The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
CNLP 088 – A Step By Step Guide to Breaking the 200 Attendance Barrier: An Interview with Martin Daland
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast, a podcast all about leadership, change, and personal growth. The goal? To help you lead like never before, in your church or in your business. And now your host, Carrie Newhoff. - Well, hey everybody, and welcome to episode 88 of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff, and I hope our time together today helps you lead like never before. I am really excited to introduce you to today's guest. His name is Martin Dalind, and like probably 80 to 90% of you, he's trying to do something that the vast majority of pastors, for whatever reason, and there actually are reasons, never seem to be able to do, which is to sustainably grow a congregation past the 200 attendance mark. And like my guest last week, Josh Pazold, Martin is somebody that I have mentored for the last couple of years. Actually, in Martin's case, about four years. As he's navigated this transition, I met him before he was a lead pastor. He got appointed interim, then all of a sudden he's a senior pastor. He's trying to get the church, beyond 200 and stable and healthy, and then it almost burned him out, but you know what? He's done it. And we just get on a call, like a Skype call every month or two, and we just kind of talk through the issues. And so Martin is gonna share with you in a very practical way, his journey, and how now, even though his church is almost, I think maybe double the size it was, when we first met, he has more time with his family, more time with his wife, a healthier staff, a healthier team, and a healthier culture, some bumps along the way, but man, he's done it. In a culture where very few churches ever make it past 200, 200's a mega church in Norway, and Martin's just done a great job, and I think you'll know just by listening to him for a few minutes what a great leader he is. So anyway, I'm excited about this and last week, and I'll tell you, you know, mentoring leaders, I get asked all the time, not quite every week, but sometimes it feels like every week or multiple times a week, I get asked, hey, can you mentor me? Man, I would love to say yes, but honestly, that's why I write a blog. If you've just been a podcast listener and you've never checked out the blog before, it's just my name, kerrynewhough.com. And two or three times a week, I post fresh content, and I hope it builds into you as a leader. And then of course, I sit down and have these kinds of conversations that I hope can teach literally thousands of leaders each week, something that sometimes I can sit down and do one-on-one as well. So I hope it's really practical. I would love to say yes every time somebody asks, but man, I usually keep two or three slots open. And right now, unfortunately, or fortunately, they're all filled, but there are vacancies from time to time. And I just hope that this really is a form of mentoring that helps you. I've got other ways I do that too. And one of them is actually through writing books. So my latest book, "Lasting Impact," has an exciting new resource that just got released a couple of weeks ago. It's a lasting impact team edition. And earlier this year, I shot eight professional quality videos that I hope can really help your team take these conversations seriously. It's one thing to read a book and go, man, we need to have the conversation. It's another thing to sit down with your board or your staff or your key volunteers and then actually have the conversation. And that's what the team edition is designed to do. It's eight videos, one video on how to have a conversation without blowing your church apart. And then secondly, one video per chapter in the book and the chapters cover issues like personal and church health and why people aren't attending church as often as they used to or how to create a healthy volunteer culture or why millennials are walking away from the church. All important conversations that will help your church grow, but I actually tee it up for 20 or 25 minutes. You can just press play, play that for your board and then jump into the conversation. So hopefully that makes that easier and it's a way of getting into more churches without having to completely abandon my family at a fraction of the cost of actually flying anybody in. So you can get it, the team edition is just $79. You can get more information at lastingimpactbook.com and you can actually just get the book too and you can get bundle deals. So we put some together for you. lastingimpactbook.com has all the information. And if you act now and buy the team edition and fill out the bonus form before May 31st, you'll get access to a private Facebook group that I will be frequenting from time to time over the summer as well. And you'll have the support of other people navigating the change. Also, if you happen to be in Australia, I'm there and would love to connect with you. I'm spending May in Australia. And this week, I start a five city tour and would love to connect with you. So I'm gonna be in Melbourne, Berwood, Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide between basically now this week and the end of the month. And you can get all the information at thinkorange.org.au. That's thinkorange.org.au. And if you're around, man, I would really, really love to connect. So with all that said, let's jump into my conversation with another one of my heroes. This is Martin Dalind from Norway. Well, it's a lot of personal fun to have Martin Dalind on the podcast today. Martin, you and I met, what? Almost four years ago now. No, three years ago, it was 2013. Wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was actually in Norway, my one and only time in Norway, working with church leaders, I spoke at a conference and you got the unfortunate duty of having to escort me around. Remember that? Yeah, yeah. That was great fun. Yeah, that was great fun. I remember being on a train for a long, long time with you. Yeah, and the bus. And the bus. That's right, the bus and the train. And then trying to figure out how quickly Norwegian currency disappears. Everything's expensive