trust you. But so it's important for us to take that feeling like I don't trust that person. And through this process of examining these red flags, we can actually discover roots of distrust and where it's coming from. And then we can assess how serious it is based on how much it impacts us. So let me give you a couple of them. Okay, well, red flag number one, incongruity. So this is one that's a little more obvious. And it's a big in my estimation. It's a very big deal. And incongruity is this person wants people to perceive them one way, but then they act in a completely different way. Their words don't match the way they actually live on a day to day basis. In other words, their insides don't match their outsides. Okay, so an example of this could be someone says that they're hard working. And yet at the same time, they don't have a job. And there's always an excuse why it's someone else's fault. They expect others to provide for them so they can live the lifestyle they desire. But yet they say like, Oh, I'm really hard to come in. You know, that incongruity makes people really doubtful. Like something's not matching up here. Another example is they say they're taking seriously their doctor's advice to eat healthy, but their credit card statement reveals a lot of trips to past food restaurants. There's like an incongruity there. Okay, let's look at another one. Let's look at inconsistency. This person makes you feel on edge because you never know what version of them you'll get on any given day. Sometimes they're kind, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes they act like they love you, but sometimes they seem cold and indifferent. I mean, we all have bad days sometimes, right? But this is more of a pattern of duality that confuses you and makes the relationship feel unstable. Wow. And that many times. Yeah, and that one, that one's really hard for me too, because I understand we all have bad days, but I don't want to see a pattern of duality in people. It almost is like, which pick a name, you know, which William is going to show up today, right? It's going to be happy William or angry William. And you know, you have no idea which one's going to show up. Yeah. And here's a couple of ways that this plays out in everyday life, this inconsistency. The stories they tell differ in truth and accuracy depending on the audience. That's hard, right? There's another one. Their mood or behavior changes drastically depending on their circumstance. They are easily enticed to act in unhealthy ways when things aren't going well for them. So it's like, yeah, they're super like biblical and their words reflect like a beautiful heart when things are going well. But when things don't get well, don't go well. And they're like poked and they're caught off guard a little bit. What spills out of their mouth is often a reflection of what's really stored up in their heart. Was there a red flag around reliability as well? I seem to remember that one you might have used a different term, but like you give someone a job and they just don't get it done. Yeah, there's a couple of them. One, there is incompetence. Now, incompetence is kind of tricky. This person says they're capable of doing something that you already know. They do not have the training experience or track record to carry out. They won't acknowledge their inability until it becomes a problem too big to deny. They try to compensate for their lack of ability with convincing conversations about their progress. But behind the scenes, things are not happening like they should be. Okay. Yeah, like the guy who wired up the backyard lights in the water heater in your house, if that was actually a contractor. Did you get trained in this or did you just watch a YouTube video and charge me a bunch of money? Okay. Here's another one. This is red flag number 10, irresponsibility. This person is reckless. They tend to gravitate toward doing something fun overtaking care business. It's not that they're necessarily spiteful, but they don't take things as seriously as they should. They aren't a good judge for how long something will take to accomplish. They're easily distracted from what's most important so they can enjoy whatever comes up in the moment. And irresponsibility, for me, the reason this red flag scares me so much is because ultimately, I'm afraid of looking irresponsible. I'm afraid of looking stupid. And if their actions are any kind of a reflection that this is how I would do things too, that's really hard for me to process. For example, they say that they're going to pay an important bill on time, but when you get the final notice and realize that they hadn't taken it seriously, it's not just that they were irresponsible. It said now it's making you look bad. Now it can affect your credit, right? Another one is they express a desire to put the kids to bed with you every night, but more times than not, they get caught up in watching a game. And instead, you do it alone over and over and over. So yeah, and you can see many scenarios how that would play out in a work environment. You know, all of those red flags, it reminds me, I heard this years ago from Andy Stanley, it's the simplest definition of trust I've ever heard. And I think it plays out. It's just Andy would say, trust is confidence. It's confidence. He said you were going to pay the bill. He said you got the job done. Confidence that the person who shows up is the same person every day. Confidence that they're not lying. You talked about a suitcase with roller wheels going away from you was a trigger for you, because it made you