in your country. It is, it is really. They say, we're used to it because we live here, but it's expensive. Yeah. And so Martin and I really struck up a friendship that's continued over the last three years. And we usually do a Skype call once a month or so, don't we? Well, maybe every other month or that sort of thing. And your life has changed a lot since we met because you become a senior pastor. And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast, Martin, is I think the journey that you and I have narrated personally over the last three years is a journey that the vast majority of listeners are trying to navigate. Basically, you've done a successful job of taking over a position from someone else. You became the senior leader. You didn't start a church. You had to transition to church. It wasn't easy at all. The church was under 200, about 180 people back in 2012, 2013 when you started to step into leadership. And now you're seeing over 300 people on a Sunday morning. And so it's a very real story in the sense that that's where the vast majority of church leaders live, not in mega church territory, not in like, oh yeah, we launched 17 new campuses last month, you know? And you had to overcome a lot of obstacles. And what's really cool is you're doing it in a culture where a tiny fraction of the people actually attend church on a Sunday morning, right, Martin? Like it's so small. Because the statistic says that 4.9% in Norway is active Christians. That means that they go to church once a month. And yeah, that's not much. 1.9% go to church once a month, which qualifies you as active man, oh man. And, you know, not a well-funded church. And trying to do it in a cultural context that's different than the Bible Belt for sure, which I know we've got some international listeners, a lot of Australia and New Zealand, some Canadian listeners, some European listeners. But I think, you know, if you're, honestly, my good friend, Josh Gagnon, who's in New England, I mean, he would feel the same way. It's like it might as well be in another country because all the stuff that works in the Bible Belt doesn't seem to work up here. And like Josh, you've navigated it with some success. So that's a little bit of background. But Martin, you know, one of the things I really enjoy, I just, I love hanging out with you. And it's great to be able to connect like this. And I'm thrilled that we get to have a conversation with sort of all the listeners today. - Thank you. I'm so thrilled that you take your time to talk with me once a month. And when we, because we met also again in Atlanta at the Orange Conference and then you put your arm around me and you told me, you need to call me on Skype. And then that has been a real blessing for me and incredible. So I'm so thankful, Kerry, for what you have done for me and my ministry. - Well, I don't know. I mean, I just share all my mistakes with you. And you know, it's interesting because I get a lot of, you know, emails and messages, DM's from people who are like, man, will you mentor me? Will you mentor me? First of all, I don't think I'm a very good mentor. Secondly, I can only do it for a small number of people, you know, and you've been the one guy probably been able to track with the longest over the last few years. And you did come to Atlanta, which is amazing, you know? And have seen sort of how we do church on this side of the pond. And are trying to take a lot of the ideas, the best of the ideas and translate them into a very different culture. So, Martin, and by the way, you have the best accent. It's just the coolest thing. - Wow. - The Norwegian accent. And you speak English. It was fun speaking, I have spoken in Germany, I've spoken in Switzerland, I've spoken Norway to church leaders, but was nice in Norway is I could actually just speak English. And then there was like translation, what's that? - I just said, you're lucky that you can speak English in Norway, but, but. - Thank you for mentioning my accent. I have warmed up in advance to speaking English in my office, but strange when no one's listening. So. - I never have a problem. - We'll do our best. - No, you do great. So tell us, so you're a younger leader, you're in your 30s, and you're also navigating all of this while trying to raise a family, right? So tell us a bit about your family. - Well, I'm 34 years now, and I have a wife, and she is also 34, and we have three kids. It's medium, it's six months, and we have Benjamin, that's five, and Samuel, with eight. And, yeah. - So try to raise a family. You've got a newborn at home, an infinite home, and you're trying to transition to church, and it's growing like crazy in your context. That's a fun recipe for no sleep. - Yeah, and that's been what we have been talked a lot about, Kerry, how to navigate my family life, and my family responsibility, and the church responsibility. For me, the family is most important. But at the same time, I can't be at home and thinking about work, and be at work, and thinking about home. So I need to find a good balance, and that's a continually struggle for me, to find the right balance, and to... - We were working really hard on that a couple months ago, when we were talking, right? Because you were getting, almost you were worried you were getting burnt out. - Yeah, because I have, like the first two years of my job here in this church, it, I worked a lot, 78, 70, 80 hours a week, and I can do that for a period, but for in the long term, it's burning me out, so I needed to do some changes. And we managed that, so... - Well, in the burnout hit, it's interesting, because it hit when your church was just passing that 200 berry, right? When you're starting to hit 200 consistently, total attendance, and 250. And it's almost like there's no more hours in the day, right? So what are you gonna do as your church grows? - No, it's difficult because of the church, we have been through some struggles in our church before I started working, and we, it took a lot of time for me to handle all things happened at the same time, so. - Yeah, yeah, let's go back to that. And I mean, we've all got stories as leaders, and you did not plant this church, so let's rewind to 2012, 2013, and fill everybody in sort of on how you became a leader, and the position you got put in, and some of the initial challenges you had, because your church wasn't necessarily growing when you took it over. It wasn't like it was inevitably gonna be a church of 300, which again, in an Norwegian context, is a very, very large church. I mean, there are very few churches in Europe that have over 100 people, let alone 200, and certainly 300. And so take us back and tell us what it was like, how you got into leadership, and some of your initial challenges. - I've been working in the state for almost all my career, and then with children and family issues, and then we took a sabbatical year in 2000. - When you say working for the state, you mean like for the government? - For the government. - Yeah, so you weren't in ministry full-time? - No, no, I wasn't, just volunteering. And then we needed a break as a family, and so we moved to Spain for a year to work volunteer in the church there. And during that year, because I've been grown up in the Lutheran State Church, with the Christian family, and with all things that comes with that. And when we, when I moved away to study in Oslo, and I started to go to a Pentecostal church called Philadelphia Oslo, and then, and then I got some promptings from God to that, and he showed me some things that I, for my future, that I couldn't believe. And because I've always been like a shy, quiet guy, my wife, Maria, that I've known since my seventh grade. She said that when I thought she didn't hear me speak before I was 16 years, so I really-- - You were so quiet, you were an introvert. - Yeah, and I'm an introvert. And so when God showed me and/or prompted me with some things for my future, and I couldn't believe that it was going to be me, because I always looked up for other preachers and to evangelists and had my role models. So when we moved to Spain, it was, it was to have a year that we gave this year to God, and to say that we wanted to have a year with a good family time, and we wanted to do something for Christ. And during that year, our church here challenged me to when we get home, that I would take some responsibility in our church as a staff, and that would be children and family, responsibility for children and family work, and for some music, and also as a secretary to just fill up a 100% job. So when we got back, I finished my work in the government, and then I started working at church. What I didn't know, that when we were away that year, it has been developed a conflict in our church that between staff and the leading pastor and our board. And I didn't know, so when I got back, we, I don't know what you call it in English, but it was kind of like, it was messy. - Yeah, okay, we'll call it messy. - Yeah, we'll call it messy. And that was difficult for me, and four months into my new job here, I got the change responsibility to have, to take over this responsibility for the staff. - That's right, so you started as children and family, and then almost immediately in the midst of some conflict. Again, in a fairly small church, 180 by North American standards, you know, you got pushed into a more senior leadership role. - Yeah. - Was that the lead pastor at that time, or were you just sort of in charge of staff? - I was just in charge of the staff, and like the daily routines in church. - So almost what we would call an executive pastor type role. - Yeah, probably. - So you're in this role, and then tell us what happens next, because you never thought you'd end up being the senior pastor of a local church. - No, because it's messy. And after, I think it's five, six months, the leading pastor is quitting. - Wow. - And then we are without the leading pastor for a while, and I get the responsibility to do the, to continue with the leading of the staff and do the daily things. - So you become de facto, like the intern pastor at that point? - Yeah, yeah, kind of. And for January in 2015, I was officially, what do you say, officially, yeah. Officially the leading pastor of this church. - Wow. - So you've been at it just over a year when we're recording this, yeah. Wow, and through all that, you had to try to bring health. You had to try to navigate conflict with the board. You had to try to rescue the mission of the church. So like, tell me, Martin, like, what were some of the things you did in those early days that really helped? What were some things that you did? And how did you handle the challenges that you were facing? Because that's not, like if you're going to become a lead pastor of a church, that's not like a recipe of how to do it, right? Normally you would come in and, you know, that's not your dream. You don't dream like, oh, I hope I get into a horribly conflicted church and that there's this interim leadership period. And then by default, they make me the senior leader. Yeah, because Shan is, that's the city that I live in. It's a small city. We have like 53,000 people. Because my challenge is kind of like five things. It's my own personal challenges for me. And the staff that's been through a tough time, the congregation that also been through a really tough time. And also because this has implemented the domination that we were part of. And also the challenges with other pastors in the city that knows everyone. Right, so it's a small-town context. Yeah, it's been challenges on so many ways. I've been to your town. It is, it's like a big village, right? It's not a major city. No, so, so I needed to focus on myself and the staff. And also the congregation, that was kind of like the main things, but. Why did you start there? Let me just ask you, 'cause I think those are great instincts, but why did you say, okay, I got to focus on myself. I got to focus on the staff. That's really interesting. Because if I'm not okay, the staff will not be okay, and then the church will not be okay. And I had some, I had so many questions about my own role, my God's plan for me. You know, you go all the way from top to bottom. What's the meaning of life? What's the meaning with this, with the ministry? This is what, not what do I sign up for. So many things. Because to be a pastor in a local church, it's a family thing. So this, this inflicted my family, my wife. I