think, oh, no, oh, no, what's going to happen when I can't see my husband? Is this going to go bad? But it's that confidence knowing that, hey, even when we're a thousand miles away or on opposite sides of the world, I don't have to worry about you. Because what you say is what you do and what you do is what you say. Does that check out like just for an easy quick definition, confidence? Yeah, it really does because here's something else that I wrote in the book. My personal definition of healthy trust with another person is that I can count on them. Right. Exactly. Right. So that's a confidence, right? And then to break down an autopsy at even more, it's I know I want to be able to count on them to be who they say they are, to do what they say they're going to do, to show up with care and compassion, to tell the truth, and to use good judgment and biblical wisdom with their decisions. And so for me, I think it's really important for us to say, yeah, let's say trust is confidence, okay? But now you personally define confidence for what and what is it that you really need because of your own unique wiring, because of your story, your origin story, your family of origin story, because of past rejections you walk through, because of different scenarios that you've been in, because of that shame script, or that belief system you have to fight against about, because of your own insecurity, whatever it is, like make this personal to you and then talk about it. So I would love to have you speak to leaders who've had their trust shattered over and over and over again. I mean, that's been your personal experience through friendships, through a marriage that reconciled and then died, et cetera, et cetera. And yet here you are, trusting again, hoping again, believing again. What would you say to the leaders who are right on the edge going, I got a story to match yours, maybe worse, we're not playing that game, but you know what I mean, but who are who are hanging on by a thread right now and feel like they can't trust again, they can't hope again. What is something they could focus on or do right now to help write a different ending to that story rather than just quitting, throwing in the towel? Like you could have just, you know, and that's enough. Let me ask you this question, then we'll get to that question. Why didn't you just quit? I had that written down in my notes. Why didn't you just say, you know what, Proverbs 31, I'm done. I'm going to go sell insurance, or I'm going to open a coffee shop. I'm done. Why did you not? I'm sure you thought about it. Maybe you didn't. I would have thought about it. Oh, I absolutely did. My thing was I just want to move to Montana and become a waitress. I'm not sure why that was my go to statement, but I said it over and over and over. Not a bad plan. I've been to Montana. And I even said this to a leader. Like I was just saying, like I'm so exhausted personally, professionally. I'm growing so skeptical. I feel like when is the shoe going to drop even with my best of best friends? Like are they all eventually going to betray me? Is trust just the fool's game? You know, where everybody is going to wind up just being self-seeking, self-preserving, and who cares a flip about being honest? You know, I'd gotten to the place where I was quietly quitting on hope. That's what I was doing. Like I was going through the motions on the inside, but it's really hard to walk toward a future that you don't want. And that's that was a thing that was making me kind of quietly quit on hope. Hope can be the most brutal risk of all. Because to dare to hope means to make vulnerable the greatest desires you have, and potentially also making you face some of the greatest disappointments you have. And so I express to a leader, I'm tired. I think I just want to move to Montana and become a waitress. And he sat there for a minute and he goes, "Okay, that's an option for you." And then can I share with you what will happen if you do that? I was expecting him to say, "There are hundreds of people who won't hear your message." And God has set you up for ministry, you're made for this, like come on, you can do it. He didn't say any of that. He said, "Let me just share with you what will happen if you moved to Montana and become a waitress." He said, "You'll move to Montana. You'll become a waitress." And soon, you'll recognize that there are broken systems in the restaurant. So you're going to set up new systems and new strategies for the restaurant to become more effective. And then the district manager is going to be impressed by your systems and strategies. And they're going to promote you to district manager. When your district manager, you're going to set up systems and strategies and better communications for all the other restaurants in your area. And soon corporate's going to take notice. When corporate takes notice, they bring you to corporate office. And soon, you're going to be permitted into the executive leadership of that restaurant chain. And guess what? In that process, you're going to get hurt. You're going to be lied to. You're going to be betrayed. You are going to face the same situations that you're facing. So let's not move to Montana and become a waitress. Let's step into what God has called you to right now. And let's remember, there's still really good people in this world. And Lisa, don't live your life and reduce your life down to the limitations of living hurt. Don't do that. Those people that hurt you, like they hurt you, acknowledge that, but also recognize they don't have the power to make you quit. You have