slept bad, I thought about the church all the time. And so it had, it has a price. And for us, it had, it had, we came through it, but it had a price. So I was going to therapy and going like to talk to people and to sort it as for me. Because I needed to have my internal life in balance before I could lead the staff in a good way. - That is so wise. That is so wise to start there. And so many leaders, you know, that's a scary journey to look inside. But you know, I talk about that in, as you know, Martin lasting impact, my last book. Like there's a whole chapter on healthy leaders, produce healthy churches. And I think that was so smart for you to turn inside and to go, okay, this starts with me as a leader. And you went to counseling and you realized that, hey, as much as you didn't create the conflict that you could potentially make it worse. You didn't handle it right. - Yeah. - Wow. Okay, and then talk about the staff. So how did you rally a staff after, and again, we're not going to get into all kind of details, but wasn't like this little blip where it was just, oh, a small conflict for a month and it went away. This was some unhealth that had been festering for a while. It took what a year, year and a half to get through it. - Yeah. - Before there was even a leadership change. - Yeah, it was, that's right. Because we needed to rebuild our team. - Right. - And because I think that if we work good as a team, we can, we, that's the most important that I do to build my team and to build confidence, to build trust, to talk through what happened. Again and again and again. And to build trust and to, that we're building a culture that we could, we can, we criticize each other. We say good things to each other. We encourage each other, but also, but like the underlying is that we want the best for each other. - Yeah. - And that was a big, big job. - And is that, is that a culture change from the culture the staff was used to before? - I don't think it was that they have planned to do, to make the culture the opposite way. - Right. - But the things that happened have made it that way. So, so big, and it comes with different layers that we, that in surprising, surprisingly things for me. Suddenly I discover that, wow, this is, this has happened. Or this, I can, what do you say? I can hang this on something else. - Yeah, yeah. - The issue that you take up is not really the issue. The issue is something else. - Gotcha. - So we need to talk about this something else. - Yeah, in other words, they're upset about A, but the issue is an A, it's actually B, and you had to, you had to figure that out as a leader. And so you were really engineering a personal shift and then a culture shift at the same time. - Wow, so you got, you built a climate of trust. Now you listed five issues, let's go through them. So there's personal, then there's staff culture. What else did you tackle to get? - It's the congregation. - Yeah. - Because we, like, we have a congregation at the members level and then we have also, how many attends are weekly service. And at the members level, we are 450. - Yeah, and at attendance, we were 200, but our biggest church meeting, then it was over 200 people attending. - And by meeting, you mean service, right? - No, then I'm- - Oh, no, you mean like a congregational meeting? - In a congregational meeting. - And you had over 200 people show up at a congregational meeting. That happens when there's conflict, doesn't it? - Yeah. - So many people were, had their feelings hurt. And it was a lot of wounded people in the church. And at the same time, many people felt it was kind of like a fresh start. So you had like both and you need to handle both. - Okay, don't glance over that. How did you handle that? This is so huge because, I mean, in a lot of startups, there are no more congregational meetings, but I mean, the vast majority of our listeners have to deal with exactly what you're talking about. So as much as you can, tell us what you can about how you sort of affirmed the hurt that was in there and dealt with it, and then got the congregation to see it as a new beginning. - One thing that we did, we was in the preaching that we'd go, we went back to the basics, to who we are, who we are in Christ, what the church is for, and to do the basic for a long time in our preaching. And then also we, I had, and the staff had a lot of talks with people one to one, to a lot of key people. And when we talked with key people, the key people talked with other people, and we were like building trust. We had our church, every year we go away for a week and the whole church. - Yeah, like a retreat, like a retreat. And then we build, we build into people. Confident, and we listen, and we understand, understand their pain, understand their wounds. And then we set them, we put our arms around people, and slowly and slowly try to lead to the new direction. - So when you sat down with like an upset member, who was upset about all the conflict, or maybe that there were gonna be changes in your church, what would you say? What would you do, would you just listen? Would you try to redirect them? Like how did you approach those conversations? 'Cause obviously you had some success with that. - When people come to me and are upset, I try to understand why they are upset. And if I understand, I can say, I understand you're upset, and I understand that this is not what you wanted, and I totally understand. So what do we do about it? Because we want to go to that direction, and we gave people time. Because I think time is your friend, as I understand it says, time is your friend. - So the strange thing was that when we were in the middle, after this has ended, suddenly more people were attending the worship service. And many of the, not the elders, but the elder of the church, not the elder of the church. - But just the older folks who had been there. - Yeah, the older folks, yeah. - In our older generation, we had kind of like a mini revival, because a lot of key older people has got a new fire for Christ, and fire for the church, and they are like moving ahead, and they are taking new initiatives, making new activities, and today they have been over 60 people downstairs with a Bible and coffee. And because they are on fire about our church, a lot of new people, a lot of new children and young families, and they are also in the front, and that's a big, big help blessing for us as a staff. - You managed to see them as allies rather than enemies. - Yeah, because they are not our enemies, they are some of the keys. We have a lot of different kind of keys in our church, and the older people is a big, big, big key for us, because they have been, our church this year is 160 years old. - Yeah. - And some of these, I talked to a lady in our church, she has been a member in 82 years in our church, and she is one of our biggest, can you say, fans, or supporters? - So she thinks it's great. - Yes, yeah. - That's the thing that blew me away in my time, and I've been there a few times in Europe to work with church leaders, but I remember standing in Germany, and I was standing in a church where Luther and Calvin met, and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, memory in Europe goes back far more. I'm North of Toronto, I spent a lot of time in the US. I mean, we have a 200 year, 100 year memory, but I mean, gosh, Norway goes back a thousand years, right? - Yeah. - The church goes back a long, long time. I mean, to Luther. - Yeah. - Fascinating. Okay, so you turned the older generation into allies rather than enemies by empathy, and then did you have a clear vision right away, or you said you started to preach the basics? Who we are in Christ? What is the purpose of the church? Just some very basic rudimentary vision pieces. Do you think that helped them? - I do. Many years ago, or seven, eight years ago, we, in our church, we had a new vision and value work, where we stated a new vision and a new value. So we went to those basics. What do we want to do? Who are we? What are our values? What do we want to be known for? And I think that's the key to when we preach, that we preach unto the key values. - Great, so you didn't feel a need to change those values. You just wanted to lift them up and get the church back at them again. - Yeah. - Okay, that's good to know. All right, take us through the other things. So there was the congregation, and that's very, very wise the way you approached that. So what were some of the other things you had to navigate? - Because I was a new guy in our denomination. - Yeah. - And I needed to find my role. And I was so afraid to be like the bad guy that's making all the mess and getting all the blame. So I used also some time to work with our denomination about what happened, what we wanted to do, what we, how things will be forward. But that was not such a big, so big job for us. But I was a period a bit afraid for the other pastors in our city. - But I figured out that they are good guys. - Oh, you didn't know whether they would accept you or not. - So, but we meet, I think it's two, three times per semester, and that's a real blessing for us to be. - And you didn't come through the traditional route either, where you went straight into seminary at a high school and you didn't do any of that. You came from the business sector. - Yeah. - Wow. - So you're leading up, leading across? - Yeah. - And then was there a fifth, Martin, you talked about? - Yeah, that was the fifth. The domination challenge and the challenge with other pastors. - Oh, that's it, the other pastors, yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Let's talk a little bit about balancing your time. Let's talk a little bit about the burnout that you almost went through a couple of different times and how you navigated that. I know before we started recording, you were talking, you and I had a couple of sessions a few months ago where we just walked through like calendaring and so on. And you're in that beautiful space where you're actually working less and your church has never been larger ever. Explain how that happened. 'Cause most people are like, what does that actually happen? How does that happen? - Yeah, that's a big struggle and it's not easy at all. But I said that when I started the first two years, I worked 70 to 80 hours and that I cannot do that for a long period because it's not good for me, it's not good for my family. And while our church was growing, our church has always been like a pastor-centered church where everyone knows the pastor. - Yes. - And the pastor knows everyone. He goes on every, he do all the pastoral care. And so one of the things that I did was that I said, I will not do pastoral care. - I remember that conversation you and I had. - That's a tough one. So how did that go? - No, I do some pastoral care because we deliver like flowers every Christmas for a lot of people and this year I delivered two. So I do some and I do some funerals, but not many. And I do some house visits, but not many. Because we, I have given that away to another staff. - Wow. - And he has a team of volunteers under him that do all the visits to the hospitals and for the older generation. At the same time we have been working a lot with our small groups to do the pastoral care in the small groups. And that's a cultural change that we are in the middle of. So I hope it will be okay, but it's a struggle. And it's... - Who's a struggle for? Is it a struggle for you? Do you ever feel guilty? - Yeah, of course. I feel guilty all the time to say no. So it's mainly a conflict for me because I want to do good for everyone. But if I do good for everyone, I can't do what the church wants me to do to prepare preaching and to lead the staff and to, yeah, to do all those things. So, and they want me to be here a long term. - Right, and then I needed to change my calendar. So I say no to a lot of things. And that's hard for me. Of course, it's also hard for those who get the no. - Yeah, let's walk through that. Have you had angry emails or difficult conversations where people said, man, I was in the hospital and you just let me down like you didn't come and visit me? Or do people kind of understand, hey, our church is growing, you can't do this for everyone? How has that gone, Martin? - The main majority of our church understands that because we talk a lot about it, that we grow, we need to do the pastoral care in our small groups. And we explain why. Why is it better to