the power to make you quit. So you quit. Let it be because you decided to do that, not because you felt forced into it from the decisions of other people. No person is more powerful than God. No person can mess up. They can affect you. They can hurt you. But no person has the ability to override God's good plan for you. And that really got my attention. Yeah. I don't know who that was, but they did what they needed to do that day. And I don't know what else there is to say to leaders who are tempted to quit because you're exactly right, right? Like, I've had my fantasy was I was going to stack boxes at a warehouse. That was mine when I was in the ditch. And you're right. I never thought about that. I'd probably get promoted. And there'd be all the other issues. Wow, wow, Lisa, been so helpful, so good, so rich. Is there a final word any other thought you have that you want to share today before you wrap up? I would just say, you know, a lot of people like to say to me, Lisa, don't you feel like exhausted because you must have a target on your back? Like you being so visible in ministry, don't you think maybe like, that's part of what invites all this hurt and heartbreak into your life? And I hesitate when people say that because yes, there is spiritual warfare 100%. But I think that's giving the devil too much credit. Here's what I think. I think in God's great mercy and his great love for me, he saw all that I was going to walk through and how good of God to put me in a position 30 years ago, where he would make my full time job studying the Bible and how good of God to make sure that by the time I walk through the worst betrayal that I ever feared and then walk through, how good of God to have allowed me to have a lot in my bank to pull from. So, yeah, I'm sure I have a target on my back, but even more so, man, I serve a good God who put me in a position to grow and develop leadership skills and to learn how to be courageous in the face of hardship and to learn how to do it publicly because there were a lot of micro betrayals before I faced this one big betrayal. I don't know. Sometimes I think we give the devil too much credit and maybe we need to filter our thoughts by the fact that God is good. Therefore, trace his hand of faithfulness in your past and name how the goodness of God has surely played out then, and we'll play out again right now. Lisa, this has been a fascinating discussion. I always love our conversations. Thank you for your vulnerability, your transparency, and for sharing so personally with leaders today. I know you've been an encouragement to a lot of people. So, you got a brand new book, a great title, as always with you. I want to trust, book is called "I Want to Trust You, but I Don't." It's available everywhere, and if people want to find you online these days, where's a good place to stay current with you? Well, you'll find all kinds of shenanigans of Lisa Turkers, so wisdom bites and my adventures to goodwill stores. That's my new passionate hobby. I love going, but you can follow me along at Instagram, and on Instagram, I'm @LisaTurkers. So, just Google, "lysa, I'll come up and you'll find me." Lisa, until next time, thank you so much. You're so welcome, Carrie. Thank you. Well, there's a lot of wisdom and a lot of insight there. Those are insights I wish I had a lot earlier in leadership, but hey, better late than never right, and I know a lot of you are starting out on your leadership journey. Hey, I want to thank you so much. You let us know that this podcast means something to you on a weekly, if not daily basis, and I want to say thank you for that. I don't take it for granted, but if you enjoyed this episode, if it helped you, would you do a couple of things? Number one, share it with a friend. You can post it to social media, text your friend to link, and if you really enjoyed it, when you leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts, when you do that, helps the word get out, and when the word gets out, we get more listeners. We get to bring you the very best guests. That's how it works. Speaking of best guests, next episode, Malcolm Gladwell. We're going to talk about 25 years of the tipping point. He deconstructs his writing process and habits and a whole lot more, and make sure you check out Convoy of Hope and Glue. So whether you're trying to help families in need or respond to disaster relief, Convoy wants to find a way to partner with your church, to reignite a love in your congregation for compassion ministry, learn more at convoy.org/carry, and Glue wants to connect with the people in your church via free texting, courtesy of them. You can visit glue.us/free texting and begin texting today. That's spelled G-L-O-O dot U-S slash free texting. So, Malcolm Gladwell next episode, but also coming up, we've got Seth Godin, Henry Cloud, Pete Scazero. Man, that was a good one. Al Gordon and a whole lot more, and because you listen to the end, something free for you, we do that every week. This time, I want to highlight my preaching cheat sheet. Start transforming your preaching by visiting preachingcheat.com to get your copy for free. Tens of thousands of leaders use it every week, and basically it's simple. It's 10 questions that you can walk through before you deliver your message to know whether it's going to connect or not. You can go to preaching cheat sheet.com to download your copy. The link is also available in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening, everybody, and I hope our conversation today helped you identify and break some kind of growth barrier you're facing.