do it in the small groups than to get me on a hospital and I need to change that to be sure that I have the right name before I get into the room. - I'm familiar with that. Do I actually attend our church? - Yeah. - And also because we have a lot of new people in our church. And right now we are building up a welcome group. - Okay. - That welcomes new people. We, all our members in our church has a responsibility to say hi to new people, but we have dedicated people who does that every Sunday. - So I like that. It's a greeting team, but everybody is responsible for being welcoming. Good idea. Okay, so keep going. So you got a welcoming team and most people are accepting the change when it comes to pastoral care. - Yeah, they do. - Well, that's good. And have you had some nasty people? - So much, but I have some. - Yeah, I'm surprised. But because I'm surprised, but it has been, it has been not so much noise about that. So I think maybe it's just me because I'm a kind, good guy who wants the best for everyone and I won't disappoint anyone. And then maybe I'm making a bigger problem than it really is. I don't know. Or maybe my congregation is really, really kind. But I don't think that's true because I think that when you see our church on a Sunday morning, you understand that the pastor can't go to visit everyone. The pastor can't, I can't know everyone in our church because it's obvious. - It's interesting how fear holds us back, you know? And I think you're drilling down on something where you were afraid to make that change and obviously you had the courage to make it. But often, I think Martin, what you're drilling at, which is so good, is that we're more afraid than we need to be or we're afraid of the wrong things, right? We're afraid of disappointing people but maybe we should be afraid of not reaching people. And because you were willing to navigate that and the congregation didn't flip out, you know, now you're seeing over 300 people. And again, back to that book, I know I've shared it with you. I've shared it with listeners. I've shared it on my blog over and over and over again. But how to break church growth barriers by Carl, George and Warren Bird. I mean, their argument, which I think to this day stands up is that you cannot do personal pastoral care in a church of more than 200 people if you're the lead pastor. That eventually, if you're gonna do it for everybody, your church is gonna stay small because you just don't have enough hours in the day. Or if you move past 200 to 300 and beyond sustainably, then there are gonna be, then you can't do it. You've gotta delegate. And I think groups is the most scalable model that we've got. That's so good. Yeah, also worked a lot with our elders, our board, not to micromanage the staff, to work with vision strategy and mission in the board. And that the staff do the staff things. And that also been a culture change for us. And something we work on continually, that the staff do the staff things and the elders don't micromanage. And that's also been the key, I think, to, can you say, free up the and to give responsibility for the staff to lead and to do what the staff needs to do. So the board doesn't get like bumping the road. That's really interesting because that was another thing we worked on in our monthly calls was getting your board because that's an issue now. It's gonna be even more of an issue when you're 400, 500 people. But the board had to be, and this is what's so interesting to me, Martin, the board had to be activist because I mean, you moved in after a period of conflict. Like if the board is in the weeds, they are down on all the details about the conflict with the last pastor, the transition, making you the leader, making you the interim leader, then making you the leader. And so it's amazing to me that you've been able to transition them so quickly to a place where they're like, no, now we're gonna focus on the 20, 30,000 foot view and we're gonna give you the authority to lead and the staff, the authority to lead. That's pretty cool. Has it been hard or easier than you thought? - It's been easier than I thought as well because a lot of the members of the board are not interested in what color we have on the rollup or on the page. They are interested to get the church moving. - Yeah, so it sounds like you've got some good visionary-type leaders. And how have you done it? Like, what did you just have one meeting where you said, hey, folks, we just gotta stop looking at the details and we gotta start, please give me the authority lead and I'll be accountable to you. Well, how did you do that? - This has been developed over time. - Okay. - And that we have in our board meetings, we have discussed, is this the thing for the board or is this for the staff? And we have been talking a lot about it. Then in we had a meeting, a weekend with our board and then I had prepared like a systematically document that I copied from you, actually. - I'm glad. - About the staff and board culture in our church. - Oh, the staff, was that the pushdown decision-making document? - Yes, pushdown decision-making. - Okay, I'll link to that in the show notes, by the way, it's a connection document and I'll put the PDF in the show notes. - Yeah, and we walked through that several times and we agree that that's the way we want to do it. And when we have like a document in the bottom, it's much easier because everyone agree, of course, it needs to be like that because we grow and we can't micromanage everything that we won't do it either because we have confidence in you that the staff does, what the staff needs to do. - I just want to stop and call an audible here. Like for all the leaders who are listening who are part of small churches, I hope you don't underestimate what Martin, what God has done through Martin, but what Martin's been able to accomplish in his leadership. The two biggest hurdles that keep a church small are looking to the pastor to do everything, including pastoral care and then getting a board to stop micromanaging. And the fact that you've navigated this, this is kind of like you are now on the open highway and we'll see how many people you can reach and there will be barriers in the future. Martin, can we talk a little bit about how you've restructured your time from being the guy who visited everybody to like you were running into a very practical problem which is your sermons were starting to happen on a Friday or Saturday because you were out of time, right? And then you totally rebooted how you did your time. - Yeah, my preachings are finished at last on the Thursday. - Wow, at the latest. So latest, they're done on Thursday, you've got two and a half clear days to Sunday. - Yeah, I have and I take my whole day on Saturday off. I do not do any church work on Saturday at all. - Now a year ago, that was not true. - No, yeah, that's true. - Let's talk about that because we did a couple of calls where we just worked really hard on your schedule. So let's talk about how you've made that transition and what shifted. - The shift was that I needed to have some, a lot of open spaces in my calendar. And I have Wednesday is an open day for me. Friday is an open day and Monday is kind of like my day off but I need to do a lot of things on Monday at home. To be, to have my head on the right spot on Tuesday morning. And on Tuesday morning, we have, I have a meeting with the staff and I meet one to one with some staff members. And on Thursday, I normally also do my preparations finished and then I have some meetings on the evening because I worked like three, four evenings in a week. - Yeah, and I said to my wife Maria that I, that's too much and yeah, she said it, it's too much. And so I work maximum two weeks, not two evenings in a week. - Wow, so you work two evenings a week. You've got a day and a half of meetings. Your sermon prep then happens Wednesday and Thursday. Am I right on that? - Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. - Okay, so you do a little bit of work on Monday but you're mostly at home trying to get grocery shopping done. - Yeah, clean my house. - Clean your house, all those things. And then Saturday is just a no ministry zone. - Yeah, that's a family day because our children is not in kindergarten and not in school. So we, Saturday is the holy day for me to be with my family. - Wow, and then you kind of head into Sunday fresh. - Yeah, I come really early on Sunday. We are service starts at 11 and I'm not really early. I'm here like between 8 and 8.30 in the morning on Sunday. - But relatively speaking, that's fairly early. And again, you're not trying to finish your sermon. It's already done. - I don't know, it's already done. - Wow. - Sometimes when, because this is kind of like the plan. - Right. - And sometimes the plan doesn't work. - We've all been there. - I think 80 and 90% of the weeks, it goes like this. And that's been, that's been a recent adjustment for you. Like you can measure it in months and it's brought a lot of freedom. How did you navigate that? So basically one of the things we talked about was moving to a fixed schedule. I've written a lot about that. I'll link to that in the show notes. Something that I did six or seven years ago and when we talked, you're like, okay, that's what I need. But the thing that I love about you Martin is you actually did it. Like all these things you've actually done as opposed to people who are like, you know, one day. What was the hardest thing about moving to a fixed schedule where you just decided, I'm not gonna meet with this person. I'm only gonna be out two nights a week. Saturday is sacred. Monday is a day where I'll write and get a bunch of stuff done and I'm only doing meetings on Tuesday and Thursday. What was the hardest part of making that transition? - If you want me to be honest, the hardest thing was that I didn't want people to think that I worked, that I didn't work too much. - Thank you for that. - We have all been there. You want, you don't wanna be seen as lazy. You want people to think that you are working super hard. - Yeah, and I work super hard, but I work super hard when I'm working. And when I'm off, I try to be off. And it's not easy and I fail again and again, but I really, really try to have my, to have a fixed scheduled. So my, yeah, so people need to wait to meet me. I say no a lot and it's been a really, really good thing for me because I know when I have time to my kids and to my wife, things are doing better in ministry. - You're a healthy leader, right? - Yeah, and the church wants me to be a healthy leader. And then I need to take the responsibility to say no and to clear my schedule. - And again, if people are cared for in groups, if your staff are leading their volunteer teams, there's way less need for you to meet one-on-one with people, again, because it's not scalable. So have you gotten like, again, we're talking honestly, have people given you pushback on your new calendar? Are they saying, hey, you used to work hard, but now you're lazy. I mean, have you gotten any of that? - No, no. - Because I think, again, almost all these struggles is in my own head. - And so true. - Yeah, it is. And I think that people talk about it and I think that they are angry or yeah, he does a lazy job, but that's only in my head because people see the church is growing. We have hired some new people and I have given a lot of my responsibility over to other leaders and they take the leader responsibility. And the funny thing is that I see that even if they don't do it as I would have done it, they probably do it better than I would. So and they're growing and yeah, so it's a good thing. - This is so good. This is so helpful and it's no surprise. I mean, you think about this. Your church, you've only been really a full year and a bit into your leadership. The church is almost doubled in size under your leadership. And you've just, like I said, you've cleared all the obstacles and now you're on the freeway and you'll see how many people you can reach, which is amazing. Let's talk just for a moment. Anything else you wanna share on sort of the transition? 'Cause then I wanna ask you one more question before we wrap up, Martin. Anything else about the changes that you've had to make to get your church past the almost unbreakable 200 barrier? Probably a lot of things, but if you have more questions, we can take that. - Okay, great. Well, let me ask you this, because you're in Norway. All right, now Norway's a beautiful country. It's fascinating. Lots of people feel an affinity to Canada and those of you who are listening in Minnesota, man, lots of Norwegians there, lots of Lutherans, so on and so forth. But I mean, you study orange, an organization we're both huge fans of. You can go to whatisorange.org for more information there. You study Andy Stanley. You study the church models in America. And then you try to bring some changes back to Norway. What translates and what doesn't translate for you into Norwegian culture? - It's difficult to answer. But I think we get inspired from Orange, from Will Creek, from North Point, we have used the deep and wide book from understanding to rebuild our worship service. So I think deep and wide is adaptable for Norwegian culture, I think, really. And we talk in series. - Right, so your sermons are done in series now? - That's a new thing. And we use a lot of energy and time on our worship service to make that a good experience for both for church people and for unchurch people. And we have a long way to go to be where we want to be. But I think we are in a good spot right now. - You're starting to move and that's why you've seen your kids' ministry explode and young families start to attend and so on. - And because our children' ministry is directly inspired from promised land in Willow Creek. - Yes. - So we have used a lot of material from there. We have translated it and used it in our church. - The Willow Creek Association continues to do great work, but I mean, they're one of the few bodies in Europe that is able to get people from different denominations together. I have so much, it was under Willow Creek actually that I was in Europe both times. And they have done an unbelievable job of like pulling people together, which is great. The Global Leadership Summit in Germany is always so huge and man, they do exceptional work in Europe. So you're like me, you've found a lot of it actually translates, doesn't it? - Yes, but we also need to translate something into our culture because the Norwegian culture is different than the American. - Give me an example, what are one or two things you're translating? - We have had a state church like for a thousand years that ended 2012, 75% of the Norwegian population is a member of the state Lutheran church. So we have a strong Lutheran tradition. - Did you hear what he just said? He said a thousand year state church that ended in 2012. That's nuts, 2012, that's crazy. So it's no longer funded by the taxpayer in other words, right? - Yeah, it is, but they are developing a new system. But yeah, it's not a state church anymore. - And you have never led a state church. Your church is a free church, correct? - It's a free church. - So in other words, people already give to the state church through their taxes, and then they have to give to your church if they attend it independently. - Yes, yeah, so that's a big difference. - So that's a big difference, I think. And I think also that I don't know if this is true, Kerry, but I think Norwegian thinks difference, different than the average American. - Tell me how, how do you think they think differently? - Because as we said, we think that Americans, they have a lot of people. We are 5.3 million people in all Norway. And everything is bigger in America. And I don't know, but the culture is different. - Right. - Maybe we are more, I think that the Christian faith has a different place in Norway than in America. I think that's something I just assume, because we are very secular in Norway. - Yes. - We, a few people attend church, few people have heard about that, have actually heard about Christ and what he has done, like the basics. It's been a major shift in Norway. The last-- - I don't know who Jesus is. - No, not really. And it's been a major shift the last 20, 30 years. And the church, people think that church is irrelevant. - In Norway, we have like nothing to offer. And we are like the darker guys that comes with the darkness and the bad news. So it's, we've had some difficult things. - I can only imagine. Martin, this has been fascinating. I know you've helped a lot of leaders today. Hey, if people wanna hear more about your church, we'll link to it, but where can they find you online? (laughing) - You know, I don't have a blog or a whole page or, so I just have my Facebook account. - Awesome. - And add me as a friend. You just type in my name and then you find me. - So it's Martin Dalland, D-A-L-A-N-D in Norway, right? And it's pronounced Shane, but isn't it spelled S-K-E-I-N? - Yeah. - So we would say Sky-E-N or skein. - Sky-E-N, yeah. - Sky-E-N, but you say Shane. - Shane, Shane. - You say it a lot better than I do. Martin, man, you have no idea how many people you helped today. Thank you so, so much. And I just counted a privilege to consider you a friend and to have you as a friend and just love being able to do this leadership together, man. - Thank you, Gary. - Man, I love that. Do you know only 5% of the population in Norway attends church and, you know, his church has almost doubled. He's got it sustainably past the 200 barrier. And if you want more information, you can just get some of the tips in the show notes. Just go to karaenuhoff.com/episode88. Hey, next week I am back with Brian Houston, the founder of Hillsong. We had a fascinating conversation face-to-face in Toronto when he was here recently. And man, I'll tell you, it was a great conversation. And I basically survey four decades of his leadership and talk about what's defined him as a leader and as a pastor, just a great conversation. You won't miss it if you subscribe. And you can do that for free by going to iTunes, Stitcher, Tune in Radio and hit the big old subscribe button. Thank you to everybody who leaves ratings and reviews. You guys are fantastic. Thank you so much. You make this journey so much more fun. And I'm back next Tuesday with Brian Houston, which will be fun. In the meantime, I hope this time today has helped you lead like never before. You've been listening to the karaenuhoff Leadership Podcast. Join us next time for more insights on leadership, change and personal growth to help you lead like never before. [MUSIC PLAYING] (upbeat music)